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Help identify this native American song...

GUEST,GUEST - Robyn 05 Jan 11 - 02:14 AM
GUEST,Guest, Robyn, 05 Jan 11 - 06:02 AM
GUEST,Dani 05 Jan 11 - 06:42 AM
bugulugs 05 Jan 11 - 07:05 PM
GUEST,Lynn W 06 Jan 11 - 02:31 PM
GUEST 06 Jan 11 - 04:46 PM
bugulugs 06 Jan 11 - 09:31 PM
GUEST,samvriti 30 Aug 11 - 04:33 AM
GUEST 01 Nov 12 - 07:56 PM
Janie 01 Nov 12 - 08:37 PM
GUEST,999 01 Nov 12 - 08:44 PM
GUEST,leeneia 02 Nov 12 - 12:26 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 02 Nov 12 - 03:06 PM
Acme 02 Nov 12 - 07:53 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Nov 12 - 08:39 PM
Janie 02 Nov 12 - 09:48 PM
Janie 02 Nov 12 - 10:27 PM
GUEST,999 03 Nov 12 - 04:19 AM
GUEST,999 03 Nov 12 - 05:44 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 04 Nov 12 - 05:49 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 04 Nov 12 - 05:53 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 04 Nov 12 - 06:21 AM
GUEST,999 04 Nov 12 - 09:45 AM
Acme 04 Nov 12 - 11:23 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 04 Nov 12 - 11:36 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 04 Nov 12 - 11:42 AM
Acme 04 Nov 12 - 01:06 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 04 Nov 12 - 01:53 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 04 Nov 12 - 02:01 PM
GUEST,leeneia 04 Nov 12 - 05:51 PM
Dave the Gnome 05 Nov 12 - 07:03 PM
Janie 05 Nov 12 - 07:42 PM
GUEST,RichM 05 Nov 12 - 09:05 PM
GUEST,leeneia 06 Nov 12 - 10:39 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Nov 12 - 01:54 PM
Janie 06 Nov 12 - 10:15 PM
Acme 06 Nov 12 - 10:25 PM
GUEST 07 Nov 12 - 11:33 AM
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Subject: Origins: Please help identify this song...
From: GUEST,GUEST - Robyn
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 02:14 AM

I am trying to find a song, it is haunting my mind and need to find the name of the song, and possibly who sings it. Its a female singer... the words are as follows: (and please excuse spelling mistakes)

Late at night, you can hear them dancing,
Anna told me one day,
late at night, you can almost hear them singing...

Yes she is older now, but her memory stands still,
yeah Shes older now, just look up over that hill,
late at night, you can hear them dancing,
Anna told me one day....

Yo wee ho, yo ho, yo ho,
guya oneyo, oh heya guy oneyo!

Yo wee ho, yo ho, yo ho,
guya oneyo, oh heya guy oneyo!

Yes shes older now, but the fire still burns,
shes older now, but in her heart,
she yearns to hear them dancing,
to hear them singing...


Yo wee ho, yo ho, yo ho,
guya oneyo, oh heya guy oneyo!

Yo wee ho, yo ho, yo ho,
guya oneyo, oh heya guy oneyo!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Please help identify this song...
From: GUEST,Guest, Robyn,
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 06:02 AM

sorry, the song is native american....


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Subject: RE: Origins: Please help identify this song...
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 06:42 AM

perhaps someone will help us re-name the thread?

welcome, Robyn. What an interesting song! Do you remember any more about it? When or where you may have heard it?

Dani

------------- Thread renamed. JoeClone---------------


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: bugulugs
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 07:05 PM

it was on a cd a friend gave me, but its a home made cd with no info on it.....


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: GUEST,Lynn W
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 02:31 PM

Is it this?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/You-Hear-Them-Dancing-World/dp/B001IJYFN0

Iroquois singer Joanne Shenandoah


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 04:46 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGIuoKy4v54


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: bugulugs
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 09:31 PM

Thank you so much guys, yes it is the song, i am so grateful.
Thank you again, now i must buy it online, lol


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: GUEST,samvriti
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 04:33 AM

Oliver Shanti & Friends - 1995 Well Balanced - 04 You Can Hear Them Dancing


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 07:56 PM

It is called "You Can Hear Them Dancing. It was written and sung by Oneida Joanne Shenadoah. It is on her CD Red Moon.


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: Janie
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 08:37 PM

The youtube link above has been taken down due to copyright infringement complaints. Here is another link that presumably does not infringe on the copyright.

I think the thread title is unintentionally misleading, at least in terms of the Mudcat environment as it implies a traditional Native American song. This is a New Age genre original song written by a singer/songwriter who is Native American.

Not what one would hear sung in a sweat lodge or at a powwow.


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 08:44 PM

None of that is traditional, imo. I agree with Janie.

PS The language on the video link ain't NNA either.


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 12:26 PM

The thread title doesn't say the song is traditional. I don't see a problem.


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 03:06 PM

This is NOT 'New Age' genre music whatsoever.

Joanne Shenandoah is a deeply respected singer, songwriter, musician and performer.

She is married to Doug George-Kanentiio and the two of them are on the board of directors of The Hiawatha Institute for Indigenous Knowledge

Joanne Shenandoah speaks about her songs and music

Her songs are superb...and she and Doug do a huge amount to raise awareness of many Native American issues.

Joanne Shenandoah Official Site


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: Acme
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 07:53 PM

She may be a "deeply respected singer" but I think she must have written her own Wikipedia page - it gushes. Her music is contemporary, her categories at Amazon are New Age, Healing, Meditation, Nature and Environment, and Instrumental. No mistake, she's an active and important performer and not to be dismissed, but she is New Age, Janie pegged it.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 08:39 PM

Whether it is Native American or New Age, both begin with NA! Can't say as it is my cup of tea either way but I am sure it will engender lots of discussion!

:D (tG)


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: Janie
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 09:48 PM

I have an interest in, and some very small knowledge of traditional Native American music and more contemporary Native American songs that have arisen "in the Native American folk tradition." (That is awkwardly phrased, I know.)

The structure and phrasing of the lyrics of this song are pretty much "in the tradition," including the vocables. There are elements of the arrangement that evoke traditional Native American music. New Age music, by definition, is evocative.

And...having said that I don't think the origin or cultural background of a singer or songwriter is necessarily grounds for labeling their music as (fill in the blank.) So, regarding the title being misleading, I guess for me it is now a coin toss. The lyrics are written in pretty traditional form. The music, melody and arrangement are not. All I know is if I see a thread on Mudcat that reads "help me find this Appalachian song," I am not going to expect to find the poster is inquiring about a Jazz song written by Bob Thompson, from Charleston, WV. If I see a thread that says help me identify this Scandinavian song, I am not going to expect to find it is a thread looking for information about a Scandinavian band who plays House music.

And taking credit for my own filters and cognitive distortions, I was a little excited to see a thread on Mudcat that from the title appeared to indicate some one else has a little interest in traditional Native American music, and was disappointed that it wasn't about a trad. song.


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: Janie
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 10:27 PM

Example of traditional Native American music . At least of the music done by men. Usually power or spiritual songs. Some are public sacred but many are private sacred, as in sung only within the context of a particular ceremony or ritual, and recording them or sharing them outside of the ritual or ceremony would be "wrong" for want of a better word.

There are often strict gender divisions and roles regarding music. Here is an example of women's music from a Western tribe. Navajo Women-Social Music Knowledge and information about traditional women's music in Native American culture is often scarce, especially among eastern tribes. go to a powwow in the East, and one might come away thinking that women dance and participate through the rhythm of ankle bells and shakers, but do not ever sing.


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Nov 12 - 04:19 AM

A couple are at the airport in Arizona awaiting their flight.
They are dressed in heavy boots, parka, scarf, mittens and all ready to head home to the Canadian winter.
An older American couple standing nearby is intrigued by their manner of dress.
The wife says to her husband, "Look at that couple. I wonder where they're from?"
He replies, "How would I know?"
She counters, "You could go and ask them."
He says, "I don't really care. You want to know, you go ask them."
She decides to do just that, walks over to the couple and asks,
"Excuse me. Noticing the way you're dressed, I wonder where you're from?"
The Canadian farmer replies, "Saskatoon, Saskatchewan".
The woman returns to her husband who asks, "So, where are they from?"
She replies, "I don't know. They don't speak English."


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Nov 12 - 05:44 AM

That's humourous, but also accurate.

"The name Saskatoon [in Cree: sâskwatôn, "Saskatoon" or the locatives: misâskwatôminihk, lit: "at the saskatoon berry", misâskwatôminiskâhk, "at the place of many saskatoon berries", mînisihk "at the berry"] comes from the Cree inanimate noun misâskwatômina "saskatoon berries", which refers to the sweet, violet-coloured berry that grows in the area"

That is from Wikipedia

'Saskatchewan: the province got its name from the Saskatchewan River, which the Cree called Kisiskatchewani Sipi, meaning "swift-flowing river."'

That is from a Gove of Canada site


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 05:49 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joanne_Shenandoah

Joanne Shenandoah
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Joanne Shenandoah is an Iroquois singer, composer and acoustic guitarist. She is a member of the Wolf Clan of the Oneida Nation, of the Haudenosaunee Six Nations Iroquois Confederacy. Her music is a combination of traditional songs and melodies with a blend of traditional and contemporary instrumentation. She has recorded more than 15 albums and won a multitude of awards, and given an Honorary Doctorate of Music by Syracuse University. She was awarded a Grammy Award for her part in the album "Sacred Ground".
Contents

    1 Roots
    2 Works
    3 Recognition
    4 Personal
    5 Discography
       5.1 As contributor
    6 External links

Roots

Shenandoah is the daughter of the late Maisie Shenandoah, Wolf Clanmother of the Oneida Nation, and the late Clifford Shenandoah, an Onondaga Nation chief. She is the direct descendent of John Skenando (Skenandoa, Shenandoah) after whom the Shenandoah Valley region of Virginia is named. A compatriot of George Washington, Shenandoah played a key role in rallying some Iroquois to support the rebels during the American Revolution. John Shenandoah was the co-founder of the Hamilton-Oneida Academy which later became Hamilton College.
Works

Joanne Shenandoah, Ph.D, is one of America's most celebrated and critically acclaimed musicians. She is a Grammy Award winner, with over 40 music awards (including a record13 Native American Music awards). She has captured the hearts of audiences all over the world, from North and South America, South Africa, Europe, Australia and Korea, with praise for her work to promote universal peace. She is a board member of the Hiawatha Institute for Traditional Knowledge www.hiawatha.syr.edu. Shenandoah has performed at prestigious events such as The White House, Carnegie Hall, 3 Presidential Inaugurations, Madison Square Garden, Crystal Bridges Museum, The NMAI-Smithsonian, The Ordway Theater, Hummingbird Centre, Toronto Skydome, The Parliament of the Worlds Religions,(Africa, Spain and Australia) and Woodstock '94.

"Joanne Shenandoah is one of the finest tributes to Native American Music and Culture" Neil Young
Recognition

Shenandoah is a Grammy Award Winner with 15 CD's. She has received more Native American Music Awards (13 to date) than any other Native Artist. She has also received numerous Indie Awards and Syracuse Area Music Awards (SAMMYS) and was presented with the Rigoberto Menchu - Highest award by the Native Film Festival in Montreal, Canada for her soundtrack in the documentary "Our Land Our Life".
Personal

She is married to Doug George-Kanentiio, a Co-Founder of the Native American Journalists Association
Discography


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 05:53 AM

Taken from my link above, where Joanne speaks about her music:

>>>".....According to Shenandoah, writing/creating "is a sacred process," as well as being as necessary to her "as eating or breathing. It operates on a time frame in which everything is potentially past, present, and future." She writes "to influence in a positive way, to change lives, to effect in profound ways, to heal. Writing also communicates; it is an expression of who we are, who's influenced us, done or said something. We also write to tell stories. Stories are the backbone of who we are. Telling is part of the mission to preserve the earth, to make a peaceful and safe place for our children and their children" (2005b). I asked whom she writes for, thinking of the obvious "Native and non-Native" answer. Her response touched me deeply: It is "a responsibility for everyone to use the gifts the Creator has given." It is a choice much like "the choice a physician has in an airplane when a passenger goes into cardiac arrest: does one use one's gift, or deny it?" Given the name Tekaliwha:kwha, or She Sings, Shenandoah is "grateful for the gift" each time she "asks and the gift of a song is given" (2005b). Song, she says, in every culture, "is what moves the earth, the heartbeat of the human spirit. It is connected to every movement made. Without it there would be no dance, no life." Music she sees as the embodiment of the spiritual self, the embodiment of one's entire being. Song—an oral tradition never interrupted—is her vehicle for preserving and honoring those stories she has heard since childhood, of communicating important principles, and of "healing the earth and those who live with it" (2005b).

        Joanne Shenandoah
Joanne Shenandoah. Photo: Harry Diorio         


From Shenandoah's earliest work, the songs she has been given have shared sacred principles of the traditional Haudenosaunee, affirming them for those within the culture and educating those of us outside it. "We Are the Iroquois" celebrates the persistence and longevity of the culture, the spiritual values that remain vibrant:

    We are the Iroquois,
    We're proud, we are strong,
    We've held onto our culture now,
       Oh, for so long.
    Though times have changed,
    We remain the same.
    We listen to our elders now,
    They know the way.
    Ceremonies, social dances,
    Songs that we sing,
    Being proud of our tradition we all feel within . . .
    There are many lessons in the legends that are told.
    (Shenandoah 1991)



Haudenosaunee sacred history, which provides context for "how we got here," is seen in the line from the song "Beneath the Great White Pine," as well as in her album Peacemaker's Journey (2000). Songs in this album are presented in traditional Oneida language. The liner notes translate the songs and tell the story of the Peacemaker's journey—recreated by Shenandoah and her husband, historian Doug George-Kanentiio, in English—explaining its significance to the Haudenosaunee culture. At the end of the Peacemaker's journey, the notes recount:

    The People of the Longhouse raised a tall eastern white pine next to Onondaga Lake . . . the Great Tree of Peace, the branches of which touched the sky for all to see. Its four gleaming roots extended to each sacred direction around the earth. . . . An individual or nation seeking an end to war may follow the roots to the Great Tree where they were to receive shelter. On top of the Great Tree he placed a mighty eagle who was to cry out if danger approached the people. Beneath the Great Tree the leaders of this confederacy of nations formed a circle by holding hands, pledging to uphold the Great Law of Peace for all time. (Shenandoah 2000)

Another song that celebrates the history of the Haudenosaunee, as important to teaching sacred principles as is Biblical history to the teaching of Christian sacred values, is Shenandoah's composition honouring Ganondagan, a sacred Seneca site just south of Rochester (2005a). Her composition relates the historic change in the Haudenosaunee as the Peacemaker united the nations, creating the confederacy and establishing an order followed today. That the Haudenosaunee and all First Nations people continue to believe in their sacred relationship with the land is evident in the song "Treaty." Dedicated to Faithkeeper Oren Lyons, "Treaty" speaks with Haudenosaunee voices, confronting government officials with a powerful message of permanence.

    So when you seat your council, who will come to speak
    For the Buffalo, the Eagle, the forests, and the trees. . . .
    Hear me Mr. President,
    This is sacred ground.
    (Shenandoah 2001)

In the liner notes to Covenant, Shenandoah writes, "When our ancestors first encountered the Europeans, they made a covenant with the colonists . . . signifying that all people were to respect each other's cultures and traditions while not interfering in their respective affairs. . . . Silver was used to indicate that this peace agreement, a sacred pledge, would last forever" (2003).

Principles for living and explanations of one's place in this world have traditionally been passed on through story, a critical component of oral culture. As elders and storytellers pass down the stories, Native writers and composers widen the circle through song. Shenandoah has set a number of traditional tales, in addition to the Peacemaker's Journey album, to music. Among my favorite songs are "The Seven Dancers" and "One Silver, One Gold," as I have also heard each told by elders in story circles. Retelling stories sacred to the culture allows the stories to "breathe again," as Alyce Spotted Bear aptly put it (2005). Widening the circle serves to provide an additional oral medium through which members of a culture and outsiders can both learn sacred stories. Shenandoah has extended her retelling to include a book for children called Skywoman, coauthored by Doug George-Kanentiio, followed by the album Skywoman: A Symphonic Odyssey of Iroquois Legends (2005a).

Another reemergence of the sacred manifests itself in a return to one's first language in song composition. Language holds culture; many important concepts just do not translate and, more importantly, should be expressed in their own sacred voice. According to Shenandoah in the liner notes to Orenda, "Ceremonial songs restore the balance between the physical and spiritual worlds. These songs are restricted to the longhouses and exclusively for the Haudenosaunee" (1998). Some, like the Thanksgiving Address, are learned and carried in their own language and translated into other languages for educational purposes. The opening song on Shenandoah's Covenant (2003) features Mohawk chief Jake Swamp delivering this prayer in both Mohawk and English. The liner notes to the album explain:

    Chief Swamp, like his traditional colleagues, has spent his adult life as an advocate for preserving the spiritual and moral values of the Haudenosaunee. He believes it is principles such as cooperation, eco-spirituality, humility, adherence to natural law, multigenerational planning, love of family, respect for elders, and compassion for other species which will ultimately come to be accepted by all nations.

Several of Shenandoah's albums—Orenda, Covenant—feature songs in traditional language. Says Shenandoah, "I believe that a language must be used in order to survive" (2005b). Of the meaning of "Prophecy Song" on the Orenda album, Shenandoah writes, "This song is to remind us to be aware of our place upon the earth and to fulfill our obligations to ourselves, our families, nations, the natural world, and to the Creator. The words say we are to awaken, stand up and be counted, for you are being recognized in the spirit world" (1998).

Shenandoah's Matriarch album collects traditional Oneida women's songs sung in Oneida to pay tribute to the women important in her life. In a blending and layering of several sacred traditions, another recent album, Sisters, records Christian hymns sung in Oneida by Shenandoah's mother, Clanmother Maisie Shenandoah, and her aunt, Elizabeth Roberts. During our interview, Shenandoah observed:

    Christianity was a significant part of our history, too much so to be ignored. The Iroquois managed to survive [the seventeenth century] with much of their indigenous culture intact, including a tradition of spiritual tolerance. One important practice was to blend ancestral social customs with Christian. To this day, many church services are conducted in Native language. (2005b)

Shenandoah explains in the liner notes to Sisters, "We know how vital our songs of thanksgiving are to the human heart. . . . By raising our voices in song, we extend words of gratitude to every living thing. This is the very essence of what it is to be Ukwehe:we, a True Human Being" (2003)...." <<<<


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 06:21 AM

Joanne performing 'Prophecy Song' live, with her daughter, Leah. After the song Joanne speaks of the effect it had when they sang it in front of the world's religious leaders. It is a profoundly beautiful song, made more so by the wonderful voices of these two women, and it touches The Soul.

Joanne Shenandoah: "This song is to remind us to be aware of our place upon the earth and to fulfill our obligations to ourselves, our families, nations, the natural world, and to the Creator. The words say we are to awaken, stand up and be counted, for you are being recognized in the spirit world"

Prophecy Song


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 09:45 AM

I propose that there is a fundamental difference between a "native American song" and a song written by a "native American" although the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive. I know many songwriters who are Native and they respond to the same things that all songwriters do: aspects of love, politics, nature, social justice, angst, humour, etc. To think otherwise is condescending at worst and ethnocentric at best.

The Canadian trio, Asani, whom one may read about at this site are great, but although much of their music is certainly based in NNA tradition, their music is roots-inspired and not necessarily NNA [native north American] specifically. I had the pleasure of some exchanges with Sarah many moons back, and I really appreciate and enjoy what they do. She had a few kind words for me, also.

No people can be completely removed from the influences of their past, although certainly various governments have done their best to erase NNA culture, language and heritage. I know the same has occurred in Australia, Central and South America, New Zealand(?) and the USA. No doubt the same holds true in the old USSR and present-day Russia.

Keep in mind also that '"Geopolitically, according to the scheme of geographic regions and subregions used by the United Nations, Northern America consists of:[2][3] Bermuda, Canada, Greenland, Saint-Pierre and Miquelon, and United States.' (from Wikipedia)

As an aside, in proportion to population I have met as many arrogant a$$holes among the NNA population as I have among any other group of people, including Caucasians. To suppose that any group is distanced from the foibles and stupidities of the so-called human race is a false supposition and in itself plain wrong.

About 10% of my life has been spent living in and as part of NNA communities. They put their pants on one leg at a time just like the rest of us. They cry when friends die, get angry when insulted, love their children and respect their elders. They too have political wannabees who would sell their souls and their electors for power and money, and basically I don't romanticize them as 'a people', nor will I ever.

When I look at my own family now I see that over half are described as NNA by government and assorted folks who want to denigrate them for being NNA; however, one thing has not and will not change: Fuck with my family and ya fuck with me, and I am and will continue to be a difficult sonuvabitch to take down.

People who record songs do so to make a living. They may also as a side-effect address issues of humanity and fairness. Such is a good aspect of human nature.

Just saying it the way I see it. YMMV.

NB: That is a 'generic post' and is not aimed at my friend LC.


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: Acme
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 11:23 AM

Lizzie, cut and paste of long bits from outside web sites doesn't add to the credibility of this artist, in discourse it's same effect as ALL CAPS, and there is a rule at Mudcat about it. And you have to understand that there are a lot of "New Age" Indians who cash in on the Indian cachet these days. It feeds into the whole interest of Anglos collecting crystals for power and buying fetish symbols as if that would let them have insight into indigenous/autocthonous religions. Some of the same folks who build teepees in their back yards. Whether Shanendoah intentionally has done this or not, that is the group the follows her. She is a commercial Indian, and while she is working on sites that try to give back, she is continuing the activity that makes the most money, and if she was simply a performer who was Anglo, she wouldn't have the same following as those who think she is an authentic Indian.

I sat on an airplane waiting for takeoff a dozen years ago and watched the rich white mom pull out a little bag of Indian fetish figures and hand one to each person in her party before we pulled away from the terminal. She gathered them up again when the plane landed. (I think if they were legitimately an Indian family each would have a personal pouch and there would be no doling out of fetishes. Each pouch for personal power is very important to individuals and their families and isn't taken lightly.) I suppose turnabout's fair play - when Indian cultures encountered christianty and other religions they tended to adopt the parts that they perceived brought them power. They didn't usually leave behind the old religion, they just layered on parts of a new one. Over time christianity pushed out a lot of native religions, but ethnographic material and early Indian writings make clear what the pattern was. That mom can pick and choose and if she feels safer, that is her choice, but it isn't the same as truly coming from an American Indian religious background and feeling empowered by the panorama of beliefs.

I agree with Bruce, this second paragraph isn't aimed at Lizzie, but the first is a response to the posts above. The places we're from, the cultures we grow up with, it seeps in, and this comes from my early life in an area with Indian populations, many of whom weren't removed, who were left alone in their own areas. There are reservations in Washington State, they were established in most states at a certain point in time, but residence wasn't compulsory and many indigenous people live in the surrounding communities and up in the mountains. The Columbia River damming did cause a twentieth century removal and huge cultural shifts for the salmon-eating Colville in a heartbreaking example that can be applied to why the dams and population movement in Brazil is a bad idea. Following the larger themes is easier in this Internet age than parsing an individual's tribal or cultural authenticity via the Internet.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 11:36 AM

I agree, Bruce...

I've met some very unpleasant people who just happen to also be Native American...I tell them to shove their heads up their arses too..because trust me, they take my breath away at times...

Good humans
Bad humans


Hopefully, the good ones, such as Joanne, will continue to Win The Day.

Liz


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 11:42 AM

No, Maggie, you couldn't be more wrong on this one.

Joanne is NOT a 'new age commercial Indian, in any at all. Nor is she cashing on anything. And to infer she is such is deeply insulting to all that Joanne stands for.   

I know someone who is great friends with Joanne, Doug and their family. She is very highly respected, by people from all Tribes and those who are not Native American...or as Russell Means preferred to be called, Indian.

It upsets me to see her slung in with the New Agers, for Joanne is of The Ancient Agers, keeping the stories and traditions of her People alive, and taking them out there, all across the world, both her Native songs, those she writes herself, and those which cover Peace and Mother Earth.


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: Acme
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 01:06 PM

No, Lizzie, she isn't that important. You've been reading the press about her that her own people put out. If you critically go through page after page of Google search results you see (-YouTube) cut and paste accolades on sites selling her work or having her perform, but no original content written about her. There is very little critical or scholarly mention of her, in regard to her American Indian "authentic music" or spirituality. There is an article from 2007 in The Journal of New York Folklore that mostly again parrots remarks from music sites about Shenandoah's music. She participated in writing a children's book called Skywoman: Legends of the Iroquois and the "about the author" part of the overview (supplied by the author or publisher) says she "has also been recognized by the First Americans in the Arts Foundation, for preserving traditional values in the field of contemporary music." It sounds good until you realize that the tiny little First Americans.org site is dead, ranked 15,043,467 of existing web sites without a single hit in the Alexa index.

Look at it this way. Just because one is an American Indian, the product of your creative work could be said to be "Indian X" - Indian literature, Indian music, Indian art, whatever. But Martin Cruz Smith, who is Pueblo and Yaqui, doesn't write "American Indian literature," he writes popular fiction, American murder mysteries. He's a very successful American writer. He's not in a niche that includes any reference to his American Indian roots. The fact that though Shenandoah emphasizes her American Indian roots, you don't don't find American Indian scholars discussing her in any context. She doesn't register because she is a New Age niche performer.

My master's degree is in American Indian Literature. There is a lot of writing going on in the field that covers literature, arts, music, politics, and philosophy, and a lot of fighting about who is and isn't a "real" Indian. That fact that no one is fighting about her means she's off the radar. The fact that I don't write any more reviews about American Indian criticism and literature is because of all of the fighting, and you have to have some skin in that game to be fought over. She doesn't.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 01:53 PM

And, I just need to say that out of the many Native Americans I've come to talk to on-line, those mentioned aboved are a tiny minority, for all the others have been respectful, kind and incredibly loving towards others, which has never failed to impress me.


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 02:01 PM

No, Maggie....

I was introduced to Joanne's music by a good friend of hers over on Facebook. I had never heard of her before, nor her music. He has since told me many stories about Joanne and Doug and what they do 'out there'. He is, at present, researching his Mohawk roots, and they have taken him to their hearts, making him feel like family. He has learnt a great deal from them, and will always be eternally grateful for what they've done for him, and for his son too, who has also now been welcomed into Joanne's family.

You will find that many people know of Joanne...and much of it is done by word of mouth. She has been invited to many major Peace concerts around the world and was in Bethlehem last Christmas for just such a concert...

She is highly respected, not just for her singing and songwriting ability, but also for the good work she does, which she does not for praise or publicity, but simply because, she, like many other Native Americans 'out there' is dedicated to changing the world to a become a better place, step by step, in her own way as best she can, but again, you will have to trust me on this one.


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 05:51 PM

Thanks for the info, Lizzie.


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 07:03 PM

So, is it a Native American song or a New Age song?

DtG


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: Janie
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 07:42 PM

It depends....;^)


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: GUEST,RichM
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 09:05 PM

It's new age: it's derivative, and it's imitative. It's psspbly sincere, I don't know.

I don't have university credentials, but I am a perceptive lifelong musician and my lineage includes Mohawk ancestry. I hear new age more than anything else.


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 10:39 AM

That's not New Age. New Age is a kind of music that uses lots of black notes (because you can hit anything) and chord names that look like algebra. It's supposed to be improvisational (heh heh). It wafts and surges (mostly wafts), never says anything and barely comes to a conclusion.

The music to 'You Hear them Dancing' is what you hear in every family-owned cafe, in every dingy bar and along every two-lane highway in America. It's Country.

The words are different from Country, and why shouldn't they be? Joanne Shenandoh has the right to write something new. But that tune is Country. And why shouldn't it be? For millions of Americans, Country is the only real music.

The criticisms here are just another form of the Great You-Shut-Up -- as in "Put down your instrument, don't write down your thoughts! We don't want to hear your music! Go on the Internet, download some mp3's and Shut Up!"

The Great You-Shut-Up is everywhere.


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 01:54 PM

Ah, OK. I thought country myself but didn't feel qualified to judge. Pleasant enough certainly but, as country goes, I prefer Dolly Parton!

As to the great shut-up. Mmmmm. Not sure, L. There is certainly a faction, prevelent elsewhere on the web but particulary here, that will insist that the music they like is best and anyone who says otherwise is devoid of feeling and joy. I am a great believer in live and let live without ever wishing to impose my tastes, eclectic as they are, on anyone who does not show an interest.

Oh - An I play a few instruments as well as murdering other peoples songs but would never consider my own efforts good enough to publicise. On the other hand I don't download MP3s either unless I have heard a sample, liked it and paid for them. Unlike many.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: Janie
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 10:15 PM

I suppose I can hear a bit of country in her voice. But it would be a loooong stretch to categorize this song as country.

What puzzles me, Lizzie and Leenia, is that both of you are quick to assume that categorizing music as within the New Age genre is disparaging to the artist or to the music.

A pretty good and inclusive definition of New Age Music


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: Acme
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 10:25 PM

The criticisms here are just another form of the Great You-Shut-Up -- as in "Put down your instrument, don't write down your thoughts! We don't want to hear your music! Go on the Internet, download some mp3's and Shut Up!"

And that is utter nonsense. That's not what criticism is about. We can parse the music and pick apart the sources (or lack of) and in no way shut up any performer. She simply isn't "authentic" in the sense of the music Janie linked to, and many of us have more than a passing familiarity with. Shenandoah protests too much, but she's doing her own thing, probably making a good living at it, and no one is going to stop her. Scholars and critics pay her no attention, they don't take her seriously, but they don't buy records, so don't worry about it.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Help identify this native American song...
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 12 - 11:33 AM

www.youtube.com/watch?v=PobWszJOQh4


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