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BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)

Smokey. 21 Dec 10 - 02:40 PM
Joe Offer 21 Dec 10 - 02:45 PM
Smokey. 21 Dec 10 - 02:47 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Dec 10 - 02:59 PM
Penny S. 21 Dec 10 - 03:38 PM
katlaughing 21 Dec 10 - 04:42 PM
Ed T 21 Dec 10 - 06:43 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Dec 10 - 07:39 PM
Joe Offer 21 Dec 10 - 10:00 PM
mg 21 Dec 10 - 10:11 PM
Smokey. 21 Dec 10 - 11:10 PM
Joe Offer 22 Dec 10 - 01:08 AM
Smokey. 22 Dec 10 - 01:22 AM
Joe Offer 22 Dec 10 - 02:09 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Dec 10 - 06:10 AM
saulgoldie 22 Dec 10 - 06:21 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 22 Dec 10 - 07:17 AM
Ed T 22 Dec 10 - 07:30 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Dec 10 - 10:05 AM
Smokey. 22 Dec 10 - 10:48 AM
Smokey. 22 Dec 10 - 11:12 AM
Joe Offer 22 Dec 10 - 12:54 PM
Ed T 22 Dec 10 - 02:30 PM
GUEST,mg 22 Dec 10 - 02:59 PM
Joe Offer 22 Dec 10 - 03:18 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 22 Dec 10 - 03:22 PM
Penny S. 22 Dec 10 - 03:22 PM
GUEST,999--apologies, that was me. 22 Dec 10 - 03:45 PM
Smokey. 22 Dec 10 - 05:21 PM
Smokey. 22 Dec 10 - 05:59 PM
Smokey. 22 Dec 10 - 06:03 PM
Joe Offer 22 Dec 10 - 06:46 PM
Smokey. 22 Dec 10 - 06:52 PM
Joe Offer 22 Dec 10 - 07:02 PM
Ed T 22 Dec 10 - 07:28 PM
Ed T 22 Dec 10 - 07:30 PM
Smokey. 22 Dec 10 - 07:50 PM
GUEST,mg 22 Dec 10 - 08:13 PM
GUEST,mg 22 Dec 10 - 08:19 PM
Jack Campin 22 Dec 10 - 08:40 PM
katlaughing 22 Dec 10 - 09:27 PM
Smokey. 22 Dec 10 - 11:21 PM
Ed T 22 Dec 10 - 11:26 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 23 Dec 10 - 02:10 AM
GUEST,Patsy 23 Dec 10 - 03:29 AM
Joe Offer 23 Dec 10 - 03:52 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 23 Dec 10 - 04:33 AM
Joe Offer 23 Dec 10 - 04:50 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Dec 10 - 05:28 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Dec 10 - 05:36 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Smokey.
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 02:40 PM

I do not know how extensive the coverups were, and I have no idea why it was so important to these bishops to cover up the information.

This document makes that pretty plain, though naturally it doesn't explain the Vatican's reason. We can only speculate on that, but the very existence of the document implicates the collusion of the entire heirarchy.


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 02:45 PM

As for the child abuse scandal, I know that the situation in Ireland was far worse than it was almost anywhere else. Dublin had a string of dictatorial archbishops over a number of decades, and their oppressive rule affected the Catholic Church all over Ireland. But Irish church leaders over the past couple of decades seem to be far more moderate (despite some mistakes in handling the horrible damage done by this scandal). I would hope that things are different now in the Catholic Church in Ireland.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Smokey.
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 02:47 PM

...or even implies it.


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 02:59 PM

"I would hope that things are different now in the Catholic Church in Ireland."
Nothing to do with dictatorial Bishops, who have always been there.
More to do with the uncontrolled influence the church has ALWAYS had over peoples' lives - that hopefully has gone now, thanks to their own behaviour (probably the best thing to have emerged from this sordid mess).
You've got to hand it to them though, they're still trying to maintain their grip on peoples' minds.
Front page news this morning is of a woman with cancer who was advised that her pregnancy was a threat to her life; she was advised to have a termination.
The hospital authorities decided that her condition wasn't life-threatening enough, so, in her delicate state, she was forced to go to England for her termination.
Not too different, eh?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Penny S.
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 03:38 PM

Joe, I came across those quotes in The Guardian.

Report of Pope's speech

It looks as though the paedophile reference is strictly accurate - there were people, though not many, making that argument back then, and the Pope's words can bear that meaning.

I'm sorry you are feeling beleaguered - your vision of what the Catholic Church should be is good - if only the heirarchy wre more like that. Or Andrew Greeley.

Happy Christmas,

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 04:42 PM


Kat, it's quite obvious that you did not understand what I said about my reason for using the word "Father." At the time he committed his crimes, that was his title. I'd rather disown the man, but I have to humbly admit that at the time he committed his crimes, he was a priest in my church. My use of that term was my admission of that sad fact.


No, you misunderstood me, Joe. No one is questioning your acceptance of that "sad fact." What you aren't *hearing* is how hurtful it can be for victims to still hear such ilk called by what they are no longer, i.e. "Father." It was bad enough when it happened. No need to constant reminding.


And, how do you reconcile these two statements:

I don't really care whether people are punished for what they did fifteen years ago, as long as they're in a position where they cannot do it again.

and,

Saying that people were bad and they need to be punished, is not enough. Understanding is far more important than punishment - although I do not deny the need for punishment for crimes.

Do you want them punished or not? Do you really not care if they did it long enough ago?


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Ed T
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 06:43 PM

It seems important to see the actual text of the pope's speech, and a tape of what he said, as they can differ.

Joe said:

"I would say that only some people do significantly bad things in the world. I would also say that only some Catholics do significantly bad things in the world.

But maybe that's a difference in our overall worldview. I see the vast majority of the people in the world as good, and only a small percentage as evil. In my experience, most people are pretty good people".


There is a big difference between the two concepts. One is the act (and interpretation) of doing bad. The other is whether you knowingly participate in doing good or bad. They differ...that is why I took issue with your statements.

Lets say the USA military bombs a village in Iraq, for example. To the folks in the USA (and, the troops), this can be seen as good, as the perception is they are being protected in the fight against terrorism (aggression). To the Iraq people who are impacted, (their families die) this is a bad act. Above all of that is there are dead people that possibly did not need to die? So, would the Global RC church (and the local parishioners) see this as good or bad, if the solder dropping the bomb were a local RC?

I try to stay away from Good and bad RC church (and God believers, in General) arguments related to distant history. While there are some really bad things that happened in history, under the watch of the RC church, there was a certain prevailing view (I suspect) that has to be taken into account...but, I don't know where the line should be drawn? Surely, the slave trade, residential schools and the like.. And treating other humans like sub species must be wrong (bad). But, how do we rate it in today's standards? I don't know...that's why I mostly stay away from those discussions.

Many bad things (that impact others) happen in the world. And, many of the folks doing them feel comforted, even revered, in church.... (In some of the RC countries, and others, I mentioned).

The USA and its allies control a huge amount of the world's wealth. It surely is a good thing to give a portion to aid others (but, what amount)? Is it good to hoard wealth, for shiny trinkets, when others are starving? Others, who are starving may see this as bad? Do you feel God has a western, or USA, sympathy?

Evil is another topic. But, then, some evil acts, under any reasonable standard, have been committed under the sign of white mans cross in world history.

Just some of my thoughts on doing good and bad, and on being a good person.Not to claim they are right, or wrong....


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 07:39 PM

""I don't really care whether people are punished for what they did fifteen years ago, as long as they're in a position where they cannot do it again. I do desperately want to know why they did what they did, so we can make sure it does not happen again.""

Surely the best way to make sure it doesn't happen again is to bring those who covered it up to justice Joe.

Some of the people who committed these crimes have not been put into a position where they cannot again offend, and those who covered up for them are certainly able to do it again, unless we deal with their crimes as we should already have done.

Would you make the above statement in relation to murderers, armed robbers, muggers or burglars?......I think not!!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 10:00 PM

Don, I think that to be effective, punishment for crime must be immediate. If fifteen years have passed, I don't think punishment does a whole lot of good; and I think we reach a point in time where society is better off easing off on its quest to "bring criminals to justice" - yes, even to some extent for murder. In general, I think that felonious crime should be punished. However, I think we reach a point where punishment doesn't do much good and wastes a lot of the resources of society. Fifteen years after the commission of a crime, the whole world has changed. Current priorities need to be considered along with the need for "justice" for past offenses.

As far as I can see, the child molestation crimes peaked during the 1980s, both in Europe and in the United States. I think it's quite clear that all crimes of molestation should be punished, within reasonable limits. As for the coverups, I think it's a different story because responsibility for the offense is not so clear-cut. The coverups are for a large part a function of the organization, and the organization has changed radically in the last 20 years. The Catholic Church is no longer the powerful entity it once was. The number of priests has been greatly reduced, churches in Ireland and Europe are often empty, and the leadership of the Catholic Church in Ireland has changed almost completely. So, whom do you prosecute for the coverup crimes committed so long ago?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: mg
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 10:11 PM

Could we start with Cardinal Law, perhaps in abstentia. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Smokey.
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 11:10 PM

Joe, you seem to be ignoring an important aspect of punishment which is as a deterrent to others. However insignificant a factor anyone may claim it to be we know it works to some degree and that is infinitely better than none at all. All offences should therefore be dealt with on an equal basis regardless of how long ago they occurred.


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 01:08 AM

Remember that I worked as an investigator for the U.S. Government for 25 years, doing security clearance investigations. I could do a pretty good job investigating incidents that happened up to five years ago, but I hated the ones that went back 15 years. It's well-nigh impossible to do an honest job investigating something that took place 15 years ago. People change, and their memories and perceptions change.

If a person committed a crime 15 years ago and didn't get caught, I suppose that's his good luck. If he hasn't committed any other crimes in the last 15 years, then I don't see a lot of harm done by his getting away. Most likely, he HAS committed more recent crimes, and he'll get the punishment he deserves getting caught on something more recent.

But it always pains me a bit when I see a long-forgotten fugitive get caught and sent to jail, after living a decent life for a number of years. It pains me to see a prisoner executed after 25 years on death row, no matter how horrible his crime was. If punishment is not immediate, people move on and change. If they've changed for the good, then that punishment becomes an injustice.

As for the Pope's speech, I think the Guardian's summary didn't quite do him justice. His entire speech can be found here. The Guardian makes it appear he's shifting the blame for the child molestation, but he doesn't do that at all.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Smokey.
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 01:22 AM

So you would disregard the effect of punishment as a deterrent? Or dispute it?

The message to would-be child molesters would be that it's okay if you can remain undiscovered for long enough. Lucky? Not for the victims.


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 02:09 AM

Smokey, proving a 15-yr-old case of child molestation is different from proving a 15-yr-old cover-up. Contrary to most crimes, the victims of child molestation are more credible witnesses years after the crime, after they have become adults. Unfortunately, that makes it possible for the molester to continue undetected for a long time.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 06:10 AM

Throughout this and other threads discuussing child abuse, there has been a persistant and somewhat cynical attempt to shift the focus of attention on to the abusers, who now appear to be being presented as old man beyond the reach of the law, and away from the past and present responsibility of the church in facilitating the abuses and allowing them to take place for as long as they did and to the extent that they did.
This letter from this morning's Irish Times sums up what has happened, and what should have happened.
I would be interested in a response.
Jim Carroll   

WALSH ABUSE AND COVER-UP
Madam, - As a person brought up in the Roman Catholic faith and who served as an altar boy, I have very grave reservations at why it took the archdiocese of Dublin 17 years to report Tony Walsh to the civil police authorities.
For a priest like Tony Walsh to have been able to abuse children on a scale similar to Brendan Smyth is deeply distressing. We will perhaps never know the number of children's lives that this man ruined and sent to their graves. His abuse of hundreds of children, and the deep pain and emotion these innocent victims could no longer cope with, ultimately led to many committing suicide.
The whole church system of dealing with child sex abusers seems to protect the abuser and not the victim. Canon law and the procedures the Catholic Church in Ireland operates under are still today the biggest part of the problem.
In 2010 there is a Cardinal and Primate of All Ireland living in an ivory tower in Armagh and also a number of bishops - present and emeritus - across Ireland who still live in denial and who do not fully comprehend the enormity and scale of the child abuse that occurred in virtually every diocese, including my own of Down and Connor. These clerics are obviously living in a world totally apart from the victims who were abused by servants of the church and God.
Now the Stormont Executive has announced an inquiry into historical institutional child abuse in the North (Home News, December 18th). If this inquiry is ever to have any lasting and permanent credibility then it should fully extend its remit not only to the church institutions but to all cases of child abuse in every diocese in the North. The cost should not matter, and the Stormont Executive should fully ensure that canon law, the Irish Catholic Church, and Rome do not prevent or delay the conduct of a full investigative inquiry.
Furthermore the victims should be the primary architects of this inquiry, and request that the Irish Catholic Church fully co-operate to the inquiry's requests for information. The Stormont Executive should also ensure that if the Irish Catholic Church does not assist, that court and police authorities can intervene.
To the deceased and living victims of child clerical abuse in Ireland we can only pray and hope that one day the Irish Catholic Church will finally accept that they have been the core crux of the problem.
Yours etc        
John Hoare
Carrigard,.
Dundrum. Co Down.


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: saulgoldie
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 06:21 AM

I came in to this thread late, and I am too slow a reader to go over all the posts just now (when I am getting ready to go to work). So forgive me if this has already been said. But...

Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. And we are all G-d's children. And though this person is accused of what I consider the most vile of crimes short of murder, we must remember this.

Saul


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 07:17 AM

Does first-hand testimony from the victims count?


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 07:30 AM

"If a person committed a crime 15 years ago and didn't get caught, I suppose that's his good luck. If he hasn't committed any other crimes in the last 15 years, then I don't see a lot of harm done by his getting away."

That statement indicates a disregard for (is insulting to, and belittles) victims of the crimes of those in a position of authority. Unfortunately, many otherwise caring RCs have shown disregard, even contempt for the many victims.... some who have come forward, and some who have not (and, don't fool oneself, they do exist).

Personally, after all that has come forward, I find this attitude mind-boggling. Though, I suspect it is "somewhat representative" of thinking within "the organization".

Most sex offenders offend again, unless caught. They just get better at hiding it. If this organization has not fixed what is wrong, it will likely occur again, and again go undetected by the organization, and enablers. It is not reasonable to put "hope" in the other direction.

It's may be like a mother who never sees her child (who becomes an adult) doing wrong, even it is crystal clear to others.


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 10:05 AM

""Smokey, proving a 15-yr-old case of child molestation is different from proving a 15-yr-old cover-up. Contrary to most crimes, the victims of child molestation are more credible witnesses years after the crime, after they have become adults. Unfortunately, that makes it possible for the molester to continue undetected for a long time.""

So, when finally the victims are far enough removed from the horror they have suffered to talk about it they should be told "It's too late, you'll just have to live with the knowledge that the people who caused this harm, by commission or omission, got away with it, while you will live with the consequences for the rest of your life".

D'you want the job of explaining that to them Joe?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Smokey.
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 10:48 AM

Smokey, proving a 15-yr-old case of child molestation is different from proving a 15-yr-old cover-up. Contrary to most crimes, the victims of child molestation are more credible witnesses years after the crime, after they have become adults. Unfortunately, that makes it possible for the molester to continue undetected for a long time.

I know that, Joe - what's your point? If it can be shown that someone committed an offence or had knowledge of such and did not report it to the police, they should face the consequences regardless of when the offence took place.


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Smokey.
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 11:12 AM

Punishment is not a very effective deterrent if it is not carried out.


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 12:54 PM

Yes, somebody will be able to make a "show case" out of one or two incidents and maybe get a conviction against somebody for this coverup; but after 15 years, it's a question of who said what when - and how do you prove that after 15 years? It ends up being a witch hunt.
Now, I haven't heard anything about victims in Ireland claiming damages against the Catholic Church. Can it be that all people are seeking is criminal convictions?

As for the criminal charges of coverups, give us a few names and tell us specifically what these people did - and tell us what function these people are serving in the Catholic Church now. Otherwise, we're just arguing in the abstract. If it can be shown that an individual committed a crime, even 15 years ago, then it's up to the courts to decide.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 02:30 PM

"As for the criminal charges of coverups, give us a few names and tell us specifically what these people did - and tell us what function these people are serving in the Catholic Church now. Otherwise, we're just arguing in the abstract. If it can be shown that an individual committed a crime, even 15 years ago, then it's up to the courts to decide."

Now that's a cop out. Joe O is starting to put forward a Steve Shaw type arguments..."show me the evidence, or there is no God".

LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 02:59 PM

I am not necessarily seeking criminal convictions. I am seeking an outing of the coveruppers and an outcry from the faithful that this (coverups, entrenched abuse) is unsufferable. I want independent journalists and law enforcement to do what they must do and that they would do if a regular citizen did certain things..the journalists certainly have gone above and beyond in many situations to inform us and remove the cataracts from our eyes. I want the trails to lead where they may. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 03:18 PM

A cop out? C'mon, Ed - all I'm asking for, is to take the discussion from the abstract to the concrete. It doesn't do a lot of good to get steamed up about a hypothetical situation. What have individuals done, and what proof of criminal conduct is there that will hold up in court? Also, what is the Statute of Limitations on such a crime in Ireland?

My experience as an investigator tells me that getting a conviction for a 15-yr-old coverup would be well-nigh impossible. I'm talking practical here, not whether it's right or wrong.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 03:22 PM

A hypothetical situation? What have individuals done? I don't believe I'm reading this.


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Penny S.
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 03:22 PM

Joe, thank you for posting the link to the Pope's speech. It does help to read the original - I was interested to see how he used a vision of Hildegard of Bingen.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: GUEST,999--apologies, that was me.
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 03:45 PM

`Personally, I'm more in favour of a longer sentence.`

Ya gotta use more adjectives and adverbs.


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Smokey.
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 05:21 PM

They don't just grow on trees, 9. At the moment I'm so poor I can barely afford punctuation.


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Smokey.
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 05:59 PM

Joe, the evidence has to be actively sought before it can be found; that's the nature of a cover-up. People have to be hauled in and interrogated. Of course it's difficult - they're covering it up. There's nothing abstract about it though, we are talking about real crimes with a great many suspects, many of whom are on record as having known about the abuse and failing to report it to the authorities. There is no excuse, and the church should bear the cost of investigation.

Do you not have anything to say about the deterrent aspect of punishment for these crimes?


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Smokey.
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 06:03 PM

after 15 years, it's a question of who said what when - and how do you prove that after 15 years?

It's more a question of what they didn't do, which is considerably easier to prove.


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 06:46 PM

Au contraire!
Proving what somebody didn't do?
Well-nigh impossible!

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Smokey.
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 06:52 PM

Not in these cases. It's pretty easy to prove that someone didn't report a crime, and in many cases it's already known that they knew about it.

There are probably also cases where it was reported to the police by victims and they did nothing. That obviously presents a more difficult situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 07:02 PM

That's a big question I have - why didn't victims report the crimes to police themselves? If I were victim of a crime, that's the first place I'd go.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 07:28 PM

Read this short report. If you have an interest in answering some of the odd questions posed at this late point,(and I am not sure everyone wants to know). It gives a picture of the circumstances in a "culture of silence" that some of these "young" boys faced. I suspect you will find some of the answers as to why children did not report incidents, as were ignored or punished when they did.



Physical and Child Sexual Clergy Abuse in Ireland Inquiry


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 07:30 PM

If you are seeking "guidance" from the Pope on priest sexual abuse, here are some interesting pieces from his speech...taken directly from what was posted by Joe O.

"under the mantle of the sacred profoundly wound human persons in their childhood, damaging them for a whole lifetime".


"We must accept this humiliation as an exhortation to truth and a call to renewal. Only the truth saves.

We must ask ourselves what we can do to repair as much as possible the injustice that has occurred. We must ask ourselves what was wrong in our proclamation, in our whole way of living the Christian life, to allow such a thing to happen.

We must discover a new resoluteness in faith and in doing good. We must be capable of doing penance.

We must be determined to make every possible effort in priestly formation to prevent anything of the kind from happening again.

This is also the moment to offer heartfelt thanks to all those who work to help victims and to restore their trust in the Church, their capacity to believe her message. In my meetings with victims of this sin, I have also always found people who, with great dedication, stand alongside those who suffer and have been damaged.

We are well aware of the particular gravity of this sin committed by priests and of our corresponding responsibility".


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Smokey.
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 07:50 PM

Fine words. Someone should ask him why he covered it up for so many years when it was his job to know all about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 08:13 PM

if you were an 10 year old altar boy? mg


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 08:19 PM

Are there cults within the Vatican that practice this? I truly and honestly can not understand the motivation to cover up at the highest levels. This is more than the lonely priests of Ireland suffering from too much celibacy. There is something else. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 08:40 PM

why didn't victims report the crimes to police themselves? If I were victim of a crime, that's the first place I'd go.

I made the mistake of trying to get help from the Gardai when I got robbed in Dublin.

If they couldn't be arsed trying to deal with a gang of teenage thugs after a complaint from an articulate middle-aged academic, why on earth would you expect them to take on a rapist priest when the complainant is a probably-incoherent working-class kid?


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 09:27 PM

...why didn't victims report the crimes to police themselves? If I were victim of a crime, that's the first place I'd go.

Joe, I feel real surprise that you seem to be so disconnected. I know you've worked with abused women. Do you know how many times a woman might NOT call/go to the cops because of the threats she's heard, to herself and her children, if she DOES go to the cops?

Can you not imagine how it would be for a young child who has been taught to look up to a person of authority who then abuses them, THEN threatens them with damnation, etc. IF they tell anyone about what was done??

Do you have any idea of the pervasive culture of the RCC in Ireland and other countries? Have you read Angela's Ashes? If you doubt anything of the power he tells about of the RCC in their lives, we have a Mudcatter who lived just around the corner and can you all about why someone would not go to the cops.

I am surprised that you seem so naive, Joe, or, in complete denial.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Smokey.
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 11:21 PM

There is also the threat of violent abuse to consider too. I doubt those kids were ever even aware of the option of complaining to someone.


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 11:26 PM

"The majority of children will not admit to the abuse even if they are asked. For various reasons children do not report the abuse and sexual abuse is not always obvious. There are warning signs of sexual abuse or behavioral signs that indicate abuse has occurred. Many times very young victims do not understand that they are being abused. They may understand later, but at the time they have no knowledge that the abuse is wrong.

The statistics on victims reporting are shocking. More than thirty percent of victims will never tell anyone that they were ever abused. About eighty percent will deny the abuse when first asked or are afraid to admit it. Seventy-five percent of victims that tell often do by accident; it just blurts out. More than twenty percent will recant their story even when abuse has occurred.

Many say that children lie about the abuse. Young children have nothing to reference to when discussing sexual activity unless they have experienced it. Sexual abuse reports that were fabricated account for only one to four percent of all the reported cases. Adults file seventy-five percent of these false reports. Fabricated stories by children occur about one-half percent of the time".



http://childsafetips.abouttips.com/children-dont-report-sexual-abuse.php


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 02:10 AM

The first time a case of Walsh's abuse was reported to Gardaí they started an inquiry and asked the church, in the person Mgr Stenson, if there had been any history of problems with his behaviour.

This has been mentioned several times Joe.

Stenson 'evaded' the issue and the inquiry was dropped.

Culture of silence, evasion and cover up.


Another case was mentioned in articles linked in this thread where Gardaí didn't act after complaints were made.

Gardaí should bear some of the blame for ignoring signs. The word from the church carried more weight with them than that of working class Dubliners from Ballyfermot.

Why didn't victims didn't go to the police? Do you really have to ask that question Joe?


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 03:29 AM

We should really thank organisations like 'Childline' for enabling children to confide their problems and councellors who are there to encourage children to talk about what has happened to them in strict confidentiality. When I was young there was no such thing and it was very much the child's word against the adult, if the child was brave enough to speak up about it in the first place. Most children then were either acused of lying or of having an over vivid imagination or blackmailed into keeping quiet about it and often having the blame reversed on to them. The culture now is it is alright for children or abused women to speak up against anything inappropriate and probably has to do with why so much is coming to light now.


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 03:52 AM

Oh, I'm quite aware that many victims don't report crimes against children. But if it was reported to the church, why not to the police? And if the victim was an adult or accompanied by an adult at the time of the report, I would think it even more likely that they would report to the police. All of the known cases in my diocese of Sacramento were reported to the police and most resulted in convictions, but I don't know whether it was the victims or the diocese who reported the problem.

I suspect that the offenses may not have been reported to the church officials in a way that was credible. It takes a trained and perceptive interviewer to get the facts of a child molestation offense. Still, with abusers with multiple victims, it seems that the problem should have come to the attention of the police more often. Perhaps the Irish police does not have officers that specialize in crimes against children. Not having such officers would be unthinkable in urban police departments in the U.S.

When I came across allegations of child abuse or molestation in security clearance investigations, I relied chiefly on police and court records, and on the testimony of adult sources. There was a time or two when a supervisor suggested that I should interview a victim who was still a minor, and I refused. I saw no value in putting a child through that for a pre-employment or security investigation, although it would most probably be necessary in a criminal investigation. In cases that I investigated, the evidence for the criminal cases was gathered by law enforcement officers with extensive training in crimes against children.

I realize that many of you have your minds made up about all this, but I'm not so sure. It's easy to assume that the church officials were merely callous and evil and protective of their power structure, but was that really the case? My experience is most people (even priests) really would like to the right thing; but that failures like this are more likely to have been caused by people not knowing how to handle the situation - that's why police departments have specialists handle this sort of crime. It's too easy for an untrained interviewer to scare the victim away. We had one investigator who thought he was the best there was, but we constantly got complaints whenever he had to investigate problems of a sexual nature. He just didn't know how to do it in a way that didn't scare witnesses. He didn't intend to scare the witnesses - he just did. I'm sure a celibate, childless priest would not be the best kind of person to elicit sensitive and embarrassing information from a child.

In his message above, Ed T posted a number of Pope Benedict quotes from an address I had linked to. Ed, I think the Pope "gets it" now, and he's sincere in his comments. He really has no reason to dissemble any more. There's nothing more to hide. It's in his best interest to get it all out in the open and get it over and done with.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 04:33 AM

Stop that Joe. Walsh fully admitted what he was doing when asked by the early eighties. The other priests and the hierarchy knew. In detail.

Yet in 1991 when Willie Walsh suggested to the college of bishops that it was time the guards had a go at stopping Walsh he was rebuffed for his 'outrageous suggestion'.

That's matter of record. Don't put the responsibility for reporting and consequent action at the victims' doorsteps. The train passed that station long ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 04:50 AM

Stop what, Peter? Stop seeking the truth? How can we ascertain the truth if we don't ask questions?

You're speaking of one case, Peter, the case of the most notorious offender in Ireland. Walsh admitted what he did, was sent for treatment, and was declared cured by a medical expert (with some reservations). He offended again, and was removed from ministry in 1990, prosecuted in 1995 and convicted and sent to prison in 1996. It took a long time, but in Walsh's case, something was done - and there were actions taken in his case from the very beginning. Not criminal prosecution, but intense residential psychiatric treatment.

But Walsh's case was not typical. It was one of the first to be prosecuted; so it's likely that many of those who came in contact with the case, did not know what they were doing.

But what about other cases? It's easy to assume the answers, but what really are the answers? There's no doubt that the church officials failed miserably in dealing with these crimes, but was their failure due to callousness or to lack of expertise? How would YOU handle a child who came to you about a situation like this? How would YOU respond if you were accused of failing to handle the child's complaint effectively? Can you or I honestly say we would have done better?

You can assume that all of these church officials are bad, bad people and they need to be punished to scare people into not doing this in the future, but is that really the case? I think we're a long way from good answers to this problem, and we need to keep asking questions until things start making sense. Assuming the answers isn't good enough. Getting your answers from newspaper articles isn't good enough, either. Too many details are missing from the news accounts, and too often the reporters add "spin" to the article - as evidenced by the differences between the Guardian summary and the Pope's actual remarks.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 05:28 AM

""We must ask ourselves what we can do to repair as much as possible the injustice that has occurred.""

Is he for real? Does he actually believe it is possible to repair not only the abuse, but the betrayal by those who wantonly failed to take the proper action.

As to the reactions of parents, in Ireland at least the parish priest was the voice of God, and parishioners had been brainwashed from early childhood to believe every word he uttered. Of course they found it difficult to believe any child who accused him. According to all they had been taught, he was incorruptible.

There were in the past two authority figures in every community with whom one did not argue, the priest and the doctor, and there is an old gag about how strong that feeling was.

It seems there was an old couple and one day the wife called the doctor to come and examine her husband who had collapsed. When he arrived the old boy was stretched out on the floor, stiff as a board.

The doc examined him, and told the wife "I'm sorry my dear, but your husband is dead. The "body" suddenly twitched and sat up, and the old boy said I'm not dead".

The wife turned on him and said "Lie down George, doctor knows best".

It was certain that an accusation of abuse would be disbelieved by a massive majority of parishioners, and believe me, you wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of the righteous wrath of a bunch of Irish Catholics when you accuse their priest.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 05:36 AM

""Oh, I'm quite aware that many victims don't report crimes against children. But if it was reported to the church, why not to the police?""

Because they were too scared of the church to demur when told "Don't tell anyone else. Leave it to us. We'll deal with it".

Joe, In the USA you may never have experienced what is meant in Ireland by the phrase "Fear of God". It was very real, and it extended to an equally real fear of the priests.

Don T.


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