Lyr Req: Altered folk songs

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Altered folk songs
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 02:28 PM

Yes, shame on you, Bill.

'altered by folklorists in accordance with their own/society's values'

There is a strong tradition/necessity in this going back centuries, at least to Bishop Percy's time if not further back. You could start with Percy's 'Reliques' as this seems to have been one of the most influential.

His motives like most of his followers were led by thinking he could improve on the material. (Literary people of his own time thought that his bowdlerisation was an improvement, and some do even today.)

Later bowdlers like Scott and his gang used the excuse that they couldn't publish fragments. Many of the collectors/poets/editors of Scott's era had wealthy patrons and the likes of Scott & co altered ballads to put their patrons' families/ancestors in a better light or localised them to the area where their patrons lived.

The collectors of the late 19th/early 20th century, as has already been stated had to alter songs to suit the fashions acceptable to their intended buyers.

Even as late as the 1960s Frank Purslow was filling out oral texts from broadsides and joining fragments together to make a whole song.

It's difficult to criticise any of this as needs must. If Frank hadn't cobbled together the southern version of The Tailor's Britches we wouldn't have such a superb popular song!

The big crime comes when they publish a song/ballad that they claim is verbatim from oral tradition and patently this is a lie.

If you want some of the best examples, compare Baring Gould's 'Songs of the West' with the manuscripts, or Ethel Kidson's 'English Peasant Songs' with the songs they're based on.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Altered folk songs
From: Brian Peters
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 02:04 PM

Nice broadside link, nutty.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Altered folk songs
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 12:57 PM

"Perhaps you'll come back without the curmudgeonly hat on... :)"

Ok.. with a fuller explanation, I'll relent... :>)

I'll think on it a bit...(had a cold all week, and mind is running slow)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Altered folk songs
From: CupOfTea
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 12:51 PM

Another area of "sanitation" that I've seen a fair bit of in recent years is taking the Christianity out of Gospel songs. This is in the US - no clue if the same is true in the UK & elsewhere.

There's a great repertoire of Gospel that gets sung in the Old Time Music/ Bluegrass/ Folk/ Blues continuum and in those groups you'll find a fair smattering of Jews, Unitarians and others who just aren't comfortable with some of the "blood of the Lamb" and specific reference to Jesus parts of songs that are just wonderful to sing.

Editorializing:
I've mixed feelings about those sorts of changes. I sing them as a Christian, and keep trying to ease the "folk/oldtime" gospel into (high Episcopal) church services when I can. Yet I see, understand, and respect that others do not hold the same belief.

When the words are changed because someone feels the power of the words expressing a belief they do not hold, and are doing it as a respectful difference of opinion, I see no foul.

However, when I hear Gospel hymns/songs with what to me are sacred references mocked or warped in disdainful ways, I get livid. When it appears to be making the Christianity "universally PC" I get quite irked. There's an example in a much maligned blue book that sets my teeth on edge - there are chapters of "gospel" "spirituals" and yet they saw fit to take a phrase about praying out of a song in another category.

Joanne in Cleveland who will sing "Angel Band anywhere with anyone.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Altered folk songs
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 11:46 AM

Another group of 'folk songs' that were cleaned up for publication are servicemen's songs, take for instance 'Madomoselle from Armientire'[sorry about the spelling but you know the song I mean]and
'Bless them all'.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Altered folk songs
From: nutty
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 10:52 AM

Joe
I think this may be what you are looking for. I found it in the Bodleian.

The Frolicsome Keeper

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Altered folk songs
From: Bert
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 09:19 AM

There's "The Lincolnshire Poacher" which was quite likely bawdy itself originally but then it morphed to "The Chandler's Wife" which was then cleaned up AGAIN to "The Thing"

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Altered folk songs
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 09:05 AM

Thanks, Brian - pure gold.

Valmai

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Altered folk songs
From: Noreen
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 09:04 AM

Bill, I'm surprised- I thought you'd be all for encouraging an enthusiastic young lady in her study of traditional song.

Perhaps you'll come back without the curmudgeonly hat on... :)

Hi again Natasha, don't be put off- as you can see, there is a wealth of information here already for you to follow up.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Altered folk songs
From: Brian Peters
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 08:35 AM

"Another quite large area of change, I think, is where the supernatural element was removed from British songs travelling to America because it offended religious sensibilities"

We discussed that at length here, Valmai. My own view is that supernatural elements disappeared in Britain as well, and that this was to do with the growth in rational belief as much as religious proscription. Ghosts and the Devil do turn up in North American ballads, and many of the really hairy witch ballads like Willie's Lady and Allison Gross, or the faerie ones like Tam Lin are known only from rare and old Scots versions. The Demon Lover lost its demon in Scotland as well as America.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Altered folk songs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 08:33 AM

Probably worth having a look at the way shanties got cleaned up both sexually and politically.

But the trouble is knowing what actually happened!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Altered folk songs
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 08:22 AM

Highly to be recommended in connection with the topic of this thread, and of your research, are James Reeves' introductions to his editions of the manuscripts of Cecil Sharp and Baring-Gould, The Idiom Of The People and The Everlasting Circle.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Altered folk songs
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 07:26 AM

A thought: has anyone filmed or recorded Leo Baker singing 'Get hold of this, get hold of that' which started life as 'When There Isn't A Girl About'? It's a good example of a fairly innocent song from the early 20th. century being changed into cheerful smut during the middle of the century - the reverse of bowdlerization.

Valmai (Lewes)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Altered folk songs
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 07:04 AM

I can vouch for the OP. She's a friend of my daughter at Leeds University and is a serious researcher. Please don't discourage a young enthusiast. Suggesting things for her to read and listen to is very vaulable. Apart from that, how is she to get hold of living material that's evolving without speaking to the people who sing and play it?

Thanks for the helpful replies.

Valmai (Lewes)

P.S. Another quite large area of change, I think, is where the supernatural element was removed from British songs travelling to America because it offended religious sensibilities.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Altered folk songs
From: Brian Peters
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 06:53 AM

Many old ballads either evolved or were recast by unknown hands, and lost overtly sexual and supernatural elements, e.g. Child #2 (Elfin Knight / Cambric Shirt), which is a great example of a piece that evolved ultimately into a nonsense song. Ballads often exist in dozens of variant forms, sometimes with substantial textual differences, but beware of talking about 'the original version' since in many cases that's not tracable. 'The earliest known version' is safer.

If you look at Vance Randolph's "Roll Me In Your Arms" collection of bawdy songs from the Ozarks, you'll find all manner of rude stuff - but are those songs parodies of 'clean' versions, or bawdy originals that are generally known to us in cleaned-up forms?

For analysis of what the collectors got up to, a good starting point is a Google search for 'Cecil Sharp + bowdlerized' or 'Baring-Gould + bowdlerized', which will turn up all kinds of results, including dozens from Mudcat that you don't necessarily find on an internal search. You might want to look at sea shanties as well. But a lot of that kind of alteration was inevitable for songs intended for publication.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Altered folk songs
From: Marje
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 05:38 AM

I think it's an excellent way to broaden your research. A lot of what goes on in the transmission and evolution of songs is simply not documented, but many people here will be able to give some current or recent examples that you can then follow up.

Incidentally, Natasha, it'd be worth registering on Mudcat rather than staying as a "Guest". It gives you more credibility, and also it enables you to exchange personal messages with other individuals on the forum. It's easy to do, and doesn't result in spam or other nuisances.

Now I'll start thinking of some songs that have altered... actually it's harder to think of any that haven't, but I'll try to think about the important and persistent changes. It's an interesting project, good luck!

Marje

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Altered folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 04:49 AM

Hi, yes sorry it must look a bit strange asking on here but I was recommended to post a thread by someone, and I've found through looking through numerous books that the best people to ask about folk are the folk themselves! Though I hasten to add that I definately will not be simply cutting and pasting, this is just to be a pointer to more in depth research.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Altered folk songs
From: EBarnacle
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 11:49 PM

During the auction, Jennifer sent me a copy of Bawdy British Folk Songs by McCarthy. The version of The Keeper in there is the same tame version we all learned in grade school. I can see how it could be allegorical but, unless you know the back story, there is no semblance of bawdiness there.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Altered folk songs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 06:56 PM

Now, Bill, I would think that Mudcat would be a wonderful place to get leads on such things. Of course, the person writing the dissertation would then follow up with serious research and documentation. I mean, she's not asking us to write the dissertation, is she?

I spent the last half-hour looking for bawdy versions of "The Keeper," and had no luck. Can somebody point me in the right direction?

-Joe-


Here's the Roud Index Search, but Roud doesn't have a "PG-13" to point out which songs are bawdy....

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Altered folk songs
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 06:43 PM

Well, I have no objection to giving my opinion on almost anything. To me the most unnecesary, foolish and inept changes are when they change from male to female or back again. Usually horribly clumsy and if you know the original very irksome. Lots of examples of this. mg

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Altered folk songs
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 06:36 PM

hmmm...forgive my cynicism, but I thought research usually involved more than just having 'experts' send you all your material to just copy & rearrange.

But, I suppose some will call ME petty and provide lots of answers.

Subject: Lyr Req: Altered folk songs
From: GUEST,Natasha
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 05:38 PM

Hi there,

For my dissertation I am studying folk songs and how they have been altered by folklorists in accordance with their own/society's values.

I need your help in order to find as many altered songs as possible, which are substantially different from their original text. These changes can be through:

• Change of subject
• Change of meaning
• Removal of sexual content/double entendre
• Removal of bawdy language
• Removal of political content

A classic example is "The Keeper," a bawdy song about a huntsman preying on local women, which was censored by Cecil Sharp in order to make it "suitable" for children to sing. The altered version therefore depicted an actual hunting scene with no sexual connotations.

If you know of any songs similar to this which have numerous variations, or which have been notably changed from their original form, please answer the following question below:

Q. Are you aware of any British folk songs which have been significantly changed, either over time or via the intervention of folklorists?

(Please include the name of the song(s), approximate data of the songs' creation and/or change, the author and the geographical area of origin if known)

Thanks for your help!
Natasha