BS: Young Earth Creationism

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 01:46 PM

"the Bible is the word of God"

So is the Koran! Just ask the Muslims about that. How come the Koran is not getting any respect around here? ;-) And then there are the Upanishads and the Vedas. Ask the Hindus about that. And the Tibetan Book of the Dead. And the Buddhist writings. And a million other such books. Ever hear of those? And that's just the beginning! It's all the Word of God, guys. (or else none of it is) Even the clouds passing overhead in the sky are the Word of God if there is a Word of God, you just don't know how to translate that particular language when it's in the form of clouds, so it goes right by you completely unnoticed. If you could read all the sacred info that is contained in a single leaf that falls off any tree, you'd have the whole Word of God and the Book of Life right there in the palm of your outstretched hand.

A book cannot be read by a blind man, can it? Not unless it's written in braille, and he's been trained how to use it. People only relate to and comprehend the stuff they already expect to relate to and are familiar with, and their expectations are determined almost totally by the culture they were born in and the other people they took their cues from. They are blind to the rest. And that's what you usually have, the blind leading the blind and saying: "Our book (our method) (our discipline) (our party) (our country) (our belief) is the ONLY one containing and embodying the truth."

And it isn't the only one! They are all narrow-minded little chauvinists in their own way. They're all tied down by their culture and their traditions. They are blind to the stuff they're not familiar with yet or they're prejudiced against it for no good reason. And that is the sad story of a struggling and bickering humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 01:30 PM

"...and those with 'brighter brains' who disagree with you & Kent are wrong because.......????"

It says so in the Bible and the Bible is the word of God.....case closed!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 01:28 PM

Kent, this does not allow a lot of time for so many things to happen. It seems that this position needs a lot more thinking out and explaining (beyond the human aspects) before reasonable thinking people would consider it plausable. I expect that the 'evidence" ball would be in the court of the proponents who put this forward for consideration (and scrutiny). Do you have "credible" sources of detailed information to share?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 01:20 PM

...and those with 'brighter brains' who disagree with you & Kent are wrong because.......????

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 01:05 PM

argument weak-shout like blazes!
you may think we are deluded as christians but your verbal gutrot dont do anything to advance your position.

so glad kent that a much brighter brain than mine is around to explain YEC.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 12:51 PM

Kent's post last night says..."I was raised as an Ancient Earth Creationist, believing that Genesis is true...etc"

That is the crucial part. He says now that he is/has changed to be a YEC rather than an AEC, but he has always 'believed' in the creationist part.

How folks were raised and that early childhood 'setting' of basic beliefs is hard to overcome, as they seldom question the 'whether' Creationism is correct, but only rearrange the 'how' aspects.

There is very little one can do to debate someone who has not asked and seemingly does not intend to ask 'whether'.... That choice is ...oh... about 93.0165% emotional and subjective. (sure..I made up a statistic, but it 'feels' about right.)

Kent has made it almost clear that moving from AEC to YEC is mostly a matter of deciding that **since** he accepts that we are all decended from Noah...or whatever others were on 'the Ark'..., geology and anthropology and DNA data MUST be reinterpreted to fit that model.
   It is one of the consequences of having a brain large enough to have 'free will', that we are also able to hold multiple contradictory thoughts at the same time, and to rationalize that very ability.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
I repost for the 3 or 4th time a story I have told before:
.
.
.
..I kinda envy those who just say "Oh, I like THIS answer...I'll just believe it from now on, and avoid all that tedious thinking and juggling."

There was a cartoon strip called "Hagar the Horrible", about a silly Viking type with very modern problems. One Sunday saw him visiting the local wizard, Dr. Zook, who had a huge stone ring leaning against the wall, (like that 'money' on Yap Island).

"What's this?", asks Hagar.
"That's my new scientific measuring device." replys Dr. Zook, "Step in!"
....so Hagar squirms into the center of the stone ring....

"More...hunch down...squeeze tighter..." Zook says, as Hagar tries to cram himself into the tight space. Finally, he is in, awkwardly peering out at the pleased wizard.

"There!", says Dr. Zook with authority, "You are exactly 5 feet tall!"

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 12:30 PM

Don-

Its hardly name calling- more an accurate description. Nor am I singling Kent out; he's one of thousands (millions?) - unfortunately.

There's also a major fallacy in your approach: logic & reason have nowt to do with it- nor will they have any influence on the mentally ill.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 12:06 PM

I do agree with what you say Greg (though I wouldn't use the same language to say it), but the essence of discussion is to take on the issue rather than slag off the opponent.

I'm quite happy to sit at my keyboard and patiently demolish his statements one by one with logic and reason.

Calling him names will only convince him that you have nothing relevant to say.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 11:56 AM

Just one question Kent, what do you want to be when you grow up?


DC

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 11:38 AM

Hey, Y'all,

The 'the earth is 6000 years old' crowd are not some cute or quaint group with a different take on the history of the earth.

They are ignorant, delusional fuckwits - and dangerous into the bargain.

Now, they have every right to be ignorant delusional fuckwits, and I will defend with my life their right to so choose.

However, that doesn't make them any less delusional, ignorant, fuckwitted or dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 11:30 AM

""Young Earth Creationists, as you know, generally believe that we are all children of Noah.""

We have a basic problem here.

Four males and four females cannot possibly constitute a viable gene pool for perpetuation of any species of mammal.

Whatever else you may believe, this is an irrefutable fact of life.

The result (in the very short term) would be birth defects and disabilities which would bring their existence as a species to an unavoidable dead end.

And since you believe that only those aboard the ark survived.......four of each is all you have to work with.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 11:19 AM

The oldest fossils known are stomatolites, which are dated to 2.5 billion years.

But you know how it goes--add a billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking about real Time.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Stu
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 10:58 AM

"Many Ancient Earth Naturalists believe, based on studies of the Y chromosome, that the most recent common paternal ancestor of humanity lived about 60,000 years ago. Young Earth Creationists, as you know, generally believe that we are all children of Noah."

Supposing this is true (I haven't read the scientific literature so any refs, send them through), it's still a heck of a leap from humanity having a common paternal ancestor 60k years ago to it being Noah, plus the fact don't creationists think the earth is only 6,000-odd years old?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 08:57 AM

The point is, Kent Davis, why are you telling us all this? If you succeed in convincing us all who will benefit?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 06:39 AM

Oh goody.

Two things about this thread excite me.

1. Richard Bridge and I may after all be on the same wavelength.

2. Pointing and laughing at people who exhibit irrational tendencies has been a popular sport since the days of paying to visit Bedlam. Long may the tradition continue.

Two things about this thread fail to excite me.

1. Having a pop at more mainstream religion is more fun than silly notions such as this, as you can outrage more people.

2. See point 2 of the the 'excite" bit, but without the last sentence.

Noticed how Kent dodges the insults and tries to answer as if he were rational? I have a brother in law who is happy clappy. He acts in a similar manner, (apart from when he told me I will burn in Hell.)

They visited over Xmas and I couldn't help myself. We have a nativity set of figures in porcelain and I hid the crib / manger and put some baby bell edam cheeses in there instead. Told him it was the little baby cheeses.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 01:33 AM

Thank you, Kent, I'll appreciate that. "What" is a simple question easily answered, but "why" is another matter entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Kent Davis
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 01:18 AM

Foolstroupe,

Viruses are not an example of life spontaneously arising from non-life. Whether viruses are life at all is a matter of debate. Yes, viruses are replicated in living cells. So are prions, and most would agree that prions are not life.

The cells in which viruses replicate are certainly alive. Viruses, some would argue, are an example of life arising from life. Others would argue that viruses are an example of non-life arising from life. Clearly they are not an example of life arising from non-life since, even if viruses are considered to have life, they derive that life from other life.

But I'm not here to debate that. If you and Louis Pasteur want to tangle, go for it. I've got my hands full trying to explain Young Earth Creationism.

Smokey, I am just trying to explain what YEC is. Saying why I beleive it is not really my purpose. However, I will answer your question, but I can't do it tonight. I've got to get up in less than 5 hours. Good night.

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 12:55 AM

Well, Smokey, of course it sounds logical to me. I wouldn't believe it otherwise.

Obviously, but though you find YEC 'strange' and at the same time 'logical' you haven't really said why. What makes a person take on this belief? Persuasion? Logical process?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 12:50 AM

Those of you responding to my YECH acronym...I hope you realize I was being ironic. Maybe some things need to be heard rather than read.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 12:35 AM

"In our present experience, life does not arise spontaneously from non-life."

Viruses .... ooops.... they are non-life (cannot reproduce by themselves) - they can invade and become life and reproduce, while destroying the host....

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Kent Davis
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 12:25 AM

Here are some more beliefs which are common to most Ancient Earth Naturalists (AEN). Following them is a Young Earth Creationist (YEC) response to those beliefs.

5. In our present experience, energy does not arise spontaneously from nothing.

6. In our present experience, matter does not arise spontaneously from nothing.

7. In our present experience, life does not arise spontaneously from non-life.

We do not see matter or energy spontaneously appearing from nothing, nor do we see life spontaneously arising from non-life. Sometimes we see what appear to be exceptions to these rules, but Isaac Newton and Louis Pasteur (among others) showed that these apparent exceptions are illusions. Either such events never occur or, if they occur, they occur exceedingly rarely. YEC is compatible with the idea that these events NEVER occur. In contrast, the currently accepted form of ANC requires that, at least once, matter and/or energy emerged from nothing and requires that, at least once, life arose spontaneously from non-life.   Nevertheless, ANC agrees that we do not see such events in our present experience.

Good night!

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 12:24 AM

"polygeneticism had mostly died out"

Ah - can't find the link - but very recently a new genetic line was found in a cave in Siberia, and it now appears that there WAS polygeneticism - that several different lines including Neanderthals and 'modern' man as well as this older strain, of which the modern closest relatives are still in New Guinea, all interbred.

Then there of course is this theory of The Other People, which The Biblical Literalists really cannot deny, if they wish to be consistent .... :-)

But then people can believe whatever they want, as long as they stop trying to bully and interfere in Science, for I am a FSM follower...

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Kent Davis
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 12:22 AM

Well, Smokey, of course it sounds logical to me. I wouldn't believe it otherwise.   

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 12:10 AM

So, yes, the idea that the universe is thousands of years old does seem strange to me. That says something about my raising, and it says something about my psychology but, of course, it says nothing about which view is correct. Einstein's theory seems strange to me. I believe it is true in spite of how strange it seems.

Surely the question was 'does it sound logical to you?' Hardly synonymous with 'strange'. Perhaps you might try to explain why your beliefs appear to defy logic.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Kent Davis
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 11:50 PM

______________________________________________________________

Thank you for all the thoughtful comments. Ebbie, as usual, asks an interesting and insightful question. I was raised as an Ancient Earth Creationist, believing that Genesis is true and also holding that the universe is billions of years old. So, yes, the idea that the universe is thousands of years old does seem strange to me. That says something about my raising, and it says something about my psychology but, of course, it says nothing about which view is correct. Einstein's theory seems strange to me. I believe it is true in spite of how strange it seems.   

Here is another belief common to both AEN and YEC:

4. All living humans share a common paternal ancestor and a common maternal ancestor. These common ancestors lived thousands of years ago (not millions of years ago), and therefore all humanity is one species, one "kind", one "blood".

For several generations, Ancient Earth Naturalists have been slowly moving toward the YEC position on this matter.   Some early Darwinists (though not Darwin himself) held to a polygenetic view of humanity; they thought that the races were actually different species. By the time of my childhood, in the 1960s, polygeneticism had mostly died out, but the mainstream view then was that the most recent common ancestor of humanity had lived well over a million years ago. Currently, many Ancient Earth Naturalists believe, based on mitochondrial DNA studies, that the most recent common maternal ancestor of humanity lived about 200,000 years ago. Many Ancient Earth Naturalists believe, based on studies of the Y chromosome, that the most recent common paternal ancestor of humanity lived about 60,000 years ago. Young Earth Creationists, as you know, generally believe that we are all children of Noah.

Kent
___________________________________________________________________

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Slag
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 11:47 PM

Wait! Wait! Where did Mr. Davis go??? Of course the universe is only 6000 years old! That is so obvious! Hear him out!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 09:30 PM

Science Vs Faith

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 09:28 PM

"I don't see any need for anyone to post a lengthy explanation..."

Possibly because someone is seeking to promote such a theory thru wider distribution. I DO wish that intentions were made clear, instead of suggesting that it simply a 'matter of interest'.

Reading the article on Wikipedia should clarify it for anyone really interested.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 09:12 PM

I don't see any need for anyone to post a lengthy explanation of "Young Earth creationism" here at Mudcat. It's already been explained at Wikipedia.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 08:40 PM

Thanks for that Janie.
Kents stated purpose was "to explain, to those who are interested, what Young Earth Creationism is".

It seems reasonable and polite to hear more about something that seems to have captured the interest of quite a few folks, regardless of ones views.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: maeve
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 08:37 PM

Hi, Kent. As Janie said...

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 08:35 PM

I have to say.. it's 'interesting' to see theories and ideas like YEC propounded, and to wonder exactly how they persist in the face of mountains of data showing why & how such theories cannot possibly be taken seriously in THIS day and age.

It says something about humans that the are ABLE to look strong evidence in the eye, and go on to 'believe' in something based on stories and wishful thinking.

...and I have been giving serious thought to the concerns about giving everyone the right to vote.... **sigh**

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Janie
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 08:28 PM

Hello, Kent.

Am curious to hear and learn more.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 08:21 PM

An interesting point Q.

A 97 year old neighbour of mine, once told me she never voted after her husband died (when she was 75). She said that many people tried to convince her to do so, that it was her duty, but she never caved in to their persistance. The reason she gave was as follows: She said that she never followed political issues, nor the politicians after her huisband died. So, she told me that she did not wish to vote and cancel out the vote of someone who did follow such things, and would know much more than she did on the issues and the people seeking office.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 08:19 PM

I wonder if the YECHs know about Oahspe?

I think we should introduce them... and then explain to both about The Urantia Book....
and then stand to the side and watch the fun....

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 08:13 PM

And yet people believe everybody should be encouraged to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 08:02 PM

Do the math

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 07:57 PM

Could the 2007 stats below be true?


•58% of the US adult population never reads another book after high school.
•42% of US college graduates never read another book.
•80% of US families did not buy or read a book last year.
•70% of US adults have not been in a bookstore in the last five years.
•57% of new books are not read to completion.
http://www.parapublishing.com/sites/para/resources/statistics.cfm
(data quoted by Para Publishing, who is quoting Jerrold Jenkins)

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 07:55 PM

Sorry that should be:

http://forum.rickross.com

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 07:53 PM

Another cult I guess for inclusion at:

http://www.rickross.com and

http://forum.rickros.com

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 07:50 PM

I read somewhere that the US Constitution guarantees the right of US citizens to believe whatever they want, no matter how irrational. Some believe this to be mandatory!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 07:49 PM

Doesn't exactly increase faith in democracy, does it?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Smokey.
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 07:33 PM

40% of Americans

That's frightening... can't be true, surely?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 07:23 PM

Yes, Richard,
Sumer is icumen in
Lhude sing cuccu!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 07:20 PM

From Wikipedia:

"Some Young Earth creationists claim that the lack of support for a Young Earth theory in professional science journals or among professional science organizations is due to discrimination and censorship.[8][9][10][11] However, the established scientific consensus is that young Earth creationism has no scientific basis. For example, a joint statement of InterAcademy Panel on International Issues (IAP) by 68 national and international science academies lists as established scientific fact that Earth is approximately 4.5 billion years old and has undergone continual change; that life, according to the evidence of earliest fossils, appeared on Earth at least 2.5 billion years ago and has subsequently taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve; and that the genetic code of all organisms living today, including humans, clearly indicates their common primordial origin.[12]

According to a Gallup poll in December 2010, around 40% of Americans believe in YEC, rising to over 50% among Republicans but reducing strongly with level of education (only 22% of respondents with postgraduate degrees compared with 47% of those with high school only or less).[13]"

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: mousethief
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 07:14 PM

If the Earth were really young it wouldn't have so many wrinkles.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: gnu
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 06:58 PM

Shimrod... Not nice to call someone a troll until after a thousand posts. >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 06:42 PM

I could also uses improved typing skills. But a laugh will be nice.

Cuckoos early this year.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 06:15 PM

Is this for real or is it some sort of trollish 'wind-up' (English slang for provocation)?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: framus
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 05:59 PM

Are young earth creationists not just very junior worms?