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Dominic Behan again.

DigiTrad:
AVONDALE
LIVERPOOL LOU
McALPINE'S FUSILIERS
OFF TO DUBLIN IN THE GREEN
OPEN THE DOOR SOFTLY
OULD TRIANGLE
PATRIOT GAME
THE SEA AROUND US


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GUEST,Tim Marks 17 Jan 11 - 11:20 AM
MGM·Lion 17 Jan 11 - 11:36 AM
GUEST,Martin Dardis 17 Jan 11 - 12:13 PM
Jim McLean 17 Jan 11 - 12:20 PM
GUEST,Tim Marks 17 Jan 11 - 12:22 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 17 Jan 11 - 01:59 PM
GUEST 17 Jan 11 - 05:04 PM
JohnB 17 Jan 11 - 06:28 PM
GUEST,Tim Marks 17 Jan 11 - 07:12 PM
Dave Hanson 18 Jan 11 - 04:01 AM
GUEST,Tim Marks 18 Jan 11 - 06:17 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Jan 11 - 06:19 AM
Dave Hanson 18 Jan 11 - 08:05 AM
GUEST 18 Jan 11 - 08:34 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Jan 11 - 08:41 AM
Jim McLean 18 Jan 11 - 09:08 AM
GUEST,Desi C 18 Jan 11 - 09:46 AM
GUEST,Tim Marks 18 Jan 11 - 09:52 AM
Jim McLean 18 Jan 11 - 10:28 AM
GUEST,Tim Marks 18 Jan 11 - 11:37 AM
Jim McLean 18 Jan 11 - 12:08 PM
GUEST 18 Jan 11 - 02:26 PM
GUEST 18 Jan 11 - 02:48 PM
Jim McLean 18 Jan 11 - 03:17 PM
Jim McLean 18 Jan 11 - 03:22 PM
GUEST 18 Jan 11 - 04:30 PM
Jim McLean 18 Jan 11 - 05:18 PM
zozimus 18 Jan 11 - 05:32 PM
Jim McLean 19 Jan 11 - 05:15 AM
GUEST,Tim Marks 19 Jan 11 - 06:31 AM
Jim McLean 19 Jan 11 - 06:42 AM
GUEST,Mariner 20 Jan 11 - 02:17 AM
MartinRyan 20 Jan 11 - 04:18 AM
MARINER 20 Jan 11 - 05:56 AM
theballadeer 20 Jan 11 - 03:28 PM
zozimus 20 Jan 11 - 04:05 PM
Jim McLean 28 Jan 11 - 08:09 AM
Tim Marks 08 Feb 11 - 10:35 PM
GUEST,Tim McShane 02 Dec 11 - 02:37 PM
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Subject: Dominic Behan again.
From: GUEST,Tim Marks
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 11:20 AM

Hi, I'm putting the finishing touches on a play with the music of Dominic Behan as the throughline ( my bona fides www.spivsplays.com) I need a rollicking rebel song composed or claimed by Dominic, for a scene. Any help would be much appreciated. Tim Marks


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 11:36 AM

The Patriot Game,("My name is O'Hanlon") to a tune Dominic originally claimed as original, but admitted to me late-ish in his life was derived from one of the settings of To Hear The Nightingales Sing, & was subsequently used by Dylan for With God On Our Side, is a very fine song, I think.

Doesn't seem to be on DT, but several versions on youtube.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: GUEST,Martin Dardis
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 12:13 PM

Take It Down From The Mast is one of the most contentious of all rebel songs and was written by Dominic, The Dubliners do a great version


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: Jim McLean
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 12:20 PM

"Connolly was There" which he sings with great gusto on the Unity Creates Strength LP I produced in 1972.


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: GUEST,Tim Marks
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 12:22 PM

Thanks . As far as The Patriot Game I want to use it as the emotional finish of the play, but I intend to use the contentious verses left out by the Clancy's that pissed DB off so much.


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 01:59 PM

I didn't know "Take it Down from the Mast" was by DB, but it would certainly be more "rollicking" than "The Patriot Game". Depending on the viewpoint or narrative of the play, do bear in mind that the opening lines place the sympathies firmly in one camp, at the time of the Civil War:

"Take it down from the Mast, Irish Traitors;
It's the flag we Republicans claim-
It can never belong to Free-Staters,
Ye brought on it nothing but shame."

Isn't the air like "The Red River Valley" with a faster tempo?


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 05:04 PM

You might consider "Come Out Ye Black an' Tans"," Rifles of the IRA," The Merry Ploughboy(Off to Dublin in the Green)," Me Bould Sinn Feiner" or "The Boys of the County Cork". You will find most of these recorded by the Wolfe Tones besides Dominic himself.
Where are you putting on the play and when?


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: JohnB
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 06:28 PM

How about "The Auld Triangle"
JohnB


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: GUEST,Tim Marks
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 07:12 PM

I've already used Come out you black and tans, merry ploughboy and the Auld Triangle as well as Carrickfergus, MC Alpine and Crooked Jack and Liverpool Lou and am considering Arkle The play is still indevelopment, but if you like I will post 2nd draft online. Tim


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 04:01 AM

The Ould Triangle was written by Brendan not Dominic.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: GUEST,Tim Marks
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 06:17 AM

From the resarch I've done The Auld triangle was written by Dominic for Brendan for the play THE QUARE FELLER.


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 06:19 AM

So I several times heard Dominic assert.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 08:05 AM

Not according to Brendan.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 08:34 AM

If the play is all about Dominic Behan's songs as the inclusion of Arkle suggests, you should include "Avondale", which Dominic recorded under the title "Parnell", and "Building Up and Tearing London Down", which many think was his finest song.


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 08:41 AM

Indeed, Dave ~~ it was a noted source of rivalry and controversy between them: and I shouldn't describe either of them as the most entirely trustworthy of informants. Don't expect the truth will ever be established now.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: Jim McLean
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 09:08 AM

I was a friend and co-writer with Dominic and he certainly did not write The Old Triangle. The sleeve notes to his Topic EP (TOP 85)were written by Enoch Kent in conjunction with Dominic and says " ....The song originated in Mountjoy Prison ...". I know Dominic wrote verses and amended many traditional songs but the credit for the Old Triangle goes to an inmate of Mountjoy Prison which never afforded accomodation for Dominic although Brendan did a spell there.


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 09:46 AM

I agree with The Patriot Game, or if you're looking for a more pacy number The Merry Ploughboy, both fine rebel songs


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: GUEST,Tim Marks
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 09:52 AM

The sleeve notes from Peelers and Prisoners do indeed say the song originated in Mountjoy, but the composer is credited as Behan, which does no more to clear it up.


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: Jim McLean
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 10:28 AM

I'm sorry, Tim, but there are no writers' credits for the EP Peelers and Prisoners. I have it in front of me and if the song did originate in Mountjoy then it was certainly not Dominic Behan. I personally doubt if even Brendan wrote it as most songs mentioned in the literary works of both Brendan and Dominic are a mixture of fragments added to fragments of traditional (i.e. no given author) material. Prime examples are The Sea Around Us and Come Join the British Army. I can only repeat that I was a confidant of Dominic for over 35 years and am still closely in touch with his wife and sons. I also had a publishing company with him. Wikipedia, by the way, is not a reliable source of information regarding the Old Triangle.


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: GUEST,Tim Marks
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 11:37 AM

Jim, I believe you, here's the site I got the sleeve off http://www.45cat.com/record/top85 , It's a screen grab and there is a section for composer which has probably been added well after the fact. In honesty with regards to the song I'd be better served actually crediting the contention rather than the author as I saw another version of it which had a bunch more verses and was credited to someone else. The point of the play is to show Dominic's claimed work alongside 30 years of the Troubles, this includes rebel songs, but there are also ballads, and humourous songs as well. The point being that he and his family made an extraordinary contribution to Ireland. On the sleeve it says something like " You don't need to have all your teeth out to be a Dental Surgeon". Working off that perhaps you know whether Dominic ever actually worked on the Lump or whether Mcalpine's Fusiliers and Crooked Jack were just observations of others. I do appreciate you keeping the thread alive and am grateful for any insights . Tim


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: Jim McLean
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 12:08 PM

Hi Tim, you are correct in saying that the Behan family contributed a great deal to irish literature. I would acredit McAlpine's Fusileers to Dominic but he never worked on 'the Lump'. Crookit jack is copyrighted (words only, tune adapted) by Wolf Stephens which is a pseudonym used by Dominic. Dominic wrote regarding the song, "Eamonn Sullivan, a good Republican Socialist, worked on the Hydro' Electric scheme in Inveraray, Scotland. He described the conditions under which the men worked as appalling".
Good luck for the play.


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 02:26 PM

It is mentioned in a biography on Brendan ,I can't remember which one, that after the first night of his play, "The Quare Fellow", he insisted on paying royalties to the composer of the Aul Trangle, I think the name was Shanahan. It is not clear whether he actually paid for the rights to the song or whether himself or Dominic added additional verses. If you are mentioning the death of "Rosie", Dominic's father in the play, you should include "The Sodding", which Dominic wrote as a tribute to his Da


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 02:48 PM

The play is not the Behan family story, it's about a group of Irish musicians and theire travels from Early 70s Dublin to Mid 2000 in NYC. Dominics music will be used to allow the band to perform on stage realistically.


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: Jim McLean
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 03:17 PM

If Dominic wrote The Sodding as a tribute to his Da, why did he use the pseodonym Fintan Connolly as the writer/composer? (Ireland Sings, Essex Music 1965). The song is a description of the hypocrisy at most funerals, possibly including Stephan Behan's.
" .. if you're thinkin' of dyin' then take my advice,
If you're thinkin' of dyin' in Dublin think twice ...."

It reminds me of the saying we had back home in Paisley " .. it's a terrible place to live in, but a great place to die in" meaning they talk well of the dead, but both statements point to the two faced nature of some people.


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: Jim McLean
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 03:22 PM

Typo read Stephen for Stephan .. sorry.


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 04:30 PM

Hi Jim,
It was mentioned somewhere,but it may be just conjecture, that "The Sodding" was inspired by the death of his father. However, and you know more about Dominic than most of us, why did he use pseodonyms at all? It is also claimed he used two fictious names to record some songs on an L/P called "Irish Rebel Songs" with Enoch Kent, and indeed, having accessed the L/P, it does sound like him. Can you confirm if it was him?


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: Jim McLean
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 05:18 PM

Hi Guest, I don't have the LP you mention but I do remember some talk about it. Dominic was under contract at various times to various companies and using fictitious names was a way around that. While I was checking on my LPs of Dominic I came across one he made for Major Minor which had the Old Triangle. The credits read Arranged D. Behan, proof that he didn't write it. In those days (and now even) if a title was traditional, no money was paid to the writer obviously and the record company normally never paid out. The singer, by claiming the song was Trad. Arr. by him/her then received a royalty.
If you tell me the names of the "unknown" singer it could be a clue as to the identity as I know all Dom's pseudonyms.


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: zozimus
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 05:32 PM

Hi Jim,
The two names on the"Irish Rebel Songs" that people believe to be Dominic are Diarmiud O' Neill and Patrick O' Malley. If you like to PM me your address, I'll gladly send you a copy on CD.


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: Jim McLean
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 05:15 AM

Thanks Zozimus, have done.


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: GUEST,Tim Marks
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 06:31 AM

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions, and esp Jim for clarifications. The play called DOSSHOUSE PROPHETS now has a complete second draft finished and I will post a link to let anyone who feels like it have a look. thanks again Tim Marks


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: Jim McLean
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 06:42 AM

Looking forward to it, Tim.


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: GUEST,Mariner
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 02:17 AM

My late father, born in 1900 ,sang a version of All of to Dublin in the Green, that he had learned during the Irish Civil War, way before Dominic was in songwriting mode.


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: MartinRyan
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 04:18 AM

Is it not a Peadar Kearney song, based on a pattern used for a number of British Army songs?

Regards


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: MARINER
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 05:56 AM

I was thinking along those lines too ,Martin. I seem to remember that he called it "Of to join the column in the morning".It was a long time ago and the ol' memory is not what it used to be !.An old friend of my father's and his brother was a man called Peter Daly,who subsequently went on to become Commandant of The International Brigade in the Spanish Civil War and died there, was nicknamed "Column". This was due to the story that when he and my Uncle were among a group picked up and held in Wexford Barracks he walked out of the barracks with visitors who had come to say goodbye to their sons before they were transferred to ,in their case Kilmainham, initially .The story goes that when Pater was picked up on Wexford Quays a few minutes later he was whistling "Of to join The Column". Hence the name.How true that story is I don't know but it seems to indicate that the song was around in the 1920s.


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: theballadeer
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 03:28 PM

I believe Jim McLean will back me up once he hears the album. To me, there is NO question that the other singer is Dominic Behan...

Irish Rebel Songs

Nick


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: zozimus
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 04:05 PM

Dominic learned "Off to Dublin in the Green" when he was a member of Na Fianna , the boy scouts of the IRA. They sang it as a marching song. He never claimed to have written it although he may have added a verse or two. Likewise some of the other songs mentioned above were noy written by him, but were recorded or associated with him.
Hi Nick, I must fix you up some time with info on Patrick Galvin's L/Ps as I promised ages ago. Keep up the good work


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: Jim McLean
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 08:09 AM

Zozimus, thanks for the CD and the only two singers on the album are Enoch kent (tracks 7 and 8) and Dominic who sings all the others.
I agree with you, Nick (theballadeer).


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: Tim Marks
Date: 08 Feb 11 - 10:35 PM

As promised here is a copy of DOSSHOUSE PROPHETS for copyright reasons the onluine version has no lyrics showing, but at production the copyrights will be honourd and royalties paid. Hope you enjoy the piece.
http://spivsplays.com/DosshouseProphets.pdf


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Subject: RE: Dominic Behan again.
From: GUEST,Tim McShane
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 02:37 PM

"Take It Down From The Mast" is not written by Dominic. On his own sleeve notes for his 1957 album "Songs of the IRA" he says;

"TAKE IT DOWN FROM THE MAST: This bitter song was very popular in Dublin after the signing of the treaty in 1921. The song's authorship is unknown; its tune is traditional."

    - Tim


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