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Why do folk music radio programs fail?

*#1 PEASANT* 15 Dec 10 - 05:46 PM
GUEST,999 15 Dec 10 - 05:48 PM
GUEST,aeola 15 Dec 10 - 06:02 PM
GUEST,999 15 Dec 10 - 06:07 PM
Herga Kitty 15 Dec 10 - 06:10 PM
Joe Offer 15 Dec 10 - 06:24 PM
Seamus Kennedy 15 Dec 10 - 06:27 PM
johnadams 15 Dec 10 - 06:31 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 15 Dec 10 - 07:19 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 15 Dec 10 - 07:20 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 15 Dec 10 - 07:24 PM
kendall 15 Dec 10 - 07:39 PM
dwditty 15 Dec 10 - 07:51 PM
Crowhugger 15 Dec 10 - 08:19 PM
Joe_F 15 Dec 10 - 08:40 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 15 Dec 10 - 09:16 PM
Don Firth 15 Dec 10 - 09:34 PM
Seamus Kennedy 15 Dec 10 - 10:22 PM
mousethief 15 Dec 10 - 11:09 PM
MGM·Lion 16 Dec 10 - 02:17 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Dec 10 - 02:32 AM
mikesamwild 16 Dec 10 - 04:19 AM
GUEST,LDT 16 Dec 10 - 04:59 AM
GUEST,LDT 16 Dec 10 - 05:01 AM
GUEST,LDT 16 Dec 10 - 05:14 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 16 Dec 10 - 05:40 AM
Dave Hanson 16 Dec 10 - 07:15 AM
DMcG 16 Dec 10 - 07:24 AM
GUEST,glueman 16 Dec 10 - 07:40 AM
kendall 16 Dec 10 - 07:57 AM
Howard Jones 16 Dec 10 - 09:15 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 16 Dec 10 - 09:53 AM
Folknacious 16 Dec 10 - 03:03 PM
GUEST,999 16 Dec 10 - 03:28 PM
fat B****rd 16 Dec 10 - 03:35 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 16 Dec 10 - 04:23 PM
Folknacious 16 Dec 10 - 06:32 PM
GUEST,Dave Eyre 16 Dec 10 - 06:43 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Dec 10 - 06:46 PM
GUEST,999 16 Dec 10 - 06:57 PM
Spleen Cringe 16 Dec 10 - 07:22 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 16 Dec 10 - 07:26 PM
Richard Bridge 16 Dec 10 - 07:33 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Dec 10 - 09:02 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 16 Dec 10 - 11:50 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 Dec 10 - 12:47 AM
GUEST,kendall 17 Dec 10 - 03:26 AM
GUEST,LDT 17 Dec 10 - 04:17 AM
GUEST,LDT 17 Dec 10 - 04:18 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 17 Dec 10 - 04:43 AM
Spleen Cringe 17 Dec 10 - 04:54 AM
GUEST,LDT 17 Dec 10 - 04:56 AM
Bernard 17 Dec 10 - 06:43 AM
mikesamwild 17 Dec 10 - 07:16 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 17 Dec 10 - 10:24 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 Dec 10 - 10:25 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 17 Dec 10 - 10:34 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 Dec 10 - 10:49 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 17 Dec 10 - 08:26 PM
Jeri 17 Dec 10 - 08:35 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 18 Dec 10 - 10:36 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 18 Dec 10 - 10:25 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 18 Dec 10 - 11:05 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 18 Dec 10 - 11:23 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Dec 10 - 12:57 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 19 Dec 10 - 01:44 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Dec 10 - 03:54 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 19 Dec 10 - 08:19 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 19 Dec 10 - 09:25 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Dec 10 - 01:26 PM
GUEST,AndyC 20 Dec 10 - 08:55 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 20 Dec 10 - 11:07 PM
frogprince 20 Dec 10 - 11:25 PM
Folkiedave 21 Dec 10 - 01:38 AM
Waddon Pete 21 Dec 10 - 04:27 AM
GUEST,AndyC 21 Dec 10 - 07:12 AM
GUEST,Desi C 21 Dec 10 - 08:03 AM
Little Hawk 21 Dec 10 - 08:11 AM
GUEST,Granthampie 21 Dec 10 - 08:56 AM
Bernard 21 Dec 10 - 11:58 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 21 Dec 10 - 12:51 PM
Stringsinger 21 Dec 10 - 03:05 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 21 Dec 10 - 07:24 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 21 Dec 10 - 08:57 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 21 Dec 10 - 09:08 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 21 Dec 10 - 09:15 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 21 Dec 10 - 10:03 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 22 Dec 10 - 02:16 PM
GUEST,999 22 Dec 10 - 02:33 PM
Bruce from Bathurst 23 Dec 10 - 03:08 AM
GUEST,Harry from Edinburgh 23 Dec 10 - 05:59 AM
GUEST,Desi C 23 Dec 10 - 08:05 AM
Bobert 23 Dec 10 - 08:39 AM
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Bobert 23 Dec 10 - 09:10 AM
Mr Red 23 Dec 10 - 10:12 AM
GUEST,Dave Eyre 23 Dec 10 - 01:38 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Dec 10 - 10:46 PM
Bobert 24 Dec 10 - 08:36 AM
Fidjit 24 Dec 10 - 08:49 AM
bruceCMR 24 Dec 10 - 09:37 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 24 Dec 10 - 09:56 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 24 Dec 10 - 10:49 AM
Mr Red 24 Dec 10 - 11:37 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 24 Dec 10 - 12:12 PM
josepp 24 Dec 10 - 12:33 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Dec 10 - 02:50 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 24 Dec 10 - 03:09 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Dec 10 - 04:30 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Dec 10 - 01:33 AM
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Subject: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 05:46 PM

Ok I hope this is general enough:

Add in your suggestion and we will see what we all get!

1. Blending of too much singer songwriter and off topic music with older trad under a program categorized as " folk " or "traditional" too muc "folk Like"

ok I will wait and see...

Conrad
    Yeah, we'll let it go. -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 05:48 PM

Nice try. Take yer meds.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,aeola
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:02 PM

don't know but I hear Folkwaves on East Midlands BBC radio is being axed!


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:07 PM

Can I buy a vowel . . . .


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:10 PM

Define fail..... (then have a think about defining "folk music radio program")


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:24 PM

There was a long-running folk radio program in Detroit - Matt Watroba's Folk Like Us. It was one of those legendary programs, but yet it died. I think there just weren't enough people listening, despite the fact that it was a terrific program.

Utah Phillips had the Loafer's Glory program. It was terrific, but I think that eventually he just ran out of material. Luckily, it's being made available at http://www.thelongmemory.com/ - 28 of the 99 programs are now available for download.

Oscar Brand's Folksong Festival has been on the air since December, 1945, and is broadcast every Saturday, 10pm-11pm (Eastern Time), on WNYC-AM 820 in New York City and can be heard live worldwide in streaming audio: http://www.wnyc.org/stream/am.asx. Now, if we could download every one of Oscar's programs that has been broadcast since 1945, would we need anything more?


-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:27 PM

Ask Mary Cliff on WAMU, Conrad.
She's been on the air for 30-odd years with her Traditions show.first on WETA and then on WAMU.

Then ask Gene Shay at WXPN in Philadelphia. Same thing.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: johnadams
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:31 PM

Joe, many thanks for that link to Utah Phillips. He's one of my all time heroes. What a treasury!


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 07:19 PM

I know mary-is she still on ordinary radio


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 07:20 PM

Ok let me clarify-why do progeria fail-not which shows are on the air


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 07:24 PM

Ok fail:when a program calling itself "folk"or "traditional"is axes even though most folkie listeners approve of it


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: kendall
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 07:39 PM

WERU in Blue Hill Maine. Their signal must reach at least 100 people.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: dwditty
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 07:51 PM

I am not sure, but it just might be about the $$. How un-folk- like.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Crowhugger
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 08:19 PM

Conrad, I gather you're talking about shows that program mainly or exclusively UK-born traditional music and its colonial descendants, is that right?

In the Toronto area, so-called "roots" shows seemed to fare better than some niche programming. These programmed mostly non-UK, non-European folk, both traditional and fusions that varied according to the musical ancestry & tastes of the musician and their collaborators. I loved these shows because of the mix of past and present. I'd never have the feeling of enjoying a museum piece, or that I was hearing tradition being mangled, rather it was consistently alive, growing, beautiful, and current. (Dare I add: There was no angst about whether the music was or wasn't suitably pure.) I'd love to name the shows whose music left this favourable impression on me but I haven't tuned in or thought about them for long enough that I've forgotten. Almost certainly they were on CBC or the university stations, or maybe PBS from south of the border.

Over the last 5-10 years, live music-making has replaced most radio and a lot of other recorded music in my life. Back when I was listening to more radio, it seemed to be an era of proliferating roots shows, which causes me to wonder: Are demographics a possible reason for "folk" shows dying?

In the large urban centres of Canada, the percentage of population that hails from UK is shrinking steadily, so I wouldn't expect a show based on such content to flourish. I would expect its largest and most loyal audience to be those with an historical and sentimental attachment to the music.

Though come to think of it, I don't know if the so-called roots shows have had trouble surviving or not. Maybe someone else knows if the failing Conrad talks about is a problem faced by all small-niche programming these days. That info could shed some light on his question.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Joe_F
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 08:40 PM

Perhaps because there is no point to broadcasting at all, now that people can order up what they want when they want it, and get together with other people to exercise their vocal cords with?

I don't belong here, I know.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 09:16 PM

I've hosted a show for 30 years BECAUSE I blend singer-songwriter and off topic stuff with older trad on a program that is catagorized as folk.

Folk music is a living tradition and the threads with the contemporary folk community are evident for those willing to understand what "FOLK" music really means.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 09:34 PM

KBCS-FM, Bellevue, Washington (across Lake Washington from Seattle), plays a lot of folk music, especially on weekends. Local DJs.

Wide variety of stuff. If what you're hearing at any given time isn't to your taste, just hang in. It'll probably be along pretty soon.

Don Firth

P. s. "Rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated."
                                                                      --Folk Music


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 10:22 PM

Oops - sorry Ron! Didn't mean to omit your good self.
Yes, Conrad, Mary is still on ordinary radio, WAMU 88.5 FM out of D.C. on Saturday night.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 11:09 PM

I'd say if a radio show fails it's because too few people listen to it. Just off the top of my head.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 02:17 AM

The tale is told of one of the great financiers [Rockefeller? Frick? ~ no matter: whoever] asked by a young man how to succeed.

"I can't tell you that, young man", he is said to have replied; "but I will tell you how NOT to succeed.

"Try to please everyone."

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 02:32 AM

Because a lot of folk music, (along with others) have lost their edge!.. and don't say much, anymore...so the folk artists just 're-package' the older styles, and topics, in which some just don't apply, like they did...but there's a lot of people regurgitating the past.
It doesn't have to be that way...I'd say, when you're writing...use the wisdom gained through the years, coupled with the exploratory nature of youth...and you might come up with something 'hot'. Speak to the common denominator of human emotions, but don't write lyrics that contain the word 'You' when addressing the listener. Nobody wants to be spoken 'down' to, as if you're turning them onto something 'new'....but if you say something that hits the 'common denominator', as per aforementioned, people's ears tend to perk up!

Oh, and unlike politics, don't address the LOWEST common denominator, of intelligence, but rather the most inside.....preferably the 'inside' (common denominator) that never gets spoken to!!!!

The Best To You,

GfS


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:19 AM

Mainstream radio seems to be driven by commercial or economic rules.
It is quite common for networking of a service from a central spot which is often a kiss of death to localism.

Unfortunately a local programme , which is great for up to date news of events and tasters has to pay its way.

In a time of financial cuts community radio which is subsidised is under threat.

Maybe we will come down to internet programmes put on by enthusiasts at their own expense. I can envisage a streamed interactive programme that would do what we do on these social networks. that could be quite inclusive, they could be streamed or downloaded later and cross time boundaries.

I'm sure we'll hear from people doing just that.

I'd like to know how many 'listeners' such programmes get nobody wants to be like the last of the great whales beaming it out to a diminishing population.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:59 AM

Maybe to put a more positive spin on it why not ask what people would like in a folk music radio program?

For me the ideal radio 'folk' show would be nice to have a young presenter (who's enthusiastic about the genre) and a nice mix of tunes and songs both archive (so its not all 'this is my new album I'm promoting' stuff) and new, with interviews with the artists.
And I do like weekly/daily/monthly a theme. ;)

And actually rather than a 'localized' program have something more national/global in taste.

24/F/UK


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 05:01 AM

I have found some of these elements in different programs but never all of them in one.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 05:14 AM

oh, and for anyone who didn't know I'm not swearing
24/F/UK
Means: 24 female UK


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 05:40 AM

Folk music isn't a homogenous sort of thing. Its unusual to find someone who can listen to all sorts of folk music. Usually within an hour the DJ will play something that irritates you beyond measure.

Also in England, rather than proper DJs - skilled at putting together a varied and listenable show. The show tends to fall into the hands of some performer or other. So they play rubbish by someone or other they think will help them in their career - the dire residents at some club they think they might get a gig. Or the organisers of festivals.

I dunno what the answer is. It must be a difficult job. Everybody seems to put out cds these days. When it was just club pros doing recordings - nearly every track had worked for a place in an act, and it 'worked' with an audience. Nowadays there aren't really enough clubs for acts to assess how good a song is.

Still you have the 'preserve the tradition no matter how dreadful gang' to blame for that. thats what led to the mass closure of clubs in the 1970's.

Nowadays people seem to record just as soon as they can play a song. Regardless of whether anyone likes it.

commonsense tells you the DJ can't have listened to half the stuff they play (they wouldn't have time) - so I suppose that's why they play so much lacklustre stuff.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:15 AM

They fail because the people with the purse strings insist that the programme should appeal to the masses, but the listeners who like pop drivel don't listen because it contains folk music and the folk music fans don't listen because they [ like Mike Harding ] play too much pop drivel.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:24 AM

I'm not sure it is true in the first place. Certainly, folk music radio programmes do fail, but so do lots of other genres as well as individual programmes.   But IF it is true, I think part of it is that folk (jazz, and some others ..) is seen by the audience as primarily something you actively do, rather than just listen to. That doesn't make producing a radio or television broadcast especially easy.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:40 AM

They fail because unlike jazz or classical music, folk has no advocates in high places.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: kendall
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:57 AM

It takes more than a teaspoon full of brains to understand it?
Seems to me that most modern music consists of yowling and pounding. Inane lyrics at high noise levels. They have nothing to say that is worth hearing so they simply crank up the volume.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 09:15 AM

What do you mean by 'fail'? Good programmes which attract a following get taken off because they somehow fail to meet the broadcaster's agenda. Other programmes carry on because they bring in a substantial audience, even though they may fail to connect with a sizeable number of folkies.

Success or failure is decided by the broadcasters, often for reasons which have nothing to do with musical content, rather than the wishes of the audiences.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 09:53 AM

I agree Howard. perhaps one factor is the fact that they seem to put folk programmes on at times when they are competing with more general broadcating fare.

Humph lyttleton's Jazz club ran from 12pm til 2 am - there was a definite sense of opting in. Jazz fans used to bitch about it - hey are we all supposed to be insominiacs in dark glasses?

Humph like Mike Harding had nothing to prove - both men had long successful careers as performers. the thing of course that made it work for Humph was that he was working at a time when jazz was very exciting fare - so many great players were still at the top of their form and producing great work. I think Humph got out when the jazz scene went off the boil.

I don't really think acoustic music has that sort of frisson of creative excitement about it at this moment of time. theres good stuff around - but not much of it really sets your mind on fire, and will attract a huge devoted audience.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Folknacious
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 03:03 PM

In the UK, it happens when the wrong people are presenting the wrong music on the wrong stations. Yes, I know, define "wrong". What I mean is: when people who are in touch with what's going on are presenting to people who aren't, and vice versa, on stations where the music doesn't fit in with the rest of the output, or what the management would like the rest of the output to be. BBC local stations are trying to get rid of music and become more speech centred, as happened a while back with the BBC World Service. Some of this is because, in cost cutting, a speech programme is even cheaper than a music programme because they don't have to pay PRS royalties.

Mike Harding works on BBC Radio 2 because it's somebody with a a vaguely well-known name who doesn't really know what's going on broadcasting largely to an audience who don't care much about what's going on, on a station supposed to broadcast 100% music. In that situation it's a cheap programme that ticks a few public service broadcasting boxes so it stays. No doubt the same applies with slightly different logic to Late Junction on Radio 3.

I can't see it getting any better.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 03:28 PM

`Seems to me that most modern music consists of yowling and pounding.`

Some of it is.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: fat B****rd
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 03:35 PM

You tell 'em, Bruce.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:23 PM

`Seems to me that most modern music consists of yowling and pounding.`

I could play you samples of English trad music that would fit that same description.

Different strokes for different folks as Sly would say.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Folknacious
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 06:32 PM

Seems to me that most modern music consists of yowling and pounding.

Yes, that's definitely a plus. Nothing like a good yowl and pound to wake up the dead people in the back row.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Dave Eyre
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 06:43 PM

Not really known many actually "fail". I have known them be swapped around the schedules. I have known them be closed down by management at the BBC - the usual reason here. One I know quite well was closed down and when they asked if the new show got more listeners we were told - that wasn't the point.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 06:46 PM

Sounds like some of you Bozos are blaming the audience for not liking what has become boring!....Ever think that it might be the writers/composers/players rehashing the same thing over and over again?
Perhaps a little innovation, maybe some original thought, maybe some outside licks....even something to say. Maybe using the wisdom of your age, coupled with discovery of youth...maybe even avoiding 'political overtones'...and bring the listener something more human, and insightful, in the 'give a shit department'! Perhaps a little CREATIVITY!..remember that, when you first heard something creative..how it felt?

Naw, just blame the audience, and go back to sleep!

GfS


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 06:57 PM

I am--for the first time--disappointed with you.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:22 PM

I have to say that me and my pal Sophie have been putting together a list of folk music shows in the UK along with broader-ranging shows that play some folk music, in the hope of finding people to play Folk Police records and it's not looking as good as we thought it would. I think I'm going to have to send a few CDs over to the other side of the Atlantic. Folk programming seems a bit healthier over there...

So... if you present a folk music show or know someone who does, please PM me with details... I have all the Beeb shows and a few community radio shows on my list, but apart from that, nada.

Cheers,

Spleen


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:26 PM

Well I sort of get where GfS is coming from.

Its as well other genres of music don't have to fulfil the excitement generating quotient though. Or all broadcasting would cease.

There are a lot of things conspiring to make the music so conservative and unchallenging these days.

Quite what will shake it all out the doldrums I don't know. As an artist and as a long term observer, I don't know. I wish that I did. I'm getting old now, and I hate that I'm leaving things in a worse state than when I found it.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:33 PM

Why do all the decent rock music radio stations fail? Remember Xfm when it started? Some pretty edgy rock and a fair smattering of metal and goth. Now wall to wall whiney indie shit. Because there are more whiney indie listener shits (or "chavs") who will buy the crap the advertisers push and fewer people who want any intelligent music.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 09:02 PM

Guest 999, Were you referring to me??...and why so?, if you were? The fact is, that 'folk' music was 'popular' for a short time, then turned into cliches. Do you think I am glad to see that happening??...N-O-O...but a lot of singer/songwriters/players have fallen down and have stopped innovating. I think they are trying to re-live their past, and wanting for it to come around...again!...but really, after some of the SUPERB artists of that time, you'd think that to keep it alive, we would need to CREATE more, instead of wishing for the 'good ol' days'...and blaming the audiences for NOT understanding the enjoyment WE HAD, discovering all that, for the first time. Let's focus on giving them something NEW, for the first time, as well!

Respectfully,

GfS


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 11:50 PM

Not quite sure what is happening in England, but the situation in the U.S. certainly has rough spots, but there are HUNDREDS of folk shows around the country.

Public radio has undergone change however. "Consultants" come in and tell managment that they need to sweep away their specialty programs because the individual shows do not build consistent audiences. Folk shows tend to build "appointment" audiences who tune in for that show and then go elsewhere for a week until their show returns.   These public radio stations adopt a more MOR sound that blends Americana with aging rock artists who no longer have an outlent, and the folk shows on these stations tend to be used as filler - if they remain.

Community radio stations fair a bit better as they adhere more to the goals of the original Public Broadcasting Act of 1967 and offer programs that are geared for a "fringe" audience that cannot be served by the commercial interests.

Let's face reality. FOLK MUSIC, either traditional or contemporary, is really a "fringe" format. I'm convinced that the audience is bigger than most people give it credit for, but it is not as large - or as recognizable for spending on product - as some of the other genres tend to be. Commercial stations go with advertisers, and advertistes cater to a different demographic than what constitutes the "folk" audience.

Still, with all the adversity and the multitude of entertainment options that are out there, folk music is holding strong on radio for the most part. Sirius XM Satellite offers a wonderful 24/7 channel that I think does an amazing job of blending the diverse styles of folk.

Folk music on the radio is alive and well, it must may not sound like Grandpa's folk music used to sound - it continues to live and be vibrant to the community that creates it - the true definition of what folk music should be. It is not a museum piece.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 12:47 AM

WFDU-Ron Olesko: Let's face reality. FOLK MUSIC, either traditional or contemporary, is really a "fringe" format. I'm convinced that the audience is bigger than most people give it credit for, but it is not as large - or as recognizable for spending on product - as some of the other genres tend to be. Commercial stations go with advertisers, and advertistes cater to a different demographic than what constitutes the "folk" audience."

So, do you think it possible to change that situation, if the 'folkies' got more serious, and creative????....or is it 'over' as far as ever getting into the mainstream, wider influence of things??

All ears, as to your opinion.

GfS


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 03:26 AM

Back in the 60s we had an illegal war in Viet Nam and the protesters numbered in the tens of thousands. The great folk scare was at its peak. Now, we have TWO illegal wars and the young people are silent as the grave. Why?

Former Senator, Secretary of state Ed Muskie told me, "You performers have far more power than any of us politicians." Why are we not using it?


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 04:17 AM

Silly idea but random thought came into my head. Why don't EDFSS do a radio show/channel/podcast? Featuring folk artists and 'documentaries'.

There's always complaints on mudcat of it being london-centric but a radio show might reach more of the country especially if it was online.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 04:18 AM

Or is there one and I've missed it?


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 04:43 AM

LDT.
A very simple answer to your question....Money...
To set up a Radio Station (even if only available on-line) is very expensive. and , very labour intensive.
Nice idea, but, I don't think that EFDSS could afford it. Great idea though.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 04:54 AM

LDT... not anything to do with the EFDSS, but google Folkcast.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 04:56 AM

@Ralphie
Aww...shame. In my head there would be a presenter in each county so the different shows could have that 'regional' feel yet be under the 'umbrella' of the 'brand'.
Would even in a 'podcast' style like folk song a day be too expensive?


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Bernard
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 06:43 AM

This is obviously a knee-jerk reaction to the demise of Folkwaves (Mick and Lester on Radio Derby), which is NOT a 'failed folk programme'.

Instead, it's one of a number of 'specialist music programmes' that the BBC has seen fit to withdraw from its schedules. This is a decision not made at a local level, but a deliberate shift in the BBC's local radio policy.

The same fate happened to the 'specialist music programmes' on BBC GMR in April 2006. 'Sounds of Folk', presented by Ali O'Brien and me, was one of the 'casualties', but we moved to Oldham Community Radio 99.7fm (also online) where we were welcomed with open arms, and are not far away from programme 200!

So what justification do you have for labelling these programmes as 'failed'?


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 07:16 AM

LDT good point and what I was trying to get across. Unless we, the folkies, do it for ourselves it is threatened.
The options seem to be
Community radio ( vulnerable and not always slick enough to attract many local listeners but can be podcast)
Pooled resources and using the internet facilities, EFDSS would be England's best hub but not likely

Or become part of a threatened Europen culture and value it like Gaelic in Ireland and Scotland


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 10:24 AM

Looks like many responders point out that the folk community is not big enough to have enough power to keep good folk programming going as much as it should.

Yes there are exceptions thanks for pointing them out, however, the consensus is that folk programming is under considerable pressure to go away.

Replacing radio with internet is a great option but it is more a parallel universe rather than actual radio which is more reflective of larger groups, nations, regions, states......

Perhaps my argument is that we need to use all modes and dimensions of broadcasting to keep the folk world as strong as it can be and primarily to increase the transmission of the music to others (that is to say when people hear songs they are more likely to learn and play them) and increase the popularity of the music (increase the audience, cd sales, potential for funding of education))

Many argue in favor of a sleepy small, introspective narrowly defined folk culture. Most likely nothing wrong with it. But will the culture so defined keep itself alive? Is this strategy not dropping the ball -giving up on our obligation to pass the legacy of the music and the cultures to future generations?

Adequate broadcast folk programming is IMHO essential.

I don't think that badgering governments and agencies is the way. If they can demonstrate that programs do not serve large enough audiences it is most likely their obligation to cut them. I see their point. Just so that point is honest and based upon real stats.

It is much more important to talk with performers, festival organizers, venue owners, and the audiences to get them to be as accessible as possible, to drive up the population of folk music lovers to the point that governments and corporations and agencies must take notice.

One can not over emphasize the importance of making folk music accessible at all levels, accessible to the max. Second it should do everything to get rid of aspects that make it appear to be narrow. Dump the stereotypes. What are these? I would suggest a move from ultra liberal politics to no political view. I would suggest getting rid of constant incorporation of other political issues- not that there aren't valid political issues out there but that linking folk anything to political anything automatically chops off part of the potential audiences.

If the folk community is to grow as it has to grow it needs to be appealing to absolutely everyone. No matter how much money a person has they need always to get in the door.

I always use the analogy of Daniel O'connel the Great Emancipator the great Dan of Irish Catholic politics.

When he arrived on the political scene the catholic political party was content to exclude most catholics by institution of high membership dues. O'connel realized that the problem was limiting accessibility. He moved to lower membership fees drastically and soon was talking to Monster Meetings, threatening the English government, and having himself a catholic elected to and seated in parliament.
(for which god rewarded him with a death via infected hemeroids! but I digress)

So that is why the price of a pint at a folk venue matters, that is why festival admission costs need to come down, that is why we need to maximize the number of sessions in relation to performances.

Lots of people are on the right path now. But given the fragile nature of folk broadcasting on mainstream conventional channels it appears we need more people on the right path and get more on the right path more often.

But that's just me- what do you think>

Conrad


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 10:25 AM

kendall: "Former Senator, Secretary of state Ed Muskie told me, "You performers have far more power than any of us politicians." Why are we not using it?"

My EXACT point!..both in this thread, and the other!
Reason:..As stated, in the other thread...."My thrust, was, and still is....that WE have the tools, to bring something better......but first, some of us must extract their thinking appendage out from their digestive tract!"

And coupled with, the mindset that causes 'libs' or the 'left', who a lot of 'folkies' want to identify with, seem to be those who wait for someone else, to do it for them!!...which is also a complaint from the 'right' about the 'left'.

Hell, this 'right'/'left' shit is making everyone dizzy!....anyway, I hope you get my point!

I would say, that if any 'folk' or folk-type music is going to have ANY impact, it needs to stay clear of the political polarizations, and be supportive, and point the way toward compassion, and deal with we humans, caring for each other, as OPPOSED, and in spite of the political crap...which, of course, IS the Oppressor!!..(Both sides)!

Stay tuned,..it might get better!

GfS


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 10:34 AM

Exactly guest from sanity well put!

Its like cutting up a wheel of cheese.

Every time a political, lifestyle or other issue prevails you remove a piece of cheese- a piece of potential- yes the cause maybe good but it is more important to retain all the pieces of cheese if we are to grow community.

Yes there is an important place for politics in music but the only fair way to go is to not let any one side dominate even for a moment.

Play music of all points of view and let your audience decide don't try to decide for them because when you do they will be out the door and its hard getting them back if ever.

Cheese for all~!

Conrad


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 10:49 AM

*#1 PEASANT*: "Play music of all points of view and let your audience decide don't try to decide for them because when you do they will be out the door and its hard getting them back if ever.
Cheese for all~!"

EXACTLY!!!(well said, yourself)....When Dylan did 'The Times They are a Changin'..folkies, especially 'protest folkies' glommed onto it, and stayed they, identifying with that mindset..the only thing they overlooked ..was changing with the times to stay relevant!!!

Now you have threads like: "Why do folk music radio programs fail?" because the old 'folkies' got boring and apathetic!...I hope 'Guest999' is still reading!

Its wake up time, oh heads up your ass dwellers! Time to dust off your instruments of change...and for God's sakes, stop spouting the political dead end. THEY CO-OPTED US, when WE had the ball rolling!..NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!

See ya' later!

GfS


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 08:26 PM

If people would stop over charging the public the public would have more money. Just an idea.

Money can be raised that will suffice if the group is large enough, dedicated enough and closely involved enough.

when the folk community is more or less bystanders seeking only entertainment you wont get as much support. If the community is comprised of those who participate closely with the traditions you will have more.

Lesson- to get more people more deeply involved teach more perform less and of course I suggest as well lower costs, provide access, exclude no one. keep performances human-that is smaller and more intimate.

It can be done
At least known barriers can be removed.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 08:35 PM

What the hell does that have to do with radio programs?

GfS, some performers may keep doing the same stuff, the same way. I haven't seen many performers do that unless they're fairly famous and locked into a routine by the audience's expectations. Personally, what I've seen more often is performers doing something new or different, and people turning their backs on them. Think "Garden Party".


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 10:36 AM

WFDU - Ron Olesko "Commercial stations go with advertisers, and advertistes cater to a different demographic than what constitutes the "folk" audience." "

Guest from Sanity: "So, do you think it possible to change that situation, if the 'folkies' got more serious, and creative????....or is it 'over' as far as ever getting into the mainstream, wider influence of things? "

How can you change a business that is designed to make money?   All businesses have a plan and it has been proven that a station will make more money if they advertise to a younger audience.

Public radio was designed to be protected from the commercial interests, but starting with the deregulation of radio, public radio had to turn its back on the Public Broadcasting Act of 1967 and worry about its own survival.   No one wanted to be regulated for a variety or reasons - freedom of speech as one. Operators did not want to be held under the strict rules that Fairness Doctrine held station owners accountable to. While it spoke to the "tell both sides" story that #1 Peasant is asking for, it is an unrealistic action and is against what freedom of speech is supposed to be about. You do not tell someone what to say, you provide forums for each side to say their piece.

Unfortunately, the downside of deregulation has brought us to the empty suit consultants that dictate the need to raise money for survival. The kind of donations that a folk audience brings is not enough to support some of the larger stations.   I've been lucky to volunteer at a station that has not been subject to these issues, but it is a reality for many.   ALL "fringe" audiences face danger of being eliminated on radio - and make no mistake, "folk music" is a FRINGE audience.   

Still, I am very hopeful. There is room, and there are outlets. The sky is not falling - just a bit cloudy.    If we look beyond the norms that we are used to, we will see that the media has many more opportunities than ever before.    THERE ARE MORE FOLK MUSIC RADIO SHOWS ON THE AIR IN 2010 THAN THERE WERE DURING THE FOLK REVIVAL. That is not just an opinion, that is a fact that has been backed up by research.   The problem is, the audience has diminished and each of these shows are playing to smaller audiences.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 10:25 PM

Ron Olesko..(and to jeri): "How can you change a business that is designed to make money?   All businesses have a plan and it has been proven that a station will make more money if they advertise to a younger audience."

Tha-a-a-t's right!!..So, WE(YOU) need to do your homework, and create something so fucking far out, that it DEMANDS to be heard..therefor creating your market,,,and your audience!

,,and by the way.....That is EXACTLY what is happening at my end of the world!

Got a gig at a radio station complex, and program, around just me and my music!...People seem to LOVE THIS STUFF!...even though, I'm not using guitars, and such, but rather, keyboards!..No Lyrics, in any but ONE song (original, written for another voice, not my own)..The rest is instrumental, using the criteria of telling the story, ACCURATELY..using NO WORDS! Little Hawk has heard just a tiny bit of it...depending how I play it, it is no less than 29:26 minutes, to 53:42.....and two things I get, when I've performed it in public..a guarantee.....some people in tears, and standing ovations...its gotten to the point where I now EXPECT it!...If this gets any bigger, you WILL hear it...from elsewhere, than me posting it on here....though, when I post it online, 'Mudcatters' will be the first to be alerted!

IT CAN BE DONE!

GfS


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 11:05 PM

why aren't folkies the masses

because they have their liberal heads way up their asses

sorry to generalize but thats about it

Conrad


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 11:23 PM

Conrad, I'm also sorry that you generalize.

Your definition of what is a "folkie" and what constitutes "the masses" are two different beasts. Folk traditions and folk music have NOTHING to do with the masses - never did, never will. Folk music springs from communities and does not require mass acceptance to be examples of what a folk tradition produces.

GfS - I'm not sure what "homework" I need to do. Good art, music and culture never make demands on the public.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 12:57 AM

Ron Olesko: "GfS - I'm not sure what "homework" I need to do. Good art, music and culture never make demands on the public."

No, silly...on the artists!!...to go further inside to pull out the gems...and doing homework...as in PRACTICING your little asses off!..or studying about frequencies, and emotions..etc etc.

GfS


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 01:44 AM

Very true - and there are a lot of wonderful writers who are doing that - and coming from a tradition but not replicating what has come before then. They honor and add to the tradition, creating songs that are part of their community and lives. Not the naval gazing that some people choose to create stereotypes, but folk artists building as part of the living tradition that has always created folk music.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 03:54 AM

I expect to see a resurgence in creativity. Harsh times press out the inner beauty within a lot of souls. If people are NOT creating, then I'd think the ones who are not, may just be receptive to those who are, and should 'find it a way back' to certain simple beauties they've known all along! Many of the masterpieces, of history came through the tumultuous times contemporary to the works!

I've been EXTREMELY fortunate that I've been caught up in that process..and shall continue to 'block and re-channel' those energies, and manifest them through music. It can be an extremely strict discipline...but a GREAT ride, at the same time!!

When I was younger, and more active, than in a period in between (did HUGE outdoor concerts in the L.A. area in the late 60's & 70's)...where over 17,000 people were there, and had airplay...a lot came together..but now..jeez, its coming at certain ones of us like a tidal wave!...and I guess we catch it..or drown!

A lot of what I post, to the other musicians, is just for that reason..to encourage those to take another VERY serious look at their instruments, and gifts!..If ever there was a time to be relevant, its NOW!!...and forget what you see in 'commercial' trends..I'm telling you from first hand experience that THERE IS a market NOW..but at the same time, you'd have to get back to reaching the inner hearts and soul of people..or you'll bore them to tears! No one, except numb-nuts are trying to 're-live' the past...but they MAY just want to pick up, from right before, when it started to get lame!

It's gotten to the point, where OTHER people are making bookings for me, because, as I was told, just three days ago, "People just HAVE to hear this stuff"..and stuff like, "I hadn't felt those emotions in 30 to 35 years!"..then she and her hubby proceeded to call a mutual friend who is a VP for a VERY VERY HUGE motion picture studio...meanwhile, someone else was doing the same thing..to another studio.....(Hint: This one has a kid on a bike, flying in front of the moon), the other one used to have a club for kids, in the name of a rodent.....there, I didn't say it, or violate any provisions, of release forms...but you got the idea!)

But nonetheless, you can circumnavigate the screwed up music mogul run industry, and there are ways to get a lot out there..we can do it ourselves!!..but first, you gotta have something to SAY, that doesn't rub peoples noses back into the shit they just came out of...and that is 'political' answers to the human side of things. If anything most all of the political horse crap, is to blame for most of the misery that this nation is experiencing...and one of the things that neither party is willing to do, is just leave us ALONE! They keep muscling their bullshit laws, regulations, fees, taxes, and every other thing known to mankind, into every nook and cranny of our lives!..FUCK 'EM!. We want our lives back!..and a lot of people out there, are responding to musical input that brings it home to them!

GfS


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 08:19 AM

While Ron, it may be ok for things to be small but what is wrong with being big. nothing so why fight it. why not simply work on the accessibility issues that keep growth from happening. why not work on the narrowness of political expression in the community and widen the tent to include all. don't know....

nothing wrong with folk music for the masses is there?

a larger ocean would lift more boats Ron....you are against that?
it would support more artists, more venues, and in the case of this thread more radio programmes.

Or you can just sit in your small room lock the door keep out the riff raff and watch the folk world contract even more.

here we search for solutions not simply proclaim the impossibility of finding them.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 09:25 AM

Conrad - your analogies make little sense.

No one is sitting in a little room and keeping out the "riff raff" - far from it.   Your version of the "folk world" does not seem to resemble what is really taking place, and it does not account for what actually resembles folk music.

You are searching for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, except in your own opinion.   There are more folk radio programs available today then ever before. The audience is there, it may not be as large as other genres in music, but as you probably realize - size does not matter.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 01:26 PM

*#1Peasant*: "Or you can just sit in your small room lock the door keep out the riff raff and watch the folk world contract even more.
here we search for solutions not simply proclaim the impossibility of finding them. "

..OR get off your ass and come up with something that knocks people's socks off!...and quit waiting for someone to do it for you!!!
"IF YOU BUILD IT, THEY WILL COME!"..remember that??

Problem is, that 'folkies' stated identifying themselves with the 'under trodden', then became them...and cloned onto the liberal left, which is nothing more than, self induced helplessness!

Got news for ya'...If you see yourselves as a child of God, then you ain't a 'victim'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,AndyC
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 08:55 AM

I think the specific problem with the BBC in the uk is that it dsoesn't have a box to tick for english traditional music. Radios Scotland, Wales and Ulster would be expected to cover their particular national traditional / working class cultures (Radio Scotland runs five hours of Scots-based music every Saturday night - country dance, piping and folk) but none of the stations in england have the same obligations. In fact the BBC seem to think that the only requirements in england are to cover the more middle class culture of classical and jazz on Radio 3.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 11:07 PM

Ron you are on record on not being worried that the folk world is small and limited.

You are opposed- just admit it. You want a small clique rather than a world of folk music thats what you said sorry..

get with it the folk music expands quicker than it is doing or we drop the ball and we all loose the legacy

and yes there are more stations but internet stations are not major stations and their number is meaningless unless we take over the major national and commericial media. this can happen once you take your head outta your ass.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: frogprince
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 11:25 PM

Conrad,no one has ever said anything on this forum which could be interpreted as wanting to limit folk music to an elite clique, or any other small group, except by twisting their words to fit the notions that you're locked into.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 01:38 AM

Amazing Conrad. I have no idea where you are or what you listen to. I have a radio programme and it has been going just over three years. When will it be judged to have failed?

I think of the time when I started in folk music. It was in the 60's and there were a lot of protest songs. I was at a demo last night. It has a song written specially for it!

There has been a massive expansion of young musicians in the past ten years, many with outstanding skills.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 04:27 AM

Interesting discussion. In my experience I have to support Ron. Folk music on the radio is a solid presence.

Working from home I can access more folk music programmes than I can possibly find time to listen to in any one week. They all have different styles of presentation, presenter and music. They have all introduced me to new artists, reminded me of old favourites and enhanced by CD collection. Go surf and be amazed!

Best wishes,

Peter


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,AndyC
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 07:12 AM

Maybe someone should start a thread to list out all of the worthwhile folk and related shows and stations on the radio or the internet. The best one on the radio in england is about to disappear but I'm sure there are others that people will enjoy and which would benefit from support.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 08:03 AM

Could it be that when the BBC do folk on TV or radio it's always very trad English and given a very old fashioned treatment. For instand the very recent prog on BBC4 with The Unthanks, Bellowhead etc. Not criticising the music it was very good on the whole. But the look and the set were a mix of medieval, Victorian and at times a 'Good Old Days' presentation! In recent year young people have been coming back to Folk music (we've had a 12yr old, 9 yr old and a 14yr old at our club this past year) but it's totally un reflected in the media. Add to that BBC radio presenters of folk tend to be 'old' folkis themselves and very trad English. There is a whole lot more to folk music nowadays but we need to move into the 21st century, sadly the BBC still hasn't come out of the 19h!


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 08:11 AM

They don't "fail", they end. So does everything else. Every human life ends at some point. Every plant ends. Every season ends. Every form of government ends. It's not failure, it's just the end of that particular phenomenon, that's all.

The main reason you see folk music radio programs ending lately is this: a dwindling demographic to support those programs, and less money to be made in that field, as compared to other styles of more commercial music that are presently being pushed by the mass media and the major marketers. That's normal. It has happened the same way with horsedrawn carriages and flintlock rifles, for example....but...you can still find some horsedrawn carriages and flintlock rifles if you go to the right places, and you will probably always be able to find some folk music too.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Granthampie
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 08:56 AM

Folk music in the UK is still experiencing a huge revival and its not the people who listen to folk who are out of touch... its the BBC.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Bernard
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 11:58 AM

As I've already mentioned, AliO and I used to broadcast 'Sounds of Folk' on BBC GMR (now Radio Manchester)... the Beeb axed 'specialist music' programmes in general, not just folk (as in the case of FolkWaves), so we simply moved our programme to another station (Oldham Community Radio), retained our audience and have gone from strength to strength. In four weeks time we will reach programme 200!

We've had guests as varied as 4Square and Trio Threlfall, and interviewed such 'big names' as Cara Dillion, Lau, Mabon, Ralph McTell and Peggy Seeger both on the telephone and on location at venues.

A few years ago we interviewed Alan Bell on BBC GMR, and in the New Year he's coming to Oldham Community Radio for a chat.

We try to embrace as wide a spectrum of 'folk' as we can - for example, last night (Monday 20th Dec 2010) we played an up-tempo version of God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen played by a Steel Band from Barbados, St. Agnes Fountain's version of 'Have yourself a Merry Little Christmas' and Isambarde with 'Miner's Lifeguard' (shame they're disbanding...).

It's fact that 'folk' is a minority audience, and shoving your opinions down unreceptive throats is hardly the way to win fans. I believe that the wide range of folk radio (off-air and web-based) currently available not only caters well for addicts, but is bringing in new blood, too.

So let's not jump up and down and fight amongst ourselves... we should be celebrating the wide diversity of what is available and supporting it!


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 12:51 PM

"You are opposed- just admit it. You want a small clique rather than a world of folk music thats what you said sorry"

That is an outright lie. I said nothing of the kind. I disagree completely with your premise, and you choose to put words in my mouth. Shame on you. You are once again twisting facts to support your theory, which has very little validity.

Size does not matter. Folk collectors have gathered gems from "small cliques" in the rural areas of Appalachia, fishing villages in New Engand, etc.   Large audiences continue to gather annually for festivals across the nation. There is a 24 hour, 7 days a week folk channel on satellite radio. There is a 24 hour, 7 days a week folk channel on the internet. There are HUNDREDS


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 03:05 PM

IMHO, folk music is a matter of context. It has to be presented in a format that requires some homework about songs, writers, performers and not just a pastiche or as Stephen Sondheim calls it, a "Piss-stash".

There is a connection between the traditional culture-based music that is archived and the vibrant creativity of the singer/songwriter/political activist. The problem, as Ron has suggested is the carving of folk music into little pieces rather than viewing the whole revival interest in its history and development. It's a big tree with many branches. The singer/songwriter or activist political songwriter owes the Almanac Singers, the Weavers,and Pete Seeger who in turn owe the countless field recordings and examples of traditional American and other country's heritage. Each tributary feeds from the main river.

In fact, it's positively Darwinian.

A show that really educates and advances information about the music is mostly likely to reach people and have staying power. If it entertains with content, it will last.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 07:24 PM

While political music is a part of the tree excessive activism or narrow rather than inclusive activism alienates those opposed who dont feel that their personal views would find expression in the music as performed. The more the spectrum of political music the more inclusive and the more will feel it comfortable to attend.

No one lifestyle or world view or set of politics should be seen to dominate. Go out and present as much as possible the music of all points of view on an issue. Not just your preference over and over at the expense of all others.

Yes Ron the folk community needs to be big. If you dont think it has to be big then you are in favor of small. Your words : "Size does not matter" it does matter.

And as far as programming goes I dont think there is anything wrong with the grand internet programs now available but I am concerned with mainstream media. National channels. We need to have a community that is sufficiently large and meaningful to keep these going.

And you dont do that by remaining small or infact by fragmenting the attention of the community which now has to keep track of all the internet broadcasting which is not well known and may take listeners away from mainstream programming which will impact surveys which will impact decisions to add or remove programming.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 08:57 PM

You are mistaken Conrad. It has nothing to do with size. You need to go back and look up what constitutes "folk". Your folk community and the folk community that the rest of us belong to appear to be two different worlds.

If you want to study pop culture, then you would feel at home with size.

I'm not sure why you are going off on a tangent about politics. It seems like this whole discussion was nothing more than a ploy to further some agenda you are working on.

Folk radio is alive and well. Folk music is alive and well. No need to worry, just need to observe and participate.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 09:08 PM

"If you dont think it has to be big then you are in favor of small. "

That is akin to me asking you when you stopped beating your wife.

It does not have to be one or the other. It is what it is.

If you really read my posts, you would understand that I have ALWAYS been promoting folk music and I hope more people discover it, but you cannot force any movement upon the masses without their involvement or interest.   People discover what they like. If you force any artform down people's throats, you end up with the commercial mess we had during the folk revival.   The best will survive and be noticed, as is happening today. We celebrate the diversity of folk music and all the inroads it has made in contemporary pop culture. 50 or 60 years ago, you would not have seen guitars and banjos as prevelant in mainstream culture as you do now. Embrace folk music for all the joy it holds, but don't try to market it like a package of potato chips.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 09:15 PM

"it is what it is"

No- to optimize preservation of the legacy, to keep people learning to play we can not trust it to be what it wants. We have to examine it and find ways to make it grow and prosper. I would suggest that if programs are canceled it is too small- doesnt have the necessary political power

you dont force music on anyone

you configure things more efficiently so that you attract the greatest number. Right now the folk world has narrow views that lock out many and in some instances other accessibility issues can be easily corrected.

No its not ok to be whatever. You have to do what leads to an expansion on many fronts.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 10:03 PM

Sorry Conrad, but you are not understanding what "folk world" really is. You are not "examining" but rather trying to "enforce" your own views.   Folk music is an examination of a culture, not a manipulation such as your suggesting.   A culture does not have a "narrow" view - it has a view, whether you agree with it or not.

A radio show being cancelled is not a barometer of the growth and prosperity that folk music has to offer. What you are describing is a radio show with a specific audience - large or small - and there are many different styles of radio programs and audience to serve. There are programs dedicated to Irish music, Reggae music, big band music, Latin jazz, polka, Hispanic music, rhythm and blues, country, bluegrass, classical and dozens of other styles and offerings.   Right or wrong, a station owner is allowed to make decisions on what they program - that is their right as the holder of the license.

I would certainly hope that the music prospers, and I see more than enough signs that show it is healthy.   Time changes, technology changes.   At the height of the folk revival, there were only a handful of radio stations playing this music with regularity. The music became commercially succesful in spite of radio neglect.   Fast forward to today, there are hundreds of folk-based radio shows, a 24 hour satellite channel, and many more outlets. People enjoy the music. While it may not rival a hip hop audience, it is doing very well and thriving - whether you choose to believe it or not.

You need to expand your own horizons. Old models no longer work. The music is thriving and there are many of us working hard to keep it alive for the future.   Do not insult our intelligence by trying to create a false reality.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 02:16 PM

From: *#1 PEASANT*: "Ron you are on record on not being worried that the folk world is small and limited."

..and then there was some squabble, over that....OK..but then music, and culture's taste changes...maybe there is a 'type' of folk music out there, and because it doesn't fit into your particular definition, of traditional 'folk music', that it has altered your perception of what folk music really is, and the origins of where and why it sprang up..... Maybe it is still springing up..maybe in a form that you might readily or normally discard.

Is 'folk music' only happening with acoustic instruments, within a certain 'style'..or is it the spirit that created that music, at those particular times, with those instruments??..and limited only to that time??..and the best we can do, is maybe just re-create it??

I think not.

However, that being said, I sure LOVE a group of acoustic players just kickin' ass!...just don't be afraid of playing with power or(powerfully)!

Oh, and by the way, for all you 'politically correct' protest song 'affectationatos', of protest folk songs, and that vein, Name ONE folk/protest song, that had any impact, even on your life, THAT AT THE TIME THAT IT CAME OUT, was 'politically correct'??????

Hmmmm..interesting...and now those same 'affectationatos' have become numb, AND numb everyone around them, or, tries to numb everyone around them, into the same stupor that those same songs were protesting against!

Or did we admire works from Dylan, Cohen, Ochs, McGuire, Prine, Seeger, Guthrie, Lennon, Rose, Zappa, and others...BECAUSE they came from 'outside the box'?
....and what are you going to promote??..being more 'politically correctly' numb????..and spout the same shit that they're are already getting...that is killing their spirits???!!?...and brought us to HERE?
Maybe lifting UP the human spirit, would accomplish MORE than instructing them what to do, how to think, and what new 'policy' to embrace to their/your bosom!
You might even strike a 'resonate node' in their minds and hearts, that THEIR whole concept of the world, is what is getting obsolete, and maybe room can be made to accommodate those whose engines are run on and by love. Not as 'regulated' to do, but rather that which foments up from our beings....
...and right now, the spirit in the heart of this country, and the world, is what needs to be nurtured a little....you think???

With all this talent on this forum, and the witnessing, first hand, of what is screwing up the rest of society, you have a thread, "Why do folk music radio programs fail?"..and think there isn't a need, and a market????...or does 'Tom Dooley' not understood fully because nobody bent the string a certain way, that you just figured out???

Love to exchange positive feedback...jeez, I'm pointin' the way....also love to get a great female vocalist....

Most Sincerely,
Guest from Sanity


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 02:33 PM

Hello, Ron O. You are wasting your time tryin` to talk sense with Conrad. He`s Mudcat`s leading troll. May as well pee into the wind.

Bruce M


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Bruce from Bathurst
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 03:08 AM

I've found this thread slightly disturbing. Not that I'm paranoid, but I've presented a folk music radio program since 1976 and now I'm starting to get worried.

In Australia, the vast majority of folk programs come from stations in the community broadcasting sector. Most of our community stations have a shoestring budget and they survive thanks to the dedication or downright obsession of volunteers. That might be the same deal where you live and it might not.

Plenty of folk music, and other, programs have disappeared from the airwaves because management committees "identify an alternative developing demographic", or some such blah, and there are presenters who jump before they're pushed, either to the 12-2am slot or out the door completely. Someone might have thought those programs failed but I wouldn't be so harsh.

Our station's 'footprint' covers about 100,000 people across the region but we can't afford to conduct full blown listener surveys so usually our presenters don't know whether anyone's tuned in unless the phone rings. That uncertainty becomes too frustrating for some presenters and they leave. Has their program failed? Not in my book.

Sure, it's always good to get those phone calls and to have those conversations in the street about a great track from last week's program (it's a small town!), but I won't judge success or failure in that way. In my case, I just enjoy having two hours each week to share the music without feeling guilty about not mowing the grass or clearing leaves out of the gutters.

A good way for you to help a program survive is (a) listen to it and (b) find a way to give comments - preferably constructive - to the presenter and/or the station. Tell them you're listening and want to keep listening. It won't help after the program has been replaced by 'Hits of the '70s' so get in now if you have something to say.

As a presenter, I know it's healthy to review my own program and to get feedback. For about two years I used to include one designated 'Bad Taste' track on each program until too many people said they couldn't understand why I thought such nice songs were in bad taste. OK - that might have been a failed idea. (You'll have to trust me. Some were really bad.)

Little Hawk probably got it right by observing that folk programs don't fail - they end. Eventually I could decide to spend more time with the family, or stop driving through ice to the radio station in winter, or move away, or use the time to start on the mountain of unread books sitting next to the CD collection, or I might just get bored with the whole thing. Whatever the reason, I hope I won't think my program failed. All things must pass.

I'm usually a lurker, but this thread pressed buttons.

Bruce


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Harry from Edinburgh
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 05:59 AM

folk music takes slightly more attention span than current hip musics
=
hardly anyone new listens to it
=
those that do would rather argue about what type is the folkiest
+
argue about which nail is exactly going to close the coffin for good
+
slag off anyone who is making a living from folk music
=
even less people want to listen to or be part of that
=
the scene remains supported by the sheer goodwill of a few dedicated people. Comparisons are made to an old man on a life support machine, alive, just, but in no way fit or healthy.
=
the folk music radio programs fail
=
the end


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 08:05 AM

I quite agree Grantham pie
I attended a conference in Sept funded by the EFSDS and the facts do prove that the interest in Folk music has had it's fastest growth period yet over the last few years, as has the interest from younger people increased too. So for sure the demand is there. The failure is the BBC'S for not moving with the times and being obsessed with big names and recording 'stars' Come on BBC get out to the real folk clubs where real FOLK is


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 08:39 AM

Just my two cents worth:

First, the term "folk music" is dated and attracts people of a certain generation... I'd change the term to "alt acoustic"... Sounds more contemporary... Just MO, of course...

Second, way too much "formula" music that has been done over and over and over and most folks, ahhhhh, musicians could play it if they had died the week before... Just MO, of course...

Third, not enough balls in it... Most lack "hooks" because song writers aren't doin' enough experimenting... There are exceptions but they somehow get lost because they allow themselves to be pigeon holed as folk musicians...

Forth, not enough crossover... I mean, people like Buddy Miller, Steve Earle, Ben Prestage, Richard Johnston, Ray Wylie Hubbard, etc... I'n not saying that all programs don't include some of these people but I'd dare say not enough...

Fifth, too many banjos... Awww, just funnin'... Just wanted to see if anyone was actually reading this???

Sixth, folk musicians tend to be snobby... I mean, I like a good head banger band, too... But those bands are considered "commoner" music by lots of people into folk... I mean, there's are some really fine songs out there by "commoners"... With real hooks and real balls, to boot...

Seventh, recording companies ain't what they used to be


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 09:08 AM

...ahhhhhhh, sorry about that... My keyboard decided to quit on me...

I was talkin' about recording companies... Well, they not only used to record folkies but would give them cash advances... Imagine that?!?!?...
I mean, take a group like the Pozo Seco Singers... You think they would get a cash advance from any recording company today??? Haha...

Okay, my keyboard is fixed... I've ranted enough and provided all kinds of opportunities for people to tell me I'm full of bull plus I gotta drive Miss P-Vine to Charlottesville for a doctor's appointment... So ya'll have it...

B~


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 09:10 AM

Okay, I should say that GUEST999, i.e. Brucie, is what folk music should be... His stuff is interesting, has hooks, extremely well done etc...

B~


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 10:12 AM

Well - when my programme fails I will report back.

Seriously folks - my prog goes out on a Community Station and I think it would fail if I started loosing interest and hence quality, failed to turn up occasionally, or a change of management with a lack of taste.

Tick one of the above

but not yet.


Cresby's Cajun Capers (scripts & playlist)
streamed live Stroud FM
alt Mondays 9pm GMT (eg Jan 2) repeated alt Sundays 12 mid-day 13 days later (eg Jan 1 datum).
repeated every Wed @ 3am GMT

Enjoy - hopefully.

the hilarity of jokes can go up as well as down!


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Dave Eyre
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 01:38 PM

One thing I do is to leave a Facebook page open - this allows me to interact with listeners. Sometimes it works sometimes - not.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 10:46 PM

Bobert, and Bruce from Bathurst, Mr Red,..and any struggling folk radio people, I have to say....and hold on to your chair....(Bobert),I agree with most your post...'alternative acoustic' is a good idea. That works, of course, if EITHER the folk artist stretches a little, and goes 'outside', OR other artist come in, who are playing in the same vein, but not exactly 'pure folk'..much the same as 'folk-rock' was to folk.

I think, that once an audience has been established, introducing new things into the airplay, IN THE SAME SPIRIT, probably won't offend them, as long as it is 'tasty'!

A lot of 'purists' got pissed off at Dylan, when suddenly he did some pieces, in which he went electric...so what??...they either come around, or stay stuck where they are.(Sorta like 'libs')--had to throw that in)....but if you expand your musical base, and still include the basic format, I believe you will expand your listening base, as well.

And then there is playing 'folk' music that is folk music, other than exclusively Celtic based folk music.
That being said, a friend of mine was with
This group but before she left, she wrote this piece for them, and performed it on this video. It is a 'fusion' between Afro beats and Celtic licks. (By the way, she is the violinist/fiddler on this video...some of you may recognize her).....none the less, is certainly SHOULD fit onto any 'folk based' format...as many others I have. Besides, its so damn likable, I don't think anyone with turn off the radio, should it come on!..Matter of fact, they might call into the station and ask, "WHO WAS THAT??!!" ....and it is all acoustic, except for the bass player.

Anyway, there is music out there that definitely would appeal to 'folkies', that may not be pure 'folk'..but is in the same 'ear'.

Get back to me, about this, if you want....and here's another....

Here's another....listen in!!!!

Anything I can do to help,
GfS


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Dec 10 - 08:36 AM

Yeah, I like both them clips... The first one reminds me of an alt rock band from the Pittsburg area that recorded as "Rusted Root"... Nice mix of African drumming and Celtic... The second clip alot like "Enya"... I can take a little of that New Agey stuff but if it came on the radio I certainly wouldn't change the channel... But it's all what I would call "alt acoustic"... Even if it isn't strictly acoustic... I mean, little is strictly acoustic anymore... Everyone talks about this or that being "unplugged" but it ain't really "unplugged"... It's just an acou8stic instrument "plugged"...

Or like Dylan, a not so "acoustic" instrument...

Technically, my "Lowebow" is an acoustic instrument but when I play it thru my Fender tube amp it becomes a seriously rock-ified instrument...

No matter, room for all these sounds under the folk tent... Or, at least, there should be...

B~


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Fidjit
Date: 24 Dec 10 - 08:49 AM

I did some radio programs in Norway in the seventies. I don't think they failed. Just ran their course until another one took over.

Hey 100
Chas


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: bruceCMR
Date: 24 Dec 10 - 09:37 AM

I am one of the directors of Celtic Music Radio, a licensed community radio station and charity based in Glasgow. We broadcast 24x7 on 1530kHz to the west of Scotland, and stream on http://www.celticmusicradio.net/

Celtic Music Radio has a mission to be a strong cultural voice for contemporary and traditional music, arts and culture.We play a broad range of traditional and contemporary roots and folk music - 'connecting singers and songwriters around Glasgow and around the world'.

During January, we will be broadcasting 10 hours live every day from Celtic Connections - and we're optimistic that this will be relayed on a number of other stations throughout the UK.

Anyway - enough of the advert!

We've been "on-air" full-time for 3 years, and listener numbers are generally increasing. The biggest asset we have is that our presenters are all enthusiasts - all volunteers, drawn from the local folk community. Some performers, some listeners! We work very closely with the local folk community - every week we will have some local musicians in for a live set, or maybe just a chat, and we try to record and broadcast as many local music events as we can. It's all about being part of a community, broadcasting with it, rather than to it.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Dec 10 - 09:56 AM

-Not only are folk programs failing but judging from reports on bbc folk programs that remain folk clubs too are closing down.
-yes interaction via facebook with listeners is a very very good strategy it puts viewers live in the studio
it is well worth the effort to keep the facebook page open and give it a comment or two when recordings are playing.

The important thing about facebook page is not the number of likes or friends but the number you get to comment on a regular basis. A few ways to encourage more to contribute would be a facebook quiz during the show, maybe information there that is not found elsewhere on radio web pages and play lists. Asking facebook friends to post their requests is also good.

Another strategy is to get a friend from the facebook page to take a role in posting information during the program on guests or tracks played. They could be ready with it and send it in for the presenter.
Often one has to wait for the play list for the web pages of those who perform on the show live. Spreading the work this way would allow the presenter to make the facebook page quite lively.

it is also important that people listening have many reasons for doing so. A program running along without variety in a few directions will not be so popular.

it is important to moderate the dimensions as well. One folk presenter in the DC area goes on and on and on with calendar items so much so that you can hardly find the music. while i think some event listing is important this is better accomplished on a web page or play list or facebook.

I also find that some presenters drone on with interviews taking up entire shows. these are best broken into short sound bites and broadcast over several programmes.

I do like background information on the songs but not too long after the song has been played. when a number of songs are played in a row one can not relate the background to the song.

again background information on facebook would keep the facebook experience lively.

Another problem is actually playing requests. One should not have to wait forever and a day to have the request played. yes does often take a while to track down recordings.

another important thing is to make sure that local grass roots talent is featured not just the big star who is promoting a concert tour or recording.

Festival season is also messy with this sort of promotion. i find that the summer programs are dominated by festival line ups and promoters. the same people on several programs. overkill. then you find that the tickets are sold out anyway.....so perhaps some of the big festivals dont need all that much coveraage all the time.

Is the recording on i tunes- I use i tunes a lot so it is helpful to know that a song is there.....one could go on and on it seems i have.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Dec 10 - 10:49 AM

"Not only are folk programs failing but judging from reports on bbc folk programs that remain folk clubs too are closing down."

That is sort of like saying transportation is failing because fewer people are using horse and cart these days.

I cannot speak for the UK, but since this thread was started by a person living in the U.S., I can only relate to what is happening over here.   It is true that a popular BBC show was cancelled, and the traditional folk clubs may or may not be in danger in the UK, but there is alwasys something new on the horizon. Sometimes you just need to take off blinders and you will see clearly.

Over the years, there have been radio shows that were cancelled in the U.S., but there are still hundreds available and many of the hosts that were cancelled found new gigs elsewhere.    This is not very different from any other style of specialty program. There is greater access to a wider variety of music than ever before. If you cannot find folk music on the radio or the internet, you are either living under a rock or not trying very hard.

Venues are always struggling, but alternatives have been found. The house concert series has become very popular here in the states - although it is a concept that has not caught on overseas. I understand that what passes for homes and apartments in the UK is much smaller than here in the US, so it may be difficult to draw 30 to 5o people together in a private residence, but you need to be creative.   Here in the U.S., churches and community centers became the venues of choice once the coffehouse scene died out. Build it, and they will come. While pubs might not wish to present this style of music, you can find another place if you are creative.

Festivals are also holding their own. They might not be money making operations due to rising costs, but there is a wide circuit of events across our nation that supports our community.

Don't kid yourself - folk music IS growing, as long as we do not wring our hands and say the sky is falling, we can continue to create positive messages and make the music attract. It will speak for itself, it always has. Young people are doing some amazing things, and I am confident that our future is safe.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Dec 10 - 11:37 AM

As listmeister for cresby.com I can tell you that Folk Clubs are disappearing at approximately the same rate that new ones are springing up.

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Dec 10 - 12:12 PM

That is good news Mr. Red!


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: josepp
Date: 24 Dec 10 - 12:33 PM

The fault lies with the listeners. There too few and those few think as long as they keep listening everything will be okay. They are wholly ignorant of what is going on around them and attempts to raise their consciousness a few degrees concerning the issue is hopeless and met with pointless resistance.

If you say, "Well, Christ, look at this crap that's being peddled around today as music--what are we going to do about that??"

You get: "You're just giving it more publicity by talking about it!" as though this is some brilliant response. It is really the same as: "Let me bury my head in the sand and stop bugging me about it. People like you are the problem--always stirring up a fuss about nothing!!"

Then they come to places like Mudcat and start whining that great folk music programs that have been on the air for ages are getting tossed out the door. Or they say that because the one dinky program they like has somehow managed to hang on simply because it has little in the way of competition, that means everything is okay. And they can delude themselves this way because--as pointed out---they are wholly ignorant of what is going on around them and believe that ignoring it makes it go away. No, sooner or later, it will make them go away. And I almost welcome it if there was anything worth listening to that could replace it.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Dec 10 - 02:50 PM

josepp: "If you say, "Well, Christ, look at this crap that's being peddled around today as music--what are we going to do about that??"

Absolutely correct!....The answer lies in your minds, hearts, and instrument cases!!!!!!

When asked, "Where did you come up with that?"..after someone heard on of my pieces, I simply reply, "I couldn't hear anything but crap on the radio, so I'll write it myself!"

GfS


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Dec 10 - 03:09 PM

I was interviewing Eric Andersen and we were talking about the emergence of singer-songwriters during the folk revival (although they were not called singer-songwriters at the time.)   Eric's response was that they needed to write new songs that spoke to the issues and emotions that they were facing - the same reasons that spawned what would become "traditional" music in the first place.

For all the hardcore "traddies" out there, you can probably trace the first sparks for you love of trad back to a time in your youth when you discovered something in the music that touched you.   You cannot expect subsequent generations to have the same reasons as you did - nor can you expect the same modes of transmission.


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Dec 10 - 04:30 AM

Atta Baby, Ron!!
It's true...and that being said, you CAN remember the reason it hit you, the way it did....and you can't get it again, by just repeating different versions of the same song..or stay exclusively in the same genre...but YOU CAN, grab stuff from one genre and incorporate something that caught your ear, from something entirely different, and combine it with you already got..and make it work!
AND in that case, I point your attention to SOUND..and PRECISION!
After Barry McGuire did 'Eve of Destruction' out of nowhere, that, by the way, was MASSIVELY politically and socially INCORRECT..so much so, that you nearly had to 'duck' to admit there was SOMETHING about that song, you just sorta liked...IT was all alone, in every thing....THEN, came this beauty, with a compassion, clarity, and CARE, for your fellow human.....in a time when people sang about cars, surf, proms, doo-wop, and generally shallow stuff...while the early 'Beatles' were narrating their/our journey through puberty..and of course, we ALL perked up our ears..then came THIS song, out of NOWHERE sung by someone nobody ever heard of, ....and you couldn't hear it played enough....:

Remember the clarity, precision and spirit of compassion?????

It virtually switched the train tracks, in our ears!

"What was she saying?" "What was that lyric?"..."Wow, what a clear voice!".."Have you heard this song?..what was her name?", God! She's my favorite singer!".........ALL COMMENTS WE ALL heard....and it put her on the map!..So much, even Dylan went for it...and along with the masterful lyrics of Phil Ochs, Who really had a lot to say, in a LOT of his stuff, it became one of the building blocks of a style, or form of music, that we've played for years after!!..though it has evolved, and sometimes not for the better!

I have a hope, and an optimism, that someone out there 'gets' what I'm talking about, and starts thinking, and disciplining, and innovating something so damn likable, with something REAL to say, that there is NO holding it back!! WE can, and could be, and should be hip to that, and pull it off!

A lot of the 'folk' market is nostalgia based....somebody fresh, will blow the lid off it...and it might not be folk!..but it can be..and probably SHOULD be..though not so much 'traditional' but may have traditional roots.

Its open game.
I'd love to share what's been going on here, with it, and how it came to be...and has roots in guitar..but it's on keyboard.
So, in closing, take it seriously on a new level. Harness creating. Get outside your 'finger tendencies' and figure out new stuff. Remember precision!!!...and say something DIALED IN to more than extending a 'political overtone'.

Humanity, is in huge demand of understanding, nurturing, and having their hearts touch with compassion..without an ideology attached to it!! IT WILL GET AIRPLAY, if the demand dictates it. Hell, if the stuff is hot enough, maybe it could change what the radio stations play!!!!

Make sense???

GfS


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Dec 10 - 01:33 AM

Hello??

Gfs


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Dec 10 - 03:16 PM

I couldn't find this thread yesterday, so I'm reposting and editing what I wrote to the Radio Success thread yesterday:

"On my desk have I a 6+ page list of US and Canadian stations which play(ed) Folk music by day and time, The list is dated FEB. 22, 2006.

I just checked six stations that broadcast folk programs on Sunday morning, then; five still do: KLCC, WOUB, WUWF, WORT, & KRFC. About 10 min. ago KFRC back-announced a tune by Seamus Kennedy (our own compatriot?).

Based on this small sampling, I'm supposing that folk music is alive and picking (with apologies to MKAlden) on the radio."

Note: since yesterday I found three or four more programs still kicking around all these years. FAIl? Many do not!


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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 05:07 AM

John, Nice post! To all other 'compatriots' John just posted a list of stations, that you might have a shot at being heard....make it a good one, should you have the opportunity.
Just hope that whatever is sent in, is a great one....one that might cause people to listen to 'folk music' again!

GfS


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