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Lyr Req: Map Ker Dew (God's Dear Son) in Cornish

GUEST,gaeilgesinger 02 Jan 11 - 07:33 PM
GUEST 03 Jan 11 - 03:58 AM
Treacle Bolly 03 Jan 11 - 09:18 AM
GUEST,squeezer 03 Jan 11 - 11:54 AM
GUEST 06 Jan 11 - 08:59 AM
GUEST,squeezer 06 Jan 11 - 08:59 AM
Cats 06 Jan 11 - 09:45 AM
GUEST,Crowdercref 06 Jan 11 - 01:35 PM
GUEST,squeezer 06 Jan 11 - 03:53 PM
GUEST,Guest 07 Jan 11 - 10:16 AM
GUEST,squeezer 07 Jan 11 - 10:48 AM
greg stephens 07 Jan 11 - 10:52 AM
GUEST,squeezer 07 Jan 11 - 07:05 PM
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Subject: Lyr Req: Map Ker Dew (God's Dear Son) in Cornish
From: GUEST,gaeilgesinger
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 07:33 PM

I have a recording of Richard Grendall's singing of Map Ker Dew or God's Dear Son in the Cornish Language. I'm looking for lyrics for the wording and translation so I can learn the song. Any suggestions? Resources? Thanks.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Map Ker Dew (God's Dear Son) in Cornish
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 03:58 AM

Oops. Checking name again. Singer is Richard Gendall. Thanks for any help/direction available.
Denice Brown


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Map Ker Dew (God's Dear Son) in Cornish
From: Treacle Bolly
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 09:18 AM

Suggest you contact somebody at Gorseth Kernow (Cornish cultural foundation) which is easily found through Google and has lots of e-mail contact names.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Map Ker Dew (God's Dear Son) in Cornish
From: GUEST,squeezer
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 11:54 AM

If you are looking for English texts, one is in the Oxford Book of Carols. The note says that words and tune were from Gilbert, 1822, with another version of nine verses noted from "A Good Christmas Box", Dudley 1846. The OBC version has omitted some anti-Semitic lines.

Earlier were eight verses found in a Cornish manuscript by the antiquarian Gilbert Davies who published them in 1822 in "Some Ancient Christmas Carols." Perhaps Richard Grendall was singing those.

A suberb recording, using other(and better)verses with part of the OBC text,is by Vivien Ellis and Helen Chadwick on The Melstock Band's "Glad Tidings", 2004.

Possibly some of either the OBC and/or Melstock's verses correspond to Davies' MSS.

Well, I could type out those Melstock and OBC verses here if you really want, once I find the time. Let me know.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Map Ker Dew (God's Dear Son) in Cornish
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 08:59 AM

The OBC version, six verses from Gilbert.

1. God's dear son without beginning, whom the wicked priests did scorn,
the only wise without all sinning on this blessed day was born
to save us all from sin and thrall when we in Satan's chains were bound,
and shed his blood to do us good with many a purple bleeding wound.

2. In Bethlehem, King David's city, Mary's babe had sweet creation;
God and Man endued with pity, and a savior of each nation.
Yet Jewry land with cruel hand both first and last his power denied;
when he was born they did him scorn and showed him malice when he died.

3. No kingly robes nor golden treasure decked the birthday of God's son,
no pompous train at all took pleasure to this King of Kings to run.
No mantle brave could Jesus have upon his cradle for to lie,
no music charms in nurse's arms to sing the babe a lullaby.

4. Yet as Mary sat in solace by our Saviour's first beginning,
hosts of angels from God's palace sounded sweet from heaven singing;
yea, heaven and Earth at Jesus' birth with sweet melodious tunes abound,
and everything for Jewry's king upon the Earth gave cheerful sound.

5 Then with angel-love inspir-ed three wise princes from the East
to Bethlehem as they desir-ed came where as our Lord did rest,
and there they laid before the maid unto her son, her God, her King,
their offerings sweet, as was most meet unto so great a power to bring.

6. Now to him that hath redeemed us by his precious death and passion,
and us sinners so esteemed us to buy dearly this salvation,
yield lasting fame, that still the name of Jesus may be honoured here,
and let us say that Christmas Day is still the best day of the year.

The anti-Semtic sentiment in this version has in fact been toned down - the note to the song in the OBC says, "Here, as elsewhere, we have removed an accusation against the Jews." The first verse of the Melstock version is much the same as this version's except that they sing (I think) "ungodly folk" rather than "wicked priests" - a sensible change to remove any taint of anti-Semitism.

Verse 3 is also the same as in the Melstock version :-

1. as above

2. No place at all for our dear Saviour in Judea could be found,
yet sweet Mary's mild behaviour patiently upon the ground
her child did place in vile disgrace where oxen in their stalls did feed;
no midwife mild had this sweet child, nor women's help that mothers need.

3. as above

4. Remember then this bless-ed morning - sweet salvation came unto us
when that Christ with love adorn-ed gently strove with love to win us
that mankind should be of God's fold and feed like lambs on Zion's hill:
be not unkind but bear in mind how Christ does us remember still.

The OBC reproduces Gilbert's four-part harmony. I can send you a photocopy but will have to get cookies to exchange PMs.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Map Ker Dew (God's Dear Son) in Cornish
From: GUEST,squeezer
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 08:59 AM

Sorry, forgot handle to last post.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Map Ker Dew (God's Dear Son) in Cornish
From: Cats
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 09:45 AM

Suggest you contact Mike O'Connor via his Lyngham House Music website as he has done all the research on this and I know sings and plays it


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Map Ker Dew (God's Dear Son) in Cornish
From: GUEST,Crowdercref
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 01:35 PM

Hi Guys, I have very little more to add to the Guest posting above. An easy secondary source is: http://www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com/Hymns_and_Carols/gods_dear_son_without_beginning.htm

We do not have a secure date for the lyrics or tune as now recorded.
A handful of carols in Cornish mss have similar tunes, some clearly diatonic, some modal. We could be looking at the 17th century as the time when the carol took the form we have here.
The words were noted down by Gilbert in the 1820s.
Richard Gendall translated the words into late period Cornish.
There is no record of it being sung in Cornish in historical times, but such records are very sparse anyway.

In c. 1680 William Scawen (1600-1689) of St. Germans wrote that carol singing had, in the past, helped keep the Cornish language vibrant.   It is not known what dates or places he is referring to. No old Cornish language carols have been found. Then most other church music was not congregational; most worshippers were illiterate. Use of vernacular language and repeated refrains would have allowed congregational involvement.

I'd go with any sensible combination of the words recorded by Gilbert or Sandys.

Bledhen noweth da!

Crowdercref


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Map Ker Dew (God's Dear Son) in Cornish
From: GUEST,squeezer
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 03:53 PM

I googled "Some Ancient Christmas Carols" and came up with a facsimile of Davies Gilbert's book on books.google.co.uk/books. In his preface, which includes some lines from a mummers' play in which the doctor (!) is killed, Gilbert asserts that the eight carols were performed "up to the latter part of the late century" and that he has preserved them exactly.

The tunes are in two-part harmony, and the carols are :-

1.   The Lord at first did Adam make
2.   When God at first created Man
3.   A Virgin most pure
4.   When righteous Joseph wedded was
5.   Hark! hark! what news the Angels bring
6.   Whilst Shepherds were watching their flocks
7.   God's dear Son
8.   Let all who are to mirth inclined.

The harmony to God's dear Son is different from any harmony line in the OBC, where it is in four parts, and the order of verses is slightly different from the version I posted earlier. Also in OBC are 1 and 5 (two versions there of 5), a note to 5 saying "apparently less ancient than the others".

I haven't seen the melody to no.6 before. A note says that it is "A Psalm Tune".

Crowdercref, do you know anything about Davies Gilbert? I wonder if he was an ancestor of Sam Gilbert of Laugherne who gave a version of Limady to Baring Gould about 1890.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Map Ker Dew (God's Dear Son) in Cornish
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 10:16 AM

Guest Squeezer you should check out wikipedia for a biography of Davies Gilbert - a well-known Cornishman.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Map Ker Dew (God's Dear Son) in Cornish
From: GUEST,squeezer
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 10:48 AM

Yes, I did that but the entry didn't mention singing descendents. Never mind, just a thought.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Map Ker Dew (God's Dear Son) in Cornish
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 10:52 AM

I have checked this thread and a bit of google and find no references for a Cornish language version. Are we to take it that the Cornish is a modern translation? Can anyone point to anything old?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Map Ker Dew (God's Dear Son) in Cornish
From: GUEST,squeezer
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 07:05 PM

Yes, I think that's the case going on Crowdercerf's post of 6/1. Except that although Richard Grendall did his translation relatively recently, he used an old form of Cornish. Davies Gilbert's (English) version was sung towards the end of the 18th cent.


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