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Origins: Viva La Quince Brigada (Christy Moore?)

DigiTrad:
CONTINENTAL CEILIDH
DELIRIUM TREMENS
VIVA LA QUINCE BRIGADA


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Len Wallace 04 Sep 99 - 10:57 PM
Jon Freeman 04 Sep 99 - 11:36 PM
wildlone 05 Sep 99 - 09:16 AM
John Moulden 05 Sep 99 - 03:24 PM
Philippa 06 Sep 99 - 08:21 AM
Len Wallace 06 Sep 99 - 11:55 PM
John Moulden 07 Sep 99 - 06:20 AM
Jim Dixon 25 Apr 06 - 10:49 PM
Wolfgang 26 Apr 06 - 09:29 AM
Jim Dixon 26 Apr 06 - 10:49 AM
Wolfgang 26 Apr 06 - 11:01 AM
GUEST,Mick 26 Apr 06 - 02:59 PM
Wolfgang 28 Apr 06 - 12:55 PM
Wilfried Schaum 03 May 06 - 03:15 AM
Wolfgang 24 Jul 06 - 01:27 PM
GeoffLawes 24 Jul 06 - 07:01 PM
GUEST,Alec Somerville 29 Apr 08 - 01:09 PM
GUEST,Malcolm Redfellow 10 Jun 08 - 09:31 AM
GUEST 19 Apr 09 - 09:24 PM
GUEST,Nick Ryan 09 Mar 11 - 07:53 AM
Dave Hanson 09 Mar 11 - 10:16 AM
GeoffLawes 09 Mar 11 - 06:34 PM
Effsee 09 Mar 11 - 10:44 PM
GUEST,Alex 10 Mar 11 - 03:26 AM
Dave Hanson 10 Mar 11 - 03:37 AM
MartinRyan 10 Mar 11 - 04:08 AM
GUEST,Desi C 10 Mar 11 - 07:35 AM
Dave Hanson 10 Mar 11 - 09:32 AM
MartinRyan 10 Mar 11 - 04:36 PM
GUEST,Tinker in Chicago 10 Mar 11 - 05:23 PM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 11 Mar 11 - 08:18 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Mar 11 - 10:49 AM
GUEST,Ewan McVicar 12 Mar 11 - 08:48 AM
GUEST 09 Dec 11 - 06:24 PM
GUEST,Diarmuid Breatnach 19 Mar 17 - 03:49 PM
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Subject: Christy Moore: Song composer?
From: Len Wallace
Date: 04 Sep 99 - 10:57 PM

I admire the work of Christy Moore, but his recordings and songbook are often lax on giving information on who wrote the songs he sings.

I am looking for "Nancy Spain" and "Viva La Quince Brigada". Did he actually write these songs himself. If not, who did?

Len Wallace


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Subject: RE: Christy Moore: Song composer?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 04 Sep 99 - 11:36 PM

Nancy Spain was written by Barney Rush. On the Christy Moore record I have with it on, Christy Moore says that he heard Barney Rush sining the song in Jersey, Channel Islands in 1968.

I don't know about the other song.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Christy Moore: Song composer?
From: wildlone
Date: 05 Sep 99 - 09:16 AM

In the Christy Moore songbook he states that he wrote the song in 1983,in memory of the Irish men who fought in the Spanish civil war.Chrity Moore songbook.pub Brandon 1984. ISBN0-86322-063-0 hope this helps WL


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Subject: RE: Christy Moore: Song composer?
From: John Moulden
Date: 05 Sep 99 - 03:24 PM

His claim to authorship of Viva la Quince Brigada is spurious - he may have adapted it but it is an authentic song of the Spanish Civil War and was performed on a Topic EP in the 1960s by the Ian Campbell Folk Group.


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Subject: la Quince Brigada
From: Philippa
Date: 06 Sep 99 - 08:21 AM

The original song was in Spanish. Christy sings English verses and tells of men like Frank Ryan who went from Ireland to fight against Facism. So if Christy claims authorship, I suppose he did write those English verses in 1983 as he says he did.

Viva la Quince Brigada
Rhum-ba-la, Rhum-ba-la, Rhum-ba-la
Viva la Quince Brigada
Rhum-ba-la, Rhum-ba-la, Rhum-ba-la

Que seha cubierta de gloria
Ay Manuela, ay Manuela

Luchamos contra los Morros
Rhum-ba-la, Rhum-ba-la, Rhum-ba-la
Mercenairos y fascistas
Rhum-ba-la, Rhum-ba-la, Rhum-ba-la ...

Is that the same song Ian Campbell recorded?? If so, it's very different from Christy Moore's


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Subject: RE: Christy Moore: Song composer?
From: Len Wallace
Date: 06 Sep 99 - 11:55 PM

The original song, "Viva La Quince Brigada" was written in Spain in 1936. No problem there.

The song he sings to the same title on his recording "Ride On" is a very different song.

I perform both songs, the original following the song Christy Moore recorded dealing specifically with the James connolly Battalion that went to fight Franco in '36. And recorded it that way in 1988 on my first recording.

Originally i thought Christy wrote the first song which begins "Years before I saw the light of morning, a comradeship of heroes was laid..."


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Subject: RE: Christy Moore: Song composer?
From: John Moulden
Date: 07 Sep 99 - 06:20 AM

I stand corected - I've now looked at a copy of the CM songbook and the song he calls "Viva la quince brigada" has no resemblence to the Spanish song, or the translation the Campbells sang. There is no reason to deny his authorship.


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Subject: Lyr Add: VIVA LA QUINCE BRIGADA (Spanish version)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 10:49 PM

The following lyrics are copied from the Wikipedia article Fifteenth International Brigade (song).

(That article also has the Christy Moore song with the same title that is in the DT.)

VIVA LA QUINCE BRIGADA
Spanish Version

Viva la quince brigada,
Rumba la, rumba la, rumba la,
Viva la quince brigada,
Rumba la, rumba la, rumba la,
Que se ha cubierto de gloria.
¡Ay, Manuela! ¡Ay, Manuela!
Que se ha cubierto de gloria.
¡Ay, Manuela! ¡Ay, Manuela!

Luchamos contra los moros,
Rumba la, rumba la, rumba la,
Luchamos contra los moros,
Rumba la, rumba la, rumba la,
Mercenarios y fascistas.
¡Ay, Manuela! ¡Ay, Manuela!
Mercenarios y fascistas.
¡Ay, Manuela! ¡Ay, Manuela!

Solo es nuestro deseo,
Rumba la, rumba la, rumba la,
Solo es nuestro deseo,
Rumba la, rumba la, rumba la,
Acabar con el fascismo.
¡Ay, Manuela! ¡Ay, Manuela!
Acabar con el fascismo.
¡Ay, Manuela! ¡Ay, Manuela!

En los frentes de Jarama,
Rumba la, rumba la, rumba la,
En los frentes de Jarama,
Rumba la, rumba la, rumba la,
No tenemos ni aviones, ni tanques, ti cañones.
¡Ay, Manuela! ¡Ay, Manuela!
No tenemos ni aviones, ni tanques, ti cañones.
¡Ay, Manuela! ¡Ay, Manuela!

Ya salimos de España,
Rumba la, rumba la, rumba la,
Ya salimos de España,
Rumba la, rumba la, rumba la,
A luchar en otros frentes,
¡Ay, Manuela! ¡Ay, Manuela!
A luchar en otros frentes,
¡Ay, Manuela! ¡Ay, Manuela!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Viva La Quince Brigada (Christy Moore
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Apr 06 - 09:29 AM

Viva la quince brigada
Viva la quinta brigada

You see the difference? 'Quince' is 'fifteenth' and 'quinta' is 'fifth'. Christy Moore sings audible 'quinta' and 'fifth international brigade' and has it in this version on his website.

Wikipedia (and the DT by the way) interestingly reprints Christy Moore's song and changes both the title and the lyrics into 'fifteenth' without commenting that change. As far as I can see wikipedia is historically correct and Christy Moore is wrong.

The two songs are completely different. I interpret Christy Moore as quoting (rather misquoting) the old song title in his new song.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Origins: Viva La Quince Brigada (Christy Moore)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 26 Apr 06 - 10:49 AM

Wolfgang: Thanks for the clarification. I wondered about the difference, but not knowing the Spanish (or the history) I thought maybe it was just a matter of variant spelling.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Viva La Quince Brigada (Christy Moore
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Apr 06 - 11:01 AM

I now see that the same point has been made already in another thread that is not (yet) crosslinked:

Viva la quinta brigada

(and it's 'audibly')

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Origins: Viva La Quince Brigada (Christy Moore)
From: GUEST,Mick
Date: 26 Apr 06 - 02:59 PM

Christy may have wrote the lyrics but the tune is the same as "Erin's Green Shore"
Oh that lady I never will forget her
And green was the mantle she wore
As she followed the shamrock of freedom
And rode around Erin's Green Shore

I don't know whether that came before or after "Red River Valley"


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Subject: RE: Origins: Viva La Quince Brigada (Christy Moore
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 12:55 PM

That 'five' 'fifteen' mystery still did bother me. So I did a little research project:

Christy Moore has in both of his songbooks 'fifteenth' in the lyrics, on his website he has 'fifth' (the lyrics printout on the Ride On LP says 'fifty' but we don't take that serious). The title on the recording is given as 'Vive la quinte brigada' but that has been corrected menawhile in print. I've listened last night and I'm sure he sings 'fifth'. So who's right, Wikipedia or Christy Moore. My newest guess is that they are both right for it is just a matter of counting.

From the Wikipedia article about the International brigades:

The first International Brigade, the XIth Brigade (numbered XI, next to the ten mixed brigades of the Spanish regular army)...

So the international brigades started with the number 11, therefore the 15th brigade altogether was the 5th of the international brigades. And this brigade (in which Frank Ryan's men fought) was the '5th international brigade' if one counted only the international brigades or the 15th international brigade if one counted all brigades and used the 'international' only as an adjective to 15th brigade.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Origins: Viva La Quince Brigada (Christy Moore
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 03 May 06 - 03:15 AM

Linguistic approach:
In the Spanish Foro por la memoria we find different ways how the Brigada XV is named:
- ... en la decimo quinta Brigada Internacional ... and: Viva la Quince Brigada!
One would not expect quince brigada, but correctly the ordinal number decimo quinta brigada.
- XV Brigada [often], Brigada XV [once]
Is the XV ordinal number of the counted brigades, or a cardinal number as the brigade's name, and brigada the apposition?
Not even the Spanish in their home language do it always the same way.

From the history of battles we can say: The brigade in question must be the 15th.

[the accent over the e in decimo omitted due to HTML difficulties]


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Subject: RE: Origins: Viva La Quince Brigada (Christy Moore
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 01:27 PM

In the new double CD "Live at the Point 2006" CM sings 'fifteenth'.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Origins: Viva La Quince Brigada (Christy Moore)
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 07:01 PM

Here is a link to a video of him performing it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm_qCcCPSB8


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Subject: RE: Origins: Viva La Quince Brigada (Christy Moore
From: GUEST,Alec Somerville
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 01:09 PM

Hi Len Wallace -squeezebox still yer friend? Christy Moore DID write this song, it is a fairly factual account of Ireland's participation in the Spanish Civil War ie both for and against the Fascists - Ireland almost officially provided a battalion of 'Blueshirts' commanded by E.O'Duffy who 'fought' in one battle and were shipped home. They had been bamboozled to fight the 'Anti-Christ Republicans' by the Church and Press in Ireland. By contrast the 'Connolly Column' (named for a hero of the 1916 Rising against the British and a Labour Leader) was a volunteer group of both North and South Irish who fought the War usually attached to the British (Major Clement Attlee) Battalion or the Canadian (Mackenzie-Papineau) Battalion, and at times with the US (Lincoln) Brigade; as there were not enough Irish for a Battalion, but under Major Frank RYAN they made their contribution and their mark as a vital addition to the XV International Brigade - the famous 'Quince Brigada' who are finally being honoured both in Spain and in their homelands... They fought Fascism before WWII and we ought to be proud of them - Viva!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Viva La Quince Brigada (Christy Moore
From: GUEST,Malcolm Redfellow
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 09:31 AM

This (with the parallel discussion on 5th/15th Brigades) is a fascinating thread: I wish I'd come to the party earlier.

I am dubious whether what follows is of any great help; and I realise that I am talking to experts; but may I make a couple of tangential points?

First, I guess that Christy Moore song owes something to Sean Cronin's 1980 book on Frank Ryan (now only available second-hand, and frequently at a price beyond rubies).

Second, the confusion between 5th/15th may be quite straightforward. The Fifth Regiment was the Communist Party's militia. Chapter 27 of Hugh Thomas's history of "The Spanish Civil War" considers why this was so effective a fighting force:
"... the most formidable of the Republican forces in the Sierras was that founded by the Communist Party, the Fifth Regiment. It was so named because there had customarily been four regular regiments stationed in Madrid, whose military organization, rather than the revolutionary and enthusiastic indiscipline of the militias, the Communist party from the start tried to emulate.
"The force was based upon the Communist-Socialist Youth, but others joined as a result of the recruiting drive led by La Pasionaria ... By the end of July [1936], nearly 8,000 members of this group had gone to the front. By early September, 30,000 persons had been members of it at one time or another, many having passed on to other groups. In addition to its regular organization, the Fifth Regiment adopted the use of political Commissars employed by the Red Army in the Russian Civil War, with the declared aim of making clear to the soldiers what they were fighting for."

It occurs to me that "Viva la Quince Brigada" is in Spanish. Were it from the 15th Brigade, it would more likely be (as the other songs are) in one of the languages of the Brigaders

Compare the size of the 5th Regiment with what, in Appendix Three, Thomas says on the size of the International Brigade:
"The total number of foreigners who fought in the International Brigade was about 40,000, though the Brigades never exceeded 18,000 at any one time.... The largest national group of volunteers were the 10,000 French, of whom 3,000 were killed. Germany and Austria together contributed about 5,000, of whom 2,000 died. Italy came next with 3,350. The United States contributed about 2,800. Of these about 900 were killed. There were about 2,000 British volunteers, of whom over 500 were killed and 1,200 wounded. There were about 1,000 Canadian volunteers, 1,500 Yugoslavs, 1,000 Hungarians, 1,500 Czechs, and 1,000 Scandinavians. The other 3,000 volunteers came from what was claimed to be fifty-three nations."

One further complication: the Irish involvement (which takes us back to Christy). The original "unit" of just 80 went out to Spain in December 1936, expecting to support the Basques, whose cause was espoused by the Republican Congress. The intended commander was to be George Gilmore, but his broken leg (caused by a crash landing visiting Bilbao) promoted Frank Ryan. There already were Irish fighting in Spain, with the Thaelmann Battalion (Tomas Patton from Achill and Wiliam Barry from Dublin and Mebourne died in the defence of Madrid in December 1936).

Anyone trying to work out the list of names in Moore's song could usefully refer to Mick O'Riordan's paper at CLICK HERE


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Subject: RE: CD: Spanish Civil War Songs and Letters
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 09 - 09:24 PM

Viva la Quince Brigada,
rumba la rumba la rumba la,
Que se ha cubierto de gloria,
Ay Manuela

Luchamos contra los moros,
rumb a la rumba
L

Mercenarios y fascistas,
Ay manuela
Soso es nuestro deseo, rumba la rumba
solos es neustro deseo
acabar con el fascismo,

en el frente de jarama

no tenemos ne aviones, ni tangues ni canones,
Ya salimos de Espana
rumba la rumba

A luchar en otros frentes


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Subject: RE: Origins: Viva La Quince Brigada (Christy Moore?)
From: GUEST,Nick Ryan
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 07:53 AM

From what I've read there was no Fifth International Brigade, but as someone pointed out above the IBs started at 11. The Spanish song 'Viva La Quinta Brigada' is about the Spanish 5th Brigade, the Christy Moore song is about the 15th International Brigade. At some point after he recorded the original, erroneous, version, Christy realised the mistake and changed to Quince (15), which he has stuck to ever since.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Viva La Quince Brigada (Christy Moore?)
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 10:16 AM

Christy Moore was always very good at writing other peoples songs,ie. The Spanish Lady etc and never very good with his pronunciations.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Origins: Viva La Quince Brigada (Christy Moore?)
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 06:34 PM

Songs in English About the Spanish Civil War -Viva La Quince Brigada


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Subject: RE: Origins: Viva La Quince Brigada (Christy Moore?)
From: Effsee
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 10:44 PM

Not sure what you're getting at there Mr.Hanson...Christy certainly makes no concessions with his accent...perhaps you are confusing that with enunciation. As for writing other peoples songs, perhaps you can elucidate.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Viva La Quince Brigada (Christy Moore?)
From: GUEST,Alex
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 03:26 AM

Not for the first time, Dave Hanson is talking utter garbage. When did Christy ever claim to have written The Spanish Lady? He's always gone out of his way to namecheck other songwriters or credit the source of his material. His book One Voice: My Life gives a thorough account of the background of most of the material he sings.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Viva La Quince Brigada (Christy Moore?)
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 03:37 AM

Check what Christy says about The Spanish Lady in The Christy Moore Songbook.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Origins: Viva La Quince Brigada (Christy Moore?)
From: MartinRyan
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 04:08 AM

He describes it as "Author Unknown" and says "I also feel that I may have written some lines but I can't figure out which ones."

So?

Regards


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Subject: RE: Origins: Viva La Quince Brigada (Christy Moore?)
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 07:35 AM

Yes, as others have concurred, Barney Rush wrote Nancy Spain, and gave it to Moore who did nothing with it for a year or two, then recorded it and was a big hit. And Christy wrote the other in honour of Irish who fought in the Spanish Civil war, the 5th Brigade I believe


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Subject: RE: Origins: Viva La Quince Brigada (Christy Moore?)
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 09:32 AM

In my copy Christy says, ' I wrote two verses, and don't know where the rest came from '

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Origins: Viva La Quince Brigada (Christy Moore?)
From: MartinRyan
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 04:36 PM

Sounds like his memory improved between the first and second editions!

Regards

p.s. In fact, when I look at them, only the first of Christy's four verses looks familiar to me. The others bear little resemblance to the version ascribed to Joseph Campbell or the variants on it that I've heard. Must check other threads...


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Subject: RE: Origins: Viva La Quince Brigada (Christy Moore?)
From: GUEST,Tinker in Chicago
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 05:23 PM

With regard to a different lyric in this song, can anyone tell me where to find out more information about the Catholic Church leaders in Ireland supporting Hitler? What?? ("the Bishops blessed the Blueshirts in Dun Laoghaire/As they sailed beneath the swastika to Spain.")


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Subject: RE: Origins: Viva La Quince Brigada (Christy Moore?)
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 08:18 AM

Watch out, lads. I think I see Jim and Keith approaching.....


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Subject: RE: Origins: Viva La Quince Brigada (Christy Moore?)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 10:49 AM

Daa-rahh - (can't speak for Keith).
My father was excommunicated from the church for fighting for the Republicans in Spain. Members of his family were given a miserable time in school because of their Commie brother.
Having been wounded by shrapnel, he was hospitalised then imprisoned in San Sebastian Goal.
He tells the story of a young lad of about 14 being brought into the prison suspected of being a messenger for the Republicans. The Italian commandant decided there was not enough evidence to convict the boy and was prepared to let him go, when a priest from the lad's village, there to see to the prisoners' spiritual needs, gave evidence against the lad, who was shot with a dozen more the following day.
When he told me the story it was the only time I ever saw my father weep.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Origins: Viva La Quince Brigada (Christy Moore?)
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 08:48 AM

Hamish Henderson sang the Spanish song with gusto, and used the tune for his 'Free Mandela'.
Ewan


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Subject: RE: Origins: Viva La Quince Brigada (Christy Moore?)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 06:24 PM

Viva!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Viva La Quince Brigada (Christy Moore?)
From: GUEST,Diarmuid Breatnach
Date: 19 Mar 17 - 03:49 PM

Sorry, I have not read the whole thread but I can tell you categorically that those men mentioned in the song which begins "Ten years before I saw the light of morning" was the Fifteenth International Brigade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XV_International_Brigade which was mainly composed of English-speaking battalions and columns.   Those are only some of the known Irish who fell fighting fascism in the territory of the Spanish state.

In the English lyrics of Christy's song, he says "Fifteenth" and its what is printed in his songbook. My guess is that it's what he sings too although on a recording it is possible to mishear it as "Fifty".

At a guess, Christy took advice from someone who misinformed him about the correct Spanish for Fifteenth, which would be La Decimoquinto and told him "Quinta" which means "Fifth".

Decimoquinto has five syllables instead of the two of Quinta. However, one can get over that by singing Quinze (fifteen) which is not strictly grammatically correct and which has the misfortune of being the title of an older Spanish Civil War song.

The reference to the air of Red River Valley does not belong in my view to EITHER of those songs but to another, The Valley of Jarama, composed by a fighter of the British Battalion, Alex McDade which does go to the air of the Red River Valley. This song was adapted to cover the Lincoln Battalion by Woody Guthrie and also changed somewhat for the British Battalion in later years.

I don't know where Christy got the air for HIS Viva La Quinze Brigada which in my view is one of the best songs dealing with the period and a great song in its own right.

Viven!


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