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On not knowing chords - and not helping

Jim Dixon 18 Dec 10 - 04:17 PM
GUEST,Silas 18 Dec 10 - 04:19 PM
open mike 18 Dec 10 - 04:25 PM
Don Firth 18 Dec 10 - 04:31 PM
GUEST,Silas 18 Dec 10 - 04:38 PM
Waddon Pete 18 Dec 10 - 04:43 PM
Mark Clark 18 Dec 10 - 05:00 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 18 Dec 10 - 05:04 PM
olddude 18 Dec 10 - 05:05 PM
GUEST,999 18 Dec 10 - 05:09 PM
Tangledwood 18 Dec 10 - 05:14 PM
GUEST,999 18 Dec 10 - 05:18 PM
andrew e 18 Dec 10 - 05:47 PM
open mike 18 Dec 10 - 05:51 PM
maeve 18 Dec 10 - 06:03 PM
GUEST,jeff 18 Dec 10 - 06:11 PM
GUEST,DWR 18 Dec 10 - 06:30 PM
Leadfingers 18 Dec 10 - 06:37 PM
GUEST,jeff 18 Dec 10 - 07:25 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Dec 10 - 07:36 PM
Bobert 18 Dec 10 - 07:38 PM
The Sandman 18 Dec 10 - 08:47 PM
Nick 18 Dec 10 - 09:02 PM
Artful Codger 18 Dec 10 - 09:17 PM
ollaimh 18 Dec 10 - 09:23 PM
Jeri 18 Dec 10 - 09:24 PM
The Fooles Troupe 18 Dec 10 - 10:23 PM
Beer 18 Dec 10 - 10:49 PM
Tootler 19 Dec 10 - 12:56 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 19 Dec 10 - 01:58 AM
seanfromthecape 19 Dec 10 - 02:02 AM
Janie 19 Dec 10 - 02:02 AM
Joe Offer 19 Dec 10 - 02:39 AM
Janie 19 Dec 10 - 03:14 AM
Backwoodsman 19 Dec 10 - 03:59 AM
Genie 19 Dec 10 - 04:01 AM
GUEST,FloraG 19 Dec 10 - 04:04 AM
Darowyn 19 Dec 10 - 04:38 AM
peregrina 19 Dec 10 - 04:39 AM
Will Fly 19 Dec 10 - 05:14 AM
Backwoodsman 19 Dec 10 - 05:18 AM
The Sandman 19 Dec 10 - 06:28 AM
breezy 19 Dec 10 - 07:38 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 19 Dec 10 - 08:12 AM
Richard Bridge 19 Dec 10 - 08:20 AM
The Fooles Troupe 19 Dec 10 - 08:26 AM
Tootler 19 Dec 10 - 10:08 AM
Leadfingers 19 Dec 10 - 10:27 AM
Ebbie 19 Dec 10 - 11:30 AM
GUEST,999 19 Dec 10 - 11:56 AM
Nick 19 Dec 10 - 12:06 PM
Nick 19 Dec 10 - 12:15 PM
The Sandman 19 Dec 10 - 12:26 PM
GUEST,Desi C 19 Dec 10 - 12:34 PM
GUEST,999 19 Dec 10 - 12:35 PM
Nick 19 Dec 10 - 12:38 PM
Nick 19 Dec 10 - 12:40 PM
Nick 19 Dec 10 - 12:41 PM
breezy 19 Dec 10 - 01:12 PM
GUEST,999 19 Dec 10 - 01:12 PM
Nick 19 Dec 10 - 02:04 PM
breezy 19 Dec 10 - 02:11 PM
GUEST,999 19 Dec 10 - 02:14 PM
GUEST, Poxicat 19 Dec 10 - 02:28 PM
Richard Bridge 19 Dec 10 - 04:02 PM
Joe Offer 19 Dec 10 - 04:33 PM
JHW 19 Dec 10 - 04:55 PM
Richard Bridge 19 Dec 10 - 04:57 PM
Jim Dixon 19 Dec 10 - 05:12 PM
Richard Bridge 19 Dec 10 - 06:03 PM
GUEST, Poxicat 19 Dec 10 - 10:21 PM
nickp 20 Dec 10 - 05:44 AM
GUEST,Grishka 20 Dec 10 - 06:25 AM
Tyke 20 Dec 10 - 07:14 AM
Will Fly 20 Dec 10 - 07:32 AM
TheSnail 20 Dec 10 - 08:06 AM
Richard Bridge 20 Dec 10 - 08:14 AM
The Sandman 20 Dec 10 - 08:17 AM
Bounty Hound 20 Dec 10 - 08:42 AM
The Sandman 20 Dec 10 - 08:57 AM
TheSnail 20 Dec 10 - 10:17 AM
Dave MacKenzie 20 Dec 10 - 10:29 AM
GUEST,DonMeixner 20 Dec 10 - 10:40 AM
TheSnail 20 Dec 10 - 10:40 AM
breezy 20 Dec 10 - 01:10 PM
The Sandman 20 Dec 10 - 01:39 PM
TheSnail 20 Dec 10 - 02:00 PM
Genie 20 Dec 10 - 02:09 PM
closet-folkie 21 Dec 10 - 02:22 PM
Stringsinger 21 Dec 10 - 03:10 PM
Dave MacKenzie 21 Dec 10 - 03:12 PM
Lonesome EJ 21 Dec 10 - 03:20 PM
DonMeixner 21 Dec 10 - 03:39 PM
Tim Leaning 21 Dec 10 - 04:36 PM
The Sandman 21 Dec 10 - 05:41 PM
Tootler 21 Dec 10 - 05:54 PM
Genie 21 Dec 10 - 05:56 PM
s&r 21 Dec 10 - 06:38 PM
Genie 22 Dec 10 - 12:30 AM
The Fooles Troupe 22 Dec 10 - 04:16 AM
The Fooles Troupe 22 Dec 10 - 04:39 AM
GUEST,Grishka 22 Dec 10 - 08:47 AM
GUEST,Grishka 22 Dec 10 - 09:00 AM
TheSnail 22 Dec 10 - 09:08 AM
DonMeixner 22 Dec 10 - 09:33 AM
Dave MacKenzie 22 Dec 10 - 09:44 AM
Backwoodsman 22 Dec 10 - 10:11 AM
Backwoodsman 22 Dec 10 - 10:14 AM
Backwoodsman 22 Dec 10 - 10:15 AM
GUEST 22 Dec 10 - 10:43 AM
GUEST,999 22 Dec 10 - 10:54 AM
closet-folkie 22 Dec 10 - 12:43 PM
The Sandman 22 Dec 10 - 12:48 PM
The Sandman 22 Dec 10 - 01:26 PM
TheSnail 23 Dec 10 - 12:00 PM
The Sandman 23 Dec 10 - 12:29 PM
Nick 23 Dec 10 - 12:47 PM
Richard Bridge 23 Dec 10 - 01:00 PM
The Sandman 23 Dec 10 - 01:16 PM
GUEST,999 23 Dec 10 - 02:00 PM
TheSnail 23 Dec 10 - 02:19 PM
The Fooles Troupe 23 Dec 10 - 09:40 PM
Tim Leaning 23 Dec 10 - 11:07 PM
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Subject: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 04:17 PM

I just read, on another thread, where a newcomer guest to Mudcat asked for chords for a certain song, and someone else, a longtime Mudcatter, gave a sarcastic answer, like (and here I paraphrase:) why don't you buy the CD and figure them out for yourself, you cheap, lazy bastard?

OK, I made up the part about the cheap, lazy bastard, but I felt it was implied.

May I please have some support from other Mudcatters in condemning this type of behavior?

First of all, the responder jumped to some illogical conclusions. How do we know the questioner doesn't already own the CD? (Or at least lawfully own an mp3, having paid to download it?) How do we know the questioner has the skill to figure out chords for himself?

Look, no one was born knowing how to play the guitar. Everybody had to start somewhere. Do you honestly not remember what it was like to be a beginner? Wasn't there a time when you could have used some help?

Why heap scorn on the beginner because he isn't able to figure out chords?

And if you can't say something helpful, why say anything at all?

Even if you're not willing to help, someone else may be—if it's not too late, if the questioner hasn't been driven away by your crass insensitivity.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 04:19 PM

Yes, i can only agree with all that you have said.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: open mike
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 04:25 PM

I believe most of us came to this site while searching for music, lyrics, chords, etc. and the DT brought us here. This has grown into a community of folks, most of whom are musical. I am glad it is a place
where we all can come for advice and to share our love of music. Hopefully it will continue to be a place where we all can share.

Hopefully, also, people will think twice before criticizing others, especially new comers....i second Jim's comments.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 04:31 PM

I wholeheartedly agree, Jim. That sort of behavior toward a beginner is absolutely reprehensible. Especially here on Mudcat.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 04:38 PM

Which thread was it?


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 04:43 PM

Jim.....I agree...pity some folks don't.....maybe they'll learn in time (some hope!)

Best wishes,

Peter


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Mark Clark
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 05:00 PM

Jim, thanks for that. I can understand that people reading a thread might not have time right then to answer fully but to belittle the questioner is beneath contempt. Many people who don't post here much anymore---myself included---used to spend huge amounts of time answering any questions (whether we knew the answers or not <g>) and helping with anything from chords, melody and lyrics to anecdotes and experiences. I guess we all figured we were helping to build something useful.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 05:04 PM

I support your stance, Jim. We've all been newbies at one time or another, and clueless many times over in various parts of our lives. Some people just hear pitches chord changes better than others, the same as some folks are more athletic or quicker at maths (and I speak as one who's pretty pathetic at both those latter two).

Mudcat's such a great resource - let's not drive people off it before we've even gotten to know them - or they us. The person who doesn't know the chords to some piece of music may be a treasure-trove of song words or local history.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: olddude
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 05:05 PM

There is a segment of people on this site that don't know what the word nice means. I find myself spending less and less time anymore and suspect that will continue .. My concern now checking in on Spaw ... I would not advise any guest or newcomer to ask anything lately music or otherwise. It is indeed sad


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 05:09 PM

I`m with you, Jim.

BM


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Tangledwood
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 05:14 PM

Yes Jim, you certainly have my support.
Perhaps there are one or two posters who are too lazy to work things out for themselves; there are plenty that don't have the knowledge. In either case it's not compulsory to post an answer to them if you don't feel like it but there is no excuse for an abusive response.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 05:18 PM

In fact, I will add that that type of response to people looking for chords is sickening. The guy or gal who said that has NO knowledge whether the asker owned the CD or not. There are people who have great difficulty working out relatively simple things in music. Slagging them for that is disgusting.

Also, Jim Dixon has done as much if not more work locating lyrics or melodies than darned near anyone else on this site--at least since I`ve been around the place. When he speaks in this manner, it`d be good to heed his words.

Keep BS in BS--whoever the hell you are. People ask for help when they need it.

Sorry about the rant.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: andrew e
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 05:47 PM

Haven't seen the original posting, but reading that is always a lesson for me to not be like that, even in a very small way!
So thank you whoever you are.

Maybe the person who responded had had a bad day! It happens to us all!

Some mudcat requests could easily be answered by a quick search on Google. But there again, the person asking may not know how to do that.

When I first started interneting, it took me quite a few months before I worked out what FAQ meant. It's not obvious!


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: open mike
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 05:51 PM

It is a good thing, however to suggest that we support musicians
by purchasing their recordings, buying tickets to concerts, etc.
That is a very good way to help them "put bread on the table" and
supporting music and musicians is an important priority!!


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: maeve
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 06:03 PM

Jim, I agree of course, and wish I'd seen the request. Did the person in need ever get the chord help?

Maeve


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: GUEST,jeff
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 06:11 PM

Been playing for over thirty years and STILL have trouble 'hearing' the difference between a 1 chord and relative minor when in a multi-instrument track. There are subtle 'passing tones' at times easily missed, too. And I went through the 'Mickey Baker' jazz chord book years ago! Still have it. Developing one's ear is a relentless process that takes time. Jumping down someone's throat for asking a novice question is really unacceptable.

Had the privledge of a personal relationship w/Steve Goodman, Carl Martin, Jethro Burns, etc. in Chicago years ago and to a man when I would approach them w/a musical question they would sit with me until I got it. Was playing alot of swing in those days. And they didn't make me feel like shit for my reward.

Also, I recall driving myself crazy trying to figure out 'Hear Comes The Sun' w/o a capo because some jazz player told me it was cheating. Finally I said, "Eff him" and got myself a good Jim Dunlop and have been using one ever since. Shubb for the studio and Kyser for the stage.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: GUEST,DWR
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 06:30 PM

Jim, I wish I knew the answer. It's true that some people ask the simplest questions that some of us see and think, WHY didn't they just google their question? In many cases, we know the answer is bound to be there in multiple and easily accessed sites.

But how do we know the circumstances? Is this a person new to computers - they do still exist, you know. Is English the native language of the requester - if not, this could be beyond their skills. What about that rare and elusive quest that sends even the best of us to the edges of our knowledge and even beyond. I know I have spent hours looking up information in my books and internet searches and still failed to come up with a satisfactory answer. Sometimes I hit it lucky and have the satisfaction of giving the information asked for and adding to my own knowledge at the same time.

I usually respond in one of three ways. If it is something close to my areas of interest and knowledge, then I will do what I can to help without recrimination or complaint.

If it's something I know little or nothing about (there's a lot of that going around) then I may make a feeble stab at it, then wait for someone else to come by with the correct response. I may just reassure the person that yes, someone here likely knows, and they should just give them time to find the key to what is wanted.

The third way, of course, is to realize that the question is completely beyond my abilities and interests and just let it go.

I am running short of time right now, but there is a thread that took YEARS to resolve, but is now one of the most satisfying threads that I know of. I will post it later.

At any rate, I do agree wholeheartedly with your premise. I hope all of us can take it to heart and do even a fraction of what you do.

Gotta go. No ti;me even to check my post.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Leadfingers
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 06:37 PM

I still recall how pleased with myself I felt when I actually worked out a Chord Run all by myself for the first time - Ian Tyson's 'Four Strong Winds' ESPECIALLY finding the minor !
I STILL have trouble with Diminshed and Augmented chords though


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: GUEST,jeff
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 07:25 PM

"I STILL have trouble with Diminished and Augmented chords though"

There's a book I can recommend if you'll take a look at my post. ;-) It may be out of print, though.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 07:36 PM

I never have trouble looking for Diminished or Augmented chords...
.....................
A question is an invitation to take part in a conversation. So what if the questioner could have used google instead? Anyway Mudcat answers are more likely to be interesting, and lead to finding out stuff you didn't know you wanted to know.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 07:38 PM

One insensitive post does not represent this community...

I'm sure that other folks were more than willing to help...

Reminds me of when I first came here, however, and I would start threads about this or that and some insensitive person told me repeatedly that this or that had already been discussed... Who cares if it had... The point is that new folks come in here with ideas and experiences and questions and that's always a good thing...

B~


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 08:47 PM

yes i agree, its the sort of behaviour i have encountered on www.session .org


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Nick
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 09:02 PM

If I can help I do. It costs me nothing.

And at the same it shows how incredibly smart I am

ROFLAO

Being serious,it is a little strange where someone asks for the chords for really straightforward three chord song but if it helps what the hell. It's nice when people say thank you.

And if you contribute you tend to get things back. I've got to know lots of people over the past few years through here and so it's a small thing to spend a couple of minutes helping someone out.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Artful Codger
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 09:17 PM

I have quite a few pet peeves, like people who don't search, people who post without first reading the thread they're posting to.... Among them is when people expect you to buy an entire album just to hear a single song or track, or think you can easily get hold of some obscure or out-of-print recording. Furthermore, I don't care for the way many artists perform, so once I'd gotten a tune, words and chords, I'd be unlikely to listen to most of these albums ever again. Should I have to buy some album of pretentious renditions just to hear how a public domain work (or a work those performers didn't write) goes? Particularly when I don't yet know if the song is even worth bothering with? Preposterous. Even with $1 track downloads, the expense can easily get prohibitive.

I do think that a lot of people are lazy about requesting chords: many requests I've seen are for basic three-chord songs, and those anyone should be able to figure out just through experimenting with the chords they know (and perhaps a capo). Nearly all of us are equipped with a detector that says "Yep, that's right," "Nope, but close," "Nope, that's not it" or "Whoa, that's really not it!" Exercising that faculty is the only way you learn.

If that doesn't suffice, the next recourse should be googling the net (including searching past threads here). All too often, people ask for chords when they've already been posted and a simple search would find them. If the chords aren't in the right key, all you need is a simple transposition chart--a ten-second search should turn up plenty of those. As with any endeavor, a certain level of expertise should be expected, and those without it should get private tutoring rather than expecting others to indulge them or hand-feed them from a silver plate.

I also don't believe in indulging computer newbies. Yes, everyone started at the beginning sometime, but no one is without computer-literate friends, and a person should have some minimum competence with computers, search engines and FAQ-finding before they start bothering others with their posts. Lack of preparation and sheer laziness should not be condoned, even by silent endorsement.

So I'd have to know for which song the chords were requested before weighing in on whether I think the reaction was inappropriate. Probably it was at least an overreaction, but sometimes folks deserve being told off. And sometimes you just hit someone's pet peeve, so they're lashing out not at the individual poster as much as at a galling, repetitive situation. That, too, deserves some indulgence.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: ollaimh
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 09:23 PM

i'm with you jim. some times cliques develop and try to slam the door they just came in by, right behind them.

usually the uncooperative are the less talented and knowledgeable. in circles of real players that i've known i've never sen anyone refuse to help if they have the time. if you have the time to type an insult you have the time to help instead.

unfortunately there are folie cliques who get in looking and self righteous, and sometimes get quite influential. they are usually middle class dominated and because they have jobs that allow them to attend the folk group every wednesday night and in the same twon they become fixtures. many working class people, especially in canada have to travel tp wok and get the short shift from such cliques because of the "who are you" attitude.

i value the ones that help the traveller, like for instance the victoria folk music society, in victoria bc, i have never shown up there without being asked to play and in turn i have never seen any one veing denoied help in learning, and they have some very good players who willingly take a back seat for a new commer,

i've run in to others in seattle san fransisco that are similar.and the cecil sharpe house in londo, don't ask about toronto and vancouver.

i have had people who openly attacked me on line and in violent and abuseive terms (i am a controversail truth teller) and who approacj=hed me in person without realizing who i was, and asked for harp help, bouzouki instruction, and i have always given it. and never told them i was ollaimh. what the hell.i am not book learned in music so i don't formally teach but i've happily shown hundreds of people how to do a harp arpeggio or travis pick a guitar and then said "there kid now go forth and teach others"

back in ole nova scotia i grew up with people who had little but always helped others in the music scene and i love that approach. people like jarvis benoit who used to host a halifax folk night and buddy macmaster would teach any one who asked.

i fondly recall many nights when jarvis would play back up to a brand spanking new player and make them sound great. its a real boost for the starter to be helped the first time on stage by a genuine legend.

so when asked help others if you have the time at all


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 09:24 PM

I've seen some dumb questions here, but some of them have been mine. They only seem dumb NOW because I learned the answers. Maybe I found them on my own, but maybe somebody told me or pointed me in a productive direction. Helping people figure the music out is, IMO, what Mudcat is about.

If you can help and want to, help.

If you can't help and don't want to, zip it and walk on.

Just because you don't have a dog at home to kick or the partner took out a restraining order on you doesn't give you an excuse to go after someone here.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 10:23 PM

"usually the uncooperative are the less talented and knowledgeable. in circles of real players that i've known i've never sen anyone refuse to help if they have the time."

This fits in with my pet private theory of "The B Graders"!

Those who know, do, those who think they know, try to pretend.

The B graders who fear the best can only get their jollies by pretending to be the best, the best have no fear of those with less talent or experience.


"if you have the time to type an insult you have the time to help instead."

I like this.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Beer
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 10:49 PM

Anyone who has learned an instrument remembers those first days. In my case a cheep $15.00 Sears guitar where by the strings were about 1/2 an inch from the frets. But help was available back then and it still is now because that is what musicians do. They help the next generation of potential artist to develop their talent.
That is who we are, what we are and what we do.

I'm with you Jim.
Ad.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Tootler
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 12:56 AM

Artful Codger,

I tend to agree with your "peeves" in your first paragraph but the rest of your post shows a lack of understanding - even intolerance for the newcomer.

You have clearly forgotten your early struggles with an instrument or a computer or you would not be saying what you did. You clearly do not understand the anxiety or lack of confidence of a newcomer, especially an adult newcomer to something; computers, a musical instrument or anything. Often newcomers to something have a fear of failure which makes them anxious and reluctant to try something for fear they get it wrong and nothing is more likely to put them off completely than the "Go figure it out yourself, you idle sod" type of post that Jim Dixon was quite rightly criticising. Your post suggests that underlying attitude.

My daughter once had a maths teacher who told me at a parents evening at her school "No genuine query from a child is ever trivial to them". Implicit in that statement, of course, is that we should always treat their questions seriously even if they seem trivial to us. That is an attitude I took on board in my own professional life and it is one which I think we should adopt to apparently trivial queries to Mudcat unless there is clear evidence to the contrary.

Figuring out chords to a song purely aurally is a non-trivial task and takes time and experience to learn. Newcomers need encouragement and a little help along the way by giving them chords. Maybe even they have had a go and want confirmation that what they have done is right. We don't know, so we shouldn't criticise unless we are in full possession of the facts. Because I play a melody instrument, I don't think I could figure out the chords to even a basic three chord song aurally, though I can usually make a fair attempt if I have the dots.

I know a good many computer newcomers and I know how anxious they get and it takes time to learn all the little tricks about searching. Searching on line for something is a non-trivial task in my view and it often surprisingly difficult to find exactly what you are after even if you are experienced. How often have you ploughed through all the things you mentioned and still not ended up with the information you were seeking?

I think the OP was absolutely right. More tolerance is needed, especially of newcomers. We don't want to put them off.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 01:58 AM

I first came here about ten years ago looking for how to play the introduction to leadbelly's fanin street - still can't play the bastard!


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: seanfromthecape
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 02:02 AM

Wow.

Ok so to start out, I was the person who posted asking for help. Thanks to everyone who messaged with support but I think this got blown a little out of proportion. I've been using Mudcat for a few years and it is a great place to find songs ( and chords for them ) that you just can't find on the bigger more mainstream sites. For the types of music I'm looking for Mudcat is actually usually one of the first 3 to 5 sites listed, so congrats to all of you for amassing a really great resource here! And as one person pointed out one bad post does not a website make!

Ok,so..Just to clear some things out.

To "breezy". I do own the CD, Stan Rogers, "From Coffee House to Concert Halls". Its an absolutely fantastic Album that I suggest to everybody. Its my favorite of his Albums and the song I was hoping to learn to play ( for this Christmas) is "At Last I'm Ready For Christmas " Track 15, one of my favorite Christmas songs. I also own Stans other albums as well as his song book and have my weekend booked off for Stan Fest in Canso, Nova Scotia this summer. Thanks for your concern about supporting the Estate of the late Stan Rogers, I'm sure his family and friends are appreciative that you apparently traveled from the UK to Kingston On, to buy the Album. If you had perhaps purchased a map beforehand you could have saved some travel time and stopped in Cape Breton or NFLD.

To "Artful Codger" - I did try google. If anyone else has found it anywhere on the internet please lmk. I'm not new to computers or searching and usually consider myself pretty adept @ data mining but sometimes its just doesn't work. Also I'm sorry if I offended your sensibilities by asking for chords to an apparently three chord song. There's a lot going on in there between the melody being picked on one guitar as well as the fiddle, with vocals on top of all.

To Maeve - No I haven't had anyone yet post any help haha, but thanks for asking!

As I already answered in the actual thread, I'm afriad that I am absolutely terrible at learning to play by ear and the cross I have to bear from that is either finding the tabs or music for the song or...sigh.....constantly asking the people I'm playing with, "wait what was that?"

Whew. Well that was all seriously unexpected, I don't think I've ever posted to any site and gotten quite so many resposnses about anything so cudos to you folks for speaking up. While my skin is a little thick to be disuaded something like that I know that some people could be and thats terrible.

PS - Sorry for the book length response!


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Janie
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 02:02 AM

Asking questions here is also a way of entering into the Mudcat music community, even if the answer to the question is available elsewhere.

Research, whether on-line or in a library is a skill at which some are better than others, or which is easier for a person already knowledgeable who is familiar with the kinds of search terms or websites where the answer might be found through a search engine inquiry. As long as I have been on Mudcat, I can find it very difficult to find what I am looking for, even when I know it is here.

A significant number of the top "hits" on Google when one searches for lyrics, chords or tabs are junk sites that promise much but rarely deliver, overwhelm with You are the 100,000th visitor, click here to win your prize or Download ringtones, then don't have what you are looking for. Many of these sites also set off security warnings. It takes time and experience to learn which sites to avoid as potentially malicious or as likely unproductive.

All that aside, why take the opportunity to belittle some one just because you can?


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 02:39 AM

I think that most often the "why don't you just buy the CD" posts are anonymous. If it's an anonymous post and it's nasty, I delete it without a moment's hesitation.

It's true that some posts seem to be trying to take advantage of us, like the ones that ask for any and all chords from certain performers. I just ignore requests like that. Other posts ask for transcriptions of songs, without the poster having done any work on the transcription himself (or failing to post what he's come up with so far). In situations like that, I ask the requester to post what he's got so far, and then build on it.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Janie
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 03:14 AM

Not responding is not rude. Responding as you might in your second instance is not rude, nor is it dismissive.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 03:59 AM

**Most** songs use the 1,4 &,5 chords, some bring in the 6m. I never understand why anyone needs to ask for the chords for those songs - they should be obvious and intuitive for anyone who has played for more than a couple of weeks.

Far less use other chords that need a bit of thinking about and playing around with.For the more **complicated** stuff I can understand why, for ease and speed, someone might ask for the chords.

I get all of my stuff from legally-obtained CDs and downloads, and I work them out without reference to sheet music and without asking others how to play them - it's a frustrating pastime occasionally, but there's great satisfaction in miraculously landing on that PITA chord that's been avoiding you for days. :-)

I do confess to 'chord-spotting' while watching others play, however! :-)

The member whose post on another thread started this debate, BTW, is a nice guy, and an excellent guitarist and singer. He doesn't have six fingers on each hand, nor a third nipple, and he isn't the spawn of the devil. I guess he just sees things differently to most of the rest. Personally, I don't see that as a reason for universal castigation, but that's just me.

IMHO. YMMV and, if so, that doesn't cause me any 'offence'. :-) :-)


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Genie
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 04:01 AM

Open Mike, I agree it's best to support other musicians by buying their CDs, but many of us can just not afford to buy a couple hundred CDs just because we want to learn that many songs, and not all single song recordings are available for purchase on iTunes.

As for figuring out chords, it is a skill worth developing, but it does take time for most of us, and looking up chords or lyrics on the net often yields a lot of variations (some of which are just plain wrong). I think a Mudcat thread can be ideal because the people who choose to volunteer their knowledge & expertise can - and will - debate such things where there are variations to be debated.   And, yes, it can be a great community experience.

Also, many artists (Joni Mitchell comes to mind) use open tunings or non-standard tunings such as DADGAD, and that can make it hard for a listener to 'hear' chords the way they would with someone using a standard EADGBE guitar tuning.    And, yes, there are tabs and passing chords and other riffs that aren't so easily designated by the chord names most of us know.

I'll just say that I find it instructive and interesting to see what varieties of chord patterns different people may use for the same basic melody, and I often end up modifying those too, because I want to use a different harmony, etc.

Nothing wrong with refraining from getting involved in a thread if you don't feel like being bothered, but I'm glad so many folkies really are willing to share their knowledge and skill.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 04:04 AM

I started looking on this site after I was idley browsing for Photos of Faversham festival and found some nasty name calling that no one else seemed to object to. I'm so pleased that others have now picked up on some unnecessary comments.

Gina la Faux heard me play when I was still very much a beginner and said
'music is a celebration not a competition'. I've often thought of these words since. Than you Gina.
FloraG


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Darowyn
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 04:38 AM

One of the problems with being able to recognise chords from a CD by ear is that very few people, especially those who can do it easily, know how they do it.
They just can.
Actually maths teachers have a similar problem they 'simplify' a complex function in a way that completely baffles a pupil, because "they just can".
That can cause someone to be unsympathetic, because if it seems obvious, the person who struggles could be seen as deliberately obtuse or lazy.
I always found that the things I taught best were the things that I had had to struggle with, because I knew which aspects of the problem caused the difficulties.
As far as identifying chords go, there was a time when I could not do it. Now I can, often in real time,able to play along with a tune I've never heard before.
Don't ask me to teach anyone else though, because I don't know how or why I can do it!
But if you have that ability, do remember to be patient with those without the 'gift' or experience, or whatever it is!
Cheers
Dave


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: peregrina
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 04:39 AM

Backwoodsman, I think you are making a big assumption about musical ability. Not everyone can understand music theory or be sure of recognizing when the chords are right.

   Many of the old songs survive only because people who were unrecorded played them and taught them to each other across a few centuries, maybe just for the joy of it, maybe for a bottle of something, or for a meal.

So now that process is supposed to stop. Learning should take place only via purchased recordings?!

Sure it's right to support those who make the CDs,--of course. but--pass on the tradition only via purchase of CDs?! No thanks.

    Music and other arts are always a gift that transcends their commercial value. That does not mean they should be free, but that they should not be REDUCED to being done, exchanged and transmitted only via market forces.
    If you say people should only get the chords by buying them on a CD , or that trying to learn without doing so is trying to avoid buying the CD, you are commodifying the tradition in a way that will ultimately undermine it.


   The kindness of people who have helped me get chords is something I will always be grateful for. Without it, I would be restricted to song books.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 05:14 AM

**Most** songs use the 1,4 &,5 chords, some bring in the 6m. I never understand why anyone needs to ask for the chords for those songs - they should be obvious and intuitive for anyone who has played for more than a couple of weeks.

Oh really? Not in my humble experience as a teacher and as a professional musician. I started playing guitar from scratch, aged 20 and, I can assure you, it took me quite some time before chord sequences became intuitive. I've also known players of many years standing who don't have an ear for chord changes and who need music or tablature or a written chord sequence to help them find their way through a tune. It's far more common than you think. It took me weeks to learn to play a D chord - and I was playing, as a beginner, so much that my fingers bled. (All this was 45 years ago).

There's another thing that's worth noting. It's not always the simplest tune that is the easiest to fathom out. I played jazz for some years and my ears can detect the possible changes on something like "A Nightingale Sang in Berkeley Square" without too much bother. But when I started playing folk tunes in sessions I had to listen and watch really carefully because they all sounded the same! In other words, there was so much similarity between many of the tunes that there was a great danger of losing what were quite interesting - and slightly unpredictable - chord sequences. Do you drop down from D to C in a particular jig - or is D to Em a nicer change? Is it more appropriate to put a relative minor at such-and-such a point in the tune than the major? Is there an implied bass line in a tune which subtlely affects the chords?

So it's not always obvious - even to experienced people.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 05:18 AM

"So now that process is supposed to stop. Learning should take place only via purchased recordings?!"

"If you say people should only get the chords by buying them on a CD , or that trying to learn without doing so is trying to avoid buying the CD, you are commodifying the tradition in a way that will ultimately undermine it. "

Who's making assumptions now, Peregrina? I didn't say any of that at all! I said (if you would care to read and comprehend what I did say) that I do it that way, and I acknowledged that I study what others are doing when I watch them play, to learn and get new ideas.

My point was that, at some point, a musician should be able to work out simple chord structures simply by the 1,4,5,6m formula, with the occasional use of other chords - it's just practice.

And my other point was that someone shouldn't be demonised for holding a view which differs from that of others - and that's what's been going on on this thread.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 06:28 AM

people who refuse to give help,piss me off big time, there are a couple of idiots like that on www.session.org, people who, when someone is asking asked about advice on for example how to play the bodhran, reply with, bodhrans are not necessary in irish music.
or when someone asks for the chords of a tune, reply.... work it out for yourself by ear... people like that, really get up my nose.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: breezy
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 07:38 AM

ear , ear.

Its the 'Takers ' that probably get my goat.

I usually try to help if I can and have the time to do so.

I was impressed by Joe's succinct comments.

I like to go from the student's 'known to the unknown' when teaching.

Sometimes I make incorrect assumptions but if facts and information are not avialable and I have nothing to go on then an asumption rightly or wrongly will probably be made.

It would help if requesters for help would help themselves by declaring at from what point help is needed.

And we still got 6 days to go


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 08:12 AM

In essence I agree with Jim but whilst also taking on board that the vast amount of folks here are actually helpful above and below the line ;-)

I have certainly been given help here with some requests and appreciated it too. If I can help others I will. If I cannot then it is not worth me making commentary on it.

Away from Mudcat friends in clubs often give me credit for far more musical ability than I actually have. They think I know what 3:4 time is and that this chord transposes to that chord with the capo here and there. They think I understand music because of some of the stuff I sing. In fact I hardly know anything about timings and chords. Most of what I know I have self learned BUT an amount has been handed over to me and shown with patience by people who wanted to help or cared about what I was doing. Mostly this has only been in the past couple of years. I have been very grateful. The wonderful thing has been that much that has been handed over to me are from the singer/songwriters themselves or the performer of a given song. They never seem stingy with their help. The likes of Tom Bliss, Dave Gibb, Mark Dowding, George Papavgaris, Derek Gifford, Nathan Rogers, Heather Dale, Anthony John Clarke, have all given me assistance at some time or other. There are more too and the list is not complete. One songwriter I know, who is not well known but should be, gives me loads of little tips if he sees me struggling.

Some three chord songs are still not easy to work out. One always finds something when trying new songs and eventually hit a brick wall.

I am minded to think of Glen Cambell's Try a Little Kindness ...

Do unto others...

mp


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 08:20 AM

Quite a lot of things that sound simple at a first hearing are very hard to get by ear. One example would "Hole in the ground" and another "Right said Fred". Both performed by Bernard Cribbins if my memory serves me.


Almost anything by Tom Robinson is also likely to be tricky, and again they sound simple at a first listen.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 08:26 AM

"But when I started playing folk tunes in sessions I had to listen and watch really carefully because they all sounded the same!"

My running joke with Stan Arthur was that 'there are only about 7 Folk Tunes" ... he laughed and agreed... :-)


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Tootler
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 10:08 AM

The 1, 4 & 5 chord structure only really applies to tunes in a major mode and to the relative minor, providing you use the sharpened 7th degree of the harmonic minor scale to change 5 chord from minor to major. Even then people often like to use chords based on other degrees of the scale to provide variety or to "spice up" the accompaniment.

Many traditional tunes are modal, most commonly dorian or myxolydian. In such cases the 1,4,5 structure does not really apply and you have to be looking for other chords to harmonise such tunes. That is certainly not something you can realistically expect a relative beginner to know about or how to go about harmonising such tunes.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 10:27 AM

Whicxh Hypocrite posted this ?

I do , I got them by listening to his recording.

Why not buy the CD, for Christmas, and for Stan

I travelled to Kingston Ontario to get mine, and thats a few miles from St Albans U K !

Been singing it for a over 10 years now, do it every day leading up to the 25th , just have to do some mental arithmatic each day

And we still have eight days to go


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 11:30 AM

It's six days, Terry. :)


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 11:56 AM

Last Boxing Day the wife went out the "White Sales" for to see,
In trunk-load lots bought half-price paper and tinsel for the tree.
I packed it up for use this year in a box I marked so plain.
That stuff would sure be handy now, but it's never been seen again!

Chorus:
At last I'm ready for Christmas, I've even finished the tree,
At last I'm ready for Christmas, like I thought I'd never be!
With my feet propped up by a good hot fire and a matching inside glow;
At last I'm ready for Christmas, with nearly two hours to go!



Any of you folks who could put the chords to the lyrics--well, it would help the fellow from Cape Breton. I am using a machine that has no sound, so even finding an mp3 would be of no help to me.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Nick
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 12:06 PM

mauvepink

Try a Little kindness isn't a three chord song

But being true to myself here are the chords (whether they exist eleswhere or not) as I hear them having heard that song for the first time 5 mins ago.

Intro

E D A repeated and fills in between

Verse

E A E B A E x 2

Chorus

B A E A E B
A E C#m A B A B E

Five chord song

I'm lucky that I can hear changes and can work out easy chords to songs.

Now my son has ears which are a hundred times better. He spots voicings of chords and all sorts of subtleties that my (quite good) ears miss. If I ever struggle I ask him and he just goes "it's a G with an A bass moving to a Bbm with a flat 13th" and he looks at me with surprise that I didn't know or hear that


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Nick
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 12:15 PM

Richard

Right Said Fred is hard for folkies because it has a diminished chord in it which I think is unknown or unused or deprecated or something? Not surprisingly unknown things are...


...unknown


If the sound is in your head then it's obvious. Without that palette it's hard to find.



If I remember it's the bit before "charlie and me had another cup of tea..."


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 12:26 PM

diminshed chords occur in american folk music... deep river blues, by doc watson is one example


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 12:34 PM

That kind of attitude says everything abount the orogant git who made it. I hit much the same kind of ignorant attitude when i took up the guitar, sadly mostly from the more accomplished players who gave me the impression, that only they should be allowed to perform. I always make a point now of offering help to any beginner who seeks it, politeness costs nothing


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 12:35 PM

Same here, Desi.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Nick
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 12:38 PM

*sigh*

Dick - your deep wit and sense of irony sometimes means you don't see it in others. (Or perhaps you do and we can circle round this forever to see who is being most ironic - [he said with a wicked glint in his false eye])

*deeper sigh*

As you know much better than me I'm sure - the sound of a diminished chord is **SO** distinctive that you couldn't miss it unless you didn't know what it was. A bit like an augmented chord. Or a chord with a different bass root.

It's nice if you have the ability to hear chord progressions but it is no greater skill than knowing what beer you're drinking, or which tea or what sort of bird flew past a second ago or who piajted a picture or recognising a prose style or spotting a singer in a second or recognising a fiddle player in a split second or anything that one finds easy and others don't.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Nick
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 12:40 PM

or whether you can type piajted rather than painted.

It has a subtlety different meaning of course

finte htoa nuske


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Nick
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 12:41 PM

If I'm a deeply arrogant git well there you go.

Do you want the chords for the Stan Rogers song?


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: breezy
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 01:12 PM

OK here goes


Last Bo Em xing Day the wi D fe went out
the "White Sales" for to see,
In tr G unk-load lots
bought ha D lf-price paper and ti Em nsel for the tr A7 ee.
I pa Em cked it up for u D se this year
in a box I marked so plain.
That st G uff would sure be ha D ndy now,
but it's never been se A7en aga D in


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 01:12 PM

Last Boxing Day the wife went out the "White Sales" for to see,
In trunk-load lots bought half-price paper and tinsel for the tree.
That would help the fellow in Cape Breton, Nick. Thank you.

Last Boxing Day the wife went out the "White Sales" for to see,
In trunk-load lots bought half-price paper and tinsel for the tree.
I packed it up for use this year in a box I marked so plain.
That stuff would sure be handy now, but it's never been seen again!

Chorus:
At last I'm ready for Christmas, I've even finished the tree,
At last I'm ready for Christmas, like I thought I'd never be!
With my feet propped up by a good hot fire and a matching inside glow;
At last I'm ready for Christmas, with nearly two hours to go!


Was this song written by Stan or his Brother, Garnet.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Nick
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 02:04 PM

Breezy's done it for you

First album I ever sat down and worked out all the chords for when it came out (no Mudcat and internet in those days) was Songs of Leonard Cohen which is 196something. Good discipline. It trains your ears. Mine are reasonable but not great.

The knack of accompanying on the fly to tunes you don't know is an interesting thing which is probably not relevant to this thread. It's something I can do a bit but realise is not an absolute (is there one harmony for a single line tune apart from in the composers mind? If the composer writes it as a single line tune is the harmony implied or the harmony that you assume? etc etc) because you can mess around with harmony enormously.

Occasionally you get told off and told it's not RIGHT. Occasionally people smile and say never done it like that before.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: breezy
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 02:11 PM

see other thread

just been listening to the source

now putting in a Bm on 'wife' coming onto D on 'out'


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 02:14 PM

Could someone join the threads.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: GUEST, Poxicat
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 02:28 PM

As an occasional commentator here I should point out that eavesdroppers are reputed seldom to hear anything good of themselves and that passive-aggressive behaviour can be more disruptive than an occasional outburst, particularly when the passive-aggressive behaviour has been accompanied by 20 years worth of sniding including at the dead but respected.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 04:02 PM

I notice some extreme moderation on this thread.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 04:33 PM

Yes, it's rather refreshing that people have used such generosity and moderation in their messages in this thread. We only had to delete one message, from a Mudcat regular who decided to post under a pseudonym.

When I was learning guitar, I found it very helpful to have the chords for songs written out over the lyrics, so I could get down the chord patterns and learn where to put the chord changes. I am terminally clumsy, and never could move my fingers fast enough to make chord changes on the beat, so I finally gave it up. I got the hang of it, though - I led a song session at our county mental health department, and many of the clients wanted to play guitar. I'd sing the chords to them, and they'd play what I sang. Then I started playing chords on my harmonicas - that was much easier for me, and people seem to like it. I play harmonica chords "by ear," and it works quite well. It helps if I know what key people are playing in, but I can tell that by looking at their guitars.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: JHW
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 04:55 PM

Unless your outlook is to be a tribute band I cannot understand why anyone would want to know precisely what chords (or tuning) another artist uses. Whilst I would agree with trying to help anyone who asks (and many folks have helped me on Mudcat) I would absolutely commend thoroughly learning the melody then experimenting with chords and capo and any tuning variants you are familiar with.
Always make your performance of the song your own.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 04:57 PM

Well Joe, you should beware of the fly-by trolls.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 05:12 PM

Thanks to everyone for your comments. I'm glad to see that most Mudcatters agree that "why don't you buy the CD and figure the chords out for yourself" is an inappropriate response. Now, whenever I see that kind of comment in the future, I will refer the offender to this thread. That will save me a lot of emotional turmoil, since I really hate having to confront people who have offended me.

I deliberately did not give the name of the original thread, or the song, or the questioner, or the person who gave the response that I meant to criticize. I wish it had been left that way. I omitted those details for a reason. I very much want to avoid having this thread—or any thread—turn into one of those arguments with escalating personal attacks.

I have a few more comments:

One idea I see floating around here is some people are lazy and don't deserve help. Well, maybe so, but I don't see how you can make that judgment in a particular case without knowing the person. It isn't enough just to know the song. If you merely suspect that a particular person whom you don't know is merely lazy, that had better be a tentative opinion, and as a tentative opinion, I think you ought to keep it to yourself. If you don't feel like helping, fine—no one is compelling you to provide help. You can always ignore the request—no one should take offense at that. If you don't feel like helping, stand aside, and let someone else do it.

Another idea I see here: It never hurts to remind people that they ought to buy CDs and support musicians. Yes, it can hurt. It depends on the context. It's one thing to broadcast the general idea that people ought to support musicians. It is quite another thing to address that comment to a particular person at a particular time. If I were to tell you, Open Mike, why don't you buy a CD and support a musician, you might well be offended. You might think who the hell does this guy think he is, to make such a judgment of me? How the hell would he know how hard I already work to support musicians, or how many CDs I buy? Or you might have any number of other reasons to feel offended or hurt. My point is, you've got to know the person.

And consider what seems to be implied by the suggestion. I ask for chords and you tell me to buy the CD. You seem to be implying if only you had the CD, it would be perfectly obvious what the chords are. But I already have the CD, and it's not obvious to me. What does that say about me? You seem to be saying I'm incredibly stupid, unfit to be a musician, since what ought to be obvious isn't obvious to me.

Darowyn: I particularly enjoyed your comments about not knowing how I know.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 06:03 PM

Social ineptitude can damage many relationships and organisations.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: GUEST, Poxicat
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 10:21 PM

There are people who predominantly visit sites like this one to stir up trouble. Not the OP, and not only the self-important who imply their own superiority by the described rudeness of response to those like the OP, but also those who predominantly attend in order to bewail imagined slights.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: nickp
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 05:44 AM

I've been playing guitar for over 40 years and STILL have trouble working out the chords!


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 06:25 AM

Jim Dixon (19 Dec 10 - 05:12 PM), often it is quite obvious that a request doesn't deserve an answer, even if we don't know the poster from Adam. I remember a thread whose last (!) post translates from Italian as "I need the LYRICS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - -

Chord requests are more likely to be successful if they give details of the planned usage, besides being polite and appreciative. Lyrics are usually copied from somewhere, whereas chords often require a musician to extract them ad-hoc, which is real work.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Tyke
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 07:14 AM

The Golden Rule is never critisize anyone or put them down! It will come back and bit them. Over 30 years ago when I had just learned to play I was told by somone that my Guitar was a quarter of a semi tone out. Thirty years later I bumpt into him again and publicly reminded him of this. After I had played his coment was bloody hell you can play better than me now! Don't let them grind you down we all know plenty of people who can play the Guitar very well but they can't play in public.

PS. Can anyone tell me what a quarter of a semi tone is or where I can by a CD with a recording of one.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 07:32 AM

PS. Can anyone tell me what a quarter of a semi tone is or where I can by a CD with a recording of one.

Nah - it's all gone metric. You can probably buy 200kg of a semitone but I don't think you'll find one on a CD of Western music... :-)


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 08:06 AM

Quarter of a semi tone? 'Cos you're a gent and I'm in a generous mood that'll be 25 cents.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 08:14 AM

Very witty Snail - and I think correct too!


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 08:17 AM

a tone equals 100 cents, a quarter of a semi tone, is a quarter of 25 cents, so it is 6 .25. unless they do it differently in sussex


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 08:42 AM

I always thought that the purpose of forums such as this was the furtherance of a cause, (which I assume all members have an interest in) and to provide help and valid opinions (whether for or against) on topics of interest to the members.

I fail to understand why some people feel the need to rude and offensive on such forums. Having only been a member for a few months I found myself the innocent victim of such offensive behaviour when I posted a thread asking for information about a particular song. A few days later (on my next visit to Mudcat) I found myself being berated for not having said thank you to someone who had posted a helpful reply. I did point out that in the intervening few days, I had done two gigs, had a day in the studio, and other things like work and family get in the way, however, I received no apology for the unkind words.

If you have nothing constructive or helpful to say, why say anything? We all have differing skills and abilities and if we can help each other, or share knowledge, then why not just do it without resorting to being offensive if someone has a different opinion or different skills to yourself.

Fortunately I know there are a majority of Catters who have a similar view to me, and the vast knowledge and resources here make it well worth belonging.

Play nicely children, it's much more fun if you do!

John


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 08:57 AM

If you have nothing constructive or helpful to say, why say anything? We all have differing skills and abilities and if we can help each other, or share knowledge, then why not just do it without resorting to being offensive if someone has a different opinion or different skills to yourself.
   well said,I would like to pass on those words to Llig Leahcim over on www.session.org


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 10:17 AM

Frome Dolmetsch

Alexander J. Ellis' system for measurement of musical intervals, in which the equal-tempered semitone equals 100 cents, the whole tone 200 cents, the octave 1200 cents, and so on.

and even then your arithmetic is wrong, Dick. Pay attention at the back.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 10:29 AM

A quarter of a semi-tone? You can have a third or a half depending on whether the semi-tone's major or minor.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 10:40 AM

I will always try and supply lyrics, chords, history, help to anyone who asks. I ask often enough myself.

Don


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 10:40 AM

depending on whether the semi-tone's major or minor

Eh?


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: breezy
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 01:10 PM

I believe that if one wants to play a song written by others then it is good manners to buy their CD so that you have an accurate source to refer to.

All too often we can reproduce a song but it will contain glaring inaccuracies in either melody or lyric from the original . These will detract from ones interpretation and will be noticed by the more knowledgeable and its no use claiming that you have put your own stamp on it.

Note how the Furys changed Eric Bogle's songs. he forgives them because of the royalties but was not impressed by their interpretations as a host of others have used the inaccurate versions from which to learn. Thank goodness for June Tabor is what I say

When I heard 'Swallows Wing ' performed by the author at a session in the ringers one May week end, I asked if he would mind if I learned it. he said 'Go ahead'
I then asked if I could have the words. He said 'Yes, buy the CD'. So I gave him and tenner and held me hand out. He said he'ld post it to me.

Well eventually I got me copy.

He was most impressed with the way I did it . [He being Tony Truscott]

He deserved the price of the CD for that one song alone because it was and still is worth it.

So buy a CD even if its for only one song you wish to learn , learn it from source then you are more likely to be more accurate.

Or you could be a 'Taker'

Its the modern way to collect songs, after all when folk song collectors were collecting 'In the field' not all songs were wheat, I'm sure there was some of chaff.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 01:39 PM

who says we were talking about an equal tempered semitone.
I have met some very bad tempered semitones, most often when they are played together, to quote jones in dads army they dont like it , they dont like it up em at all


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 02:00 PM

Good Soldier Schweik

who says we were talking about an equal tempered semitone.

I don't know. It wasn't me. But, if a tone had 100 cents in it(which it doesn't), a semitone would have 50 cents in it not 25.

I still haven't got a clue what Dave MacKenzie was talking about.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Genie
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 02:09 PM

Well said, Peregrina - and Darowyn.

Let's also keep in mind that we often hear a song once or twice -- on radio or in a live setting -- and are interested in learning the song before we even know its origins or who recorded it on what CD. We don't have a recording to listen to till we figure out the chords. (Plus, I think a lot of musicians, including may folkies, use modified chords and/or quite a few more than the simple 1 -4 - 5.)   In fact, unless we have the basic chords to keep us on track, if we try to play or sing the melody we just heard, it's likely to morph into other tunes that we're more familiar with. This happens a lot with the folk process.

If you can get hold of the lyrics and the chords to a song, your own performance of it is more likely to stay true to the 'original' -- at least as true as you would like it to be.   And, as I said, finding a commercial recording of or sheet music to the song you just heard can be difficult and time-consuming -- even if you happen to be affluent enough to buy a $15 CD for every song you want to learn.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: closet-folkie
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 02:22 PM

**Most** songs use the 1,4 &,5 chords, some bring in the 6m. I never understand why anyone needs to ask for the chords for those songs - they should be obvious and intuitive for anyone who has played for more than a couple of weeks.

I'm not afraid to admit that I've absolutely no idea what 1,4 & 5 chords are, and I've been playing for considerably longer than 2 weeks. Remind me never to ask you.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 03:10 PM

One of the problems, Jim, is that musicians often do not agree as to which chord is appropriate for a song. Sometimes the composer/author doesn't even get it right.
Suggestions can be made that are helpful however and it's left to the discretion of the performer to select them.

Two things: music theory is not rocket science and there is always more than one possibility for a chord.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 03:12 PM

"Major and minor semitones refer to small intervals within the whole tone in nonequal tuning systems. In Equal Temperament, G# and Ab, for example, are the same notew, so the distance from G to G# is the same sa the distance from G to Ab, and G# to A, and Ab to A, and so on. In other systems, however, G# and Ab are different pitches, so the distance from G (and from A) to each of these intermediate notes is larger or smaller, depending on the way the tuning system is constructed. ......... The larger intervals in these cases ...... would be major semitones and the smaller ones, minor semitones."

Ross W Duffin, 'How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (and Why You Should Care)'


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 03:20 PM

Another point: If you do figure out the chord structure to a particularly tricky tune, please post the result of your work with lyrics and an appropriate thread title. I have done numerous searches on the Forum and saved a huge amount of time by utilizing someone else's research.
Also, you may have an approximation of the song structure, but you realize it ain't quite right. Post it, and I guarantee someone will give you the proper fix in no time at all.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: DonMeixner
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 03:39 PM

Hey CLoset

Key of    C Dm Em F G7 Am B C
          G Am Bm C D7 Em F G

          1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8(octave)

There are those who will say this is over simplification and some will say its wrong. But it should help to ex plain what a 1, 4, 5, is


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 04:36 PM

Read the first post.
I have always received help advice and guidance to be freely given on the cat when I asked for it.
Probably from some of the contributors to this thread.
Its not surprising that sometimes you get a snippy reply or unhelpful comment. Mudcat isn't a "thing" its just people.
I love you all.
I hope u know that . ;-) x


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 05:41 PM

Snail, chords... do not have to be in equal temperament, I hope you understand Daves comment, now.
so a quarter of a semitone could vary


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Tootler
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 05:54 PM

If I write a tune, I will sometimes supply chords and sometimes not. If I don't well others are free to put in what chords they think are appropriate. If I do supply chords, my attitude is that they are suggestions and others are free to use different chords. Quite often I write a harmony part as well and that will imply chords, so I will put them in. Even so if others want to use different chords, that's fine by me.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Genie
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 05:56 PM

A tune doesn't have chords unless harmony is involved, and different harmonies involve/constitute different chords.    It can be frustrating to have a preferred harmony for a song and not be able to use it because the lead instrumentalist is using chords that don't work with it. (The arrangement of "Amazing Grace" that's in the UU hymnal comes to mind for me.)   If you ask "What are the chords for" a particular song and you get several different opinions, you can play around with them and see which ones work with the instrumental riffs and harmonies you prefer.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: s&r
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 06:38 PM

Works both ways really - if you add harmonies you imply or play some chords; if you add chords you imply or play harmonies.

Stu


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Genie
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 12:30 AM

Exactly. The composer can designate the harmonies via specifying chords and people who choose to different arrangements can modify the chord sequence.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 04:16 AM

"chords... do not have to be in equal temperament,"

But if you are playing with any instrument in the mix that is pretuned to equal temperament, you will get a horrible noise!

Purely vocal, or instruments like a violin, which does not have pre-tuned (built like a guitar) fixed relative pitches will work - as can a skillful player in allegedly 'fixed' instruments that be 'blown to pitch', such as some wind instruments, etc


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 04:39 AM

"depending on whether the semi-tone's major or minor"

Sorting the wheat from the chaff...

Firstly there are a lot of music 'in-jokes' in this thread, which you will completely miss unless you have quite a lot of Music Theory AND Music History (which is really necessary to understand Music Theory properly...) ... :-) I get the jokes...

"whether the semi-tone's major or minor" (which COULD be a weak pun...)

It seems that most requests 'for chords' here are for Western European Music Tunes for guitarists! If you are playing a modern commercially made standard guitar (made in the last hundred years or so), this is absolute nonsense - you will only have a preset pretuned equal tempered instrument! So it matters not whether 'major or minor' - on such an instrument, they ARE identical! That what 'equal temperament' means....


Truly, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing - it will not only lead you astray, but then you will lead others astray! :-)

:-P


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 08:47 AM

Foolestroupe, starting with Tyke's post of 20 Dec 10 - 07:14 AM, the whole discussion drifted away from chords into the customary joking (could be funnier though). I could mention that many guitarists tune their instrument in pure fourths, using overtone harmonics; then their G and B form a Pythagorean third. Of course, this topic has (almost) nothing to do with chord symbols.

Back to the main topic, I would like to repeat what I wrote elsewhere about a chord request likely to be successful, without love's labour lost. It should include the following information:
  • Song title with disambiguation

  • Link to the tune (MIDI, audio, video, abc)

  • (Link to the) lyrics

  • Desired key, alternatively the voice ambitus of the designated singer

  • Instrument to be used, tuning specification

  • Player's proficiency (barre chords etc.)

  • Player's diligence / motivation

  • If an audio is provided, how important is faithfulness?

  • Otherwise: How sophisticated / simple?

  • Proficiency of reading advanced chord symbols

  • Planned type of performance

  • Please.

I suggest such a list to be part of the Mudcat rules, to be referred to whenever someone writes "I need the chords of Beethoven's symphony!!!!!"


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 09:00 AM

Bearing in mind Foolestroupe's warning, I must add that using "Pythagorean tuning" to strings of a fretted instrument is a mistake, since the frets will be "tempered" anyway. Good guitarists will estimate a corrective, or use an electronig tuning tool to achieve equal temperament.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: TheSnail
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 09:08 AM

I must apologise. In my quote from Dolmetsch, it does say "the equal-tempered semitone equals 100 cents" so my little attempt at levity does only work for equal-tempered scales. On the other hand, it was inspired by Tyke's story about playing a guitar which as Foolestroupe points out, is constrained by its frets so perhaps I was justified. Also note that Tyke wasn't accused of playing the wrong sized intervals, he was told he was playing out of tune. Out of tune is infinitely variable. We may never know what size of semitone his critic had in mind.

Dave MacKenzie

Major and minor semitones refer to small intervals within the whole tone in nonequal tuning systems.

Thanks Dave. I am well aware that semitones come in all sorts of sizes (see here for instance) but I had never heard the terms major and minor used in that context. A little research suggests that greater and lesser are preferred to avoid confusion with major and minor seconds, thirds etc which have a slightly different meaning. I'm still a bit confused by your "You can have a third or a half depending on whether the semi-tone's major or minor."

Good Soldier Schweik

Snail, chords... do not have to be in equal temperament

Yes, Dick, I know. I have had some fun with this software which lets you build chords by specifying the frequencies of the notes. The difference between equal temperament and just intonation is very striking.

a quarter of a semitone could vary

Indeed it could but it will never be 6.25 cents either in Sussex or Ireland.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: DonMeixner
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 09:33 AM

When someone asks for Chords/Lyrics I will supply what I know in the key I plat it in. They will already know the title as they understand it to be because they asked for it.

Don


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 09:44 AM

Hi Snail.

I can't find the definition of the tuning system I was thinking of at the time - the only one I've got to hand is the nine-comma system used by Leopold Mozart, so I suppose it should be a quarter or a fifth of a semitone.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 10:11 AM

Closet - examples below:-

Key of Cmaj
1 = C
4 = F
5 = G
6m = Am

Key of Gmaj
1 = G
4 = C
5 = D
6m = Em

Feel free to ask any time you like.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 10:14 AM

It's a common method, amongst musicians, of indication the chords to a number quickly and easily - "Key of C, chords 1,4,5 and 6m" for instance, and everyone knows what's required.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 10:15 AM

"indication"
Bugger!
Indicating!


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 10:43 AM

Snail, if you think
it will never be 6.25 cents either in Sussex or Ireland
you've probably never been to a real white sale ;-).

Tyke wrote
my Guitar was a quarter of a semi tone out
i.e. either tuned badly or with misplaced frets due to warping or imprecise manufacturing. There is however another method to be out of tune on a guitar: misplaced fingers of the left hand, particularly in higher positions. Some call it blues.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 10:54 AM

Quarter tone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Google the above for an excellent article on quarter-tone music.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: closet-folkie
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 12:43 PM

It's a common method, amongst musicians, of indication the chords to a number quickly and easily - "Key of C, chords 1,4,5 and 6m" for instance, and everyone knows what's required.

Thanks for sharing. It's no wonder no-one invites me to 'round to play...


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 12:48 PM

happy solstice Snail, may you enjoy your christmas fayre , watch out for the thrushes, im sending them over to gobble you up


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 01:26 PM

The Thrushes , also sing, in mean tone, they are very mean about equal tempered semitones.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 12:00 PM

Gawd, Mudcat!

You try to make a silly joke and a couple of days later you're being threatened with temperamental thrushes. Still, they'll make a change from turkey.

Merry Christmas Dick and try to learn to admit you're wrong occasinally. I think you'll find it liberating.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 12:29 PM

occasionally not occasinaly Snail, Snail I have admitted I WAS wrong.
THE ONLY THING I FIND LIBERATING IS A PINT OF HARVEYS


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Nick
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 12:47 PM

Didn't have you down as a sherry drinker...


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 01:00 PM

A pint of Bristol Cream would probably liberate your lunch...


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 01:16 PM

Bristol Milk, preferably staright from the teat of a

buxom dark haired 38D


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 02:00 PM

You fuckin` guys don`t drink worth shit. Try some Muscatel. Bristol Cream--jaysus, spare me.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 02:19 PM

occasionally not occasinaly Snail

Thanks for the expert help, Dick.


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 09:40 PM

OMG - I started a serious discussion, and they took me seriously!


I'm not sure which is worse....


I'll get me hat...


OK

The Wikipedia article is highly confusing - as since 'modern music' is all equally tempered, it mungles in things that are misleading by talking about 'obsolete' Pythagorean theory amongst 'equal' theory (misleading, because it gives the deluded impression that the older stuff still means something, when that philosophy was all thrown out the window when 'equal' was adopted!), music theory is now highly modified due to adoption of the modern equal temperament (and the total discarding of all previous philosophies!).

'Equal' is - somewhat like the metric measuring system totally replacing the Imperial system, - a new theoretical philosophy which threw out TOTALLY all the previous junk and started with the same known note names, and then MOVED the frequencies of the relative pitches of the various notes away from where the previous philosophies computed them to be, to where the new philosophy computed them to be. The relative notes are no longer simple Pythagorean ratios. Pythagoras is dead, Jim, Kaput, Totally. End of story.

The Wiki article tends towards the 'nonsense mystical' presentation of someone who is confused and not really understanding the theory and developmental history of the theory.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Guitars - I don't actually play, but have a couple - acoustic and electric, and have messed around... but if it is built in equal temperament, you can do nothing to change any of the fretted notes - except if you can 'bend them' in a subtle way, by stretching the strings with extra downwards or sideways pressure - you can only increase the pitches this way. If you have a 'wobble lever' as per some electric guitars, you can muck about quite a bit :-) . Now you CAN tune the open strings to be 'equal' or 'just' or 'whatever' temperament you want relative to each other, but then you merely have a melange of conflicting temperaments. Some may like the resultant sound, some will not.

Just don't pretend that you know what you are talking about when you are wafflingdiscussing this with a pedantic so and so like me ... :-)

~~~~~~~~~~~~
The 'major and minor' semitones (also now preferentially called greater and lesser to stop the already displayed confusion!) only mean anything precise in a very limited area of Music Theory (not all the rubbish that some mystically heap upon the terms), for practical (and pragmatic purposes) they are theoretically identical in equal temperament, by definition, as stated before, and most especially MUST BE in equal temperament - they CAN be different in other temperaments! But you can't have BOTH temperaments on the same instrument, unless it is built to have them - with separate 'noise making buttons/levers' for each.

Interesting, some older keyboard instruments were built so as to have the options of the different 'alternate pitches' for a 'note' when the instrument was in an 'unequal' temperament, so that say a Bb or A# could have different actual pitches so as to fit in with the different relative just scales on the same instrument. This was found to be an impractical nightmare, not only for playing, but tuning (physical instruments DRIFT - which loses the wanted subtleties anyway!), so thus the drive to 'equal temperament', which while it sacrifced a few niceties, just (pardon the pun) made life simpler, especially if not playing solo, but with other instruments (which would often be in DIFFERENT preferred temperaments)!


I'll just (sorry about that) leave the soapbox over there in the corner, I suspect I'll be back .... :-)


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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 11:07 PM

Hey bwm play it 3..


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