Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]


BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)

GUEST,Peter Laban 18 Dec 10 - 12:56 PM
GUEST,mg 18 Dec 10 - 12:38 PM
Smokey. 18 Dec 10 - 12:34 PM
Ed T 18 Dec 10 - 12:31 PM
Joe Offer 18 Dec 10 - 11:50 AM
Greg F. 18 Dec 10 - 11:42 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Dec 10 - 08:57 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Dec 10 - 06:16 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Dec 10 - 05:56 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 18 Dec 10 - 05:55 AM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 18 Dec 10 - 05:50 AM
Joe Offer 18 Dec 10 - 05:37 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Dec 10 - 05:37 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Dec 10 - 05:24 AM
GUEST,CrazyEddie 18 Dec 10 - 05:15 AM
Joe Offer 18 Dec 10 - 05:08 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 18 Dec 10 - 04:42 AM
Joe Offer 18 Dec 10 - 04:41 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Dec 10 - 04:39 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 18 Dec 10 - 04:36 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 18 Dec 10 - 04:28 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 18 Dec 10 - 04:27 AM
Joe Offer 18 Dec 10 - 04:26 AM
Joe Offer 18 Dec 10 - 04:10 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 18 Dec 10 - 04:05 AM
Joe Offer 18 Dec 10 - 03:58 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 18 Dec 10 - 03:34 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 18 Dec 10 - 03:19 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 18 Dec 10 - 03:06 AM
Smokey. 18 Dec 10 - 01:09 AM
Joe Offer 18 Dec 10 - 12:50 AM
Smokey. 18 Dec 10 - 12:36 AM
Joe Offer 18 Dec 10 - 12:30 AM
katlaughing 18 Dec 10 - 12:29 AM
Smokey. 18 Dec 10 - 12:08 AM
Joe Offer 17 Dec 10 - 11:49 PM
Smokey. 17 Dec 10 - 11:40 PM
Joe Offer 17 Dec 10 - 11:34 PM
Smokey. 17 Dec 10 - 11:30 PM
Joe Offer 17 Dec 10 - 11:24 PM
katlaughing 17 Dec 10 - 10:54 PM
Joe Offer 17 Dec 10 - 10:47 PM
Rapparee 17 Dec 10 - 10:32 PM
Joe Offer 17 Dec 10 - 10:25 PM
GUEST,mg 17 Dec 10 - 09:40 PM
Ed T 17 Dec 10 - 09:31 PM
Smokey. 17 Dec 10 - 09:08 PM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 17 Dec 10 - 09:03 PM
Joe Offer 17 Dec 10 - 08:57 PM
bobad 17 Dec 10 - 08:55 PM

Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum Child
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 12:56 PM

I have said a few times Joe, making those who sheltered the abusers from the law and let them continue their abuse answerable would be a good start wouldn't it? They'd think twice about doing the same next time a case of abuse is brought to their attention.

It's a start and above all it would show the victims that justice is done by them.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 12:38 PM

To solve the problem? Call the bishops and anyone who did not report crimes to the police, or who obstructed justice, and have the legal system run its course. Shine the light of day on the coveruppers and let the people have their say to them. Let the people say how this has affected their participation in the church and their monetary contributions. Listen to what non-Catholics and fallen-away Catholics have to say. Hold the pope responsible for a lot of this mess, especially for what he failed to do in positions of power prior to being pope. Won't solve the problem, but it will give the rats fewer places to hide. And I am sympathetic to a man driven to this sort of behavior for what knows cause. I know a good part of the cause as I was raised in the same way by a religious fanatic mother..originally protestant so I can't blame the Catholics, especially the Irish Catholics for her behavior, other than basically encouraging it. But my father, a nice man, a mild sort of Catholic, somehow taught us to put up with her abusive ways wrapped up in religion. You have this dynamite combination of religion, repression, out of control behavior on the part of some who somehow end up being Christian brothers, and a passive, submissive group of people. It needs to be studied to death. mg


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Smokey.
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 12:34 PM

The problem has not gone away. What can be done to actually solve the problem?

Keep the clergy etc. and young people separate at all times. Don't provide the opportunities.

Unfortunately I don't know how to prevent other areas of child abuse, nor does anyone else, and they aren't that relevant to this discussion.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 12:31 PM

"You're fooling yourself, Ed T. Child molestation happens wherever there are children. If you can find a convenient organization like a church to blame it on, then you don't have to face the problem yourself....Statistics show that most likely, it has happened in your own family and in your own neighborhood, and you have ignored or denied the telltale signs"

Does anyone recall anyone saying that this child molestation does not occur in other areas or in society? I do not.

The reason the RC church and its organization are being blamed for sexual abuse is it happened, and the organization has not fully dealt with it. Just how many who allowed this to happen inside the organization has been held accountable?

Joe Offer continues in his attempts to "water down" the "child molestation elephant" inside the RC organization (as many other RC's do). Sorry, it does not work.

There were (are) cover-ups and there is no reason to believe those responsible are not still inside this organization. There are also no reason to believe that many more got away with it, and quite possibly still are at it (child molesters don't get better, they just get better at it under closer scrutiny).

Facts show many of those abused by RC priests were not those very young children who are molested in society that Joe spoke of earlier. They were young boys. Many did come forward with their stories, and were pushed aside by the RC organization to allow the guilty to continue their abuse. Only after facing civil actions by these boys, turned adults) has the RC eventually "fessed up".

I suspect the loss of respect for the RC organization will not end until this church "gets it" and forgets trying to protect the guilty and the brand. Attempts top water down the abuse just makes it worse. It's like an unremorseful murderer saying "many people murder, so my actions are not that bad.

And, yes Joe Offer, I do personally know the stories of a few children who were sexually abused. Each one is now an adult. Two were young girls abused by their father. But, four of them were abused by RC priests.... priests who got off with it. But, that's another story. I am certain that not one of them would be comforted when you say callously "oh heck, it happens all the time".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 11:50 AM

Don, special legislation was enacted in California to temporarily lift the statute of limitations so dozens of cases could go to court - and most of these cases had been settled decades earlier. No, if it had happened in a public school or an athletic team, the recent cases would not have gone to court.

The case of Fr. Tony Walsh, which engendered this thread, went to court for criminal prosecution in 1995. Walsh was removed from the priesthood in 1990 - as I said, when Margaret Thatcher was still Prime Minister, which means it was a long time ago. The story of Walsh was thoroughly covered by the Murphy Report in 2009, but was withheld from publication so as not to jeopardize criminal prosecution. As I have said before in this thread, this is not something new.

So much is said here about the "power of the Church." Go into an Irish Catholic Church on a Sunday and count how many people are there. You'll find most churches are almost empty. The "power of the Church" is no more. You're beating a dead horse, and ignoring the current problem.

Several people have accused me of "denial." Just what is it that I have denied? All I've said is that I think people here dwell on the past far too much, and go crazy over every new revelation of something that happened in the 1980s. There is no discussion here about what is being done now or what should be done now. There is no attempt to understand the causes of child molestation or the solution of the problem. The problem has not gone away. What can be done to actually solve the problem?

-Joe Offer-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 11:42 AM

Ya know, its probably way past time that folks stopped abusing priests.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 08:57 AM

While I do not agree with Jim's inflammatory language, insofar as I am concerned with individuals who (for whatever reason) let down the ideals of the Church, not the institution itself, he is right in supporting both enquiry into, and action upon these events.

Two interesting snippets of fact which quite accidentally dropped into my lap last evening.

Within the Vatican State the age of consent is twelve, unchanged when the rest of Italy raised it to sixteen in the 1920s. I have no idea whether there are any children among the 500 population, though it seems unlikely.

Also, the Vatican State, with a population of 500 has the highest per capita crime rate of any state on Earth, with some 600 crimes reported annually.

I wonder who are the miscreants among a population mainly composed of clerics?

Don T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 06:16 AM

".......the statute of limitations would have long expired."
Are you seriously suggesting that there should be a statute of limitations on serial child rape spread over decades, possibly centuries, by members of the most influential organisation in the state?
It took seventeen years for the Diocese of Dublin to act on Walsh's crimes, during which time hundreds of other children were abused - making the diocese full accomplices.
The first complaints, at a time when Walsh could have been stopped in his tracks, were not acted on by the diocese, except to send a priest around to visit the victim and lecture him on "the issues of male sexuality" - the rest is history.
The Vatican overturned Walsh's expulsion because of their attitude that paedophelia is a sickness rather than a crime.
From an outsider's point of view, the chuch is rotten to the core, from the top down and is a threat to the wellbeing of the people - particularly the children, of any nation where it has influence- prove to us that this is not the case.
Far from this going away, it is now proposed that an enquiry is opened to examine the behaviour of the Catholic Church in Northern Ireland - watch this space.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 05:56 AM

""No, Don, we wouldn't be having this conversation - because in most cases, the statute of limitations would have long expired.""

In most Western countries the statute of limitations allows for prosecution of cases by adults who were victims in their childhood, commonly more than twenty years on.

In California, an abuser was prosecuted in 1998 for abuse committed as long ago as 1955.

And your comment about the depth of the RC Church's pockets is utterly unworthy.

What has the size of their bank balance to do with the prosecution of those who allowed more children to become victims by covering up the activities of knownabusers?

Apportioning blame is not the issue, since the accessories to these crimes are already known.

They perpetrated the grossest injustice upon the victims, and in line with your above statement, I am not prepared to shut up and let it drop, and I wonder why you apparently are prepared to do so. It doesn't fit with your earlier comment.

Don T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 05:55 AM

"Nobody cares about the children who suffered"????!!!! Do you bother to even read anything anyone else says? "It's all about blame"? No. It seems to be all about denial. You don't count the victims' testimonies as proof, knowing damn well that after this amount of time forensic proof is impossible. A nice getout which allows you to dismiss the whole lot. Blame at least SEEKS justice, which is better than pious platitudes.

And we've been through all these why-didn't-the-parents etc. issues in the other thread(s), exhaustively, trying to make clear to you the demographic conditions in the Ireland of those days, and the reasons why ordinary members of the community couldn't just "keep pushing until somebody listened". That's a luxury of a freer society, which has choices and isn't emotionally held to ransom by a single almighty institution in power. The final Somebody was the Church. All complaining did was make pariahs of any troublemakers, who were then also emotionally blackmailed with the flames of Hell - which were very real to true believers - if they dared speak out against holy Big Brother.

Just re-read some of the past posts in those other threads, where people try to point out to you the differences of the world those families lived in and the world you live in, from where you cast your judgments and call anyone who contests them irrational, and decide what they do and don't care about. You're a pretty dab hand at casting blame yourself, I seem to recall.

I can't see the point of taking time to write everything out again and again just because you don't want to believe certain things. We've been over this same ground before, repeatedly. You just don't like the answers.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 05:50 AM

How can people come on here and make excuses for them ?
Abuse is a long tradition in the Catholic Church. There is not a clergyman today that can claim he had no knowledge of abuse in the church since his/her very first day in seminary. The church always looked the other way and seriously rebuked complaints within. Reckless sexuality is the hall mark of a large majority of the popes. Our latest was a flagellant and Pius12 had a long term lover that left him at his death, never to be seen again. Murder, rape, pillaging, assasinations, torture, child abuse, gluttony, lust pride, avarice...all a part of Catholic historical identity.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 05:37 AM

We wouldn't even be having this conversation if it were a case of another organisation (e.g. a private school) which had covered the actions of a member of staff to protect its reputation, and I believe you know that.

No, Don, we wouldn't be having this conversation - because in most cases, the statute of limitations would have long expired. In this case, limitations have been totally ignored, because the Catholic Church has "deep pockets." In my diocese, the victims were compensated generously and promptly at the time they filed their complaints. The standard rate was $25,000 or $40,000. But when the matter arose again in the press in the last decade, the victims demanded and were given additional compensation - a million dollars apiece. Mind you, the matter was handled correctly the first time, and the crimes were reported and the offenders punished.

But fifteen years after the fact, it's well-nigh impossible to prove or disprove what actually happened. There's no doubt the molesters should be punished severely, no matter how long ago their offense - but the rest of this has become a witch hunt. And worst of all, this witch hunt won't heal any of the harm that has been done, and it won't serve to prevent future harm. Nobody cares about the children who suffered - it's all about blame.

And no, there is no inconsistency in my statement. It is my responsibility to right the injustice I see - not merely to pass the blame on to somebody who failed to take action. Again, I have no doubt that church leaders failed terribly in these incidents that took place twenty and thirty or more years ago. I do not deny that.... but has anybody ever heard of the futility of crying over spilt milk? What are you going to do to ensure this sort of thing doesn't happen in the future? Dwelling on the past will do nothing, nothing at all.

-Joe Offer-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 05:37 AM

""I was brought up to think that if I saw an injustice, it was my responsibility to see that it was put right. That fact that somebody didn't listen to me the first time, wasn't a valid excuse that allowed me to drop the matter.""

Joe, do you really not see the inconsistency in that statement.

You acquired that moral compass, at least in part, from your Roman Catholic upbringing. Do you not think that the actions under discussion were an injustice, and do you not think that the Church should practise what it preaches?

Don T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 05:24 AM

""I do think that the threads on this subject have gone way overboard in dwelling on the past and on blaming all sorts of elderly people for things that happened twenty to forty years ago.""

Joe, people are blamed for their actions only when those actions come to light, and the evidence is there to be acted upon.

How many years after WW2 was Adolf Eichmann caught, tried, and convicted.

Besides that, you are pleading special privilege for the Roman Catholic Church, based on its religious nature.

We wouldn't even be having this conversation if it were a case of another organisation (e.g. a private school) which had covered the actions of a member of staff to protect its reputation, and I believe you know that.

Those who abet and hide a crime are as guilty as the perpetrator, and as deserving of just retribution, whatever and wherever they may be.

We are discussing neither the prevention, nor the causes of child abuse. The subject under discussion, stripped of irrelevant matters, is the proper treatment of those who wantonly allow it to continue, thereby becoming accessory to the crime.

Don T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 05:15 AM

"The Fr. Tony Walsh story was a terrible thing, but it ended when he was prosecuted 15 years ago."

I wonder if his victims would agree with that statement? I's say they are still living with the consequences.

The points that must be made are:
(1) There can be no statute of limitations on crimes like his.
(2) Those who covered up his crimes(whatever their actual intentions) helped to enable him to carry on abusing others. They should be prosecuted as the law allows, (accomplice/ accessory/ perverting the course of justice etc.
(3) It must be made clear that society will never again allow any institution to operate as a law unto themselves.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 05:08 AM

No, Bonnie. I don't have a solution. Nobody has, and so they run around crazy looking for somebody to blame.

I do know that the problem will be solved only if people take responsibility, rather than simply passing the blame onto somebody else. You don't want to hear this, but why didn't the parents of the victims report the crimes to the police? And if the police didn't listen, why didn't the parents keep pushing until somebody listened? Who better than the parents to fight for justice for their children?

Yes, it was cowardly for church officials to attempt to cover up these crimes, but they were going to have to pay a high price for what happened. I do not absolve them whatsoever of the blame they must shoulder for covering up these terrible crimes - but what did the parents have to lose by reporting these crimes?

I was brought up to think that if I saw an injustice, it was my responsibility to see that it was put right. That fact that somebody didn't listen to me the first time, wasn't a valid excuse that allowed me to drop the matter.

The question now is not what happened fifteen years ago. The question is what we can do NOW to prevent these crimes from continuing. What's your answer? I really want to know. I want a rational, honest discussion, not a constant circle of nothing but blame. Blame doesn't heal.

-Joe Offer-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 04:42 AM

You want a neat solution to a complex problem, handed to you on a china plate. Even if that could be done, what's the point? All you will do is reframe it so you can ignore the bits you don't like and reclassify the rest until it suits your views. You haven't given a solution either, I notice.

And don't you dare imply I'm irrational. You're the one with the denial issues. I'm not wasting more energy and constructive work time going over the same ground again and again when you're only going to believe what you choose to believe anyway. How about you give us a solution? And a rational one. Got that?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 04:41 AM

Peter, it was a different time back in the 1980s, when these crimes were committed. People believed that child molesters could be sent to expensive psychiatric treatment programs and be cured. Criminal justice emphasized "rehabilitation," and there were all sorts of diversion programs designed to reform criminals and keep them out of prison.
These programs didn't work, and the response to crime has swung to the other extreme - all we do now is punish, punish, punish.

I don't think either is the answer - but I'm honest enough to say that I don't know what the answer is.

I do think that the threads on this subject have gone way overboard in dwelling on the past and on blaming all sorts of elderly people for things that happened twenty to forty years ago. We need rational, practical answers to this real, terrible problem - but all Mudcatters can do is point the finger of blame.

The Fr. Tony Walsh story was a terrible thing, but it ended when he was prosecuted 15 years ago. Expanding the blame for a story that ended 15 years ago is fruitless - what can we do now to stop future molestation? That's where the issue is. We need answers, not blame. This is an urgent problem - wallowing in blame is not going to solve it. Give me answers.

-Joe Offer-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 04:39 AM

"If you're so damn knowledgeable, tell us how to solve the problem of child molestation, once and for all."
You will never find a cure for child molestation - but institutionalised abuse by employees of the most powerful body in the state in the full knowledge of their employers is inexcuseable and unforgiveable - I wonder how long any political party (or political system, for that matter) would survive if it was politicians who had been using their position to rape children?
According to the latest revelations the leadership of the church was fully aware of the abuses throughout the time they were happenning AND DID NOTHING - they were implicated in the abuses, and in other circumstances, would be liable to prosecution.
The very least that has to happen is that the church must never again hold a place of authority in the state, should ONLY minister to the spiritual needs of those who freely choose to accept them, and only then, under close scrutiny.
THEY SHOULD NEVER AGAIN BE A LAW UNTO THEMSELVES.
If these are "old" crimes, perhaps we might be told when rape, or murder, or assault, or torture, or terrorism..... reach a sell-by date and are no longer criminal offences?
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 04:36 AM

Irish Times:

Scale of Walsh cover up by church breathtaking


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 04:28 AM

Speaking of this case, things aren't fuzzy. Complaints were made, the nature of the man's crimes was known. A member of the hierarchy spoke with the man, I believe during the mid eighties, the man did not deny any of the allegations and in fact admitted to one case that had not been reported. He was NOT reported to the authorities. He remained a priest. He remained in a situation where he could and indeed did continue his offences on a large scale. The gathering of Bishops called it 'unimaginable' that the perpetrator would be handed over to the authorities.

What's not clear about that Joe? Don't you think the people who shielded the man and his crimes from justice should shoulder some of the blame?

I have no solution for the problem but removing abusing priests from office and let justice take it's cause would be something of a start wouldn't it? And I mean ofcourse, these having these actions take place immediately, not after letting a situation fester for a decade and a half. Because that's the thing Joe, the church is only seen to be acting when it can no longer avoid it. Not immediately and decisively when it needs to.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 04:27 AM

Oldest trick in the book, Joe.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 04:26 AM

C'mon, Bonnie. I want answers. I take this problem every bit as seriously as you do, and I want a rational solution.
Rational. Got that?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 04:10 AM

OK, Bonnie. Tell us.
If you're so damn knowledgeable, tell us how to solve the problem of child molestation, once and for all.
I tried to be honest. I'm not covering up or denying anything. It's a problem I take very seriously, I've studied it for years, and it is still a puzzle for me.
I find no easy answers to this problem, but apparently you know all the answers.
So, why don't you just enlighten us all?

If you get the impression I'm angry, then your perception is correct. This is a horrible problem in the Catholic Church and in all of the western world, but it's not going to be solved if all people can do is point the finger of blame at each other.

-Joe Offer-

In this case, there's no doubt that the molestation went on for a long time, from about 1978 to the early 1990s, even after Walsh was removed from the ministry in 1990. It didn't stop until Walsh was prosecuted in 1995 and convicted and sent to prison in 1996 - but that was 14 years ago. This is not a new case.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 04:05 AM

It all looks pretty foggy??? Things do look foggy when you don't want to see them.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 03:58 AM

Well, I have to say I'm still struggling to understand all this, and I haven't found answers that make sense to me.

People seem to be so certain that they know all the answers, and it all looks pretty foggy to me.

I can certainly agree that those who commit crimes against children should receive swift, certain, and severe punishment - I have no question about that whatsoever, and I am very reluctant to believe in the possibility of rehabilitation.

What I'm not so sure of, is the extent to which other people should shoulder responsibility for these crimes. Sexual crimes against children are very difficult to detect and to prove, because children don't completely know what's going on and they are reluctant to report it.

These crimes often go unreported for years, and often are never reported. Adding to the problem is that child molesters are often very charming and convincing - that's how they attract the children they prey on. That also makes it hard for adults to believe that such a charming person could do such a thing. It's not only church leaders who don't believe the children and don't report the crimes to police - the parents also should be responsible for reporting crimes committed against their children. That's something I can't understand - why didn't the parents go to the police?

Another thing I don't understand is why people expect church leaders to be aware of these crimes and able to control them. Parish priests are largely autonomous, with very little supervision from the bishop's office. It is the people of the parish who have the opportunity to observe the conduct of priests on a day-to-day basis. In our town, there is a cadre of right-wing lay people who monitor the priests very closely, and keep a steady stream of complaint letters going to the bishop's office, if Father says so much as an inaccurate word during Mass ("people" instead of "men," for example). The most common real problem we have with priests is alcoholism, and usually it's parishioners who make sure the problem is dealt with - the bishop's office has no way of knowing, unless parishioners convey that information.

I've been in the Sacramento (California) Diocese since 1980, and this diocese has always had procedures for dealing with complaints of sexual misconduct by priests. In almost all cases, the complaints were handled quickly and with compassion, and with a minimum of red tape. Almost all of the offending priests were removed from ministry as soon as the complaints were found to be valid. I was in the seminary in Milwaukee 1962-70, and that diocese had procedures for dealing with sexual misconduct back then - we were put through extensive psychiatric screening when I was in college, and several seminarians were removed (at the same time, the director of St. John's School for the Deaf next door was molesting students, but that's not something we knew about).

Both Sacramento and Milwaukee had cases that weren't handled perfectly, but that's to be expected. If you've ever worked in a criminal justice system, you know that it's impossible to stop or to catch every crime. One hundred percent just isn't possible. Whatever you do to prevent or punish it, crime is still going to happen. You do the best you can during your work shift, and then you go home and try to forget it until tomorrow.

I spent 25 years as a federal investigator, so I'm not naive about these things. I have investigated a number of people who were accused of child molestation, and there were a number of cases where nobody was able to do anything about the crime because there was no solid proof. Crimes against children are very, very difficult to detect - and even more difficult to prove, especially when they happen within families. I can think of one law enforcement supervisor who molested his stepdaughter, and I was not able to get him removed because I couldn't get solid proof. If I can't prove a case against a two-bit macho molester cop, how can I expect a bishop to know how to deal with a priest who's molesting? And in my own experience, the most frequent offenders were married law enforcement officers, not clergy. There's something about being employed in law enforcement that can really bring out the weirdness in people.

It's a complex issue. I hear lots of blame repeated here, over and over again - but I don't hear any answers. All I hear are cries for revenge and punishment, but very few rational answers to this terrible problem. I think we need to begin asking questions and thinking. It's time to get to work, and stop pointing fingers of blame.

-Joe-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 03:34 AM

In a lot of these cases, the "original offense" may have taken place a long time ago (as though that's supposed to make some difference) but how about when the abuse also WENT ON for years too? It's an irrelevant point to even bring up, much less try to use as a mitigating factor. The abused kids who later committed suicide over it - and don't kid yourself there weren't any - stay dead. Yep, even twenty whole years later. Still dead.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 03:19 AM

This morning's Irish Times :

Arxhdiocese took 17 years to report abuse priest to gardaí

Start a Thatcher thread if you think that's an appropriate comparison to this sort of cases.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 03:06 AM

Old case Joe? Well maybe. But tell that to the victims.

The most disconcerting about the whole affair to me is that once again the hierarchy failed their flock by letting the man at it. I have probably seen more news coverage on this at this stage and, based on more extensive coverage than the newspaper articles provide, there is no denying that the man was let go about his business while there was full knowledge what his business was.

Is that old hat? I am not so sure. Many of the priests that failed to act, indeed actively shielded the affair from the authorities, are still functioning within the hierarchy. Should they be held accountable? I think they should. Because if they don't I don't believe there can be any guarantee present and future abusers will not be shielded from justice again and again. Will that result in full proof safeguarding against abuse? I am afraid not but it just might go a bit towards avoiding letting these matters go on, and let the perpetrators of these crimes do what they do without any serious attempt at stopping them. Until then, we'll keep pointing the fingers of blame.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Smokey.
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 01:09 AM

I doubt it, and it's rather crude.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 12:50 AM

It's controversial, but I wonder if castration and five years in prison might be a more effective punishment.

-Joe-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Smokey.
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 12:36 AM

It's more a question of removing him from society to where he can do no harm. He should be locked up until he is at the very least decrepit and incapable of further offences.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 12:30 AM

Nine years in prison is a long, long time. Thisis on top of the six years the man has already served, 1996-2002 (click). I know there's a tendency to think that longer and longer prison terms are needed for the more heinous crimes, but I think that anything over five years in prison is a lifetime. The current Conventional Wisdom demands harsher and harsher sentences, but there's no evidence that it does any good for anybody but prison employees.
Our current system of "justice" in the Western World is vengeance-based, and it hasn't served to solve our crime problems.

-Joe-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 12:29 AM

Me, too, Smokey.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Smokey.
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 12:08 AM

He could be out for good behaviour in nine years, despite getting a total of 123. Seems very wrong to me.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 11:49 PM

This Irish Times article gives very graphic details of the actual offenses, and makes it clear that Walsh had at least one criminal conviction in the 1990s. Apparently, he fought the more recent criminal trial for some eight years, but lost his fight. I hope he was in jail during those eight years, but maybe that's too much to hope for. Still, the fact of the matter is that the church dealt with the matter in 1990, and the Garda in 1995. What's happened since, is merely the time that it takes for judicial procedures to progress.
As Smokey says, the recent conviction was for offenses that took place "during the late 1970s to the early 1980s" - the same offenses that got him removed from the ministry in 1990 and began the police prosecution effort in 1995. Has he been in police custody since 1995?

-Joe Offer-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Smokey.
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 11:40 PM

Yes, but that, as you say is old news and incidental to the subject matter.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 11:34 PM

But as I read the Irish Times article, he was convicted of other offenses in the 1990s and sentenced to 6 years in prison. The more recent conviction is apparently for offenses that came to light more recently. The article is a bit unclear on that, but it does appear he did prison time after a conviction in the 1990s.

-Joe Offer-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Smokey.
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 11:30 PM

The news is his recent belated conviction:

"His conviction on December 6th paved the way for the publication of the 29 pages of the report referring specifically to him. He was jailed for 16 years, with four suspended, following his conviction of the sexual abuse of three boys from Ballyfermot during the late 1970s to the early 1980s."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 11:24 PM

The thread title is "And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)." But actually, that's not the cases. The thread presents no evidence that there is one more abusing priest than there was yesterday, or ten years ago, or twenty years ago. This isn't news - this priest was prosecuted in 1995. No, there's no excuse for this having happened in the Catholic Church - I never said there was an excuse. All I'm saying is that Mudcatters are experts at beating old news to death. And yes, it smells like bigotry to me.

This former priest's story is significant because, as the Murphy Report says, "Fr Tony Walsh is probably the most notorious child sexual abuser to have come to the attention of the Commission… His pattern of behaviour is such that it is likely that he has abused hundreds of children."

But it isn't news. It's an old, old story - just like Maggie Thatcher is an old, old story. It's not "more abusing priests" - it's new and revealing information about a molesting priest who was convicted of his crimes and went to jail - a long time ago. There's more to come in this story. The Catholic Church was merely one of the first places where it was discovered. Child molestation is happening everywhere. That's an old story, too - but nobody has paid any attention to it.

I don't that celibacy should be required for priests, but I don't see any evidence that celibacy causes child molestation. Child molesters are mentally disturbed, not just victims of celibacy rules. Child molestation is something far deeper. Having a wife won't cure a child molester.

-Joe Offer-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 10:54 PM

It's the RC which puts such an unrealistic onus on its priests and nuns, though, Joe, to never have any kind of sex. That's not the norm in any other part of society. And, it's not always been the case in the RC. They used to allow marriage. I don't care how noble a "calling" is, very few individuals are invulnerable to the sexual drive. If it is suppressed and coupled (no pun intended) with dire predictions of purgatory, etc. it can become perverted and the adults look to the most vulnerable, the children, for release. It is sick and, yes, it does happen in all of society, but that does not excuse what has happened in the RC and could still be happening for all we know. Your remark about Thatcher was not germane and really beneath you, imo. I know you love your church and you feel defensive about it, but there is no justification for any of what has happened and it will be an ongoing process of revelations as people continue to grow up, speak out, investigate, etc. One doesn't stop talking about the elephant in the room and hope it will go away.

kat


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 10:47 PM

When I lived in Sacramento in the 1980s, the man across the street beat his kids. Not brutally, but he'd lose his temper all the time; and he'd hit them a lot, yelling terrible things at them. Sometimes, I did quiet things to intervene, but I never reported him to the police. I figured it was his wife's responsibility to do that. Everybody in the neighborhood knew he was beating his kids, and I was the only one who even made a feeble attempt to intervene - and believe me, my attempt was feeble.
You watch something like that, and you don't know what to do. You're half afraid that calling the police will just make him madder and more likely to harm a child. And he and his wife lost a child to drowning early in their marriage - was that the cause of his anger, or was the death of his child really his fault somehow.
All I can say is that I saw it, and I didn't know what to do. Eventually, the wife divorced him and he moved out of the house, and the neighborhood quieted down. But his angry outbursts were a disconcertment in the neighborhood for a long, long time; and nobody did anything about it.

Physical abuse of children is a very obvious thing. Sexual abuse isn't. It often doesn't get reported for years; and people really aren't likely to believe a report of a five-year-old incident if it wasn't reported right after it happened. It's human nature to deny things like this. If you don't see it, the tendency is not to face it. Even in very obvious cases like the child abuse I witnessed, it was hard to know what to do.

-Joe-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 10:32 PM

It has happened, to my certain knowledge, in the Baptist, Latter-Day Saints, Methodist, and Lutheran religions. It has also occurred in both the Boy Scouts and the Girls Scouts.

I know people who, if they had their way, would permanently remove all proven child molesters from society no matter who they might be.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 10:25 PM

You're fooling yourself, Ed T. Child molestation happens wherever there are children. If you can find a convenient organization like a church to blame it on, then you don't have to face the problem yourself. There's no doubt that the Catholic Church is in large part to blame for countless instances of molestation that were committed by priests. I'm not denying that at all. But if you scapegoat the Catholic Church, you're looking at only the tip of the iceberg.

Statistics show that most likely, it has happened in your own family and in your own neighborhood, and you have ignored or denied the telltale signs. Or maybe you just didn't notice - that happens a lot. Everybody ignores it. Everybody denies it. Nobody wants to get involved, because it's somebody else's business - until we can find a convenient scapegoat to dump all the blame on.

-Joe Offer-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 09:40 PM

We have to ask why it is protected at the highest levels. Why molesting children, mostly boys it seems, is protected, when if a priest runs off with a nun, or someone like Father Cutie is seen on the beach with a pretty woman, that is truly shocking. There is something, some sickness that has endured throughout the ages, that not only wants to protect this behavior, but almost preserve it. mg


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 09:31 PM

"unless we come up with honest answers about why such offenses happen in our society, and what can be done to prevent them"

More specifically, why these happen in The RC church, (rather than watering it down to society) and why the RC organization has failed to deal with it in a meaningful way?

I suspect more energies have been directed on attempts to minimize the impact on the brand "the church and the central organization" than on compassion towards the abused than on actual change. It is predictible to put the blame on the victim, rather than focus on the source of the problem (which I suspect has not gone away on its own, but is merely in remission).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Smokey.
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 09:08 PM

If the news takes 20+ years to reach the public, that is when it will be discussed. I can't see any way round that, apart from making a much greater effort to catch current offenders.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 09:03 PM

Watch this programme that went out on Irish television last night about them. These scum deserve the full wrath of the law to come down on them.

http://www.u.tv/utvplayer/video/134183

Margaret Thatcher was never found guilty of child molestation, so why bring her into it ?

That comment was in very poor taste.

Watch this video.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 08:57 PM

....and when the perpetrators are no longer in authority and have gone to jail for their offenses; and the victims are well into adulthood, what then? How long do we keep pointing the finger of blame?

I will admit that this story is particularly interesting, since this former priest was unbelievably tenacious in his attempt to fight his removal from the priesthood, and in his efforts to find children to molest.

We can keep pointing back at these incidents of twenty and more years ago, and we can smugly condemn all the retired and dead and incarcerated people who committed the offenses - but that won't prevent future offenses, unless we come up with honest answers about why such offenses happen in our society, and what can be done to prevent them. This is a problem that afflicts all of humankind, not simply other people and churches we don't happen to belong to. We need to find solutions, and it's damn well time we quit wallowing in blame.

Do I think the problem has been solved? No.
Do I think the Catholic Church has instituted practices that will prevent future problems? No, and I think the Church and society are naive to think that any "solution" is fail-safe.

-Joe Offer-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: bobad
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 08:55 PM

I fear that these abuses will continue as long as the Catholic church maintains it's archaic law of clerical celibacy.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate


Next Page

 


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.



Mudcat time: 6 February 8:07 PM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 2022 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.