BS: Political Correctness goes too far

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: Genie
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 02:10 AM

And, Ernie, that was an excellent exposition of the issues - and the conclusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 02:47 AM

Yes it has..to the point of beyond common sense!! I think that is quite obvious!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 02:48 AM

There never was any reason to take the book out of schools. All that is required in those schools is teachers who are bright enough that they can explain to the students the real message in the story, and students who are bright enough to understand it.

But I guess that would just be asking too much, right? ;-) Impossible in modern America!

So let's not ask anyone to think. It's too hard. Let's just react to the official political trigger words of our time, regardless of context, regardless of the author's intention, and we'll all be "safe", won't we? Yup. Ignorance really IS bliss, by golly.

And while we're at it, let's remove the word "niggardly" from the dictionary too. You just can't be too safe these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 02:55 AM

And while we're at it, let's remove the word "niggardly" from the dictionary too." LH

Little Hawk, your bringing in 'niggardly' is paying lip service to an utter irrelevance, giving credence to the misperceptions of the illiterate and uninformed.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 03:49 AM

1. "It isn't ethnic cleansing in a literal sense...it's cultural cleansing...but the mindset behind it is quite similar."

What?

The mindset behind murdering/displacing thousands or millions of people because of their ethnicity is the same mindset as taking a word out of a book?

LH - you are going senile!



2. "let's remove the word "niggardly" from the dictionary too"


The word "nigger" is a term which exists solely as an instrument of degradation and violence and which represents the abuse murder and enslavement of millions of people over a period of hundreds of years.

The word "niggardly" measn "mean" or "ungenerous".


There is no connection between them.


Once again LH wildly misses the point - when people confuse these words they display ignorance.

When LH atttempts weakly to confuse them on purpose he makes NO point of substance but just makes a mockery of the issue of the word "nigger".


Have the debate by all means, but these kind of self indulgent and weak thought experiments do nothing more than insult the intelligence.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 03:50 AM

Ebbie is right, again...Jeez, that's twice within 48 hours! Good girl!
Nonetheless, taking Twain out is absolutely stupid..but then, we Yanks have been practicing diligently for some time, at being stupid!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 04:04 AM

The abilities of teachers?

You pay peanuts you get monkeys.

Sorry Chongo.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 04:06 AM

It depends on what age group this book is directed at. When I was 10 in 1968, I read The Adventures of Tom Sawyer (an expurgated version, I am sure as I remember no controversial words or discussions). When I was in high school (11th grade I think) and again in American Lit in university, I read unexpergated editions of The Adventrues of Huckleberry Finn. Different things were focussed upon and discussed each time. From all the literary technical stuff to the social commentary.

Looking at it retrospectively, I was a child in a small town in south east Virginia at the height of Civil Rights movement, I think it was quite brave of my teacher Mrs. Frink to have us reading even the watered down version.   Though at the time, I did not make connections to what was happening politically in my own town, which was school desegregation.

Actually I think the reprint and the media storm it causes might be a good thing. It will set people talking about the issues surrounding socially acceptable literature and the corruption of literary art. I would like to see teachers using both versions in the classroom and discussing the historical, social and literary implications of such changes.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: Green Man
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 05:09 AM

All references in Shakespeare to 'Blackamores' will be changed to 'person of a dusky countenance'. Of course this won't change the context or feraal of the original text will it. (That's Irony)

The rewriting of history and books to hide past misdemeanours only deprives new generations of the truth of the situation as it was.

We have to learn from history or else we are doomed to reapeat it.

Will changing this book stop rascism, not likely. Amazing, people actually get paid to do this sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 05:26 AM

Little Hawk I agree with what you said about Cuba, admittedly I only went there for the first time last year as a tourist but yes I noticed that there didn't seem to be any friction with anyone at all. Even when some Brits were discourteous and rude (I was really ashamed of thankfully a few for being so rude), they kept their calm and stayed courteous throughout. But the ethnic mixtures in Cuba appeared to get along fine in that particular hotel anyway from the Management, general staff to the dance entertainment. Travelling through the town of Moron it seemed to be friendly enough, but very poor, people have to travel great distances to get work whatever the colour.

Back to political correctness gone too far, how can classic lines of a book be changed? Most people will accept that society was different then and accept it for what it was with the language of the time as we do with Enid Blyton or opt not to read it at all. If teachers are any good at what they do they should be able guide youngsters through it. But going back to the another thread about reading statistics are the general public young or old going to be bothered to read it at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 05:26 AM

So this has been going on since at least 1968.

thats more than 40 years.

Exactly how is this either current or any more controversial than it ever was before?

As usual, the headline "political correctness gone mad" is underscored by a pile of meaningless drivel.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 05:39 AM

Many books have been sanitised over the years, including Agatha Christie, Enid Blyton etc, so Twain is not the only one to lay in his grave gnashing his teeth...

Yes, I think it is sad that this has been done. Although the work is fiction, it represents a time and place and gives a backdrop to true history, as all historical novels written contemporaneously have done, although this was better written than most! Basically, this is revisionism and that just won't do.

I am loathe to sign up to a statement such as "political correctness gone too far!" though, as it is uncomfortably similar to headlines in the more seedy of UK tabloid newspapers. (Substitute "too far" with "mad" but the meaning remains similar.)

Douglas Bader was a war hero and has been lauded in books and films. Only the very early books and films noted that his dog was called Nigger though. We had neighbours when I was a lad who had a dog of that name. He kept buggering off and all the kids on the street used to wander down the road and nearby fields calling him.... me included.

Why do I mention this? Because innocence is just that. I had no idea of the derogatory use of the word till I went to the "big" school. If we hide behind offence, we learn to be offended.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 05:50 AM

I would reiterate the point that I have made in previous threads, which is that as a historical document, and for the sake of the authenticity of the novel, it should be preserved in its original form and protected as the work of art that it clearly is.

This applies as much to Joseph Conrad whose use of "nigger" was not remotely sympathetic in the way that Twains was.

In the long run, the original version will stand the test of time, while the watered down versions will come and go and end up being recycled.

The watered down versions have been around for ages and the originals have not gone anywhere so it can be observed that they haven't served in any way to "update" or "replace" the originals.

They have served as gateways to literature for kids and incentives to read, which is a wholly positive thing.


So Ake and his ilk can go around taking the opportunity to Bash Azizi and go on and on publicly and unfettered about how the "liberals" are taking away his freedom of speech, but thankfully they, like the bowdlerized versions of old novels, will be of little significance to the world in the long run.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 06:19 AM

I think you'll find that "Nigger" was Dambuster Guy Gibson's black Labrador, who was killed when he ran into the road in front of a car, while the squadron were carrying out the Dams Raid.

Bader, as far as I recall owned either Retrievers or Setters, but don't quote me on that.

Nonetheless, your comments are entirely valid IMO, since there was never any malice in the use of that word in the UK at that time.

Later, with the influx of immigrants mainly from the Caribbean, racial tensions did arise but, even then I rarely heard the N word used.

Mostly I remember signs in windows of rental accomodation and boarding houses, which said "No Coloureds", and strangely (which has almost been forgotten) also "No Irish".

Conversational references I overheard usually involved the words "Black", "Coloured", or "Darkie".

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 06:20 AM

Willie - wasn't it Guy Gibson's (Leader of RAF 617 Squadron in the Dams raid and after) dog who was called 'Nigger'? Maybe they both had a Nigger?

Gibson's Nigger was killed by a car the night before the dams raid, and buried by the gates of Scampton airfield (the legend goes that he was buried at midnight while Gibson was on the dams raid, Gibson's thought being that he and Nigger might well be going into the ground at the same time). There used to be a stone marking Nigger's grave by the roadside years ago, but not any more.

Not really anything to do with this thread, but interesting local (for me) history.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 06:21 AM

Sorry Don, you just beat me to it!

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 06:48 AM

"there was never any malice in the use of that word in the UK at that time."

This misses the point.

Yes it was normal for the word Nigger to be used.

It was also normal, in that context, for Black people to be second class citizens.

It was normal for black people to be denied the vote.


For most people this was accepted reality without any sense of Malice behind it.


But in hindsight we are able to say that it was not the right way to do things.


So we abolished that society.


And in the process we abolished the "normal" social/political category of "Nigger".


"nigger" was a normal everyday social demographic and the word was a normal everyday word for that reason, said without Malice, but also without awareness of what it meant and misery and wretchedness that it represented.


These days we are aware so that excuse doesn't apply any more.


Keep the books - they are important and have historical and cultural value as well as itrinsic artistic value and shouldn't be censored any more than painting depicting "niggers" should.


But all this talk of "political correctness gone mad" is basically nothiing more than stubborn refusal to let go, to face up to the past and to move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 06:58 AM

Yep, if you say it was Guy Gibson, then I stand corrected. Sorry.

I genuinely thought for years that Bader had a dog of that name. You live and learn...

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 07:14 AM

I read 'The Dam Busters' and 'Reach For The Sky' at least five times each as a lad, Willie. Some stuff sticks at that tender age! There wasn't a lot at that time to occupy a lad out here in the Backwoods! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: Brian May
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 08:00 AM

Wow, how pleasant so many people agreeing with the premise made in the title.

Welcome to my world.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: EBarnacle
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 08:09 AM

VT, what bothers me is that the bowdlerized book will still be around after the hubbub dies down. Once the sound and fury go away, there will be many people who will have read the book in this form with no awareness that there was ever another version.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: fat B****rd
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 08:21 AM

Does this mean 'Injun Joe' is acceptable?

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 08:29 AM

Why not face up to the fact that words have changed meanings and insinuations as time changes. This is a history lesson in itself and is part of the process of understanding the book.

At the time it was written common awareness was just starting to realise that the term was considered repugnant by a minor part of the population.

There are other words that have had changed meanings over the years such as gay. Do we have to re-write all the books that used that word other than in the context of a sexual one.

I have to put up with all those books that claim that there is a God. Will they all be banned some time in the future?

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 08:47 AM

I have heard the word is commonly used among the young black community as a term of affection....suppose someone better tell them its to be banned.

No word from you "liberals" on the younng white girls being groomed and sexually assaulted by Pakistani muslim gangs in the UK and even larger numbers in the Netherlands?

This is going to shake the "human rights" act to its core, soon all the hypocrisy will be exposed.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 08:58 AM

"(BTW, are they changing Injun Joe to "Native-American Joe" or "First-Nations Joe" in Tom Sawyer?)"

Actually, I heard that he had removed the word "Injun" but I don't know what he replaced it with.

'The best part of the whole book is where Huck says that Aunt Polly never did anything bad to him ever, "and here I am stealing her nigger." The whole upside-downness of what is right and wrong in that society (and in ours) is right there in just a few words.'

You make a good point but the pedant in me has to point out that Jim belonged to the Widder Douglas, not to Tom's Aunt Polly.


I've seen several movie versions of Huckleberry Finn and none of them use the word. At the same time, none of them adequately portray Huck's inner turmoil, and ultimate decision, which is at the soul of the book.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 09:06 AM

"I have heard the word is commonly used among the young black community as a term of affection"

You never grow or learn anything.

This stuff has been really thoroughly and rigourously explored on this site a million times and you were there Ake.

But because you walk around with your fingers in your ears shouting LALALA and brandishing the stats on the number of homosexuals suffering with HIV/AIDS as your "prove all" universal evidence Key, you insist on taking us tound and round in circles.


But lets look at something else.



"No word from you "liberals" on the younng white girls being groomed and sexually assaulted by Pakistani muslim gangs in the UK and even larger numbers in the Netherlands?"



Source?



and while you're dredging up whatever Daily Mail article you got this crap from (or was it the BNP manifesto) why don't you ansewr this question ....



... what the Fuck does this have to do with Mark Twain?



You mate are as full on a bigot as I have ever had the displeasure to waste my time engaging with.


I'm just grateful that I don't have to be you so I never have to Wallow in the putrid filth that forms your consciousness.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 09:18 AM

By excising that word, the book can get back into schools...the mindset behind it was to get the book back into schools....

Ah, but you see, it should never have been taken OUT of the schools in the first place. Take it up with the schools/school boards instead of emasculating the book.

Also, its necessary to realize that Huck. Finn is NOT A "CHILDRENS BOOK"!- at the age people can understand and appreciate the book, the language is not a problem..

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: EBarnacle
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 09:45 AM

Greg, that's the key. As was said above, the politicians seem to be the ones most upset by the use of the language.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 09:50 AM

Sure enough, a bit of research and the truth is swiftly uncovered.

1. The two papers reporting Ake's slur on Pakistanis are ... Guess ... the Sun and The Mail.

What a surprise.

2. Ake has been spectacularly consistent in his selective misreading of the report which the two papers above refer to.

In fact there are no Pakistanis gooming white girls in the netherlands, but the report COMPARED recent crimes in Rotherham with crimes committed by MORROCCAN pimps in holland.


And on the matter of the gangsters in Rotherham, 53 were Jailed.


No human rights law was involved at any stage, and it certainly did not influence the convictions of the gangsters in question.


So Ake's comment that "This is going to shake the "human rights" act to its core" is not only bullshit, it is wholly and utterly irrelevant.


FW is back and this time he's got both guns blazing ... into his feet!

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 10:49 AM

I note that the phrase 'mental' is used widely too, even in children's programmes in a flippant way which in reality is not so pleasant for the sufferer or families. It seems that this area is still a subject of light-hearted amusement. I am not saying that it shouldn't be mentioned at all but not in a derogatory way.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 11:09 AM

All that is required in those schools is teachers who are bright enough that they can explain to the students the real message in the story, and students who are bright enough to understand it.

That is really a naive view, imo. Teachers do not have that kind of leeway in what they are expected to teach!

Have any of you read the transcript?

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 11:28 AM

Teachers do not have that kind of leeway in what they are expected to teach!

That's a political and practical problem to be taken up with school boards, school administrators and curriculum developers, Kat- not a question about censoring/bowlderizing literature.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 11:30 AM

Too true, Kat. In fact, many books on the ``allowed to teach it list`` came with the caveat that the final arbiter would be so-called community values, whatever the hell that means. It was just the Dept of Ed covering its rear and leaving teachers to decide. It was The DoE`s way of saying that the teacher was on his or her own should it all hit the fan.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: mousethief
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 11:42 AM

ake: No word from you "liberals" on the younng white girls being groomed and sexually assaulted by Pakistani muslim gangs in the UK and even larger numbers in the Netherlands?

The old "you don't object to all offenses so you're a hypocrite to object to any" ploy is so old. Find another.

Neil D: You make a good point but the pedant in me has to point out that Jim belonged to the Widder Douglas, not to Tom's Aunt Polly.

My mistake. It's been a while, but at least I got to read it in school. Which millions of kids won't get to do unless an expurgated version is made available. Them's just the facts. The literary purists need to pull up their big girl panties and deal.

Greg F: Ah, but you see, it should never have been taken OUT of the schools in the first place. Take it up with the schools/school boards instead of emasculating the book.

Thaaaaat's Niiiiiice. We need to deal with the reality we have, not one we'd like to have. And it doesn't look to be changing any time soon. By your purism you deny millions of children the chance to read a fine book.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 11:55 AM

In university, I studied various of The Bard`s plays for a term. Amongst them was `Hamlet`. I noticed--with the help of a great teacher--that the play had been changed somewhat. In the scene with Ophelia, Hamlet--with his head on her lap said `Oh, you with your C`s, U`s `n` T`s. The only Collection I ever found that as Shakespeare wrote it was in The Complete Works of Shakespeare published by Pelican.

I don`t know what that means, but censorship sure is strange stuff, considering that few if any high school students would ever even notice what Shakespeare had done.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 11:56 AM

Thanks for doing the work, Lox.

ake, you say: "No word from you "liberals" on the younng white girls being groomed and sexually assaulted by Pakistani muslim gangs in the UK and even larger numbers in the Netherlands?"

Even if Lox had not exposed your shallow, pot-stirring claim, don't you realize that the crime would not be worse because young white girls were "being groomed and sexually assaulted"?

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: Becca72
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 12:23 PM

Genie: (BTW, are they changing Injun Joe to "Native-American Joe" or "First-Nations Joe" in Tom Sawyer?)

They are changing it to "Indian Joe" according to the report on the Today Show...

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 01:12 PM

999 ~~'The Cs Us Ts great Ps' joke actually occurs, not in the Ophelia play-scene dialogue in Hamlet, but in Malvolio's letter scene in Twelfth Night.
====
Lox ~~ "1. The two papers reporting Ake's slur on Pakistanis are ... Guess ... the Sun and The Mail."

Purely as a matter of fact and suggesting no other comment on the topic, THIS WAS THE LEAD STORY IN THIS MORNING'S 'TIMES'.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 01:17 PM

Geeze, corrected once more. Thank you. That said, it does NOT appear in any high school plays I`ve encountered. Knowing you, what you said is accurate. Don`t know how I screwed it up. Age and aluminium I guess. Thanks again.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 01:24 PM

Guys..... ;-)

My reference to the word "niggardly" was a deliberately sarcastic reminder about the ridiculous media row that erupted a few years ago (in New York?) when some local politican or city employee used the term "niggardly" in a speech he was making.

Despite the fact that the word has absolutely nothing to do with Black people, it was interpreted as an attack on Black people by many in the local Black community, and with a little help from the media, they managed to blow it up into a huge row. They demanded the man's resignation because he had used a "racist" term! They were quite unaware that the word "niggardly" is from Scottish origins, it means "cheap" or "stingy", and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the word "nigger" and does not refer to Blacks.

And that is why I brought the matter up. I was simply pointing out how ignorance and knee-jerk reactions by various people who have no idea what's actually going on in a book or in a statement are the kind of thing that's driving the agenda a lot of the time these days. They react to the mental trigger....they don't undestand the actual context or the meaning of what's happening...and therein lies the problem. They just react to outward triggers, they don't think or bother to eductate themselves.

This is also called "judging the book by its cover", and it's a very common human failing.

Get it now? No, I am not getting "senile", Lox, I am making a point that you misunderstood, that's all. ;-) Ease up, buddy. Part of what makes a good discussion is to realize that you aren't the only intelligent being who's taking part in it, that people with a different opinion are not necessarily drooling morons or racists.... and have respect for the people you are talking to. I know you're a smart guy, and you're not senile. That's true of me also.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 01:28 PM

Pardon the typos, by the way. I should proofread before hitting "submit". It's not a sign of senility...it's a sign of haste. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 01:35 PM

Excerpt from editorial in New York Times:
"We are horrified, and we think most readers, textural purists or not, will be horrified too. The trouble isn't merely adulterating Twain's text. It's also adulterating social, economic and linguistic history. Substituting the word "slave" makes it sound as though all the offense lies in the "n-word" and has nothing to do with the institution of slavery. Worse, it suggests that understanding the truth of the past corrupts modern readers, when, in fact, this new edition is busy corrupting the past."

Editorial
"That's Not Twain
Published January 5, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 01:42 PM

An interesting perspective below. I especially like the suggestion of leaving the text as is and including historic background material on racism and slavery somewhere to explain the historical context. How would that hurt?


http://www.maryvilledailyforum.com/features/x1599396111/Teacher-sees-Twain-s-N-word-as-problematic

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 02:40 PM

MtheGM,

Well thanks for that,

Akes claim that Pakistanis were doing anything in the netherlands was still incorrect and the perpetrators convictions were still never affected by the human rights act so his post is still bollocks.

So whats your point?


ps -
here's the front page of Times online and it isn't the "lead story" as you claim


"bloody foreigners - coming over here and raping white girls" ...

... is that it?




LH - yes everyone has a different point of view.

But some points of view are dangerous, unsupportable, and founded on hatred and lies and promote hatred and lies.

Those points of view should be met with no tolerance.

In the war of ideas, no quarter should ever be given to destructive crap like the insinuations made by Ake etc.


And yes there are many people out there who are intelligent who hold different points of view to me.

They are the most dangerous and the most able to sell and package evil bullshit as "reasonable".

Thankfully none of the bullshit mongers on here have that much wit.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 03:23 PM

By your purism you deny millions of children the chance to read a fine book.

Not so, Mouse. By being true to the original text, I'm trying to prevent millions of children - children old enough to understand and appreciate the book- from reading a bowderized piece of crap that was a fine book before the censors got their hands on it.

The REALITY is to correct this, people need to del with the sourc of th problem: The school boards, the school administrators, etc. - not the text of what, as you rightly state- is a fine book.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 03:27 PM

I suggest an experiment to see if the "N" word is offensive anymore, or just another word?

The test would be to say it to the next black person you see. Then, let us all know how it worked out?

:)

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 03:48 PM

Many years ago in the far reaches of time I taught English literature to high school students. At one point a peer (read fellow(ette) teacher) was receiving severe flak from a parent group. I also did because I had used The Stone Angel written by Margaret Laurence. The parents were objecting to the sex scene in the novel. Folks, there IS no sex scene in the novel. Laurence alludes to it as happening in a room next door--details not provided. So, I requested a clearer explanation of what the `charges` were and would they allow me to present small portions of books that I used to teach literature to students. (I will admit that at the time I used The Bible--a book I perceive to be literature. That was verboten in a non-Catholic public school.) I chose material and a few days later met with the parents and gave each a three-page handout containing quotations from various books: then I told them where each had come from. I then suggested we ban all the books I`d put forward. Of course, amongst the books were The Bible--I think I used the New Jerusalem version--and it was some writing from Song of Songs from the Old Testament. Those passages got a bit steamy. And Twain, and Laurence, and Atwood, and Munro and others. Often, people ban (or try to) books and films they haven`t read or seen. I agree that some are NOT appropriate at certain grade levels. However, as has been stated often on this thread, just because someone doesn`t like it doesn`t mean it`s bad.

In one class I read from Dick Gregory`s book, `Nigger` and asked the kids what should be done about the title. Recall that the dedication in that book was to his mother. He wrote, `Dear Mama (or words to that effect), the next time you hear the word `nigger` remember that they`re advertising my book.`

Intention in the use of words is important. Twain`s intention was NOT to slag Black people. He too was a subject of his times.

I fail to see--for example--why many parents will allow kids to watch movies that are rated PG-13 when there are scenes of violence and fairly explicit sex and lotsa language, and again people are going after literature. Sheesh.

Best to you all.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 04:14 PM

Lighten up, Lox. My point is simply dedication to accuracy of fact, as I said. I do not read The Times online: I am old-fashioned & read the print edition. The headline on yesterday's was "Revealed conspiracy of silence on UK sex gangs: Most convicted offenders of Pakistani heritage". Today's headline continues the story with reactions of politicians to yesterday's Times revelations; headline: "Calls for action on 'grotesque' sex gangs": and goes on to report reactions of Nick Clegg and Keith Vaz to [& HERE I QUOTE VERBATIM]"the pattern of offending uncovered in The Times, mostly involving British Pakistani men".

These are straight quotes, Lox; you will find them on p1 of yesterday's and today's Times. My point, as I said, was simply to refute your INACCURATE assertion that only The Sun & The Mail had covered this story. As I said, I had NO FURTHER POINT TO MAKE. YOU DON'T HELP YOUR OWN ARGUMENT BY PROTESTING TOO MUCH, YOU KNOW. I daresay you are an intelligent fellow; some people seem to take your asseverations seriously. But you appear to me all too often as one whose motto is "My mind is made up: do not confuse me with facts".

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 04:15 PM

Well said, 999... and I would add the violent video games.

They are allowed but teaching history in actuality is not. Sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness goes too far
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 04:45 PM

MICHAEL....Thank you for trying to bring Lox up to speed, I suppose he finds it hard to actually read the papers through the froth.

You are quite correct
The Times Jan 5....Full front page.
                   Leader editorial, 4 full pages inside.

The Times Jan 6....Half front page.
                   2 Pages inside.

I read neither the Sun nor the Daily Mail.

"A culture of silence, which has facilitated the sexual exploitation of hundreds of young British girls, is exposed in todays Times.
On street grooming has led to criminal convictions for 56 men in 17 court cases, in towns across the North of England.
The Times investigation has found that the victims were young white girls aged from 11 to 16.
Of the 56 convictions, 3 were white men and 53 were Pakistani, of that 53, 50 were Muslim.

A senior West Mercia police officer has told the Times, that those convicted represent only a small proportion of what is described as "a tidal wave" of offending, which has been uncovered in the North of England.

Other Police sources have called for an end to the damaging taboo surrounding gang led on street grooming, which they blame on the fear by police and child protection workers, of being branded "racist"
"To stop this sort of crime,you need to start talking about it, but everyone has been too scared to expose the ethnicity factor.
No one wants to stand up and say that in some parts of the country, Pakistanis are recruiting young white girls and passing them round their relatives for sex, but we need to stop worrying about the racial complication"

In the Netherlands, 1500 young Dutch girls have been sexually exploited by Morrocan and Turkish muslims in the same pattern as is occuring in the UK, the girls being typically 12 to 16 years of age. they are groomed then used as sex objects by male muslims and their relatives.