link: info on Lincolnshire singer Joseph Taylor

Subject: Joseph Taylor
From: Rozza
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 04:30 PM

Information about the Lincolnshire singer, Joseph Taylor, recorded by Percy Grainger in the early 20th century is available on my family's website. Included are recordings, photographs, census data and other documents.

http://www.family-trees.org.uk/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I608&tree=FullTree

Subject: RE: Joseph Taylor
From: tritoneman
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 04:40 PM

Thanks for putting that link on Rozza. Fascinating stuff. I've heard the 1908 recording of him singing Worcester City. Will look forward to hearing and finding out more about him.

Subject: RE: Joseph Taylor
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 05:29 PM

Rozza, that is an absolutely fabulous resource! You have done all of us who love English traditional song a huge favour by putting all of that material on one site. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Years ago I bought the Bill Leader recording of Joseph Taylor and the other North Lincolnshire singers (I can't play it at the moment because I've got no turntable - must get one of those USB thingys and digitise it). It made a huge impression on me at the time it came out.

Subject: RE: link: info on Lincolnshire singer Joseph Taylor
From: RTim
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 07:47 PM

Fantastic Job, very well done.
I know how difficult it can be researching people from that era - I have done something similar with George Blake of The New Forest, who was one of George Gardiner's singers.

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: link: info on Lincolnshire singer Joseph Taylor
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 04:23 AM

Excellent!

Great photographs of Percy, Joseph, et al, and of old Saxby.

Good to see also references to Ruairidh Greig - long-time organiser of The 'Folk 'n' Good Ale Club', Gainsborough, Lincolnshire, friend, and ex-teacher of my children. Ruairidh is himself a brilliant singer of trasitional songs, and a mine of folkie-type information.

Subject: RE: link: info on Lincolnshire singer Joseph Taylor
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 04:33 AM

Great job.
It would be wonderful to see a re-issue of the Leader album Unto Brigg Fair and maybe a serious published version of the much neglected Grainger collection???
jim Carroll

Subject: RE: link: info on Lincolnshire singer Joseph Taylor
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 05:35 AM

Presumably it is in the black hole that is Celtic Music Jim.

Subject: RE: link: info on Lincolnshire singer Joseph Taylor
From: johnadams
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 06:00 AM

Celtic Music don't own the original recordings - they were licensed by Bill for the Brigg Fair album. It would be entirely possible to license them again and to put out a similar but different album.

At the time, the album didn't sell enough to be commercially viable, as was the case with most of the Leader 4000 series. When the series were remaindered, I bought scores of copies for 50 pence and Ken Wood and I (Festival Records) sold them on at festivals for the next few years - and it took years for them to shift.

Maybe a present day re-issue would sell, I don't know. As it is, you can buy the tracks that appear on the Voice of the People CDs as downloads on iTunes.


Worcester City VotP 4
The Gypsy Girl VoTP 6
Bold William Taylor VotP 6
The White Hare VotP 18

Brigg Fair - Hidden English
Lord Bateman - Hidden English
Sprig of Time - Sprigs of Time - 78s from the EMI Archive

You might find more.

Subject: RE: link: info on Lincolnshire singer Joseph Taylor
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 06:29 AM

"and it took years for them to shift"
What a sad indictment of the folk scene.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: link: info on Lincolnshire singer Joseph Taylor
From: johnadams
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 08:16 AM

Yes, Jim. All that stuff couldn't sell out a single pressing run (except perhaps The People's Carol) and probably wouldn't fare much better today.

My hat comes off to Bill Leader and Tony Engle and others who put this stuff out because it needed putting out.

Also, hurrah for new technology that keeps it available.

Subject: RE: link: info on Lincolnshire singer Joseph Taylor
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 08:33 AM

"My hat comes off to Bill Leader and Tony Engle"
Mine too John - I remember hearing of Tony, Bill and our old friend Bob Thomson working many hours on a single scratch on the recordings to produce the magnificent album that they did.
The Grainger recordings remain, in my opinion, the single most important collection of English songs ever, yet inexplicably, they remain generally unobtainable apart from the two un-annotated Patrick O'Shaunessy selections, now probably long out of print - always puzzled me why.
I do have the very useful Jane O'Brien monograph on the collection, which I picked up for £1.00 in a second hand bookshop - sums it all up really!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: link: info on Lincolnshire singer Joseph Taylor
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 11:11 AM

thankyou , i will bookmark this

Subject: RE: link: info on Lincolnshire singer Joseph Taylor
From: Rozza
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 01:23 PM

I agree with your opinion about the Grainger collection. It's a shame that Bob didn't continue his excellent work on the Leader record, to produce a scholarly edition to match the many excellent American regional collections. Did you know that there is a copy of Jane O'Brien's thesis in Brigg Public Library?

I should also defend Patrick O'Shaughnessy. With the support of the Lincolnshire Association and later Lincolnshire and Humberside Arts, he published three collections: Seven Lincolnshire Folk Songs, Twenty-One Lincolnshire Folk Songs and Yellowbelly Ballads (in two parts). Included are seventy-six songs from the collection, all with quite full notes with bibliographies and discographies.

Ruairidh

Subject: RE: link: info on Lincolnshire singer Joseph Taylor
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 02:59 PM

Rozza - (R. G.)
Not taking a pop at O'Shaughnessy - just that I feel that (as with the Hammond and Gardiner collection) a full 'warts and all' publication, along with some background to the work would have given the collection the attention it merits.
I assume that the O'Shaughnessy books are all out of print - I would dearly love to lay my hands on 'Seven L F S which I failed to get when it was available.
The same goes for the album; mine has worn paper thin with playing - don't suppose you have any of yours left John (he asked hopefully)?
I wonder if anybody can confirm the story I heard at a lecture on Grainger at C# House, given by John Bird some years ago about the recording of George Wray singing 'Lord Bateman'. After he had sung it into the horn he asked was it possible to hear what had been recorded. Grainger prompltly played it back for him and the old man looked contemplative and finally said, "That bugger learned it a lot quicker than I did".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: link: info on Lincolnshire singer Joseph Taylor
From: Rozza
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 03:14 PM

Can't confirm it but it would fit George Wray's character- great story.

Subject: RE: link: info on Lincolnshire singer Joseph Taylor
From: johnadams
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 07:01 PM

Jim,

I've sent you a PM.

Subject: RE: link: info on Lincolnshire singer Joseph Taylor
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 02:03 AM

Ruairidh, you old so-and-so......I wondered if it was you, I hoped a mention might draw you out! Glad you're still kickin'!
Long Live Stan Rogers!

Subject: RE: link: info on Lincolnshire singer Joseph Taylor
From: Rozza
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 07:15 AM

Yep, still here. thanks for the "honourable mentions". Hope to get over and see you all in the New Year.

Subject: RE: link: info on Lincolnshire singer Joseph Taylor
From: Rozza
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 07:24 AM

On the subject of George Wray, Jim, I came across a possible example of his sense of humour. He told PG that early in his life, he went to sea as a cook with a Mr Cross of Appleby. That village is a few miles north-east of Scunthorpe. The nearest water is the River Ancholme, which used to carry barge traffic, but not sea-going ships (perhaps humber keels I suppose). The only Mr Cross I can find in Directories and census returns is long-established vicar! Was George pulling PG's leg? I also came across a reference to a George Wray selling his wife, but the date is just a bit too early.

Subject: RE: link: info on Lincolnshire singer Joseph Taylor
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 10:50 AM

It'll be good to see you Rozza. Looking forward to it.

Subject: RE: link: info on Lincolnshire singer Joseph Taylor
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 11:14 AM

"On the subject of George Wray....."
Thanks for that R - it's always been my contention that we know far too little of our singers, mainly due to the fact that the songs have been treated as precious artefacts rather than the parts of peoples lives they undoubtedly were'; stories like these help to put flesh on the bones of our tradition. There really should be a collection of them put together; I'm convinced it would be both educational and entertaining.
I enjoyed immensely the talk you gave on Joseph Taylor in Sheffield some dozen years ago, though I was somewhat disappointed to learn that the 'Albert Hall legend was - well; a legend! For anybody interested, the talk was included in the published collection of papers, 'Folk Song - Tradition, Revival and Re-Creation', edited by Iain Russell and David Atkinson - well worth having.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: link: info on Lincolnshire singer Joseph Taylor
From: Rozza
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 02:10 PM

Thanks for that, Jim. Seems like a long time ago. It was an excellent conference. So many papers, so little time.

Subject: RE: link: info on Lincolnshire singer Joseph Taylor
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 08:39 PM

Unto Briggs Fair is available as a CD-R. You can get from CAMSCO, of course.

Subject: RE: link: info on Lincolnshire singer Joseph Taylor
From: Reinhard
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 04:33 AM

According to the tracklist on CAMSCO, that CD-R (Peter Kennedy's?) has only the 12 tracks with a Gramophone Company matrix numbers from the Leader album. The 9 tracks noted with Grainger cylinder numbers seem to be missing on the CD-R.

Subject: RE: link: info on Lincolnshire singer Joseph Taylor
From: Rozza
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 07:17 AM

Slight confusion here. Peter Kennedy produced a Folktracks cassette which included the Gramophone Company recordings and an interview with Taylor's youngest daughter, Mary Ann Taylor, who was village schoolmistress in Saxby All Saints for many years. This is the one now available through CAMSCO. It is quite separate from the Leader LP, which also included the Gramophone Company recordings as well as copies of original phonographs made by Percy Grainger at Brigg. The Leader LP also included recordings of other singers, including George Wray, George Gouldthorpe and Joseph Leaning, Grainger's other major informants.

Ruairidh

Subject: RE: link: info on Lincolnshire singer Joseph Taylor
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 06:39 PM

refresh....had to clean up Spam and some responses. It's probably best not to respond to Spam messages. We see and delete the Spam, but we don't necessarily see the responses - and the responses make you look silly once the Spam has been deleted.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: link: info on Lincolnshire singer Joseph Taylo
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 06:26 PM

I thought I'd have a look for Jane O'Brien's monograph mentioned above. Bookfinder.com throws up eight listings (some of these may be duplicate entries) ranging from £45.63 to £643.70! I'll keep looking in hopes for another £1 copy to turn up.

Ross

Subject: RE: link: info on Lincolnshire singer Joseph Taylor
From: Richard Spencer
Date: 15 Jan 11 - 11:00 AM

For anyone who does not have a copy of Unto Briggs Fair, there is one on eBay now!

Subject: Jim Moray, BBC, Brigg Fair - Joseph Taylor
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 06:40 AM

BBC "Between the Ears"
In 1906 the Grainger visited Brigg in Lincolnshire to record, for the very first time, the songs of traditional folk singers on a wax cylinder machine.
Among his subjects was the 74-year-old Joseph Taylor who was later invited to attend the London premiere of Delius's An English Rhapsody which had been inspired by the old man's rendition of Brigg Fair. When he heard the familiar tune, Taylor was said to have removed his hat and sang along, encouraged by Delius and Grainger.

This programme follows Jim Moray as he experiments with technology to recreate that moment; bringing the voice of Joseph Taylor and the Delius orchestral work back together for the first time in over 100 years..."

Someone does mention "never let the truth get in the way of a good story" and the result is only a couple of lines long but I enjoyed the programme as a whole.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06yjfgg 


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