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BS: Young Earth Creationism

Greg F. 02 Jan 12 - 03:02 PM
Amos 02 Jan 12 - 02:51 PM
Paul Burke 02 Jan 12 - 02:46 PM
Bill D 02 Jan 12 - 02:29 PM
GUEST,999 02 Jan 12 - 02:10 PM
Greg F. 02 Jan 12 - 02:08 PM
Uncle_DaveO 02 Jan 12 - 02:04 PM
Bill D 02 Jan 12 - 01:54 PM
Greg F. 02 Jan 12 - 01:04 PM
GUEST,josepp 02 Jan 12 - 12:36 PM
GUEST 02 Jan 12 - 12:29 PM
Stringsinger 02 Jan 12 - 11:58 AM
Bill D 02 Jan 12 - 11:07 AM
Greg F. 02 Jan 12 - 10:20 AM
DMcG 02 Jan 12 - 06:27 AM
JohnInKansas 02 Jan 12 - 05:23 AM
Dave MacKenzie 20 Jan 11 - 08:18 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 20 Jan 11 - 05:42 AM
DMcG 20 Jan 11 - 02:59 AM
The Fooles Troupe 20 Jan 11 - 01:51 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 19 Jan 11 - 06:19 PM
Little Hawk 18 Jan 11 - 03:08 PM
Bill D 18 Jan 11 - 01:41 PM
Little Hawk 18 Jan 11 - 12:44 PM
Stu 18 Jan 11 - 10:50 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 18 Jan 11 - 10:31 AM
The Fooles Troupe 18 Jan 11 - 01:05 AM
John P 17 Jan 11 - 11:27 PM
Dave MacKenzie 17 Jan 11 - 08:10 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Jan 11 - 07:48 PM
GUEST,TIA 17 Jan 11 - 07:47 PM
The Fooles Troupe 17 Jan 11 - 07:32 PM
The Fooles Troupe 17 Jan 11 - 07:29 PM
Jack the Sailor 17 Jan 11 - 06:39 PM
Jack the Sailor 17 Jan 11 - 06:36 PM
Little Hawk 17 Jan 11 - 12:25 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Jan 11 - 08:37 AM
DMcG 17 Jan 11 - 08:28 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 17 Jan 11 - 08:23 AM
The Fooles Troupe 17 Jan 11 - 07:40 AM
The Fooles Troupe 17 Jan 11 - 06:24 AM
Stu 17 Jan 11 - 04:19 AM
DMcG 17 Jan 11 - 02:57 AM
DMcG 17 Jan 11 - 02:04 AM
Kent Davis 16 Jan 11 - 10:39 PM
Smokey. 16 Jan 11 - 06:52 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Jan 11 - 05:56 PM
DMcG 16 Jan 11 - 05:20 PM
Kent Davis 16 Jan 11 - 04:48 PM
DMcG 16 Jan 11 - 04:33 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 03:02 PM

Greg... I wonder how long it's been since you even attempted to 'get thru' to a 'true believer'.

Its been quite a while, Bill, because, apparently unlike you, after a lifetime of experience spanning some 65 years, I'm able to recognize a lost cause and a futile waste of time and energy when I see it.

Go thou and do likewise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 02:51 PM

In the dark, one crock of shit smells about the same as another.

Better to light one candle than to stand about in a cloud of unknowing smelling horse manure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Paul Burke
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 02:46 PM

however as darwinism gained popular acceptance many churchians adjusted their teaching ,perhaps thinking to gain acceptance from evolutionist scientists.
dont think it worked so well as far as i know.


No, they were intellectually honest, and the scientific evidence was so clear that, even with the many problems(*) of Darwin's schema in the science of the time, they accepted that natural selection is a far better explanation of the biological world than the story in Genesis. They then understood that Genesis was a metaphorical description of God's interaction with his creation rather than a complete factual account. That was a break with the past in some respects, but other parts of the Bible had always been interpreted as metaphor or allegory, so the change was in the end not too traumatic. It also marked perhaps for the Church of England, a step on the path that took them from an unthinking supporter of State power to a more thinking view of the origins of morality. Some may not think that a good thing, but they at least believe that they can get souls into Heaven without requiring them to deny the proven.

(*) Problems like:

1. No known mechanism of inheritance- the discovery of Mendel's work forty years later started science on the investigatory path that is still going on, but has led to a much deeper understanding of the mechanisms of Life.

2. No known way the Sun could have produced energy in sufficient quantities for the millions of years required by Darwin's slow selection of minute reproductive advantages. Fifty years passed before the discovery of radioactivity gave the first hints that the Sun has enough energy available to last for not just millions, but many billions, of years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 02:29 PM

Greg... I wonder how long it's been since you even attempted to 'get thru' to a 'true believer'.

Did you ever play with silly putty? It will shatter if you throw it hard against a brick wall, but you can s-l-o-w-l-y mold it into a shape if you are patient.

Insults serve ONLY to make someone retreat and harden their defenses and close their mind tighter. A little teasing and patient Socratic dialogue can sometimes get someone to relax and allow a new thought....and maybe THEIR children will benefit. Education is a process, not an edit or a threat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 02:10 PM

I fail to see what an individual's belief in a supreme being has to do with anyone else. Basically, people have a right to their beliefs. That doesn't give them the right to tell me about it.

When proselytizing people come to my door I politely ask them to leave. If they don't, I tell them to leave. If they still don't, I start talking in tongues. Religious, political and other.

Yer gabbit shafling corderum ragables fernucormun. BEASTS! FORNICATORS!

I get very very few second visits.


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 02:08 PM

sometimes I can make a start on getting thru to them if I don't begin with direct insults.

No, Bill you can't get thru to a "true believer" who chooses believe outrageous bullshit and to live and operate in a fact-free enviroment, and you are wastting your time trying.

If these people could think critically, they wouldn't believe the arrant bullshit that they obviously do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 02:04 PM

LEJ alleged (pun intended) that:

Science is essentially a collection of known facts about physical porcesses (sic)

No, LEJ, science is a process (and, loosely, those who carry it out) which is essentially organized curiosity. The organization referred to there essentially resides in rules like the Scientific Method and the principles of free publication of results.

The product of science constitutes technology. (Your "known facts", LEJ.)

And the application of technology is engineering.

And of course many who engage in science also engage in engineering.

The confusion of these categories with each other (sometimes even in the minds of scientists and engineers) is a great source of popular misunderstanding of what goes on.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 01:54 PM

...given the trend of responses so far, I am not sure that a course... or even suggestions of a reading list ...on "How to Think" would accomplish much .

One of the wonders of being human is how frustrating it can be to cope with even those you basically agree with.

But...Greg F...they are NOT "...all weak-minded ignorant fu*kwits...", and *I* never "humor" them. But sometimes I can make a start on getting thru to them if I don't begin with direct insults.


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 01:04 PM

Many people also believe that the Holocaust never happened, that people are regularly abducted by aliens and have horrific experiments performed on them aboard spaceships, that them nig***r are a degenerate race cursed by God, that the U.S. Civil War had nothing to do with the issue of chattel slavery & on & on & on.

They'reall weak-minded ignorant fu*kwits & its time people stopped humouring them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 12:36 PM

/////But, why have and do so many (around the world) adhere to religious belief?

Because they were told what to believe by their parents/schools/pastors.////

False. Many people believe in a religion against all advice from family and friends not to do so. Ultimately, people believe because they want to not because they are told to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 12:29 PM

////Neither you nor I nor anyone else thinks He created the universe yesterday. That's a "straw man".

No it's not,////

In a way, it is. It points out a type of weakness in the argument. It does not refute the argument.


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 11:58 AM

Precepts taken from religious doctrine can't be classified as science. There is no actual scientific process that has taken place to define either AEN or YEC or any other acronym with the exception of provable scientific processes such as DNA, RNA etc.

This YEC or AEN enters the realm loosely of philosophy and has a "metaphysical" tinge to it, not a scientific explanation of events.

I'm not sure what the value of this acronymic parsing is. I don't see that it makes our world a better place to live.

Doctrine separated from educational models as to how society can best be benefitted is useless to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 11:07 AM

I have recently finished reading The Panda's Thumb by Stephen Jay Gould. (You can read excerpts at that Google Books link)

It is one of my recommendations in a list of books I have tentatively titled "How to Think". (I have been planning a thread on this for weeks now....this may be the impetus to get me organized.)

"The Panda's Thumb" is an exploration of topics in Natural History, with many examples showing how the discussion and study of **evolution** has been confused and misunderstood.

The point is: it is not enough to be 'for' or 'against' the idea of evolution.... it is just too complex to dismiss OR accept based on various simplistic arguments.....and Gould goes into all the pitfalls that many on both sides encounter.

Those who already accept the concept of evolution would find exceptional explanations of just what is at issue...and discover that there are several camps, even among those who do accept it.

Those who resist the very idea of evolution need to explore the carefully organized points and become aware that accepting evolution does not necessarily conflict with notions of some 'higher power'.
(I really doubt that most hard-core creationists will manage to grasp either the book's explanations or the overall intent....but one can always hope....)


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 10:20 AM

They're not back, John - they never went away.

Its way past time that the general populace statred to regard them as the dangerous lunatics they are, instead of smiling and looking the other way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 06:27 AM

Valiantly attempting to leave the specific topic aside, it always strikes me as strange that a people who, collectively and individually, set great store on the right of the individual and, compared to Europe and many other cultures, strive really hard to minimise any sort of state interference in their lives, can go along with the idea of requiring such-and-such to be taught in a specific way though an entire state. Allow it, by all means, but require it? Very odd.


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 05:23 AM

Agree with all above who have said this is getting to be a worn out subject, but this is a new year and:

T-H-E-Y-'-R-E--B-A-C-K

New year brings new attacks on evolution in schools

Legislative actions in New Hampshire and Indiana beset widely accepted theory

By Stephanie Pappas
LiveScience
1/1/2012

The new year is bringing new controversy over teaching evolution in public schools, with two bills in New Hampshire seeking to require teachers to teach the theory more as philosophy than science.

Meanwhile, an Indiana state senator has introduced a bill that would allow school boards to require the teaching of creationism.

***

I REFUSE to comment on these bills.

For background for those still awake to the subject, MSNBC provides some useful(?) information at:

7 Theories on the Origin of Life

or:

The Top 10 Intelligent Designs (or Creation Myths)

You can read about the legislation at the first link if you like.

The other two links are - maybe - actually interesting. (They're both slide shows, but not as boring as some of that ilk.)

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:18 AM

I'd have thought that someone who only quoted (or cited) the Bible in a Theology paper would have been marked down.


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 05:42 AM

This still rattling on?

I have no problem with people using ancient stories to bounce off their sense of morality, but to revise both science and history in order to make it all relevant?

Look, I know a bloke who learned Klingon and goes to Star Trek conventions, even flying out to The States and Japan for them. Good for him, and we all need a hobby. BUT.. if he was in the pub telling me that the borg exists and that Spock existed (will exist?) then I would smile, sup up and say "Is that the time?"

Luckily, he hasn't got that far yet. Give him time....

Perhaps the same time that any fad needs to become a superstition and then received by those for whom it is useful. Control the masses? Superstition, every time mate, every single time. The King doesn't understand me but my imaginary friend does. We all need a crutch eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 02:59 AM

True story - when a friend of mine was 11 he answered the question on a Physics paper "What is mass?" by saying it was the main service of the Catholic Church.


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 01:51 AM

It is 'beyond belief' to use Biblical quotes for support of a paper on subjects such as biology and chemistry, but acceptable to use in in Arts subjects, History, Philosophy, etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 06:19 PM

jack- i certainly have not written hate mail to evolutionists ,though i dont dispute it happens, maybe more on your side of the pond?.i dont condone it and it,s counterproductive to the cause of Christ.
little hawk is moderater as usual and i,m sure he would pass that paper.i could think of some here that would fail very badly!.
of course i am firmly fixed as a creationist but like to think i try to understand the opposing position,but admittedly will counter arguments if i can.
so maybe that plilosophy paper would be a challenge to me in that respect , bill.

tonque in cheek award to LH re chongo!?.


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 03:08 PM

"they simply could NOT get the point that understanding was the goal, not just asserting and defending."

Right! That is what troubles me about a great many people on this forum, Bill. They just assert and defend whatever they already are set upon. They have no actual desire to understand anything that they don't already believe anyway.


"What we learned was that the process of getting folks who were brought up in a tradition to just learn 'thinking' was really hard when all they were concerned with was resisting anything which even looked like a threat to their positions."

Right again. That is the essential problem in most dialogue nowadays, both in this forum, on the media, and in society in general. All most people are concerned with is resisting anything which looks like a threat to their established position. This is true of people on BOTH sides of most political and religious and other controversies here, regardless of which side they have jumped in on.

I would not say it's true of you. You do think about things, and you do make efforts to understand a different viewpoint. So do a few others here. Most people don't, they just start "throwing poop" like these guys...


Howlers


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 01:41 PM

Many years ago when I was a graduate teaching fellow in Philosophy, I was responsible for one lecture/discussion section out of a 400 person 101 class.
The professor wanted each student to write a short paper to balance the pure memorization and guesswork of the usual exams. The first topic he picked, to 'stimulate interest' was "The Existence of God"....big mistake! The point was to get the students to show they understood the arguments for & against and thus to better understand what Philosophical inquiry was all about....and we graduate students explained several times....s-l-o-w-l-y... that the goal was NOT to simply state your belief and defend it, but to show what was usually done in various systems.

   Well, when paper grading time came, I'll bet 75% of the papers..(this was in Kansas!)... did exactly what we told them not to do!...and 95% of those were simply variations of "I believe in the Bible and the word of God as printed, and all those other theories are deluded".
    I had to grade some pretty good students at C or below because they simply could NOT get the point that understanding was the goal, not just asserting and defending.
   There was however, in another section an exception...the other grad student brought me a paper written by a young Black student that was exceptional...he had explained that although he was a serious Christian and held his beliefs strongly, he saw the value of understanding what others thought...and why.... and he went on to go a clear, concise paper doing exactly what was requested.

What we learned was that the process of getting folks who were brought up in a tradition to just learn 'thinking' was really hard when all they were concerned with was resisting anything which even looked like a threat to their positions.
In future papers, we tried to choose less knee-jerk topics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 12:44 PM

Looks to me like there's a great deal of fear on both sides of this particular issue. Hate mail on both sides too. That's why these threads always draw so much reaction and go on and on almost forever.

But what does surprise me is that no one has objected to Chongo's provocative theory about the origins of humanity. That indicates that you people are more open-minded, progressive, and tolerant than I would ever have surmised. ;-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Stu
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 10:50 AM

"i cant imagine why the lecturer was afraid to fail anyone who did,nt address the subject.i would fail it too,if so."

Read my earlier post Pete - scientists get hate mail from creationists. As I said, in palaeontology circles it's almost considered a rite of passage. Not really very nice at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 10:31 AM

what was the subject of this course paper foolestroupe?
i cant imagine why the lecturer was afraid to fail anyone who did,nt address the subject.i would fail it too,if so.
i can however understand scientists afraid to admit believing in creation or ID.some have lost jobs for that.

steve-have a nice day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 01:05 AM

People who are sufficiently steeped in 'Religion', do not care about 'Science', other than as a threat.

I've previously mentioned about my Uni lecturer friend who was distressed to tears when he read a submitted course paper that quoted only from the Bible... he really didn't WANT to fail the student, for he was afraid that he might lose his job ... or at least end up on the front pages of the papers ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: John P
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 11:27 PM

So, Kent, you are in favor of teaching Creationism in our schools. Are you suggesting we set aside the Constitution, or do you really believe Creationism is science? Or do you think Creationism isn't religion? What's the rationale?


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 08:10 PM

Has anybody watched 'What is Reality?' (BBC2 21:00 GMT) yet?


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 07:48 PM

I am quite glad to be "more" than the fifth ape. For one thing apes are incapable of performing and enjoying folk music.

Yeah but fifth apes are the only ones capable of worrying about tomorrow and whether their stocks and shares are up or down. What's more, unlike the other four apes, fifth apes have an aversion to wiping their bottoms with their bare hands and spending hours picking off and eating lice from their partners. Oh, what pleasures we forgo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 07:47 PM

Sorry Kent.
AEN is totally falsifiable, and I already gave the hypothetical evidence above that would falsify it. I am still waitng for the hypothetical for YEC.


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 07:32 PM

"For one thing apes are incapable of performing and enjoying folk music. "

And that is 'A Bad Thing' ...:-)

:-P


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 07:29 PM

"you do not understand the difference between a simulation and the real thing"

But it is claimed that Creation is 'a work of art' so it seems there is little practical difference ... :-)

Then of course we have religions that actually claim that our existence is but merely a dream in the mind of their magic invisible sky fairy ...

And one has to ask, just what is The Real Thing ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 06:39 PM

>>>I suspect that most of us agree that we are more than the "fifth ape".

Why, the quintessence of belief in God and afterlife in one little sentence! Why would you want to be "more than" the fifth ape? Why do we have to be different, apart? I'm over the moon that I'm a member of the hallowed ape fraternity, wonderful noble creatures that we all are, all five manifestations of us, and I have no desire to be "more than," any more than I wish to return to anything more than mere stardust one day. Did I say "mere?" Nah - it's an honour! <<<

I am quite glad to be "more" than the fifth ape. For one thing apes are incapable of performing and enjoying folk music.


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 06:36 PM

>>>"One cannot experimentally create a universe."

You obviously do not understand what scientists do with their mathematical universe creation models. <<<

I would say that you do not understand the difference between a simulation and the real thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 12:25 PM

As Chongo has patiently explained, Man was the result of an illicit liason between a Gorilla and a Howler Monkey. Shocking but true! Read all about it here:

The Origins of Man


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 08:37 AM

evolutionisms mud to man via monkey theory.

Give it a rest, pete. You're displaying your wilful ignorance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 08:28 AM

But then, from Yahoo Answers Questions I have seen, many US 'Protestants'. do not accept their lineage of Christianity as being traced thru The RC Church, posing such revealing questions as "Are Catholics really Christians?"
Thanks for that, Foolestroupe. I agree that many other Christian sects also accept the earth is much older than 6000 years. Whether a specific group of believers is included or not, though, would be a distraction. Many believers who take the Bible very seriously do not think that the New Testament asserts that Genesis should be taken literally. My suspicion is that it is many more than do take it literally, but the question arises how do you get any figures in support of that? (Looking for evidence, folks! The scientific approach strikes again!). The size of the RC church was something I had in the trivia-loaded part of my brain, and being hierarchical it is possible to make a statement about 'What the RC Church' beliefs are. Ditto Anglicanism.

Consulting Wiki, I see I was right about RC being largest. I was wrong about the position of Anglicanism, but it is still one of the largest groupings. I'd completely forgotten about the Orthodox churches, which are substantial, but a minute or twos search didn't reveal what age they think the Universe is, and I lost interest... Similarly Baptists are one of the largest groups, but as individual churches do not necessarily believe the same as their neighbouring churches it is impossible to make a reliable statement about what Baptists think the age of the earth is.

If anyone knows how go give a breakdown similar to Wiki on who believes what about the age of the earth, I'd be glad to see it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 08:23 AM

jack-i suppose it just goes to show that what is scientific "fact" one day has to be shelved another day.

kent-thanks for providing references on my behalf.probably done in a fraction of the time it would take me to type it!.you have done much better than i in presenting YEC and i hope you continue to chip in as opportunity arises

dmcg-IMO jesus,jude and paul are referring to literal characters though i suppose some might think otherwise IMO to accomodate evolutionisms mud to man via monkey theory.It will be interesting to see how you read it,as sort of theologically neutral.
ps-john speaks of cain killing his brother. 1 john 3 12 cf gen 4 8.
thanks for question and i appreciate its not the main argument.


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 07:40 AM

"The largest single group of Christians is the Roman Catholic Church. I think the Anglican community is next. Both believe in an ancient earth, not one 6000 years old."

As far as I know The Lutherans (except for a few esoteric spin offs who use the name 'Lutheran') also accept a 'scientific' age not a 'theologically derived' age.

But then, from Yahoo Answers Questions I have seen, many US 'Protestants'. do not accept their lineage of Christianity as being traced thru The RC Church, posing such revealing questions as "Are Catholics really Christians?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 06:24 AM

Krautmeyer's Ark


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Stu
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 04:19 AM

"the most quoted case were on dino blood cells eg scientific american mag dec 2010.as i understand it-stuff that should have disappeared a long time since is puzzling scientists that cling to their billions of years faith.seems to me they are as blinkered as as you accuse creationists to be.maybe you have an explanation that can help them out!"

I'm not at all sure why you would describe them as blinkered. They are breaking important new ground here, and in terms of fossilisation the discovery of surviving organic elements in bone is a really exciting new field. I know people involved in the search for biometric markers within dinosaur bone (indeed we've donated some bone my wife collected to this research) and they are breaking new ground. As for some of the stuff due out on dinosaur feathers - it's going to be exciting.

Like I said, science opens the door to doubt. Nothing is above questioning and the discovery of organic tissue in dinosaur bone (and it's possible it's not only in the bones) doesn't mean it's only been there since Noah's flood - it means we need to incorporate these findings and alter our current view of how fossilisation works. Unlike creationists, scientists are involved in a process of learning rather than attempting to support a fixed and intractable dogmatic opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 02:57 AM

Well, I've reached work so naturally I still haven't had a chance to look those references up, but I though I'd better explain why I raised to question so that pete can tailor his response appropriately. First of all, this has nothing at all to with the main discussion (creationism v science) but is about the internal consistancy of the creationist case. I am sorry that it only got raised in the closing stages, so to speak, but there we are.

The largest single group of Christians is the Roman Catholic Church. I think the Anglican community is next. Both believe in an ancient earth, not one 6000 years old. So the idea that the New Testament 'asserts' Genesis implies that these two groups - amongst others - are misunderstanding or wilfully ignoring something in the same texts the the creationists are using seems pretty significant. I was wondering just which 'chapter and verse' is being treated in this careless fashion.

But to repeat, it has nothing to do with the main argument.


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 02:04 AM

I'm on my way to work here, so don't have time to look at those references yet, but I will do. Thanks for your input. At first glance, though, I don't see they give more support to a literal reading of the bible than the narrative interpretion Richard referred to, any more more than Christ gave instructions that exclusively related to the welfare of Samaritans.


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Kent Davis
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 10:39 PM

DMcG,

While I was writing what was to be my final post on this thread, you wrote, "I'm not sure where in the New Testament Genesis is specifically affirmed..." I had already posted before I read your (implied) question to guest, Pete. I see he hasn't answered yet (though no doubt he could), so I will answer.

Here are a few places in the NT which affirm the earliest chapters of Genesis:

Matthew 19:4-6 - He* answered, "Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female**, 5and said, 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'***? 6So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate."
* Jesus
**Genesis 1:27
** *Genesis @:24

Acts 17:24-28 - The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, 25nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. 26And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, 28for

"'In him we live and move and have our being';
as even some of your own poets have said,

"'For we are indeed his offspring.'

See also Luke 3:38, John 1:1-3, Acts 14:15-17, Romans 5:12,14; I Corinthians 15:22,45; I Timothy 2:13,14, Jude 14, among others.

I hope you find this helpful. Thank you again (and thank you all) for an interesting and informative discussion. Good night.

Kent


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 06:52 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlM52fUrNz4


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 05:56 PM

I suspect that most of us agree that we are more than the "fifth ape".

Why, the quintessence of belief in God and afterlife in one little sentence! Why would you want to be "more than" the fifth ape? Why do we have to be different, apart? I'm over the moon that I'm a member of the hallowed ape fraternity, wonderful noble creatures that we all are, all five manifestations of us, and I have no desire to be "more than," any more than I wish to return to anything more than mere stardust one day. Did I say "mere?" Nah - it's an honour!


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 05:20 PM

Well, goodbye, then Kent. I'm glad to hear you've learnt some things; as I admitted some posts ago, the stuff on Chief Mountain was new to me. I don't see that it causes any difficulty, but nevertheless it is new to me and I'm grateful to you for that.

Round about post 50 someone asked what the point of this discussion is, as we doubt if you expected to convince us and I, for one, didn't expect to convince you. My answer to that question is that it is worth demonstrating to the undecided that there is a good answer to all the points you raise, as indeed I assume you felt the same about our points. LH or Chongo suggested what seems an age ago that we should both admit we don't know and we should admit this to the undecided. I disagree; I think we should present the evidence of why we believe what we do, try to show flaws in each others and make the best case we can. Then the 'undecideds' are in the best possible position to make an informed choice. You have given a sort of 'closing speech' above. I will finish mine - except in response to anything Pete may still have to say, to draw the 'juries' attention to the number of direct questions still lying in your and pete's in-tray and invite them to draw their own conclusions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Kent Davis
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 04:48 PM

To anyone irritated or offended by the poem and song,

I thought they were funny. I posted them because I thought it was time for a little levity.   

And yes, I do know that no one thinks we are descended from modern monkeys. And I do know that we are the "fifth ape", and I suspect that most of us agree that we are more than the "fifth ape". And I do know that, contrary to the poem and song, monkeys (and other animals) sometimes do the "bad" things mentioned therein. Except that what they do is not really "bad" or "good", but merely what comes naturally. It's different with us, as I know you also believe.

John P.,
Yes, you did miss my answer. Please see the post of 11 Jan 11, 8:16 P.M. In one word, "Yes".   However, you need not worry. There is little chance of me getting my wish. Also, even if children were exposed to both sides, no doubt many would still agree with you. I spent all twenty-two years of my education in public school and yet look at me.

Sugarfoot Jack,

What you said about igneous intrusions is all very interesting but does not apply to the particular rocks we were discussing (Chief Mountain, Assynt, Knockan Crag). Those particular rocks are believed by your fellow AEN folks to have undergone metamorphosis elsewhere, and moved to their present location via an overthrust fault.

To all,

I've enjoyed this discussion and I hope you have too. I've learned some things and I hope you can say the same. I may look up this thread from time to time, but I think I've said all I need to say, so I will probably contribute no more.

Kent


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Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jan 11 - 04:33 PM

this was because of NT affirmation of genesis

You've got me intriged there, pete. I'm not sure where in the New Testament Genesis is specifically affirmed, as distinct from the Torah and other writings. The nearest I can think of is the start of Matthew (which as you will know but others may not) traces the geneology of Joseph from Abraham, but Abraham is far later in Genesis than the accounts of the creation and the flood and there is no attempt to trace Joseph back to Adam, for example.

Is that what you mean?


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