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BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)

ollaimh 22 May 12 - 04:51 PM
MartinRyan 22 May 12 - 05:28 PM
Ed T 22 May 12 - 06:15 PM
Ed T 22 May 12 - 09:06 PM
GUEST,mg 23 May 12 - 01:23 AM
ollaimh 23 May 12 - 12:39 PM
GUEST,mg 23 May 12 - 12:46 PM
ollaimh 27 May 12 - 08:06 PM
eddie1 28 May 12 - 10:47 AM
GUEST,mg 30 May 12 - 07:03 PM
ChrisJBrady 31 May 12 - 06:13 AM
GUEST,mg 01 Jun 12 - 12:41 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: ollaimh
Date: 22 May 12 - 04:51 PM

joe, there hasn't been adequeate transparensy"? the vatican has given refuge from prosecutuion to an americaqn cardinal charged with obstruction of justice. saying there hasn't been adequeate transparency is a kin to saying hitler had bad moods.

they have done everything and anything to prevent prosecution and to protect its pedophiles. this is to the point that a group of local catholics i know firmly believe that they are helping the pedophiles move around so they can find new victums(er fun).the catholci church has done everything and anything it can to attack those who were victums--untill they are stopped by the courts. right now they are suing a chicago self help group to force them to reveal their records of people victumized by priests. all the other major denominations have major problems but the catholic chirch is a criminal organozation to the highest levels. ratzinger is being investigated for obstruction of justice in germany right now(although i doubt the german government has the guts to actually charge him.

there are thousands of on going criminal prosecutions and you say "there hasn 't
been adequeate transparancy"/ what there has been is total stone walling and criminal obstruction to protect the child rapists. this could be a golden opportunity to clean house and establish decent levels of oversight and discipline but they have done nothing towards that end.

it's probably jst as well i don't have the time to read mudcatregularly. the kooks rule here


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: MartinRyan
Date: 22 May 12 - 05:28 PM

Joe

Of course it doesn't make sense - that's the whole point! At this remove, it is very difficult to imagine what the power of the institutional church was in post-independence Ireland - and indeed, in a different way, before independence. That power was predicated on the church mediating God to the people, essentially, and was exercised in, no doubt, the sincere belief that the church needed to protect itself from its bad apples. The thought of protecting innocent children never entered their heads! The consequent secrecy became an enabling factor for abusers - in sexual and other fields.

Regards


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Ed T
Date: 22 May 12 - 06:15 PM

Pick the most likey reason for the braod cover up: Let's not forget it was not the rank and file followers who instituted the cover up-though they pay the financial costs associated (Get over it RC folks, you were "thrown under the bus" for the mistakes and cover up attempts by those at the top of your organization - and punished for their bad deeds by the legal system). Logic says knowledge of the situation and strategy reached to the very top of an organization that was controlled from the top.

1) "Fear of being found out" - is there a logical reason not to believe that a few, possibly more, in positions of authority either committed the same acts, or knowingly let it occur. Do we really know how imbedded this behaviour was inside the organization -that is likely now controlled only mainly because of financial concerns and lessons learned.

2) "Blame the Victims" There has been a lot of that, published and otherwise from rank and file RCs and from those in positions of power (remember Bishop Colin Campbell's comments blaming the victims for luring in the offending priests).

3) "Fear of the impact of the scandal on the RC Empire. There is ample evidence of the dominant (almost ruler-like) role played by RC priests -well beyond matters of the "soul" Priests played a significant role in maintaining this position, which was being eroded by education and enlightened reasoning. Admiting the scale of the problem could have a domino effect in eroding the role of the RC church in many societies.

4) "The Historic internal belief that RC priets could do no wrong". No need to explain this, beyond the concept of the order of Melchisedek."

5) "The Homosexual issue inside the RC church and entrenched theology ". Admitting the scale of the issue among those in a position of authority could have a serious impact on entrenched theology. We see haw far those at the top of the RC organization will go to defend entrenched theological positions - for example abortion, birth control and ordaining women into the priesthood (even though many RC members are increasing enlightened on many of these issues).

6) Belief that this type of behavour could be controlled,was small scale "and the priests could be fixed through prayer and intervention" in a big cumbersome, global organization.

7) You add some more if you like-I don't buy the financial theory put forward frequently by Joe Offer.


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: Ed T
Date: 22 May 12 - 09:06 PM

As to the RC Church and large compensation amounts to those abused by priests. This occured over years, while those in authority the organiztion knew it and tried to covered it up.

Good try at "twisting it around" to make the victims the villians - not those in authority. No, I submit they were not covering up to save money for the poor parishoners. They were indeed not "honest", caring, responsible nor, IMO, acting in a "Christian manner".

The legal system does not take such actions lightly and issued large judgements to send a clear message to this church and others - allow the abuse of innocent children under your authority, and you will pay dearly. Unfortunately, those in Authority (as these type folks often do) passed the costs down to others, with some of the guilt.

Punitive damages (do any of the noted misbehavours ring a bell in this situation?):

""The purposes of punitive damages are to punish the defendant for outrageous misconduct and to deter the defendant and others from similar misbehavior in the future.... The usual terms that characterize conduct justifying these damages include bad faith, fraud, malice, oppression, outrageous, violent, wanton, wicked, and reckless. These aggravating circumstances typically refer to situations in which the defendant acted intentionally, maliciously, or with utter disregard for the rights and interests of the plaintiff....

....Proponents of punitive damages believe that this type of award serves a number of important societal functions, including retribution, deterrence, compensation, and law enforcement.

Supporters of punitive damages contend that one function for such an award is to provide retribution to the victim of the defendant's reckless or wanton conduct. When a person is injured by the wanton misconduct of another, the plaintiff has the right to express her outrage by extracting a judicial fine from the wrongdoer. Seeking retribution allows the plaintiff to punish an intentional lawbreaker in much the same way as the criminal justice system punishes him.

Proponents believe that the most important function that punitive damages serve is that of deterrence. As in Criminal Law, the predominant purpose of punitive damages is to prevent similar misconduct in the future. Because the law does not catch and punish all persons who wantonly violate the rights of others, supporters argue that punitive damages help deter misconduct by publicizing, and at times sensationalizing, the punishment of those persons found guilty of egregious misconduct.""

punitive damages


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 23 May 12 - 01:23 AM

trial going on in Pennsylvania right now...same scenarios..files kept locked up with alarms..gee we had no idea it was wrong or harmful. One witness said you can't say no to Cardinal Bevilacqua..Oh..I think you can..or find some old biddy in the parish to do it for you. Or find someone who is not fond of the Catholic church.; Any number of surrogates could have been found...a paster raped a boy all through high school..

why are we , incoluding me, so complacent? Because it is boys most often but not always?


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: ollaimh
Date: 23 May 12 - 12:39 PM

i think there is a valid comparison to the "good germans" knowing noting about genocidal atrocities. most catholics "know nothing, see nothing". however the artocities are so wide spread , horrible, and on going and the continous church attacks on the justice system and the abused compells the belief that the catholicn church is corrupt to the top. especially when you consider they ignore the genocidal residential schools where tens of thousands of native children died from neglect or health care nutrition and open pyhsical attacks.

this church is beyond feform and its defenders are just as culpible as the "ghood germans" were for the nazi holocoust.

again i repeat that all the major christian denominations participated in the native schools genocide and have the same child abuse problems. some are much better at internal discipline than the catholic church. the result is here in eastern canada they are losing the flock. a lot of people who were devote and unquestioning catholics are leaving--and in droves. so they are committing suicide here.

french canada like ireland and poland used to export priests. those were the main areas for new priests. french canada has dried up, ireland is drying up, soon they will not be able to get enough priests to staff the churches. maybe they will refill the ranks from africa? maybe not. untill they have outside review with lkegally binding access to all internal documents and witnesses and out side manditory reforms after there is no good in the catholic church.

i was especially horrified by the american law suits against self help groups of the survivors of preistly sex rape. that shows no decency, no morals and no ethics. just destroy your critics by any means possible, especially if those critics are vunerable. the catholoc church has preyed on the vunerable way too long.


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 23 May 12 - 12:46 PM

Do we know how many priests themselves were abused? I am guessing a fair number. How many bishops? Why does it seem normal to them to rape a child or young teen? mg


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: ollaimh
Date: 27 May 12 - 08:06 PM

yjr problems in the catholic church are way beyond a lack of transparency. for you to think that joe is monstorous. the church issues passports for some of the most prominent war criminals in the nazi regime, it hid the leading french nazi, paul touvier, for decades after he was charged with war crimes in france. and they are major participoants in the gasnocid against nastives in north america--now legally recognized as genocide in canada.if you need proof of present charges and on going child rape send me a private e mail with you e mail address and i'll put you in contact with the survivors of the catholiv church organizations i know people in. they are mosty native so you won't believe them, but they have irish contacts.

friends of mine in the catholic church have told me this is the first generation the church has not passed on its beleifs. they have just done too many evil things and everybody knows now.

joe your denial is akin to your denial of the vancouver folk nazi helmut ruebsaat. same thinking, your pals are good so what ever they do must be good no matter wehast the evidence to the contrary. you posted norbert ruebsaats bio of his father helmut with no thought as to its subtle twists and lies. norbdrts full story can be found on his blog on geist(i think). google norbert ruebsaat and you will find it. there he says they were deutchland party and stahlhelm, not nazis, ignoring that the deutchland party was an openly jew hating, racist and fascist party. they were only distinct from the nazi party by their aristocratic leadership and their wanting the kaiser as furher or a memeber of his family. and ignoring that they joined the nazi coalition in 1932/33 and were instrumental in hitler getting his majority in the last german elected parliament and in passing the enabling legislation which put all power in hitler's hands. and then the deutchland party joined the nazi party when helmut ruebsaat was 13. sweeping away a decade! waldheimers disease--you forget what you did during the war. so whn helmut stated, as he often did that he was in the stahlhelm, the street marc\hing goons of the deutchland party, he was really saying he was in the ss wing of the sa. who cares, who knows any history? the stalhelm were rewarded for joining the nazi led coalition by being allowed to staff the early ss. hitler wanted a respectable aristocratic group to replace the ernst reohm's sa whom he soon pruged.

your deep in denial joe

in remain amazed you haven't kicked me off mudcat.

however those childen yolu listened to being abused--and did nothing--there's where you start--make atonement.

the native children , half of whom died in the church schools, you give their remains back to their tribes, that's where the castholic church starts to make atonement. the organization is so corrupt i doubt there id any hope==personally i am jst glad i was pulleed away from the curse of christianity. i was baptisized catholic but my agnostic father put a stop to grand parent meddling(they were worried about limbo)

it monstrous to be suing the support groups for their private testimony, its monstrous to withhold native childrens remains, its monstrous to criminals like stengl and bernard law sanctuary. they really need house cleaning, and thisn is a golden opportunity, with the eyes of the world to be witness!


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: eddie1
Date: 28 May 12 - 10:47 AM

As someone who is non-catholic and indeed non-religious, I am trying deparately to follow the arguments here and really failing although I do have every sympathy for the victims.

ollaimh - please can you remember that your keyboard has a "Shift" button which lets you use capitals. This alone would make your contributions a bit more comprehensible.

If you have, as appears to be the case, difficulty with spelling in the English language or perhaps only in typing it, you can type your contributions into Word or any other word processing programme, use the spellchecker then copy and paste into the Mudcat reply box.

I am trying to understand your contributions and arguments but usually give up after a few lines because they are too much work to take in.

I am not being flippant here, I just find your contributions impossible to understand although I would like to.

Eddie


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 30 May 12 - 07:03 PM

There is a petition online for the removal of Cardinal I was just a Notary Brady. I am sorry..but he is just too apparently stupid to run an organization that involves the health of children.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/246/859/640/petition-calling-for-the-resignation-of-cardinal-sean-brady/#'

Oops..can't make a click on this computer...mg


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 31 May 12 - 06:13 AM

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/246/859/640/petition-calling-for-the-resignation-of-cardinal-sean-brady/#'


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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 01 Jun 12 - 12:41 AM

http://www.mcall.com/news/nationworld/pennsylvania/mc-philly-priest-trial-closing-arguments-20120531,0,1759654.story?page=2&track=rss

When you think it can't get any creepier..a priest wrote a letter..fortunately never sent..to a 7th grade boy, fantasizing about not just oral sex, but sadistic acts. Priest was reassigned to parishes. What does it take? Sadistic acts? There is sadism and masochism running through the church, and when it gets combined with sex, which probably it almost always does...how can you keep it in a religion? mg


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