BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!

Subject: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 09:33 PM

From a friend via email:


By Max Fisher | December 29, 2010 9:01am

Kentucky's state-backed $150 million creationist theme park, The Ark Encounter, will allow visitors to explore a literal interpretation of the Bible's story of Noah and the ark. But pseudonymous liberal Kentucky blogger Media Czech raises two important questions about that interpretation and how it will be manifest in theme park form. First, were there dinosaurs on the original ark? Second, what about unicorns?
Now, the blogger has found answers to both questions at Answers In Genesis, the official blog of the group behind The Ark Encounter. The group says "yes," to both, which implies that their creationist theme park will include dinosaurs and unicorns on the Ark. Here's Answers In Genesis explaining why dinosaurs were on the Ark, although the group prefers to call them "dragons":

    Being land animals, dinosaurs (or dragons of the land) were created on Day Six (Genesis 1:24–31), went aboard Noah's Ark (Genesis 6:20), and then came off the Ark into the post-Flood world (Genesis 8:16–19). It makes sense that many cultures would have seen these creatures from time to time before they died out.

And here's their position on Biblical unicorns:

    The biblical unicorn was a real animal, not an imaginary creature. ... The absence of a unicorn in the modern world should not cause us to doubt its past existence. (Think of the dodo bird. It does not exist today, but we do not doubt that it existed in the past.). ... To think of the biblical unicorn as a fantasy animal is to demean God's Word, which is true in every detail.

The Kentucky blogger fumes:

    Kentucky will now be known as the state whose governor endorsed and gave $40 million in tax breaks to people who want to tell children that science and history explain that a 600 year old man herded dinosaurs, fire-breathing dragons and unicorns onto a big boat 4,000 years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Songster Bob
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 11:08 PM

You're talking about the "Park of the Covenant."

Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 11:44 PM

What about the Fairies?

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 11:52 PM

I find it very upsetting that you all believe there was an ark in the first place. Ridicule the dragons and unicorns if you must but then look at your basic tenet - all the animals of the world on a single boat.
SHEESh

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Amergin
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 12:15 AM

Foolestroupe....the fairies will be in the Castro section of the park....

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: J-boy
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 12:27 AM

The Elves built ships of their own. They sailed to the Undying Lands and lived happily ever after. This happened shortly after the War of The Rings. Don't believe me? I read it in a book for Chrissakes!

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: mousethief
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 01:46 AM

The absence of a unicorn in modern times, or a unicorn fossil in ancient rocks. Oh wait those aren't ancient rocks, they were laid down during the flood. But there aren't any unicorns in the deluvian rocks either.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 04:33 AM

The absence of unicorns from the ark has already been fully explained: Green Alligators

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 06:10 AM

Ark-Lore is alive & well!

Noah's Ark remains 'discovered'

And no red-blooded Fortean can fail to get excited by the Ark's anchor stones:

The Village of Kazan & the Anchor Stones

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Stu
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 08:15 AM

dinosaurs are still very much with us too of course.

However, if avian maniraptorins don't float your boat, who's to say the non-avian saurischians might still not be represented . . . Mokele-mbembe

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 10:32 AM

of course you need to read the article to see that AIG are not claiming a fairytale unicorn, but suggested possibilities as to the animal thus translated

studies have found that the ark was well able to house the original kinds that gave rise to the numerous varieties later.it was something like the length of a football pitch with 3 decks.
i understand that of the huge dynosaurs ;they begin much smaller and keep growing.no need to imagine huge leviathans thundering about the decks.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 10:37 AM

"gave rise to the numerous varieties later"

by evolution no doubt?

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 10:46 AM

depends what kind of evolution.eg-there were not all dogs from poodle to gt dane on the ark,but an original dog pair from which the breeds evolved or were engineered by men.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 10:48 AM

And the beetles? It would have foundered under the weight of the beetles alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 10:49 AM

When people are sure they know the basic answer, all future data must be interpreted to fit & correlate with the original premise.....no matter how silly their stories become....or what science they have to simply ignore.

(they wouldn't be able to attract many suicide bombers without convincing them there was Paradise waiting with 40 virgins and eternal life...)

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 10:49 AM

So we were all once in the same boat!

Now it's all we can do to co-exist on the same planet.

Whose turn is it to take the garbage out?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 10:52 AM

Why not train the cockroaches to eat outside?

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 10:59 AM

Not train, Manitas..."engineered by men..." like a pair of dogs.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 11:07 AM

"(they wouldn't be able to attract many suicide bombers without convincing them there was Paradise waiting with 40 virgins and eternal life...)"

What about female suicide bombers?

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 11:09 AM

nah, it's just 40 virgins.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 11:14 AM

from an earlier link: "t has long been believed that Mount Ararat, the highest point in the region, is where the Ark and it inhabitants came aground."

But there were many mountains in the world at that time taller than Mt. Ararat....are we now required to assume that either:1)No one lived near them in biblical times, or 2) that 'Noah' was only one of many ark builders, or 3) ....and 4...and 5.

No biblical scholars seem to worry about where all that rain came from, or where all that water went AFTER the 'flood'. (If asked, they will no doubt add in suppositions that God, being all-powerful, simply created 'extra' water to drown everything, then made most of it disappear afterwards.)

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 11:17 AM

(I really don't know what they are supposed to promise female suicide bombers...perhaps that they will BE virgins in Paradise...*shrug*) Perhaps a 'few' do it simply for ummmm... altruistic motives.)

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 11:17 AM

Well, the Bible does refer to the 'waters above' and the 'waters below'. Scientists have discovered that there is an awful lot of water bound up in the rocks below us. How it got out is another matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 11:19 AM

A male virgin is as virgin as a female virgin, Dave MacKenzie. Surely they promise the same to the women?

Nah. Come to think on it, the females must be promised one true love. Just about as likely to happen. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 11:25 AM

Look up 'houri' on Wikipedia.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 11:27 AM

I gotta clarify.... none of what I said above proves or disproves anything relating to the ultimate 'truth' about whether there is or isn't a 'god'.... all I try to do is show stuff about fallacious and awkward reasoning and why one needs to be VERY careful about the details of what one believes, as it is easy to get locked into accepting totally incongruous & contradictory premises.

...but, that's how you get funding for strange museums...

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Stu
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 12:05 PM

"dynosaurs"

Shooting fish in a barrel.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 12:18 PM

What about the Fairies?

The Fairies are fallen angels lead astray by Lucifer when he started the War in Heaven. Sources seem to differ as to whether they were trapped on Earth when God closed the doors of Heaven and Hell while they were on the way from one to the other or whether they are not bad enough to go to Hell but not good enough to be allowed back into Heaven.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 12:43 PM

I know that God botherers complain when the likes of me have a laugh at their superstition, but this theme park?

I'd laugh all the more but as we see in all walks of life, instead of superstition being banished to a simpler age in the past, there are those who try to keep it relevant, by coercion and force if it pleases their aims to control others.

Anyway, don't mention fairies, you'll have Akenaton foaming at the mouth as usual......

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 12:57 PM

I think I saw a unicorn at Disney World theme park....between the talking rabbit and chattering duck, just next to the personable mouse...but maybe not, I was drinking a bit at the time.

It has been rain'n alot lately. Anyone have the plans of such an Arc? I do have a lot of surplus wood. How does one separate the cats from the dogs...and, no, I don't want to take the skeeters.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 01:06 PM

(sigh)

Given the fact that many other ancient civilizations besides the Judeo-Christians also have had legends about a great flood in ancient times...and that ALL of those legends describe various survivors who built rafts and boats of various sorts and rode out the floodwaters....

(but why do I even try?)

The error of the more fundamentalist Christians and Jews is that they cling literally to their own ONE parochial little story about it, and apparently live in blissful ignorance of a great many other cultural stories about the same global event...stories that make no mention whatsoever of Noah or his Ark, but which mention other survivors of the event.

Something clearly happened. There probably was a great inundation that affected much of the planet, and it was probably due to some major change in atmospheric conditions at the time, one which might have been triggered by a magnetic axis shift or a physical axis shift or a passing comet or other body or a major change in conditions on the sun which affected the Earth and the other planets.

Whatever it was, it has been remembered by a variety of ancient civilizations all over the planet. It probably happened a lot longer ago than the Christians think it did, and it probably involved a great many survivors in many different areas...NOT just Noah and his family, for heaven's sake!....and there were probably a lot of areas of higher ground where many animals and survivors escaped to, and then things got started up again after that as conditions stabilized and waters receded into the oceans.

But all the average fundamentalist Christian is familiar with is the one little parochial, locally-grown tribal story that he finds in his Bible...a story deriving from a small number of tribal people in one localized area...and he takes it literally and imagines that it is the last and only word on the matter??????????

(sigh)

Like I said above...why even try...??? It would be like telling someone in the 1500s about airplanes and space travel. No hope of getting them to listen to that, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 01:08 PM

The one thing which really was scary in that article, imo, is that they expect to create 900 jobs AND expect 1.6 million visitors per year! May their god bless and wake them up!:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 01:49 PM

Here are som additional weird theme parks...no shortage of them in the world. weirder still, is people go to them in numbers:

http://www.concierge.com/ideas/family/tours/501023



Weird theme parks

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 02:10 PM

And the fleas and the bedbugs and the ticks and.......

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: mousethief
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 02:22 PM

LH -- "Many"? Maybe four, and three of them from the eastern Mediterranean, so sharing can't be ruled out.

Any time some arkist (believer in the historicity of the ark story) starts trotting out "scientists have shown" it's a good bet that the "scientists" are arkists themselves and are twisting the data to fit the hypothesis.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 02:35 PM

So, Noah got all of these lions and donkeys and unicorns and pigs and chickens and dinosaurs and fairies and beetles and stuff on to the Ark ... right?

But what I want to know is, who saved the plants ... and how?

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 03:03 PM

Who saved the happy plants...so we could smoke 'em?

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 03:10 PM

""the ark was well able to house the original kinds that gave rise to the numerous varieties later.it was something like the length of a football pitch with 3 decks.
i understand that of the huge dynosaurs ;they begin much smaller and keep growing.no need to imagine huge leviathans thundering about the decks.""

1) With the exception of the saurians (crocodiles and alligators), land dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago, roughly 61 million years before the first human evolved.

That must have given Noah a bit of a headache, lacking time travel technology.

2) There are more separate species of insect than there are individual humans on this planet, which kind of makes the concept of transporting just two of each on one vessel extremely iffy.

Then you have to make space for two members of each animal species. Even being able to ignore the dinosaurs, it just ain't gonna work.

So, with the story exposed as the allegory which it really was, in comes the old faithful "God done it 'cos he's all powerful".

Naah!! It's no more a collection of facts than Aesop's talking animals, and constructed for exactly the same purpose.

If those who composed the Old Testament could see the effect on today's Creationist Nutjobs, they wouldn't stop laughing for all eternity.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: mousethief
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 04:29 PM

I want to know where they kept the termites, carpenter ants, and teredos.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 05:01 PM

Not to mention the Death Watch beetles and Woodpeckers.

I said not to mention..............!

Mayday, Mayday!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 05:32 PM

"I want to know where they kept the termites, carpenter ants, and teredos".

In the non wooden parts of the great ship, or course....what da ya got for brains.

A Teredo would not be on the ships router list, 'cause they did'nt have pooters then".

:)

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 05:32 PM

No, Mousethief, the North American Indians also have beliefs that came down to them from ancient times about a continent-wide inundation in those ancient times, due to longterm torrential rains. I've heard some of their medicine people discussing it in meetings. They had this idea long before they encountered any Christians with Bible stories.

Furthermore, there are Asian legends about the same time of thing, again, not sourced from people in the Middle East. I think it was a planetary event, but I do not think "God" did it. And I think it probably happened a lot longer ago than the Bible would appear to indicate.

It would have been natural for people in each localized geographical area to tell survival tales about the event involving strictly their own people, and that's what the tribal peoples in the Middle East did, just the same as the tribal peoples elsewhere. They "saw" as far as their own cultural horizon and no farther. Their cultural horizon was very limited. With the typical self-absorption of most people, the ancient Israelites decided that their particular symbolic survivor story (Noah and his Ark) was the ONLY survivor story...just like they decided that their God was the only God! Such parochial and self-serving notions are typical of people's shortsightedness, and they are exactly what has led to ignorance, zenophobia, and war between tribes and nations since time immemorial. People usually just don't look far enough, that's all. They think it's all THEIR story, and it isn't.

The Noah story is clearly allegorical. It would have been utterly impossible for one man and his family to gather up ALL the present day animal species on their planet in their time, the plant species, and the other vulnerable lifeforms on the planet, for gosh sakes! ;-) And anyone can see that with but a moment's reflection. Think how hard it would be to do it even now, with all our modern transportation devices!

Kangaroos aren't found in the Middle East, and they weren't found there in Noah's time either. So how the heck could he have saved the kangaroos? The polar bears? The penguins? The koala bears? the lemurs? The elks? The ocelots? The prickly pears? The maple trees? And on, and on, and on....sheesh! It's incredible the stuff people will accept just because some priest or other authority figure told them to. And it happens generation after generation.

Basically it comes down to three things:

1. People tend to believe what they are told to believe when they're young and impressionable.

and...

2. People tend to believe what they want to believe and go ON believing it, no matter what.

and...

3. They regard anyone who challenges those beliefs with considerable hostility! (as well as contempt and derision)

And there's usually not a darned thing anyone can do to change the way they feel about it...except to slowly and grudgingly replace one set of hallowed authority figures (the Church)...with a new set of hallowed authority figures (the scientific community).

And that's more or less what's been happening in the last 500 years...a bit at a time.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 05:55 PM

Great Flood legends from around the world...over 500 of them!

I think these legends all arose out of one...or several...ancient catastrophic events, and it probably happened many thousands of years ago, long before the time fixed upon by Bible scholars who accept the Christian traditional viewpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 07:03 PM

"I think it was a planetary event..." why? How could that be when considering a fairly sudden happening? Even the end of an ice age and melting of glaciers would take many years and only raise total sea level a couple of feet.


One possible explanation for the biblical flood which there is evidence for in the area the Bible is concerned with.

Sure...there's disagreement over whether it was **ENORMOUS** enough...but maybe it was locally big enough to whoever started the legend.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 10:00 PM

I said "I think", Bill. I was merely expressing a hypothetical opinion, that's all. I didn't say "I know". The link you provided is one interesting possibility.

Many of the flood legends seem to be based on a flood caused by a lengthy period of extraordinary rainfall. It might have been local. Or it might have been continental. Or it might have been planetary. Whatever it might have been, I think that local people everywhere who experienced would have given it an explanation based on their own necessarily limited view of what happened. In other words, they'd have told their story, and made themselves the primary participants, heroes, and victims, wouldn't they? ;-) That's what people do. That's why your news tells you how many Americans died this month in Afghanistan, but not how many Afghans.

Hence, the Israelites spoke of Noah and his family, and the people in other places spoke of someone else. Because our civilization got dominated by a religion that followed in the tradition of Noah, we get to hear about Noah. We do not get to hear about similar people (survivors) in a great variety of other Great Flood legends out of ancient times.

One might as well look into all of it, right? Instead of talking about just one religious tradition's view of it...namely, the Judeo-Christian-Muslim tradition.

But that is something most Christians aren't willing to do.....and never even thought of doing, because they think their story is the only one.

It isn't.

As for legends, I think they usually arise out of some real event...but the story gets both simplified and exaggerated as time goes by, and it often gets put into terms that suit someone's political purposes at the time. People usually can't resist improving on a good story, after all, can they? ;-)

If there was a planetwide catastrophe in our own near future which truly wiped out advanced civilization as we know it...but left scattered survivors across the globe, survivors who then gradually got civilization going again bit by bit....how much do you think the legends about it 1,000 or 5,000 years later would resemble the reality of it? Not very closely, I would bet. But I'm sure it would be a very dramatic story, and that countless generations of future kids would have it told to them.

And future skeptics would laugh at it too, and dismiss it out of hand, because they would think they know better than that! ;-D I'd bet money on that, for all the good it would do me....you've always got believers and skeptics...and then you have those like me, who like to ask questions and consider the various possibilities, knowing that there's no way yet to be absolutely certain one way or the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 10:11 PM

I am curious. If it flooding were global, where would all the water come from? Raid just recycles existing water. Could a possibly be melting of land based ice. If the ice is already in the eater, I suspect it would have little new impact on water levels? just wondering.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 10:42 PM

"I said "I think", Bill. I was merely expressing a hypothetical opinion, that's all."

Hmm..well, "I think that...xxx" usually implies something more than noting a hypothesis...it suggests one tentatively accepts a hypothesis, thus inviting contrary views ...etc. So I provided mine.
Much of the rest of your analysis IS a likely scenario, noting how local stories get passed on and added to.

I suppose it is a matter of 'style', but if you sound like a 'believer', someone's gonna pounce.....no matter the subject. :>)

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 10:54 PM

I don't necessarily believe anything in particular about it, Bill, but I consider it reasonably probable that all those legends of a Great Flood are based on some kind of large catastrophe...or a series of them. It's just a subject I find interesting, that's all.

I don't get how the heck anyone in any present day religion can possibly believe that some patriarch called Noah built a boat capable of holding two of every species on Earth! Yikes! Or how he would have gone about gathering a healthy breeding pair of every single living species on Earth either! Double yikes!!!!

I doubt that even Michael Moore or James Cameron could pull off such a daunting project... ;-) Hell, it would even give William Shatner pause.

If people believe stuff like that, it's just because it has never even once occurred to them to question it....or they're afraid to, because it would call their entire view of life into question.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 11:00 PM

Bill, your bit about "I think" reminds me of a phrase my old sales manager came up with when asking us for our sales projections. We'd go down our lists of clients one by one, tell him how much we thought we'd be able to sell them in radio advertising and he'd get on us about just how sure we were of each claim. He'd say, "Is that for sure?" One of us would, "Yeah, maybe?!" He'd say, "Okay, that's a Possible-for-Sure-Maybe!"

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,erbert
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 11:53 PM

As any unemployable guitar player idly channel-hopping day time satellite TV documentaries
should know..

..one recent theory of a sudden world wide ancient mega flood event
posits the idea of a tremendously huge sheet of Arctic Glacial ice breaking off
and causing such a cataclysmic tsunami
that all key civilizations from the mediteranean [overflowing and engulfing the Black sea hinterlands]
to the coast of India and beyond , were devasted within mere hours... or something like that...???

Oh and that's when Atlantis sunk as well..
but that's another speculative documentary..
and I wasn't really paying attention as I was too busy looking through the front room curtains
watching the police car & ambulance outside the junkie flats across the road...

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: mousethief
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 12:14 AM

Gee, floods in more than one part of the world. What a surprise. Surely this proves that there was a worldwide flood. Also that there was a lost continent named Atlantis.

Oh wait, I see erbert already got that one.

I just think of there were a single world-wide flood event, there might be some indication of it in something. Rock formations. Fossils. Something.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: LadyJean
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 12:29 AM

The section of Kentucky where this is going on went from being Appalachia to being a suburb of Cincinnatti in 20 years. That's a lot of change for people.

It means the area is more prosperous. People have better jobs. Programs were set up in the sixties to help them prepare for those jobs. But most of the locals knowledge is practical. The big bang theory and Darwinian evolution may be science, but they are not really practical.

When the world changes as rapidly as ours does, it's natural for people to need to bellieve in something. I think this explains the rise of fundamentalism in so many religious communities today.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,erbert
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 12:39 AM

errmmm.....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1768109.stm ????

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: kendall
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 07:47 AM

Religion has two enemies: Logic and reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 08:35 AM

There is clearly no shortage of "a belief in a God" worldwide (much to the dismay of non believers).

The biggest enemy of religion is (mans) organized religion itself. What disbelievers call a lack of "reason and logic"...in a God belief...is a minor factor (if one at all) amongst believers. This seems to be a "frequent frustration" amongst some non believers (though some claim the contrary).

It's a "God belief puzzle" that keeps on giving.
:)

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 09:26 AM

As I've said before, is religion compatible with a belief in God?

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 09:50 AM

"Religion" may or may not include a belief in God, a god, or a variety of gods.

"Religion" may have nothing to do with God, a god, or many gods, but may instead have to do with moral codes and philosophical outlooks and ideas about health and proper (or wise) conduct.

Buddhism is thought of as a religion. It does not posit a god.

Taoism is a bit like a religion, but it's really a naturalistic philosophy of harmonious living and conduct. It does not posit a god.

Hinduism at the primitive level posits many gods and other spiritual beings...but at the more advanced level it posits something indefinable which cannot be described as a god at all...and it is clear at the more advanced level of Hinduism that the many gods and goddesses featured in primitive Hinduism are merely symbols or archetypes of various aspects of reality, and are not to be taken literally, but allegorically.

The North American Indian religions did not posit a god, but they did use the term "Great Spirit" to label the spirit that they felt inhabited all existence and every living thing. I don't think that's a god...it's an underlying principle.

People should look a bit deeper into all this stuff before tossing out glib assumptions which only skate around on the surface of it, but never look any further.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 10:22 AM

" ... the many gods and goddesses featured in primitive Hinduism are merely symbols or archetypes of various aspects of reality ... "

Isn't this also true of Christianity with its: God the father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost (and the Virgin Mary if you're a Catholic?).

By the way, what is the 'Holy Ghost' supposed to be? This puzzled me as a child: God was an old man and Jesus was younger and had a white robe, a beard and long hair ... but the HG was just a vague blur. In fact it is still is a vague blur to me as an adult. I tried looking it up but didn't understand the answer (but then perhaps the 'answer' was really just a lot of hand waving!?).

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 10:40 AM

well,has,nt this thread taken off.i wonder if it,s just because someone,s posted who happens to believe the bible..where do i start?
not that i can answer every question and challenge but i can recommend a site that probably covers most-but the hallowed "scientific community"would not entertain answers that threaten their own position!

first to don,whom i very much like despite rubbishing my beliefs.you know very well i dont believe in evolutionism and millenia of uniformitarian change-but at least you have,nt objected to me singing"too much monkey business"-as far as i know!

bill-i am sure there were no suicide bombers on the ark!
"making the evidence fit"can be laid at evolutionists doors also and is assertion proving nothing-except you know how to play to the crowd.
not sure why you are sure there were higher mountains previously but i think that is not entirely relevant.genesis does say every mountain was covered but the waters were in recession when the ark rested in the ararat region.
all that water?the text does mention the "fountains of the great deep"breaking forth.the topology of the earth was likely changed after such earth breaking catastrophe.

little hawk-i am aware of other flood stories.as you concede;they tend to confirm the event,though not the details.

mousethief-i cant be technical myself but i understand the creationist position is that most of the fossils come from the flood,formed by rapid burial,which is also an explanation of why all the intermediate fossils that darwin expected to be unearthed are still scarce.

well,ithink thats enough to get blasted for!.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 10:57 AM

every fossil is an intermediate one

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 11:06 AM

"People should look a bit deeper into all this stuff before tossing out glib assumptions which only skate around on the surface of it, but never look any further".

I suspect most know of what you post LH,(the wide scope of world religions, now and in the past), as this topic has been beaten to death by a few in the many previous threads. Most of it is repetition anyway.

My observation is most people here "mostly" tend to refer to Christianity, and related religions...which seem to make most of the news in the western world.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 11:10 AM

'Holy Ghost'
I believe RCs now call this the Holy Spirit....unless I missed something in church as a child. (But, I believe Anglicans and some other churches still use the term). Possibly because children were frightened by ghosts? :)

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 11:13 AM

"every fossil is an intermediate one"

An interesting perspective. Maybe so. I am not sure.

Does that include both theist and atheist fossils, or only one of them?
:)

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Stu
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 11:27 AM

"which is also an explanation of why all the intermediate fossils that darwin expected to be unearthed are still scarce."

They're not scarce at all - plenty of transitional fossils if you know where to look.

This is a comma: ,

This is an apostrophe: '

This is a capital letter: I

This is an evil fantasy: Creationism

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 12:28 PM

Pete...
"..making the evidence fit"can be laid at evolutionists doors also"

No, it cannot...honest, competent scientists do not do this. All scientists like to be the ones to discover a nice 'new' bit of data and construct a theory which brings them recognition and status....but MOST of them are willing to change when MORE 'new' data is uncovered. A little reading will show you which ones do and which do not, and allow you to follow the advance of honest science.
   This is in stark contrast to the model you and other devoted 'believers' present, where 'new scientific data' is merely dismissed or re-interpreted to 'fit' the model you already believe ...based on one of many translations of arbitrarily selected ancient manuscripts.
The idea that "·.most of the fossils come from the flood,formed by rapid burial,..." is one perfect example of that. If you understand anything about science, you will realize it-just-doesn't-work-that-way. Read about The Burgess Shale, a deposit of fossils high in the Canadian Rockies which are older and stranger than anything else on Earth...THEN tell me again how they were just deposited "by the flood".

You say "...not sure why you are sure there were higher mountains previously but i think that is not entirely relevant.genesis does say every mountain was covered but the waters were in recession ..."

It is relevant because IF every mountain was covered, it indicates there was enough water to be 30,000 ft. deep all over the Earth. IF every mountain was NOT covered, then many people and animals would have had places of refuge. Ararat is 12,872 ft....Mt. Everest is 29,000 ft....more than double. Calculate how much extra water would be involved.
".. the "fountains of the great deep" breaking forth. is nothing but a flowery phrase...neither you nor anyone else can explain what that might mean...except by shrugging and saying "God can do anything he pleases.."

It's all very well to look at the vast, amazing universe and say, "There must be a Supreme Being who started all this" and decided how it would all work. No one can disprove it...but it's quite another thing to dispute known, obvious facts discovered by science because some writer of some old manuscript made some vague remark about "the "fountains of the great deep" breaking forth."
   Think about who SAYS that these old documents were 'inspired by God'!! If **I** wanted to start a religion and/or direct one, wouldn't *I* claim that my visions came directly from "on high"?

Pete... it is not my purpose to disprove your belief in God, or to suggest that there are not many important and valuable lessons to be found in the Bible. All *I* wish to do is suggest that 'faith' does NOT have to be so rigid as to deny obvious facts about how the world works...which may well be how God intended for it to work. If you are correct about God's gifts to us, one of them was 'free will' and the intelligence to use it to explore and learn and change as we learn more. I do not think a 'God' would expect his creations to blindly accept ONE version of religion written by our fallible ancestors thousands of years ago and carelessly translated by other fallible scribes who had political & cultural motives.

   There ARE many honest, believing Christians who can reconcile their faith with the amazing things science is finding everyday....

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 12:41 PM

kat... *grin*..."your bit about "I think" reminds me of a phrase my old sales manager came up with when asking us for our sales projections..."

Yep... I worked briefly in a software company where we were asked annually to 'project' what we would 'accomplish' in the next year. It was a given that the 'benchmarks' and 'targets' were little more than psychological carrot hanging in front of us donkeys....but no one ever admitted this out loud.
I see the point in "positive thinking", but I found I simply could not work in a business where artificial goals were constantly created, like 'the Emperor's new clothes' and treated as reasonable plans, when EVERYONE knew that almost all target goals slipped.

Unfortunately, in business, politics....and religion... much of the structure seems to depend on self-deception in order to have the will to struggle on in the face of the obvious impracticability of much of it. (Like the mortgage crisis happened in business)

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 02:26 PM

Bill said "How could that be when considering a fairly sudden happening? Even the end of an ice age and melting of glaciers would take many years and only raise total sea level a couple of feet." It could be successfully argued, and this based on geological study, that such an increase could easily have caused a build up of pressure and weakening of land structure between two bodies of water of differing volume, or between a large body of water and a large basin, so that the natural dam structure might breach and cause a massive flooding of the adjacent area.
Additionally, the great cataclysm that destroyed most of the Mycenean culture in ancient times, probably a huge event of volcanic origin, caused massive flooding throughout the Mediterranean, and is used by believers in the existance and destruction of Atlantis as a possible cause.
Such events, although extremely rare, could easily have embedded themselves in the oral history of many cultures, and become embroidered with unlikely detail and principle players over the thousands of years since their occurence.
So, I believe Little Hawk is right in saying there may very well have been a great flood event that is the root of the ark story. The balance of the story, with Ararat, animals by twos, God's blueprint for the ark, was invented as a means of explaining that event, and using it to support the storyteller's agenda. In that way, nothing has really changed, has it?

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: kendall
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 03:00 PM

What Ark? The coffee house in Ann Arbor? I know that one is real because I performed there.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 04:00 PM

To quote, "Creationism is not only bad science, it's bad theology".

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 04:13 PM

I have no problem with Creationism as a philosophy, but since there is no actual scientific evidence for it, it does not belong in a science class. I disagree that it is bad theology, unless one is stuck on literal interpretations.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 04:16 PM

bill-i read articles on burgess shale.not quite laymans reading and i missed what your point was i,m sorry to say.
however i did find it simpler on creation.com,which also noted that[some?]scientists have done an about face,now conceding that the soft body parts were fossilized rapidly.
as you may guess i,m no scientist,but i know a few who are,and dont accept evolutionism.they seem generally more willing to debate the issues than evolutionists are on equal terms-unless you know otherwise.
thanks for mountain statistics.i take you point,though not your conclusion.
i am quite aware that many christians do accept evolutionism but have to compromise the bible to do so IMO.That of course is a theological discussion which i would presume you have little interest in

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 04:21 PM

if believing the bible is bad theology,i stand guilty as charged-not to mention not a few famous scientists in history!.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 04:31 PM

"All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all; yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed, for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them".

The Westminster Confession of Faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 04:33 PM

Noah's ark near main entrance

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 04:43 PM

'Evolutionism'?

Is that a new word you dreamed up, all by yourself, unaided 'GUEST, pete from seven stars link'?

Careful! Reading a book, other than 'A Simple, Literal-Minded Idiot's Guide to the Bible', could be the next step on the slippery slope to understanding the world around you ... and damnation!!!!

" ... i did find it simpler on creation.com,which also noted that[some?]scientists have done an about face,now conceding that the soft body parts were fossilized rapidly."

I trust you'll be following the above quote up with a full set of relevant references from the current paleaontological literature? When can we expect you to post them?

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: mousethief
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 06:24 PM

[b]every fossil is an intermediate one [/b]

Reminds me of a joke. To a creationist, of course, between every two fossils thought to be in evolutionary succession is an inexplicable "gap". Hence: A fossil is found that is intermediate to two fossils believed to be in an evolutionary line. Scientist headline: "Intermediary Fossil Found." Creationist headline: "Two New Gaps Found."

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 07:51 PM

as you may guess i,m no scientist,but i know a few who are
Not good enough, I'm afraid. Relatively few people are scientists-by-employment, but you can still take a scientific approach to thinking about problems. If you believe something - anything at all actually - ask yourself why. Is it based on measurements, which you can either repeat or cross check with other people who have made similar measurements, or is it based on what someone has said. If its the latter, it's no good as science, whether it is by your local guru or Richard Dawkins.

I don't believe everything can be answered by science even in principle, by the way, but the "I'm no X" line is no justification for failing to try, whether X is 'scientist', 'historian', 'artist' or anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 04:10 AM

I've just re-read what I wrote above and see that I followed If you believe something ... ask yourself why with I don't believe everything can be answered by science even in principle. So I suppose I am duty bound to explain why I believe that! To cut a very long story short, Hilbert, Gödel, Mandelbrot and in a slightly different way computational theory's NP-complete and even Riemann's geometry all show limitations of what is possible in mathematics. Not stuff we don't know: stuff whose unknowability is woven in the fabric of mathematics itself. And since mathematics is at the heart of science, there is by implication equivalent limits to science. However, this may not be significant. To use an analogy: think of the real world as a table and mathematics as a table-cloth. Even though the table cloth has edges it could still be big enough to cover the table. Alternatively it can fail to cover it to a greater or lesser extent. Whether the 'mathematical tablecloth' is big enough to cover the table that is the 'real world' is not something I know, and may only be knowable via an example where it does not. The chaotic behaviour of things like waterflow, though, make me suspect the table cloth is too small.

So that's why I think there are limits to science. But that does not deny the usefulness of science or the value of taking a scientific approach to life in general. Moreover, I also think that a Christian is under a specific obligation to do so. Mark says that when Christ was asked what was the greatest commandment he said "you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind and with all you strength". Now, this is almost, but not quite, a quotation from Deuteronomy: the importance is that Christ adds in the specific instruction to use 'all your mind' which was not in the Old Testament. So it seems to me that for a Christian to deliberately decline to use whatever mental abilities they have to the best of their abilities is to deliberately avoid following what has been identified as a key part of the greatest commandment. And if that doesn't constitute sinful behaviour, I don't know what does.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 07:59 AM

Feed a cold, starve a fever, argue with no true believer.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 11:21 AM

just because i confess my limitations does not mean i do nil reading on the subject.granted much of that is from a creationist perspective-though not exclusively so.i suspect most evolutionists dont read creationist scientists much either,though i have read some sites that do; in an attempt to discredit them.
i dont know if i thought up the word or read it,but seems to be the opposite of "creationism"and therefore a valid use.

i like to think,kendal,that i,m not arguing but giving as much reason as i am able for my position,and i hope respectfully.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Rumncoke
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 11:26 AM

It wasn't two of everything - of the 'clean' beasts it was seven.

Read the book - two of some, but seven of others.

Not that I believe the interpretion is anything but a myth, but to argue well it is best to know what you're arguing about.

Anne Croucher

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 11:32 AM

ref requested. shimrod
journal of the geological society165(1):307-318 jan2008.
i,m sure if you try,you can find something else to mock,bless you.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Stu
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 11:57 AM

"creationist scientists"

An oxymoron, surely?

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Stu
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 12:20 PM

Pete - I'm not sure why you're using Gabbott et al's paper as a supporting argument for a flood. The taphonomy of the Burgess Shale (as with many lagerstatten) are often the subject of constant revisions and I cannot see how the rapid burial of these organisms in underwater debris flows is evidence for a flood.

From creation.com:

"To preserve such features, it is obvious that the creature needs to be buried quickly. Not just that, but the enclosing sediment needs to harden fairly quickly. If it stayed soft and unconsolidated for years, the fact that oxygen, moisture and bacteria could easily access the carcass means that one would very quickly have a disintegrated, stinking mess. To try to imitate how such features as scales and fins can possibly be preserved, the best experimental analogy would be to bury a fish rapidly in wet cement!"

This is ignorant, utterly wrong and a crass generalisation. Even someone with the most basic palaeontological knowledge understands that fossilisation depends on innumerable variables, and no two formations will ever be the same. Also, to suggest the detail present in all fossils is the result of rapid burial is ludicrous - ever heard of dessication?

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 12:30 PM

I believe there was a flood alright, but it didn't cover the whole world. There are so many things we like to believe that just didn't happen.
The gun fight at the OK corral didn't happen there either.

Columbus was not the first white man to find America, and, he never set foot on the American continent either.

Did Davey Crockett kill a Bear when he was three? ridiculous. He wasn't born on a mountain top either.

Steven Foster was homeless when he wrote My Old Kentucky Home.

Give me ambiguity or something else.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 01:25 PM

OuCh! kendall, how dare you attack the sacred Davy Crockett story! Do you realize what you are doing in questioning such things??? The happiness of uncounted children depends upon having faith in Davy's ability to slay grizzly b'ars at the age of 3, not to mention his mother's uncanny ability to give birth on the topmost point of a mountain in Tenessee. These things were ordained by the elders of yore, they were further endorsed by Disney, and they should NEVER be doubted for a moment!

Repent of your sins and recant, brother! (or face eternal damnation)

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 01:42 PM

Ah, Davy Crockett. He was still "young" when he died at the Alamo at the age of c48!

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 02:03 PM

Passion Pit of Palin...Chaney's Undisclosed Location...spot on, Donuel!!

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 03:17 PM

Just as a point of interest, here's an article that summarizes the Biblical account of Noah's Ark:

Noah and the Ark

That should provide some more good argument fodder. ;-)

It's interesting that it says that Noah was instructed to take aboard seven of every "clean" animal, but only two of every "unclean" animal. ??? Which animals were considered clean? I assume that pigs and birds, for example, were considered unclean? But goats and cows were clean? What about dogs, cats, mice, snakes, etc?

So where would kangaroos or polar bears or racoons fall in that system? And how would Noah have sourced those kangaroos or polar bears or racoons, either two or seven of each? Were kangaroos, polar bears, and racoons common in Noah's part of the globe at that time? I don't think so! There is no mention of them in any writings of the ancient Israelites.

Ah, yes....much there for the literal Bible reader to ponder, isn't there? If he is willing to...

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 03:32 PM

Whoo-Wee! Here's another page explaining the traditional Bible story about Noah and the Ark, and this one's really dramatic:

Read all about it! Enjoy....


One has to wonder how it could ever be that there was just ONE man on the entire face of the globe who was pleasing to God? God must have been very, very demanding of people to be that particular. Also, the fact that Noah was pleasing to God seems to have made his entire family also pleasing to God simply by default....all his relatives. How could that be? One gets the impression that the only person who actually mattered in that kind of a social system was the ruling patriarch of the family...and if he was acceptable to God, by golly, then all his family members were too. Or were they just his possessions? His chattels?

To use a common expression, I thank God that we (in most places) do NOT live under such a dominant patriarchal order at the present time. It would be truly awful.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 03:43 PM

"...his mother's uncanny ability to give birth on the topmost point of a mountain in Tenessee." LH

That's where you are assuming too much, Little Hawk. Crocket's mother *wasn't* on the mountaintop but Davy, being ever the remarkable child, *was*. I don't understand why that concept is so hard to grasp.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 03:49 PM

Aha!!! You may be right, Ebbie. I have to give that some thought.

The other thing that people probably don't realize is that the bear Davy "kilt" when he was only three was also only three...three days old, that is! That's why he was able to kill that little bear. Even so, it shows remarkable initiative for a three-year-old to kill a bear at any age and it was touch and go for a bit there, so no reason not to put Davy up on the pedestal where he rightly belongs.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 03:56 PM

"I believe there was a flood alright, but it didn't cover the whole world."- Captain Morse

Consider that this may have happened 12,000 years BC. What constituted "the World" at that time? In Western tradition at least, the World was chiefly the area of the Mediterranean, and some river valleys extending beyond into the interior, which could well have been inundated.
This web site states the case for a massive Mediterranean in-flooding in brief and clear terms.
No, I am not making an argument for Noah or the Ark or the Bible, but simply stating that many myth stories grew out of the cultural recollection of critical events.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 04:28 PM

LH, don't get me started, there were and are no Grizzly Bears in Tennessee.

Davey was 50 when he snuffed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: kendall
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 04:33 PM

And furthermore, black eyes peas are not peas at all. They are beans. So there.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 04:54 PM

kendall, you are definitely an apostate of the most unspeakable sort, and I shudder to think what ghastly fate awaits you in the hereafter. ;-)

LEJ - Excellent reference! That may indeed be the source of the Great Flood story that eventually got re-percolated through various ancient cultures, got picked up and adapted by the Isrealites into their own traditions, and finally written down as the story that appears in the Bible.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 04:57 PM

Black Eyed Susie, though, was she a pea or a bean, clean or unclean, born on top of a grizzly bear in Tenessee, or inundated in 12000BC?

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 08:35 PM

So, Davy Crockett was born at the age of 48 on top of Mount Arrarat in Tennessee, having already killed a bear......

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 09:41 PM

LH, that was one of the Bible Stories for Children offered at that website! Chilling!

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 09:46 PM

100

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 05:32 AM

Yeah, pretty scary isn't it, Kat? I remember encountering similarly bizarre nonsense in my first excursion to Sunday school when I was very young. My mother sent me there in her usual pathetic concern to do what "everyone else" was doing and thereby not offend anyone...even though my family was already atheistic to all intents and purposes...not officially, mind you, we just were, that's all.

I'd already read some stuff at home about the dinosaurs, the past geological ages of the Earth, evolution, and a whole lot of other basic science stuff...so I was shocked and downright horrified at what they were telling me in that Sunday school class with the various Bible stories.

I came home afterward and complained loud and long about it, and my mother never sent me back. That was a wise decision on her part, because a skeptic like me would have created no end of trouble in that Sunday school...and that would have led to just the kind of social embarrassments my mother was so desperate to avoid, and then she would have pulled me out of there anyway. ;-)

I just naturally tend to question the bland assumptions and rules of any smug and established authority system whether it be...

1. religious
2. governmental
3. scientific
4. scholastic
5. medical
6. military
7. and whatever else ya got! ;-)

The fact is, I distrust the lockstep thinking of people in large groups...specially when they lay down a whole bunch of rules for their followers to obey.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 06:17 AM

Thanks for providing the reference, 'pete from seven stars link'. But so what? There must have been millions of floods/inundations in the history of the Earth! Besides the Burgess Shale creatures were marine ones - and so were underwater. Whatever buried them was the 'reverse' of a flood! We have the Burgess Shale fossils as a result of blind chance (which I believe really drives the Universe - not 'God'). They represent a rare event which has added to our knowledge but revealed gaps in that knowledge (c'est la vie!).

What religious fundamentalists fail to understand is that Science is not a dogma like Religion (as interpreted by fundamentalists). An individual scientist, at some particular point in time, may defend his/her position vigorously but that point of view may subsequently be overthrown by further evidence. What fundamentalists do is to concentrate on the gaps and to ignore the Big Picture. Nevertheless, to point at a gap and shout: "Ah, ha! That gap 'proves' that the Bible is right!" is utterly ludicrous and has no intellectual credibility whatsoever!

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 10:58 AM

jack-someone else originally linked burgess as evidence for evolutionism.i read,but didnt get it, so i read about it on creation.com and posted a little info, which i was challenged to provide ref for.
no,i dont know what dessication is.nor could i find it in the oxford english ref dictionary.
i respect you for at least reading some of the creation site.

shimrod-certainly science is not dogma,but people come to it with presuppositions.with most evolutionists IMO that equals dogma , that to quote an evolutionist will not"let a divine foot in the door

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 11:00 AM

There were no doubt many great inundations in the past history of the Earth. Whole continents have moved about the globe through continental drift, and huge areas of present continents were once covered in water. Much of what is now North America was once covered by ocean. Much of what is now under the oceans was probably once dry land, including the Mediterranean Basin.

But in terms of the Bible story, and many other "great" flood legends from around the world (over 500 of them), the only great floods that would be relevant to the story would be those that occurred during human habitation of the planet. Those would be the floods that got remembered and put into myths, legends, and stories about the past.

And there were probably several of those.

It seems doubtful that any one of them would have inundated ALL the land on the planet. More likely, certain geographical areas were inundated at one time or another, and other areas escaped inundation.

The Bible story is probably based on earlier legends that preceded it, and those earlier legends probably stemmed, as most legends do, from some sort of real event.

The Bible is full of stories that are repeated from earlier religious traditions such as Egyptian traditions. The idea of the "virgin birth", for example, had already appeared in a number of earlier traditions before the Christians ever came up with it, but most Christians don't know that...because their churches don't tell them! Heck, even most of the people running the churches probably don't know it, because they've spent their whole lives studying only one religious record....the Christian one!

Thus is a form of ignorance guaranteed to be repeated ad infinitum, merely by ignoring all other cultural sources except one's own. That's how people stay insular, prejudiced, and quite certain that their way is the only right way.

Muslims do that too. So do orthodox Jews. So do people in most other religions. "Don't tell me what I don't want to know" seems to be the standard reaction of people in most religions....and that's how they stay ignorant.

And this is true of people in many other fields of life besides religion too, by the way. ;-) It's one of the most common and troubling facets of human nature...the desire to remain comfortably shielded by the familiar, and to shut out the unfamiliar.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 11:13 AM

"Dessication" means the process of drying out. When something has dried out completely it is dessicated.

You are quite right, pete from seven stars, that scientifically-minded people also come to a subject with presuppositions. Definitely! And so do politically-minded people. And culturally-minded people. Everyone comes to a subject they are interested in with a whole set of presuppositions, often with a whole set of rather strong prejudices, often with emotional prejudices of various sorts....and all of those pre-established attitudes WILL influence and often compromise their objectivity.

I've been pointing that out on this forum since the first rooster crowed here (so to speak). ;-) When I do point it out, I am greeted by howls of outrage from various people who insist that, no, THEY are completely objective...it's just the people who disagree with them who aren't!

Ha! ;-D I laugh.

I am skeptical of the naivete and prejudices of many religious people. I am also skeptical of the naivete and prejudices of many anti-religious people. They are both inclined to make sweeping and often very false assumptions about the motivations, beliefs, and intelligence of people on the other side of the debate.

I suggest that both religious people and anti-religious people and everyone else out there have the humility to admit that:

1. they don't know it all
2. they might be wrong about something
3. there is more yet to learn
4. and the other guy might be right about something

Then there would be the possibility of real communication. Growth. Change.

Without such humility there's nothing but a desolate and useless repetition of opposing views that are petrified as if locked in stone.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 11:15 AM

A Brief History of the Unicorn:
Unicorn history, maybe a translation error?

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 12:27 PM

"shimrod-certainly science is not dogma,but people come to it with presuppositions.with most evolutionists IMO that equals dogma , that to quote an evolutionist will not"let a divine foot in the door ... "

Yes, in some cases that may be true. But I was introduced to Religion at a very early age, and to a scientific way of thinking much later in life. I've been thinking about Religion a lot lately and trying to remember what the child that I was then thought about it. It's very hard to put myself back into that child's shoes but I now believe that, essentially, he humoured the adults who were trying to teach/indoctrinate him. In 'the core of his being' he believed that all of the stories, prayers, hymns etc. had nothing to do with him and were irrelevant to his life. To be very honest I didn't understand most of what I was taught. I suppose that I assumed that the lack of understanding was some failure of intelligence on my part - but now realise that a lot of it was because the material didn't make much sense.

So, perhaps I am unwilling to "let a divine foot in the door" because I've never really believed in the divine.

I should say, though, that I'm perfectly happy for you to believe in anything you want and I certainly don't want to suppress Religion (even if I was in a position to do so). But what I do object to, and am prepared to fight against if necessary, is any form of religious fundamentalism - because I believe it to be a danger to us all. I'm pretty certain that fundamentalists would try and force me to accept their ludicrous beliefs and abandon my belief in the centrality of science and the scientific method. Let's make no mistake about it: creationism is a central, anti-scientific, fundamentalist position.

If religious fundamentalists want me to take their beliefs seriously they're going to have to come up with something better than picking random quotes from the Bible and elevating them to 'Divine Truth' and jeering every time they think they've found a 'gap' in current scientific knowledge. No wonder some scientists won't let "a divine foot in the door"!

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 12:53 PM

....charging in again where most Philosophers fear to tread -- ☺


"You are quite right, pete from seven stars, that scientifically-minded people also come to a subject with presuppositions. Definitely! "

That is a crude generalization, making it a distortion of what actually happens when serious **science** is done. The whole point of the scientific method IS that the premises one starts with are hypotheses, and based on the best data available. The "presuppositions" ARE that the scentific method, done properly, will tend to lead us closer to truth and fact, while avoiding emotionally based guesses!

OF COURSE every enquiry into a subject MUST have a starting point, but lumping "scientifically-minded people" in with all those who begin with fables, old-wives tales, religious dogma and politically inspired wishful thinking simply clouds the issue!

It seems sometimes that I have spent a lot of my life struggling against attempts to explain life & the universe with fuzzy generalizations. Most need qualifications and explications and disclaimers in order to be useful..... "Oh, everyone does THAT!" is seldom helpful. Even if MOST do that, the distinction needs to be made.

"Strive for simplicity, but learn to mistrust it."
    ..Alfred North Whitehead

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: kendall
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 12:55 PM

I'm a Deist. That's the only thing that makes sense to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 02:48 PM

You're in good company Kendall. George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, among others.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 03:02 PM

I wasn't talking about science, Bill. I was talking about human nature. Scientists, like other people, ARE human, and they are subject to the same foibles and weaknesses AS other people, regardless of the basic rationality and objectivity of the scientific method.

These general statements I make are generally about the subject that interests me most...human nature. The annals of science are full of the history of a science community mostly holding stubbornly to an old idea...and scoffing at some maverick scientist with a new and radical idea, in some cases even ostracizing such a scientist and basically shutting him or her out....and yet in time it turns out that the maverick was right and the mainstream wrong. It has happened again and again.

That's not because there's anything wrong with science. Or with the scientific method. It's solely because of the more negative aspects of human nature. It's because of human stubbornness, arrogance, pride, a sense of entitlement, self-absorption, unwillingness to change, protection of the status quo, intolerance to new ideas, etc.....human nature! Scientists are just like the rest of us in that sense, they can easily fall prey to all the same pitfalls of human nature that the rest of us do, and that was what I was alluding to. I was NOT criticizing science.

Nor do I criticize religion. I criticize the abuse OF religion due to the same pitfalls of human nature that I have listed above.

It's always the negative side of human nature that is the problem, as far as I'm concerned...not the particular area of inquiry or the discipline.

Wisdom is based upon simplicity, Bill. ;-) Artifice and needless, convoluted arguments are based upon complexity.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 03:47 PM

If one could take the human influence out of both science and religion, both would be closer to their roots. But, understanding they are closely connected to these inperfections, it is wise to understand and "factor in" these confounding factors.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 04:18 PM

Yup. ;-)

Think how much simpler and more straightforward the world would be if dogs were the ruling species...

Every day would be GREAT!!!
(almost) Every smell would be GREAT!!!
Every meal would be GREAT!!!
Every outing would be GREAT!!!

And the place would be pretty messy... ;-) There's always a downside to everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 04:21 PM

and possession of a rolled-up newspaper would be a felony.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 04:23 PM

"sniff, sniff, Hi, Fifi"

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 04:41 PM

And blogs would happen at fire hydrants, trees, and fence posts.

Or...wait...maybe just trees. And rocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 05:04 PM

Dogs eat and sleep. They do not dwell on things that are not important to their lives or anything they can't solve quickly.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 05:07 PM

We've got plenty dinosaurs on ITV1 now - "Primeval" series 4 has started, and somehow Dr Julian Bashir has joined the cast!

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 05:08 PM

"IF DOGS RULED THE WORLD ...

We'd always find somewhere to bury our troubles.

Our spirits would be unleashed.

We'd stop barking up the wrong trees.

We'd always paws for reflection.

Beggars could be choosers.

We'd have faithful friends and loyal love.

We'd give a lick about each other."

[by Mike & Robin Monarch, ColdRush Siberians, 12/1/99]

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: mousethief
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 05:20 PM

If one could take the human influence out of both science and religion, both would be closer to their roots.

If you could do that, neither would have ever come into existence in the first place.

Aside to pete from seven stars: put spaces after your commas and periods, please. Too hard to read.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 05:26 PM

I guess you did not get it Mousethief:)

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Songster Bob
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 06:43 PM

The aspect of this whole thing that upsets me is the plan to use taxpayer money for the project. There's no way that it's Constitutional to subsidize such a project, and I don't care whether it's "true" or not. It's still subsidizing religion, and the Constitution says you can't do that.

And creationism is junk science, and, honestly, dumb religion. Really.

And i,m just about fed up with poor typing from some participants in this ,conversation,, since it shows a lack of intellect.which degrades interest in that person,s arguments.

And it's really hard to make those typographical errors deliberately, so I'll not do so.

Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 06:49 PM

You must admit, the typings better than the logic.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: mousethief
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 07:16 PM

I guess not.

Nor how to use HTML right!

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,Bizibod
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 07:26 PM

I'm thinking that the typing's being done, for whatever reason, with just the one hand, so let's not get personal eh ?
:)

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: kendall
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 08:47 PM

Ben Franklin and Abe Lincoln were also Deists.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 08:54 PM

"I wasn't talking about science, Bill. I was talking about human nature..."

But LH... in that context, following pete's remarks, what you said implies that scientists, ('scientifically minded people') in their role AS scientists, begin with careless presuppositions. That is WHY I say that it is important to be cautious of generalizations. I don't even accept that it is obvious that MOST people think and act the way you suggest. I agree that many do....way too many.... but to the extent that it IS so, the assertion does not seem to me to be relevant to pete's remarks, unless you clarify why!

You said.."Everyone comes to a subject they are interested in with a whole set of presuppositions, often with a whole set of rather strong prejudices, often with emotional prejudices of various sorts.."...and that sure sounds like an unwarranted generalization to me... "everyone" doesn't do that...


to the Pink Panther theme...:
Pedant, pedant...pedant,pedant,pedant..

A fellow's gotta have a hobby to keep him off the streets.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: kendall
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 09:59 PM

But, what if his hobby is being in the streets?

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 12:37 AM

Science Vs Faith

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 12:45 AM

Bill.... ;-)

I stand absolutely by what I said: "Everyone comes to a subject they are interested in with a whole set of presuppositions, often with a whole set of rather strong prejudices, often with emotional prejudices of various sorts.."

If you read my statement carefully, and dispassionately, you will see that the only thing I am saying that everybody does is, they come to a subject they are interested in with a set of presuppositions.

And they do. I do not imply that those presuppositions are necessarily bad or wrong, I merely say that they are there. And they are. By the time one is interested in a subject, and knows enough to KNOW that they are interested in it, they have developed a set of ideas about it...a framework of understanding about it...a general viewpoint and angle on it. Those are the presuppositions I'm speaking of. Those presuppositions might be good, bad, or indifferent...foolish or wise...that depends on the person.

I was not implying something negative about all scientists. By no means. I was merely saying that they come to their subject with an established mindset, based on their past acquaintance with the subject.

The moment I utter the words "the USA" or "Russia" or "China" or "evolution" or "creator" or any other words....and you hear those words...a host of prior associations and reactions to those words arises in your mind, and that influences your viewpoint. Those are the presuppositions I was referring to. And we ALL have them. Me too. You too. Scientists too. Christians too. Muslims too. EVERYBODY's thinking is affected by prior conditioning, and so are their fears, prejudices, likes and dislikes.

And that's all I was referring to, and I'm saying scientists are affected by that too. This does not equate to an attack on all scientists, it merely points out that scientists, like other people, are affected by prior conditioning. This can cause them to be less than completely objective in what data they choose to pursue, how they view that data when they get it, how they interpret it, and whether they even decide to pursue it at all....or whether they even realize that it's there! They can miss things on account of that. They can misinterpret things on account of that. They are just like other people in that respect, meaing: they are not gods. They are, like you, me, and everyone else....fallible, and capable of error, and capable of espousing incorrect theories at times and resisting new theories which annoy them in some way because they're already wedded to backing some other theory.

And that should be kept in mind at all times.

NO ONE gets a free ride, Bill. No one gets carte blanche. No one is ALWAYS right. Not the Pope. Not your Momma. Not even the science community.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 07:13 AM

And more importantly Primeval is back for series 4 on ITV.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primeval
http://primeval.wikia.com/wiki/Primeval_Wiki

"The anomalies are conclusive proof that the past exists, in a fourth dimension as real and solid as those we already know. Our job is to predict and contain them."
―Nick Cutter[src]

http://primeval.wikia.com/wiki/Anomaly

And series 5 is airing in the Autumn 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 11:04 AM

Now THAT would be a great theme for a park - "Primeval" with anomalies and weird creatures from the past and the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 12:52 PM

""If one could take the human influence out of both science and religion, both would be closer to their roots. But, understanding they are closely connected to these inperfections, it is wise to understand and "factor in" these confounding factors.""

I take issue with that statement.

If you take out the human influence, scientific facts would be influenced not a jot. They would exist whether or not we were there to know it.

Religion on the other hand is purely a human construct, and without human influence would not exist. The reasons for it would still be there, but without human influence the construct would be unnecessary.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 01:50 PM

"If you read my statement carefully, and dispassionately, you will see that the only thing I am saying that everybody does is, .." etc...

Yeah, I realize that is 'all you are saying', but I disagree that it IS universally true, and as I have said before about a couple of your sweeping generalizations, IF you define it so broadly that it can't be disputed, it becomes almost trivial. If all you mean is that we can't approach a subject without previous mental constructs...sure...we don't 'think' in a vacuum. That hardly expands to mean we automatically are 'prejudiced' or 'directed' in certain ways. Insofar as we ARE, that merely defines the point at which we begin to consider WHAT our opinions are, and that consideration is what we bring to an issue....and IT may be well-considered or poorly considered. I suspect that you are treating the poorly considered as basic, and many go no further. I just suggest that for your generalization to be true, it is ONLY applicable to that trivial aspect....

Now, I'll post this...and then re-read it to see if I understand me.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 02:33 PM

you are not correct entirely in charging me with typing with one hand-it,s one finger!.
i am neither offended nor intimidated by your insults.
your using such tactics is hardly intelligent use of your brain power.

little hawk-thanks for your reasoned responses.so refreshing to have more constructive discussion.
you are quite right[at least in my experience]that churches dont tell it,s people about egyptian virgin stories etc, though i dont think that is deliberate ommision aimed at deception.
rather it may not be appropriate, or involves theological discussion beyond normal sunday preaching.
i have heard this stuff before, having been engaged in mudcat awhile.
even previously,my limited theological reading informed me of the comparisons between mosaic and egyptian shrines,and the layout of the camp of israel being similar to egyptian troop camp.
my own take on that is that God directed moses in accordance with the training moses received as an egyptian prince.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 02:57 PM

Bill....ummmm, yeah...right. ;-)

It may be trivial to you. (shrug) Yes, I think that even you, Bill, are automatically directed and prejudiced in certain ways...namely...by the culture and the time you grew up in, and by your own personal background. And this is also true of other people. It happens to everyone while they are growing up.

I don't consider it a trivial matter, but you may. I consider it very significant. To comprehend where people are coming from, you must first understand what they have experienced and been exposed to since birth. If you get something approaching a good grasp of that, you will then understand why they do the odd things they do, and why they believe what they believe. You will then develop some compassion for them, even in their greatest states of confusion, negativity, and misdirection. You will then understand that if you had been placed in their shoes, you might also believe as they believe, and do as they do, and not question it.

I think that is an essential part of learning to be human. It's not trivial in the least.

But how many people stringently question their own normal set of assumptions? If they did, they'd learn a lot more about themselves, and probably become more honest and kind, but their attention is usually directed outward at someone else or something else. They're actually afraid to look within themselves, for fear of what they'd find. Thus they hide from the greatest challenge of life which is to "know thyself". Instead they know others, they judge others, they desire (some) others, and they attack others. Their battles are in vain, because they have avoided dealing with the real battleground which is within themselves.

"We have found the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 04:15 PM

pete - If God directed Moses (and I am willing to consider such a possibility), then I think God also has directed innumerable others, and in a variety of other religious and cultural situations. Such a God would, I think, also have directed Krishna, Buddha, Deganawidah (North American Indian prophet), Quetzlcoatl, Zoroaster, indeed uncountable numbers of sages and wise people in many, many cultural traditions. God may, in some measure, direct everyone, but with varying results, because we have free will. We decide.

What I find odd about the Jewish-based religious story is that it is all centered on them and it sets them apart from the rest of humanity. I don't buy that. I don't believe there is any "chosen people" set aside from the rest of the human race...I think that was the usual self-centered mindset common to nations and tribes everywhere. They always think God is their God, first and foremost. That's the arrogance of man, to even think such a thing.

The Nazis also thought they were the chosen people, the special people. So did the Aztecs. So did the Iroquois. So have the French and English and Germans and Japanese and Americans...deep in their hearts. They all think they're the most special and valuable nation and way of life that's ever been. They're all wrong about that. No just God would set one people above and apart from the rest, it just isn't right.

Therefore, although the Bible writings may have been inspired by a genuine spiritual source, I don't believe for a minute that those writings were not prejudiced and influenced by the cultural minds of the very people who wrote them down.

Therefore I cannot possibly consider the Bible, as written, to be a very reliable source, because it is culturally biased to set the Israelites apart from everyone else and make them the center of everything, and who made that decision?

The Israelites made that decision!!! ;-D Not God. They made themselves the star of their own cultural and religious story. That's what people (in general) virtually always do. They're self-absorbed.

One thing I like about Buddhism, for example, is that it sees humanity just as humanity. It does not set one nation, race or tribe apart from any other in any respect whatsoever. Any creed that does not see us all as equal is flawed, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 04:18 PM

Don(Wyziwyg)T

I suspect you missed the meaning of that earlier post (in that discussion). However, I as to your interpretation.

Science and religion (according to many, religion was and is inspired by a God, not humans) may be called facts by some. But, humans have to discover and interpret both within their limited abilities (aka as the human filter).

Additionally, the human interpretation of scientific findings, (you seem to be calling scientific facts) have (and still do) change from trime to time. Are facts subject to change and reinterpretation?

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 04:35 PM

Facts are undoubtedly subject to reinterpretation. It's not enough just to know facts. You must fully understand the relationships between those facts to make any sense out of them. And you haven't got the whole picture until you know ALL the facts and you understand ALL the relationships between them........

And who does? ;-) Our knowledge of ourselves, the world, and life all around us is only partial, and it will remain so, though we continue to add to it. This is why any holy book, any religion, and any general scientific approach or discipline is imperfect, limited in its application or understanding, and it simply cannot be considered the last word on the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 04:47 PM

On a related matter,this is a good read ("Karl Popper is generally regarded as one of the greatest philosophers of science of the 20th century"):

Karl Popper

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 05:14 PM

I re-read what I said, LH, and I do understand it....you however, do not seem to grasp exactly what I am calling 'trivial'. I am NOT calling the totality of our life experiences that partially define who we are as humans 'trivial', but rather the dependence on that general totality as an explanation for specific variations in our belief system. It's 'sort of' true, but it doesn't explain much.
"Some people are mean" doesn't help much in trying to figger out why THAT person beat up that other person. I suppose you'd say, "Oh, all people have the tendency to be mean in them." (best I could do for quick metaphor) "pre-disposition" is way too general to argue a case in court, unless you can show specific examples...

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 05:32 PM

Well, Bill, I was simply making the point that the scientific community is composed of fallible human beings just like any other community is...and human beings who fall under cultural influence, governmental influence, even (in some cases) religious influence. I appreciate the organized nature of the scientific method, but one must remain aware that scientists themselves are subjective in the sense of what they choose to research in the first place, how they go about it, and so on. This means that science, like religion or any other field of human activity sometimes operates on false assumptions, sometimes draws wrong conclusions from available evidence, sometimes misses things entirely, and sometimes makes errors...and sometimes is used toward a harmful purpose.

Therefore, one shouldn't have a childlike faith in the infallibility and dependability of the science community any more than someone should have a childlike faith in any other human authority structure. They are all somewhat undependable, depending on a great variety of factors.

Science is also made to serve as a handmaiden to various worldly powers such as:

the government
the military
private industry

And as such, scientific research is often pre-planned to serve an unstated agenda...perhaps an agenda that is neither in the public interest nor in the real interests of most life on this planet.

As much as we must cast a skeptical eye on religion, we must not forget that science can also be deliberately or accidentally used to mislead people. (depending on who is really in charge of it at a top command level, and what their agenda really is)

The real agenda of the Medieval Church was to control as much money and political power and land as they possibly could, and to shut out all possible competitors in the form of other religions or power structures.

What is the real agenda of a modern scientific lab? Well...that usually depends on WHO is funding them! ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 05:59 PM

"What is the real agenda of a modern scientific lab? Well...that usually depends on WHO is funding them!"

Didn't Bob Dylan say "you've got to serve somebody:)

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 06:13 PM

"I was simply making the point that the scientific community is composed of fallible human beings..."
Yes...and I was simply making the point that that 'sounds' like a suggestion that it affects their 'science' as a general principle, and I claim that is not usually the case.

"Science is also made to serve as a handmaiden to various worldly power..."

ALL science?

".....that usually depends on WHO is funding them! ;-D "

No...*grin*...it is SOMETIMES true. More generalizations for my target practice...

I admit, it is tedious to have to work overtime to explicate your chatty opinions, but it often changes the whole tone of what is meant.
Perhaps you are intentionally testing my resolve to be pedantic?.....naawwwww..., I don't really think so..

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 07:40 PM

""according to many, religion was and is inspired by a God, not humans""

Faith may be inspired by a divine spirit which humans may choose to call God, but religion is a human construct in which groups of men claim to know "God's Purpose" and profess to be his messengers, in order to control adherents.



""Additionally, the human interpretation of scientific findings, (you seem to be calling scientific facts) have (and still do) change from trime to time. Are facts subject to change and reinterpretation?""

The "findings", or more accurately the interpretion of results, may have to change to accommodate our increasing knowledge and ability, but the underlying facts remain the same whether we know them or not, and whether we exist or not.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 07:53 PM

"Faith may be inspired by a divine spirit which humans may choose to call God, but religion is a human construct in which groups of men claim to know "God's Purpose" and profess to be his messengers, in order to control adherents."

I suspect others may interpret this differently than you, especially the word inspired.

In addition, you may be confusing those following an organized religion, (a human construct) from those only following directions thay see as being given from a God. For example, it is hard not to be considered a Christian, if you follow the directions of Christ. But, that does not put you under a human constructed religion.

As to your second comment, yes, that is "somewhat" what I was referring to in the original post (the one I commented you did not get).

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 08:10 PM

""In addition, you may be confusing those following an organized religion, (a human construct) from those only following directions thay see as being given from a God.""

Do try to keep up. Who do you suppose supplies those directions?

As far as I know not one of our current correspondents is claiming to have been directly contacted by God, so the only reasonable assumption is that, in the absence of humans, they would never have received those directions at all.

Now do you understand what I am saying?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 08:18 PM

""For example, it is hard not to be considered a Christian, if you follow the directions of Christ. But, that does not put you under a human constructed religion.""

Oh puhlease!

Christ may or may not have been either divine or human. He may even have been both.

The followers of Christ were, as far as I know, human, and every Christian sect arises out of the writings of those original followers.

If that is not a human construct, perhaps you can tell me how, in the absence of humans, those writings would have existed?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 08:25 PM

OK you win...Feel better now?

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 10:09 PM

No, Bill, of COURSE not ALL science. ;-) And you should know by now that I don't speak in all-or-nothing terms when I am discussing the fallibilities and various tendencies of the human race. I see in shades of gray. People who speak in all-or-nothing terms only seem to be willing to see things in black and white, and that's one of the things I frequently object to on this forum.

You are really being quite obstinate, Bill, in repeatedly trying to paint me as an absolutist when I am not. It is partly because of you that I take much pains to include many little qualifying words and phrases in my posts such as "tend to", "some of", "on average", "in general", "in some cases", "on occasion", and so on...just so you won't leap on something I said and pretend that I mean that ALL of whoever I'm talking about are ALWAYS thus and so... ;-D Couldn't you ease up a little on this sort of pedantry and give me some benefit of the doubt now and then? Surely by now you would know that I am not speaking in absolutes?

Ed - You may have just given Don an orgasm there by telling him "you win"! ;-) If so, he'll probably need to rest for a bit before responding.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 12:19 AM

", it is hard not to be considered a Christian, if you follow the directions of Christ."

But these days, if you say that out loud, the psychologists may chase you - unless you are the President of the USA...

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 06:27 AM

LH, I get your point.

I learned a life lesson many years ago that it is at times better to give some folks the pride of a win, rather to go on with a back and forth, pointless, argument...such as "if a tree falls in the forest"... or, "do bears shit in the woods". I took philosophy classes in school, and found some discusssions could be mentally stimulating. But, I quickly clued in that most of the disussions did not mean a hill of beans to anyones life:)

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 01:50 PM

little hawk-i know you dont accept the inspiration of the bible,at least as i do ,but possibly i might at least clarify it,s teaching as regards israel.
it was not Gods purpose to favour israel entirely for their own sake,but also as an example to other nations[much of the time they failed in this]
people from other nations sometimes were directed by him.some came to worship him even in OT times, and accepted in israel.
with the coming of Jesus the call was finally fulfilled that opened the way for all nations to be accepted as Gods chosen.
the flip side for israel was that God expected more of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 02:04 PM

"Couldn't you ease up a little on this sort of pedantry and give me some benefit of the doubt now and then? "


**sitting on my hands**.... (why, yes...I did type this with my nose.)

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Penny S.
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 02:19 PM

I've been holding back on this - I did try to find the source of a quote about the original geologists, but couldn't. It was something about them going out into the field as creationists, but finding there evidence which changed their minds.

And lo, next week, on BBC2, on Thursday, at 9 pm, the current face of Earth Sciences in the media, Iain Stewart, is starting a three part series on "Men of Rock", the founders of geology, with a programme on James Hutton.

These men who tramped Scotland did not go out with preconceptions, to toe the accepted line to keep their place in academe, and were not tied to grant or corporate funding when they established a great age for the Earth. And anyone who goes out there with open eyes can find the same things. (A creationist group went to examine Hutton's Unconformity, and they did not find what they wanted to find, and their report stated they needed more work. Sorry, haven't kept the reference.)

Personally, I think it is irrelevant to living a good life to place too great a concern on a literal belief in the Bible as a history book. It is an issue in which I agree with Galileo. The book is to teach us how to live, not to teach us how the world works. And even that needs care - just look what happens with literalists in Israel now, who are reliving the Bronze Age with modern weapons.

People can live Christly lives whatever they believe about Genesis.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Penny S.
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 02:28 PM

OK, they did go out with the assumption that what they were seeing had natural causes, and they did go out to challenge the neptunist interpretation that all was sedimentary. And found answers in sedimentary rocks.

Cannot find any reference on google to a creation science field trip - sorry.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Penny S.
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 02:45 PM

Found a reference.

Creationists visit Siccar Point

It isn't the one I remember. It does argue that the site shows signs of much more rapid deposition than usually accepted. I presume this is to support a Noachian rather than a neptunian event It does not explain how a greywacke, which forms on the edge of continental shelves over millenia, with a shale, which also takes rather a long time to deposit in that environment, was cemented into rock and uplifted, hard enough to be eroded, in a short length of time. There is a slitheriness about this omission I find concerning.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 03:54 PM

pete - Yes, I understand what Israel's role presumably was to be, as put forth in the Bible...as you have explained it.

I just don't buy it, that's all.

I think that God...if there is a God...would expect exactly the same from all of us...or would have, better yet, NO expectations of us, but just a great deal of love for us.

Rather as a parent loves a child. One should not have expectations of one's children. That leads to a lot of pain and sorrow. One should only love them...without any preconditions, without any expectations, without any rewards, punishments or demands. Love is not love if it's conditional. It might be a degree of affection. It might be merely attraction. It might be attachment or a sense of ownership. But it's not love.

NOTE: I am not saying in the above that children do not require guidance, discipline, and direction. They do. And if you love them, and aren't afraid to love them, you will give them guidance, discipline, and direction...because to not do so would be a betrayal of your children and would greatly harm them in time.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 04:19 PM

(why, yes...I did type this with my nose.)

Some may seem to type with their ass:)

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 05:05 PM

little hawk-you make a good argument,but it seems to leave aside biblical teaching that speaks about God.
he is certainly ioving, as ultimately demonstrated in the sacrifice of Christ for our sin.
but being just and holy; punishment is necessary.
love and justice are both satisfied at the cross event for believing sinners.
i would suppose you know this,but dont accept it,at least at present

hi penny -3rd poster on here from fox and hound days!
i read article and some other stuff which talked fairly extensively about greywacke but geology is definately not my subject.i also read about george fairholme on creation.com which also referred to the geologists that recanted their biblical position,whom i presume you were referring to.
i,m unsure but might this be due to 19c catastrophists not accepting the flood as causing the strata?.

it seems that you are comfortable with a low view of biblical authority but for myself that is not an option.if creation is a poetic myth then the teaching of jesus and the NT writers is not trustworthy either since they referred often to genesis.that of course is irrelivant to unbelievers but crucial to myself.

ps-new singaround at the rising sun kemsing near F and H 3rd mondays.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 05:10 PM

I should make one amendment to my last post. Love does give rewards. It just doesn't make itself conditional on the basics of only giving a promised reward if the preconditions are met, that's all. One should definitely reward children for any good that they do, and that reward is primarily in recognizing that good and giving it your full appreciation. Praise and appreciation go a long way toward building confidence and self-worth in a child.

If there were a God, I should think he or she would love humanity and inspire them by the example of that love, not attempt to frighten them into obedience. The Bible does speak of a God who loves humanity....but it's also big on dire punishments meted out by that same God. I don't think much of the punishment aspect. I think the Hebrew elders were simply imagining a God in their own hard-nosed, violent, and unforgiving image. I would not want to live under such a harsh, vicious patriarchy as they had in those days, bent as it was upon vengeance, punishment, and (in many cases) bloody murder. If you look at the patriarchies of modern Muslim fundamentalism, they are much the same...and not surprisingly! They're based on the same set of original holy books! ;-)

You might gather that I like the New Testament a whole lot better than I do the Old Testament. ;-) Although...I do like certain parts of the Old Testament, like Proverbs or The Song of Solomon, for instance.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 05:28 PM

Yeah, pete, I know about that, but I put a different interpretation on it, that's all. I have a tremendous liking and admiration for Jesus and for the fine example he set in his teachings and his exemplary conduct. I think he was a very inspired spiritual teacher and healer. I don't think he was the only ordained son of God...or that he died as a ransom for anyone's sins.

What I suspect happened was that after Jesus' death (and/or his resurrection and ascension..at any rate, his departure) his closest followers tried first of all to reform the local Jewish faith according to what he'd taught them...but they were persecuted and in some cases killed for trying to do so. They eventually gave up trying to change the local Jewish religion of that time and they started their own new religion instead...and they had some infighting then as to who among them would get to lead it and determine its basic ideas, etc.

And I think they edited much of what Jesus said and did to spice up the pudding, so to speak, because they were trying, after all, to gain converts to a brand new religion. They had to sell that religion effectively to people. I think that they themselves made up a lot of the stuff that is now standard Christian doctrine.

I may be wrong about that, of course. But that is my theory on it. I'm in no position to know for sure about any of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 05:43 PM

""OK you win...Feel better now?"2

What has winning to do with it?

It's about accuracy in defining the terms of a discussion, without which not much of meaning emerges.

""I learned a life lesson many years ago that it is at times better to give some folks the pride of a win, rather to go on with a back and forth, pointless, argument.""

Now you are just being gratuitously insulting. Never in my time as a Mudcat Member have I gloated or shown pride in winning.

What you seem to want is blind acceptance of your viewpoint right or wrong, which tends to cast you in the same mould as the Creationists

What I am after is to discuss the same topic.

It's best if both sides know what that topic is, rather than me talking about apples, and you responding on the subject of oranges.

However, if you are too bored to bother that's fine by me.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 09:38 PM

Ya got it right, Don.
I became bored.
Again, your win, my loss.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 01:22 AM

Here's a new thought worth pondering:

Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 09:08 AM

"Never play leapfrog with a unicorn."


I believe I posted this related Redd Fox joke before. But, it was one of my Redd favourites.

Redd said he visited a nudist colony, and they were playing leap frog. He joined in the game. But, was quickly disqualified because he wasn't jumping high enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 09:23 AM

And who got in between the meat eaters and vegetable meaters to prevent any bloodshed I wonder? Or who was the poor devil who drew the short straw to do that?

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 10:23 AM

LH, an interesting article, I believe related to earlier points made by you, as to the importance in allowing for bias in any field (nothing is infallible).

Science peer review

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 10:29 AM

Note:Some of the comments below the article I just linked are more interesting than the article itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 11:23 AM

Can you imagine what the fundamentalist tea party heaven must look like?
A land where rivers flow with oil, a land free of illegal unions, a land free to perform any abuse on earth for a regulation free market profit. Even in Alaska where 2/3 of the state is zoned for drilling, in the christian heaven it will be 3/3's owned by big oil.

Who knows maybe big Phrama will come out with a drug that will make Christians closer to God and more strident in their associations with their secular neighbors. Big Corp sees a brave new world where people are not just born with sin, BUT WITH HUGE DEBT.
People will have a gas bill, a water bill, a food bill, an electric bill, and even an air bill... all the while paying for the taxes of their billionaires.

A pledge to Corporations may replace the flag.
"I indemnify the banks of Untied States of America, and to the interest we must pay, one Corporation - UNDER GOD - to obey for ever, and ever and ever."

As long as corporations represent themselves as God loving and that any enemy of corporate power as God hating, they will have a firm grasp of their base by the short and curlies.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 11:30 AM

There is a natural evolution of things in which even the tea party christians will notice changing the nature of their short lived cause to save America. This evolution applies to all man made movements...

It starts with a cause or a good idea and becomes a movement.
The movement becomes a business
and the business becomes a criminal racket.

plug and play any "cause" into this equation and you will see the inviolate truth of this natural evolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 11:54 AM

thanks little hawk for your thoughtful response.
if the deciples did "spice up the pudding";it seems that they were willing to suffer and die for it.seems very foolish if they did,nt believe it themselves, or had falsified the story.

as you suggest the early church did not separate from the jewish worship at first,and went to the non jews after rejection of their message.i understand that rome at first tolerated christians as a subset of judaism, but later persecuted them-not tolerating a lord and saviour of mankind other than caesar.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Stu
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 11:56 AM

"he is certainly ioving, as ultimately demonstrated in the sacrifice of Christ for our sin.
but being just and holy; punishment is necessary."

Is he Pete? What about the parasitic nematode worms Onchocerca volvulus that cause river blindness across the world. According to creationism, God apparently saw fit to create this animal (and others like it) which infect millions every year, causes immense suffering and death to people whose only sin is to be born into a poor, tropical country.

Of course you might say that 'the Lord works in mysterious ways', or try blaming the victim for some unknown transgression of a law lain down by the representatives of a God they have never heard of, but that would hardly be compatible with the loving, benevolent God you worship. It would suggest he meant to cause that suffering - he condemned those people in a lottery of suffering visited upon them by the arbitrary feeding patterns of another of his creatures that delivers this parasite, a fly. You can't say God didn't create this animal with this life-cycle as you must believe he did. To deny he did is to deny the creation, to deny God. But to accept he did create this worm is also to accept in his wisdom he new he would inflict suffering on people who were not even born then. Countless generations of suffering on his whim. How does that square with a loving God?

Now I'm guessing that God is happy enough for science to struggle to find ways of avoiding and curing these horrendous diseases and infections, but isn't loving enough to do it himself or even not create the creature that causes this suffering in the first place. It seems not though.

Of course, it might just be that this animal evolved to fill a niche which includes having humans as part of its life cycle with all the unpleasant consequences that means for the victims. It evolved without malice or as part of some grand scheme, another element of our biosphere we are trying to understand and cope with, from mosquito nets to DNA.

Which is more than creationism could ever allow.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 12:42 PM

pete - People will suffer and die for any cause if they really believe in it, and I'm sure the disciples of Jesus really believed in the cause they were espousing. Whether such behaviour is "foolish" or "courageous" is strictly a matter of individual interpretation, right?

They might still have spiced up the stew and improved upon the story, even if they were entirely sincere in spreading the teachings of Jesus. They would have done so because they felt it was necessary in order to have the religion gain enough converts and succeed in establishing itself. The end would therefore justify the means.

I mean, heck, people are always spicing up and embellishing their stories in order to make them sound better. They do this naturally, hardly even thinking about it. They exaggerate a bit, then a bit more. They leave out the parts that aren't "good" enough. They add in some neat little features to make it more exciting. Ordinary people do this when they tell stories, politicians do it, and religious people do it. I think it's very probable that the disciples did it too.

I think the only way we could possibly be sure exactly what Jesus said and did, and exactly how it all happened, would be if we could go back in a time machine and be right there on the spot to witness it as it all unfolded.

And wouldn't that be something! I'd love a chance to do that, because like anyone else...I really want to know for sure. Alas, we have no such time machine at present.

There's no book out there that I have absolute faith in. How could there be? Books are written by people, and people are fallible.

I think that the only reason many Christians have absolute faith in the Bible is this: they were told by some other Christians that the Bible is the one and only and unimpeachable Word of God. And they chose to believe those other Christians....! But on what basis???? Heaven only knows! ;-) What they have really done is this: they have put absolute faith in what some other people told them...and they have then extended that absolute faith to include a single book, the Bible.

That's exactly what most Muslims do in regards to their holy books, the Old Testament, the New Testament, and the Koran. (those are their 3 holy books, but they place by far the most attention on the most recent book: the Koran)

I place absolute faith in no book, and in no creed, but in life itself. To me, life itself is the living Word of God, and by that I mean the entire experience of life as I experience it directly, and as I learn from it. I know it's real, because I am experiencing it directly at all times, and I draw all my conclusions from that. Life, to me, is the Holy of Holies.

That being the case, I find God everywhere and in everything. I am always standing within the midst of what is sacred. That strikes me as a good way of learning about the Word of God if one wants to learn. Just observe and participate in life as fully as possible, and do so with respect and attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 01:11 PM

Ed T.. thanks for the link to the article on peer review. There's a lot to muse on when you have digested the main points. (The opening paragraphs do set the scene nicely)

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 05:55 AM

I note those living in Queensland Australia are calling their floods "biblical."

Now, that's interesting. Aborigines have been there longer than the ark fairy stories, so factoring that into the equation you get..

Even more bollocks.

Biblical eh? A useful word, meaning extraordinary or beyond comprehension. Says it all really. It isn't the first (or last) time that fairy stories can impact on reality. There is (or was) a Sherlock Holmes exhibition on Baker St in London.

No problem with people saying "I believe" as I believe in Sheffield Wednesday despite results that test the faith.

What I do have a problem with however is the tedium of superstitious people thrusting their delusions on others in the belief that they are relevant to non members. Pretending that all things were on the ark is nice, in the same way that Santa coming down the chimney is nice. Trying to relate in in the real world though is where I stop nodding sagely and start pointing and laughing. Sorry, but that's how it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 06:39 AM

""if the deciples did "spice up the pudding";it seems that they were willing to suffer and die for it.seems very foolish if they did,nt believe it themselves, or had falsified the story.""

Here is one of the problems Pete. The first written records of the New Testament did not appear until over a hundred years after Jesus' death.

The "Chinese Whispers" effect over several generations of a group which was being actively persecuted might be expected to produce considerable distortion of the facts.

The Romans executed Christians. They didn't try to convert them first, they just got shot of 'em ASAP.

In those circumstances, martyrs killed for refusing to convert are quite unlikely.

Much more likely is that the leaders of the movement, needing a rallying call, adjusted the stories to suit.

I can't prove that is what happened, so I present it as a possibility.

You can't prove that it wasn't, but you ignore the possibility and claim martyrdom as an established fact.

To me that epitomises the difference between science and faith.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 07:05 AM

I have been recording and watching a series of programs on ancient civilisations recently. Not for the first time, I have been acquainted with the notion that Romans embraced cultures and religions, making them part of the Roman culture. Much easier to control people if you don't threaten their heritage.

I assume Christians didn't like the idea of being assimilated?

Too true about the 100 year gap in stories being collated. Newspapers distort as events unfold, so how about writers who are trying to push a point?

I have read parts of the King James bible, mainly because the wonderful writing style is a history lesson in itself. However, I have also read Tolkien, enjoying his style too. On balance, he tells a better story for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 07:16 AM

The reason the Romans didn't like Christians initially was that, like the Jews, Christians didn't acknowledge the divinity of Caesar. The main change in the stories was the separation of the followers of Jesus from "the Jews", as by the second half of the first century, the leaders of the temple cult, formerly agents of Roman rule, had made themselves very unpopular, hence the destruction of the temple and Massada.

Later, the Roman Empire assimilated the Jesus Cult, with the result that the Bishop of Rome ended up acquiring some of the Emperor's titles, such as "Pontiff".

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 10:23 AM

Like I said above...why even try...??? It would be like telling someone in the 1500s about airplanes and space travel. No hope of getting them to listen to that, right?


You could if it was Leonardo da Vinci.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Stu
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 10:36 AM

Good point about the Aborigines. They've arrived in Australia 44,000 years before the earth even existed, if creationism is to be believed.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 12:26 PM

Oh, the amoebae went in two by four,
By eight, by sixty four, by five hundred and twelve, by sixteen thousand three hundred and eighty four....

Christians eh? never enough lions around when you could do with the buggers....

Am I dreaming, or does the bible rattle on about Noah raping his own daughters? Now.. considering churches have policies for anti harassment, I doubt this particular hero of theirs would pass a CRB check?

Come to think about it, churches (and mosques, synagogues etc) also need (for their charitable trusts) policies in place for tolerance and diversity, let alone equality!   

Makes you think, doesn't it?

This silly waffle about dinosaurs fitting into scriptures is just the tip of the iceberg. Isn't it about time we debated the latest antics of the old guy in a white dress, red shoes and bits missing off his CV? Far more fun and just as lacking in reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 01:01 PM

"They've (aboriginals) arrived in Australia 44,000 years before the earth even existed"

Given that, could they be of an Alien source, Or, just very many early gods,wrapped into one pre-god. I know, it's all start'in to confuse me too :)

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 01:08 PM

There are innumerable possibilities, and among them is the possibility that alien races have periodically visited this planet in ancient times and seeded some of the lifeforms here...both animal and human...well, and perhaps some plant lifeforms too.

But that's another whole discussion. ;-) It would be responded to with howls of outrage and ridicule anyway, by various individuals who have already arbitrarily decided in their own minds that it could NEVER have happened! (despite having no rational basis for such certainty)....so just forget I even mentioned it, and carry on as before, folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 01:12 PM

Hang on, I forgot it's just after Xmas.

Somebody has been listening to their old Chris De Burgh albums again.

Rational means just that. Whilst nobody can give evidence that a spaceman didn't come a travelling, it doesn't mean it is a logical explanation for life on earth. After all, the chemical stew on the comets seem to be the best bet till we get a better picture.

Explanations without basis, whether it be religious or just dreamt up today, is not a good description of "rational". Mental leaps based on evidence such as the chemical compositions of comets is the start of a rational investigation. Not necessarily the truth, but uses a few facts to start the hypothesis.

Noahs ark however is not a rational basis for explaining reality. It is a fairy story based on, perhaps, the opening of the black sea into the med, but who knows?

It certainly ain't two by two etc. For that you would need a God and thats where it falls down.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 01:39 PM

Hey, steamin'...I did not say it was the cause of ALL life on Earth! I said it might have played some part in affecting life on Earth in various ways...by seeding some new species here...by introducing genetic changes to some organisms here...etc.

I agree that Noah and the Ark is not a believable story...if taken literally. If, however, it is an exaggerated legend based upon some real incident(s) of great floods and of survivors in the remote past...and Noah is a simplified and much embellished symbolic version of what really happened, a version that the Israelites came up with in order to put themselves at the center of the story...then it is, like many other legends, based on something that really occurred in the past, but was then turned into a story that was culturally adapted to suit the ideas of some people at a later time.

That sort of thing has happened over and over again. People shape a story to fit their own cultural viewpoint and their own social concerns.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 01:44 PM

Steamin' Willie (Whut?, that wasn't Noah, but Lot. And it was not a case of a man raping his daughters but his daughters raping their father (through getting him inebriated).

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 02:15 PM

"After all, the chemical stew on the comets seem to be the best bet till we get a better picture."

Does that rule out the concept that material reaching Earth from Mars may have been implicated, in some way? Although, that likely just adds another potential step.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 04:20 PM

dave-sounds like your reading of history accords with mine rather than dons.different sources maybe?.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 04:47 PM

The story about Lot and his daughters is quite complex (both before & after fleeing Sodom) and is a common one used to show how inconsistent and strange the Bible can be...in relation to what WE would think & do.

The story of Noah...and of Abraham & Isaac... and of Jonah & the whale...and of Elisha & the bears...and a dozen others... are all reasons why many, many have retreated from even trying to take the Bible as 'literal truth'. All we can do is shrug when folks inform us that they DO 'believe it as literal truth'.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 06:10 PM

""dave-sounds like your reading of history accords with mine rather than dons.different sources maybe?.""

OK, here is the history.

Jesus died aged thirty three, and over one hundred years later the first written accounts of his life and death appeared.

The Christians were persecuted because of their insistence on separating Caesar and God (Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's).

The were hounded, imprisoned and executed in huge numbers until 300 years after Jesus' birth.

In 274 A.D. Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus was born at Naissus in modern day Serbia.

He became an Emperor of Rome in 306 A.D. and in 312 A.D. he defeated Emperor Maxentius at the battle of the Milvian Bridge over the Tiber, in which river Maxentius drowned. This led to the destruction of the Tetrarchy and Constantine's elevation to sole Emperor of the whole Roman Empire.

It was after this battle that he converted to Christianity, which, under his patronage and protection, rapidly became the dominant religion, and was firmly established as such by 337 A.D. when Constantine died.

All of which is easily verifiable historical fact.

Check it out Pete.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: mousethief
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 06:57 PM

Don: Jesus died aged thirty three, and over one hundred years later the first written accounts of his life and death appeared.

Inaccurate. Most critical scholars date Mark at about 70 AD/CE, a mere 37 years after Jesus' death, which is a lot lower than 100. (Conservative scholars date it even earlier but they have their own axes to grind.)

Ignatius, writing in 110, knew of the Gospel of Matthew, making it at most 77 years after Christ's death. There are reasons to think it was written earlier, but that's a definite terminus ad quem.

Critical scholars put Luke at ca. 80-90, a mere 47 to 57 years after Christ's death.

You may be right about John; dates from scholars are all over the map.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 07:09 PM

I don't see how Don's sources (and interpretation) are all that different from mine. The only thing I'd say is that some of the writings date from before the fall of the Temple in Ad 70 - check the wording of the prophesies. The organization of episcopalian churches faithfully mirrors that of the Roman civil service, and there is a sizeable body within modern Christianity that doesn't see Constantine and the Council of Niceae as a 'good thing'.

Incidentally, there is a movement of mainly Anglicans called the "Sea of Faith", some of whom describe themselves as "agnostic, atheist or nontheist."

With regard to rational thought, I remember reading nearly half a century ago, possibly in one of Tim Dinsdale's books on the Loch Ness Monster, about a nineteenth century French scientist who proved conclusively that the giant squid did not exist, primarily on the grounds that he'd never had one in his laboratory.

On the other side I was watching an episode of the "Naked Archaeologist" recently where Simcha Jacobovici asserted that the discovery of two pre-exile tablets containing texts identical to those in the Masoretic text was proof that the first five books of the Hebrew Bible hab been dictated to Moses and transmitted thenceforth in written form, rather than having been compiled during the exile in Babylon, as most modern Bible scholars agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 07:11 PM

Yes mouse. I intended to date that hundred plus from his birth rather than death to conform with the timings re Constantine.

My mistake.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 07:17 PM

None of which detracts from my comments re the "Chinese Whispers effect", which would still allow for considerable distortion.

Nor do they obviate the possibility of those writers having, as you put it, ""an axe to grind""

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 08:00 PM

Speaking to personal experience, as the product of 800 years of Irish ancestry I was brought up in the Roman Catholic faith.

Baptised at six weeks, Catholic Primary School, first Communion at seven, Confirmed at fourteen, I was well and truly a God fearing child.

When I moved up to a Catholic, boys only, public (fee paying) grammar school, thanks to a scholarship awarded for the four top eleven plus results in London each year, I found myself in the less than tender care of God's Stormtroopers, the Jesuit Brothers, and a small number of ordained Catholic priests.

By this time, I had a lot of questions to which I needed answers, and I asked them, not in any disrespectful fashion, but purely out of a genuine desire for knowledge.

The initial response was an instant dismissal of my questions with responses which did not give me answers, but merely enjoined me to accept as a matter of faith the mysteries of God's purpose.

Being a stubborn young bugger (which hasn't changed) I persisted, and was thrown out of class.

Further enquiries were met with a series of beatings which went on till the Brother's arm was so tired he could no longer lift the two foot by four inch strip of flexible leather wired to a foot of broom handle known as the "Beaver Tail".

None of it shut me up so at fourteen I was permanently banned from Religious Instruction classes as a bad influence who might corrupt the other boys.

At sixteen I took GCE "O" Levels in nine subjects including RI (it was compulsory back then), and in RI I got an A+, the highest grade, which absolutely infuriated the master in charge of Religious Instruction.

All it proved for me was that they had absolutely no purpose except to re-inforce the programming of the Primary School years.

In five years not one question was answered.

I left the Catholic Faith behind, and I've never regretted so doing.

Those Priests and Brothers were not there to educate, inform, or enlighten.......Rather the opposite.

And that was mainstream Christian teaching, not right wing fundamental.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 10:36 AM

interesting posts all.
don-i appreciate your sharing of your past.

thanks mousethief for helpful adjustments to dons estimates.

dave-did,nt mean to imply massive difference.
dont know about tablets;new to me.though i would agree with the archaeologist,he seems to be overstating the evidence in favour of mosaic authorship-though a challenge to liberal scholars.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 12:18 PM

Simcha Jacobovici isn't an archaeologist, but an Orthodox Jewish journalist, with a not so hidden agenda. Archaeology in the Holy Land started out trying to find evidence to support the biblical accounts but has come long way since then. Jacobobovici is high on enthusiasm but not very good on logic.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 07:18 PM

""don-i appreciate your sharing of your past.""

It was a very important factor in my development, as it taught me that there is a world of difference between "Faith" and "Religion".

I incline toward belief in a Creator, while emphatically eschewing religious organisations.

I don't expect anybody else to follow my example, which is why it infuriates me when members of a religious organisation expect me to follow their path.

Proselytising callers at my front door receive very short shrift, and almost never return.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:28 AM

200

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:11 PM

well i,m not gonna pin you to the wall with one hand and a bible in the other don!
hopefully see you at the rising sun.