Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?

Subject: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: Stower
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 05:36 AM

I am researching (for performance) 'A Courtly New Ballad of the Princely Wooing of the fair maid of London, by King Edward', published as a broadsheet 1684-1686 and found here.

The song is about King Edward. The previous Edward to the broadside was Edward VI, reigned 1547-1553, the boy king, so it can't be him. And the next was Edward VII, who was not to reign until 1901, so it's not him.

So is the King Edward of the song a literary device, or might it be about the real antics of a European King Edward, married twice and not especially faithful? Or could King Edward be a pseudonym for King Charles II, famously a sexual profligate, making the song a statement that women should keep away from this predatory and unwholesome man?

Any suggestions or information would be very welcome.

Stower.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 07:40 AM

Could it be allegorical, about the succession of James II&VII?

If so I still can't make sense of it - religio-political allegories of the period are often hard to interpret.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 07:59 AM

He was a potato ; his real name was Murphy = Spud = Potato. Being somewhat louche,he was probably the first true "couch pototo".

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: Stower
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 08:03 AM

Thanks, Jack. No, I probably wouldn't be able to make sense of an allegorical song, if this is one, either.

bubblyrat, did you post to the right thread?

Any more?

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 08:32 AM

I think he means this:

http://www.lovepotatoes.co.uk/king-edward/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Edward_potato

The Wikipedia page says they were introduced in 1902 and named after King Edward I&VII.

I was once part of a group of musicians in a play about potato pickers in Midlothian. We formed a band afterwards. One name we considered using was "King Edward and the Pentland Squires".

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: GUEST,guest gutcher
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 08:45 AM

There certainly is a breed of potato called "King Edward".
Unfortunately it only dates from the early 20th C.
Probably so named as a joke at the expense of the then King Edward
due to his shape and/or his mental capacity.
Joe.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 08:50 AM

It doesnt have to be about a recent Edward, could have been one of the first four Edwards? The reference in the song to Rosamund and Henry refer to HenryII and his naughty doings in the 12th century.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: Stower
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 08:53 AM

OK, I think we've exhausted the potato debate.

Any more on the identity of the Edward in the song? Was there a 17th century European King Edward? I don't think so, but I defer who anyone who knows better. It's probably a sly reference to Charles II, I'm guessing.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 08:56 AM

It might have been Edward The Confuser, who used to bemuddle his enemies by laying a false trail of sliced and sauteed Maris Pipers, or as Nelson said " I see new chips !"

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: Stower
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 09:07 AM

bubblyrat, have you anything useful to contribute? Or have you already answered that?

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 09:09 AM

Edward I seems to be the only one with two wives. Edward II didnt trouble the ladies unduly, Edward III and Edward IV only had one queen apiece if I hacv read Wikipedia correctly.Edward V was a prince in the tower and didnt have time for wives. Edward VI likewise died young.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: Stower
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 09:15 AM

Thanks, Greg. All of which leads me to believe this was a European Edward of the 17th century or else a 'safe' way of writing a song about Charles II, a serial maker of half-royal bastards, if you'll excuse the (factually correct) language.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 09:29 AM

By 1684 nobody would have been making coded satirical songs about Charles II: he was dying, he had made himself at least reasonably acceptable to the majority of the British population, and his heir was the important issue.

The accession of James II&VII was hugely controversial, so he was a much more song-worthy subject. If the song encodes something about him (and you had to be circumspect or you'd get the sort of treatment Assange is currently getting), it must predate Monmouth and Argyll's attempted coup, as any satirist would have had to refer to it somehow.

I think the underlying message is that Protestant London is personated as the poor-but-honest maid, while James/Edward is shown as trying to seduce her with the excess and finery of Catholicism. Looking at other broadsides by the same authors might help to crack the code.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: Stower
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 09:39 AM

Jack, that's really helpful, thanks. Unfortunately, none of the broadsides were attributed to authors, so following the trail to an author's particular interests or views isn't possible. If the song is an analogy, I think your interpretation seems very plausible.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 09:39 AM

Sorry, Stower, --just trying to inject a little humour into what appears to be a stiflingly boring and extremely tedious , if not actually totally pointless, endeavour. I mean, if there was not, in fact, a King Edward,or not in the British Isles at any rate, in the Seventeenth century, then why ask in the first place ??
             However,if you find my attempts at levity distasteful, then I shall, of course, desist from further intrusions !!

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 09:52 AM

That one says "Printed for J. Clarke, W. Thackeray, and T. Passinger." - usually the author, editor, publisher and printer were the same person for that sort of literature.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: Stower
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 09:58 AM

(I have already posted the following and it disappeared - don't know why.)

bubbly, if you read my original post you'll see I wasn't asking a question I knew the answer to - that *would* be pointless! Knowing there was no 17th century English King Edward, I was asking if there was a European one who came to England and tried to have his way with English women. Jack's idea of an allegory of James II/VII and England may be nearer the mark - or else it's just a song to sing with no deeper meaning.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 09:59 AM

It's posssible that the composer wasn't writing about a certain historic person. It may be that he chose 'Edward' as a name that sounds vaguely royal. It may be that the the average person of the time didn't have enough education to name the real Edwards and when they had lived.

This would be similar to songs that use the name of a certain town because it happens to rhyme, rather than because that particular town is important historically.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 10:16 AM

That broadside was aimed at literate Londoners. They certainly would have known the order of the kings of England. Royal succession was an acute political problem of the time, blowing up in a series of civil wars a few years later.

The kind of furore over Obama's birth certificate that some people in the US have worked themselves up into is very much like a 17th century English royal legitimacy dispute - imagine trying to make sense of that in 300 years' time.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: Acorn4
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 10:18 AM

Possibly go back to pre 1066 - Edward the Elder(874-924), son of Alfred the Great, married two or possibly three times and had other liaisons.

It was common practice for young maidens to resist unwelcome royal advances by taking sanctuary in a nunnery.


There doesn't seem to be anything in his Wikipedia entry which means it couldn't be him whereas there does seem to be with all the other suspects!

Guilty your Honour? or just circumstantial evidence?

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 10:56 AM

Was James II's second name Edward, by any chance - his grandson's certainly was?
James II certainly had two wives, and a widely roving eye.

"Printed by J. Clarke..... etc - Jeremiah Clarke??

More than you need to know here:
http://www.britroyals.com/kings.asp?id=james2

wherein it does not give a second name, which seems a mite unlikely given royal habits of accumulating forenames beyond reason.

HTH
Paws

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 10:59 AM

There is a little program for PCs called Simple Family Tree which lets you enter your ancestors....but, as a demo (see that link, part way down), you can download the complex relationships of The Kings of Europe and browse thru it. Fascinating to see all those names with the lines drawn between them.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: GUEST,Allan Con
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 12:21 PM

"wherein it does not give a second name, which seems a mite unlikely given royal habits of accumulating forenames beyond reason."

According to this biography he was baptised James Stuart. No second names.

http://www.archontology.org/nations/uk/scotland/stuart2/james7.php

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: Snuffy
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 12:42 PM

How about Edward IV? According to Wikipedia -

Edward had numerous mistresses, the best known of whom was Elizabeth Shore, known as Jane Shore. He reportedly had several illegitimate children:

By Lady Eleanor Talbot: Edward de Wigmore (d. 1468). Reportedly died as an infant along with his mother.

By Elizabeth Lucy or Elizabeth Waite. Elizabeth Plantagenet. Born circa 1464, married Sir Thomas Lumley in 1477. Arthur Plantagenet, 1st Viscount Lisle (1460s/1470s – 3 March 1542).

By unknown mother: (Recent speculations suggests them as children by Lucy or Waite.) Grace Plantagenet. She is known to have been present at the funeral of her stepmother Elizabeth Woodville in 1492. Mary Plantagenet, married Henry Harman of Ellam, son of Thomas and Elizabeth Harman and widower of Agness. A daughter said to have been the first wife of John Tuchet, 6th Baron Audley.

Perkin Warbeck, an impostor claimant to the English throne, who claimed to be Edward's son Richard of Shrewsbury, reportedly resembled Edward. There is unconfirmed speculation that Warbeck could have been another of Edward's illegitimate sons.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 12:44 PM

Looking at some of Passinger's other ballads on that site, this one comes up early in the search, a ballad on Jane Shore, mistress of Edward IV:

http://ebba.english.ucsb.edu/ballad/20229/xml

I still think it's allegorical, but the allegory may be anchored on her story and that of Edward's other mistresses, which has been recycled for sensation value to the present day ("Hello!" magazine would have loved her).

Jane Shore

Rowe made a play about her in 1714, at which point Britain had just lost Queen Anne, a politically manipulative dyke who made no friends at all for the royal family, so digging up a 200-year-old scandal about them gave the public just what it wanted.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 12:49 PM

More Passinger: he had another ballad on Henry and Rosamond:

http://ebba.english.ucsb.edu/ballad/20235/image

so the allusion to that story in the Edward dialogue wwas intended to sell another sheet in his catalogue. Clever marketing.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 02:25 PM

Edward IV looks promising. I didn't spot all that stuff in my quick glance. But only one wife, I think.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 02:30 PM

Jack,
In ballad selling marketing was very important so you are very likely right. Not all ballads that mention people are about real people, accurate or true.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 03:18 PM

Considering how dangerous it could be to criticize the government, I'm not surprised the song refers to a ill-defined and long-dead king not of the current dynasty.

I have read something about torture and punishment in those days, and me, I would have named the king Canute, maybe, or Aethelred.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 03:46 PM

Edward lV seems unlikely, as he only married Elizabeth Woodville, and she wasn't from London.

I still think Edward the Elder is the main suspect here.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 03:51 PM

Is it possible that there was a Pretender in exile among the French at that time?

Also, to throw another spoke in, Jane Shore and her goldsmith husband were quite likely cryptoJudaic, as, even then, there was a tendency among England's Jews to work in the Jewelry trades.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: GUEST,Hilary
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 03:51 PM

Is this broadside current news? Couldn't it be historical and refer to a previous Edward?

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: Mrs Wickham
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 04:42 PM

My guess would be if this is based on an actual monarch it would be Edward IV. Although technically he was only married once there was an alleged pre-contract with Eleanor Talbot, which was regarded as tantamount to marriage at the time. He was notoriously promiscuous, but apparently prided himself on his ability to woo his mistresses rather than force them.

However historic ballads, especially royal ones use liberal amounts of poetic licence, political propaganda and down right lies - just look at Queen Eleanor's Confession, absolute twaddle but a great ballad all the same.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 06:15 PM

Let us not also forget that because this printing is the one that survived doesn't mean that it was the first printing. It could even have come from an earlier manuscript.

Meanwhile a few more Edward ballads (Not to mention Percy's concoction of that name)
Roxburghe has 'A New Ballad of King Edward (IV) and Jane Shore' already alluded to.
Well-known is '(Dialogue between) King Edward the Fourth and the Tanner of Tamworth'
'King Edward's Ghost, or The King and the Cobler' See Bodleian, Harding B3(4)

I think this make's your Edward IV favourite.
During the height of 'historical' ballad making, i.e., 15th-16th centuries, many new ballads were based loosely on old legends, e.g., most of the Robin Hood ballads. Why should this be any different?

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: Stower
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 06:58 PM

Wow, thank you. And especially, thank you, Jack. I think we have both our man and a potential motivation for using him as an allegorical device.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 07:12 PM

I'd imagine Edward IV (born 1442, died 1483) would have been the most likely, being the most recent, with a fair number of mistresses and bastards both acknowledged and rumoured.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: Lynn W
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 08:41 PM

There was a 1659 printing of this ballad, according to a Percy society reprint of 1840 which is available in full on the internet archive - Early English poetry, ballads, and popular literature of the Middle Ages ; (1840)
http://www.archive.org/stream/earlyenglishpoet15perc/earlyenglishpoet15perc_djvu.txt
It's in the section "The Crown Garland of Golden Roses, Part II".
As this date was even before the restoration, it's unlikely the ballad was referring to James II.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 08:45 PM

It probably was when it got reprinted.

Imagine what a present-day revival of a pro-slavery song praising the assassination of Abraham Lincoln would mean. It wouldn't just be about Lincoln, would it?

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 10:23 PM

Great thread! I am enjoying reading along and learning.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: Stower
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 04:36 AM

Lynn W, thanks for your contribution. I have looked at your link to "The Crown Garland of Golden Roses, Part II", but can't find a reference to a 1659 printing date. It does look to be exactly the same as the 1684-1686 one I linked to on the first posting.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 10:15 AM

Well I'm now inclining to Edward III as a possible contender. According to that well-known source of historical accuracy the Guardian(one of its free leaflets on the Kings and Queens of England): Edward III was notoriously fond of his wife Phillippa, but went off the rails a bit after his death. Including, allegedly, a gleesome threesome with Alice Perrers and her daughter. And I see this line in the ballad in question:

Tw]o Ladies now lately have decked my bed:

Suggestive, possibly? Mind you, he only seems to have had the one actual wife.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 10:22 AM

On the other hand, there is a line in the second half of the song that seems possibly to be an allegorical allusion to London changing hands in the Wars of the Roses(which would put it firmly in the Edward IV era.

My colour is changed since thou seest me last

My favour is vanish't my beauty is past,

The rosie red blushes that sat in my cheecks,

To paleness is turned, which all men dislikes.

All very intriguing eh? I think we all need some expert 14th/15th century historians here.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: Crowhugger
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 11:24 AM

I'm also enjoying this thread tremendously!

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 12:14 PM

Well, Edward lV seems to have been a jovial enough fellow if the Ballad of King Edward the Fourth and the Tanner of Tamworth (Child: 273) is anything to go by.

Child 273

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: Lynn W
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 01:04 PM

Hi Stower, the reference to the date is in the introduction to the Crown Garland section, have copied it below -

Early editions of popular Garlands are so rarely
to be found, that it has been thought desirable to
reprint, by way of appendix to the " Crown
Garland" of 1612, the additional ballads contained
in the almost equally rare edition of 1659.

Although many of the ballads are to be found
in comparatively modern collections, the present
copies seemed deserving of republication, as in
most cases they afford the earliest authority for
the text.

An edition of the " Crown Garland," printed in
1692, is in the British Museum, and another,
the date of which is cut off, is preserved in the
Pepysian Library.

The edition of 1692 corresponds in its contents
with that of 1659, now reprinted, and for the loan
of which the Percy Society are indebted to the
liberality of Mr. J. Payne Collier.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 01:50 PM

There seem to be enough songs about Edward IV and his amorous exploits that it looks like he'd become a stereotype Merry Monarch by the 17th century.

I wonder if anybody's made a systematic study of the folklore images of British royalty? There are some with interesting stories that have no songs about them I know of (Wlliam Rufus, or Stephen and Matilda). Are there even any pre-Shakespeare songs that demonize Richard III?

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: Stower
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 02:57 PM

Thanks, Lynn. Now I see. I can't see a reference on the page to say whether the ballad in question is part of the "Crown Garland" of 1612 or one of "additional ballads" from the earlier edition of 1659.

It's fantastic to have those more historically informed than I make contributions and suggestions as to the meaning of the whole ballad or of individual verses. The Edward III reference is interesting, Greg. It seems either he or IV are good candidates, and it does seem to me that some details in verses must be references the audience were expected to recognise.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: Ged Fox
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 05:53 PM

King Stephen is mentioned in ballad.
"Take thy old cloak about thee" has a line like "King Stephen was a worthy loun, he bought his shoes for half a crown."

Sorry for the diversion.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 06:32 PM

its EDWARD THE FOURTH.
Edward second was homosexual, edward third was busy trying to conquer france, and the rest of the edwards, apart from no 4 were nonenties.
whats all this squit about james and charles, they are about as relevant as elisabeth 1, or james [the old sow, another fellow who was more interested in men]

Subject: RE: Origins: Who was King Edward of 17th century?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 07:18 PM

Edward I was not exactly a nonentity, was he?

The point about Charles II and James II/VII is that songs that catch the public imagination are always saying something about the present day, no matter what time they may appear to be talking about. This one seems to date from the reign of James I/VI or earlier and to evoke a time 100 years before that, but if people were buying it and singing it in the 1680s they had a reason.