BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent

Subject: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 11:32 PM

Study Linking Vaccine to Autism Was Fraud, Journal Reports, by the Associate Press, in the NY Times.

>>LONDON (AP) — The first study to link a childhood vaccine to autism was based on doctored information about the children involved, according to a new report on the widely discredited research.

The conclusions of the 1998 paper by Andrew Wakefield and colleagues was renounced by 10 of its 13 authors and later retracted by the medical journal Lancet, where it was published. Still, the suggestion the MMR shot was connected to autism spooked parents worldwide and immunization rates for measles, mumps and rubella have never fully recovered.

A new examination found, by comparing the reported diagnoses in the paper to hospital records, that Wakefield and colleagues altered facts about patients in their study.

The analysis, by British journalist Brian Deer, found that despite the claim in Wakefield's paper that the 12 children studied were normal until they had the MMR shot, five had previously documented developmental problems. Deer also found that all the cases were somehow misrepresented when he compared data from medical records and the children's parents.

Wakefield could not be reached for comment despite repeated calls and requests to the publisher of his recent book, which claims there is a connection between vaccines and autism that has been ignored by the medical establishment. Wakefield now lives in the U.S. where he enjoys a vocal following including celebrity supporters like Jenny McCarthy.

Deer's article was paid for by the Sunday Times of London and Britain's Channel 4 television network. It was published online Thursday in the medical journal, BMJ.

In an accompanying editorial, BMJ editor Fiona Godlee and colleagues called Wakefield's study "an elaborate fraud." They said Wakefield's work in other journals should be examined to see if it should be retracted.

Last May, Wakefield was stripped of his right to practice medicine in Britain. Many other published studies have shown no connection between the MMR vaccination and autism.

But measles has surged since Wakefield's paper was published and there are sporadic outbreaks in Europe and the U.S. In 2008, measles was deemed endemic in England and Wales.<<

The full story is here: How the case against the MMR vaccine was fixed, by Brian Deer, in the British Medical Journal

Please, share, share, share this -- although, judging by comments in response to the same article on NPR's website, those who have swallowed the hook (of the lies) will inevitably find it hard to cough up.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 11:58 PM

That's "Associated Press", of course.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 12:53 AM

British Medical Journal article Secrets of the MMR scare: how the case against the MMR vaccine was fixed

In the first part of a special BMJ series, Brian Deer exposes the data behind claims that launched a worldwide scare over the measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine, and reveals how the appearance of a link with autism was manufactured at a London medical school. In an accompanying editorial, Fiona Godlee and colleagues say that Andrew Wakefield's (pictured) article linking MMR vaccine and autism was based not on bad science but on a deliberate fraud. In a linked blog, Brian Deer analyses the similarities between the MMR scare and the case of the "Piltdown Man."

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 01:10 AM

Ah, but this won't make a bit of difference to those who believe that vaccines are evil. I've had members of my own family haranguing me for hours about the evils of vaccines. Drives me crazy.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: IanC
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 01:46 AM

I wonder how Andrew Wakefield feels about the hundreds of children who died as a result of this fraud. Was it really woth the half a million pounds he was reportedly paid?

Depressing.
:-(

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 03:13 AM

I believe that autism quite possibly falls into the family of autoimmune diseases and disorders. Too little research going on in this field.

Wakefield should see prison time and have any earnings he gained from this misrepresentation taken from him and disbursed among families of children who suffered or died as result of not getting the MMR vaccines.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: Acorn4
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 03:40 AM

Wakfield an those like him have been trying to find the answer to the question:- "Why are there so many autistic people around nowadays?"

No one has yet come up with a satisfactory answer to this.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: IanC
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 04:15 AM

Wakefield and thos like him have been trying to make money out of fiddling litigation.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 04:17 AM

But Wakefield diddled the findings of his research. He purposely slanted it to support his premise. He deliberately changed reports from families involved in the study.

He also refused to do another study when he was questioned and asked to do so even by the co-authors of the original paper. Why? Perhaps to protect the legitimacy of the original research?

Another study would shine an investigative light on the original work as conditions, processes, whatever would need to be replicated.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 06:08 AM

"Why are there so many autistic people around nowadays?"


Perhaps because the condition was identified and given a name? Before then people were passed over/written off as just weird or troublesome.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 07:41 AM

"Ah, but this won't make a bit of difference to those who believe that vaccines are evil. I've had members of my own family haranguing me for hours about the evils of vaccines. Drives me crazy."

The scourge of the marginally informed.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 07:46 AM

My son had convulsions when he was born and he was put in intensive care under sedation with a 50/50 chance of survival. At the time it was advised not to let him be immunised against whooping cough or measles so we went with the hospital's advice and because there was an issue with the whooping cough vaccine at the end of the 70s suspected to cause some children brain damage. He did pull through and things were going fine for a while until he reached age 2. Any speech that was developing had stopped and by the time he started going to playschool it was evident that he wasn't behaving like the rest of the class or his two cousins born in the same week. Finally in his adulthood it was confirmed that his Aspergers/Autism had slipped through the net, all this time he has had severe bouts of depression not knowing why he was feeling like he was. But back when he was born I took advice of doctors not to immunise him but somehow I wonder if it would have made much difference to the outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 08:07 AM

Well it doesn't take a scientific study to convince the folks I know that the shot cause it. Two specific cases where the family's child was perfect, doc said right on track with all the development markers, then, two weeks after the shot the child disappears into autism.

Shot probably doesn't cause it, but maybe some kids the shot triggers something else that does .. who knows .. mercury contained in the shot as a preservative I think can't be that great for a child. 32 shots by the second year of life ... I like the idea, vaccinate against the big threats .. if your kid is healthy, mumps is not going to hurt your kid. We all had it, we all survived just fine. If you kid is not healthy sure get the full ride. Me I error on the side of caution.   1-150 kids today with autism ... something is going on who knows

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 08:16 AM

And I don't think there is no right or wrong decision, that has to rest with the parents. Lots of kids got the shot, nothing bad happened. Others will swear to their dying day that everything was perfect until the shot and have the records to prove it. It is a terrible situation today for parents and no one here has the answer either as the doc themselves don't have it. For each study that says it is ok, another says no, then another says it is completely safe ... the saga goes on way after this study

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 08:56 AM

This is old news. Just finally getting the press it should have years ago. Criminal, in my opinion. I hope to see a class action suit on behalf of all the families who took his results as science and saw their children suffer or die as a result.
M

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 09:14 AM

US gov had a crap load of studies that said agent orange was safe to use also in Vietnam. I also liked "love canal" there were no adverse problems living on the chemical dump. For every study there are 5 others that conflicts.   The decision should be with the parents. You get a flu shot, they tell you there is a risk of getting the flu although small ... let the parents decide. Nothing is fully safe don't care what it is, nor are the shots fully safe, they are not regardless of study. My grand nephew spent a week in the hospital 2 months ago. He is 15 months old ... reaction to the vaccine. He is fine home and playing but something in the shot caused a reaction. It is documented and the CDC was notified by the hospital. NO there is no completely safe vaccine

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 09:37 AM

There is no "completely safe" ANYTHING including life, and those who think otherwise are simply deluding themselves.

And class, lets review: Correlation is NOT causation.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 09:43 AM

And anecdotal "evidence", isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 10:21 AM

Correct, but the 15 month old is fact not anecdotal ... he had a reaction to the the vaccine. That is fact ... and it is rare 1 out of several hundred thousand but it occurs.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 10:28 AM

Me I don't care what others do, I would never stick that shit again into a healthy baby with the exception of the fatal diseases like polio etc. Kids survive chicken pocks and mumps. Pumping a newborn with mercury at the same time we tell pregnant women not to eat fish makes little sense to me. I only know the horror stories from direct experience with the foundations I work with. I leave it up to the parents to decide what is best for their child.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: GUEST,Goose Gander
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 10:43 AM

For fuck's sake, does anyone really want to go back to the days before immunization? Thousands dead every year, thousands more crippled for life . . . I'll take scientific studies over someone's anecdotal 'evidence' . . .   .

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 10:56 AM

and that is a fine choice for you Goose and if others see it different it is their choice also. At the least me I would wait till a baby is 18 months or more when their system can handle it .. but that is just me and about a million others who have autism in their families. I like the idea of less shots and targeted toward the really nasty diseases. But if you have no issues with autism in your family then sure get all of them because they are probably safe in that case.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: Becca72
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 10:58 AM

Most manufacturers removed mercury from vaccines over a decade ago, yet the rate of autism is rising, not falling...

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 11:01 AM

Only in California they did, most states still allow it and you are right CA is still rising. I have a lot more issues with the many shots that young then just autism.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 11:06 AM

My nephew came down with an illness the shot was suppose to prevent, the shot caused the illness. Thankfully it was one that could be cleared up with IV antibiotics. Something that happen 1 in hundreds of thousands of shots and documented.   We over vaccinate too soon I think .. too soon. If there are school age siblings then maybe the timing is fine. If it is a baby that stays home and isn't dragged out everywhere then waiting for their system to develop makes sense to me. but to each their own

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: Becca72
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 11:14 AM

Johns Hopkins

The information I read did not specify only California; it stated "most manufacturers". Of course, I've since lost the link.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 11:18 AM

thimerosal is a mercury preservative used in most all vaccines. California banned it I think three years ago but it is widely used in all of the state as a "safe and effective preservative" I am no doctor but mercury at any level can't be good.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 11:24 AM

In 2005, 1 out of 15000 Amish kids got autism, Their vaccination rate with MMR was very low, Today I read in Lancaster about 70% of the amish kids get the MMR .. their rate is nearly what we have ...

again statistics can be distorted and lots of other factors come to play. The real truth is we don't know the cause so me personally,   I error on caution and take no offense on those who say it is fine. Both choices are fine with me

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: mousethief
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 11:31 AM

olddude: [b]I am no doctor but mercury at any level can't be good. [/b]

People have had mercury fillings for decades and nobody even blinked. Which health problems would you like to see tied to them? I'm sure you could find a fraudulent study that does so.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 11:38 AM

They don't fill teeth in a 1 day old baby either mouse. I can also handle two shots of Jack Daniels without any problem at all but I doubt a newborn can do that either

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 11:40 AM

For fuck's sake, does anyone really want to go back to the days before immunization?

You Bet! There's thousands of 'em!

the shot caused the illness.

Evidence? None. In some individuals, immunizations do not "take" & he could have acquired the illness quite naturally, despite th immunization.

decision, that has to rest with the parents.

Not if their decision not to vaccinate causes a public health threat or endangers other children, it doesn't. That's criminal negilgence & should be prosecuted acordingly.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 11:47 AM

Not according to the doctors, a confirmed reaction to the immune shot unless of course you were there and treated my nephew. Putting other kids at risk, nope, no one is stopping you from getting the vaccine for your kids then you won't have to worry at all what others decide not to do.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 11:55 AM

You want to force people to do something they choose to either not do or wait and space the shots out. Both approaches make sense to me. If you immunize your kids you don't have to worry about what others choose or not choose to do. I know of few newborns that are in a classroom that will pass something on to other kids. They stick the needle into a baby within 2 hours of birth and it continues 32 times by age two. Over kill I think and dangerous I think, wait for a child's system to develop then get them vaccines that are not life threatening after 18 month .. smart move. But that is my opinion .. everyone has them ..

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 11:58 AM

FDA on Mercury in Childhood Vaccines

In 2001, vaccines stopped being made containing thimerisol, although some have trace amounts. Even though the mercury was virtually removed, autism rates have continued to rise since.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 12:03 PM

Absolutely NOT !! the recommended it ... read the 2007 the urge the use of other preservatives

The FDA is continuing its efforts to reduce the exposure of infants, children, and pregnant women to mercury from various sources. Discussions with the manufacturers of influenza virus vaccines (which are now routinely recommended for pregnant women and children 6-23 months of age) regarding their capacity to potentially increase the supply of thimerosal-reduced and thimerosal-free presentations are ongoing. Discussions are also underway with regard to other vaccines. Of note, all hepatitis B vaccines for the U.S., including for adults, are now available only as thimerosal-free or trace-thimerosal-containing formulations. In addition, all immune globulin preparations including hepatitis B immune globulin, and Rho(D) immune globulin preparations are manufactured without thimerosal. For additional information on the issue of thimerosal in vaccines, see Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs).

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 12:09 PM

It is still widely used, however, in most states you can ask your doc to only use the thimerisol free vaccine. You pay for it, but you can do that

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 12:28 PM

Never once a case of autism in my family ... ever .. in 2005 my grand niece named after my daughter, beautiful healthy, playing baby gets the MMR shot, 3 weeks later the light goes out in her eyes ... severe autism. And my friends with Jack that I wrote "flowers on the moon" 2 weeks later, and Hannah my football coach buddie, 1 month later .. and on an on and on and on ..


do what you want to do ... me no way .. not with my grandson

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 12:34 PM

"In 2005, 1 out of 15000 Amish kids got autism, Their vaccination rate with MMR was very low, Today I read in Lancaster about 70% of the amish kids get the MMR .. their rate is nearly what we have ..."

MMR never had thimerosal or mercury in it.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 12:40 PM

FDA Q & A

Since 2001, all vaccines manufactured for the U.S. market and routinely recommended for children ≤ 6 years of age have contained no thimerosal or only trace amounts (≤ 1 microgram of mercury per dose remaining from the manufacturing process), with the exception of inactivated influenza vaccine. In addition, all of the routinely recommended vaccines that had been previously manufactured with thimerosal as a preservative (some formulations of DTaP, Haemophilus influenzae b conjugate (Hib), and hepatitis B vaccines) had reached the end of their shelf life by January 2003.

Also note that immune globulin is given to people who've been exposed to a disease such as HepB and have NOT been immunized.

My opinion is that there's far more risk from these diseases than from the vaccine. I had the usual childhood diseases before vaccinations were available. I had mumps and varicella, I had chicken pox bad enough to leave scars and the usual lingering risk of shingles. I almost died from measles, and I'm not sure the high fever didn't leave some damage behind. It's the parents' choice of which risk to take, even if the parents won't be the ones to suffer most, or at least, most directly. It's not an easy choice to make, especially if it's based on belief and not known, provable facts. I'm not at the stage now where I can say I'm sure about anything, even if I believe that the risk from all of these diseases is worse than than from the vaccines. I can understand the questions.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 12:42 PM

if you think it is absolutely safe get them the MMR shot, in my family .. one with autism, the other put the baby boy in the hospital for 2 days with an infection the docs never see anymore. By the way the insurance turned it over to the government for compensation since it is a known reported rare side effect. MMR today contains trace amounts of mercury still although most been removed. It is a drug company bs that says it never had it. Lots of university studies had it in all kinds of levels, they also use formaldehyde and aluminum ... people don't realize that either. Most newborns are under 8 lbs ... how great that is to put it right into the blood stream

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 12:47 PM

well no one has the answer and that is the problem. I look at the law of large numbers and say ... way too many folks I know all with the same story ... a month or less after the shot, I lost my kid ... so what is the cause ... no one knows but few healthy babies die from mumps so I will hold my position

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 12:57 PM

"MMR today contains trace amounts of mercury still although most been removed. It is a drug company bs that says it never had it."

Actually the FDA says it, but of course they are all a part of the conspiracy.

Scroll down to the bottom of the page to the tables that show what vaccines do or do not or never have had thimerosal in them.

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 01:28 PM

If the shot contained only salt water I would not put the fuckin thing into my grandson, I can only state that everyone from my family to about three quarters of the autism community all says the same exact thing. My kid was fine, healthy , happy , perfect, I got him the MMR shot less than a month later I lost my child nuff said

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 02:09 PM

I find this interesting
British study

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 02:12 PM

As for the English studies (Lancet, 1999; 353: 2026-9), these also represent massaging of epidemiological data. The authors examined 498 children diagnosed as autistic in eight North Thames health districts and compared clinical data with immunisation records to see if there was a temporal relationship between the onset of the condition and receipt of the MMR jab. They also looked at the overall incidence of autism to determine whether an increase had indeed occurred after the introduction of MMR in Britain.

According to this study, there was no link found in the 498 children studied. Overall, autism hadn't increased within a timeframe that could pin it to the jab.
In regard to the no link British Study -
The authors themselves admit that the study design and this kind of broad brush epidemiological sweep is weak.

Autism has increased dramatically in the North Thames health districts by 25 per cent every year. Although the study says that this increase occurred in children born before the MMR was released in 1998, that ignores the PHLS's 'catch up' policy of vaccinating children born between 1985-6 with MMR when they were age two or three, as soon as the triple jab was introduced.

If you take these children into account, there would be a significant increase in autism cases in children born in 1986 if the MMR jab was responsible. Indeed, the figures show just such a peak. Furthermore, there is also a large peak of parents who first noticed autistic symptoms in their children six months after the children had the jab.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 02:20 PM

Complications from mumps are uncommon, but can be dangerous. They include memingitis, encephalalitis, and hearing loss, usually permanent.
Association of the vaccine with conditions such as autism is coincidental.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 02:31 PM

Then go ahead and vaccinate your grand kid with MMR .. I had the mumps, every kid born in the 50's had the mumps, I never met or knew a single case that caused anything more than bed rest for 3 days. But I can give you 100 phone numbers of moms and dads that say their kid was absolutely fine until the MMR shot, let the parents decide. Funny thing until the mid eighties this wasn't really a problem, same time frame as the MMR shot ... call me silly

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 03:31 PM

I can give you 100 phone numbers of moms and dads that say their kid was absolutely fine until the MMR...

And I can give YOU a thousand phone numbers of moms an dads that say they have been abducted by space aliens and had horrible experiments performed upon them aboard spacecraft.

In either case, don't make it so.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 03:39 PM

Then get your grand kids the shot, it works for you ... rock on ..
me I will not advise anyone at anytime to do it unless their baby is not healthy ... don't take an alien to know that this didn't occur before the 1980 did it ... no .. not even close to these numbers. In Japan they eliminated the combo shot .. yup the autism rates went up .. ok. yea but they still give the kids the shots ... only three separate ones ... so what one pushes them over the edge .. me, I walk away and advise people to do the same

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 03:49 PM

why not give them an anthrax also for that matter ... oh yea the gov says the vaccine has dangerous side effects. The soldiers who went into the golf could opt out of that one, most did. Vaccines have side effect some simple some dangerous. Do whatever you want with your own family ... let others do the same. No affect on your since yours got the shot and are protected . Parents are between a rock and a hard place on this one. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck a reasonable person who experience what a duck is would figure it out. Most of the families I know have. Why not do a study where they completely eliminated those three vaccines for a 3 year period and see what happens instead of just changing the fucking delivery system from 1 shot to three and say see we were right ... Oh they could, just look at some of the autism rates in the poorer countries that don't pump that shit into their kids

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 03:59 PM

1 out of 1000 kids in China, wonder how many Chinese kids get that shot
and a lot of other poorer nations ... same ..

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 03:59 PM

For the record, they could NOT "opt out." Or they could have, but then they'd receive a discharge. Of all the vaccines I knew were given, and of all the vaccinated, the worst complaint was a sore arm. I'm guessing that corresponds to complaints from others who have received the vaccine over the years.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 04:11 PM

The anthrax I am pretty sure was optional, but that maybe government workers not the military, I don't remember actually, have to look it up

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 04:22 PM

It wasn't optional. I was Non-Commissioned Officer in Charge of Public Health at a large Air Force Base, and I oversaw the admin parts of the Immunization Clinic. I reported number/percentages of deployees vaccinated, I kept track of adverse reactions and refusals. A person who refused the vaccine could not be deployed to areas for which it was required. If they couldn't be deployed, they couldn't do their jobs, and their fellow airmen, and those in their chain of command couldn't trust them to be there in the event of an attack.

There were a few who were discharged.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 04:25 PM

...and that applies to military folks. I'm not sure about government workers deployed in country. Olddude may be right.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: GUEST,Goose Gander
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 08:44 PM

olddude, would you like to see a good, old-fashioned polio revival? Because that (and a lot of other nasty shit) is the logical result of an end to immunization. And that will NOT affect only your kids, it will affect EVERYONE.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 08:53 PM

No goose my issue is with the MMR shot only

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 09:01 PM

From Wikipedia:

"The benefit of measles vaccination in preventing illness, disability, and death has been well-documented. The first 20 years of licensed measles vaccination in the U.S. prevented an estimated 52 million cases of the disease, 17,400 cases of mental retardation, and 5,200 deaths.[10] During 1999–2004, a strategy led by the World Health Organization and UNICEF led to improvements in measles vaccination coverage that averted an estimated 1.4 million measles deaths worldwide.[11]"

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 09:03 PM

People should vaccinate against the biggies, the only thing everyone I talk to and with my family is the MMR, that one and it is lights out. I know families that have 2 or more autistic kids, all right after the MMR. Yet the other kids that got just the biggies .. no issue. It needs studied. I am sorry the British doctor saying it was bad was a flawed study, the new British study saying it was ok is a flawed study .. They got to look at this and it has been like pulling teeth to get the gov to actually study it serious. That shot to me and a couple of million others is a lifetime sentence of dispair

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: andrew e
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 09:20 PM

You take your chances with, and you take your chances without!

Myself I go for the without.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 09:22 PM

and over that 20 year period Autism climbed from rate to now 1 out of 150 or 1 out of every 90 in the case of males ...

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 09:24 PM

In the UK the number is 1 out of 100, what was it before 1986 when the vaccine was introduced in the UK ... I don't know I don't live there but I suspect is was rare

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 09:31 PM

Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry

Volume 46, Issue 6, pages 572–579, June 2005

No effect of MMR withdrawal on the incidence of autism: a total population study

   1. Hideo Honda1,
   2. Yasuo Shimizu1,
   3. Michael Rutter2

Background:  A causal relationship between the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine and occurrence of autism spectrum disorders (ASD) has been claimed, based on an increase in ASD in the USA and the UK after introduction of the MMR vaccine. However, the possibility that this increase is coincidental has not been eliminated. The unique circumstances of a Japanese MMR vaccination program provide an opportunity for comparison of ASD incidence before and after termination of the program.

Methods:  This study examined cumulative incidence of ASD up to age seven for children born from 1988 to 1996 in Kohoku Ward (population approximately 300,000), Yokohama, Japan. ASD cases included all cases of pervasive developmental disorders according to ICD-10 guidelines.

Results:  The MMR vaccination rate in the city of Yokohama declined significantly in the birth cohorts of years 1988 through 1992, and not a single vaccination was administered in 1993 or thereafter. In contrast, cumulative incidence of ASD up to age seven increased significantly in the birth cohorts of years 1988 through 1996 and most notably rose dramatically beginning with the birth cohort of 1993.

Conclusions:  The significance of this finding is that MMR vaccination is most unlikely to be a main cause of ASD, that it cannot explain the rise over time in the incidence of ASD, and that withdrawal of MMR in countries where it is still being used cannot be expected to lead to a reduction in the incidence of ASD.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 09:33 PM

We live in different countries, we live in different states, we eat different food, we breath different air, we drink different water, so what do we have in common that all our kids are getting autism and it has climbed to such proportions? The introduction of the MMR vaccine that we give to all our kids no matter where we live pushed and pushed on the parents over the last 20 + years. Now granted the definition of autism has changed and become more broad, that accounts for some of the numbers ... but not these rates

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 09:34 PM

Another study finds no MMR-autism link

By Amy Norton

NEW YORK | Mon Jan 4, 2010 12:04pm EST

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - A new study provides further evidence that the measles-mumps-rubella vaccine is not associated with an increased risk of autism.

This latest study included 96 Polish children ages 2 to 15 who had been diagnosed with autism. Researchers compared each child with two healthy children the same age and sex who had been treated by the same doctor.

Some of the children had received the MMR vaccine, while others had not been vaccinated at all or had received a vaccine against measles only.

Poland has been slower to introduce the MMR than other European countries, but over the past decade, the vaccine has slowly been replacing the measles-only shot.

Overall, the study found, children who had received the MMR vaccine actually had a lower risk of autism than their unvaccinated peers. Nor was there any evidence of an increased autism risk with the measles-only vaccine.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60330220100104

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 11:17 PM

The study is also flawed, the sample size of that population in the study is so small that you can make any assertion you like. Will someone do a fucking study that has real scientific merit before we lose a global generation of kids ...

They won't because there will be 10 million lawsuits against the drug companies ... so they will make the result be anything they want ... sure the water is deep enough there are no rocks ... jump off the cliff ..

Tell it to all the folks I know that lost their kids immediately after the shot

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 11:19 PM

It seems my wife has won this long standing argument and I have lost.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 11:28 PM

No study ever done globally, in the last 20 years the entire world has autism numbers that are appalling. WE have completely different environmental factors yet the only common thread in the last 20 years is the MMR vaccine and nobody does a global serious scientific double blind study anywhere. They poll some doctors, a handful of kids in one and only one region as was done in the UK, doctors who may or may not report, or keep the records and then yell .. wow see we were right no connection, yet everyday people say, 6 weeks ago my baby was playing talking and laughing ... after the shot .. she sits there staring into space. doesn't talk anymore ...

what is it going to take to get a real study done ... sure won't be done by the international drug companies.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 11:42 PM

In the polish study, how many kids, did they get the combined vaccine or just the measles vaccine, was the other shots given how were they spaced apart, who kept the records, what locations , nationwide or regional, what control was done in the test, was it a blind study. Again smoke up the ass study ..

a joke like everyone I have seen, we will keep losing our kids, that is a fact unless someone addresses this issue. If we can rule out environment (logic tells me we can since it is global) then what is going on with our babies in the last 20 years globally .. for me and most I know it is the MMR, either combined into one dose or give separate in one visit .. all the parents have the same consistent story that a short time later, their kid is lost. Something is nuts up here bad and we better figure it out soon as a global society. This is a new (last 20 year event)

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 04:22 AM

There are studies being conducted to determine if there is a link between immunization and autoimmune disorders. Nothing conclusive found yet, but at least they are looking into it.

I would like to say that both of my grandmothers (neither one immunized) had autoimmune hypothyroidism, which passed to my father and mother and subsequently to me and both my daughters.

Also, when I was born, I was covered in eczema. This prior to any vaccination. So I am inclined to think that autoimmune conditions (of which I believe autism is included) is attributed to genetic mutations caused by exposure to environmental toxins.

BTW... the mercury in vaccines is a different type and of such trace amount. Not really comparable to ingestion of the mercury found in oily fish which can build up in the body. The mercury used in vaccines is passed by the body.

Thimerosal contains ethylmercury, and about 49 per cent of thimerosal is made up of this form of mercury. Ethylmercury is different than methylmercury; the latter is an organic form of mercury and it is the one that is known to lead to brain damage. Methylmercury is found in the environment, with the main concern for humans being the consumption of food like tuna fish that contain this kind of mercury. Ethylmercury is different in that the body can eliminate it much more quickly compared to methylmercury. It is also less likely for ethylmercury to hit toxic levels in the bloodstream.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 07:46 AM

Google Scholar is a search engine of scientific publications. A search for MMR causing autism yields hundreds of results of studies showing that there is no correlation between MMR vaccine and autism. The only one I have been able to find that shows some correlation is the Wakefield one that has been discredited as fraudulent.

Draw your own conclusions.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 08:34 AM

The increase in debilitating asthma in children has also grown over the past 40 years. Related? Coincidental?

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 09:45 AM

The problem is they don't want to look at this, I read the published article from the AMA touting the "excellent British study" refuting Wakefield, and it was controlled through 498 kids. Yet the docs from Harvard, Yale , Standford all say the same thing, no that study is seriously flawed as was Wakefields, like I pasted on this thread. Yet the AMA immediately jumps on saying told you so.

Every go to the doctor and he does listen when you say, doc I keep getting these headaches. Then one day he does a cat scan and finds something really serious. That is what moms and dads are trying to tell them, lost my kid after this shot .. but they don't want to hear it or listen or even study to see if it is true.

When senator Barden of Texas blocked the autism bill initially, it was because the added lines we would look at the environmental issues including MMR to try and understand the extreme increase. He didn't like that, no sir, more than half of his support money came from the drug companies, fact is they don't want to find out. They dug their heels in and that is what they are going to do. In the meantime worldwide the same story occurs ..

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 09:56 AM

1 in 10,000 in 1970 in the US
today 1 in 150 (1 in 90) for boys

vaccination

AUTISM PREVALENCE in the United States has soared. In 1970, Treffert et. al. published the first known
autism prevalence study in the United States, Epidemiology of Infantile Autism, with an autism prevalence rate
of less than 1 per 10,000. In 1987, Burd et. al. published a study, A prevalence study of pervasive developmental
disorders in North Dakota, showing an autism rate of 3.3 per 10,000. In 2007, the Centers for Disease Control's
Autism and Developmental Disabilities Monitoring Network released data showing that prevalence of
autism had grown to 66 per 10,000 or 1 in 150, an increase of more than 6,000% from the 1970 study.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 10:17 AM

I used to investigate foodborne illnesses. I'd see people who had been diagnosed with salmonellosis. Almost always, people were sure where they got it. It was often the last thing they ate, usually something they weren't happy with, right before they got sick.

Salmonella has an incubation period of 12-74 hours, with the average of 18-36 hours. I'd tell them that, but it didn't matter. FACTS didn't matter. It was the thing they ate right before they got sick. Salmonellosis is not even remotely as serious as autism.

The symptoms of autism seem to begin sometime around the same age as the kids are given the shots. That doesn't mean the shots have anything to do with autism. Especially when so much is available that says not.

While I think the possibilities should be thoroughly examined, I don't think the facts will matter. They haven't mattered yet. I think that what people choose to believe in takes precedence over facts that conflict with that believe, OR the question remaining because of a lack of facts, there is no point in discussing it. It's more about perception and belief than facts and intent to understand.

I'm thinking that any study not proving what some people "know" is true will be called "flawed".

I'm not saying I'm 100% sure autism couldn't have something to do with the vaccine, just that it doesn't seem likely. What else isn't likely is that anything positive will occur from me continuing to discuss this, as it's being discussed more like religion than science. I'm done.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 10:22 AM

Jeri
if we look at what happened in the UK, just 1 example. They have completely different environmental factors then we do. Before 1986 and then after 1986 when the shot was widely accepted, the numbers grew at an appalling rate as in this country. So is it the shot, I don't know, but I sure want it studied since we always look for a common based when dealing with anything, what changed , what do the two countries have in common since then that specifically targets babies.

Logic tells me it is here but sure I can be wrong ... but I will error on the conservative with my grandson as my daughter and her husband stated. Others can do as they see right

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 10:44 AM

What is disturbing is this, we spend trillions on war, trillions bailing out wall street. Well we are losing a generation of kids and it sure looks like everyone is sitting on the sideline saying OH well shit happens. I read once that it costs over 50K per year per autistic child's education. Maybe if it is money that is the only concern for some people then they should do it just for that since our kids seem to matter little. Some government someplace better come up with the answers.

Fact is, the studies are flawed in both directions, not me talking but the docs from the big medical universities. Lets study the vaccines and a host of other things that countries like the US and UK have in common since the rise in autism and get to the bottom of it. Makes no sense letting people hanging and guessing. WE have resources for wall street and wars but not our kids I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: EBarnacle
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 01:40 PM

I find it interesting that the initial, fraudulent, report was based on 12 cases. Larger studies have failed to support the data from the study.

The nature of the scientific method is replicability. If you cannot replicate it, it is not valid.

Having been a psychologist [not currently] and statistician for more than 20 years, I have watched the DSM [Diagnostic and Statistical Manual] expand from a small booklet to a rather hefty book. There are diagnoses for disorders which did not even begin to be classified when I began.

My son and I suffer from similar problems. He is classified as being disgraphic and being relatively low on the ASM scale [see above]. I am old enough to have not been exposed to MMR, he got it. I suffered through the various diseases, he did not. Is it possible that exposure to the diseases, even the "dead" forms used in vaccines, could cause the problems?

Viri incorporate themselves into our genetic codes and can be passed along when we reproduce.

We don't have answers, only questions.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 02:20 PM

Don't tell that eminent autism researcher, Jenny McCarthy, that autism is not caused by vaccine. She'll tell you it does...and she has an autistic child to prove it.

For those of you who are unfamiliar with Ms McCarthy, her day job is actress, mostly in sex comedies, and Playboy centerfold.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: EBarnacle
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 02:54 PM

Individual cases, while painful, may still not add up to statistical significance. If you seem to have a collection of them in a single family or location, that would seem to militate for other causes.

And, as mentioned above, correlation is not causation. We are complex genetically arranged animals.

If autism is genetically caused, that implies that, once an "autism gene" is found, there may be a virus that can reverse it.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 02:58 PM

Ebarn
you are absolutely right in the change of definition of the disorder. I read once that if we applied the 1970 standard to today's rate it would not be 1 out of 150 but more like 1 out of 400 .. still incredibly high from 1 out of 10,000 as in 1970 .. something sure has changed with our children, and that has to be extended across nations not just the US. We are left with only questions. Hence it is reasonable for people to ask and question the safety of a new vaccine introduced since then since it is a common thread across nations. In the past when polio was the scourge, it affected 1 out of 2500 kids. This nation when to war to end polio .. why not such an effort to find and eliminate Autism? Go figure

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 03:22 PM

Possibly because the cause of Polio had been identified and the "cause" or causes of Autism have not? Other than in the overheated imaginations of some non-scientific true believers?

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 03:51 PM

I am delighted that you know the cause of autism, please share it with the rest of the 10 million families so we won't be non scientific anymore and won't need to worry about our kids. very glad you have the answer to this crisis affecting the world.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 03:57 PM

yup and I believe everything the FDA and the AMA tells me, just like celebrex was very safe and Oxycontin was non addicting and safe ... that is until people started dying .. Oh yea when steroids first came out they were the magic cure for arthritis until people started dying from the side effects of that also. And yes ever vaccine is 100% safe can't possibly cause any issues ... Bend over and take the shot if you like it ... you do have your choice nobody certainly not me is stoping anyone

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 04:08 PM

Well we all can now figure out what we are going to do with a few million kids that will be in a home and how we will take care of them because apparently the gov doesn't give a rats ass as what causes it. If they find out tomorrow I am right, it does nothing to help those I love who already have it ... But you decide what you want to do with your kids. I hope and pray that they don't go lights out afterwords like a zillion other families are saying. Yup maybe those people all are speaking out their ass , could be .. I tend to not believe one, but I do tend to believe thousands of people. But that is just me, to each their own. I will leave this thread now

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: Acorn4
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 06:13 PM

Our autistic son is now 22. When he was 8 we were investigating lots of different approaches, one of which was diet. We went to visit one of the top specialists in the country on allergy/intolerance. After a number of tests, he said that he'd discovered that he'd got mercury in his bloodstream and prescribed a course of selenium to chase it out.
This was a few years before the "mercury" theory appeared.

Obviously the damage had already been done.

Remember the experts said the Titanic couldn't sink.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 09:00 PM

I am delighted that you know the cause of autism, please share it with the rest of the 10 million families so we won't be non scientific anymore and won't need to worry about our kids. very glad you have the answer to this crisis affecting the world.


Errr- 'scuse me? Now your getting as bit irrational. I said no such thing as you imply. No-one, including me, knows the cause/causes of this syndrome - not medical condition, not disease, not auto-immune disorder, but syndrome: a collection of recognized symptoms & behavious.

[the doctor] said that he'd discovered that he'd got mercury in his bloodstream....

And the SOURCE of this mercury was...?

And the doctor proved that it was the cause of your son's difficulties how, exactly?

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 10:18 PM

If you study autism you will see many parents doing Chelation therapy, an experimental very expensive procedure to remove heavy metals from the child's bloodstream. High mercury levels in the blood of an autistic child is not at all uncommon and is one of the things many docs look for. And the shots contain mercury.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 10:20 PM

Mercury poisoning (also known as hydrargyria or mercurialism) is a disease caused by exposure to mercury or its compounds. Mercury (chemical symbol Hg) is a heavy metal that occurs in several forms, all of which can produce toxic effects in high enough doses. Its zero oxidation state Hg0 exists as vapor or as liquid metal, its mercurous state Hg+ exists as inorganic salts, and its mercuric state Hg2+ may form either inorganic salts or organomercury compounds; the three groups vary in effects. Toxic effects include damage to the brain, kidney, and lungs.[1] Mercury poisoning can result in several diseases, including acrodynia (pink disease), Hunter-Russell syndrome, and Minamata disease.[2]

Symptoms typically include sensory impairment (vision, hearing, speech), disturbed sensation and a lack of coordination. The type and degree of symptoms exhibited depend upon the individual toxin, the dose, and the method and duration of exposure.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 12:30 PM

I know exactly what mercury poisoning is, and what it's symptoms are, thank you very much. I assume you've checked on how much mercury is required to produce these symptoms? [as I have]

you will see many parents doing Chelation therapy, an experimental very expensive procedure

Yes, I will - in many cases without any evidence whatsoever that their children HAVE heavy metal poisoning. Its called "grasping at straws". [P.S.- if the child is already displaying symptoms of autism,it would seem rather a pointless exercise, would it not?]

Now, what is the SOURCE of the "high levels of mercury" in SOME, not all, autistic children, particularly since the amount of mercuric compound once and no longer used in the vaccinations you irrationally condemn is so infinetesimal that it could in no way produce "high levels of mercury" in their blood if thet were vaccinated eavch and every day for a year...

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 01:14 PM

Then inject your kid with it since it is so safe and stop telling others what they should do. Let people decide on their own until this government and all the other ones wants to actually try and find out the source. Me , I got docs with autism in their family that say ,, yup right after the MMR, Moms, Dads and tens of thousands saying the same thing.   yet some smug folks sit there and try to say ... it is all some kind of delusion. I don't have to get hit in the head with a rock to know it is going to hurt... No one is stopping anyone from getting any shot. You think it is safe, do it, you think it is not don't ..

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 01:19 PM

No one is stopping anyone from getting any shot.

Untrue, unfortunately.

Increasing numbers of hysterical parents, on the basis of "belief", not factual evidence, are preventing their kids from being vaccinated, thereby endangering both their own children and those of everyone else.

Ought to be prosecuted for child abuse - like members of various religious sects have successfully been for denying their children medical treatment- and for reckless endangerment of other people's children.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 01:26 PM

and so should a whole bunch of people for putting heavy metal into a newborns bloodstream 36 times. Great you have the answers, people been looking a contradictory reports for the last 15 years. Harvard docs saying no level of any form of mercury is safe, then FDA docs counter saying so small can't be the problem, roll the dice with your kid if you want, I don't buy this bullshit where number go from 1 in 10000 to 1 - 150 right after the introduction of a new vaccine. You are most welcome to it. Like a lot of parents and grandparents I will error on caution with a healthy child. You can sit there smug and say everyone but you is wrong ... tell that to the zillion parents this happened to right after the MMR and go ahead and believe what the AMA and FDA tells you. I think I may still have some meds that were "completely safe" and now pulled that you can have if you want in my drawer someplace.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 02:36 PM

A pretty good discussion with a doc and a mom
href="http://www.themedicalquestions.com/illness/does-mmr-cause-autism.html">good

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 06:04 PM

I'd be the first to admit - wait! I've already admitted it several times!- I DON'T have the answer or answers.

Point is, you don't either, Oldster.

And again, please remember correlation is not causation.

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: olddude
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 06:13 PM

Agreed Greg, I agree and I sure don't either, by God I wish either one of us was right at least we would have some answers my friend

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 06:20 PM

Now, THAT I can agree with!!

Subject: RE: BS: original vaccine-autism study fraudulent
From: Acorn4
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 04:22 AM

Don't forget Tony Blair said the vaccine was safe - so it must be true!