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What is it that makes folk radio a success?

The Sandman 21 Dec 10 - 01:09 PM
GUEST,Groucho 21 Dec 10 - 01:26 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 21 Dec 10 - 01:35 PM
Little Robyn 21 Dec 10 - 02:01 PM
The Sandman 21 Dec 10 - 03:39 PM
Folkiedave 21 Dec 10 - 06:02 PM
The Sandman 22 Dec 10 - 06:35 AM
The Sandman 22 Dec 10 - 06:36 AM
Backwoodsman 22 Dec 10 - 06:49 AM
Les in Chorlton 22 Dec 10 - 10:53 AM
Backwoodsman 22 Dec 10 - 10:57 AM
Stringsinger 22 Dec 10 - 11:03 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 22 Dec 10 - 02:16 PM
GUEST,Patsy 23 Dec 10 - 02:56 AM
open mike 23 Dec 10 - 03:51 AM
GUEST,Chris B. 23 Dec 10 - 04:43 AM
Little Hawk 23 Dec 10 - 06:40 AM
Mr Red 23 Dec 10 - 10:21 AM
Les in Chorlton 23 Dec 10 - 11:49 AM
open mike 23 Dec 10 - 02:21 PM
GUEST 23 Dec 10 - 04:28 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 23 Dec 10 - 05:46 PM
GUEST,Guest - Pragmatist 23 Dec 10 - 09:06 PM
GUEST,Guest - Pragmatist 23 Dec 10 - 09:24 PM
Mr Red 24 Dec 10 - 11:43 AM
Bernard 24 Dec 10 - 01:09 PM
Bernard 24 Dec 10 - 01:12 PM
GUEST,Guest - Pragmatist 24 Dec 10 - 09:03 PM
GUEST,bankley 24 Dec 10 - 11:20 PM
bruceCMR 25 Dec 10 - 07:25 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Dec 10 - 09:31 AM
Bernard 25 Dec 10 - 06:35 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 25 Dec 10 - 07:25 PM
GUEST,Guest - Pragmatist 25 Dec 10 - 09:30 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 25 Dec 10 - 11:12 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Dec 10 - 04:31 AM
Bruce from Bathurst 26 Dec 10 - 08:25 AM
Vic Smith 26 Dec 10 - 08:39 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 26 Dec 10 - 08:50 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 26 Dec 10 - 10:21 AM
Stringsinger 26 Dec 10 - 01:40 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 26 Dec 10 - 02:08 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 26 Dec 10 - 02:12 PM
Folkiedave 26 Dec 10 - 04:06 PM
Bernard 26 Dec 10 - 04:39 PM
GUEST,Guest - Pragmatist 26 Dec 10 - 09:16 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Dec 10 - 02:40 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Dec 10 - 03:29 AM
Fred McCormick 27 Dec 10 - 06:26 AM
Fred McCormick 27 Dec 10 - 10:30 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 27 Dec 10 - 10:50 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Dec 10 - 12:51 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 27 Dec 10 - 02:44 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Dec 10 - 03:30 PM
TheSnail 27 Dec 10 - 05:00 PM
Lox 27 Dec 10 - 05:20 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Dec 10 - 02:53 AM
TheSnail 29 Dec 10 - 02:23 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Dec 10 - 03:24 PM
The Sandman 29 Dec 10 - 05:58 PM
The Sandman 29 Dec 10 - 06:54 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Dec 10 - 03:48 AM
TheSnail 30 Dec 10 - 10:08 AM
The Sandman 30 Dec 10 - 01:04 PM
The Sandman 30 Dec 10 - 02:42 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Dec 10 - 02:42 PM
Valmai Goodyear 30 Dec 10 - 08:12 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Dec 10 - 02:58 AM
Valmai Goodyear 31 Dec 10 - 05:20 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Dec 10 - 06:08 AM
TheSnail 31 Dec 10 - 09:06 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 31 Dec 10 - 09:34 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jan 11 - 07:53 AM
The Sandman 01 Jan 11 - 08:38 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jan 11 - 09:23 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jan 11 - 09:38 AM
The Sandman 01 Jan 11 - 09:48 AM
TheSnail 01 Jan 11 - 10:38 AM
GUEST 01 Jan 11 - 11:18 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jan 11 - 11:37 AM
GUEST 01 Jan 11 - 11:47 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 01 Jan 11 - 11:48 AM
Little Hawk 01 Jan 11 - 11:55 AM
Jeri 01 Jan 11 - 11:56 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jan 11 - 12:06 PM
The Sandman 01 Jan 11 - 12:28 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 01 Jan 11 - 01:13 PM
The Sandman 01 Jan 11 - 01:38 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 01 Jan 11 - 01:57 PM
The Sandman 01 Jan 11 - 02:06 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 01 Jan 11 - 02:12 PM
TheSnail 01 Jan 11 - 02:35 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 01 Jan 11 - 02:50 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Jan 11 - 04:18 AM
GUEST,Alan Squires 02 Jan 11 - 05:16 AM
Vic Smith 02 Jan 11 - 06:45 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 02 Jan 11 - 08:33 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 02 Jan 11 - 09:18 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jan 11 - 11:19 AM
Little Hawk 02 Jan 11 - 11:26 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 02 Jan 11 - 11:28 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jan 11 - 04:28 AM
GUEST,Dave Eyre 03 Jan 11 - 05:09 AM
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Subject: what isit tha makes folk radio a sucess
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 01:09 PM

whatare the ingredients for success


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Subject: RE: what isit tha makes folk radio a sucess
From: GUEST,Groucho
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 01:26 PM

Literacy.


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Subject: RE: what isit tha makes folk radio a sucess
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 01:35 PM

a radio station


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Subject: RE: what is it that makes folk radio a sucess
From: Little Robyn
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 02:01 PM

I dunno but we did it!!!
Our radio show each week on Kidnapper's Community Radio.
Folk on Sunday
They've just had the end of year awards and we received one!
"Radio Kidnappers Supreme Show 2010."
We have a framed disc (looks like a Golden disc only it's yellow) that names our programme.
We've been going since 1996 and have broadcast almost 750 shows.
The reception area isn't great - about 100 mile radius on 1431AM, much smaller on 104.5FM, but if you follow the links on the web site (and sort out the time zones - we're on daylight saving at the moment) you could listen to us on your computer.
Robyn and Mitch Park


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Subject: RE: what isit tha makes folk radio a sucess
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 03:39 PM

Geoff, guest Groucho, what has literacy got to do withrunning a successful radio programme


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Subject: RE: what isit tha makes folk radio a sucess
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 06:02 PM

In the same way that Conrad was asked to define "fail" you need to say what you mean by "successful".


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 06:35 AM

has lots of listeners,whilst playing a broad spectrum of folk music.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 06:36 AM

tell us the secrets of your success, folkie dave.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 06:49 AM

"has lots of listeners,whilst playing a broad spectrum of folk music"

Mike Harding's show has lots of listeners and plays a wide spectrum of folk music, and yet many of the self-elected cognoscenti of the UK folk-world (including a fair sprinkling of Mudcatters) heap scorn on it.

Lester and Mick's 'Folkwaves' has lots of listeners and plays a wide spectrum of folk music, it's arguably THE best folk-music show on British radio (I'd argue that it is, anyway), and yet the BBC have seen fit to kick it into touch.

So there must be more to it than just that?

But I don't know what it is.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 10:53 AM

Mike Harding does.

L in C#
But his is not the only way


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 10:57 AM

Agreed, Les.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 11:03 AM

Once again, Ron has it right. Context, history and doing the homework about the background for singers and songs and showing the connection not the dissection of folk music, as if you were cutting slices and dices of an expression without seeing the whole deal.

I know what it is because I grew up in it as an outsider and appreciator of the people who I've had the privilege to know in the field and because I listened to each performer, song, event with a different set of ears. I should be in radio doing a folk program but I don't have the time now. Ya' gotta live and survive.

So there are those like Dick Greenhaus who know what's going on here that should be doing it or guys like Joe Hickerson, maybe McCutcheon, who also doesn't have the time, Pete Seeger who did do it and made a tremendous contribution with his Rainbow show on T.V., or Art Theime and for the New England folklore, Captain Kendall. Part of being an educator is knowing how to do that which you are teaching.

Folklore is not just bookish but it's doing it by telling stories, singing songs, saying what you like about it, digging into the traditions and illuminating those patterns that give a folk music its national, cultural and individual art. Also, if you can, writing songs that carry on that tradition.

Where people go wrong is assuming that folk music is "one thing" that defines it and that turns the public off who instinctively know better.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 02:16 PM

Well said Frank!

I've always considered myself a student, constantly learning and reading - and not shutting doors to new ideas and music.

Radio needs to entertain and educate and make it all fun!


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 02:56 AM

Intelligent chat and educational unlike the banal dj speak on commercial radio. Sometimes folk radio will come up with pieces of music that you have not come across before so I make sure I have pad and pen ready to jot down anything that interests me before scouring the small record shops.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: open mike
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 03:51 AM

longevity
ask Oscar Brand


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: GUEST,Chris B.
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 04:43 AM

I think that another factor is the enthusiasm of the producers. And with Internet streaming there can now be loads of specialist stations online. The challenge is to find them. I know that Mitch and Robyn Park (Little Robyn here) have an amazing folk programme that they put out on Cape Kidnappers in New Zealand. And I believe that fRoots in the UK puts out a programme using RSS - but I've never actually managed to receive this (and the files are too big for my 3 mobile dongle account). Any audio stream can also be captured for later listening using Audacity, even from BBC iPlayer. So with the latter Mike Harding's progs. (the UK one) and BBC Alba progs. can be captured world-wide. As can streaming from RTE (from Eire). And all of this says nothing about the many stations in the USA and Canada. Maybe someone here could produce a list of folk programmes streaming on the web?


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 06:40 AM

What is it that makes the Mudcat Discussion Forum a success?





















Internet addiction!!!!!!!!!!   ;-)


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 10:21 AM

A presenter who knows and loves the subject. Goes to the events within the genre. Networking to tell people about the programme.

Did I say networking? Or did I mean shameless self-promotion?

Cresby's Cajun Capers (scripts & playlist)
streamed live Stroud FM
alt Mondays 9pm GMT (eg Jan 2) repeated alt Sundays 12 mid-day 13 days later (eg Jan 1 datum).
repeated every Wed @ 3am GMT

Enjoy - hopefully.

the hilarity of jokes can go up as well as down!


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 11:49 AM

Loads of good music. Those of us within the genre probably enjoy the gossip, banter, in-jokes, listings of obscure events and so on, but we are a minority. Beyond our 'fringe' are thousands and thousands of people who enjoy the music but don't want the rest.

L in C#


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: open mike
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 02:21 PM

infotainment, entermation, edumacation, a blending of the two on my show.
I like to keep informed about folk music and musicians and when I play
music i try to accompany it with background about the song, the singer
or the "liner notes" so that listeners come away not only enjoying but
understanding a bit more about the music, so as to engage both the right and the left brain. This has elicited positive comments by listeners (now if they would just join the station and pay their membership dues so we could be assured of continuing...) I also challenge myself and my memory of songs by choosing a theme for each show (either a topic, such as trees or trains, or by concentrating on an instrument such as ukulele or accordion, or a seasonal event such as mother's day , st. pat's..) and trying to focus much of my 2 hour show on that theme.

I also incorporate a feature which is unique to my show, I believe:
I read excerpts from (several) farmer's almanacs . There is a show
"Le Show" by where the host reads several columns from papers about advertising, home sales and other items with a satirical comment.
http://www.harryshearer.com/ mentions that these readings are a copy righted feature of his show. Though not a folk show, this show has some unique properties. And that is what I hope to accomplish--


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 04:28 PM

Hi Mike - almost the same as what I do.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 05:46 PM

In all seriousness, I don't think there is a single answer to this question.   Every successful folk radio host that I know has their own unique personality and own taste in music and their own style of presenting the music.

Frank hit on the key ingredient - doing homework. Sharing that information without lecturing the audience is critical. Each host needs to develop their own way of talking to their audiences.

I've heard some wonderful shows that focus on single styles of folk music - some shows are strictly traditional, some are strictly contemporary. Both styles can work if done with taste and personality.

For me, my favorite shows are the ones that show the diversity of styles and cultures that make up our folk community. Sort of like attending a folk festival each week - as you go from stage to stage you will hear different style performers and have a good time.

Personally, I have found that playing requests can be dangerous. You end up sounding like a jukebox and programming your show for the small percentage of people that will call or write you. They are not your entire audience.    The same advice for not playing only your favorites. The show will end up playing the same songs and performers and will get boring for the host and the audience.

Have fun, the audience picks up on that.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: GUEST,Guest - Pragmatist
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 09:06 PM

Whoops - pressed the wrong key!

Mick and Lester's programme WAS (IT AINT COMING BACK - SORRY FOLKS) probably the best folk programme in England.

I know from personal experience just how dedicated they both were to the programme and the lengths they went to to ensure that it happened each week live when it would have been easier to slip in a recorded show.

Unfortunately folk music has always been an easy target when the cutting blade is being wielded.

The music has survived worse knock backs than this, regretable as it is, and despite the media and the chancers will come back stronger than ever.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: GUEST,Guest - Pragmatist
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 09:24 PM

Whoops

Dropped into the wrong thread - but - amazingly most of what I said is relevant.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Dec 10 - 11:43 AM

as open mike says

play the music, add information about the tracks, the subject of the song, tell people about related events locally and make the connections between the tracks with humour, factoids etc.

Add interviews (3 minute episodes max)

Above all sound interesting.

Some people shouldn't make programmes. It has to be said.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Bernard
Date: 24 Dec 10 - 01:09 PM

Sounds of Folk Christmas Special on now (6-8pm GMT Friday 24th Dec)


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Bernard
Date: 24 Dec 10 - 01:12 PM

I think Mick and Lester's programme will continue in some form, either online via the Music Well (as Sounds of Folk did for a while) or on another station (as Sounds of Folk does now).

You can't keep a good programme down!!


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: GUEST,Guest - Pragmatist
Date: 24 Dec 10 - 09:03 PM

I'm not sure if Mick and Lester would want to produce a programme that was only available to the dedicated few.

Being able to present folk to a wide audience was I am sure a great incentive to them.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: GUEST,bankley
Date: 24 Dec 10 - 11:20 PM

good music....

fuck the bullshit


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: bruceCMR
Date: 25 Dec 10 - 07:25 AM

It's certainly not just the music! If that were true, then we'd all just listen to itunes etc.

As I said in the other thread, it's all about being part of a community, broadcasting with it, rather than to it. It should be verging towards a dialogue rather than a broadcast. Yes, you need good music, but you also need knowledgeable, interesting presenters and community involvement.

Bruce
(Celtic Music Radio 1530, http://www.celticmusicradio.net


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Dec 10 - 09:31 AM

Not trying to please all of the people all of the time, raelising that there are a wide range of interests and preferences and not trying to cater for all of them at the same time - that's how it used to work anyway.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Bernard
Date: 25 Dec 10 - 06:35 PM

'I'm not sure if Mick and Lester would want to produce a programme that was only available to the dedicated few.'

I don't think so, either - but Radio Derby isn't a mainstream station any more than Oldham Community Radio... we have listeners in Australia, New York and Texas (apart from the UK) thanks to the internet.

So where's the problem?!!


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 25 Dec 10 - 07:25 PM

"realising that there are a wide range of interests and preferences and not trying to cater for all of them at the same time - that's how it used to work anyway."

The old models do not usually work when it comes to radio audiences. Tastes change.   Jim is right about not trying to be everything for everyone, but shows can be diverse and interesting to casual listeners as well hardcore folkies. There are some specialty shows that narrow their focus, and they are very good, but they usually will not last long. It has been said that listners tune in for 20 minute clips, and "regulars" tend to listen to certain shows for 2 years before moving on to something else. I think folk audiences tend to be a bit more loyal, but the narrower the focus, the less chance of long term survival.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: GUEST,Guest - Pragmatist
Date: 25 Dec 10 - 09:30 PM

Bernard

You confound your own argument.

Listening on line is not the same as tuning in to your local radio station.

It is for the dedicated minority if we are to be pedantic.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 25 Dec 10 - 11:12 PM

Pragmatist - not sure how quickly it will advance to the UK, but listening to the internet will soon be just as easy as listening to your local radio station. 4G networks will soon make internet listening available in cars and other devices.

In addition, the listening habits of younger audiences are drifting from radio toward the internet.

It is no longer a dedicated minority.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Dec 10 - 04:31 AM

"The old models do not usually work when it comes to radio audiences."
Sorry Ron - they are working here at present - described as 'the golden age of Irish music' a few days ago in the press.
People who want to listen to Joe Heaney are not necessarily going to bother their arses about a singer-songwriter - subsitute Harry Cox and Jim Moray.
Rather than hoping casual listeners drop in on the off chance, wouldn't it be better to aim specific music as specific audiences with a bit of intelligent presentation?
If the pick-n-mix approach had actually worked in the UK, you might have an argument - 'loyaly' sounds too much like the 'Rourke's Drift' approach to me.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Bruce from Bathurst
Date: 26 Dec 10 - 08:25 AM

Hands up all those who present programs on something resembling a "community" radio station. (You can choose your own definition.)

Hmmm. That's what I thought. I can see some familiar names but not many from my end of town.

In so many respects the internet has a lot to answer for. Sure, you can listen to my program if you want, wherever you are. 2MCE-FM streams happily to the world via our clunky website and I'd be thrilled if you tuned in each Sunday from 12 to 2pm. The thing is, here in Australia, a community station is supposed to sink or swim based on its relevance and value to the people who live in the community around it. You might even say its success or failure depends on it.

There are more than 300 radio stations in the community broadcasting sector in Australia and most of those licences are held by not for profit community groups. The licences are reviewed regularly and some are not renewed and some are revoked if a station doesn't live up to its promises. That means all our programs are (or should be) subject to scrutiny by our local station boards or committees of management.

I've presented my program since 1976 so, because of its longevity, it must be a success, right? However, I'm rather biased in favour of traditional and intrumental music, so the program could be a failure in the eyes of singer songwriters. I'm a musician myself so, naturally, I know everything about the genre and my program must therefore be a success. But, occasionally, my political and social views might prompt me to play certain material on the program, so my perceived lack of objectivity could make the program a failure.

Some of the above is true [grin] and I hope you see what I'm getting at. If you're a radio presenter in this country, you and your friends might think you deserve a gold medal, but your program's survival depends on how the judges score your performance. Sadly, those judges aren't your listeners, either locally or on line.

I place enormous value on the vibrant and passionate discussions on Mudcat and I've learned a lot here, mostly just as a lurker. I'm sure we all want to share the music we love with our community, whether we're performers, broadcasters, listeners, festival or folk club organisers, whatever, and I suppose I've tried to 'succeed' in each of those.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but here's the reality check for me. Every few years our station's licence is reviewed. That's when I really have to look beyond my own navel and justify my weekly two hour slot, although I certainly look beyond the survival of the program to gauge its success. The success of a radio program is subject to many variables, but the station staying on air is probably one of the most important.

There have been a number of very insightful posts in this thread, and on its evil twin thread. This probably isn't one of those insightful posts.

Bruce


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Dec 10 - 08:39 AM

Could I put in a mention for Fred McCormick's internet radio programme, World of Trad?

Great music - generally from the ethnic end of folk/traditional/world music/blues/jazz. It is skilfully presented by Fred with great knowledge and enthusiasm.

Go straight to the station player at http://www.live365.com/cgi-bin/mini.cgi?station_name=oneworldmusic&tm .

On the other hand, you can bring up the station page first. Click on http://www.live365.com/stations/oneworldmusic . Then roll the mouse over the face near the top of the screen and click the grey PLAY button when it appears. Then, if you press the little PLUS sign to the right of where it says Worlds Of Trad, you can save Worlds of Trad as a preset. That will save you having to search the next time you listen in.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 26 Dec 10 - 08:50 AM

Thanks Bruce...Interesting post. An occasional check from the bosses to make sure that there is not too much naval gazing going on is probably a good thing! I'll pop in and listen sometime, Thanks.
As for the Derby show. When it started Years ago, originally with Mick Peat and Barry Coope, the internet access that we have now, just didn't exist. And the format has remained roughly the same. Local gig guides (illustrated by recordings of artists if available) plus other musics that the presenters thought might be of interest to like minded souls.
Mick and Lester, here in late 2010, haven't changed the format that much over the years, and still cater for, and support the events that happen in the East Midlands.
Of course, I'm sure that they're delighted that technology has moved on, and they can be heard world wide, but that is not the value of the programme.
The value is to support local events. Which is exactly what they do.
(Well one more time anyway!)


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Dec 10 - 10:21 AM

"Rather than hoping casual listeners drop in on the off chance, wouldn't it be better to aim specific music as specific audiences with a bit of intelligent presentation?"

It may be that we are coming from two different countries with two different audiences, but the answer to your question is not easy on either side of the Atlantic.

I would hope that you DO want casual listeners to drop in and discover what the music is all about. Narrowcasting to specific audiences is risky, especially when the hardcore audience that you are talking about is such a tiny portion of the landscape.

I love to listen to Joe Heaney, and I love to show the music that blossomed out of the community that he so well represented. Contemporary folk music is made in the same fashion that the songs Joe sang were originally made, the mode of transmission has changed with the times. Audiences seem to have a positive response from the diversity that shows the roots and how the branches have spread.   

It would be nice if a program that focused entirely on source singers and singers of folk songs from the tradition could sustain itself with a large and supportive audience. Here in the U.S., shows of this type are offered on listener supported radio stations. Limited donations would mean a short shelf life for that type of program. It is unfortunate in many respects, but it is the way radio works here.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Dec 10 - 01:40 PM

Jim,

As sympathetic to the idea that one form of music has a depth to it, subsequently appealing to a specific enthusiastic audience for that style, what works against it is an binding academic rigidity that precludes the listener from being introduced to and
enjoying an outgrowth or variation of that music.

In short, a kind of "purism" is not ultimately a potent form of communication.

I think of Tommy Peoples' style of fiddling being rejected by the Comhaltas,
Jazz not being offered as an offshoot of American blues and African-American music, and Joan Baez being refused admittance to a former folk music program at UCLA by D.K.Wilgus because she was deemed "too commercial".

Keep the trad singers and players but show their ability to generate new music forms.

If it weren't for the popularizing Pete Seegers of the world, we wouldn't know much about the value of folk music in its various forms.


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Subject: RE: Folk Music NOT DEAD on radio
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 26 Dec 10 - 02:08 PM

On my desk have I a 6+ page list of US and Canadian stations which play(ed) Folk music by day and time, The list is dated FEB. 22, 2006.

I just checked six stations that broadcast folk programs on Sunday morning, then; five still do: KLCC, WOUB, WUWF, WORT, & KRFC. About 10 min. ago they back announced an tune by Seamus Kennedy (our own compatriot?).

Based on this small sampling, I'm supposing that folk music is alive and picking (with apologies to MKAlden) on the radio.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 26 Dec 10 - 02:12 PM

I just checked six stations that broadcast folk programs on Sunday morning, KFRC back-announced a song by Seamus Kennedy (our own compatriot?).

That show is now over, but WAER is on air/online with Common Threads. By grannies, that's one for our side.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Dec 10 - 04:06 PM

And I have just posted this week's playlist from Friday. They are not in order. See the Thread "Thank Goodness It's Folk"


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Bernard
Date: 26 Dec 10 - 04:39 PM

GUEST,Guest - Pragmatist

I do not 'confound my own argument'...

Oldham Community Radio 99.7fm broadcasts on air, but our audience is expanded by the internet.

BBC GMR (where we used to broadcast), or to give it its 'new' name, Radio Manchester, is a local radio station exactly as is Radio Derby.

They, too, have expanded their audience via the internet.

Please be sure of your facts before posting.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: GUEST,Guest - Pragmatist
Date: 26 Dec 10 - 09:16 PM

Bernard

We are all rooting for the same ends and I was not knocking Oldham Community Radio or any other local programme, in fact I wish them all well and thank all those who enable them to continue.

I merely wished to point out that accessing anything on line needs a whole heap of expensive computer equipment - a local radio programme can be heard on a £2 (or less!) receiver.

cheers


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Dec 10 - 02:40 AM

What is it that makes folk radio a success?

Probably the opposite of:

Subject: Why do folk music radio programs fail?

GfS


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Dec 10 - 03:29 AM

"in short, a kind of "purism" is not ultimately a potent form of communication."
You mean classical music programmes should include Bert Kamfert?
Sorry - it's not what's worked here, nor was it what I suggested, and IMO 'Purism' , 'finger-in-ear', et al is little more than a substitute for argument I'm afraid.
The turnaround in the fortunes of Irish music has happened because those involved have gone back to the roots - have specialised.
Over this week I will be able to watch a programme on veteran Irish piper Tom McCarthy, three, hour-long programmes on sea songs and the old ususl wall-to-wall television and radio programmes of tradititional music virtually every night of the week - Come West Along The Road, Geantrai.....all that old stuff (all on national stations).
This will continue week after week, throughout the year and will include the annual award for Traditional Musician of the Year sponsored by one of the three national television stations (two recipients from this town). I will be able to turn on the TV or radio any day of the week and listen to traditional music - and as much of the other stuff (singer-songwriter, experimental... whatever, as I care to put up with.
The really important result of all this - youngsters are flocking to the music in droves - next St Pat's Day will see a turnout from this town of upward of a hundred youngsters from school age to teens, playing unwatered-down Irish music from a reasonable standard to superb.
I suggest that perhaps the proof of the pudding is in the eating - 'I've shown you mine, now you show me yours'.
Perhaps - just perhaps the solution to the problem has something to do with passing off the presentation of folk music as 'binding rigidity' - "the answer lies out there", I'm sure.
In the long run, putting water in the whiskey only leads to people developing a taste for watered down whiskey.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 27 Dec 10 - 06:26 AM

Vic Smith. Could I put in a mention for Fred McCormick's internet radio programme, World of Trad?

http://www.live365.com/stations/oneworldmusic

You certainly can Vic. Good to hear from you, and all the usual season's greetings.

In case anyone wonders why the programme hasn't been updated for a while, I've been laid low with innumerable forms of the lurgy, each one more deadly than the last. However, I'm now feeling much better, and have the next edition ready to roll onto the ether right after New Years day.

Watch all the usual spaces.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 27 Dec 10 - 10:30 AM

I should have added that the present Worlds of Trad upload is still in situ and still playing music, and will be until next week, when I upload the next upload.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Dec 10 - 10:50 AM

"You mean classical music programmes should include Bert Kamfert?"

That is comparing apples and oranges. Classical has a diverse body of work and a much larger audience compared to folk music you are describing. Bert Kamfert has not led to the loss of any of the masterworks of classical music, and Kamfert did give us "Strangers in the Night" and other songs that people love.

Your model for radio is much different than ours, and if it can sustain as many programs as you claim, then consider yourself very lucky. I truly wish that would work in this country, but it has been shown to limit the audience and lead to elimination of that type of program. Audience here tend to appreciate quality and pay less attention to the pedigree.

I don't think anyone is suggesting "watering down the whiskey", although it is well known that adding water can unlock many flavors in whiskey that were previously unseen by those who drink it neat - but there seems to be a sort of stigma attached to the practice. It is a shame that others dictate how people should enjoy their drink.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Dec 10 - 12:51 PM

"Classical has a diverse body of work"
Highly debatable that it's any more diverse than folk!
"and a much larger audience compared to folk music"
We have lost much of our audience though, IMO, trying to 'please 'em all' I can remember Lloyd claiming that folk had a greater audience than clssical at the height of the revival, and I can believe it.
None of which has anything whatever to do with what you present and how you produce it.
"Your model for radio is much different than ours"
Don't know where you are, or what you think my music is - but I spent nearly forty active years as part of the British revival - and the only difference between Ireland and the UK is that over here they have guaranteed that the songs and music will survive into the next generation, and that hasn't happened by accident.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Dec 10 - 02:44 PM

I know and admire your work Jim. I am in the United States.

We could debate the diversity and audience size of classical versus folk, and I would point out the number of full time radio stations here that broadcast classical as opposed to folk.

I really do not believe we lost audience because we "tried to please them all". If anything, I think that the faction that drew lines in the sand as to what was folk turned off more people than helped gain new fans. There was also the "Mighty Wind" crowd that turned folk into a commercial entity that bore little connection to what anyone would consider the tradition.

I am certain that the songs and music will survive into the next generation and well beyone. People have been predicting the doom of the traditions since the early 1900's and it has not happened yet, and I doubt it ever will. The only difference is, the tradition that they were trying to save 100 years ago was a living tradition, and we have a contemporary version of that living tradition that tends to get ignored or downplayed.   The gift is the song itself, not the pedigree.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Dec 10 - 03:30 PM

Ron,
Can't speak for the US - I saw the downturn here in the UK, which was preceeded by a remarkable public debate started off by an article in Folk Review entitled 'Crap Begets Crap' - still have some of it on file.
The clubs I had experience of that lasted longers with the largest audiences were those which didn't flap their arms about and run round like headless chickens were those which decided what music they were going to specialise in, and went for it.
Those who dropped out of the scene did so because they were neither fish nor fowl.
The persistant compaint at the time was that people wouldn't go to folk clubs because they didn't know what they were going to hear.
The scene never picked up from there.
"I am certain that the songs and music will survive into the next generation and well beyone."
I wonder which songs and music - I can tell you what Irish songs and music will survive and flourish - don't have clue about the UK any more - the scene seems to be full of mayflies whose attention span doesn't stretch over more than three verses.
Good luck -
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Dec 10 - 05:00 PM

Jim Carroll

don't have clue about the UK any more

Glad you've finally admitted it, Jim.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Lox
Date: 27 Dec 10 - 05:20 PM

Government funding ...


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 02:53 AM

"Glad you've finally admitted it, Jim. "
Nope - don't have a clue how they/you are going to get out of the mess they/you have gotten themselves/youurselves in Stanley.
Might have worked with a concious attempt to raise standards, but you seem all set against that.
Just know what has worked over here.
"Government funding."
That's been a massive help in Ireland, where appeals for grants have been pushing on an open door; it's funded some wonderful long and short-term projects.
Not sure how it would be regarded with a revival who can't even define their music.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: TheSnail
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 02:23 PM

I know this is futile but there are points that need responding to.

Jim Carroll

don't have a clue how they/you are going to get out of the mess they/you have gotten themselves/youurselves in Stanley.

As you have pointed out, Jim, UK folk clubs went into decline during the eighties at a time when you were involved as an organiser and I was not. The real question is, how do those who stayed on (rather than walking out and heading for the west coast of Ireland) and have been successfully running clubs ever since and those of us who have taken up the reins since then get out of the mess that YOU got us into. On the whole, I don't think we're doing too badly. But then you wouldn't know because, as you quite rightly say, you don't have clue about the UK any more.

Might have worked with a concious attempt to raise standards, but you seem all set against that.

Hmmm, trying to decide whether that constitutes a personal attack worthy of a complaint to Joe or even a civil case for slander. I care very much for raising standards. I put in a considerable amount of practice to raise my own standard. The residents of the club, by their own example and by their booking policy, try and create an atmosphere in which standards matter. We try to provide an environment in which people can raise their own standards because, ultimately, we believe that responsibility for performance standards lies with the performer. What we don't do, is try to impose our standards on other people.

Just know what has worked over here.
"Government funding."
That's been a massive help in Ireland, where appeals for grants have been pushing on an open door; it's funded some wonderful long and short-term projects.


Count yourself lucky. We don't have that here. The government attitude is somewhere between indifference and hostility, not just to folk music but to all community based music. They would rather people were watching SKY Sport.

Don't get too smug. In the present economic climate, that funding could disappear in a moment and Irish traditional music could evaporate like the morning mist. We have to fend for ourselves so we may be more resilient.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 03:24 PM

Still as snide as ever I see
I was involved in the clubs up to twelve years ago, when we moved here.
The clubs we halped run were reasonably successful - the Singers only closed after the death of Ewan, and Peggy's move back to America - (perhaps you'd like to take that up with her).
Not coincidentally, all the clubs were policy clubs so the audiences who turned up knew what they were going to get - and we didn't lower the standard by encouraging people who couldn't sing to perform in public, by making the basic crierion that they want to sing - whether they could manage to handle a tune or not - we gave them a workshop to help them develop.
"I don't think we're doing too badly."
Even my limited experience, and the discussion on this forum pesuades me that the case is different - unless your life doesn't extend beyong the boundaries of Lewes.
"a complaint to Joe or even a civil case for slander."
Please feel free - you started this in your customary unpleasant way, and you continue it equally unpleasantly.   
"Count yourself lucky."
Nothing to do with luck - knowing what your music is and focusing on it has worked wonders.
"Don't get too smug. In the present economic climate, that funding could disappear in a moment"
It could indeed, but the fact that thousands of youngsters have joined the scene and are playing well leaves us with a fair chance that it will survive in good health for at least another generation - it's no longer about money, if it ever was. The people who put in the work did so from scratch when Irish music was being sneered at on the media as 'diddly-di' music.
Everything that has been gained here has been hard fought for.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 05:58 PM

Music should be about ENJOYMENT.
If the presenter of a programme manages to communicate that enthusiasm, and manages to blend their enthusiasm with a knowledge of the music that should hopefully be a stepping stone to success.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 06:54 PM

Pardon me for interrupting,You are 2 people who care about promoting music, you have sightly different approaches and different ideas about performance.
your ideals probably work well for your own different situations.
maybe that is the success of folk radio presentation knowing your audience,and receiving feedback from ones audience, would not a radio presenter in Clare have a somewhat different audience to a Sussex radio presenter?.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 03:48 AM

"Pardon me for interrupting,You are 2 people who care about promoting music, "
Not about sharing ideas here Cap'n - it's about being shouted (in this case sneered') down by people who don't like your opinions.
Jm Carroll


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 10:08 AM

Perhaps I should have resisted the temptation to poke fun at Jim for his admition that he didn't "have clue about the UK any more" but it was such an easy target.

I have no criticism of Jim's work or methods but great admiration for everything he has done for folk music. If not, I wouldn't be bothering with him.

What now seems a long time ago, I gave an honest answer to a simple question about choice of floor singers. Since then I have been treated to a tirade of abuse flowing out from Miltown Malbay. I have been told my opinions are crass, that I am guilty of dumbing down and promoting crap standards and now that I am all set against raising standards. It makes Jim's complaint of "being shouted (in this case sneered') down by people who don't like your opinions" a bit rich.

I have tried in the past to debate reasonably with Jim but he invariably descends into abuse as soon as he runs out of rational arguments.

I think I am fairly restrained in my responses but it's difficult to be immaculately polite to someone who once compared me to Goebbels.

Still, it's nice to know I'm in good company. This article in Living Tradition and the

response in the letters page make interesting reading.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 01:04 PM

Bryan, it is ridiculous to suggest that Jim was responsible for the supposed mess.
yes, it does make interesting reading, but WHY mention it?
That review in my opinion, was an example of how not to write a review.
   I think Jim had a genuine reason for complaint.
my opinions are pretty much the same as yours [Bryan] as regards the running of folk clubs, and I enjoyed your club very much ,furthermore the running of workshops[by your club] is an excellent idea, for which Valmai Goodyear and yourself and the rest of the committee deserves a medal.Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 02:42 PM

sorry , my apologies, I was referring to a different review,Bryan, I still dont understand the necessity for mentioning this review


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 02:42 PM

Sorry Cap'n
Thanks for your support, but I think you have the wrong article in mind.
Bryan
I think you'll find any abuse was very much a two-way street - we're all prone to overstating on occasion
"rather than walking out and heading for the west coast of Ireland)"
Don't ever remember being as snide as that - but I'm sure you're happy to remind me (did I really compare you with Goebells? Now that was over the top, for which I apologise - but would welcome being reminded).
Basically, our arguments stem from your proposal (said by you to be your club policy) that wannabe singers need not be able to sing before they are encouraged in front of an audience. I believe this to be a policy of dumbing down, made even worse by your admission that you didn't have non-singers turning up for a floor spot, so it was a proposdal aimed at clubs other than your own.
As stupidly stubborn as it may sound, I will go to the grave believing that would-be singers need to learn to sing in tune before they are put in front of an audience - paying or otherwise. Not to insist on this is an insult to the audience, to the club residents, and shows a contempt for the songs.
Thanks for putting up my letter (not article) to L.T. I may phrase things differently nowadays, but there's nothing I would withdraw, especially as it was aimed at somebody who I once held in great respect for his contribution to the early days of the revival.
I'm fairly happy with and proud of the contribution Pat and I made to preserving and disseminating British and Irish folksong, and, as much of our work was done in Ireland, I have no qualms in having moved here to tie up loose ends of our work, and where, incidentally, we have found a welcoming home for our recordings, which leave us in the happy situation of not having to worry or browbeat anybody in order to make them fully accessible to the general public, thanks to the Irish Traditional Music Archive - would such a place existed in the UK for our English recordings.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 08:12 PM

Jim Carroll wrote:

'Might have worked with a concious attempt to raise standards, but you seem all set against that.'

I suggest he looks at Lewes Saturday Folk Club Workshops 2011, Lewes Favourites English Tunes Practice Sessions 2011 and Lewes Concertinas Anonymous 2011.

Happy New Year,

Valmai (Lewes)


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 02:58 AM

Hi Valmai;
Have always admired and envied your workshops, and have said so on numerous occasions. But I still can't see any on how to deal with helping new, or non-singers tackle the rudiments of singing (rather than encouraging them to 'practice in public') - which is really what this has always been about.
Happy New Year and continuing success to your club.
Jim Carrol


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 05:20 AM

I should have thought it was fairly obvious that some of the song workshops will deal with precisely that. For example, Frankie Armstrong did a whole workshop on vocal technique barely a month ago.

We book guests of high standard. Our residents are of reasonable to high standard and most do a certain amount of paid work. We teach by example. We also create a friendly, supportive atmosphere in which new singers can experiment, gain confidence and improve. Telling people to shut up avoids taking risks with hesitant performers in the short term, but in the long term discourages new singers from trying and kills off the very support the music needs.

I think this thread should return to the original topic.

Valmai (Lewes)


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 06:08 AM

"We teach by example."
Sorry Valmai - not enough for some singers in my experience; those able to respond by example are more often than not, able to handle a basic tune - it's those who can't that raise problems.
Far from 'telling people to 'shut up' as I would never do, preventing singers from humiliating themselves in front of an audience when they are unable even to handle the basics, seems both helpful and humane to me.
I know Frankie and her work well enough to know, (unless she has changed radically) it is aimed at people who can hold tunes.
Anyway - as you say - back to the topic.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 09:06 AM

Jim Carroll

Bryan
I think you'll find any abuse was very much a two-way street - we're all prone to overstating on occasion


Please feel free to quote anything I have said that compares with your direct personal attacks on me. Here is your Joe Goebbels reference.

"rather than walking out and heading for the west coast of Ireland)"

The Living Tradition letter that I linked to above is your explanation of why you walked out on the folk clubs.

Basically, our arguments stem from your proposal (said by you to be your club policy) that wannabe singers need not be able to sing before they are encouraged in front of an audience.

I have never said anything of the sort.

I believe this to be a policy of dumbing down, made even worse by your admission that you didn't have non-singers turning up for a floor spot, so it was a proposdal aimed at clubs other than your own.

No, I never said that either.

As stupidly stubborn as it may sound, I will go to the grave believing that would-be singers need to learn to sing in tune before they are put in front of an audience - paying or otherwise.

I entierly agree. Where have I ever said otherwise?

I'm fairly happy with and proud of the contribution Pat and I made to preserving and disseminating British and Irish folksong

As indeed you are entitled to be. It's just a pity that that is not the way you will be remembered. Instead, you will live on in people's memories as that embittered old man who seemed intent on undermining the efforts of all those who were striving to keep folk music alive in the UK.

And in your reply to Valmai -

preventing singers from humiliating themselves in front of an audience when they are unable even to handle the basics, seems both helpful and humane to me.

How many of the floor singers at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club and, previously, the Lewes Arms Folk Club, do you consider, from your experience, fall into that category? Name names if you like.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 09:34 AM

Amazing how a disucssion about radio has turned into a pissing contest about the state of affairs about folk clubs in the UK.   Can we either get back on track or take your discussion that effects dozens to another thread?


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 07:53 AM

"Amazing how a disucssion about radio has turned into a pissing contest about the state of affairs about folk clubs in the UK"
Not really Ron - this and related discussions can be a hypothetical 'what if we could have a choice of how our music is broadcast' ones, or - 'how do we improve the situation in order to get greater access to the media'.
Personally I would prefer the latter - you decide what you want to talk about.
Bryan - I apologise for my Goebells comment - made in the heat of a particularly bad-tempered discussion. In my own defence, it pisses me off no end to have what I say and believe to be persistently misrepresented - but on this occasion I went over the top - sorry.
"you will live on in people's memories as that embittered old man "
Not a fair assessment, and made in the spirit of nastiness I described above - there's an example for you. Certainly not the way we are treated here by those we work and associate with , but I'm not really interested in how I'm remembered as long as the people who we recorded are given the respect they merit.
We can argue the rest of your points here or elsewhere, depending on the tolerance or otherwise of the other contributors to this thread.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 08:38 AM

Most of The Radio Ballads were a success, What were the successful ingredients.
I heard the last of the recent lyric programme the Sea in Song,imo it was successful.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 09:23 AM

For those interested, Irish Lyric FM is commencing a 4 part series entitled 'Compass Ceoil' - a history of Irish traditional music.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 09:38 AM

Sorry didn't finish - commencing on Monday January 3rd at 6pm and continuing over the next 3 nights.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 09:48 AM

brilliant Jim, will try to listen


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 10:38 AM

Sorry Ron. As I said, perhaps I should not have risen to the bait of Jim's "don't have clue about the UK any more" but it was such a gift.

He responded with a predictably slanderous and abusive personal attack so I felt I had to respond in the place the attack was made. He escalated the conflict and so it goes. He tried a similar technique on Alan Whittle's "Keith and Jim - a love story?" shit stirring thread (Why wasn't it killed at birth?) where he succeeded in making the right wingers look like the good guys.

There possibly should be a thread on how those of us who are working hard to promote the music we love should repair the damage that was done thirty years ago but I fear it would turn into a bloodbath.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 11:18 AM

"Personally I would prefer the latter - you decide what you want to talk about."

Meow!!!

I guess everyone has an agenda. Those of us who are in media have our own. Mine is to perpetuate the tradition as well the contemporary offspring that blooms from the tradition.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 11:37 AM

"Sorry Ron. As I said, perhaps I should not have risen to the bait of Jim's "don't have clue about the UK any more" but it was such a gift.

He responded with a predictably slanderous and abusive personal attack so I felt I had to respond in the place the attack was made. He escalated the conflict and so it goes. He tried a similar technique on Alan Whittle's "Keith and Jim - a love story?" shit stirring thread (Why wasn't it killed at birth?) where he succeeded in making the right wingers look like the good guys.

There possibly should be a thread on how those of us who are working hard to promote the music we love should repair the damage that was done thirty years ago but I fear it would turn into a bloodbath. "

And another exampl3e of your bile - as you requested
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 11:47 AM

Jim, obviously I cannot view the world from your point of view.    I can only say that the work you have done has enabled all of us to discover a world of traditional music that would have been lost to us. That work cannot be damaged - for every scribble of graffiti, the "Mona Lisa" continues to exist for us to enjoy and learn from.

Whatever direction music has taken in your country or in England, your work stands on it's own. Instead of stooping to demean the changes that others have brought, your should be showing of the lustre of your own work and the brilliant facets that attracted YOU to the music and tradition in the first place. People are attracted to what they enjoy, and while you and I may have different definitions of how the folk tradition continues or stops, your vision should not be clouded from view.

It has been proved in advertising that negative adverts usually fail - people do not want to hear why Product A is bad, they need to see why Product B is something they would want to invest in.

Take the petty squabbles to the schoolyard, keep the discussion on track.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 11:48 AM

Sorry, that last post was mine. I did not realize my cookie disappeared


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 11:55 AM

It's the gyrating go-go girls, of course! Anyone knows that. You can't see them when it's on the radio, mind you, but you just know that they are there.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 11:56 AM

I wish there were a way to duct tape the trolls and their "camp followers" together and get them the fuck out of the threads. You're like a brawl that starts at the dining room table and crashes through walls and doors throughout the neighborhood until running out of steam several blocks and demolished houses away. Then you find something else to fight about.

You might feel like you need an audience, but I don't think your audience thanks you. As one person who has to wade through your shit in whatever thread you're currently brawling through, and as a member of your accidental audience who wonders if you have any control over yourselves at all:

please

shut

up.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 12:06 PM

"Whatever direction music has taken in your country or in England, your work stands on it's own."
Sorry guest - thanks for your kind words, but they don't come anywhere near resolving the problems of today's revival as I see them.
Our motivation for becoming involved in collecting was the inspiration obtained from our long experience with the clubs. Some of the most pleasurable times were got from our accompanying some of our singer friends to the clubs that were prepared to book them.
The warning bells sounded when, while arrangeing a few small tours for some of them we got replies like "Walter Pardon - what does he do?"; followed by, "Sorry, we only book folksingers".
I'm afraid in today's club scene, the Walters and Tom Lenihans and Mikeen McCarthy's would find a hearing in very few clubs, thanks to many of "the changes that others have brought."
I have never claimed that this is the case everywhere, but from the arguments on this forum, enough to be of serious concern.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 12:28 PM

I'm afraid in today's club scene, the Walters and Tom Lenihans and Mikeen McCarthy's would find a hearing in very few clubs, thanks to many of "the changes that others have brought."
Jim, the same also applies to unaccompanied revival singers, BACK IN 1976 ,I realised that to still get work on the uk folk scene, I would have to learn an instrument.
I apologise to all those people who over the years, I have upset with my concertina playing, particuarly those on www.session.org.
I apologise for not sounding like Noel Hill, I apologise for not playing in the proscribed comhaltas manner on the anglo concertina, on my English concertina,I apologise for having the temerity as an Englishman to think I could even play music.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 01:13 PM

"I'm afraid in today's club scene, the Walters and Tom Lenihans and Mikeen McCarthy's would find a hearing in very few clubs, thanks to many of "the changes that others have brought."

Perhaps they weren't meant to be heard in the clubs in the first place. Once you take the music out of the environment from which it was spawned and put it on the stage, you are creating a form of entertainment that was not part of the tradition. The reality is, audiences for that style of music are sparse, and probably have always been sparse.

A few years ago we presented the late Mike Seeger at our club, the Hurdy Gurdy.   Only 50 people attended, and were treated to a marvelous program. It was important that the show be presented, and while we lost money it was well worth the investment. We presented a comparatively unknown singer-songwriter the following month and drew 3 times the audience, making up for our loss.   The point is, each has it's own audience and each grows from the same roots.   It's just my opinion, but perhaps the big mistake was trying to force audiences in a pub setting to listen to music that requires a bit more consideration to be appreciated.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 01:38 PM

back to radio, would you say that Lord Reith was incorrect then Ron
Reithianism

The term 'Reithianism' describes certain principles of broadcasting associated with Lord Reith. These include an equal consideration of all viewpoints, probity, universality and a commitment to public service. It can be distinguished from the free-market approach to broadcasting, where programming aims to attract the largest audiences or advertising revenues, ahead of - and, in practice, often contrary to - any artistic merit, impartiality, educative or entertainment values, that a programme may have.
The purpose of folk clubs is not just bums on seats, that is why they often meet in a pub with a seperate room.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 01:57 PM

I have no clue as to Lord Reith. In the U.S. we had regulations that concerned broadcasting - an attempt to offer all viewpoints and to make it feasible for non-commercial stations with marginal audiences to exist. All of that went out the window with Reagan's push for deregulation, starting in the 1980's.   Now, public radio stations are competing for funds - which means donors or larger audiences.

I agree that the purpose of folk clubs is not just "bums" on seats - that was what I was trying to point out with my note about Mike Seeger. It is extremely important that they be heard and have a stage to share their art and history, but it needs to be done logically.

Perhaps the old models do not work and new stages need to be found when the "folk club" model that you have in England is not working. You can do something for the finest principles, but if no one shows up or the venue is losing money, an alternate must be found.   Perhaps churches can offer rooms or other community centers that do not rely on putting "bums" in seats.

The majority of our "folk clubs" are held in such establishments - no alcohol is present.   Believe me, I'm not a tea-totaler, I even brew my own beer, but what we have are "listening rooms" where the attraction is the music and other distractions are not present.

It's a cliche, but you need to think outside the box. Don't moan the old lightbulb, try a new LED and see how it works.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 02:06 PM

i do not accept that folk clubs are not working, where did you get that eccentric idea, have you been listening to JC


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 02:12 PM

Schweik - if they were all still around, would you book and fill a room for Walter Pardons and Tom Lenihans and Mikeen McCarthy's?


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 02:35 PM

Interesting. The clubs I go to would be fighting over who could get Walter Pardon first if he was still available. I hear his songs sung on a regular basis along with those of many other source singers. Tom Lenihan and Mikeen McCarthy, I'm not so sure about but then, we are in England. On the other hand, the "Other Club" in Lewes has booked Oliver Mulligan, Len Graham, and Con 'Fada' O'Driscoll in recent memory. Delightful performers all.

As for unnaccompanied singing, a floor singer going on towards the end of the evening a few months ago at the LSFC did an amusing skit on it - "For those who have never seen one before, this is a guitar."


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 02:50 PM

I feel that there is a place for both under the "folk" umbrella. The problem arises when there is a lack of tolerance for the tastes of others.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 04:18 AM

"Perhaps they weren't meant to be heard in the clubs in the first place"
Interesting that there was not one voice raised in protest to this outrageous statement.
Walter Pardon's 'natural environment' was to sit at home alone for thirty years , reconstructing his familiy's songs and keep them alive in his memory with the help of his melodeon. I wonder if anybody here ever saw him perform at a club and hold the audience in the palm of his hands with his beautiful singing.
Or Mikeen McCarthy, Traveller singer and storyteller - there is a wonderful warm review of his performance at the Musical Traditions Club in one of the magazines (Dance and Song?).
I was lucky enough to see The Stewarts, Wille Scott, Harry Cox, Willie McFee, Charlie Wills, Tom Lenihan..... never got to see Sam Larner, but have heard enough descriptions of his handful of legendary public performances to wish I had.
Which of us was "meant to be heard in the clubs" - can't recall hearing of anybody born in front of an audience.
These people were the glue that has kept my interest alive for coming up to half a century - yet the attitude appears to be "give us your songs and feck off home and leave them to the experts".
Thank you for making my point far better than I could Ron.
"The problem arises when there is a lack of tolerance for the tastes of others."
You mean like those who would cut out all the ballads as being "too long and boring", or who sneer at unaccompanied singing as 'finger-in-ear', or the "sorry, we only book folksingers" mob.
Not so long ago I heard of a US festival of traditional music that only booked artists who "had written their own material" - how far away from your music can you get and still call yourself 'folk'?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: GUEST,Alan Squires
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 05:16 AM

Going back to the topic title:

It is a success but it makes great broadcasting - i.e. Folkwaves.

I have seen the new schedule for Radio Derby on Monday evenings and Folkwaves is being replaced by a Cambridge grad talk show presenter - one assumes , playing pappy music and listening to callers - it will be a fascinating programme - just like all the other talk shows that make local radio what it is - generally uninspiring with a few exceptions.
Please write to simon.cornes@bbc.co.uk and tell him - I have. Its a absolute disgrace to broadcasting


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 06:45 AM

Bryan wrote:-
"On the other hand, the "Other Club" in Lewes has booked Oliver Mulligan Len Graham and Con 'Fada' O'Driscoll in recent memory."


Not forgetting Kathleen O'Sullivan, Joe Whelan, Liam Farrell, Joe Burke, Cathal McConnell, Brendan McGlinchey, Kevin Mitchell, Roisin White, Jimmy Crowley, Jerry O'Reilly, Jim McFarland, Phil Callery, Brendan McAuley, Rosie Stewart, Creena Mulchrone and Luke Cheevers.

..... Not bad for an organisation that is just the "Other Club".


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 08:33 AM

"Thank you for making my point far better than I could Ron."

I don't think you realize it, but you actually made MY point in your reply.

You've shown that you have blinders on to anyones opinion but your own, and you are not critically examining the conditions and settings that created the Walter Pardons. When you cannot overcome "had written their own material", there is no use discussing because it becomes obvious that your steadfast OPINION will never be satisfied.

Lack of tolerance appears to be the only problem hear. When you turn a source singer into an entertainer, the playing field is leveled. If you cannot accept that they become entertainers, then there can be no discussion.

I mean no disrespect. Everything you say about the singers and music that you love is valid and I admire. The music grew from that source, and you cannot see the connection.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 09:18 AM

" "Perhaps they weren't meant to be heard in the clubs in the first place"
Interesting that there was not one voice raised in protest to this outrageous statement."

I'm also surprised that not one voice was raised in protest to the fact that you took ONE sentence of what I said and manipulated to become an arguing pint, when if you read my statements - I am supporting the style of performer you wish to see presented, but questioning if the setting might be the issue.

I always question whether the collector is filtering what they gather to fulfill their own vision, rather than report and hold up a mirror to what the tradition created. Perhaps that explains why contemporary folk traditions are not even considered.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 11:19 AM

"When you turn a source singer into an entertainer,"
Source singers have always been 'entertainers' of one form or another.
As far as the setting is concerned - the ones I named became seasoned performers, some of them very quickly. I can remember very few revival singers who stood up in front of an audience with the authority that Walter Pardon did - ask anybody lucky to have seen him perform.
Not all source singers were comfortable with audiences - on the other hand I can think of many revival singers.... "I learned this coming here in the car tonight, so just in case, I'll read it from the page..."
In many cases (most, among the ones we met), the revival provided the only platform for older singers, and they were delighted, and more than able, to perform at clubs - ask anybody who saw, say - John Campbell, or the Stewarts of Blair, or Duncan Williamson, or Tom Lenihan - great performers all.
Why should I - or anybody doubt that our traditional singers were 'entertainers' - the fact that they are so much more, doesn't alter that fact?
You seem to have a number of misconceptions about collectors and their attitude to tarditional singers - wonder what you would have made of Hamish Henderson's 'People's Concerts in Edinburgh way back in the middle of the last century.
Personally, I was delighted to find clubs who would give floor space to the singers we recorded, and found it very indicative of the downturn of the revival when those clubs became less and less.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 11:26 AM

Wait...

I've changed my mind. It's not the unseen (yet ever present) gyrating go-go girls who make folk radio the huge success that it is...though, God knows, they are one of its sustaining pillars.

But nope. It's not them.

I'll tell you what it is that makes folk radio a success. It is the complete absence of Bobby Vinton polkas, Tony Clifton ballads, and Wayne Newton songs! That's what does it.

You can all quit now and move on to some other thread. ;-) Nothing more to see here.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 11:28 AM

"Why should I - or anybody doubt that our traditional singers were 'entertainers' - the fact that they are so much more, doesn't alter that fact?"

I agree. Which is why I do not see exclusion of contemporary singer-songwriters. What is the difference - a good song and a good performer is a good evening.


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 04:28 AM

"Which is why I do not see exclusion of contemporary singer-songwriters."
Once again - who suggested that singer-songwriters should be excluded - not me certainly?
My first suggestion on the original question was "not trying to please all of the people all of the time"; - that's all.
In the past, in the UK at least, we have had both general programmes that reflected what was happening in the revival, alongside of ones dealing with specific aspects of folk song (The Song Carriers (10+4 progs, Songs of the People (13 progs), Collecting Folk (8 progs), In Praise of Ballads, Curiosities of Street Literature, Folk Music Virtuoso, As They Roved Out (not to be confused with 'As I....'); a whole host of productions by specialists in their subject: Lloyd, MacColl, Charles Parker, Philip Donnellan, John Levy, Jean Jenkins, Deben Bhattacharya, Lucy Duran......; appealing to all tastes that came under the 'folk' umbrella (which was a lot smaller then than it is now).
The downturn in the scene has been reflected perfectly by the disappearence of the 'folk' presence from the media, so those involved are forced to fight our own particular corner for the 'crumbs from the rich man's table', to get our material broadcast.
I have always regarded a healthy media presence as being essential to the the future of our music - our recruiting sergeant.
I contend that in order to satisfy those remaining on the scene, and to draw fresh enthusiasts into the music, a great deal of thought has to be given to the use of the miniscule amount of airspace we have at our disposal. Rather than making an alphabet soup of the talents available, I suggest that we need to accept that people who prefer Joe Heaney are not necessarily going to be attracted by a would-be Dylan, or any other singer-songwriter (whether both are folk is a battle to be fought elsewhere).
This is not to say that you can't enjoy both - you can still enjoy the playing of Yehudi Menuin and Jean Carignan without keeping them on the same shelf.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: GUEST,Dave Eyre
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 05:09 AM

I have a radio show which is undoubtedly more "Joe" than "Snigger Snogger".

I do play contemporary material with well-known authors, and once devoted most of a programme to a self-penned album.

But there is a lot of stuff about that is not memorable - and that is what I try to avoid.


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