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BS: Tory liars attack youth education

Richard Bridge 13 Dec 10 - 03:46 PM
Arthur_itus 13 Dec 10 - 04:39 PM
Richard Bridge 13 Dec 10 - 05:18 PM
Arthur_itus 13 Dec 10 - 06:20 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Dec 10 - 08:17 PM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 14 Dec 10 - 05:15 AM
Stu 14 Dec 10 - 07:26 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Dec 10 - 08:41 AM
Dave Hanson 14 Dec 10 - 08:50 AM
Bobert 14 Dec 10 - 08:55 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Dec 10 - 09:20 AM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 14 Dec 10 - 09:56 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 14 Dec 10 - 10:14 AM
Lox 14 Dec 10 - 10:20 AM
Richard Bridge 14 Dec 10 - 10:45 AM
John MacKenzie 14 Dec 10 - 10:55 AM
Gervase 14 Dec 10 - 11:10 AM
Lox 14 Dec 10 - 11:31 AM
Lox 14 Dec 10 - 11:36 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 14 Dec 10 - 12:08 PM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 14 Dec 10 - 12:22 PM
John MacKenzie 14 Dec 10 - 12:36 PM
Lox 14 Dec 10 - 01:50 PM
Bonzo3legs 14 Dec 10 - 02:08 PM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 14 Dec 10 - 02:19 PM
John MacKenzie 14 Dec 10 - 02:23 PM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 15 Dec 10 - 06:20 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Dec 10 - 06:47 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Dec 10 - 07:16 AM
Rafflesbear 15 Dec 10 - 08:27 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 15 Dec 10 - 10:03 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 15 Dec 10 - 10:45 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 15 Dec 10 - 11:19 AM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 15 Dec 10 - 12:20 PM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 15 Dec 10 - 01:18 PM
Lox 15 Dec 10 - 02:37 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Dec 10 - 05:53 PM
Herga Kitty 15 Dec 10 - 06:26 PM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 15 Dec 10 - 06:34 PM
Lox 15 Dec 10 - 06:45 PM
Lox 15 Dec 10 - 06:48 PM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 15 Dec 10 - 06:54 PM
John MacKenzie 15 Dec 10 - 07:20 PM
Joe Offer 15 Dec 10 - 07:24 PM
GUEST,Dave Eyre 16 Dec 10 - 03:42 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 16 Dec 10 - 04:23 AM
Richard Bridge 16 Dec 10 - 04:43 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 16 Dec 10 - 06:47 AM
Bonzo3legs 16 Dec 10 - 07:50 AM
Lox 16 Dec 10 - 03:21 PM
GUEST,999 16 Dec 10 - 03:25 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Dec 10 - 07:00 PM
GUEST,999 16 Dec 10 - 07:09 PM

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Subject: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 03:46 PM

The turned coat of Condomhead Cameron.

Before the election - "Will you retain Educational Maintenance Allowance? - Yes"

Before the election "Will you protect the Sure Start scheme? - Yes".

After the elections (today in fact) - "No".


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 04:39 PM

Now how did I guess that this thread would be started by Richard.

No offence Richard :-)

I personally think think that EMA was a brilliant idea, that gave teenagers the chance to study and have a bit of money to survive on. To take that away is IMHO disgraceful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 05:18 PM

So Arthur, will you be holding your preferred Condomheads to account?


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 06:20 PM

I don't mind fighting individual things.

What I don't like is the accusation that the Tories are to blame for our almighty debt. How long have they been in power?
Labour left a massive debt, whether anybody thinks it their fault, I don't particularly car.

I didn't vote Tory, so get off your high horse Richard.

What i do know, is that in comparison, you are rich and I am broke.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 08:17 PM

It has been pointed out to me that I have been referring to the "Tory" Government.

It is of course a coalition government, the opportunity to form which was first offered to Gordon Brown and refused by him.

By default we now have a Tory/LibDem coalition, which is trying to deal with the mess they inherited.

That situation is entirely the fault of "Bottler" Brown, as is the raft of spoilers signed by said Brown in the interval between the announcement of the election and election day.

Not so much a wash up period, more a stitch up period.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 05:15 AM

One of the success stories of health and social welfare in recent years has been Sure Start. When our health authority was discussing supporting it at the outset, we had the usual reservations that it could all end a political stunt, but it worked, and still works. Our investment of what is in real terms a small amount of NHS funds has paid long term dividends.

So, whilst I was pleased when the Chancellor announced in the spending statement that Sure Start will be protected in cash terms, I was more curious about his wish to "return it to its original focus."

Now, what the Chancellor, like all his predecessors before him failed to point out was that protection is not the same as changing the method of funding. Councils now have to make priority decisions and as part of Sure Start is wrapped in the early intervention grant, which is subject to the 11% cut, councils will have to box clever to retain the overall service, even if the buildings are retained.

The NHS input into the funding has been through public health, which is at present a NHS (PCT) function. The government wish, (which most in public health agree) for the public health function to go back to local government, like pre 1974.

So my view is that as public health has more influence over council funding, public health success stories such as Sure Start will have powerful advocates within council structures.

It will be interesting to see if this is enough. The coalition government have said there are no sacred cows, and this chancellor is not averse to disowning his own pledges, especially if he moves the decisions to town halls.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Stu
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 07:26 AM

The tories are ideologically opposed to the NHS and have a real contempt for socially progressive policies like the EMA, the minimum wage etc. The real problem is that the majority of people in this country actually want the social structure of the country to be supported by government; this helps provide a framework for individual development. The tories however, unable to rid themselves of the myopic fog of self-interest and social ineptness want to hold fast and develop a system that rewards greed and selfishness; the reason they allow tuition fees to be hiked is because it won't effect them. 80 of the MPs who voted are millionaires who received a free university education.

There's no doubt the NHS needs sorting out - the glut of managers protecting their own jobs and disregarding real clinical issues is a real problem.

That the government is a coalition is irrelevant; the Lib Dems actually lost seats in the last election and there are currently acting as political human shields and protecting Cameron et al from the flak they so richly deserve. This is a tory government and it causes problems for the vast majority of ordinary people. Ignore that at your peril - as Thatcher found out with the poll tax.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 08:41 AM

""The real problem is that the majority of people in this country actually want the social structure of the country to be supported by government;""

Absolutely true Jack, and since that majority includes a majority of Tory voters, the mooted destruction of the NHS is a complete red herring.

I'm sure you are aware that no party could survive the dismantling of the NHS. It would be political suicide.

""There's no doubt the NHS needs sorting out - the glut of managers protecting their own jobs and disregarding real clinical issues is a real problem.""

On that point we are in complete agreement. Get rid of empire building pen pushers and bean counters, and the NHS will be as efficient and viable as it ever was.

Health budgets simply do not need to pass through all these levels of administration, each removing significant sums, such that the amount remaining for the front line is just over half of the sum input at government level.

The treasury could easily disburse a budget to each hospital, and with a bursar handling distribution, and doctors making decisions (as they once did) on the basis of clinical need.

Earlier this year an enquiry report stated that in 2008, the latest year for which they had figures, out of an NHS total budget of £68 billion, just £36 billion reached the front line.

If correct, that is an apalling misuse of finances, but not unexpected because Labour government always involves a massive expansion of bureaucracy.

If the Coalition is failing to handle this, it will be because they should be specifying which jobs should go, and making sure that those jobs are not in the front line.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 08:50 AM

Surely you all know the Tory attitude towards the working class and education has always been, they're here to WORK, that's all they need to know.
And now they seem determined to prevent that even.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 08:55 AM

Same here in the US...

I mean, this is insanity... If the UK and the US want to become more competitive in a global economy they had better get back to educating their people... If you make it too costly then don't complain that you can't compete...

Duhhhhhh!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 09:20 AM

Bobert, as I understand it US students have for many years had to take jobs to finance their university education.

Can you say "Working my way through college"?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 09:56 AM

Sadly yet again we are subjected to the rants of the cyber equivalent of a pub bore. He seems to have this need to join in every conversation regardless how little he knows about any of the subjects. Once he is proved wrong, he goes off and starts a thread of his own.

At first he comes across as a well behaved boy (mostly!), but then he seems to have a problem with accepting the views of others. Now I have got quite annoyed with this in the past but have come to realise he's not being rude he just finds the truth difficult to accept. Now I know this sounds precious but I find when you ask him a question he just seems to get confused and wander.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 10:14 AM

The past government, and eventually this one, expect the NHS to have targets and attain them. This requires data collecting etc., something which the trusts would rather not do. it costs money, it costs salaries.

However, two things; whilst there are too many people with manager or equivalent in their title still, (and it has dropped drastically in the last five years,) there are not enough managers. or to put it a less provocative way, there is not enough efficient management.

Expanding the role of clinicians to undertake management responsibility has been a very good recent development. However, please don't fall into the Daily M*il trap... If you wish a doctor to go from full time clinical duties to 50% management time, you not only lose 50% of a doctor but gain 50% of a manager. Half his or her salary is then a management overhead. On the basis that over 80% of consultants employed by NHS trusts have non clinical duties of a management / leadership type, with varying degrees of time commitment, you are increasing management budget by over 30%. And you haven't employed a single manager. More over, you are "letting the doctors and nurses run the service."

Quite;

And hence the need for good strategic management, which as somebody parachuted in years ago to look at it, I can say it is getting better, but still has a long way to go.

Just to agree with the armchair socialists for once; I too am (and I use the word genuinely) afraid of the NHS reforms that are in the white paper. GPs partners are private businessmen with (quite legitimately) business interests. To hand over commissioning of almost £90Billion of tax payers money to independent contractors to manage is the point where many will say "Bring back the managers!"

Funny old world......


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Lox
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 10:20 AM

Yes.

Tha financial crisis is all browns fault.

It is merely an uncanny coincidence that the rest of the world is also going through a massive financial banking crisis.

The British Mess and the Global Mess are of course entirely unrelated and to let Brown off the hook by making the outlandish suggestion that they are somehow related is clearly preposterous left wing twaddle.

For it is clear that the Tories would never have allowed the banks so much freedom, believing as they do in properly regulating the markets and that trade need to be inhibited lest it be carried out irresponsibly.

So in conclusion, the British Mess is entirely Gordon Browns fault, and now that the tories are in power the Banks and free enterprise wil be forced to scale down their risk.


I think I've got it now.


PS, the pope is the head of Al Qaeda and Bears prefer the privacy of an en-suite, ideally with a bidet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 10:45 AM

And, meanwhile, Tory (and associated bum-boy) liars attach youth education.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 10:55 AM

2006 New Labour imposed tuition fees, in spite of statements that they would never do so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Gervase
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 11:10 AM

Sadly yet again we are subjected to the rants of the cyber equivalent of a pub bore.
Ritchie's talents for pompous self-description are growing by the day!


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Lox
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 11:31 AM

"as I understand it US students have for many years had to take jobs to finance their university education."

And in America the opportunity divide between rich and poor is more pronounced than in any other nation in the industrialized world.

Many students have to drop out of college becuae the pressure is simply too great.

Trying to concentrate on a degree whilst exhausted from working the night shift for nothing, coupled with the insecurity of a low paid unprotected job is hard enough, and worse when the job ends for whatever reason.

Instead of devoting time and energy to ones studies/research, one spends ones time running round from interview to interview worrying about whether one will continue to have a roof over ones head next month.

Some make it through, but not all.

Serendipity allows a few to make it, not just hard work.

Somne people who work extremely hard and are extremely focussed on their degree end up unable to complete their degrees for the reasons I've explained above.

This is best described as education being a privilege reserved for those born into the right circumstances.

It should be the privilege of every citizen in a civilized society.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Lox
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 11:36 AM

I would remind you that Churchill described the NHS as an unrealistic idealistic and unsustainable dream.

The government that introduced it did so despite a deficit many time larger the one we have today.

When the Millionaires in Cabinet get together to sort out the hundreds of billions of Tax pounds that are swindled annually out of the public purse, including the money they swindle out of the tax budget, then I may begin to believe that they are not a bunch of cruel selfish fuckwits.

Till then, we must suffer the ConDemnation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 12:08 PM

"Tories and associated bum boys."

Now there's an insult to cork the claret!

Not only are people who work for companies that lend support to the CBI guilty of being Tory, but Gays too . Well done Richard, your wish for a fair society is not that bad after all if we can get away with casual hate of anybody different to ourselves.......

Just one point Lox; once we no longer have the cruel selfish fuckwits, what will we have? Just in case anybody noticed, Labour MPs fiddled their expenses too. Some of them are multi millionaires with off shore funds for that matter. (As such people are being called Tories, might as well take the piss where I can.)

I do agree with Lox though about introducing The NHS when the post war coffers were a wee bit on the low side. The NHS is the jewel in our country's crown for me. However, before we get too misty eyed, let's not forget that originally it included full dental care and free prescriptions, both of which were phased out as being too expensive at the time. By a Labour government.

(Incidentally, the public sector being what it is, free prescriptions would be about cost neutral. I am surprised that it is not introduced as a vote winner. As the vast majority are free anyway, the cost of administering the paying ones just about matches the gross profit from them.)

Vote for Steamin' WIllie? Naw, bad enough kissing babies without nodding in sage agreement with weird beards. A vote too far that one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 12:22 PM

"Tories and associated bum boys." now Bridge attacks homosexuals. Maybe Joe Offer would be good enough to tell us what he doesn't allow his Pet Richard to say ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 12:36 PM

Fair do's chaps, not often old Bridge Too Far, gets to state two of his betes noir, in the same sentence.
Who will he show prejudice against next?


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Lox
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 01:50 PM

Let me explain for all you in the slow lane.

Richard hasn't said anything about homosexuals, except insofar as many Gays would object to being compared to Nick Clegg.

What he has done is accurately describe Clegg and Cable as Camerons 'Bitches', 'Hoes', 'sex toys'.

And lets face it - Cameron is definitely not the one on the receiving end.

Its a very good metaphor.


And its an incredible testament to how weak minded you pathetic flag wavers are that the best you can do to debate him is take his pretty ordinary, non controversial quips and use them as evidence that he wants to shoot someone or that he hates homosexuals.

Relax - Gay pride will be on again next year and you're freedom to have consensual sex with members of the same sex will remain unfettered despite richards 'heinous' comments.

Just remember, please, to use a condom and a WATER based lubricant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 02:08 PM

For all those bored to tears with this current series of threads, take a couple of minutes to watch the late Mick Green's two sons in action with the last Pirates' drummer before their dad died.

http://www.thegreenbrothers.co.uk

The short video is in the media section.

In case you didn't know, Mick Green was guitarist in Johnny Kidd & the Pirates between 1962 and 1964, then in the Pirates from 1976 to 2010.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 02:19 PM

Thanks Bonzo, It will keep us from falling asleep !


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 02:23 PM

It's amazing the amount of priciple you have to give up, in order to excuse a bigot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:20 AM

Having just woke up again...

Am I dreaming, or is bigotry being laced with revisionism? At least wait till the offensive comments are so far up the thread nobody gives a toss to check!

Sorry Lox, political correctness isn't one of my vices, and I have no problem describing your comments about gays as being a bit of a pain in the arse.

However, the utopian day dreams of M'Unlearned friend and his mates would, I thought, have been a bit more inclusive? I thought only fat cats and their lackies were barred at the door...


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:47 AM

""For it is clear that the Tories would never have allowed the banks so much freedom, believing as they do in properly regulating the markets and that trade need to be inhibited lest it be carried out irresponsibly.

So in conclusion, the British Mess is entirely Gordon Browns fault, and now that the tories are in power the Banks and free enterprise wil be forced to scale down their risk.


I think I've got it now.
""

With respect Lox, I'm not sure you have got it.

1. Brown sold off or squandered a quantity of assets which would have reduced the effect of the crisis in this country to a fairly minor and manageable level.

2. The Tories did not deregulate the banks to anything like the extent that Gordon Brown did. He removed the last safeguards.

3. His raid upon all our pensions was not the fault of US bankers, or Tory politicians.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 07:16 AM

""And in America the opportunity divide between rich and poor is more pronounced than in any other nation in the industrialized world.

Many students have to drop out of college becuae the pressure is simply too great.

Trying to concentrate on a degree whilst exhausted from working the night shift for nothing, coupled with the insecurity of a low paid unprotected job is hard enough, and worse when the job ends for whatever reason.
""

In light of that I should have thought you would be pleased that on this side of the pond they don't have to find one penny for tuition up front.

In addition, if and when they are earning £21,000 they will be paying back about £30 per calendar month. If they drop below, or lose a job payments cease until they pass the threshold again.

The total cost for graduates earning £21,000 and paying £30 pcm for thirty years is a maximum of £10,800. I wish I could get a 30 year loan at that rate of interest.

The universities will be able to offer more places and a wider range of subjects, and those universities which want to charge above £6000 will have to prove that they are offering places to more students from disadvantaged backgrounds.

Given that New Labour's proposed graduate tax would require payment of 2% of earnings by all graduates earning above the personal allowance of approximately six and a half thousand until, I'd say this doesn't sound so bad.

And of course the maintenance grant (also unique to this side of the pond) is being increased.

My son left university with a double first and a debt of over £18,000, which he had cleared without any particular hardship in ten years, as well as buying a house and starting a family.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 08:27 AM

"He seems to have this need to join in every conversation regardless how little he knows about any of the subjects. Once he is proved wrong, he goes off and starts a thread of his own."

With respect Richie, that doesn't appear to be so. If you check his posting record, about 75% of the political threads to which he contributes were actually started by him, so he is 'joining in' relatively few. Indeed it would appear to be yourself and Bonzo who join in with almost all his conversations once he has set them up.

As well as this thread I would refer you to -

Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
Charles and Camilla attacked in car?
Con-Dems restrict peaceful protests
Now only the rich can have lawyers...(UK )
Subsidy to Ireland to increase UK deficit
The latest (Rupert) Murdoch Menace
Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?

Regards
the other RB


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 10:03 AM

I'd just like to say that whilst everybody on this thread has a bad word to say about the clerical staff of the NHS - I think they do an important job. Also over the many years I have looked after my wife - nearly forty now, they have been kind and courteous and have worked hard on our behalfs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 10:45 AM

I didn't say a bad word about clerical NHS types, I deal with such people all day and was proud to chair an NHS trust. Horses for courses, and my concern is not the usual too many managers, but not enough management capacity.

In fact, I am in many ways such a bod myself since retiring from my business and spending my time interfering in the NHS as a regulator.

As ever, the media confuse management with administration. Many of the clipboard jockeys wandering round a ward are collecting data. Some of data helps improve the quality of care, such as clinical audit, (doctors spend a hell of a lot of time on clinical audit to inform improvements,) and some clipboarding? Well, not wanting to get into a discussion about the rights and wrongs of targets and centralised information but that's where it comes from. So when you go on the Doctor Foster website to see if your local hospital is doing good, it's the legion of administrators collecting and collating that data.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 11:19 AM

I didn't write that last message


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 12:20 PM

Much on tv tonight Bonzo ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 01:18 PM

I wrote it.

Dunno how that happened?

Thought your balls had dropped till I noticed we seemed have similar backgrounds......


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Lox
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 02:37 PM

Bonzo and Richie, are you really that sad that the only thing you have to do in your life is participate in something that bores you to tears?


This may be a boring site, but at least those others who post here aren't bored by it.



There is only one thing more pathetic and that is the attempt to define an attack on the lib dems and a humorous reference to public school 'fag' culture as an attack on homosexuality.


Lots of weak and pathetic clutching at straws and nothing of substance.

_______________________________________________________


On a wholly unrelated point,


Don, You said the crisis was "entirely" Gordon Browns fault.

That suggests that nobody else played a part.

You may find fault with GB to your hearts content - it isn't hard - but saying the crisi is his fault in entirety is stooping below your usual standards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 05:53 PM

""You may find fault with GB to your hearts content - it isn't hard - but saying the crisi is his fault in entirety is stooping below your usual standards.""

Seriously Lox, we are talking about the most hands on politician for twenty years. This is the man who made Blair's position so uncomfortable that Blair commented that he was uncontrollable.

The decisions as Chancellor were his, and his alone, and he bullied any who disagreed into submission.

His style didn't change one jot when he pushed Blair over the edge to become PM.

Who do you suppose thought it was a good idea to sell off all our gold reserves at rock bottom prices, after having squandered the contents of the government coffers on inefficient and often plain daft so-called "initiatives"?

It certainly wasn't the treasury.

The dictionary definition of a Gordon Brown initiative would be "trial and error", error being the operative word.

So yes, I do blame him.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:26 PM

Just to get back to the original topic of youth education, the Institute of Fiscal Studies has concluded that Educational Maintenance Allowance is cost-effective.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:34 PM

Lox, that programme on the long term effectiveness of salicylic acid plasters on corns will be repeated tomorrow on 322 digibox.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Lox
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:45 PM

Richie - you're welcome to it.

You're welcome to do anything you like.

As boring as this place may be, I log on because I have a interest in the subjects being discussed.

I do it to get my mind off my work for half an hour.

PS - I'm a musician - another reason hy I contribute to a music website.

Why are you here?

Your life really must be a non event.


Is this the only way you have of getting attention?


Hooking up with Bozo the clown pretending to be busy and rich when in fact you are hardly literate and so bored with your lives that you spend them stalking a load of old folkies online.


I would pity you - but you're just repulsive enough for that thought to linger more than a few miliseconds before moving on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Lox
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:48 PM

Don.

You said "entirely" meaning that there are no other contributing factors.

That is clearly a very long way from the truth no matter which side of the fence you sit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:54 PM

Lox,Boots chemist have them on offer until the 28nd December 2010. Watch the programme first and make your own mind up. Also,Boots are offering double points when you buy two.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 07:20 PM

It can't be Gordon Brown's fault, as ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING, is Maggie Thatcher's fault.
According to some blindly prejudiced people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 07:24 PM

I have received numerous complaints about "Richie Black" and "Bonzo3legs," asking that these people be silenced. I acknowledge these complaints, and I sympathize with them. Knowing, as you do, that Mudcat doesn't silence people, you may wish to consider responding to these people with silence.
Thank you.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: GUEST,Dave Eyre
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 03:42 AM

The financial crisis was a wunch of bankers lending money they didn't have to people who couldn't afford to pay it back. (And rewarding themselves handsomely in the process - and doing their very best not to pay tax on their bonuses).

The Vodafone company had spent years arguing that putting profits through Luxembourg was legal and has set aside £2.1 billion aside in the accounts to pay when they lost the legal case.

This government settled for half of that - and now allows them to put their profits through Luxembourg.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:23 AM

Hey Joe!

With excellent diplomacy like that, I hear there is a job going after the sad demise of Richard Holbrooke...

Dave Eyre points out that bankers ran riot and multi national companies have evaded the moral (if not the strictly legal) principle of contributing to the society your goods or services deliver to.

But you know, the other contributors are correct (in my opinion) of finding political scapegoats too. Bankers and businesses can only operate in the regulatory climate, and it is the job of government to set and regulate said climate.

In fairness to politicians of both sides, this is not easy when you wish the companies to provide employment in your country when they can just up sticks and find a country to base themselves in that needs less taxes to run their affairs. hence the push (led by the aforementioned Mr Brown) to create a more level playing field. Ok, it was him who broke the greenhouse windows with his ball, but at least he suggested putting loose netting above the garden fence to protect it in future.

Interestingly, it was Cameron in opposition who kept declaring a Tory government would regulate more strongly. That made his back benchers drop the marmalade on their copy of the FT....


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:43 AM

Willie, you know the types of schools that the con-dems, a creature headed by two little c's went to. I know those types of school. Do you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 06:47 AM

Naw, left school with three CSE grade 1, just enough to scrape an apprenticeship with the National Coal Board. Mind you, on the academic front, I did (much later in life) write a PhD thesis accredited through two universities in two countries, hence two certificates on the old wall. Making up for it I suppose.

The work I do with universities now are in three very different fields, which to an otherwise academic ignoramus like me, tells me a lot about the paper tiger we call "educated."

So... addressing your point; I genuinely hope that the meritocracy that has been sweeping through the public sector over the last twenty years is weeding such things out to a degree. Of course, I am talking about those who run the country, not those who run for public office. Labour will always want the odd Skinner, and the tories will always want the odd "old school tie." T'was ever thus.

The most senior person in the NHS would be the national Chief Executive. David had the same level of education as me, (and nearby for that matter,) and he is an ex member of The British Communist Party. His survival from the last government to this one does give weight to the move towards what you have rather than where you got it?

Public bodies signing up to stunts such as Equal Opportunities etc has made it harder to get in through your tie and and easier to get in through your brain.

Of course, our chinless wonder "old school tie" friends can do well in this climate. Sadly, educational attainment is still much higher in public schools than state run ones.

(American dudes reading; public means private. It's ok, we can handle it, it is our language don't forget!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:50 AM

"I have received numerous complaints about "Richie Black" and "Bonzo3legs," asking that these people be silenced. I acknowledge these complaints, and I sympathize with them. Knowing, as you do, that Mudcat doesn't silence people, you may wish to consider responding to these people with silence."

Of course nobody is allowed to disagree with the socialist/liberal hoardes are they??


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Lox
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 03:21 PM

Bonzo,

You support the Government.

The Liberals are in Government.

Duh!


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 03:25 PM

`Of course nobody is allowed to disagree with the socialist/liberal hoardes are they??`


Of course you are. Continue to do so. As for me, I`m likely to be--in certain circumstances--the most right-wing sonuvabitch you ever encountered. This horseshit about Mudcat being Liberal or liberal--well, lemme have some of what you`re smoking. In this instance you`re speaking outta yer arse. Admit it and move on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:00 PM

""Interestingly, it was Cameron in opposition who kept declaring a Tory government would regulate more strongly. That made his back benchers drop the marmalade on their copy of the FT....""

Indeed it was, and look who is the first to slide past the point with another snide comment about schools.

The Labourites want as usual to have it both ways. The Tories warned Brown, and called for more regulation, but they are still accused of favouring the rich and the big corporations.

Now if I were ever inclined to indulge in a little class bigotry, I would first do my homework and try to develop a moderately consistent condemnation.

When Tony Blair and William Hague stood opposite one another, it was Blair who was the dreaded "public schoolboy", and Haig who got his education at a local "Comprehensive" school.

The lefties didn't seem to have much to say about that.

Go figure.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tory liars attack youth education
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:09 PM

If there`s a guy I love and also disagree with more frequently, I don`t know who it is. Don, you da man!


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