best thing a man can do for his children

Subject: best thing a man can do for his children
From: JedMarum
Date: 04 Sep 99 - 12:32 AM

Sitting here reading the 'thoughts for the day' posts, and reflecting.

As my boys grow up and leave home, each paired with their beautiful young woman, I have one thought that rises to the surface. I tell them, remember;

the best thing a man can do for his children is to love their mother

They have been fine sons, and now that they are nearly gone ... I have their mother all to myself! One day I'll write this into a song, or has someone beaten me to it?

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: Alice
Date: 04 Sep 99 - 12:45 AM

Thank, you, Liam. I wish there had been in my life a man who shared that thought of yours.

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Sep 99 - 01:04 AM

I couldn't agree with you more Liam.

Spaw

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: Escamillo
Date: 04 Sep 99 - 05:31 AM

I think I could simply agree with Liam, but I also feel that I should express how deeply this simple statement reached to me. Thank you, Liam for calling this to our attention.

(and thank you, Graciela, for 27 years - we are so lucky) Andres Magre - [e-mail]

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: Tony Burns
Date: 04 Sep 99 - 09:55 AM

Wonderful sentiment for a song. Please let us know when it is ready.

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Sep 99 - 11:34 AM

Liam,

You have left me speechless. No mean feat. You captured more in one sentence than most of could in a book. And in that one sentence you have told us that you need not fear for your boys. Raised by someone of your depth, they will be fine.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: Margo
Date: 04 Sep 99 - 12:31 PM

Damned dyslexia. I read, "Or has someone beaten it into me?" Gads. Changes the meaning, doesn't it? I agree. Marriage requires many kinds of love, among them patient, long suffering love. I think my husband must have that. I wonder sometimes how he puts up with me. I am emotional, and wear my heart on my sleeve. He's stoic and pragmatic. I guess that's why we're a good match! Viva la difference!

Margarita, who got real lucky to marry Jack

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: Art Thieme
Date: 04 Sep 99 - 09:13 PM

Aye, Liam---so true. To be able to shift gears and be there when they need you and your input--or just your ear to hear them and their problems---even when you don't feel like doing that. That's what being a man should be all about.

Art

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From:
Date: 04 Sep 99 - 10:21 PM

They're lovely sentiments yes, and the memories of nuturing children in such a heart-warmed environment must indeed be magic... But do you think it exclusively fits the needs of most children? Sadly (at one end of the spectrum) "love" for their wife is often professed by violent or abusive partners too - a child needs something more. Separated parents are a norm in NZ - whilst that doesn't have to mean the absence of a Dad in their children's lives, unfortunately it can be a reality. I think though, that the concept of "absence" can be interesting - parents can be so locked into their own lives even when living together in (loving) relationships that they become absent to the child. I've seen some excellent live-apart parenting, where the parents no longer love eachother, but respect what eachother has to offer their children and also their children's rights to access that. Maybe mutual respect between parents and unconditional love for children matters even more. Is the NZ experience the same for others ?

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: ana
Date: 04 Sep 99 - 10:30 PM

Oops - sorry - the above posting's from me. My cookie must be munched! Ana

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Sep 99 - 12:47 AM

Ana, I am glad you posted that. I didn't want to make any of the guys feel badly and I do believe the original statement is true, but I don't believe, from experience, that it is as simple as that.

A person can love someone until it hurts and still not be able to be around them, live with them, or raise children with them. Remeber that 60's/70's song, "I love you too much to ever start liking you, And that's the way the story goes"?

I would like to add that sometimes the best thing any parent can do for their children is love them enough to know that parents, living apart, can be the best thing for all concerned.

You guys on here are, I believe, the exception and I believe that because of your connection with music and the way you allow it to shape your souls, spirits, and hearts. You are not afraid to express your feelings, to wear your hearts on your sleeve and admit to having a good cry. Your honesty is rare. And, I know there aren't enough of you to round!*BG*

So start recruiting more men and young men and boys to folk music and teach them all you know, pass that honesty, love, and openness of emotions on, as I am sure Liam, and the rest of you who have sons, have done. (And, of course, that goes for daughters, too!)

Katwhohasbeenthere

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: Alice
Date: 05 Sep 99 - 11:32 AM

This thread has the potential to turn into a 'what is love' discussion. From my point of view, what I thought was love when I was younger was not love. What many people describe in song lyrics is not love. Authentic love is healthy, doesn't hurt the way desire can, and it nurtures intact families. All chidren want their parents to love them and each other and to stay together. Those of us like my son and myself can survive, but it is not the 'best thing'. Love and desire get confused in people's minds because our culture has twisted the meaning of the word 'love' in so many ways.

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Sep 99 - 12:13 PM

I've been thinking about this thread and wondering if I should open my mouth, seeing as I don't have kids. Naturally, I decided not to keep quiet.

Love itself is not an intentional thing. It's like saying "the best thing you can do for your soul is believe in God." Unless you're very good at convincing yourself what you believe is truth is not truth, or what you feel about someone is not what you feel, you can't do these things on purpose. I do think kids who grow up in a family where the parents love each other and their children (I was in such a family) are very lucky.

I think the anonymous poster who mentioned respect had it right. Of course, respect is built in to many folks' definition of love. I've seen too many people who started out loving each other begin to take each other for granted, and stop saying things like 'please,' 'thank you,' and 'I love you.' Sometimes people treat strangers with more courtesy than their spouses or kids. If kids learn respect from parents who love them (no matter what they feel for each other) they'll learn it. They'll learn how to argue without being mean, they'll learn that everyone's opinion counts no matter who agrees or doesn't, and maybe they'll learn not to hit someone or worse when they get mad.

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: Melodeon
Date: 05 Sep 99 - 03:06 PM

Yes, the best thing that any parent can do for their child is to love and respect their other parent, but our children have always known that they were planned,wanted and conceived in love,and because of a lot of give and take and to some extent luck we are still together and still in love after 22 years. but surely where this is impossible for whatever reason, it is better for a child to have two happy but separated parents than two very unhappy parents(so long as they both remain in the child's life)What do the children of divorced parents think?

Melodeon

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: JedMarum
Date: 05 Sep 99 - 03:45 PM

my original comment here was simply, me counting my blessings ... I guess I was realizing the most important thing I ever did to be a good father was to work at being the best husband I could be ... and that effort was its own reward.

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Sep 99 - 06:01 PM

Then I guess I'll quit analyzing and nitpicking, and just say congratulations. You've made your own happiness and shared it with others. Liam, others may have written a song, but no one can write your song but you.

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: WyoWoman
Date: 06 Sep 99 - 12:11 PM

Being the child of two parents whose love story lasted until my father's death at 78, I can say that one of my greatest blessings was the fact that my father simply adored my mother, and vice versa. It had its downside, of course, because sometimes it felt as if we (my sisters and me) were outside that circle. We were. But that's as it should be -- we moved on and they still had each other. But to grow up in a home in which each of the parents shows each other the tenderest consideration -- what an incredible foundation.

Unfortunately, the great sorrow in my life is that I haven't been able to duplicate that. I always assumed that that was what marriage was and was shocked speechless when I discovered that not all men treat the women they "love" in that almost courtly way. Not that I want to be waited on hand and foot, but ... really profound partnership? Yes. Maybe their example spoiled me forever, but I have tried and simply can't stay married to someone who treats me disrespectfully or takes me for granted. Decided it was better to go it alone than to settle for that. BUT ... I did raise my children with that kind of consideration and tenderness and now that they're adults, the fruits of my love are readily apparent.

WW

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: SandyBob
Date: 06 Sep 99 - 01:24 PM

I'm happy for you Liam. Mileage does vary though. I think the most important thing a man can do for his children is to keep his heart open and available for them. If that happens through courtly love of their mother that is great. This isn't much of an era for courtly love though. There doesn't seem to be enough appreciation to go around. But it is still the most important thing for a man's soul and his children -- keeping an open heart, I mean.

Sandy Bob

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: Peter T.
Date: 06 Sep 99 - 01:35 PM

I am constantly stunned by this place. Constantly. From now on, if someone asks me why I spend so much time here, I will show them this thread.
All the tough questions, kaboom: What are fathers for? Can you will love? Is there a love that can be shown even when two people hate each other? Are children better off with violent parents who love them, or not? Unhappy but together/Happy but apart -- which is best for all? The great sorrow of life, not finding the partner your soul believes is out there....and the long joy of those who did. "The best thing you can do for your soul is believe in God". Boom -- 4000 years of religious struggle in one phrase.
I have not printed out a thread since 1997, but this one is just too full and too hard not to be considered slowly. What a bunch.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: Ana
Date: 07 Sep 99 - 04:23 AM

Thanks for this poignant thread Liam; The whole area of children's rights to have healthy relationship with 2 parents is something I'm passionate about. (I purposely say "healthy" because there are some instances when this is sadly not possible). The denial of contact with a perfectly good parent was an aspect of my childhood - the experience is part of my resource; I choose now to work in an area where the needs and rights of children have paramountcy. There are so many children who miss out on the active love of both a father and mother - it can be an unrestorable loss to grieve for throughout a life. Unlike the loss of a parent through death, it can also be hidden. Children's feelings often receive little acknowledgment when parents separate. So, any of you guys out there not investing your chidren with love and fun? I hope this thread can influence you - what you have to offer to your children is both huge and important; the simple act of showing love, teaches a child that they are valued. Arohanui Ana

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 07 Sep 99 - 05:08 AM

If love means never having to say you're sorry, it also seems to mean never having to say 'please' or 'thank you' either! Try and remember not to take each other for granted - you can't remember all the time, but you can try and do it more often.

I've just had a week away with my wife Sue without the kids for the first time in years. I recommend it!

Steve

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: GeorgeH
Date: 07 Sep 99 - 05:21 AM

Ana and Kat . . sorry, but you're wrong and the original statement is generally correct! All the "ifs and buts" you bring up - while perfectly valid - amount to a failure to meet that first statement. And - I reckon - anyone who can manage to love, and go on loving their partner (a process which requires working on from both sides) is also most unlikely not to share that loving outlook and attitude in all they do! Let's leave that aspiration as a "candle on a dark night".

Of course there are exceptions to any generalisation . . including this one! As for "what is love" - the only "definition" that's ever made sense to me (partly because it encompases the different shades of love, including sexual and platonic) is "seeking to put another person's needs and feelings before your own" - the problem with which coming when one party adopts that philosophy and another party seeks to milk it for all they can.

Thanks to all those who've shared their feelings, and belief in the possibility of "getting it right".

G.

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: Cara
Date: 07 Sep 99 - 09:34 AM

I want to get it right, and I love GeorgeH's definition and Liam's original statement too. But as the child of sometimes not-so-amicably divorced parents, I've seen how it goes when the "thin line" is breached. But even though they didn't always manage, my parents tried to respect each other and they always loved myself and my sister. I thank my mother especially for showing us that love for yourself is paramount, and if you have that you can weather nearly anything. I see now that I'm stronger as a product of a divorce than I would have been had my parents stayed together.

but all that aside, I'm looking for a man who subscribes to liam's idea to father my children (well, I'm not taking out ads or anything, but you catch my drift).

Great thread! Beautiful sentiment, liam.

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: JedMarum
Date: 07 Sep 99 - 09:58 AM

Nice thoughts expressed in this thread ... many nuances on the original theme ... I must admit I was not considering the times a father cannot love the mother of his children, for various reasons ... but for me, this does not change the value of the lesson. The goal I set for my sons when I give them this advice is for them to give their love to the mother of their children, the best way they can ... it is a goal, an objective; I offer no qualifications. Of course there are many other ways a man shows love for his children; this one, for me, is the ldeal.

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: Rosebrook
Date: 07 Sep 99 - 10:20 AM

Good point, Steve! My experience has shown me that love means you constantly have to say you're sorry! Living with another person takes work even if there is shared love, trust and admiration. Although neither my partner or I ever intend to hurt each other, there are times when I inadvertantly hurt her feelings by letting something insensitive fall out of my mouth without thinking first. I get lots of practice saying "I'm sorry" because I do love.

To say that the best thing a person can do for their children is to demonstrate a long-lived, consistent loving relationship for the child's other parent rings so true for me. I think this example being set helps prepare them for their own future adult relationships. I think about my sister who is very, very close with her daughter to the point of excluding her own husband in the household. This, to me, is doing the child a disservice in so many ways. How will her daughter be ready to establish intimacy when she has never seen it, when just the opposite is presented to her as the norm?

Children learn what they live. I hope my children will learn from my example of dedication, respect and commitment to their other mother.

Rose

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 07 Sep 99 - 12:29 PM

Another thought: we should leave off definig 'love' until after we've decided what is 'folk'!

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Sep 99 - 01:34 PM

Earlier I said, I do believe the original statement is true, so I was not picking on Liam or his experience.

I don't think it is fair to define what is love, for others as I think it can be and mean different things for each person.

I think there are lot of gray areas, thus I also said I don't think it is that simple. Anyway, Steve is probably right:-), we could debate folk and love for many, many threads!

Rose, you are right about your niece, but it will also be sad for your sister as she won't have that friendship of intimacy with her partner once her daughter moves out. This happens frequently. One parent is engaged full time with the kids, and when they are all gone, they and their partner are strangers to one another, trying to pick up where they left off before children. Good for you and your partner for recognising this.

Ana, Arohanui is Hawaiian? What does it mean? It is a beautiful word.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: Bert
Date: 07 Sep 99 - 02:04 PM

Liam,

I tried that with my first wife. I beleived it and I kept trying for far too long. It didn't work and I'm sure it didn't do my daughter much good, living in an atmosphere of constant bitching.

I still beleive it though, and I hope that my acquired kids have benefitted from the love that I'm showing their mother.

Bert.

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: JedMarum
Date: 07 Sep 99 - 02:29 PM

Bert - I think you are right on with the sentiment, and I wish you the best in the 'acquired' situation. I think the same lesson applies.

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: Alice
Date: 07 Sep 99 - 08:16 PM

My earlier statement was tongue in cheek regarding a 'what is love' thread. In no way did I mean that we should start that.

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Sep 99 - 08:28 PM

Aw damn....and there I was typing away on the first post. You're really a downer Alice. I had this long thing about love being the feeling a Canadian environmentalist gets when he dresses a heron to look like Waylon Jennings........Geez, it was really beautiful too, very touching. Cleigh just loved it, but now, well.................

Spaw

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: Alice
Date: 07 Sep 99 - 09:19 PM

Spaw, did that "long thing" include tree hugging?

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: WyoWoman
Date: 07 Sep 99 - 09:56 PM

Isn't that "long thing" posting a Mudcat Tavern thread redux?

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From:
Date: 07 Sep 99 - 10:05 PM

hmmmmmm.......

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: WyoWoman
Date: 07 Sep 99 - 10:15 PM

Sorry. I didn't mean to bring the level of this discourse down to that level. For that, we have CATSPAW!!!!!

@B-}

ww

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Sep 99 - 12:44 AM

Wait a minute here fer chrissakes.........Alice made the remark, not I...........I simply said that I had wasted my time and was basically honoring her request.....ME?? ALLOW THREAD CREEP??? Gimmee a break.......

And BTW, I like to believe that another good thing to do for your kids is to show them all the honest emotions of our species and not hide any of them...anger,joy,sadness,laughter...all parts of the human condition.......If they see that all the time and that it's OK to show them.....maybe I save them some therapy bills later.

And make sure they develop a big sense of humor...they're going to need it.

Spaw

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Sep 99 - 12:49 AM

ABOSEFFINGLUTELY, 'SPAW!!!

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: Ana
Date: 08 Sep 99 - 02:42 AM

Hi Kat - you asked for the meaning and origin of the word "arohanui". It is a New Zealand Maori term.

Aroha means Love, and nui - big. The latter is not so much in size but importance. It is a word imbued with spirituality.

Arohanui could then be a gift to be given - warm and enveloping as in te korowai aroha -the cloak of love. Ana

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: Bert
Date: 08 Sep 99 - 09:47 AM

Catspaw, Of course Mudcat kids have to survive on honest emoticons <^O~

Bert.

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Sep 99 - 11:04 AM

Ana, thank you, thank you. What a beautiful language! I shall add that phrase to my collection of favourites.

kat

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Sep 99 - 12:36 PM

Congratulations Bert, you've reached a new low.

Spaw

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Sep 99 - 01:40 PM

Ahem....bringing this back to a level above the arse:-)

I just received this by email. You know I am not Christian nor much the religious type, but this seems appropriate for this thread and has what I consider to be a lot of Truth in it. Here ya go:

Interview with God > I dreamed I had an interview with God. "Come in," God said. "So, you would like to interview Me?"

"If you have the time," I said. God smiled and said:

"My time is eternity and is enough to do everything; what questions do you have in mind to ask me?"

"What surprises you most about mankind?" God answered: "That they get bored of being children, are in a rush to grow up, and then long to be children again.

That they lose their health to make money and then lose their money to restore their health.

Tat by thinking anxiously about the future, they forget the present, such that they live neither for the present nor the future.

That they live as if they will never die, and they die as if they had never lived..."

God's hands took mine and we were silent for while and then I asked, "As a parent, what are some of life's lessons you want your children to learn?"

God replied with a smile: "To learn that they cannot make anyone love them. What they can do is to let themselves be loved.

To learn that what is most valuable is not what they have in their lives, but who they have in their lives.

To learn that it is not good to compare themselves to others. All will be judged individually on their own merits, not as a group on a comparison basis!

To learn that a rich person is not the one who has the most, but is one who needs the least.

To learn that it only takes a few seconds to open profound wounds in persons we love, and that it takes many years to heal them.

To learn to forgive by practicing forgiveness.

To learn that there are persons that love them dearly, but simply do not know how to express or show their feelings.

To learn that money can buy everything but happiness.

To learn that two people can look at the same thing and see it totally different.

To learn that a true friend in someone who knows everything about them...and likes them anyway.

To learn that it is not always enough that they be forgiven by others, but that they have to forgive themselves."

I sat there for awhile enjoying the moment. I thanked Him for his time and for all that He has done for me and my family, and He replied, "Anytime. I'm here 24 hours a day. All you have to do is ask for me, and I'll answer."

People will forget what you said.
People will forget what you did, but
People will never forget how you made them feel.
> > >

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: Mudjack
Date: 08 Sep 99 - 04:33 PM

When LOVE is expressed, the children must sense this emotional bonding. Broken hearts never mend, they might smooth over the rough times, but the brain remembers the pain inflicted and the heart feels rejection to feeling the peaceful tranquility of LOVE.
Children have a tough time understanding the true meaning of love, but by example of Liam's, "love their mother" is a sure move in the right direction.We all must give love to recieve love and the human spirit is mean without it.
Nice thoughts and thanks Kat, for God's interview.You folks are getting me all choked up and teary eyed.
Mudjack

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: GeorgeH
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 06:37 AM

I enjoyed the God interview . . but one small question . . Is it the case that children "get bored of being children", rather than that society projects an expectation that this should be so, and that they should rush onwards to adult "sophistication"??

It has been a great blessing to us that our daughter and the group of friends of which she is apart have, to an extent, stood aside from the social expectations and have not felt that need to shed childhood. (She's 18 now, clearly not a child, but I certainly couldn't say when she passed from child to adult). IMO we're far too ready to blame children for failings we set up for them; it's nice to see God falling into the same trap.

And to get onto topic - as a musical bridge from God's interview back to the Mudcat I'd like to nominate Si Kahn's "What you do with what you've got" - preferably sung by Roy Bailey with a chorus of assembled mudcatters!

G.

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 10:19 AM

I was somewhat put off by Liam's original phrase, not because I felt it was wrong, but because I knew I fell short of that beautiful thought. Then when GeorgeH chimed in I flashed a bit with anger, but again it was anger at myself for falling short of the ideal.

Something God didn't mention in His interview was that we all fall short in different areas at different times. It is the defining part of our humanity.

I spent 11 years with my ex-wife. Certainly the last year or two was "for the children." I finally realized that I had been blind to an aspect of my ex-wife's personality when I fell in love with her and that our conflicts were irresolveable. We both tried in our own ways (together and apart) to make our marriage work. I finally decided that it was better for the children not to be exposed to the constant disagreements.

I cannot say it was easy for me or my children. One commitment that I made to myself and kept was that I would do what was in my power to ensure that my children had two parents. This required many compromises.

I feel I have been honest with my sons about the whys and wherefores of their parents' divorce, as I see them, including the areas where I fell short.

For children to have what Liam has offered his children is a true blessing which they will surely come to deeply cherish.

Both of my childrens' parents have established new loving relationships that look to have more permanancy that the initial marriage.

So, I will stand with Liam on his statement, but I will not feel hypocritical having not provided that for my children. But I will also keep myself aware that the world is not an ideal place and I am part of the world.

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 10:48 AM

Beuatiful Rog....and you're right on all counts. I look forward more than ever to meeting you in DC.

And I know it's certainly not true for everyone, but in my case, both I and my kids are fortunate that Karen and I met later in life. I'm not sure how fate handles these things, but I knew that for whatever reason, Karen was the woman I'd never met, but was waiting for all those years. James Dickey described it best about his lead character in "Deliverance" when he said that "within her he saw a certain spark; a flame, small but steady. And when he found it he married it." That's what I saw in Karen.......and what my life was missing. I too married it immediately and all the best of my life, our marriage and our family, was kindled by that flame.

Spaw

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: Bert
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 05:33 PM

I know exactly what you mean by "that flame" 'Spaw.

Here's how it happened for me.

Bert.

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 07:12 PM

Nice lyric Bert...really nice........I'll be anxious to hear the tune.

Spaw

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 08:24 PM

Sheesh! You guys are wonderful and SO romantic! I had to get the "real one" for me, the third time around, and he just had to be wool-gathering engineer; head is always in the clouds, wouldn't know how to write a song, much less a poem. However, if ya ask him what attracted him to me right off, (besides the looks) he says it was all the books I have and I love him for that.

He has been very romantic at times, so I guess his head isn't always in the clouds.*BG*

kat

Subject: RE: best thing a man can do for his children
From: Escamillo
Date: 10 Sep 99 - 03:02 AM

Kat, I bet your Roger is a real gentleman. When Graciela, my wife, asked me what attracted me to her right off, I answered "Well, eer.. once you were going up the stairs (in the building we both worked) and I casually went up the same stairs just behind you.. then .. you know".
This surely wouldn't upset her, because she asked me the same, many times, just to hear my answer. Humor is as important as respect, consideration, etc. :)

Andrés Magré (the daring torero)