Why do folk music radio programs fail?

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 04:54 AM

LDT... not anything to do with the EFDSS, but google Folkcast.

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 04:56 AM

@Ralphie
Aww...shame. In my head there would be a presenter in each county so the different shows could have that 'regional' feel yet be under the 'umbrella' of the 'brand'.
Would even in a 'podcast' style like folk song a day be too expensive?

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Bernard
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 06:43 AM

This is obviously a knee-jerk reaction to the demise of Folkwaves (Mick and Lester on Radio Derby), which is NOT a 'failed folk programme'.

Instead, it's one of a number of 'specialist music programmes' that the BBC has seen fit to withdraw from its schedules. This is a decision not made at a local level, but a deliberate shift in the BBC's local radio policy.

The same fate happened to the 'specialist music programmes' on BBC GMR in April 2006. 'Sounds of Folk', presented by Ali O'Brien and me, was one of the 'casualties', but we moved to Oldham Community Radio 99.7fm (also online) where we were welcomed with open arms, and are not far away from programme 200!

So what justification do you have for labelling these programmes as 'failed'?

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 07:16 AM

LDT good point and what I was trying to get across. Unless we, the folkies, do it for ourselves it is threatened.
The options seem to be
Community radio ( vulnerable and not always slick enough to attract many local listeners but can be podcast)
Pooled resources and using the internet facilities, EFDSS would be England's best hub but not likely

Or become part of a threatened Europen culture and value it like Gaelic in Ireland and Scotland

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 10:24 AM

Looks like many responders point out that the folk community is not big enough to have enough power to keep good folk programming going as much as it should.

Yes there are exceptions thanks for pointing them out, however, the consensus is that folk programming is under considerable pressure to go away.

Replacing radio with internet is a great option but it is more a parallel universe rather than actual radio which is more reflective of larger groups, nations, regions, states......

Perhaps my argument is that we need to use all modes and dimensions of broadcasting to keep the folk world as strong as it can be and primarily to increase the transmission of the music to others (that is to say when people hear songs they are more likely to learn and play them) and increase the popularity of the music (increase the audience, cd sales, potential for funding of education))

Many argue in favor of a sleepy small, introspective narrowly defined folk culture. Most likely nothing wrong with it. But will the culture so defined keep itself alive? Is this strategy not dropping the ball -giving up on our obligation to pass the legacy of the music and the cultures to future generations?

Adequate broadcast folk programming is IMHO essential.

I don't think that badgering governments and agencies is the way. If they can demonstrate that programs do not serve large enough audiences it is most likely their obligation to cut them. I see their point. Just so that point is honest and based upon real stats.

It is much more important to talk with performers, festival organizers, venue owners, and the audiences to get them to be as accessible as possible, to drive up the population of folk music lovers to the point that governments and corporations and agencies must take notice.

One can not over emphasize the importance of making folk music accessible at all levels, accessible to the max. Second it should do everything to get rid of aspects that make it appear to be narrow. Dump the stereotypes. What are these? I would suggest a move from ultra liberal politics to no political view. I would suggest getting rid of constant incorporation of other political issues- not that there aren't valid political issues out there but that linking folk anything to political anything automatically chops off part of the potential audiences.

If the folk community is to grow as it has to grow it needs to be appealing to absolutely everyone. No matter how much money a person has they need always to get in the door.

I always use the analogy of Daniel O'connel the Great Emancipator the great Dan of Irish Catholic politics.

When he arrived on the political scene the catholic political party was content to exclude most catholics by institution of high membership dues. O'connel realized that the problem was limiting accessibility. He moved to lower membership fees drastically and soon was talking to Monster Meetings, threatening the English government, and having himself a catholic elected to and seated in parliament.
(for which god rewarded him with a death via infected hemeroids! but I digress)

So that is why the price of a pint at a folk venue matters, that is why festival admission costs need to come down, that is why we need to maximize the number of sessions in relation to performances.

Lots of people are on the right path now. But given the fragile nature of folk broadcasting on mainstream conventional channels it appears we need more people on the right path and get more on the right path more often.

But that's just me- what do you think>

Conrad

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 10:25 AM

kendall: "Former Senator, Secretary of state Ed Muskie told me, "You performers have far more power than any of us politicians." Why are we not using it?"

My EXACT point!..both in this thread, and the other!
Reason:..As stated, in the other thread...."My thrust, was, and still is....that WE have the tools, to bring something better......but first, some of us must extract their thinking appendage out from their digestive tract!"

And coupled with, the mindset that causes 'libs' or the 'left', who a lot of 'folkies' want to identify with, seem to be those who wait for someone else, to do it for them!!...which is also a complaint from the 'right' about the 'left'.

Hell, this 'right'/'left' shit is making everyone dizzy!....anyway, I hope you get my point!

I would say, that if any 'folk' or folk-type music is going to have ANY impact, it needs to stay clear of the political polarizations, and be supportive, and point the way toward compassion, and deal with we humans, caring for each other, as OPPOSED, and in spite of the political crap...which, of course, IS the Oppressor!!..(Both sides)!

Stay tuned,..it might get better!

GfS

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 10:34 AM

Exactly guest from sanity well put!

Its like cutting up a wheel of cheese.

Every time a political, lifestyle or other issue prevails you remove a piece of cheese- a piece of potential- yes the cause maybe good but it is more important to retain all the pieces of cheese if we are to grow community.

Yes there is an important place for politics in music but the only fair way to go is to not let any one side dominate even for a moment.

Play music of all points of view and let your audience decide don't try to decide for them because when you do they will be out the door and its hard getting them back if ever.

Cheese for all~!

Conrad

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 10:49 AM

*#1 PEASANT*: "Play music of all points of view and let your audience decide don't try to decide for them because when you do they will be out the door and its hard getting them back if ever.
Cheese for all~!"

EXACTLY!!!(well said, yourself)....When Dylan did 'The Times They are a Changin'..folkies, especially 'protest folkies' glommed onto it, and stayed they, identifying with that mindset..the only thing they overlooked ..was changing with the times to stay relevant!!!

Now you have threads like: "Why do folk music radio programs fail?" because the old 'folkies' got boring and apathetic!...I hope 'Guest999' is still reading!

Its wake up time, oh heads up your ass dwellers! Time to dust off your instruments of change...and for God's sakes, stop spouting the political dead end. THEY CO-OPTED US, when WE had the ball rolling!..NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!

See ya' later!

GfS

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 08:26 PM

If people would stop over charging the public the public would have more money. Just an idea.

Money can be raised that will suffice if the group is large enough, dedicated enough and closely involved enough.

when the folk community is more or less bystanders seeking only entertainment you wont get as much support. If the community is comprised of those who participate closely with the traditions you will have more.

Lesson- to get more people more deeply involved teach more perform less and of course I suggest as well lower costs, provide access, exclude no one. keep performances human-that is smaller and more intimate.

It can be done
At least known barriers can be removed.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 08:35 PM

What the hell does that have to do with radio programs?

GfS, some performers may keep doing the same stuff, the same way. I haven't seen many performers do that unless they're fairly famous and locked into a routine by the audience's expectations. Personally, what I've seen more often is performers doing something new or different, and people turning their backs on them. Think "Garden Party".

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 10:36 AM

WFDU - Ron Olesko "Commercial stations go with advertisers, and advertistes cater to a different demographic than what constitutes the "folk" audience." "

Guest from Sanity: "So, do you think it possible to change that situation, if the 'folkies' got more serious, and creative????....or is it 'over' as far as ever getting into the mainstream, wider influence of things? "

How can you change a business that is designed to make money?   All businesses have a plan and it has been proven that a station will make more money if they advertise to a younger audience.

Public radio was designed to be protected from the commercial interests, but starting with the deregulation of radio, public radio had to turn its back on the Public Broadcasting Act of 1967 and worry about its own survival.   No one wanted to be regulated for a variety or reasons - freedom of speech as one. Operators did not want to be held under the strict rules that Fairness Doctrine held station owners accountable to. While it spoke to the "tell both sides" story that #1 Peasant is asking for, it is an unrealistic action and is against what freedom of speech is supposed to be about. You do not tell someone what to say, you provide forums for each side to say their piece.

Unfortunately, the downside of deregulation has brought us to the empty suit consultants that dictate the need to raise money for survival. The kind of donations that a folk audience brings is not enough to support some of the larger stations.   I've been lucky to volunteer at a station that has not been subject to these issues, but it is a reality for many.   ALL "fringe" audiences face danger of being eliminated on radio - and make no mistake, "folk music" is a FRINGE audience.   

Still, I am very hopeful. There is room, and there are outlets. The sky is not falling - just a bit cloudy.    If we look beyond the norms that we are used to, we will see that the media has many more opportunities than ever before.    THERE ARE MORE FOLK MUSIC RADIO SHOWS ON THE AIR IN 2010 THAN THERE WERE DURING THE FOLK REVIVAL. That is not just an opinion, that is a fact that has been backed up by research.   The problem is, the audience has diminished and each of these shows are playing to smaller audiences.

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 10:25 PM

Ron Olesko..(and to jeri): "How can you change a business that is designed to make money?   All businesses have a plan and it has been proven that a station will make more money if they advertise to a younger audience."

Tha-a-a-t's right!!..So, WE(YOU) need to do your homework, and create something so fucking far out, that it DEMANDS to be heard..therefor creating your market,,,and your audience!

,,and by the way.....That is EXACTLY what is happening at my end of the world!

Got a gig at a radio station complex, and program, around just me and my music!...People seem to LOVE THIS STUFF!...even though, I'm not using guitars, and such, but rather, keyboards!..No Lyrics, in any but ONE song (original, written for another voice, not my own)..The rest is instrumental, using the criteria of telling the story, ACCURATELY..using NO WORDS! Little Hawk has heard just a tiny bit of it...depending how I play it, it is no less than 29:26 minutes, to 53:42.....and two things I get, when I've performed it in public..a guarantee.....some people in tears, and standing ovations...its gotten to the point where I now EXPECT it!...If this gets any bigger, you WILL hear it...from elsewhere, than me posting it on here....though, when I post it online, 'Mudcatters' will be the first to be alerted!

IT CAN BE DONE!

GfS

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 11:05 PM

why aren't folkies the masses

because they have their liberal heads way up their asses

sorry to generalize but thats about it

Conrad

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 11:23 PM

Conrad, I'm also sorry that you generalize.

Your definition of what is a "folkie" and what constitutes "the masses" are two different beasts. Folk traditions and folk music have NOTHING to do with the masses - never did, never will. Folk music springs from communities and does not require mass acceptance to be examples of what a folk tradition produces.

GfS - I'm not sure what "homework" I need to do. Good art, music and culture never make demands on the public.

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 12:57 AM

Ron Olesko: "GfS - I'm not sure what "homework" I need to do. Good art, music and culture never make demands on the public."

No, silly...on the artists!!...to go further inside to pull out the gems...and doing homework...as in PRACTICING your little asses off!..or studying about frequencies, and emotions..etc etc.

GfS

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 01:44 AM

Very true - and there are a lot of wonderful writers who are doing that - and coming from a tradition but not replicating what has come before then. They honor and add to the tradition, creating songs that are part of their community and lives. Not the naval gazing that some people choose to create stereotypes, but folk artists building as part of the living tradition that has always created folk music.

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 03:54 AM

I expect to see a resurgence in creativity. Harsh times press out the inner beauty within a lot of souls. If people are NOT creating, then I'd think the ones who are not, may just be receptive to those who are, and should 'find it a way back' to certain simple beauties they've known all along! Many of the masterpieces, of history came through the tumultuous times contemporary to the works!

I've been EXTREMELY fortunate that I've been caught up in that process..and shall continue to 'block and re-channel' those energies, and manifest them through music. It can be an extremely strict discipline...but a GREAT ride, at the same time!!

When I was younger, and more active, than in a period in between (did HUGE outdoor concerts in the L.A. area in the late 60's & 70's)...where over 17,000 people were there, and had airplay...a lot came together..but now..jeez, its coming at certain ones of us like a tidal wave!...and I guess we catch it..or drown!

A lot of what I post, to the other musicians, is just for that reason..to encourage those to take another VERY serious look at their instruments, and gifts!..If ever there was a time to be relevant, its NOW!!...and forget what you see in 'commercial' trends..I'm telling you from first hand experience that THERE IS a market NOW..but at the same time, you'd have to get back to reaching the inner hearts and soul of people..or you'll bore them to tears! No one, except numb-nuts are trying to 're-live' the past...but they MAY just want to pick up, from right before, when it started to get lame!

It's gotten to the point, where OTHER people are making bookings for me, because, as I was told, just three days ago, "People just HAVE to hear this stuff"..and stuff like, "I hadn't felt those emotions in 30 to 35 years!"..then she and her hubby proceeded to call a mutual friend who is a VP for a VERY VERY HUGE motion picture studio...meanwhile, someone else was doing the same thing..to another studio.....(Hint: This one has a kid on a bike, flying in front of the moon), the other one used to have a club for kids, in the name of a rodent.....there, I didn't say it, or violate any provisions, of release forms...but you got the idea!)

But nonetheless, you can circumnavigate the screwed up music mogul run industry, and there are ways to get a lot out there..we can do it ourselves!!..but first, you gotta have something to SAY, that doesn't rub peoples noses back into the shit they just came out of...and that is 'political' answers to the human side of things. If anything most all of the political horse crap, is to blame for most of the misery that this nation is experiencing...and one of the things that neither party is willing to do, is just leave us ALONE! They keep muscling their bullshit laws, regulations, fees, taxes, and every other thing known to mankind, into every nook and cranny of our lives!..FUCK 'EM!. We want our lives back!..and a lot of people out there, are responding to musical input that brings it home to them!

GfS

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 08:19 AM

While Ron, it may be ok for things to be small but what is wrong with being big. nothing so why fight it. why not simply work on the accessibility issues that keep growth from happening. why not work on the narrowness of political expression in the community and widen the tent to include all. don't know....

nothing wrong with folk music for the masses is there?

a larger ocean would lift more boats Ron....you are against that?
it would support more artists, more venues, and in the case of this thread more radio programmes.

Or you can just sit in your small room lock the door keep out the riff raff and watch the folk world contract even more.

here we search for solutions not simply proclaim the impossibility of finding them.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 09:25 AM

Conrad - your analogies make little sense.

No one is sitting in a little room and keeping out the "riff raff" - far from it.   Your version of the "folk world" does not seem to resemble what is really taking place, and it does not account for what actually resembles folk music.

You are searching for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, except in your own opinion.   There are more folk radio programs available today then ever before. The audience is there, it may not be as large as other genres in music, but as you probably realize - size does not matter.

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 01:26 PM

*#1Peasant*: "Or you can just sit in your small room lock the door keep out the riff raff and watch the folk world contract even more.
here we search for solutions not simply proclaim the impossibility of finding them. "

..OR get off your ass and come up with something that knocks people's socks off!...and quit waiting for someone to do it for you!!!
"IF YOU BUILD IT, THEY WILL COME!"..remember that??

Problem is, that 'folkies' stated identifying themselves with the 'under trodden', then became them...and cloned onto the liberal left, which is nothing more than, self induced helplessness!

Got news for ya'...If you see yourselves as a child of God, then you ain't a 'victim'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,AndyC
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 08:55 AM

I think the specific problem with the BBC in the uk is that it dsoesn't have a box to tick for english traditional music. Radios Scotland, Wales and Ulster would be expected to cover their particular national traditional / working class cultures (Radio Scotland runs five hours of Scots-based music every Saturday night - country dance, piping and folk) but none of the stations in england have the same obligations. In fact the BBC seem to think that the only requirements in england are to cover the more middle class culture of classical and jazz on Radio 3.

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 11:07 PM

Ron you are on record on not being worried that the folk world is small and limited.

You are opposed- just admit it. You want a small clique rather than a world of folk music thats what you said sorry..

get with it the folk music expands quicker than it is doing or we drop the ball and we all loose the legacy

and yes there are more stations but internet stations are not major stations and their number is meaningless unless we take over the major national and commericial media. this can happen once you take your head outta your ass.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: frogprince
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 11:25 PM

Conrad,no one has ever said anything on this forum which could be interpreted as wanting to limit folk music to an elite clique, or any other small group, except by twisting their words to fit the notions that you're locked into.

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 01:38 AM

Amazing Conrad. I have no idea where you are or what you listen to. I have a radio programme and it has been going just over three years. When will it be judged to have failed?

I think of the time when I started in folk music. It was in the 60's and there were a lot of protest songs. I was at a demo last night. It has a song written specially for it!

There has been a massive expansion of young musicians in the past ten years, many with outstanding skills.

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 04:27 AM

Interesting discussion. In my experience I have to support Ron. Folk music on the radio is a solid presence.

Working from home I can access more folk music programmes than I can possibly find time to listen to in any one week. They all have different styles of presentation, presenter and music. They have all introduced me to new artists, reminded me of old favourites and enhanced by CD collection. Go surf and be amazed!

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,AndyC
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 07:12 AM

Maybe someone should start a thread to list out all of the worthwhile folk and related shows and stations on the radio or the internet. The best one on the radio in england is about to disappear but I'm sure there are others that people will enjoy and which would benefit from support.

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 08:03 AM

Could it be that when the BBC do folk on TV or radio it's always very trad English and given a very old fashioned treatment. For instand the very recent prog on BBC4 with The Unthanks, Bellowhead etc. Not criticising the music it was very good on the whole. But the look and the set were a mix of medieval, Victorian and at times a 'Good Old Days' presentation! In recent year young people have been coming back to Folk music (we've had a 12yr old, 9 yr old and a 14yr old at our club this past year) but it's totally un reflected in the media. Add to that BBC radio presenters of folk tend to be 'old' folkis themselves and very trad English. There is a whole lot more to folk music nowadays but we need to move into the 21st century, sadly the BBC still hasn't come out of the 19h!

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 08:11 AM

They don't "fail", they end. So does everything else. Every human life ends at some point. Every plant ends. Every season ends. Every form of government ends. It's not failure, it's just the end of that particular phenomenon, that's all.

The main reason you see folk music radio programs ending lately is this: a dwindling demographic to support those programs, and less money to be made in that field, as compared to other styles of more commercial music that are presently being pushed by the mass media and the major marketers. That's normal. It has happened the same way with horsedrawn carriages and flintlock rifles, for example....but...you can still find some horsedrawn carriages and flintlock rifles if you go to the right places, and you will probably always be able to find some folk music too.

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Granthampie
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 08:56 AM

Folk music in the UK is still experiencing a huge revival and its not the people who listen to folk who are out of touch... its the BBC.

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Bernard
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 11:58 AM

As I've already mentioned, AliO and I used to broadcast 'Sounds of Folk' on BBC GMR (now Radio Manchester)... the Beeb axed 'specialist music' programmes in general, not just folk (as in the case of FolkWaves), so we simply moved our programme to another station (Oldham Community Radio), retained our audience and have gone from strength to strength. In four weeks time we will reach programme 200!

We've had guests as varied as 4Square and Trio Threlfall, and interviewed such 'big names' as Cara Dillion, Lau, Mabon, Ralph McTell and Peggy Seeger both on the telephone and on location at venues.

A few years ago we interviewed Alan Bell on BBC GMR, and in the New Year he's coming to Oldham Community Radio for a chat.

We try to embrace as wide a spectrum of 'folk' as we can - for example, last night (Monday 20th Dec 2010) we played an up-tempo version of God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen played by a Steel Band from Barbados, St. Agnes Fountain's version of 'Have yourself a Merry Little Christmas' and Isambarde with 'Miner's Lifeguard' (shame they're disbanding...).

It's fact that 'folk' is a minority audience, and shoving your opinions down unreceptive throats is hardly the way to win fans. I believe that the wide range of folk radio (off-air and web-based) currently available not only caters well for addicts, but is bringing in new blood, too.

So let's not jump up and down and fight amongst ourselves... we should be celebrating the wide diversity of what is available and supporting it!

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 12:51 PM

"You are opposed- just admit it. You want a small clique rather than a world of folk music thats what you said sorry"

That is an outright lie. I said nothing of the kind. I disagree completely with your premise, and you choose to put words in my mouth. Shame on you. You are once again twisting facts to support your theory, which has very little validity.

Size does not matter. Folk collectors have gathered gems from "small cliques" in the rural areas of Appalachia, fishing villages in New Engand, etc.   Large audiences continue to gather annually for festivals across the nation. There is a 24 hour, 7 days a week folk channel on satellite radio. There is a 24 hour, 7 days a week folk channel on the internet. There are HUNDREDS

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 03:05 PM

IMHO, folk music is a matter of context. It has to be presented in a format that requires some homework about songs, writers, performers and not just a pastiche or as Stephen Sondheim calls it, a "Piss-stash".

There is a connection between the traditional culture-based music that is archived and the vibrant creativity of the singer/songwriter/political activist. The problem, as Ron has suggested is the carving of folk music into little pieces rather than viewing the whole revival interest in its history and development. It's a big tree with many branches. The singer/songwriter or activist political songwriter owes the Almanac Singers, the Weavers,and Pete Seeger who in turn owe the countless field recordings and examples of traditional American and other country's heritage. Each tributary feeds from the main river.

In fact, it's positively Darwinian.

A show that really educates and advances information about the music is mostly likely to reach people and have staying power. If it entertains with content, it will last.

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 07:24 PM

While political music is a part of the tree excessive activism or narrow rather than inclusive activism alienates those opposed who dont feel that their personal views would find expression in the music as performed. The more the spectrum of political music the more inclusive and the more will feel it comfortable to attend.

No one lifestyle or world view or set of politics should be seen to dominate. Go out and present as much as possible the music of all points of view on an issue. Not just your preference over and over at the expense of all others.

Yes Ron the folk community needs to be big. If you dont think it has to be big then you are in favor of small. Your words : "Size does not matter" it does matter.

And as far as programming goes I dont think there is anything wrong with the grand internet programs now available but I am concerned with mainstream media. National channels. We need to have a community that is sufficiently large and meaningful to keep these going.

And you dont do that by remaining small or infact by fragmenting the attention of the community which now has to keep track of all the internet broadcasting which is not well known and may take listeners away from mainstream programming which will impact surveys which will impact decisions to add or remove programming.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 08:57 PM

You are mistaken Conrad. It has nothing to do with size. You need to go back and look up what constitutes "folk". Your folk community and the folk community that the rest of us belong to appear to be two different worlds.

If you want to study pop culture, then you would feel at home with size.

I'm not sure why you are going off on a tangent about politics. It seems like this whole discussion was nothing more than a ploy to further some agenda you are working on.

Folk radio is alive and well. Folk music is alive and well. No need to worry, just need to observe and participate.

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 09:08 PM

"If you dont think it has to be big then you are in favor of small. "

That is akin to me asking you when you stopped beating your wife.

It does not have to be one or the other. It is what it is.

If you really read my posts, you would understand that I have ALWAYS been promoting folk music and I hope more people discover it, but you cannot force any movement upon the masses without their involvement or interest.   People discover what they like. If you force any artform down people's throats, you end up with the commercial mess we had during the folk revival.   The best will survive and be noticed, as is happening today. We celebrate the diversity of folk music and all the inroads it has made in contemporary pop culture. 50 or 60 years ago, you would not have seen guitars and banjos as prevelant in mainstream culture as you do now. Embrace folk music for all the joy it holds, but don't try to market it like a package of potato chips.

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 09:15 PM

"it is what it is"

No- to optimize preservation of the legacy, to keep people learning to play we can not trust it to be what it wants. We have to examine it and find ways to make it grow and prosper. I would suggest that if programs are canceled it is too small- doesnt have the necessary political power

you dont force music on anyone

you configure things more efficiently so that you attract the greatest number. Right now the folk world has narrow views that lock out many and in some instances other accessibility issues can be easily corrected.

No its not ok to be whatever. You have to do what leads to an expansion on many fronts.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 10:03 PM

Sorry Conrad, but you are not understanding what "folk world" really is. You are not "examining" but rather trying to "enforce" your own views.   Folk music is an examination of a culture, not a manipulation such as your suggesting.   A culture does not have a "narrow" view - it has a view, whether you agree with it or not.

A radio show being cancelled is not a barometer of the growth and prosperity that folk music has to offer. What you are describing is a radio show with a specific audience - large or small - and there are many different styles of radio programs and audience to serve. There are programs dedicated to Irish music, Reggae music, big band music, Latin jazz, polka, Hispanic music, rhythm and blues, country, bluegrass, classical and dozens of other styles and offerings.   Right or wrong, a station owner is allowed to make decisions on what they program - that is their right as the holder of the license.

I would certainly hope that the music prospers, and I see more than enough signs that show it is healthy.   Time changes, technology changes.   At the height of the folk revival, there were only a handful of radio stations playing this music with regularity. The music became commercially succesful in spite of radio neglect.   Fast forward to today, there are hundreds of folk-based radio shows, a 24 hour satellite channel, and many more outlets. People enjoy the music. While it may not rival a hip hop audience, it is doing very well and thriving - whether you choose to believe it or not.

You need to expand your own horizons. Old models no longer work. The music is thriving and there are many of us working hard to keep it alive for the future.   Do not insult our intelligence by trying to create a false reality.

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 02:16 PM

From: *#1 PEASANT*: "Ron you are on record on not being worried that the folk world is small and limited."

..and then there was some squabble, over that....OK..but then music, and culture's taste changes...maybe there is a 'type' of folk music out there, and because it doesn't fit into your particular definition, of traditional 'folk music', that it has altered your perception of what folk music really is, and the origins of where and why it sprang up..... Maybe it is still springing up..maybe in a form that you might readily or normally discard.

Is 'folk music' only happening with acoustic instruments, within a certain 'style'..or is it the spirit that created that music, at those particular times, with those instruments??..and limited only to that time??..and the best we can do, is maybe just re-create it??

I think not.

However, that being said, I sure LOVE a group of acoustic players just kickin' ass!...just don't be afraid of playing with power or(powerfully)!

Oh, and by the way, for all you 'politically correct' protest song 'affectationatos', of protest folk songs, and that vein, Name ONE folk/protest song, that had any impact, even on your life, THAT AT THE TIME THAT IT CAME OUT, was 'politically correct'??????

Hmmmm..interesting...and now those same 'affectationatos' have become numb, AND numb everyone around them, or, tries to numb everyone around them, into the same stupor that those same songs were protesting against!

Or did we admire works from Dylan, Cohen, Ochs, McGuire, Prine, Seeger, Guthrie, Lennon, Rose, Zappa, and others...BECAUSE they came from 'outside the box'?
....and what are you going to promote??..being more 'politically correctly' numb????..and spout the same shit that they're are already getting...that is killing their spirits???!!?...and brought us to HERE?
Maybe lifting UP the human spirit, would accomplish MORE than instructing them what to do, how to think, and what new 'policy' to embrace to their/your bosom!
You might even strike a 'resonate node' in their minds and hearts, that THEIR whole concept of the world, is what is getting obsolete, and maybe room can be made to accommodate those whose engines are run on and by love. Not as 'regulated' to do, but rather that which foments up from our beings....
...and right now, the spirit in the heart of this country, and the world, is what needs to be nurtured a little....you think???

With all this talent on this forum, and the witnessing, first hand, of what is screwing up the rest of society, you have a thread, "Why do folk music radio programs fail?"..and think there isn't a need, and a market????...or does 'Tom Dooley' not understood fully because nobody bent the string a certain way, that you just figured out???

Love to exchange positive feedback...jeez, I'm pointin' the way....also love to get a great female vocalist....

Most Sincerely,
Guest from Sanity

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 02:33 PM

Hello, Ron O. You are wasting your time tryin` to talk sense with Conrad. He`s Mudcat`s leading troll. May as well pee into the wind.

Bruce M

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Bruce from Bathurst
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 03:08 AM

I've found this thread slightly disturbing. Not that I'm paranoid, but I've presented a folk music radio program since 1976 and now I'm starting to get worried.

In Australia, the vast majority of folk programs come from stations in the community broadcasting sector. Most of our community stations have a shoestring budget and they survive thanks to the dedication or downright obsession of volunteers. That might be the same deal where you live and it might not.

Plenty of folk music, and other, programs have disappeared from the airwaves because management committees "identify an alternative developing demographic", or some such blah, and there are presenters who jump before they're pushed, either to the 12-2am slot or out the door completely. Someone might have thought those programs failed but I wouldn't be so harsh.

Our station's 'footprint' covers about 100,000 people across the region but we can't afford to conduct full blown listener surveys so usually our presenters don't know whether anyone's tuned in unless the phone rings. That uncertainty becomes too frustrating for some presenters and they leave. Has their program failed? Not in my book.

Sure, it's always good to get those phone calls and to have those conversations in the street about a great track from last week's program (it's a small town!), but I won't judge success or failure in that way. In my case, I just enjoy having two hours each week to share the music without feeling guilty about not mowing the grass or clearing leaves out of the gutters.

A good way for you to help a program survive is (a) listen to it and (b) find a way to give comments - preferably constructive - to the presenter and/or the station. Tell them you're listening and want to keep listening. It won't help after the program has been replaced by 'Hits of the '70s' so get in now if you have something to say.

As a presenter, I know it's healthy to review my own program and to get feedback. For about two years I used to include one designated 'Bad Taste' track on each program until too many people said they couldn't understand why I thought such nice songs were in bad taste. OK - that might have been a failed idea. (You'll have to trust me. Some were really bad.)

Little Hawk probably got it right by observing that folk programs don't fail - they end. Eventually I could decide to spend more time with the family, or stop driving through ice to the radio station in winter, or move away, or use the time to start on the mountain of unread books sitting next to the CD collection, or I might just get bored with the whole thing. Whatever the reason, I hope I won't think my program failed. All things must pass.

I'm usually a lurker, but this thread pressed buttons.

Bruce

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Harry from Edinburgh
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 05:59 AM

folk music takes slightly more attention span than current hip musics
=
hardly anyone new listens to it
=
those that do would rather argue about what type is the folkiest
+
argue about which nail is exactly going to close the coffin for good
+
slag off anyone who is making a living from folk music
=
even less people want to listen to or be part of that
=
the scene remains supported by the sheer goodwill of a few dedicated people. Comparisons are made to an old man on a life support machine, alive, just, but in no way fit or healthy.
=
the folk music radio programs fail
=
the end

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 08:05 AM

I quite agree Grantham pie
I attended a conference in Sept funded by the EFSDS and the facts do prove that the interest in Folk music has had it's fastest growth period yet over the last few years, as has the interest from younger people increased too. So for sure the demand is there. The failure is the BBC'S for not moving with the times and being obsessed with big names and recording 'stars' Come on BBC get out to the real folk clubs where real FOLK is

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 08:39 AM

Just my two cents worth:

First, the term "folk music" is dated and attracts people of a certain generation... I'd change the term to "alt acoustic"... Sounds more contemporary... Just MO, of course...

Second, way too much "formula" music that has been done over and over and over and most folks, ahhhhh, musicians could play it if they had died the week before... Just MO, of course...

Third, not enough balls in it... Most lack "hooks" because song writers aren't doin' enough experimenting... There are exceptions but they somehow get lost because they allow themselves to be pigeon holed as folk musicians...

Forth, not enough crossover... I mean, people like Buddy Miller, Steve Earle, Ben Prestage, Richard Johnston, Ray Wylie Hubbard, etc... I'n not saying that all programs don't include some of these people but I'd dare say not enough...

Fifth, too many banjos... Awww, just funnin'... Just wanted to see if anyone was actually reading this???

Sixth, folk musicians tend to be snobby... I mean, I like a good head banger band, too... But those bands are considered "commoner" music by lots of people into folk... I mean, there's are some really fine songs out there by "commoners"... With real hooks and real balls, to boot...

Seventh, recording companies ain't what they used to be

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 09:08 AM

...ahhhhhhh, sorry about that... My keyboard decided to quit on me...

I was talkin' about recording companies... Well, they not only used to record folkies but would give them cash advances... Imagine that?!?!?...
I mean, take a group like the Pozo Seco Singers... You think they would get a cash advance from any recording company today??? Haha...

Okay, my keyboard is fixed... I've ranted enough and provided all kinds of opportunities for people to tell me I'm full of bull plus I gotta drive Miss P-Vine to Charlottesville for a doctor's appointment... So ya'll have it...

B~

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 09:10 AM

Okay, I should say that GUEST999, i.e. Brucie, is what folk music should be... His stuff is interesting, has hooks, extremely well done etc...

B~

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 10:12 AM

Well - when my programme fails I will report back.

Seriously folks - my prog goes out on a Community Station and I think it would fail if I started loosing interest and hence quality, failed to turn up occasionally, or a change of management with a lack of taste.

Tick one of the above

but not yet.


Cresby's Cajun Capers (scripts & playlist)
streamed live Stroud FM
alt Mondays 9pm GMT (eg Jan 2) repeated alt Sundays 12 mid-day 13 days later (eg Jan 1 datum).
repeated every Wed @ 3am GMT

Enjoy - hopefully.

the hilarity of jokes can go up as well as down!

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Dave Eyre
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 01:38 PM

One thing I do is to leave a Facebook page open - this allows me to interact with listeners. Sometimes it works sometimes - not.

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 10:46 PM

Bobert, and Bruce from Bathurst, Mr Red,..and any struggling folk radio people, I have to say....and hold on to your chair....(Bobert),I agree with most your post...'alternative acoustic' is a good idea. That works, of course, if EITHER the folk artist stretches a little, and goes 'outside', OR other artist come in, who are playing in the same vein, but not exactly 'pure folk'..much the same as 'folk-rock' was to folk.

I think, that once an audience has been established, introducing new things into the airplay, IN THE SAME SPIRIT, probably won't offend them, as long as it is 'tasty'!

A lot of 'purists' got pissed off at Dylan, when suddenly he did some pieces, in which he went electric...so what??...they either come around, or stay stuck where they are.(Sorta like 'libs')--had to throw that in)....but if you expand your musical base, and still include the basic format, I believe you will expand your listening base, as well.

And then there is playing 'folk' music that is folk music, other than exclusively Celtic based folk music.
That being said, a friend of mine was with
This group but before she left, she wrote this piece for them, and performed it on this video. It is a 'fusion' between Afro beats and Celtic licks. (By the way, she is the violinist/fiddler on this video...some of you may recognize her).....none the less, is certainly SHOULD fit onto any 'folk based' format...as many others I have. Besides, its so damn likable, I don't think anyone with turn off the radio, should it come on!..Matter of fact, they might call into the station and ask, "WHO WAS THAT??!!" ....and it is all acoustic, except for the bass player.

Anyway, there is music out there that definitely would appeal to 'folkies', that may not be pure 'folk'..but is in the same 'ear'.

Get back to me, about this, if you want....and here's another....

Here's another....listen in!!!!

Anything I can do to help,
GfS

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Dec 10 - 08:36 AM

Yeah, I like both them clips... The first one reminds me of an alt rock band from the Pittsburg area that recorded as "Rusted Root"... Nice mix of African drumming and Celtic... The second clip alot like "Enya"... I can take a little of that New Agey stuff but if it came on the radio I certainly wouldn't change the channel... But it's all what I would call "alt acoustic"... Even if it isn't strictly acoustic... I mean, little is strictly acoustic anymore... Everyone talks about this or that being "unplugged" but it ain't really "unplugged"... It's just an acou8stic instrument "plugged"...

Or like Dylan, a not so "acoustic" instrument...

Technically, my "Lowebow" is an acoustic instrument but when I play it thru my Fender tube amp it becomes a seriously rock-ified instrument...

No matter, room for all these sounds under the folk tent... Or, at least, there should be...

B~

Subject: RE: Why do folk music radio programs fail?
From: Fidjit
Date: 24 Dec 10 - 08:49 AM

I did some radio programs in Norway in the seventies. I don't think they failed. Just ran their course until another one took over.

Hey 100
Chas