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Why do folk music radio programs fail?
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Subject: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 15 Dec 10 - 05:46 PM Ok I hope this is general enough: Add in your suggestion and we will see what we all get! 1. Blending of too much singer songwriter and off topic music with older trad under a program categorized as " folk " or "traditional" too muc "folk Like" ok I will wait and see... Conrad
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: GUEST,999 Date: 15 Dec 10 - 05:48 PM Nice try. Take yer meds. |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: GUEST,aeola Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:02 PM don't know but I hear Folkwaves on East Midlands BBC radio is being axed! |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: GUEST,999 Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:07 PM Can I buy a vowel . . . . |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: Herga Kitty Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:10 PM Define fail..... (then have a think about defining "folk music radio program") |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:24 PM There was a long-running folk radio program in Detroit - Matt Watroba's Folk Like Us. It was one of those legendary programs, but yet it died. I think there just weren't enough people listening, despite the fact that it was a terrific program. Utah Phillips had the Loafer's Glory program. It was terrific, but I think that eventually he just ran out of material. Luckily, it's being made available at http://www.thelongmemory.com/ - 28 of the 99 programs are now available for download. Oscar Brand's Folksong Festival has been on the air since December, 1945, and is broadcast every Saturday, 10pm-11pm (Eastern Time), on WNYC-AM 820 in New York City and can be heard live worldwide in streaming audio: http://www.wnyc.org/stream/am.asx. Now, if we could download every one of Oscar's programs that has been broadcast since 1945, would we need anything more? -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:27 PM Ask Mary Cliff on WAMU, Conrad. She's been on the air for 30-odd years with her Traditions show.first on WETA and then on WAMU. Then ask Gene Shay at WXPN in Philadelphia. Same thing. |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: johnadams Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:31 PM Joe, many thanks for that link to Utah Phillips. He's one of my all time heroes. What a treasury! |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 15 Dec 10 - 07:19 PM I know mary-is she still on ordinary radio |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 15 Dec 10 - 07:20 PM Ok let me clarify-why do progeria fail-not which shows are on the air |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 15 Dec 10 - 07:24 PM Ok fail:when a program calling itself "folk"or "traditional"is axes even though most folkie listeners approve of it |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: kendall Date: 15 Dec 10 - 07:39 PM WERU in Blue Hill Maine. Their signal must reach at least 100 people. |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: dwditty Date: 15 Dec 10 - 07:51 PM I am not sure, but it just might be about the $$. How un-folk- like. |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: Crowhugger Date: 15 Dec 10 - 08:19 PM Conrad, I gather you're talking about shows that program mainly or exclusively UK-born traditional music and its colonial descendants, is that right? In the Toronto area, so-called "roots" shows seemed to fare better than some niche programming. These programmed mostly non-UK, non-European folk, both traditional and fusions that varied according to the musical ancestry & tastes of the musician and their collaborators. I loved these shows because of the mix of past and present. I'd never have the feeling of enjoying a museum piece, or that I was hearing tradition being mangled, rather it was consistently alive, growing, beautiful, and current. (Dare I add: There was no angst about whether the music was or wasn't suitably pure.) I'd love to name the shows whose music left this favourable impression on me but I haven't tuned in or thought about them for long enough that I've forgotten. Almost certainly they were on CBC or the university stations, or maybe PBS from south of the border. Over the last 5-10 years, live music-making has replaced most radio and a lot of other recorded music in my life. Back when I was listening to more radio, it seemed to be an era of proliferating roots shows, which causes me to wonder: Are demographics a possible reason for "folk" shows dying? In the large urban centres of Canada, the percentage of population that hails from UK is shrinking steadily, so I wouldn't expect a show based on such content to flourish. I would expect its largest and most loyal audience to be those with an historical and sentimental attachment to the music. Though come to think of it, I don't know if the so-called roots shows have had trouble surviving or not. Maybe someone else knows if the failing Conrad talks about is a problem faced by all small-niche programming these days. That info could shed some light on his question. |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: Joe_F Date: 15 Dec 10 - 08:40 PM Perhaps because there is no point to broadcasting at all, now that people can order up what they want when they want it, and get together with other people to exercise their vocal cords with? I don't belong here, I know. |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 15 Dec 10 - 09:16 PM I've hosted a show for 30 years BECAUSE I blend singer-songwriter and off topic stuff with older trad on a program that is catagorized as folk. Folk music is a living tradition and the threads with the contemporary folk community are evident for those willing to understand what "FOLK" music really means. |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: Don Firth Date: 15 Dec 10 - 09:34 PM KBCS-FM, Bellevue, Washington (across Lake Washington from Seattle), plays a lot of folk music, especially on weekends. Local DJs. Wide variety of stuff. If what you're hearing at any given time isn't to your taste, just hang in. It'll probably be along pretty soon. Don Firth P. s. "Rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated." --Folk Music |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 15 Dec 10 - 10:22 PM Oops - sorry Ron! Didn't mean to omit your good self. Yes, Conrad, Mary is still on ordinary radio, WAMU 88.5 FM out of D.C. on Saturday night. |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: mousethief Date: 15 Dec 10 - 11:09 PM I'd say if a radio show fails it's because too few people listen to it. Just off the top of my head. |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: MGM·Lion Date: 16 Dec 10 - 02:17 AM The tale is told of one of the great financiers [Rockefeller? Frick? ~ no matter: whoever] asked by a young man how to succeed. "I can't tell you that, young man", he is said to have replied; "but I will tell you how NOT to succeed. "Try to please everyone." ~Michael~ |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Dec 10 - 02:32 AM Because a lot of folk music, (along with others) have lost their edge!.. and don't say much, anymore...so the folk artists just 're-package' the older styles, and topics, in which some just don't apply, like they did...but there's a lot of people regurgitating the past. It doesn't have to be that way...I'd say, when you're writing...use the wisdom gained through the years, coupled with the exploratory nature of youth...and you might come up with something 'hot'. Speak to the common denominator of human emotions, but don't write lyrics that contain the word 'You' when addressing the listener. Nobody wants to be spoken 'down' to, as if you're turning them onto something 'new'....but if you say something that hits the 'common denominator', as per aforementioned, people's ears tend to perk up! Oh, and unlike politics, don't address the LOWEST common denominator, of intelligence, but rather the most inside.....preferably the 'inside' (common denominator) that never gets spoken to!!!! The Best To You, GfS |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: mikesamwild Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:19 AM Mainstream radio seems to be driven by commercial or economic rules. It is quite common for networking of a service from a central spot which is often a kiss of death to localism. Unfortunately a local programme , which is great for up to date news of events and tasters has to pay its way. In a time of financial cuts community radio which is subsidised is under threat. Maybe we will come down to internet programmes put on by enthusiasts at their own expense. I can envisage a streamed interactive programme that would do what we do on these social networks. that could be quite inclusive, they could be streamed or downloaded later and cross time boundaries. I'm sure we'll hear from people doing just that. I'd like to know how many 'listeners' such programmes get nobody wants to be like the last of the great whales beaming it out to a diminishing population. |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: GUEST,LDT Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:59 AM Maybe to put a more positive spin on it why not ask what people would like in a folk music radio program? For me the ideal radio 'folk' show would be nice to have a young presenter (who's enthusiastic about the genre) and a nice mix of tunes and songs both archive (so its not all 'this is my new album I'm promoting' stuff) and new, with interviews with the artists. And I do like weekly/daily/monthly a theme. ;) And actually rather than a 'localized' program have something more national/global in taste. 24/F/UK |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: GUEST,LDT Date: 16 Dec 10 - 05:01 AM I have found some of these elements in different programs but never all of them in one. |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: GUEST,LDT Date: 16 Dec 10 - 05:14 AM oh, and for anyone who didn't know I'm not swearing 24/F/UK Means: 24 female UK |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: GUEST,Alan Whittle Date: 16 Dec 10 - 05:40 AM Folk music isn't a homogenous sort of thing. Its unusual to find someone who can listen to all sorts of folk music. Usually within an hour the DJ will play something that irritates you beyond measure. Also in England, rather than proper DJs - skilled at putting together a varied and listenable show. The show tends to fall into the hands of some performer or other. So they play rubbish by someone or other they think will help them in their career - the dire residents at some club they think they might get a gig. Or the organisers of festivals. I dunno what the answer is. It must be a difficult job. Everybody seems to put out cds these days. When it was just club pros doing recordings - nearly every track had worked for a place in an act, and it 'worked' with an audience. Nowadays there aren't really enough clubs for acts to assess how good a song is. Still you have the 'preserve the tradition no matter how dreadful gang' to blame for that. thats what led to the mass closure of clubs in the 1970's. Nowadays people seem to record just as soon as they can play a song. Regardless of whether anyone likes it. commonsense tells you the DJ can't have listened to half the stuff they play (they wouldn't have time) - so I suppose that's why they play so much lacklustre stuff. |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: Dave Hanson Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:15 AM They fail because the people with the purse strings insist that the programme should appeal to the masses, but the listeners who like pop drivel don't listen because it contains folk music and the folk music fans don't listen because they [ like Mike Harding ] play too much pop drivel. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: DMcG Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:24 AM I'm not sure it is true in the first place. Certainly, folk music radio programmes do fail, but so do lots of other genres as well as individual programmes. But IF it is true, I think part of it is that folk (jazz, and some others ..) is seen by the audience as primarily something you actively do, rather than just listen to. That doesn't make producing a radio or television broadcast especially easy. |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: GUEST,glueman Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:40 AM They fail because unlike jazz or classical music, folk has no advocates in high places. |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: kendall Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:57 AM It takes more than a teaspoon full of brains to understand it? Seems to me that most modern music consists of yowling and pounding. Inane lyrics at high noise levels. They have nothing to say that is worth hearing so they simply crank up the volume. |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: Howard Jones Date: 16 Dec 10 - 09:15 AM What do you mean by 'fail'? Good programmes which attract a following get taken off because they somehow fail to meet the broadcaster's agenda. Other programmes carry on because they bring in a substantial audience, even though they may fail to connect with a sizeable number of folkies. Success or failure is decided by the broadcasters, often for reasons which have nothing to do with musical content, rather than the wishes of the audiences. |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: GUEST,Alan Whittle Date: 16 Dec 10 - 09:53 AM I agree Howard. perhaps one factor is the fact that they seem to put folk programmes on at times when they are competing with more general broadcating fare. Humph lyttleton's Jazz club ran from 12pm til 2 am - there was a definite sense of opting in. Jazz fans used to bitch about it - hey are we all supposed to be insominiacs in dark glasses? Humph like Mike Harding had nothing to prove - both men had long successful careers as performers. the thing of course that made it work for Humph was that he was working at a time when jazz was very exciting fare - so many great players were still at the top of their form and producing great work. I think Humph got out when the jazz scene went off the boil. I don't really think acoustic music has that sort of frisson of creative excitement about it at this moment of time. theres good stuff around - but not much of it really sets your mind on fire, and will attract a huge devoted audience. |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: Folknacious Date: 16 Dec 10 - 03:03 PM In the UK, it happens when the wrong people are presenting the wrong music on the wrong stations. Yes, I know, define "wrong". What I mean is: when people who are in touch with what's going on are presenting to people who aren't, and vice versa, on stations where the music doesn't fit in with the rest of the output, or what the management would like the rest of the output to be. BBC local stations are trying to get rid of music and become more speech centred, as happened a while back with the BBC World Service. Some of this is because, in cost cutting, a speech programme is even cheaper than a music programme because they don't have to pay PRS royalties. Mike Harding works on BBC Radio 2 because it's somebody with a a vaguely well-known name who doesn't really know what's going on broadcasting largely to an audience who don't care much about what's going on, on a station supposed to broadcast 100% music. In that situation it's a cheap programme that ticks a few public service broadcasting boxes so it stays. No doubt the same applies with slightly different logic to Late Junction on Radio 3. I can't see it getting any better. |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: GUEST,999 Date: 16 Dec 10 - 03:28 PM `Seems to me that most modern music consists of yowling and pounding.` Some of it is. |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: fat B****rd Date: 16 Dec 10 - 03:35 PM You tell 'em, Bruce. |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:23 PM `Seems to me that most modern music consists of yowling and pounding.` I could play you samples of English trad music that would fit that same description. Different strokes for different folks as Sly would say. |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: Folknacious Date: 16 Dec 10 - 06:32 PM Seems to me that most modern music consists of yowling and pounding. Yes, that's definitely a plus. Nothing like a good yowl and pound to wake up the dead people in the back row. |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: GUEST,Dave Eyre Date: 16 Dec 10 - 06:43 PM Not really known many actually "fail". I have known them be swapped around the schedules. I have known them be closed down by management at the BBC - the usual reason here. One I know quite well was closed down and when they asked if the new show got more listeners we were told - that wasn't the point. |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Dec 10 - 06:46 PM Sounds like some of you Bozos are blaming the audience for not liking what has become boring!....Ever think that it might be the writers/composers/players rehashing the same thing over and over again? Perhaps a little innovation, maybe some original thought, maybe some outside licks....even something to say. Maybe using the wisdom of your age, coupled with discovery of youth...maybe even avoiding 'political overtones'...and bring the listener something more human, and insightful, in the 'give a shit department'! Perhaps a little CREATIVITY!..remember that, when you first heard something creative..how it felt? Naw, just blame the audience, and go back to sleep! GfS |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: GUEST,999 Date: 16 Dec 10 - 06:57 PM I am--for the first time--disappointed with you. |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: Spleen Cringe Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:22 PM I have to say that me and my pal Sophie have been putting together a list of folk music shows in the UK along with broader-ranging shows that play some folk music, in the hope of finding people to play Folk Police records and it's not looking as good as we thought it would. I think I'm going to have to send a few CDs over to the other side of the Atlantic. Folk programming seems a bit healthier over there... So... if you present a folk music show or know someone who does, please PM me with details... I have all the Beeb shows and a few community radio shows on my list, but apart from that, nada. Cheers, Spleen |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: GUEST,Alan Whittle Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:26 PM Well I sort of get where GfS is coming from. Its as well other genres of music don't have to fulfil the excitement generating quotient though. Or all broadcasting would cease. There are a lot of things conspiring to make the music so conservative and unchallenging these days. Quite what will shake it all out the doldrums I don't know. As an artist and as a long term observer, I don't know. I wish that I did. I'm getting old now, and I hate that I'm leaving things in a worse state than when I found it. |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: Richard Bridge Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:33 PM Why do all the decent rock music radio stations fail? Remember Xfm when it started? Some pretty edgy rock and a fair smattering of metal and goth. Now wall to wall whiney indie shit. Because there are more whiney indie listener shits (or "chavs") who will buy the crap the advertisers push and fewer people who want any intelligent music. |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Dec 10 - 09:02 PM Guest 999, Were you referring to me??...and why so?, if you were? The fact is, that 'folk' music was 'popular' for a short time, then turned into cliches. Do you think I am glad to see that happening??...N-O-O...but a lot of singer/songwriters/players have fallen down and have stopped innovating. I think they are trying to re-live their past, and wanting for it to come around...again!...but really, after some of the SUPERB artists of that time, you'd think that to keep it alive, we would need to CREATE more, instead of wishing for the 'good ol' days'...and blaming the audiences for NOT understanding the enjoyment WE HAD, discovering all that, for the first time. Let's focus on giving them something NEW, for the first time, as well! Respectfully, GfS |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 16 Dec 10 - 11:50 PM Not quite sure what is happening in England, but the situation in the U.S. certainly has rough spots, but there are HUNDREDS of folk shows around the country. Public radio has undergone change however. "Consultants" come in and tell managment that they need to sweep away their specialty programs because the individual shows do not build consistent audiences. Folk shows tend to build "appointment" audiences who tune in for that show and then go elsewhere for a week until their show returns. These public radio stations adopt a more MOR sound that blends Americana with aging rock artists who no longer have an outlent, and the folk shows on these stations tend to be used as filler - if they remain. Community radio stations fair a bit better as they adhere more to the goals of the original Public Broadcasting Act of 1967 and offer programs that are geared for a "fringe" audience that cannot be served by the commercial interests. Let's face reality. FOLK MUSIC, either traditional or contemporary, is really a "fringe" format. I'm convinced that the audience is bigger than most people give it credit for, but it is not as large - or as recognizable for spending on product - as some of the other genres tend to be. Commercial stations go with advertisers, and advertistes cater to a different demographic than what constitutes the "folk" audience. Still, with all the adversity and the multitude of entertainment options that are out there, folk music is holding strong on radio for the most part. Sirius XM Satellite offers a wonderful 24/7 channel that I think does an amazing job of blending the diverse styles of folk. Folk music on the radio is alive and well, it must may not sound like Grandpa's folk music used to sound - it continues to live and be vibrant to the community that creates it - the true definition of what folk music should be. It is not a museum piece. |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 17 Dec 10 - 12:47 AM WFDU-Ron Olesko: Let's face reality. FOLK MUSIC, either traditional or contemporary, is really a "fringe" format. I'm convinced that the audience is bigger than most people give it credit for, but it is not as large - or as recognizable for spending on product - as some of the other genres tend to be. Commercial stations go with advertisers, and advertistes cater to a different demographic than what constitutes the "folk" audience." So, do you think it possible to change that situation, if the 'folkies' got more serious, and creative????....or is it 'over' as far as ever getting into the mainstream, wider influence of things?? All ears, as to your opinion. GfS |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: GUEST,kendall Date: 17 Dec 10 - 03:26 AM Back in the 60s we had an illegal war in Viet Nam and the protesters numbered in the tens of thousands. The great folk scare was at its peak. Now, we have TWO illegal wars and the young people are silent as the grave. Why? Former Senator, Secretary of state Ed Muskie told me, "You performers have far more power than any of us politicians." Why are we not using it? |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: GUEST,LDT Date: 17 Dec 10 - 04:17 AM Silly idea but random thought came into my head. Why don't EDFSS do a radio show/channel/podcast? Featuring folk artists and 'documentaries'. There's always complaints on mudcat of it being london-centric but a radio show might reach more of the country especially if it was online. |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: GUEST,LDT Date: 17 Dec 10 - 04:18 AM Or is there one and I've missed it? |
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Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail? From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 17 Dec 10 - 04:43 AM LDT. A very simple answer to your question....Money... To set up a Radio Station (even if only available on-line) is very expensive. and , very labour intensive. Nice idea, but, I don't think that EFDSS could afford it. Great idea though. |
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