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BS: Ignorant young people

Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 10 Dec 10 - 11:08 AM
Amos 10 Dec 10 - 12:43 PM
Bonzo3legs 10 Dec 10 - 01:10 PM
GUEST,999 10 Dec 10 - 01:11 PM
Little Hawk 10 Dec 10 - 01:13 PM
michaelr 10 Dec 10 - 01:27 PM
kendall 10 Dec 10 - 01:27 PM
mousethief 10 Dec 10 - 01:27 PM
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Little Hawk 10 Dec 10 - 01:54 PM
Arthur_itus 10 Dec 10 - 03:29 PM
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Subject: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 11:08 AM

It was the son of Pink Floyd guitarist David Gilmour that climbed the Cenotaph during the student protests yesterday. Those who are commemorated by the Cenotaph died to protect the very freedoms that allow the people of Britain the right to protest. Royal protection officers were seconds from drawing their weapons after the Duchess of Cornwall was physically attacked by rioters. Camilla was prodded in the ribs with a stick through the open window of their Rolls Royce as she and Charles were driven to the Royal Variety Performance at the London Palladium.


In a grotesque insult to those who championed the very freedoms which allowed them to stage their protest, the baying rabble of masked and hooded student thugs showed their true colours. They defiled a statue of Winston Churchill by urinating on it, ripped flags from the Cenotaph ­– the nation's sacred memorial to those who died in the name of liberty – then lit fires and sprayed slogans on the ground in the shadow of the Houses of Parliament. The physical victims of their violence, inevitably, were the police. Bottles of urine were hurled on a day when democracy was held in contempt. Windows were smashed at the Supreme Court building. Even the Christmas tree in Trafalgar Square – a symbol of peace and goodwill – became a focus for senseless vandalism.


This is the result of not dealing with these yobs the first time round, if they are students they should be thrown out of the education system. I would like to have seen the police use rubber bullets and water hoses on these thugs. I doubt many of them even care about the tuition fees issue. If they did, and they could read, they would have seen that the proposed terms are completely reasonable.


Do you still support them ?
    Story: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/rock-stars-son-faces-quiz-over-cenotaph-protest-2156530.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Amos
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 12:43 PM

if they are students they should be thrown out of the education system

Oh, that would larn them good, wouldn't it!!

I have no dog in this fight, but I think the issues of the tuition protests ought to be articulated clearly in any discussion, in place of jingoistic histrionics and impassioned rhetoric without any insight.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 01:10 PM

issues/ articulated /jingoistic histrionics /impassioned rhetoric/ without any insight.

It's Friday night - simple English please!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 01:11 PM

I don`t understand the point of this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 01:13 PM

Right on, Amos. What needs to be discussed is not the excessive behaviour of a few angry young people who instinctively lash out at various symbols of authority when an irresponsible government robs the general public blind....

No. What needs to be discussed is the actual and very serious issues that have generated the protests.

I seem to recall that a lot of things got smashed and a lot of aristocrats (many of whom were essentially innocent people in themselves) got attacked by the common people during the French and Russian revolutions too. And there were powerful reasons for that. We need to look at the reasons for the protests, and they are very substantial reasons. This huge raise in tuition fees is outrageous. I think the ordinary public are being made to pay for massive irresponsibility in high places and they're being made to pay bills that THEY DID NOT GENERATE. The bills were generated, I think, by fraudulent banking practices by the most wealthy elements in society. That's why people are so angry about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: michaelr
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 01:27 PM

Right. It's about the have-nots being squeezed by the haves - a centuries-old tradition in England. Without massive displays of public outrage, the politicians aren't going to get the message.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: kendall
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 01:27 PM

Amos speaks perfect English, and he is right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 01:27 PM

And the most wealthy elements are still raking in the dosh hand over fist, and THEY can afford to send their kids to any school they want. Welcome to the new feudalism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Amergin
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 01:41 PM

I support violence when directed at the Oligarchy and their hired thugs with badges and batons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 01:54 PM

Me too. They specialize in it, so why should it be such a surprise that they get some of it back now and then?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 03:29 PM

Are you lot condoning voilence against the police?

If so, you are a disgrace.

I pay my taxes for the police to keep law and order in this country.

I do not want to see anybody get injured, but If you break the law, then I expect the police to sort you out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 03:31 PM

It was the son of Pink Floyd guitarist David Gilmour that climbed the Cenotaph during the student protests yesterday...

We don't need no education
We don't need no thought control


Sowing dragon's teeth, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 03:33 PM

Lock him up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 03:39 PM

OFF with his head.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: mauvepink
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 04:37 PM

I pay my taxes for the police to keep law and order in this country.

... but not at any cost? Most Police will stay within the confines of the law in exercising their duties and that is right and proper. But if they step outside they too are also breaking the law and should be given due process.

Sadly the Police are often given the harsh environments of dealing with political fallout - look at what happened in the Miner's strikes - and you always get over zealous policing. But I have never been in that environment of seeing a mob coming at me, throwing bottles of urine and petrol at me, and throwing bricks. I think I could be over zealous and heavy handed in my own defence if I had to be. I hope I am never put to that test.

The attacks on Charles and Camilla were despicable. The attacks on the Police were despicable. The attacks on innocent people are despicable too. There can never be a place in a civilised society for such anarchy and lawlessness can there? On either side?

I am sure we will see lots more as other cuts are made and we see the weak and vulnerable attacked by a policies who seem intent on rewarding loyal workers with the sack, the sick and the infirm with more hardship, and the elderly and young sent toward poverty. All this at a time when the rich continue to get richer and bonuses protected.

The world is far from fair even in so called civilised nations :-(

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: pdq
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 06:07 PM

"...policies who seem intent on rewarding loyal workers with the sack, the sick and the infirm with more hardship, and the elderly and young sent toward poverty." ~ MP

If we really need somebody to blame, try the Baby Boom Generation.

They are the alltime spoiled brats. They demanded the best of everything all the time and put the tab on credit.

Their children and grandchildren will be paying for their good times. The US National Debt is now about 15 trillion dollars and growing at a faster rate than ever.

The Boomers are also going to crash the Social Security System in just a few years from now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 06:17 PM

The problem here is one of communication...

People don't like being left entirely outta the loop in a free and democratic society...

Same here in the US with the Democrats in Congress up in arms because they too were left out...

I believe that if the students had been brought into the discussion rather than getting the bum's rush and our-way-or-the-highway then the outcome would have been very much difference...

But people get power and it goes to their heads and they forget what democracy is all about... That is arrogance...

The Brits are getting exactly what they are getting... So is Obama... Same deal, different issues and different sides of the pond but same deal...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Smokey.
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 06:43 PM

Back when the UK was exporting more than it was importing, about 5% of school leavers went to universities. Now we are importing much more than we are exporting and about 50% of school leavers are going into higher education. Hardly anyone is employed in a wealth-producing capacity and personal expectations are coaxed ever higher with the consumerism which is supposedly 'helping the economy'. No wonder we're up Shit Creek.

Someone should explain that to the students..


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: pdq
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 07:18 PM

"...about 50% of school leavers are going into higher education..." ~ Smokey

That is an insane policy. Perhps 10-20% to college, the rest should go to trade schools where they learn all they need to know about current "in-demand" jobs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Smokey.
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 07:22 PM

Blair did that to make the unemployment figures look better. To be fair, he inherited the unemployment from Thatcher, but it was a daft way to deal with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 07:32 PM

In Cuba all education is provided to the entire public, right through university, and free of charge. Socialism. That is a society that believes in investing in the future of its own citizens...and for that reason it has been under siege, in effect, by the USA since 1961.

Any nation that makes education universal and free to all its citizens is led by a government that is, at least when it comes to education, wise and idealistic. I know of no other nation in the entire western hemisphere that has provided free and universal education to its whole public. Only Cuba. And I've been there. And, yes, they are well educated and highly intelligent people, so the policy has borne very good results.

They don't have all our expensive toys, though! ;-) I guess there's a price to pay for everything, isn't there? Given the social maturity and excellence of the young Cubans I met, I think they have benefited greatly from a government that has devoted itself to genuine public responsibility rather than to promoting material excess and addictive consumerism for the sake of profiting an oligarchy of huge corporations.


****

It's not that I sympathize with people who attack police and who do violence. I don't. What I do sympathize with, however, is people who have the courage to actively resist gross corruption and oppression when it is inflicted upon them.

There are always some innocent people who get hurt when that sort of situation arises. And they're always on both sides of any social struggle. Lots of them on both sides. Most cops are innocent of wrong intention. Most protestors are innocent of wrong intention. A few of each side are not innocent at all, but most are just caught up in the consequences. It is foolish to imagine that everyone on one side of a great social issue is evil and that everyone on the other side is good, and I don't imagine that for a moment...nor do I approve of evil acts by EITHER side.

But....oppression must still be resisted. Regardless. The trouble is that most people don't really understand how to resist it, so they act impulsively, and many mistakes will get made...both by the cops and by the protestors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 07:41 PM

Thats right Smokey, but you dont expect politicians to tell that to students or anyone else do you?

We are all waiting for something to happen, we cant believe what has already happened.
But we can fight back....without being slaughtered.
The system's dependence on the internet is our greatest weapon, might is no longer right
Marx said that capitalism would destroy itself, and in Global capitalism's choice to abandon labour and invest in technology, it has exposed its Achilles Heel
Comparitively few people in a concerted attack can bring down even the most well protected financial sites
Capitalists beware!......Cyberwar is coming!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Smokey.
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 08:36 PM

you dont expect politicians to tell that to students or anyone else do you?

It's a great pity, what with all this extra education people are getting, that they can't work it out for themselves.

I dont expect much at all of politicians, to be honest, regardless of what they call themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 09:02 PM

Yeah, Ake... There was a time when government could keep people in the dark... And I expect that they know that and they will do everything in their power to maintain exactly that but...

...too late... The horse is already well outta the barn...

Power to the people and power to the information age!!!

And good point, LH... Like I said, "You won't find China making it harder for its folks to get... Do the math... Math??? US in 1970??? 1st... US now??? 23rd...

Like I said, do the math...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 02:50 AM

"It was the son of Pink Floyd guitarist David Gilmour that climbed the Cenotaph during the student protests yesterday..."

Best comment I read on this story referring to David Gilmour's adopted son was:

"All in all he's just another PRICK in Whitehall"


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 04:03 AM

A stupid action Teribus....but these things happen when people are angry.....most wartime heroics are performed when the balance of the mind is affected.

The old warriors have no relevence to the young folks of today, by and large they have been taught by this system, that all that matters is self advancement, and the "we deserve it all ideology", the two sides of the "liberal" capitalist coin.

All the chickens are coming home to roost...we encouraged higher education for all to avoid huge numbers of unemployed young people...purely as an act of political expediency....to save the skins of successive governments.
Like everything else in this system, it has become unsustainable
The people have come to expect and rely on the "crumbs from the rich man's table",and when these crumbs stop falling young folk are no longer prepare just to quietly lie down and starve.

If capitalism is to survive in the West those who run it must quickly come up with some other way of motivating the populace, the most likely being some form of Fascism.

Times have changed and the people have at last the means to hurt the rich who rule them, without the risk of being obliterated by force of arms.
Capitalism should have been part of the evolutionary process, but instead it was, and is still, used as a means of exploitation.
Expect to reap the whirlwind!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 04:42 AM

"Do you still support them ?"

Oh yes. 100%


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 04:56 AM

Que?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 05:26 AM

I dont think that anyone still seriously considers that we live in a proper democracy.
The events of the last few years should have made it evident to everyone that we do not.
Only one thing basically matters to those in control...the continuation of the terminally sick capitalist system.
Every sacrifice which we are being asked to make, is to that end.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 05:31 AM

1. "What needs to be discussed is not the excessive behaviour of a few angry young people who instinctively lash out at various symbols of authority when an irresponsible government robs the general public blind."

The irresponsible Government who robbed the general public blind was voted out of office last May, leaving the present Government to sort out the mess that ZANULiebour "Socialists" left the country in.

2. "This huge raise in tuition fees is outrageous."

Tuition fees were introduced by the last Government in the "Glorious Year of 1997" Remember "Education, edgeoohcashun, edukayshun". Then the same crowd doubled the fees in 2004, and then got one mendacious, self-serving, "brown hatter" Peter Mandelson to get another mendacious, self-serving, "brown hatter" Lord John Browne to look into tuition fees and low and behold they needed to be tripled. Mind you taking a look at costs, services and overheads over the last 13 years by what factor have they all increased, I doubt if any have actually gone down apart from fees paid to performers in "Folk Clubs".

3. "I think the ordinary public are being made to pay for massive irresponsibility in high places and they're being made to pay bills that THEY DID NOT GENERATE."

That has always been the case and applies to every single taxpayer rich and poor since taxes were introduced. The introduction of tuition fees was supposed to be a means by which those who benefitted directly paid towards it, which oddly enough seems quite fair to me. And if they are going to pay towards it then the amount they pay should reflect true costs otherwise the "ordinary public" the author of the quote above seems to be so concerned about have to pay even more.

4. "The bills were generated, I think, by fraudulent banking practices by the most wealthy elements in society."

Huh?? What on earth has how banks conduct their business got to do with tuition fees? As far as I can see they are completely divorced, one having nothing whatsoever to do with the other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 05:33 AM

"It's about the have-nots being squeezed by the haves - a centuries-old tradition in England."

About as idiotic a statement as ever I have seen in print - Tell me michaelr which "have" is squeezing you? Or are you, michaelr, a "have" and if so who are you squeezing? Since leaving school and starting work, right up until the present day I have paid taxes, mortgages and yes university tuition fees for my children. In all that time michaelr I have not once been "squeezed" by a "have" – Now I admire tradition as much as anyone, but could you please explain how I have managed to evade any experience of the one you mention?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 05:39 AM

Well said Teribus


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 06:00 AM

Well, Teribus, not so much now, after a Labour goernment of low interest rates, but during the eighties high interest rates certainly squeezed us plebs at the benefit of the already rich.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 06:16 AM

Well Silas I suppose that all depends on whether or not you were a spender pleb, or a saver pleb. All those "high interest" years benefitted the plebs who saved as well. Another group who benefitted were all the pension funds that even the spending plebs were contributing towards.

"Back when the UK was exporting more than it was importing, about 5% of school leavers went to universities. Now we are importing much more than we are exporting and about 50% of school leavers are going into higher education." – Smokey

"That is an insane policy. Perhaps 10-20% to college, the rest should go to trade schools where they learn all they need to know about current "in-demand" jobs." –pdq

"Blair did that to make the unemployment figures look better." – Smokey


And thus without thinking the thing through Tony Blair and ZANULiebour swamped the further education system of the UK with people who did not want to be there for an education but to obtain their EMA (Education Maintenance Allowance).

The findings and recommendations of the Browne Review which brought in the new levels of tuition fees called for:

•        More investment should be available for Higher Education
•        Student choice should be increased
•        Everyone who has the potential should be able to benefit from Higher Education
•        No-one should have to pay until they start work
•        When payments are made they should be affordable
•        Part-time students should be treated the same as full-time students for the costs of learning


The main recommendations of the report were:

•        Removing the cap of £3290 a year that universities could charge for tuition
•        Raising the point at which tuition fees are paid back from £15,000 to £21,000 a year
•        Loans to only be paid back at 9% of any income earned over £21,000
•        Part-time students would have equal entitlement to tuition under the 'Student Finance Plan'


Now for "little" Alfie going into furvver edgukayshun at the age of 16 'cos he's pissed off at skule the Guvvermint pays him is £30 per week EMA for as long as he is on the course and actually attending it (Correct that to he gets it provided the lecturer can be arsed to note whether the little darling is there or not, path of least resistance is to tick him present whether he is there or not, lecturer has an easy life and "little" Alfie gets his dosh, win-win as long as you are not a working taxpayer)

Now if "little" Alfie wants to go to University he must take out a "loan" to cover tuition fees he had to do this before but now it is for £9000 per year instead of £3290.

I put the word loan in parenthesis because is it in fact a loan?

If "little" Alfie completes his course gets his degree or whatever qualification and then just sponges of the benefits system for the rest of his life he does not have to repay one brass farthing of the £27,000 he borrowed.

On the other hand if "little" Alfie comes out of Uni and gets a job that pays £25,000 per year "little" Alfie starts to repay his "loan" at the rate of £6.92 per week (What's that? 3 pints?). Alfie ploughs on diligently and through incremental raises and promotions finds himslf on £35,000 per year, his repayments now become £24.23 per week (A Take-away and a bottle of wine). Alfie gets "head-hunted" by the competition because he is good at his job and his new employer pays him £45,000 per year, his repayments now are £41.53 per week hardly breaking the bank is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 06:23 AM

Not really mate, it depended on wether you had a mortgage or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 06:32 AM

"hardly breaking the bank is it"

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 08:51 AM

In most countries, new generation of youth have generally been "better off" financially and better educated than their parents. That is, until now. What about the future?

Some posters seem to be mixing up democracy and capitalism, as if one requires the other. Is that true? What would you suggest, if you could design a system with the joint benefits of socialism and capitalism? Is there a country today that "got it right", or at a minimum is heading in the right direction?

I have travelled to Cuba yearly for the past 30. I have close friends who live there. Yes, Cuba has excelled in eliminating barriers to education and health. My observation (confirmed by private discussions with Cuban Friends) is (unfortunately) the cost has been the loss of many freedoms many who live in western countries hold dear. I suspect the "educated" Cuban youth will seek greater freedoms. Will that be successful? I hope so.

What is the social impact of Communist China's experiment with capitalism?


"The Boomers are also going to crash the Social Security System in just a few years from now:".

As if that wasn't predictible for many many years, that there would be a big pulse of "Boomers" that would at this point retire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 08:52 AM

And if you had a mortgage Silas did you benefit from the increase in the value of your property?

From personal experience:

1st Property sold for about 20 times what I bought it for (Note what I bought it for was not what I paid for it)

2nd Property sold for double what I paid for it (In this instance what I paid for it was what I bought it for)

3rd Property now worth three times what I paid for it.

Hey Silas and all this time according to the likes of yourself and michaelr I have been being "squeezed" by haves and shelling out all my money to increase the lot of the rich - Bullshit all the while I have been paying a mortgage I have not been paying rent, all the while I have been paying a mortgage I have been spending my money to ultimately benefit me and my family.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 12:13 PM

Many males in Bolivia will now have two years to enjoy retirement, before they die (according to the stats). :

Bolivia


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 12:16 PM

Sorry, that last statement should have been four years to enjoy retirement, not two:

..."life expectancy is only 62 years for men and 65 years for women"


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 12:56 PM

The 21-year-old son of guitarist David Gilmour who became the face of the violent band of scum students who ran riot in Westminster, is now in his second year at Cambridge University, where he is reading history at Girton College. He admitted he had no idea what the Cenotaph was !

We have one like here that studied law.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: michaelr
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 01:03 PM

Teribus - I was referring to England's feudal past, when the peasants were compelled by blunt force to give part of their meager scrapings to their overlords. This continued in different ways through the industrial revolution and into the 20th century.

You and I were lucky to have been born in what is now showing itself to have been a brief period of relative wealth for those not part of the upper class, in Western Europe and North America. After the Great Depression and World War II, economic prosperity in those countries seemed to make possible a larger middle class and a semblance of equality and social justice.

That window is closing, and it's being closed because today's ruling class has decided it's in its better interest to go back to a "feudal" model of society. You seem to be in the "I got mine" camp, and good for you - I never even had the chance to acquire property, and neither have the majority of working people, to say nothing of the rest of the world. Poverty is making a comeback, and it's by design.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 01:17 PM

I wish the parties had put student funding as higher priorities in their manifesto. As far as I can see they have no mandate for this so soon after an election. Going from 3 to 9 and substantially removing EMA is not a minor adjustment. I can understand the disolutionment of young people with the voting system.
FloraG.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: SINSULL
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 02:32 PM

I can understand young people reacting as they did. They heard that their fees were tripling - and nothing else. Here in the US, a student graduating from the least expensive schools with a BA has a debt of about $50,000 which has to be paid starting six months from graduation.
My niece with an MA and a Law Degree has a debt of $100,000+. She went to some of the best schools and had scholarships plus some parental help. A young man at my company earns less than $30,000/year and is paying over $200/mo towards his loan.
In the 70s, I completed an MA at a state school and came away debt free. In fact, I was paid an "assistantship" while I did my graduate work.
As mentioned above - this is the first generation that can not expect to do better than their parents did. A hard pill to swallow. We couldn't wait to get out of our parent's home. These young people can't afford to live anywhere else unless eight of them can find an apartment to share.
All observations. No judgments.
Although I agree that the attack on the Prince was disgraceful.
Social Security in the US would be overfinanced right now if our government hadn't found ways to dip into it. Left to collect even simple interest there would be more than enough. If and when those loans are paid back to the fund, it will survive. Again, the next generation is not going to see the same benefit.
Seniors also have to accept that the annual raises to Social Security are based on a formula. Two years of no raises and they are bitching. Read the fine print, guys. Or attack Obama's limo. Up to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 02:35 PM

I just posted the following on the Old People thread. May as well put it here, too.


`Hate to break this to y`all, but most of the young people I`ve met are very polite. I see about as much bad manners today as I saw when I was a youngster. IMO.

As for old people, cut `em some slack. Some of us miserable old bastards will be there soon enough, and I doubt we`ll want these types of generalization said about us. IMO.`


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 03:24 PM

Well done to that vast majority of students who protested peacefully. After years of apathy, the younger generation has finally become politicised, realising that their future lies in their own hands. Brilliant! I am very, very proud of you.

The right-wing scum who are trying to take control of this country have a very short sell-by date. Makes me wish I was young again. See you on the streets.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 03:52 PM

Hear, hear, theleveller.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 04:11 PM

Sounds to some here that the protesters won a victory. Check the result of the government vote !


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 04:17 PM

I hope you are 94, because it boggles the mind to imagine how you became so fookin` embittered in fewer than eight decades.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 04:32 PM

There are more students than the country can afford, and most of them are doing 'scarecrow' degrees in subjects which are of no real value to anyone. The theory is that when they have gained these qualifications, they all get well enough paid jobs to pay back the loans foisted on them in order to gain their 'education'. Most of those jobs, of course, will never exist.

Meanwhile, the level of unemployment looks much better than it really is, and the education system looks as if it's doing a far better job than it really is, at least to the wishful thinking and/or the severely gullible. It's an unsustainable situation brought about by the vote-catching short-term thinking we have been governed by for at least the last thirty years.

Most people (UK) are living far beyond their means in a constant state of debt and we have the ludicrous situation where a tramp living in a cardboard box actually has more wealth than the average household, and uses up far less resources. True, he doesn't pay any taxes, but then he isn't paying them with borrowed money that never existed either. It occurs to me that the only real wealth going into the nation's coffers is from the genuinely rich, in which case we probably shouldn't be moaning too loudly about them.

Back when we had wealth producing industry, the 'working class' actually had some clout because their contribution was vital to the big picture, making them a valuable asset. Now the majority of jobs generate nothing and merely use up resources which common sense says should be valued and preserved.

It was asked on another thread where all the wealth is going. It's going east, sure as eggs is eggs. It's not rocket science; eastern economies are growing and ours are suffering. We are living on the backs of Chinese children digging coal out of pits in worse conditions than we had in Roman times; people dying of mercury poisoning in factories we wouldn't tolerate, to make us 'energy saving' light bulbs - all to support our self-destructive illusion of wealth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 04:56 PM

Interesting post there Smokey.

My wifes income is 90% Euros which has to be converted by the UK bank and she gets charged £7 per every payment from abroad.

That income gets spent in Lincolnshire.

Why should she have to pay the 7 quids? She is bringing wealth into the country and is penalised for that. Unlike some who earn money in this country and send it abroad to support their families in other countries.

WTF has that got to do with this thread? ermmmmmmmmmmmmmm


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 05:22 PM

Crackin' post Smokey.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 05:46 PM

""I have no dog in this fight, but I think the issues of the tuition protests ought to be articulated clearly in any discussion, in place of jingoistic histrionics and impassioned rhetoric without any insight.""

A look at this website will give a pretty clear picture of the issues Amos.

http://www.factsonfees.com

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 05:47 PM

VERY interesting post, Smokey. You make some excellent points there.

What we really have is western societies in sharp decline, clinging to illusions of affluence that have been inherited from a previous age that is with us no longer. Asia is in the ascendency, and will be for the forseeable future, and the West is in decline. That being the case, things are going to be tough for people in the West, and I imagine it will bring in a lengthy period of great social unrest and political instability.

What remains unanswered is how well the Indians and Chinese will handle their economic ascendency...and whether they will manage to avoid getting into a major conflict with one another. I think there is a strong risk of such a conflict arising. If it does, I figure the Indians will get the worst of it.

Meantime, we westerners will be watching our own societies decline. Not a pleasant prospect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 06:06 PM

When I was young......................

I knew that I could go to University for free if I so chose.

I had a good education with very little stress.

I swatted up for my GCE's abour 3 weeks before I took them, and that was all the pressure I had.

I started my 'A' Levels but became bored rigid with them and so....

...I started work.

I didn't like my first job, in a bank, and so, after one week I left and got a new job, whwere I was far happier.

For this job, and indeed for ALL my subsequent jobs I never had to fill in vast forms, nor prove I had 36 exam qualifications in all the latest gizmos and gadgets within the Education System.

I was simply accepted for who I was. End of stress.

I was able to give up a job in the morning and find a new one in the afternoon, if I so chose.

I was never in debt.

Neither were my friends.

When my pals came out of University they started in good jobs, as there weren't that many folks who had degrees, so their degree really MEANT something...and they went on to have careers in their chosen subjects.

I always knew that there was a good chance I'd be able to buy a house one day in the not too distant future, with a mortgage I could afford.

I didn't have to worry about sexual diseases that could kill you. Nor did I look on every single person as a potential disease risk, or pervert. I was under no pressure to have sex with every Tom, Dick and Harry, nor did I want to. I could drink my drinks quite happily without ever worrying that someone had put something terrible into it.

I felt happy and free..and free and happy....

I looked forward to having a pension in my old age and to being cared for when I became old and infirm, being able to leave my house to my children one day...


Most young people feel they'll never be able to have a house they can afford. Most of them go to University and start their lives in debt.
They end up with crap jobs and crap degrees which have little value, other than to line the pockets of those who think up the entire 'get yer degree here!' system...They don't have 'careers' in their chosen subjects, because there are so very few careers left these days...Just crap jobs, for crap wages, for crap employers who expect you there 24/7 whilst giving you no contract, no regular hours, no loyalty...and who'll spit you out in an instant if their takings go down a fraction...

Their worried about education, housing, working, pensions, health, debts, bills....

So if they want to piss on this statue, or that statue, or climb The Cenotaph or graffiti Prince Charles' car I can't really blame them, to be honest....

Because I know that Once Upon A Time I lived in Camelot...and sadly, the Knights of the Crooked Table have lost that Golden City, thrown it to the Sharks, to the Enemy Within, with no thought for the new young people of Camelot, no concern whatsoever...

So let them shout and scream to the men and women who gave their lives for this country, for other countries too, indeed, for the entire world..because, who knows, maybe, just maybe, those for whom The Cenotaph stands may be just as angry....and maybe, somewhere 'out there', in another land, far far away, The Good Men And True may hear the desperate cries of a Hopeless Generation who want, more than anything, to simply be able to live their lives in the way we did...in freedom and happiness.

Personally, I don't think that's too much to ask of life.

And personally, I think any bastard who has contributed towards the terrible situation that so many young people now find themselves in, should be put up against a wall and shot...but hey, that's just lil' ol' me and my sense of instant justice, because I'm fair sickened to my soul with so many things I see happening around me.

Viva La Revolucion!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 06:18 PM

We need to stop, wherever possible, importing stuff we can produce ourselves and we need to severely restrict the amount of money taken out of the country for any reason. (restrictions lifted by Thatcher in 1979) If eastern growth was slowed down I think it would benefit them and us equally in the long term. They aren't likely to initiate it though, human nature being what it is. Unfortunately neither are we, for the same reason.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 06:33 PM

Micawberism:

"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,eric the viking
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 07:23 PM

Joe can you re set my earlier posting please? And put my name to it? Thanks.
We can't add your name, but we can do this. --Mod

Before anyone dares to lecture me about the freedoms fought for by the older generation my father fought in almost every theatre of the the second world war, my grandfather fought in the first and I have friends whose children are in Afghanistan as I type.
You talk about disgracing the memories of those who fought and died as if you speak for them. My father told me that he fought for freedom, to stop governments like that of Germany becoming so strong that they destroyed society. That he fought and saw most of his friends die to preserve freedoms taken from us by successive governments. That he fought to allow people freedom from the police state and for the right to protest.(He also gave up going to uni to fight and therefore sacrificed his future in more ways than one)
He also told me before he died he was sick that what he had fought for was being removed slowly and hoped (mistakenly)that the european union would ensure our individual freedom.

I tell you I support the students 100%. Maybe I don't support the violence against the police, but then ask those who have been on the other end of a police truncheon from a highly protected and legally inviolate thug in a uniform and they will tell you different.

If you have an important point to make, don't try to be subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time - a tremendous whack.
Winston Churchill

Those who sit here pontificating about when we were young lions remember, jobs were easy to come by forty years ago. you could go from one to another in a day. Most employers paid you to train and you could, if so inclined, go to night school, work hard and get a degree. You could get, "on the job" training a qualifications up to and beyond degree level. You could go to Uni straight from school with a full grant.You could work a few years, qualify in another area, as I did and then go with a grant. If you had to, you could get a job to suppliment your money or if you were wise and didn't drink it away you could save enough to get by on.Little of this exists for young people today.

If you were the son of a bus conductor and reasonable sized, poor family, like me then the thought of a debt of thousands (though it would be hundreds in those days) would have ensured that I would never have got a degree and life in a profession. (Even though I have done a range of different works). With a debt of equivallent size I would never have got a mortgage, I would never have got my first decent car on HP.

If you have no support for the students, you have no support for our future. All it seems to me is that people cling to the rhetoric of the time. This time it is right wing propaganda.

My son has just completed his degree and owes thousands, even with the limited financial assistance we were able to give him.Will he buy his own house? Hardly able to. He'll end up paying some property owner an inflated rent to his detriment. He and his girlfriend have a debt of tens of thousands. Try getting a mortgage with that !!

.

"That window is closing, and it's being closed because today's ruling class has decided it's in its better interest to go back to a "feudal" model of society. You seem to be in the "I got mine" camp, and good for you - I never even had the chance to acquire property, and neither have the majority of working people, to say nothing of the rest of the world. Poverty is making a comeback, and it's by design". Absolutely right.

Lastly we in Britain have litttle to be proud of in some aspects of our history. Examine our conquest of the America's and Africa and the Australian continent. How many of our soldiers died not in the name of liberty but conquest and enslavement? Some of my ancestors for certain.

"Bottles of urine were hurled on a day when democracy was held in contempt. " Democracy is pretty dead here. It has been held in contempt by those in power, not by those in protest !! (Examples such as MP's continuing expense abuses, increase in surveilence and the recent right wing cuts fly in the face of democracy.)

The young aren't any more ignorant than we were. The ignorant ones are those who think it is right to and that they can exploit us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,eric the viking
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 07:28 PM

Thankyou.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 02:22 AM

I just posted this on the 'Ignorant Old People' Thread, it's relevant here too, IMHO:-

As this is a music forum, I'd just like to say that I spent last evening being entertained by a choir, an orchestra and a school swing band. Their ages ranged from around 14 to at least 75 (I knew some of them). They were all paragons of politeness and charm, all displayed astonishing talent, irrespective of their ages, and they all interacted as equals.

Friendship in music clearly doesn't recognise age difference as any kind of barrier. It was a privilege to be in their company, and a joy to witness 150 or so people of all ages joining together to produce something truly beautiful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 03:04 AM

Oh..and I forgot to add, in my earlier post, that a few weeks back, after the very first student demonstration in London at Tory HQ, BBC Radio Devon interviewed the leader of the Student's Union down in Plymouth, a lovely, intelligent young woman, who spoke eloquently about the entire situation and how angry students were feeling, whilst condemning the violence on that day.

I got to talk to her too, when I rang in to the show. I thanked her for taking a stand against what is happening around us. I told her how proud I was of them all for having the guts to take to the streets in the first place...and how none of us had to start OUR lives in debt, purely to get a Univeristy Education.

She thanked me, from the bottom of her heart, bless her.

I'm sure the demonstrations will continue, but soon it'll not be just the students alone, but many 'ordinary folks' who've had enough of being used, of being abused, lied to and seen as nothing more than 'something' to make a profit from.

Already around 40% of people in Britain cannot pay their energy bills....down here in the West Country many more struggle to pay their water bills too, as we pay twice as much as the rest of the country.

FAR from being ignorant, our young people are lighting the way, which is as it should be. For way too long they've been silent. It's so good to hear their voices once more.

I'd say the only ignorance in this thread is from the person who started it, who sits in his Marie Antoinette Tower, far removed from the tough reality of Orwellian Corporate Bastard Life which weighs so heavy upon the shoulders and souls of so many in the UK, and around the world, these days.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 03:39 AM

"So if they want to piss on this statue, or that statue, or climb The Cenotaph or graffiti Prince Charles' car I can't really blame them, to be honest...."

What could you expect from a pig but a grunt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,s
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 05:17 AM

Yes Richie.

Did you see the way that massive statue of Sadam was defiled??

Disgusting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 05:24 AM

"many 'ordinary folks' who've had enough of being used, of being abused, lied to and seen as nothing more than 'something' to make a profit from."

Yes we had 13 years of that from the despicable labour governments. Does this young generation think they are owed a free "further education"? I won't get a free pension - it costs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 05:30 AM

I support the students 100%, but not the voilence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 05:34 AM

Why not Bonzo, your generation got it all for free.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 06:11 AM

Are the fat cat capitalists who do sod-all work all their lives, and sit on there fat arses while those who are on minimum wage (in uk) or on starvation wages (in 'developing' economies) slog their guts out to line there pockets owed a single penny?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 10:51 AM

"I was referring to England's feudal past, when the peasants were compelled by blunt force to give part of their meager scrapings to their overlords."

Where did you get your ideas about feudal live? Hollywood? The period you are talking about as far as the UK goes lasted roughly from the ninth to the fifteenth centuries. Peasants "compelled" were they? And they did not "give part of their megre scrapings" they gave their time and their labour, in exchange they were given land, employment and protection. In time of war they had to serve their lord and monarch under arms and during such times they were paid and fed.

By the bye who makes up this "ruling class" that is supposed to be "squeezing" me and forcing me back into my feudal roots as a serf? "The window is closing" Hell as like it is. If you want something, you work hard and apply yourself single-mindedly to achieve you goal. As to me being in the "I got mine camp", I most certainly was not born with any silver spoon in my mouth, my first wage was £10 per month, out of which I used to save £4 - If "I got mine" mate it was because I worked hard and saved for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 12:18 PM

"Why not Bonzo, your generation got it all for free."

No, your state pension entitlement is determined by the number of years' Class 1 National Insurance deductions from salaries under PAYE or Class 2 NIC conributions for self employed people.

Unemployed people have their contributions paid by the state through the dole system, which, you will like to know, I have used for all of 2 weeks in 45 years.

But then I have sensibly paid into a private pension scheme as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 01:37 PM

Gilmour arrested - excellent, should be thrown out of Cambridge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 02:08 PM

Great news, several thugs arrested today. Did you see Gilmour on news, creep.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 02:46 PM

I was referring, as you well know, to your generations university education.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 02:48 PM

Just to even it up with the old people thread...


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: josepp
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 03:15 PM

Bunch of spoiled kids. In other areas of the world, kids don't have any chance at college at any price. Brit and American kids don't have the first clue of what it means to be exploited. And the first time something doesn't go their way, they riot in the streets like the spoiled brats they are where mommy and daddy bought them everything they ever wanted and now when they can't get it, they throw a tantrum.

Don't blame the govt, blame yourselves. You voted for them. They told you what you wanted to hear--which had nothing to do with the truth--and you voted for them. Tough shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 03:32 PM

Hi Josepp

Tell me, what does your village do for an idiot when you go on holiday?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: josepp
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 03:49 PM

Britain's wealth came from the exploitation of China and India, they are now getting what they deserve and long overdue so don't complain. America is not far behind Britain for comeuppance. Talk about bubble economies, Britain and America have been on bubble economies for centuries--it's called colonialism. As it slowly disintegrates so does their wealth. Now they have to borrow from the ones they exploited while sending them their jobs and pay them for the crap they can no longer afford to make for themselves. Well, well, well...ain't that a bitch?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: josepp
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 03:50 PM

Oh, and GUEST--you're supposed to sign a name, asshole.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 03:56 PM

"Yes we had 13 years of that from the despicable labour governments. Does this young generation think they are owed a free "further education"? I won't get a free pension - it costs."

ALL the political parties are despicable, Bonzo. That's what you're missing. And it's not only in our country this has happened, but in many.


So, tell me, did *YOU* pay for your Further Education?
Did your friends?
Do the young people of Scotland have to pay for theirs?

Answers on a postcard please..or even..on here, if you're feeling brave..


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 03:57 PM

Well I'm now incredibly optimistic that the brave and independent youngsters who took to the streets recognise what is required to live in a democracy and won't turn out like some of the ignorant old buggers on this thread who seem to have learned nothing except selfishness from previous generations - especially our blackshirts who hark back to Moseley in their outlook. Fortunately, Bloody Thatcher's on her last legs and, hopefully so so are her spawn, disappearing into the horizon accompanied by the smell of wee-soaked longjohns.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 03:59 PM

So sorry josepp, it was I.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 04:01 PM

Tell me Lizzie if the student who takes out his £9000 per year loan then leaves university and then never gets paid more than £21000 per year - does that mean he has received his/her university education free?

According to the rules he or she does as he or she does not have to repay a penny.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 04:13 PM

"ALL the political parties are despicable" So how do you want to run the country, Mascara ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Gervase
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 05:12 PM

Sorry to disillusion the saloon bar bores and Tory dullards, but what you're being told by the Daily Mail and the Telegraph isn't actually true. This is an exercise in social engineering which has nothing whatsoever to do with the fiscal mess the country is currently in.

The figures simply don't add up.
To quote from the government's own website:
A graduate earning £25,000 per year would repay their loan at a rate of £6.92 per week. If earnings fall, then the repayments will fall as well. Graduates won't have to pay back anything until they are earning more than £21,000 a year...Any outstanding payments will be written off after 30 years. If you are in lower paid work or unpaid work (which may include time bringing up a family) you won't be asked to make a contribution.


Given the average earnings of around £25K, paying back £7 a week means that the government is only getting £11K back over 30 years and writing off the rest of the debt. The only way to recoup the money even on a salary of £25k, using the government's own figures for interest, is to pay a hell of a lot more money each month than it is claimed must be necessary. Someone isn't telling the whole truth.
So is this just an exercise in getting money off the government's balance sheet, similar to PFI, or is there an unspoken plan to ratchet up the payments/costs hugely in the future?

And we ask ourselves just why the fees are being raised.
We're told it's because we are horribly in debt. Yet, according to Osborne, structural deficit will be written off by 2014. The payback on fees doesn't kick in until 2016, so they can't be used to help write off the structural deficit, despite what Cable tells us - unless either he or Osborne is not telling the truth.

So, if higher tuition fees aren't part of debt reduction, what are they?
Is there a move within the Con-Dems to 'keep the oiks out', and to ensure that universities are once again populated by 'our sort'?
It's the sheer bloody dishonesty that gets my goat. Why can't they simply say 'There are too many people taking on tertiary education'?
Of course it would be hoping too much for them to admit publicly that 'too many of them are from undesirable backgrounds, and the lower orders really shouldn't be over-educated,' but at least you'd know where they were coming from.

It's worth noting that there is another aspect to this policy which will be almost as damaging, which is the removal of the Educational Maintenance Allowance. However, because most journalists earn more than the threshold, and it's only for poor people, very few actually know about that, and that's another story...

Essentially we have a government that favours wealth over ability, hence this piece of social engineering.
But what do I know; a simple builder and smallholder who didn't go to university at all. I never had the chance to smash up restaurants, let off fire extinguishers, trash people's offices and all the other japes that the Bullingdon Club got up to.

And before the usual suspects jump in and say, "But it was ZANU Lie Bore (gosh, how witty and original is that?) who started the tuition fees," make no mistake, the introduction of tuition fees by New Labour was a very bad move. I'm sorry if by saying that I burst the comforting party political bubble that some of you seem so keen to inflate, but no one party has a monopoly of right or wrong, and to take refuge behind old shibboleths is a sign of intellectual laziness. As is sneering homophobia. OK, Peter Mandelson is homosexual, but is it necessary to trot out the childish 'brown hatter' jibe? I don't condemn William Hague or Alan Duncan because they like musicals.

And do I support the students? Too bloody right!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 05:36 PM

So, tell me, did *YOU* pay for your Further Education?


Yes I did, all through my Chartered Accountancy training.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 11:26 PM

"Given the average earnings of around £25K, paying back £7 a week means that the government is only getting £11K back over 30 years and writing off the rest of the debt."

All based of course on the idiotic premise that your earnings remain static for the 30 years that you are referring to, which of course they will not.

For those entering the job marker the differential in potential earning power between someone with a degree and someone who has not is estimated as being somewhere between £160,000 and £400,000 over the course of their working lives.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 03:23 AM

Surely Chartered Accountancy qualifications are not university qualifiactions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 03:38 AM

Of course they're not, SPB, but Bonzo doesn't have even one of his 3 legs to stand on in this discussion, and well he knows it.


From: Richie Black - PM

"ALL the political parties are despicable" So how do you want to run the country, Mascara ?

I'd love to see my country run by The Good Men and True, in ALL parties. Sadly, we have a very long way to go before that happens.

Oh...and Bitchie, just 'cos I look a darn sight better in mascara than you do, it's no reason to bitch about it. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 05:31 AM

Gervase,

That reminds me of something said by a keynote speaker(may have been Chamber of Commerce0 at a conference some years back about how school leavers shouldn't expect to get a job with good pay.

Lets face it, if a large proportion of people finishing education are better qualified, with transferable skills, who will have aspirations to become a burger tosser, and if/as there is pressure from commercial lobbyists to drive down wages, then it is possible that the government may want to redress the balance to ensure the supply of unskilled cheap labour.

And thereby hangs a paradox - the same commercial sector is driven by consumerism, i.e. more people buying more. So if it isn't funded by wages, then it can only be funded by debt. So more personal debt, the banks rub there hands at he interest and default fees they can charge, then borrowers find they can't afford to make repayments, so the banks face a cashflow crises, therefore we/taxpayers have to bail the banks out.

it doesn't bear thinking about - oh but hasn't that just happened?

Then the second scenario - commerce decides that it doesn't actually need a UK work force, especially as there are developing economies where workers can be employed for pence rather than pounds. Before anyone calls me racist,I am not condemning the people employed, but the exploitation of the workers who are often work in appalling conditions.

So, someone may say, globalisation means that labour costs in UK need to be driven down to be competitive?

If one considers it acceptable that the main role of a worker is solely to create wealth for someone else,than it would be true.   However, this stifles innovation, and development of new markets. A good education system creates the prospects of innovation taking place, creating wealth at a micro level.

Looks like I am getting sidetracked again

S.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 07:50 AM

"Things got a bit out of hand & we'd had a few drinks, we smashed the place up & Boris set fire to the toilets"

David Cameron, Oxford Uni 1986 student

Full force of the law? Hmmmmm......


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 08:01 AM

"Surely Chartered Accountancy qualifications are not university qualifiactions."

No, it is a Professional qualification.

Oddly enough a degree qualification pales into insignificance once you are a Chartered Accountant - their exams and training are significantly harder than the little tests in a degree course!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 08:07 AM

Course they are Bonzo, course they are.
However, about your generation and university funding....?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 08:16 AM

And those in your generation who claimed exemptions from papers F1, F2, F3, F4 (and possible other papers)through studying Fiance and Accounting at University.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 08:19 AM

Mob mentality is a beast. NON VIOLENT PROTESTS REQUIRE EDUCATION.
That irony aside, I have been to peace demonstrations that had the loftiest goals of peace while a few protestors thought the idea of the demonstration was to cause private property damage. The officers sought to cause personal injury.

Supporting a laudable goal and supporting every despicalble act by mob mentality are 2 entirely different things.

The fog of war and the fog of protest are related.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,Gervase
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 08:57 AM

So, tell me, did *YOU* pay for your Further Education?
Yup, every penny. As a mature student on a vocational course I didn't get a grant or a loan, and my OU degree was paid for out of my own earnings. In both cases, however, I was already working and earning a reasonable amount of money, and so there was no question of taking on a 30-year debt or incurring interest on never-never terms.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 02:50 PM

Police brutalise wheelchairbound student


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 04:48 PM

Pity he stood up, otherwise he might have made a more convincing martyr.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 05:16 PM

I re-watched the video. Do tell me when he stood up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 05:20 PM

I only know what he wrote:

"From the corner of my eye, I spotted one of the policemen from the earlier incident. He recognised me immediately. Officer KF936 came charging towards me. Tipping the wheelchair to the side, he pushed me onto the concrete, before grabbing my arms and dragging me across the road. The crowd of 200 ran and surrounded him. I got back up and stood in front of the horses."


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 05:35 PM

He was born with cerebral palsy and has been in a wheelchair all his life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 05:37 PM

100.

The creep son of Dave Gilmour seen swinging on the Union Flag at the Cenotaph last Thursday has appeared in the Daily Mail today in fresh pictures of him piling newspapers outside the Supreme Court and attempting to set fire to them with a lighter. Gilmour was also pictured clutching a rock for use as potential ammunition against the police and allegedly boasted of 'taking so many batons' during the violent clashes. The Cambridge University history student who admitted he had no idea what the Cenotaph was, is typical of the type of thug that wrecked public property in London with the blessing of the brain-dead Hoff Bridge and Tin Lizzie, Gilmour admitted he was also in the mob that surrounded Prince Charles and Camilla' car.

In the photographs in the Mail, Gilmour is seen taking a stone from roadworks in Whitehall. With a scarf wrapped around his face in an unsuccessful attempt to hide his identity, he tossed the rock menacingly at police. In another sign of sinister intent, he wore latex gloves during the demonstration to avoid leaving incriminating fingerprints.

There is a moving reference to the Cenotaph in the Pink Floyd song Southampton Dock, and David Gilmour's former bandmate Roger Waters lost his father in the Second World War and has written extensively about his loss throughout his career. 


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 05:45 PM

Gee, I paid for my bachelor's and master's degrees by student loans (repaid, with interest), service in the National Guard, active duty service in the Army, money from a totally inadequate GI bill, and part-time work -- not to mention the support of living at home and walking to college every day. Of course, I couldn't afford boozing every night or a car or dope or any of the really fun things. Yes, there was perhaps some small quantity of liquor consumed at certain times...and there might have been a girl or two dated...but my education was paid for, in full, by myself and my work.

Now, let's see: I attended a private high school and I couldn't afford the tuition there, so I worked washing dishes in the cafeteria, scrubbing the gym floor, and doing other things in lieu of the cash we didn't have. Grade school I don't remember.

And I wasn't aware that students in the UK all got free rides or low cost transportation....

Like Amos, I have no dog in this fight. I just don't understand it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 05:54 PM

"He was born with cerebral palsy and has been in a wheelchair all his life."

He has my sympathy for that, but I don't really know what point you are trying to make.

I've no intention of judging that situation without at least hearing both sides of the story.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: josepp
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 06:05 PM

Here in America you pay for your college education no matter what. It doesn't matter how much your job pays or even if you can find a job. The loan never goes into default but must and will be paid in full. I went into the military for six years to get my schooling and then continued it when I got out, while working full time in a factory, so that I wouldn't be in debt for 30 years. Occasionally, you get turds who applied for welfare and then used it to put themselves through school and justified it by saying it went to use for the public good but sort of forget to admit that it also gave them a free ride which I didn't get (i.e. "You gave me welfare which I used to get off welfare, aren't you proud of me?"). But it was always illegal. In Britain, such freebies seem to be legal and quite the norm and they're whining. People on this thread are "GO STUDENTS!!" They look like a bunch of spoiled brats!! Whatever are they complaining about? What am I not understanding here??


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 06:10 PM

Josepp

You are forgetting that education is a pubic service and a public right.

From your other "neoliberal" posts you may never understand but that is the root of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 06:13 PM

When the country was making a profit, students got free money and there were nothing like as many of them. Now we make a loss due to the scuttling of our manufacturing industry and we have about ten times the number of students. Unfortunately they don't seem clever enough to do the sums.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 06:14 PM

PS. Plenty of people can stand (if not for long) but not walk (or not for far).

Ever hear of a crippled US president who levered himself up on the edge of his desk and said "Don't tell me what's impossible"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 06:20 PM

I know that, Richard, but what's your point?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 06:20 PM

What do American members here make of this guys continuous cynical remarks ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 06:21 PM

RB

Are you condemning 50,000 students purely on the behaviour of one poor little rich kid?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 06:38 PM

Firstly he IS NOT A STUDENT. He is a well known for turning up at any gathering with a banner . A police spokesman said on television today that: individual hasn't made any complaint. In fact he admitted he was attacked from behind, yes from the surging line of students !

He IS NOT wheelchair bound either. Through his own admission Mr McIntyre, can stand and walk 100 yards unaided.


He was in fact escorted by the police through their lines - it was felt he was in danger both of being crushed or toppled by those behind him that were pushing at the barriers and by any shortfalls of the missiles thrown at the police. The truth is that the police put him behind their lines out of harm's way. Their action was protective rather than aggressive.


One well may ask what the hell was a wheelchair bound man who IS NOT a student and has nothing to do with the demonstration doing there facing police at the front line screaming abuse into their faces ?

Drama Queen Bridge at it again.

Go to the Daily Mail website to read the truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 06:38 PM

You are forgetting that education is a pubic service and a public right.

It's a privilege, and there was nothing pubic about mine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 06:40 PM

SPB-Cooperator, I was referring to Bridge, not that thug Gilmour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 07:01 PM

In an ideal world, education should be a right, but because we get it and others don't, it's most definitely a privilege.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: josepp
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 09:39 PM

////You are forgetting that education is a pubic service and a public right.////

While I could be a typical mudcatter such as yourself and make endless idiotic, smartass jokes about your use of "pubic" as a way of dealing with people I fear may be more intelligent than me but in this case I will instead ask since when is education a right???? Do you pay for rights, Bridge??? No, but you do pay for school. In America, seeing that your kids get some kind of schooling is mandatory. That's not a right.

Is it a public service? Yes, in some ways it is. But in other ways it's completely self-serving. George Bush's graduating from Harvard Business School may have helped him. Didn't do shit for the rest of the country. Or the world for that matter.

////From your other "neoliberal" posts you may never understand but that is the root of it.////

I don't know what a neoliberal is and I suspect you don't either. One of these days I'm confident you're actually going to say something sensible and worth reading but I admit time is getting short.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 10:16 PM

There is no doubt that the victim is a sufferer from cerebral palsy. If you, Richie Black, think that that is not being disabled, perhaps you should try it.

Josepp - you seem to be one of those who assert that everything has a price and that that is all that defines the thing.

Another protester is nearly dead in hospital.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: josepp
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 10:27 PM

Everything does have a price but that doesn't necessarily mean money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 11:22 PM

Love this myth of Richard's that "education is a right", absolutely ridiculous notion of course particularly when applied to further education and university degree courses.

Basic education in the UK is mandatory

Higher eductaion in the UK is voluntary

Further education (University) you have the "win" your place, i.e. you have to qualify to be eligble for it - the only "right" you have to it is the "right" that you yourself have earned it is not something that is "given".

Charlie Gilmour needs to have the book thrown at him, the finest education that money could buy (Lancing College at £9000 per term) seems to have done the spoilt brat not one bit of good. Time he tried the University of Hard Knocks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 03:20 AM

"From: Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 02:50 PM

Police brutalise wheelchairbound student"

Mr. Bridge, please correct your post.

HE IS NOT A STUDENT.

Also,He was in fact escorted by the police through their lines - it was felt he was in danger both of being crushed or toppled by those behind him that were pushing at the barriers and by any shortfalls of the missiles thrown at the police. The truth is that the police put him behind their lines out of harm's way. Their action was protective rather than aggressive.

Always check your facts before you post, how many times must I point this out to you old boy ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: theleveller
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 03:37 AM

I notice there is no condemnation from our Bozo and Black comedy duo about the antics of Cameron and his buddies when they were students. So, presumable, you think it's OK to smash up and set fire to a public place for "fun" but you condemn thoughtful, well-intentioned students who march to try to defend their right to an affordable education (and yes, it is is a right). Strange sense of values, Blackie - or is it just ignorance!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 05:59 AM

theleveller ~~ quite right, of course: upper-class yobbery is as bad as any other kind, and surely nobody will have much time for The Bullingdon & its antics; or for its insufferable snobbery ~~ one of its members, e.g., had the nickname "Oik" among them, as he had only been at St Paul's and not Eton!

But do remember that wise & useful old saw about two blacks [& I do not refer here to the egregious Richie...]

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 06:13 AM

Indeed Michael, or they could cry crocodile tears to gain public sympathy which would serve to ease their own guilt !


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: C-flat
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 06:52 AM

It seems to me that a lot of people are very angry and with good reason.
The coalition parties are having to stretch their fabric so thin to accomodate each other that it is plainly transparent and leaves many feeling as though they were simply lied to.
I doubt it is as straightforward as that but Clegg in particular has done whatever it took to get into government and it seems that there is no part of their manifesto that is written in stone.
So the students protest. Nothing new about that. Students love protesting and, to be fair, they've got a genuine greivance and, if I were a student, I probably be protesting too.
But here's the problem. Those guys at the front where all the agro is with the matching green crash-hats and weilding sticks.
Who are they?
Students? You think so?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,Gervase
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 07:17 AM

Go to the Daily Mail website to read the truth
That has to be one of the funniest comments I've read in a long time!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 07:32 AM

The Daily Mail is the United Kingdom's second biggest-selling daily newspaper. Stick to the Beano gynecomastia.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 07:55 AM

Hey Richie - eat shit, 200billion flies can't be wrong...


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 07:56 AM

That shows what happens when the media plays to a gallery. There's no doubt that prejudice sells papers. That doesn't make the daily mail a paragon of unbiased, unopinionated, factual reporting does it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,Gervase
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 08:20 AM

And the Sun is the biggest selling paper in the UK, so that must have even more truth in it than the Daily Mail, eh, my little proctoglossalist?
Just don't let Freddie Starr anywhere near your hamster.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,Gervase
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 08:28 AM

Still, I can see Richie's attraction for the Mail. Perhaps he's dribbling with longing for the glory days of the classic 'Hurrah for the Blackshirts' headline? Or the comment 'The sturdy young Nazis are Europe's guardians against the Communist danger'.

That Lord Rothermere, he was a proper toff and no mistake. I'll bet Ritchie gets a bit moist when he reads his lordship's editorial on Hitler: 'I urge all British young men and women to study closely the progress of the Nazi regime in Germany. They must not be misled by the misrepresentations of its opponents. The most spiteful distracters of the Nazis are to be found in precisely the same sections of the British public and press as are most vehement in their praises of the Soviet regime in Russia. They have started a clamorous campaign of denunciation against what they call "Nazi atrocities" which, as anyone who visits Germany quickly discovers for himself, consists merely of a few isolated acts of violence such as are inevitable among a nation half as big again as ours, but which have been generalized, multiplied and exaggerated to give the impression that Nazi rule is a bloodthirsty tyranny.'

Nowhere near as bad as those revolting student attrocities, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 08:54 AM

Come on old boy, you know that to be utter balderdash.

cheery-bye, toodle pip.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 09:06 AM

That's just the problem, Ritchie. Having seen your ranting PMs to me, it's the only conclusion I can reach. Were I more charitable I'd suggest you seek help.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,Gervase
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 09:07 AM

Damned cookies. The above was me, by the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: andrew e
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 11:11 PM

Would anyone like to suggest why Charlie Gilmour was protesting along with other students? It seems it wouldn't be for lack of money.
What could be his motives?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Smokey.
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 01:07 AM

He's just a young twat showing off to his mates. A night in the cells would cure him for life, I suspect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 03:38 AM

What this unrepresentative government has done by pushing through a bill for which it had no mandate is to open a whole can of worms. It has effectively politicised a large group who were, previously, largely politically apathetic. They now see that they have to stand up and fight for their future against a tawdry coalition of vested interest. More and more people will join them, as happened with the Poll Tax protests, until the government falls apart and we elect a new one which will, hopefully, repeal this short-sighted bill.

See you on the streets!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 04:24 AM

Ritchie Black: Also,He was in fact escorted by the police through their lines - it was felt he was in danger both of being crushed or toppled by those behind him that were pushing at the barriers and by any shortfalls of the missiles thrown at the police. The truth is that the police put him behind their lines out of harm's way. Their action was protective rather than aggressive.

This is absolute bollocks. The video on YouTube and as shown on the BBC in the Ben Brown interview quite clearly shows several police officers running towards him, knocking his wheelchair over and him to the ground then dragging him over the concrete or asphalt. There was no-one anywhere near behind him at the time.

In what way was that "protective"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 04:33 AM

Here you go:

McIntyre Tipped From Wheelchair

I see no bottles being thrown, no particular violence (crowd sound fairly good natured at this point), no crowd threatening him from behind...just a bunch of police officers knocking an isolated wheelchair user out of his chair and dragging him off. Some "escort"!

Still, the Daily Mail says otherwise, and as I only have first hand knowledge of 3 news reports regarding climbers or hill-walkers where the Daily Mail got it *completely* wrong (and 0 where they got it even a bit right), I guess I'll have to bow to Mr Black's superior knowledge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 04:47 AM

Thank you


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 07:21 AM

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Heard a great set by the Aynsley Lister Band this morning!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 09:23 AM

Would anyone like to suggest why Charlie Gilmour was protesting along with other students? It seems it wouldn't be for lack of money.
What could be his motives?


Well I protested against the Vietnam war in the early 70s. I was in no danger of being called up to fight in it, and my own country wasn't involved in it, so what could have been my motives?

Are we only allowed to protest about things that directly affect our own lives or pockets? I'm not gay or black, but can conceive of joining protests against resurgent racism or homophobia if, IMO, conditions warranted it.

Young Gilmour was a bit of a twat I think (though if you look closely at the pile of paper he was trying to set fire to it was a copy of the Socialist Worker, so the lad can't be ALL bad :-) ) .

But having seen Ms Samson horribly henpecking poor David G at a climbing competition I was officiating at because she thought he was spending too much time helping out rather than supporting their son Joe (he wasn't...the balance was about right IMO), I can imagine that Charlie was probably well spoiled and over-indulged before DG adopted him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:54 AM

Young Gilmour was a bit of a twat I think (though if you look closely at the pile of paper he was trying to set fire to it was a copy of the Socialist Worker, so the lad can't be ALL bad :-) ) .

That's alright then!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 08:27 AM

"Young Gilmour was a bit of a twat I think"

Bit like Otis Ferry then?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Gervase
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 10:26 AM

Indeed. Rock star's child in 'bit of a twat' shocker? Well I'll be, I never would have though it!
Still, the fact that one indulged idiot made an arse of himself clearly demolishes any argument against the rise in tuition fees.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 11:01 AM

LOL

Good post, Gervase.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 12:49 PM

It's a good job we don't elect twats as well, otherwise the country would be in a right old mess.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 12:51 PM

Well, we`d know for sure when the economy went in the hole . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 01:02 PM

Its fate was sealed in 1979 when the hole was made considerably larger.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: andrew e
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 05:07 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wZZA9x9AZc

Comment regarding Charlie Gilmour towards the end.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 06:10 AM

I suspect that Charlie Gilmore was happy to have his name in the news too, 5 minutes of fame is better than none at all for some I guess. My sympathies are still with the students but possibly when one or two individuals commits an act of violence it creates a knock on effect, mass hysteria. To most young people demonstrating is quite a new experience compared to the 60's or 70's and are not be aware of the dangers that violent thugs can cause when they infiltrate demonstrations and possibly unprepared of how to deal with it or plan an escape. It would be good to see an end to it before anymore horses get caught in the firing line apart from anyone else.


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