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Origins: Go to Sleep folk song

GUEST,Rochelle 10 Jan 11 - 06:04 PM
GUEST,leeneia 11 Jan 11 - 09:58 AM
Taconicus 11 Jan 11 - 10:32 AM
GUEST,Grishka 11 Jan 11 - 02:25 PM
maeve 11 Jan 11 - 02:35 PM
maeve 11 Jan 11 - 02:43 PM
maeve 11 Jan 11 - 02:53 PM
GUEST 11 Jan 11 - 03:33 PM
GUEST,Rochelle 11 Jan 11 - 03:33 PM
GUEST,Rochelle 11 Jan 11 - 03:51 PM
GUEST,Rochelle 11 Jan 11 - 04:19 PM
maeve 11 Jan 11 - 07:29 PM
GUEST,Rochelle 11 Jan 11 - 07:37 PM
maeve 11 Jan 11 - 07:48 PM
GUEST,leeneia 12 Jan 11 - 01:04 PM
maeve 12 Jan 11 - 01:06 PM
GUEST,leeneia 12 Jan 11 - 01:13 PM
Taconicus 12 Jan 11 - 01:50 PM
HampsteadDirtFarmer 12 Jan 11 - 02:00 PM
Taconicus 12 Jan 11 - 02:09 PM
maeve 12 Jan 11 - 02:18 PM
GUEST,Rochelle 12 Jan 11 - 02:57 PM
Taconicus 12 Jan 11 - 02:58 PM
Taconicus 12 Jan 11 - 03:05 PM
GUEST 12 Jan 11 - 03:06 PM
GUEST,Rochelle 12 Jan 11 - 03:13 PM
maeve 12 Jan 11 - 03:16 PM
maeve 12 Jan 11 - 03:19 PM
maeve 12 Jan 11 - 03:26 PM
GUEST 12 Jan 11 - 03:31 PM
maeve 12 Jan 11 - 03:54 PM
maeve 12 Jan 11 - 04:59 PM
GUEST,Rochelle 12 Jan 11 - 05:13 PM
maeve 12 Jan 11 - 05:24 PM
GUEST,Rochelle 12 Jan 11 - 05:38 PM
maeve 12 Jan 11 - 05:46 PM
maeve 12 Jan 11 - 05:54 PM
GUEST,leeneia 12 Jan 11 - 06:03 PM
maeve 12 Jan 11 - 06:27 PM
GUEST,Rochelle 12 Jan 11 - 06:30 PM
maeve 12 Jan 11 - 06:35 PM
maeve 12 Jan 11 - 06:41 PM
maeve 12 Jan 11 - 06:50 PM
maeve 12 Jan 11 - 06:53 PM
maeve 13 Jan 11 - 10:12 AM
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Subject: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: GUEST,Rochelle
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 06:04 PM

Hello, I just found this song on youtube by a singer called Aafje Heynis

Here is the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBrIbx-U-fw

I can't seem to find anything about this song, not even the lyrics, I can barely make some of them out due to the singer's accent.

It sounds like Down to the shore with my Bairnie and over a fairy boat with my barnie. Oh

"chill" and be patient till the snow it is melted

Lie down now, yes my bairnes-I guessed that she was saying bairnie as the word is Scottish for children or babies and it sounds like a lullaby.

And I think she's saying "Snowing" at the end of the piece? Anyone have any of the origins of this song and possibly the lyrics?

Go to sleep now Bairnie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 09:58 AM

Hi, Rochelle. That's beautiful singing, but I can't understand it either. I don't think it's a question of accent, it's a question of enunciation. Apparently opera singers don't care if people understand them.

A couple years ago I attended a new opera based on Little Women. Even though the singers were singing in English, I still had to read the prompt screen to understand them.

I hope somebody comes along who knows these words.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: Taconicus
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 10:32 AM

Oh children, be patient till the snow it is melted.

I think the woman may be German or Dutch. You can hear her singing Annie Laurie on this page.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 02:25 PM

Aafje Heynis is Dutch, and her YouTubes in German and Italian are not pronounced any better. As Leenia writes, it's not only her accent, but her general treatment of the consonants is not up to today's standard.

Nowadays, opera and lieder singers are required to pronounce the main languages (Italian, German, French, English, Russian, and Czech) clearly and without too strong an accent. Some of the most famous singers of the past wouldn't get hired now, even those who are unsurpassed in other aspects.

In some operas, the libretti were not considered important traditionally, often because they were considered horrible. "Prima la musica" - "music first" was the slogan. However, this never applied to songs. And nowadays we also want to understand the lyrics of Donizetti's operas, which actually are not all that bad.

Anyway, the line that Taconius understands is unknown to Google, so you experts have your challenge.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: maeve
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 02:35 PM

Sounds to me like this one:

http://academic.evergreen.edu/w/williams/songs/birds_lullaby.html
The Bird's Lullaby


Go to sleep now, go to sleep now, birdíní, birdíní
Go to sleep now, go to sleep now, birdíní, birdíní

Seothín, seothín [hush, hush]
Éaníní, éaníní [little birds, little birds]
Seothín, seothín [hush, hush]
Éaníní, éaníní [little birds, little birds]

East to Ardmór, with the birdíní, birdíní [ard=high, mór=great]
West to the shore, with the birdíní, birdíní

East to Trámhór, with the birdíní, birdíní [trá=strand, mór=great]
Over the fairy coast with the birdíní, birdíní

Lie down now, lie down now ye small birds, ye small birds
Lie down now, lie down now ye small birds, ye small birds

Go to sleep now, go to sleep now, birdíní, birdíní
Go to sleep now, go to sleep now, birdíní, birdíní

Seothín, seothín [hush, hush]
Éaníní, éaníní [little birds, little birds]
Seothín, seothín [hush, hush]
Éaníní, éaníní [little birds, little birds]


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: maeve
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 02:43 PM

A link with information about the intent of the Evergreen.edu site is found here:


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: maeve
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 02:53 PM

There may be something of interest here: Songs with related refrains...Mudcat thread

That "birdíní" is a stumbling block for me.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 03:33 PM

Wow thanks so much guys, I hope I can get some more insight. I'll check out some of those links.

Bird's Lullaby does sound close, I'll see if I can find a version of that and see if it sounds similar.-it could just be the words that are similar and the melody that's derived from another traditional folk tune.

I do agree, singing has made vast leaps and bounds especially concerning opera. I don't think Aafji had much of an opportunity to train herself as well as other singers due to WW2. She had a lovely voice though and the song is very haunting.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: GUEST,Rochelle
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 03:33 PM

Hi, the guest was me! Sorry about that, I always forget to put my name in the space above.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: GUEST,Rochelle
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 03:51 PM

Now thinking about it and listening to the song again she could very well be singing birdy instead of bairnie, I'm just so used to the word being used in Scottish and English lullabies


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: GUEST,Rochelle
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 04:19 PM

Maeve-What language are some of those words in Bird's Lullaby? Are they Gaelic?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: maeve
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 07:29 PM

Rochelle, it is at least a form of Irish Gaelic. The birdíní, birdíní" bit isn't Irish as far as I can recall. We have some fine Irish scholars here from time to time. I hope some of them wander through your thread.

And Rochelle, were you to join Mudcat, you could also send and receive Private Messages. You also wouldn't have to sign in unless your cookie was mislaid.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: GUEST,Rochelle
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 07:37 PM

Thank you, I'm contemplating joining being an enthusiast of folk music, but I'm not sure yet. I drop in from time to time, usually to look up info about folk songs, but I'll have to think about it.

Also, thank you for your input, I've never heard the word birdini used in any Irish tune myself.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: maeve
Date: 11 Jan 11 - 07:48 PM

I understand. I followed a similar procedure before I became a member. I'll trace this thread so I can be sure to check back here.

Regards,

Maeve


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 01:04 PM

Thanks very much, maeve!

It's a lovely song worth resurrecting.

I wonder if 'birdini' is a macaronic word - combining the English 'bird' with an Italianate '-ini' ending.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: maeve
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 01:06 PM

Yes, leeneia. I wondered about that, as well.

The melody still haunts me. I have heard and sung it.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 01:13 PM

Rochelle, you're right about:

Oh, chill and be patient till the snow is melted, snow is melted

Other words:

West to Ardmór, with the birdíní, birdíní
East to Trámhór, with the birdíní, birdíní

Down to the shore and o'er the ???

We've almost got it!

Those Irish words Maeve quoted (Seothín, seothín Éaníní, éaníní) don't occur.

It's funny - after I see the words one time, the song seems perfectly clear.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: Taconicus
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 01:50 PM

What?! You can't be serious. "Chill" wasn't even slang back when that was recorded. It's obviously "Oh children be patient..."


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: HampsteadDirtFarmer
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 02:00 PM

Re 'Chill'. Hehe! Ah, but Taconicus, the folk tradition is an evolving creature and therefore 'chill' might be deemed a valid coinage.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: Taconicus
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 02:09 PM

Those Irish words Maeve quoted (Seothín, seothín Éaníní, éaníní) don't occur.
Actually, Éan is Irish Gaelic for bird, and Seóthín is also Irish Gaelic. For example, in the traditional Irish song Suantrai (Seothin Seotho).
Seóthín, seóthó, mo stóirín, mo leanbh,
Mo sheoid gan chealg, mo chuid den tsaol mhór.
Seóthín, seóthó, nach mór é a taithneamh,
Mo stóirín ina leaba, 'na chodladh gan brón.
A leanbh mo chléibh, go n-éiri do chodladh leat,
Séan agus sonas a choice 'do chomhair.
Seo beannacht Mhic Dé agus téagar a Bhuime leat.
Téir a chodladh gan bíogadh go ló.

[Etc.]
Seothin and Seotho are soothing words having no English translation.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: maeve
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 02:18 PM

Thank you for the added information, Taconicus. Am I to understand that as "Éan" is "bird" that "-íní" is an Irish diminutive? I regret I am not as familiar with the lovely language as I'd like.

Maeve


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: GUEST,Rochelle
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 02:57 PM

lol, I wasn't really thinking of the word chill as in the slang, "chill homies" or anything like that. I was thinking of the word chill as it's relevant to winter and cold, the literal meaning of the actual word. Rethinking that, I'm not sure how much sense the word makes...so what on earth is she singing instead?

Soethin Soethin
Éaníní, éaníní

These definitely occur at the very end of the song, I can hear them now.

At first I thought she was singing snowing, snowing, but reading the lyrics it makes much more sense for her to be singing Soethin. It's no wonder I had no idea of what she was singing, she was singing in a different language. I couldn't decipher Eanini for the life me.

I also thought she was singing down the shore and o're a ferry boat with my birdie, or birdini. It appears that she's changed these stanza, west to Armoir, East to Tramhor, DOWN to the shore, and over a fairy BOAT. This is definitely Boat instead of coast, at least I don't hear a C at all in that word. It could be fairy-there could be mythical things in this lullaby and it does appear to be a narrated journey of sorts the child-who may have changed into a bird? Or is dreaming of a bird?- is supposed to be dreaming of, or it could just be a ferryboat.

Most of the lyrics posted make sense, some of them seem a bit switched and then there's that whole "Chill and be patient till the snow it is melted" part which I can't particularly find in the lyrics.

I was thinking she could be using the word chill in the same way we use the word lie. As in lie down


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: Taconicus
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 02:58 PM

I don't know. Perhaps, as suggested above regarding birdini, it's the Celtic word Éan with an Italian (or other language) dimunative ending thrown on.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: Taconicus
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 03:05 PM

...so what on earth is she singing instead?
As I (twice) mentioned above, she's singing "Oh children, be patient till the snow it is melted."


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 03:06 PM

She also does not sing the first chorus, so I think that threw me off a bit. Most of the lyrics are there, they're just in a different order and there's a few lines added in there.

I'm very curious about the origins of this song, if it has Italian words mixed in there, I wonder where it originally came from. Just typing it in google, nothing appears to show up, how did you find the lyrics Maeve? How did you start off your search?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: GUEST,Rochelle
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 03:13 PM

Taconicus-I guess I missed your post about that, sorry.

That makes sense now though, thanks.

I wish I could find some type of record about this song, how old it is, and when it was first collected.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: maeve
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 03:16 PM

Here's an interesting tidbit: "Irish Traditional Music" by Sean Williams (Top of the page.) There's a reference to an LP from Sam Hinton, and a song called "The Eagle's Lullaby". I wonder what I can find about that?

As for my initial search, I think I searched for the word that most mystified me, "birdini".


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: maeve
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 03:19 PM

Ha! Have a listen here:


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: maeve
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 03:26 PM

"...the beautiful "The Eagle's Lullaby" (which began life as an Irish marching song done on bagpipes, then became a popular fiddle reel, and finally a bedtime lullaby)" found here: http://www.pandora.com/music/album/sam+hinton+childrens/whoever+shall+have+some+good+peanuts


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 03:31 PM

Good job, that is the exact same song. Funny how they thought it was a Native American folk song, one could make that mistake oddly enough.

I can't seem to find many recordings of these, I found another instrumental version by Bob Gallo on a synthesizer-not very exciting.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: maeve
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 03:54 PM

Here is information on one Trá Mhór: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramore


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: maeve
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 04:59 PM

Also known as "The Eagle's Whistle", heard here on: The Highland Session, "The Eagle's Whistle" or "Fead na h-iolaire".
I love this tune.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: GUEST,Rochelle
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 05:13 PM

Looks like both of the places named here are tourists towns, that's pretty interesting.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: maeve
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 05:24 PM

Yes Rochelle, if indeed the links are for the same towns referred to in the lyrics... I don't know.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: GUEST,Rochelle
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 05:38 PM

I can't imagine what else they could be, it would make sense to talk of popular and charming tourist towns to your children while they dream. My mother used to play a game with me and my brother when we were younger because we didn't have enough money to travel anywhere. At dinner she used to pretend we were on a flight somewhere and dinner would be the on flight meal. I kind of think of this idea as something similar. The children are visiting these seemingly magical and dream-like places as they go to sleep.

I don't think there are other places in Ireland that would be referred to, unless the song is so old the lyrics were written before the towns were created. I can't imagine this being possible.

Of course there's no documented evidence, but It at least seems like the most logical scenario. I found a version of the song on itunes by Carol Ashton, she's very clear and the names are correct.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: maeve
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 05:46 PM

The locations may well be those two Irish towns. However, there is also an Ardmore on the east coast of Scotland Google maps, Ardmore, Scotland. I've seen the tune credited to both Ireland and Scotland; not uncommon with tunes and songs in the region.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: maeve
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 05:54 PM

And, as I suspected, Scotland also has a town of Tramore/Tra Mhor
Google maps, again: Tramore, Scotland .

Someone here must know more about the origins of the lullaby versions. We haven't found anything to indicate an earlier set of lyrics. I'm not satisfied.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 06:03 PM

I have this melody in the book of 'Traditional Slow Airs of Ireland,' edited by Tomas O Canainn.

He calls it Gol na mBan san Ar.

It is true that the word 'children' makes more sense than 'chill' but that's only if you think the song is addressed to children. I think it's addressed to birds.

How could children go west to Ardmore and east to Tramhor when they go to sleep?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: maeve
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 06:27 PM

Thanks very much, leeneia. That title brings us to this Mudcat thread.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: GUEST,Rochelle
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 06:30 PM

Well it is a lullaby-in Aajfe's version, so it's sung to children. I always thought that the song was similar to the idea I named above, allowing your child to pretend they are going somewhere else in their imagination. Maybe the mother is trying to get her children to pretend they are birds traveling to far off lands in their dreams.

It was, supposedly originally intended as a marching song and so that would most definitely be the case if you were marching somewhere. (Although I don't know how far these lyrics date back)

Who in their right mind would sing songs directly to a bird?

Of course, again none of this is documented and I too would like to see another version collected of the song. Some type of date would be excellent. It could very well be a song about birds or sung to a little bird.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: maeve
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 06:35 PM

And I see that the approximate translation of that title is written as
Gol Na Mban 'San Ar (The Women's Lament In Battle) on a Seamus Ennis album, "The Bonny Bunch of Roses."
*******************
At this site,
http://www.irishgaelictranslator.com/translation/topic78783.html , someone says, ""Gol na mBan San Ár" the weeping of the women in the slaughter

Páirc an Áir is a battle field - literally : a field of slaughter / battle

http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/4192

Machaire an Áir also. That sessions archive is not entirely accurate "The Eagles Whistle" =The O Donoghue Clan March and not O Donovan.
****************************
So we have, perhaps, another title for the tune: "The O Donoghue Clan March".


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: maeve
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 06:41 PM

Rochelle, one of the interesting aspects of traditional and folk music that I love is that one often can't be specific regarding certain meaning or origin of a particular piece. So we who love a tune or song may research as thoroughly as possible (we're nowhere near thorough in this little effort so far) yet may never be able to say for sure what all of the origins and influences may be.

As a lullaby, it seems reasonable to say it was meant to be sung to a child or children, yet there are songs in which the "speaker" is addressing the words to a bird or other non-human. We are fortunate, being free to sing the lullaby or other song to whom we please.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: maeve
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 06:50 PM

Look here! From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alasdair_Mac_Colla (I have not checked the accuracy of this entry.)

Gol na mBan san Ár (English: Lament of the Women in the Massacre) was composed in memory of MacColla and his female followers. The song has been recorded under many names.

    * 1980 - The Chieftains - Boil the Breakfast Early
    * 1993 - Noel Hill, Tony MacMahon & Iarla Ó Lionáird - Aislingí Ceoil (Music Of Dreams)
    * 2008 - Julie Fowlis & Muireann Nic Amhlaoibh - Dual
*********
There is a link on that entry leading to:
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/4192

Gol Na MBan San Ar
waltz

Key signature: Dmajor

Submitted on February 2nd 2005 by fidkid.

This tune has been added to 50 tunebooks.

Also known as Arrane Ny Niee, The Crying Of The Women At The Slaughter, Eagle's Whistle, The Eagle's Whistle March, The Eagle's Whistle, Eagles Whistle, The O'Donovan Clan March.

Recordings of a tune by this name:

    * 40th Anniversary Album by Armagh Pipers Club
    * Boil The Breakfast Early by The Chieftains
    * Celtic Celebration by Dirk Freymuth
    * Dual by Dual
    * Far From Home by Boys Of The Lough
    * Jiggin' The Blues by Frankie Gavin, Rick Epping And Tim Edey
    * Little Woolly, Lullabyes by Kelly Hood
    * Live by Blazin' Fiddles
    * Magnificent Seven by Blazin' Fiddles
    * Music Of Dreams by Noel Hill And Tony MacMahon With Iarla O Lionaird
    * Open Road by Boys Of The Lough
    * Paddy On The Railway by Ten Penny Bit
    * Pipes, Rods 'n' Reels by Ray Sloan
    * Shatter The Calm by Dan Beimborn
    * The Best Of Joe And Antoinette Mckenna by Joe And Antoinette McKenna
    * The Eagle's Whistle by Michael Tubridy
    * The First Measure by Pipedown
    * The Little Country by Charles De Lint
    * The Music Makers: Celebrating 35 Years Of Comhaltas In Leeds by Leeds CCE
    * Traditional Music Of Ireland by Joe And Antoinette McKenna
    * Uilleann Pipes by Pat Mitchell
    * We'll Seek No More Engagements by Aidan Crossey
********
So we may have found the composer; we have no good source for any of the sets of lyrics yet.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: maeve
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 06:53 PM

A correction: I meant to say that we may have an explanation of the subject of the tune...(Not a composer).

Time for a break, methinks.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Go to Sleep folk song
From: maeve
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 10:12 AM

Further mention of possible subject matter that may have inspired the tune can be found here: http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.music.celtic/2006-02/msg00026.html
"... some think it refers to the Battle of Aughrim in 1691... Breathnach (1997) says the piece relates to the victory of Lord Inchequin at Knockinnoss, County Cork, in 1647... The last of the old Kerry pipers, Michael O'Sullivan ... maintained it was about the battle of Cnoc an Áir, in which Fionn Mac Umhaill defeated Meargach and his hosts with great slaughter. A piping piece, it programmatically simulates the march of the troops to battle, the struggle itself, and the women lamenting the slain in the aftermath. It appears in the appendix to Walker's Historical Memoirs of the Irish Bards (1786) and Thompson's Hibernian Muse (1786), although in the latter collection in appears under the title "An Irish Dump" (dump meaning here a lament or sad tune)."
********************************************************
I no longer have the more scholarly texts from which I might have drawn less supposition and more verifiable information. I wonder if Roxanne requested a title change (using a couple of the known titles, perhaps)for the thread, those with more accurate information might take notice.


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