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BS: Muslim prejudice

Brian May 20 Jan 11 - 07:58 AM
Manitas_at_home 20 Jan 11 - 08:16 AM
Bobert 20 Jan 11 - 08:24 AM
Dave MacKenzie 20 Jan 11 - 08:32 AM
DMcG 20 Jan 11 - 08:48 AM
GUEST,Silas 20 Jan 11 - 08:49 AM
InOBU 20 Jan 11 - 08:51 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 11 - 08:53 AM
Bobert 20 Jan 11 - 08:54 AM
GUEST,number 6 20 Jan 11 - 09:06 AM
GUEST,kendall 20 Jan 11 - 09:37 AM
GUEST,Eliza 20 Jan 11 - 12:44 PM
Joe Offer 20 Jan 11 - 01:17 PM
mauvepink 20 Jan 11 - 01:36 PM
Brian May 20 Jan 11 - 01:45 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 20 Jan 11 - 02:44 PM
GUEST,Eliza 20 Jan 11 - 03:15 PM
DonMeixner 20 Jan 11 - 03:28 PM
mauvepink 20 Jan 11 - 03:44 PM
GUEST,Eliza 20 Jan 11 - 03:44 PM
GUEST,Eliza 20 Jan 11 - 03:48 PM
Greg F. 20 Jan 11 - 03:59 PM
DonMeixner 20 Jan 11 - 04:09 PM
akenaton 20 Jan 11 - 04:22 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 20 Jan 11 - 04:38 PM
akenaton 20 Jan 11 - 04:49 PM
Richard Bridge 20 Jan 11 - 06:41 PM
Richard Bridge 20 Jan 11 - 06:45 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 11 - 07:11 PM
Acorn4 20 Jan 11 - 07:30 PM
akenaton 20 Jan 11 - 07:33 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 20 Jan 11 - 07:48 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 11 - 07:55 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 11 - 08:07 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 11 - 08:08 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jan 11 - 03:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jan 11 - 03:31 AM
Richard Bridge 21 Jan 11 - 04:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jan 11 - 04:45 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Jan 11 - 05:33 AM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 21 Jan 11 - 05:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jan 11 - 05:50 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Jan 11 - 05:51 AM
akenaton 21 Jan 11 - 06:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jan 11 - 06:12 AM
theleveller 21 Jan 11 - 06:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jan 11 - 06:23 AM
GUEST,Jim Knowledge 21 Jan 11 - 06:38 AM
Stu 21 Jan 11 - 06:42 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 21 Jan 11 - 07:34 AM
theleveller 21 Jan 11 - 07:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jan 11 - 08:12 AM
theleveller 21 Jan 11 - 08:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jan 11 - 08:17 AM
theleveller 21 Jan 11 - 08:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jan 11 - 08:52 AM
Lox 21 Jan 11 - 09:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jan 11 - 09:45 AM
Lox 21 Jan 11 - 09:48 AM
Lox 21 Jan 11 - 09:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jan 11 - 10:03 AM
Greg F. 21 Jan 11 - 10:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jan 11 - 01:21 PM
Greg F. 21 Jan 11 - 01:49 PM
Lox 21 Jan 11 - 01:55 PM
Lox 21 Jan 11 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 21 Jan 11 - 02:12 PM
Stringsinger 21 Jan 11 - 02:19 PM
GUEST,999 21 Jan 11 - 02:24 PM
Lox 21 Jan 11 - 05:45 PM
GUEST,999 21 Jan 11 - 05:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jan 11 - 06:36 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Jan 11 - 06:43 AM
Lox 22 Jan 11 - 11:40 AM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 22 Jan 11 - 12:18 PM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 22 Jan 11 - 01:04 PM
Lox 22 Jan 11 - 01:28 PM
Brian May 22 Jan 11 - 04:30 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Jan 11 - 07:17 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Jan 11 - 08:00 PM
akenaton 23 Jan 11 - 05:19 AM
akenaton 23 Jan 11 - 05:27 AM
Lox 23 Jan 11 - 09:18 AM
Lox 23 Jan 11 - 09:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jan 11 - 09:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jan 11 - 09:45 AM
Lox 23 Jan 11 - 10:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jan 11 - 10:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jan 11 - 10:41 AM
akenaton 23 Jan 11 - 11:08 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 23 Jan 11 - 02:02 PM
Lox 23 Jan 11 - 02:08 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jan 11 - 03:48 PM
GUEST,999 23 Jan 11 - 04:58 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Jan 11 - 05:20 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 23 Jan 11 - 06:17 PM
Lox 23 Jan 11 - 06:21 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 23 Jan 11 - 06:32 PM
Lox 23 Jan 11 - 06:38 PM
Lox 23 Jan 11 - 06:52 PM
Lox 23 Jan 11 - 06:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jan 11 - 01:39 AM
Lox 24 Jan 11 - 05:17 AM
Lox 24 Jan 11 - 05:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jan 11 - 05:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jan 11 - 05:40 AM
Richard Bridge 24 Jan 11 - 05:46 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 11 - 05:52 AM
Lox 24 Jan 11 - 06:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jan 11 - 06:07 AM
Lox 24 Jan 11 - 06:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jan 11 - 07:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jan 11 - 07:38 AM
Richard Bridge 24 Jan 11 - 08:09 AM
GUEST 24 Jan 11 - 11:15 AM
akenaton 24 Jan 11 - 02:54 PM
Lox 24 Jan 11 - 03:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jan 11 - 05:28 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 11 - 05:28 PM
Lox 24 Jan 11 - 05:35 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 11 - 05:38 PM
Smedley 24 Jan 11 - 05:59 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jan 11 - 01:45 AM
akenaton 25 Jan 11 - 02:58 AM
Lox 25 Jan 11 - 03:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jan 11 - 04:46 AM
Richard Bridge 25 Jan 11 - 06:08 AM
Lox 25 Jan 11 - 06:22 AM
Lox 25 Jan 11 - 06:29 AM
Lox 25 Jan 11 - 06:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jan 11 - 07:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jan 11 - 07:36 AM
Lox 25 Jan 11 - 08:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jan 11 - 08:28 AM
Richard Bridge 25 Jan 11 - 08:28 AM
Lox 25 Jan 11 - 08:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jan 11 - 08:51 AM
Lox 25 Jan 11 - 08:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jan 11 - 08:57 AM
Lox 25 Jan 11 - 09:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jan 11 - 09:13 AM
Lox 25 Jan 11 - 09:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jan 11 - 09:37 AM
Lox 25 Jan 11 - 09:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jan 11 - 09:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jan 11 - 09:50 AM
Lox 25 Jan 11 - 09:54 AM
Lox 25 Jan 11 - 10:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jan 11 - 10:04 AM
Lox 25 Jan 11 - 10:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jan 11 - 10:23 AM
Richard Bridge 25 Jan 11 - 01:40 PM
Lox 25 Jan 11 - 01:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jan 11 - 03:03 PM
Dave the Gnome 25 Jan 11 - 03:57 PM
akenaton 25 Jan 11 - 04:03 PM
Lox 25 Jan 11 - 04:20 PM
Lox 25 Jan 11 - 04:26 PM
Lox 25 Jan 11 - 04:29 PM
Lox 25 Jan 11 - 04:54 PM
Lox 25 Jan 11 - 05:03 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 Jan 11 - 05:50 PM
GUEST,999 25 Jan 11 - 05:56 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 Jan 11 - 06:12 PM
akenaton 25 Jan 11 - 06:23 PM
GUEST,999 25 Jan 11 - 06:24 PM
Dorothy Parshall 25 Jan 11 - 06:34 PM
Lox 25 Jan 11 - 06:36 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 Jan 11 - 06:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jan 11 - 07:11 PM
akenaton 25 Jan 11 - 07:21 PM
Lox 25 Jan 11 - 07:33 PM
Lox 25 Jan 11 - 08:19 PM
Lox 25 Jan 11 - 08:44 PM
akenaton 26 Jan 11 - 03:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jan 11 - 03:19 AM
Lox 26 Jan 11 - 03:49 AM
Lox 26 Jan 11 - 03:54 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 26 Jan 11 - 05:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jan 11 - 05:44 AM
Lox 26 Jan 11 - 02:02 PM
Greg F. 26 Jan 11 - 02:13 PM
MGM·Lion 26 Jan 11 - 02:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jan 11 - 03:13 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jan 11 - 02:19 AM
Lox 27 Jan 11 - 04:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jan 11 - 05:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jan 11 - 10:27 AM
Greg F. 27 Jan 11 - 02:02 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jan 11 - 02:22 PM
GUEST,999 27 Jan 11 - 02:38 PM
Lox 27 Jan 11 - 05:17 PM
Lox 27 Jan 11 - 07:21 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 27 Jan 11 - 09:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jan 11 - 02:03 AM
Richard Bridge 28 Jan 11 - 04:12 AM
Lox 28 Jan 11 - 05:13 AM
Lox 28 Jan 11 - 05:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jan 11 - 05:36 AM
Lox 28 Jan 11 - 05:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jan 11 - 06:18 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Jan 11 - 06:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jan 11 - 06:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jan 11 - 07:19 AM
Lox 28 Jan 11 - 07:41 AM
Richard Bridge 28 Jan 11 - 07:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jan 11 - 07:57 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Jan 11 - 09:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jan 11 - 09:24 AM
Lox 28 Jan 11 - 11:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jan 11 - 11:58 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 28 Jan 11 - 12:31 PM
Lox 28 Jan 11 - 12:42 PM
Lox 28 Jan 11 - 12:44 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 28 Jan 11 - 01:21 PM
Lox 28 Jan 11 - 01:56 PM
Dorothy Parshall 28 Jan 11 - 03:28 PM
Greg F. 28 Jan 11 - 03:50 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 11 - 03:59 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 29 Jan 11 - 05:09 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 29 Jan 11 - 05:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 11 - 06:04 AM
Lox 29 Jan 11 - 07:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 11 - 07:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 11 - 08:00 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 29 Jan 11 - 08:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 11 - 10:53 AM
Greg F. 29 Jan 11 - 10:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 11 - 11:15 AM
Greg F. 29 Jan 11 - 12:53 PM
MGM·Lion 29 Jan 11 - 01:16 PM
Lox 29 Jan 11 - 02:48 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 29 Jan 11 - 02:57 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 11 - 03:15 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Jan 11 - 04:36 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 11 - 04:55 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 29 Jan 11 - 07:00 PM
MGM·Lion 30 Jan 11 - 12:21 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 30 Jan 11 - 04:29 AM
Lox 30 Jan 11 - 05:59 AM
Lox 30 Jan 11 - 06:11 AM
Lox 30 Jan 11 - 06:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 11 - 08:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 11 - 09:03 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Jan 11 - 09:13 AM
Smedley 30 Jan 11 - 09:15 AM
Smedley 30 Jan 11 - 09:17 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Jan 11 - 09:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 11 - 09:26 AM
Lox 30 Jan 11 - 09:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 11 - 09:50 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Jan 11 - 09:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 11 - 10:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 11 - 10:06 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Jan 11 - 10:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 11 - 10:56 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Jan 11 - 02:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 11 - 04:10 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 30 Jan 11 - 04:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 11 - 04:57 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Jan 11 - 05:59 PM
Lox 30 Jan 11 - 06:47 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Jan 11 - 07:57 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Jan 11 - 08:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jan 11 - 02:14 AM
MGM·Lion 31 Jan 11 - 03:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jan 11 - 05:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Jan 11 - 05:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jan 11 - 05:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jan 11 - 05:54 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 31 Jan 11 - 01:45 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 31 Jan 11 - 03:35 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 31 Jan 11 - 03:58 PM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jan 11 - 04:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jan 11 - 05:03 PM
akenaton 31 Jan 11 - 05:04 PM
akenaton 31 Jan 11 - 05:25 PM
akenaton 31 Jan 11 - 05:40 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Jan 11 - 05:52 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 31 Jan 11 - 06:11 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Jan 11 - 06:42 PM
akenaton 31 Jan 11 - 07:03 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Jan 11 - 07:22 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 01 Feb 11 - 01:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Feb 11 - 01:44 AM
akenaton 01 Feb 11 - 03:51 AM
akenaton 01 Feb 11 - 04:44 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 01 Feb 11 - 05:12 AM
Lox 01 Feb 11 - 05:13 AM
Lox 01 Feb 11 - 05:28 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Feb 11 - 05:30 AM
GUEST,alan Whittle 01 Feb 11 - 05:48 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Feb 11 - 05:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Feb 11 - 05:53 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Feb 11 - 06:00 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 01 Feb 11 - 06:05 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Feb 11 - 06:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Feb 11 - 07:49 AM
Lox 01 Feb 11 - 08:09 AM
Lox 01 Feb 11 - 08:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Feb 11 - 08:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Feb 11 - 09:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Feb 11 - 09:43 AM
Lox 01 Feb 11 - 10:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Feb 11 - 11:04 AM
GUEST,999 01 Feb 11 - 12:06 PM
Lox 01 Feb 11 - 02:39 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Feb 11 - 03:18 PM
akenaton 01 Feb 11 - 03:54 PM
Lox 01 Feb 11 - 05:39 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Feb 11 - 06:48 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Feb 11 - 10:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Feb 11 - 11:27 PM
akenaton 02 Feb 11 - 02:37 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Feb 11 - 03:35 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Feb 11 - 04:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Feb 11 - 04:11 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Feb 11 - 04:32 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Feb 11 - 05:00 AM
Lox 02 Feb 11 - 05:06 AM
Lox 02 Feb 11 - 05:14 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Feb 11 - 05:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Feb 11 - 05:19 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Feb 11 - 05:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Feb 11 - 05:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Feb 11 - 05:47 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Feb 11 - 06:09 AM
akenaton 02 Feb 11 - 06:14 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Feb 11 - 07:52 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Feb 11 - 07:58 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Feb 11 - 08:01 AM
GUEST,Alan whittle 02 Feb 11 - 08:52 AM
Backwoodsman 02 Feb 11 - 10:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Feb 11 - 11:50 AM
Lox 02 Feb 11 - 02:14 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Feb 11 - 02:33 PM
Lox 02 Feb 11 - 02:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Feb 11 - 02:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Feb 11 - 02:53 PM
Lox 02 Feb 11 - 02:54 PM
Lox 02 Feb 11 - 02:59 PM
MGM·Lion 02 Feb 11 - 03:01 PM
Lox 02 Feb 11 - 03:03 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 02 Feb 11 - 03:22 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Feb 11 - 05:59 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Feb 11 - 02:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Feb 11 - 02:32 AM
Lox 03 Feb 11 - 04:54 AM
Lox 03 Feb 11 - 04:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Feb 11 - 05:04 AM
Lox 03 Feb 11 - 05:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Feb 11 - 05:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Feb 11 - 12:57 PM
akenaton 03 Feb 11 - 04:14 PM
Lox 03 Feb 11 - 05:03 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Feb 11 - 05:17 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Feb 11 - 06:00 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Feb 11 - 06:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Feb 11 - 06:30 PM
Stringsinger 03 Feb 11 - 06:48 PM
Lox 03 Feb 11 - 07:03 PM
Lox 03 Feb 11 - 07:28 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Feb 11 - 07:53 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Feb 11 - 12:13 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Feb 11 - 03:36 AM
Lox 04 Feb 11 - 03:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Feb 11 - 04:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Feb 11 - 04:14 AM
akenaton 04 Feb 11 - 04:36 AM
Lox 04 Feb 11 - 04:44 AM
Lox 04 Feb 11 - 04:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Feb 11 - 04:54 AM
akenaton 04 Feb 11 - 05:08 AM
Lox 04 Feb 11 - 05:10 AM
akenaton 04 Feb 11 - 05:12 AM
Lox 04 Feb 11 - 05:18 AM
Lox 04 Feb 11 - 05:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Feb 11 - 05:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Feb 11 - 05:39 AM
Lox 04 Feb 11 - 06:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Feb 11 - 07:05 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 04 Feb 11 - 07:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Feb 11 - 07:38 AM
Lox 04 Feb 11 - 07:46 AM
Lox 04 Feb 11 - 07:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Feb 11 - 08:06 AM
The Sandman 04 Feb 11 - 08:19 AM
Lox 04 Feb 11 - 08:38 AM
The Sandman 04 Feb 11 - 08:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Feb 11 - 09:00 AM
akenaton 04 Feb 11 - 10:42 AM
Lox 04 Feb 11 - 11:08 AM
akenaton 04 Feb 11 - 11:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Feb 11 - 02:43 AM
Lox 05 Feb 11 - 07:07 AM
Lox 05 Feb 11 - 08:07 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 05 Feb 11 - 08:48 AM
Lox 05 Feb 11 - 09:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Feb 11 - 09:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Feb 11 - 09:42 AM
Lox 05 Feb 11 - 09:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Feb 11 - 10:03 AM
Lox 05 Feb 11 - 10:29 AM
Lox 05 Feb 11 - 10:32 AM
Lox 05 Feb 11 - 10:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Feb 11 - 10:37 AM
Lox 05 Feb 11 - 11:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Feb 11 - 11:18 AM
Lox 05 Feb 11 - 11:31 AM
Lox 05 Feb 11 - 11:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Feb 11 - 11:47 AM
Lox 05 Feb 11 - 11:49 AM
GUEST,999 05 Feb 11 - 11:49 AM
Lox 05 Feb 11 - 11:52 AM
Lox 05 Feb 11 - 12:39 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Feb 11 - 01:05 PM
Lox 05 Feb 11 - 02:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Feb 11 - 02:34 PM
akenaton 05 Feb 11 - 04:14 PM
Lox 05 Feb 11 - 08:14 PM
Lox 05 Feb 11 - 08:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Feb 11 - 03:20 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 06 Feb 11 - 04:44 AM
Brian May 06 Feb 11 - 05:08 AM
Lox 06 Feb 11 - 07:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Feb 11 - 07:47 AM
Lox 06 Feb 11 - 07:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Feb 11 - 07:59 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 06 Feb 11 - 08:31 AM
Lox 06 Feb 11 - 08:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Feb 11 - 09:48 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Feb 11 - 10:19 AM
Lox 06 Feb 11 - 10:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Feb 11 - 11:21 AM
Lox 06 Feb 11 - 11:31 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Feb 11 - 11:34 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Feb 11 - 11:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Feb 11 - 11:52 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Feb 11 - 03:37 PM
akenaton 06 Feb 11 - 04:01 PM
GUEST,999 06 Feb 11 - 04:06 PM
Dave the Gnome 06 Feb 11 - 04:26 PM
GUEST,999 06 Feb 11 - 04:29 PM
GUEST,999 06 Feb 11 - 04:47 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Feb 11 - 05:15 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Feb 11 - 05:39 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Feb 11 - 05:50 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Feb 11 - 06:10 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Feb 11 - 06:19 PM
JohnDun 06 Feb 11 - 08:27 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 11 - 01:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 11 - 03:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 11 - 04:53 AM
Brian May 07 Feb 11 - 07:43 AM
Lox 07 Feb 11 - 12:19 PM
Lox 07 Feb 11 - 12:26 PM
MGM·Lion 07 Feb 11 - 12:42 PM
Lox 07 Feb 11 - 01:11 PM
MGM·Lion 07 Feb 11 - 01:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 11 - 04:14 PM
Lox 07 Feb 11 - 05:14 PM
josepp 07 Feb 11 - 06:03 PM
josepp 07 Feb 11 - 06:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 11 - 06:23 PM
Lox 07 Feb 11 - 07:02 PM
josepp 07 Feb 11 - 07:06 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Feb 11 - 07:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 11 - 02:06 AM
Backwoodsman 08 Feb 11 - 04:32 AM
Backwoodsman 08 Feb 11 - 04:35 AM
The Sandman 08 Feb 11 - 12:54 PM
GUEST,999 08 Feb 11 - 01:37 PM
Lox 08 Feb 11 - 02:20 PM
GUEST,999 08 Feb 11 - 02:55 PM
Lox 08 Feb 11 - 03:13 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Feb 11 - 03:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 11 - 03:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 11 - 03:51 PM
Dave the Gnome 08 Feb 11 - 04:22 PM
Dave the Gnome 08 Feb 11 - 04:30 PM
The Sandman 08 Feb 11 - 04:57 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 11 - 05:09 PM
Stringsinger 08 Feb 11 - 05:29 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Feb 11 - 06:00 PM
The Sandman 08 Feb 11 - 06:06 PM
akenaton 08 Feb 11 - 06:49 PM
akenaton 08 Feb 11 - 06:58 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Feb 11 - 08:21 PM
MGM·Lion 08 Feb 11 - 11:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Feb 11 - 04:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Feb 11 - 04:05 AM
The Sandman 09 Feb 11 - 07:35 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Feb 11 - 08:57 AM
The Sandman 09 Feb 11 - 09:14 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Feb 11 - 09:33 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Feb 11 - 09:41 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Feb 11 - 09:58 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Feb 11 - 10:46 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Feb 11 - 10:54 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Feb 11 - 11:03 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Feb 11 - 11:19 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Feb 11 - 11:35 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Feb 11 - 12:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Feb 11 - 01:45 PM
Dave the Gnome 09 Feb 11 - 01:53 PM
akenaton 09 Feb 11 - 03:44 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 09 Feb 11 - 05:01 PM
GUEST,999 09 Feb 11 - 05:46 PM
Lox 09 Feb 11 - 05:53 PM
Lox 09 Feb 11 - 05:55 PM
GUEST,999 09 Feb 11 - 05:57 PM
Lox 09 Feb 11 - 05:59 PM
GUEST,999 09 Feb 11 - 06:00 PM
GUEST,999 09 Feb 11 - 06:10 PM
Lox 09 Feb 11 - 06:19 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Feb 11 - 06:53 PM
MGM·Lion 09 Feb 11 - 11:10 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Feb 11 - 02:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Feb 11 - 02:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Feb 11 - 03:28 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittlw 10 Feb 11 - 04:34 AM
MGM·Lion 10 Feb 11 - 04:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Feb 11 - 05:16 AM
Lox 10 Feb 11 - 05:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Feb 11 - 05:21 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Feb 11 - 02:28 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Feb 11 - 02:44 PM
The Sandman 10 Feb 11 - 02:46 PM
Lox 10 Feb 11 - 03:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Feb 11 - 04:02 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Feb 11 - 04:13 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Feb 11 - 04:35 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Feb 11 - 04:59 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Feb 11 - 05:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Feb 11 - 05:33 PM
Lox 10 Feb 11 - 05:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 11 - 02:05 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 11 Feb 11 - 04:15 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 11 Feb 11 - 04:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 11 - 05:22 AM
GUEST,Alan whittle 11 Feb 11 - 06:29 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 11 Feb 11 - 06:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 11 - 07:22 AM
Backwoodsman 11 Feb 11 - 07:41 AM
Backwoodsman 11 Feb 11 - 07:46 AM
Brian May 11 Feb 11 - 08:33 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 11 Feb 11 - 10:53 AM
Brian May 11 Feb 11 - 11:00 AM
Lox 11 Feb 11 - 11:18 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 11 Feb 11 - 12:21 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Feb 11 - 01:42 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Feb 11 - 02:03 PM
Brian May 11 Feb 11 - 02:45 PM
GUEST 11 Feb 11 - 04:07 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 11 Feb 11 - 04:08 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Feb 11 - 04:28 PM
akenaton 11 Feb 11 - 04:46 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 11 Feb 11 - 05:09 PM
GUEST,999 11 Feb 11 - 05:15 PM
Lox 11 Feb 11 - 08:55 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Feb 11 - 08:59 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Feb 11 - 09:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Feb 11 - 10:36 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 12 Feb 11 - 01:57 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 12 Feb 11 - 02:00 PM
GUEST,999 12 Feb 11 - 02:11 PM
Dorothy Parshall 12 Feb 11 - 02:16 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 12 Feb 11 - 02:18 PM
Brian May 12 Feb 11 - 02:45 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Feb 11 - 06:53 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Feb 11 - 07:52 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 13 Feb 11 - 04:11 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 13 Feb 11 - 04:30 AM
Brian May 13 Feb 11 - 06:09 AM
Lox 13 Feb 11 - 06:29 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 13 Feb 11 - 06:39 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 13 Feb 11 - 06:50 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Feb 11 - 06:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Feb 11 - 07:10 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 13 Feb 11 - 07:50 AM
3refs 13 Feb 11 - 08:15 AM
Lox 13 Feb 11 - 09:12 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 13 Feb 11 - 09:58 AM
Lox 13 Feb 11 - 10:03 AM
Brian May 13 Feb 11 - 10:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Feb 11 - 01:20 PM
Lox 13 Feb 11 - 01:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Feb 11 - 02:11 PM
Lox 13 Feb 11 - 02:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Feb 11 - 02:48 PM
akenaton 13 Feb 11 - 03:31 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 13 Feb 11 - 03:40 PM
Lox 13 Feb 11 - 03:58 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Feb 11 - 04:29 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 13 Feb 11 - 04:30 PM
Greg F. 13 Feb 11 - 04:38 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 13 Feb 11 - 04:41 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Feb 11 - 04:43 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 13 Feb 11 - 04:58 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 13 Feb 11 - 05:00 PM
Lox 13 Feb 11 - 05:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Feb 11 - 05:11 PM
Lox 13 Feb 11 - 05:24 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 13 Feb 11 - 06:14 PM
Greg F. 13 Feb 11 - 06:22 PM
Lox 13 Feb 11 - 06:50 PM
Lox 13 Feb 11 - 07:08 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 13 Feb 11 - 08:19 PM
MGM·Lion 13 Feb 11 - 10:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Feb 11 - 01:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Feb 11 - 01:41 AM
GUEST 14 Feb 11 - 04:09 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 14 Feb 11 - 04:36 AM
Lox 14 Feb 11 - 04:42 AM
cobra 14 Feb 11 - 05:15 AM
cobra 14 Feb 11 - 05:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Feb 11 - 05:39 AM
Lox 14 Feb 11 - 05:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Feb 11 - 06:00 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Feb 11 - 09:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Feb 11 - 10:27 AM
MGM·Lion 14 Feb 11 - 10:45 AM
Brian May 14 Feb 11 - 01:21 PM
akenaton 14 Feb 11 - 04:12 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Feb 11 - 06:36 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Feb 11 - 06:47 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Feb 11 - 06:50 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Feb 11 - 11:54 PM
MGM·Lion 15 Feb 11 - 12:00 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Feb 11 - 12:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Feb 11 - 04:31 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Feb 11 - 04:48 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Feb 11 - 09:38 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Feb 11 - 11:33 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Feb 11 - 12:04 PM
MGM·Lion 15 Feb 11 - 12:29 PM
Stringsinger 15 Feb 11 - 12:33 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Feb 11 - 12:36 PM
Greg F. 15 Feb 11 - 12:55 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Feb 11 - 01:20 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Feb 11 - 03:12 PM
akenaton 15 Feb 11 - 03:20 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Feb 11 - 03:41 PM
akenaton 15 Feb 11 - 04:02 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Feb 11 - 04:02 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Feb 11 - 04:14 PM
ollaimh 15 Feb 11 - 08:01 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Feb 11 - 08:07 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Feb 11 - 08:13 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Feb 11 - 10:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Feb 11 - 01:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Feb 11 - 02:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Feb 11 - 04:04 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Feb 11 - 04:49 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Feb 11 - 05:09 AM
GUEST 16 Feb 11 - 05:28 AM
GUEST,Jon 16 Feb 11 - 05:30 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Feb 11 - 05:59 AM
GUEST,Jon 16 Feb 11 - 06:13 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Feb 11 - 06:20 AM
GUEST,Jon 16 Feb 11 - 06:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Feb 11 - 06:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Feb 11 - 06:43 AM
The Sandman 16 Feb 11 - 07:03 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Feb 11 - 07:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Feb 11 - 08:01 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Feb 11 - 09:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Feb 11 - 12:01 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 16 Feb 11 - 12:06 PM
ollaimh 16 Feb 11 - 12:35 PM
ollaimh 16 Feb 11 - 12:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Feb 11 - 01:19 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Feb 11 - 02:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Feb 11 - 04:22 PM
Lox 16 Feb 11 - 05:29 PM
akenaton 16 Feb 11 - 05:43 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Feb 11 - 07:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Feb 11 - 02:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Feb 11 - 02:59 AM
GUEST,alan Whittle 17 Feb 11 - 03:30 AM
Lara Logan 17 Feb 11 - 06:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Feb 11 - 06:27 AM
MGM·Lion 17 Feb 11 - 07:26 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Feb 11 - 08:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Feb 11 - 08:12 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Feb 11 - 02:44 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Feb 11 - 02:47 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Feb 11 - 02:57 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Feb 11 - 03:14 PM
akenaton 17 Feb 11 - 04:52 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 Feb 11 - 05:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Feb 11 - 01:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Feb 11 - 10:03 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Feb 11 - 10:26 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Feb 11 - 10:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Feb 11 - 10:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Feb 11 - 11:28 AM
Lox 18 Feb 11 - 11:31 AM
Lox 18 Feb 11 - 11:43 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 18 Feb 11 - 12:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Feb 11 - 01:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Feb 11 - 01:06 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 18 Feb 11 - 02:02 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Feb 11 - 03:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Feb 11 - 04:01 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Feb 11 - 05:16 PM
GUEST 18 Feb 11 - 08:38 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 18 Feb 11 - 08:39 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Feb 11 - 09:37 AM
akenaton 19 Feb 11 - 12:24 PM
Lox 19 Feb 11 - 06:16 PM
Lox 19 Feb 11 - 06:22 PM
GUEST,Guest grom Sanity 19 Feb 11 - 10:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Feb 11 - 03:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Feb 11 - 07:30 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Feb 11 - 11:29 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Feb 11 - 12:43 PM
Lox 20 Feb 11 - 02:23 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Feb 11 - 02:32 PM
Lox 20 Feb 11 - 02:41 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Feb 11 - 02:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Feb 11 - 03:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Feb 11 - 03:05 PM
Lox 20 Feb 11 - 03:09 PM
Lox 20 Feb 11 - 03:17 PM
Lox 20 Feb 11 - 03:29 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Feb 11 - 03:38 PM
akenaton 20 Feb 11 - 04:47 PM
GUEST 20 Feb 11 - 06:34 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Feb 11 - 06:36 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Feb 11 - 02:16 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Feb 11 - 02:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Feb 11 - 04:03 AM
Lox 21 Feb 11 - 04:22 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Feb 11 - 04:23 AM
Lox 21 Feb 11 - 04:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Feb 11 - 04:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Feb 11 - 04:30 AM
ollaimh 21 Feb 11 - 02:13 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Feb 11 - 02:38 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Feb 11 - 06:26 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 22 Feb 11 - 02:28 AM
MGM·Lion 22 Feb 11 - 02:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Feb 11 - 06:40 AM
Lox 22 Feb 11 - 10:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Feb 11 - 10:38 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Feb 11 - 11:14 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Feb 11 - 11:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Feb 11 - 11:45 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 22 Feb 11 - 12:46 PM
ollaimh 22 Feb 11 - 05:19 PM
Lox 22 Feb 11 - 05:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Feb 11 - 07:02 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Feb 11 - 07:53 PM
akenaton 23 Feb 11 - 02:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Feb 11 - 03:28 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Feb 11 - 03:34 AM
Lox 23 Feb 11 - 04:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Feb 11 - 04:49 AM
Lox 23 Feb 11 - 04:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Feb 11 - 05:54 AM
Lox 23 Feb 11 - 08:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Feb 11 - 10:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Feb 11 - 03:52 PM
Lox 23 Feb 11 - 05:05 PM
Lox 23 Feb 11 - 05:10 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Feb 11 - 05:13 PM
Lox 23 Feb 11 - 05:21 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Feb 11 - 06:02 PM
Lox 23 Feb 11 - 06:27 PM
cobra 23 Feb 11 - 07:28 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Feb 11 - 01:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Feb 11 - 01:57 AM
akenaton 24 Feb 11 - 03:07 AM
akenaton 24 Feb 11 - 03:17 AM
cobra 24 Feb 11 - 04:19 AM
Lox 24 Feb 11 - 05:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Feb 11 - 05:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Feb 11 - 06:01 AM
cobra 24 Feb 11 - 06:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Feb 11 - 07:33 AM
cobra 24 Feb 11 - 07:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Feb 11 - 11:47 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Feb 11 - 12:19 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Feb 11 - 01:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Feb 11 - 01:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Feb 11 - 01:10 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Feb 11 - 02:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Feb 11 - 02:49 PM
Lox 24 Feb 11 - 02:53 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Feb 11 - 03:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Feb 11 - 03:53 PM
Lox 24 Feb 11 - 04:19 PM
GUEST 24 Feb 11 - 04:57 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Feb 11 - 04:58 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Feb 11 - 05:06 PM
Lox 24 Feb 11 - 05:08 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Feb 11 - 05:12 PM
Lox 24 Feb 11 - 06:41 PM
MGM·Lion 24 Feb 11 - 10:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Feb 11 - 03:02 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Feb 11 - 04:21 AM
GUEST,WyoWoman 25 Feb 11 - 04:23 AM
cobra 25 Feb 11 - 05:01 AM
cobra 25 Feb 11 - 05:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Feb 11 - 05:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Feb 11 - 05:58 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Feb 11 - 06:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Feb 11 - 06:49 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Feb 11 - 07:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Feb 11 - 08:16 AM
Lox 25 Feb 11 - 08:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Feb 11 - 08:22 AM
Lox 25 Feb 11 - 08:23 AM
Lox 25 Feb 11 - 08:28 AM
Lox 25 Feb 11 - 08:55 AM
Lox 25 Feb 11 - 09:02 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Feb 11 - 09:47 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Feb 11 - 09:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Feb 11 - 10:28 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Feb 11 - 12:24 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Feb 11 - 12:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Feb 11 - 12:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Feb 11 - 01:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Feb 11 - 01:22 PM
Lox 25 Feb 11 - 01:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Feb 11 - 02:29 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Feb 11 - 02:42 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Feb 11 - 03:02 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Feb 11 - 03:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Feb 11 - 03:14 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Feb 11 - 03:24 PM
Lox 25 Feb 11 - 03:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Feb 11 - 04:05 PM
Lox 25 Feb 11 - 06:10 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Feb 11 - 06:25 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Feb 11 - 06:47 PM
cobra 25 Feb 11 - 07:36 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Feb 11 - 07:37 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Feb 11 - 08:23 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Feb 11 - 10:36 PM
MGM·Lion 26 Feb 11 - 12:12 AM
MGM·Lion 26 Feb 11 - 12:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Feb 11 - 09:39 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Feb 11 - 10:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Feb 11 - 10:38 AM
cobra 26 Feb 11 - 11:19 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Feb 11 - 11:31 AM
cobra 26 Feb 11 - 11:43 AM
MGM·Lion 26 Feb 11 - 11:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Feb 11 - 11:53 AM
MGM·Lion 26 Feb 11 - 12:02 PM
cobra 26 Feb 11 - 12:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Feb 11 - 12:42 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Feb 11 - 01:16 PM
cobra 26 Feb 11 - 01:23 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Feb 11 - 02:00 PM
MGM·Lion 26 Feb 11 - 02:27 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Feb 11 - 02:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Feb 11 - 02:36 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Feb 11 - 02:43 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Feb 11 - 03:36 PM
MGM·Lion 26 Feb 11 - 03:54 PM
Jeri 26 Feb 11 - 04:02 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Feb 11 - 04:21 PM
cobra 26 Feb 11 - 04:37 PM
cobra 26 Feb 11 - 04:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Feb 11 - 05:28 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Feb 11 - 08:04 PM
MGM·Lion 27 Feb 11 - 01:19 AM
Backwoodsman 27 Feb 11 - 01:41 AM
Backwoodsman 27 Feb 11 - 02:46 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Feb 11 - 03:25 AM
MGM·Lion 27 Feb 11 - 03:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 11 - 03:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 11 - 04:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 11 - 04:55 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Feb 11 - 05:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 11 - 05:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 11 - 05:14 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Feb 11 - 05:41 AM
Lox 27 Feb 11 - 05:51 AM
cobra 27 Feb 11 - 06:02 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Feb 11 - 06:56 AM
MGM·Lion 27 Feb 11 - 06:56 AM
Lox 27 Feb 11 - 07:01 AM
akenaton 27 Feb 11 - 07:05 AM
cobra 27 Feb 11 - 07:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 11 - 07:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 11 - 07:46 AM
cobra 27 Feb 11 - 08:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 11 - 08:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 11 - 08:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 11 - 09:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 11 - 09:15 AM
Lox 27 Feb 11 - 09:18 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Feb 11 - 09:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 11 - 09:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 11 - 09:30 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Feb 11 - 10:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 11 - 11:18 AM
cobra 27 Feb 11 - 11:52 AM
cobra 27 Feb 11 - 11:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 11 - 12:01 PM
Lox 27 Feb 11 - 12:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 11 - 12:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 11 - 12:16 PM
Lox 27 Feb 11 - 12:19 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 11 - 12:40 PM
Dessert Dancer 27 Feb 11 - 12:50 PM
cobra 27 Feb 11 - 12:58 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 11 - 01:02 PM
cobra 27 Feb 11 - 01:05 PM
cobra 27 Feb 11 - 01:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 11 - 01:11 PM
cobra 27 Feb 11 - 01:13 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Feb 11 - 01:14 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 11 - 01:45 PM
cobra 27 Feb 11 - 01:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 11 - 01:56 PM
cobra 27 Feb 11 - 02:20 PM
cobra 27 Feb 11 - 02:23 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 11 - 02:37 PM
MGM·Lion 27 Feb 11 - 03:25 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Feb 11 - 03:33 PM
cobra 27 Feb 11 - 03:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 11 - 03:55 PM
cobra 27 Feb 11 - 04:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 11 - 04:09 PM
Lox 27 Feb 11 - 04:43 PM
Lox 27 Feb 11 - 04:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 11 - 05:39 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Feb 11 - 08:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Feb 11 - 01:19 AM
MGM·Lion 28 Feb 11 - 01:27 AM
MGM·Lion 28 Feb 11 - 01:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Feb 11 - 02:08 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Feb 11 - 04:29 AM
Lox 28 Feb 11 - 04:39 AM
GUEST,Jon 28 Feb 11 - 04:47 AM
MGM·Lion 28 Feb 11 - 05:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Feb 11 - 05:22 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Feb 11 - 06:15 AM
MGM·Lion 28 Feb 11 - 06:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Feb 11 - 07:49 AM
Lox 28 Feb 11 - 11:20 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Feb 11 - 12:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Feb 11 - 03:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Feb 11 - 03:49 PM
Lox 28 Feb 11 - 06:28 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Mar 11 - 01:35 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Mar 11 - 03:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Mar 11 - 03:34 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Mar 11 - 03:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Mar 11 - 04:18 AM
Lox 01 Mar 11 - 04:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Mar 11 - 04:58 AM
Lox 01 Mar 11 - 05:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Mar 11 - 06:07 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Mar 11 - 07:07 AM
akenaton 01 Mar 11 - 07:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Mar 11 - 07:50 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Mar 11 - 08:46 AM
Lox 01 Mar 11 - 08:55 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Mar 11 - 08:59 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 01 Mar 11 - 09:25 AM
Lox 01 Mar 11 - 09:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Mar 11 - 10:14 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Mar 11 - 11:23 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Mar 11 - 01:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Mar 11 - 01:19 PM
akenaton 01 Mar 11 - 02:15 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Mar 11 - 02:31 PM
akenaton 01 Mar 11 - 02:43 PM
Brian May 01 Mar 11 - 03:24 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Mar 11 - 05:24 PM
Lox 01 Mar 11 - 05:52 PM
Lox 01 Mar 11 - 06:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Mar 11 - 01:17 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Mar 11 - 03:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Mar 11 - 04:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Mar 11 - 04:16 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Mar 11 - 04:55 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Mar 11 - 05:08 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Mar 11 - 05:44 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Mar 11 - 05:58 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Mar 11 - 06:26 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Mar 11 - 06:41 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Mar 11 - 06:48 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Mar 11 - 06:56 AM
Lox 02 Mar 11 - 08:42 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Mar 11 - 10:55 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Mar 11 - 11:01 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Mar 11 - 11:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Mar 11 - 01:28 PM
Brian May 02 Mar 11 - 01:55 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Mar 11 - 03:35 PM
akenaton 02 Mar 11 - 05:10 PM
Lox 02 Mar 11 - 05:37 PM
Brian May 02 Mar 11 - 05:38 PM
Greg F. 02 Mar 11 - 05:59 PM
GUEST,Jon 02 Mar 11 - 11:15 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Mar 11 - 01:16 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Mar 11 - 01:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Mar 11 - 01:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Mar 11 - 01:46 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Mar 11 - 03:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Mar 11 - 03:19 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Mar 11 - 03:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Mar 11 - 03:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Mar 11 - 04:51 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Mar 11 - 05:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Mar 11 - 05:24 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Mar 11 - 05:39 AM
cobra 03 Mar 11 - 05:51 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Mar 11 - 06:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Mar 11 - 06:08 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Mar 11 - 06:50 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Mar 11 - 06:56 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Mar 11 - 07:30 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Mar 11 - 08:08 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Mar 11 - 08:13 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Mar 11 - 11:09 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Mar 11 - 11:24 AM
Brian May 03 Mar 11 - 11:40 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Mar 11 - 03:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Mar 11 - 03:55 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Mar 11 - 05:23 PM
Lox 03 Mar 11 - 05:24 PM
Lox 03 Mar 11 - 05:35 PM
Lox 03 Mar 11 - 05:41 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Mar 11 - 05:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Mar 11 - 05:49 PM
Lox 03 Mar 11 - 06:19 PM
Lox 03 Mar 11 - 06:26 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Mar 11 - 07:54 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Mar 11 - 08:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 11 - 01:26 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Mar 11 - 02:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 11 - 03:21 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Mar 11 - 04:22 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Mar 11 - 05:15 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Mar 11 - 05:20 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Mar 11 - 05:21 AM
Lox 04 Mar 11 - 05:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 11 - 06:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 11 - 06:36 AM
Lox 04 Mar 11 - 07:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 11 - 07:12 AM
Lox 04 Mar 11 - 07:14 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Mar 11 - 07:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 11 - 07:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 11 - 07:53 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Mar 11 - 07:54 AM
Lox 04 Mar 11 - 08:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 11 - 08:17 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Mar 11 - 08:20 AM
Lox 04 Mar 11 - 08:32 AM
Lox 04 Mar 11 - 08:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 11 - 08:43 AM
GUEST,lively 04 Mar 11 - 09:01 AM
Lox 04 Mar 11 - 09:30 AM
Lox 04 Mar 11 - 09:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 11 - 09:36 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Mar 11 - 09:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 11 - 09:49 AM
cobra 04 Mar 11 - 09:57 AM
cobra 04 Mar 11 - 10:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 11 - 10:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 11 - 10:20 AM
GUEST,lively 04 Mar 11 - 10:24 AM
cobra 04 Mar 11 - 10:29 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Mar 11 - 10:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 11 - 10:37 AM
cobra 04 Mar 11 - 10:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 11 - 11:26 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Mar 11 - 11:32 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Mar 11 - 11:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 11 - 12:17 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Mar 11 - 12:43 PM
MGM·Lion 04 Mar 11 - 12:57 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 11 - 01:27 PM
Dave the Gnome 04 Mar 11 - 02:15 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Mar 11 - 02:49 PM
Lox 04 Mar 11 - 03:24 PM
Lox 04 Mar 11 - 03:41 PM
MGM·Lion 04 Mar 11 - 04:31 PM
Lox 04 Mar 11 - 06:32 PM
Lox 04 Mar 11 - 08:24 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Mar 11 - 02:43 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Mar 11 - 03:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Mar 11 - 04:37 AM
GUEST,lively 05 Mar 11 - 04:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Mar 11 - 05:11 AM
Lox 05 Mar 11 - 05:54 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 Mar 11 - 06:20 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 Mar 11 - 06:26 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 Mar 11 - 06:58 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Mar 11 - 07:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Mar 11 - 08:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Mar 11 - 08:08 AM
Lox 05 Mar 11 - 08:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Mar 11 - 08:52 AM
Lox 05 Mar 11 - 09:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Mar 11 - 10:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Mar 11 - 11:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Mar 11 - 11:47 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Mar 11 - 11:49 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Mar 11 - 12:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Mar 11 - 12:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Mar 11 - 12:20 PM
Lox 05 Mar 11 - 12:38 PM
Lox 05 Mar 11 - 12:56 PM
Lox 05 Mar 11 - 01:02 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Mar 11 - 01:10 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Mar 11 - 01:15 PM
GUEST,lively 05 Mar 11 - 01:31 PM
Stringsinger 05 Mar 11 - 01:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Mar 11 - 02:10 PM
Smedley 05 Mar 11 - 02:11 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Mar 11 - 03:19 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Mar 11 - 03:42 PM
Lox 05 Mar 11 - 04:17 PM
GUEST,lively 05 Mar 11 - 04:35 PM
akenaton 05 Mar 11 - 04:39 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Mar 11 - 05:36 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Mar 11 - 06:21 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Mar 11 - 06:38 PM
Lox 05 Mar 11 - 06:46 PM
Lox 05 Mar 11 - 06:49 PM
Lox 05 Mar 11 - 06:51 PM
Lox 05 Mar 11 - 07:23 PM
MGM·Lion 06 Mar 11 - 12:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Mar 11 - 02:53 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Mar 11 - 03:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Mar 11 - 03:23 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Mar 11 - 04:14 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Mar 11 - 04:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Mar 11 - 06:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Mar 11 - 06:40 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Mar 11 - 02:40 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Mar 11 - 02:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Mar 11 - 05:13 PM
Stringsinger 06 Mar 11 - 05:39 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Mar 11 - 06:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Mar 11 - 06:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Mar 11 - 06:54 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 11 - 04:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Mar 11 - 04:46 AM
cobra 07 Mar 11 - 05:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Mar 11 - 05:19 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 11 - 05:44 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Mar 11 - 05:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Mar 11 - 06:02 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 11 - 07:05 AM
GUEST,lively 07 Mar 11 - 08:32 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Mar 11 - 11:43 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Mar 11 - 11:50 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 11 - 12:13 PM
MGM·Lion 07 Mar 11 - 01:59 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 11 - 02:48 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Mar 11 - 03:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Mar 11 - 03:14 PM
GUEST 07 Mar 11 - 04:44 PM
Stringsinger 07 Mar 11 - 05:36 PM
Stringsinger 07 Mar 11 - 05:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Mar 11 - 01:20 AM
GUEST,lively 08 Mar 11 - 02:50 AM
GUEST,lively 08 Mar 11 - 02:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Mar 11 - 03:13 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Mar 11 - 03:24 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Mar 11 - 04:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Mar 11 - 04:17 AM
GUEST,lively 08 Mar 11 - 04:40 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Mar 11 - 04:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Mar 11 - 05:52 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Mar 11 - 05:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Mar 11 - 06:06 AM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 08 Mar 11 - 07:27 AM
Brian May 08 Mar 11 - 07:53 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Mar 11 - 08:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Mar 11 - 09:12 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Mar 11 - 11:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Mar 11 - 11:45 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Mar 11 - 01:05 PM
MGM·Lion 08 Mar 11 - 01:15 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Mar 11 - 02:02 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Mar 11 - 02:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Mar 11 - 02:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Mar 11 - 03:29 PM
MGM·Lion 08 Mar 11 - 03:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Mar 11 - 05:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Mar 11 - 05:31 PM
GUEST,lively 09 Mar 11 - 02:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Mar 11 - 03:24 AM
GUEST,lively 09 Mar 11 - 03:31 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Mar 11 - 03:34 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Mar 11 - 03:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Mar 11 - 04:17 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Mar 11 - 04:42 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Mar 11 - 04:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Mar 11 - 05:33 AM
akenaton 09 Mar 11 - 05:38 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Mar 11 - 05:49 AM
GUEST,lively 09 Mar 11 - 05:57 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Mar 11 - 06:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Mar 11 - 06:08 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Mar 11 - 06:33 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Mar 11 - 07:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Mar 11 - 07:58 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Mar 11 - 08:33 AM
GUEST,lively 09 Mar 11 - 08:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Mar 11 - 08:58 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Mar 11 - 11:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Mar 11 - 11:26 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Mar 11 - 11:50 AM
GUEST,lively 09 Mar 11 - 12:29 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Mar 11 - 01:35 PM
akenaton 09 Mar 11 - 01:55 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Mar 11 - 02:16 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Mar 11 - 02:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Mar 11 - 02:36 PM
GUEST,lively 09 Mar 11 - 02:51 PM
akenaton 09 Mar 11 - 02:59 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Mar 11 - 03:06 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Mar 11 - 03:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Mar 11 - 03:28 PM
GUEST,lively 09 Mar 11 - 03:28 PM
GUEST,lively 09 Mar 11 - 03:35 PM
GUEST,lively 09 Mar 11 - 03:54 PM
akenaton 09 Mar 11 - 04:37 PM
GUEST,lively 09 Mar 11 - 04:48 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Mar 11 - 05:53 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Mar 11 - 06:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 11 - 12:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 11 - 01:52 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Mar 11 - 03:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 11 - 03:40 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Mar 11 - 04:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 11 - 04:16 AM
akenaton 10 Mar 11 - 04:40 AM
MGM·Lion 10 Mar 11 - 04:52 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Mar 11 - 05:05 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Mar 11 - 05:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 11 - 05:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 11 - 05:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 11 - 05:23 AM
akenaton 10 Mar 11 - 05:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 11 - 05:27 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Mar 11 - 07:29 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Mar 11 - 08:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 11 - 08:39 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Mar 11 - 08:52 AM
GUEST,lively 10 Mar 11 - 09:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 11 - 10:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 11 - 10:36 AM
MGM·Lion 10 Mar 11 - 10:59 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Mar 11 - 11:00 AM
GUEST,lively 10 Mar 11 - 11:01 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Mar 11 - 11:03 AM
MGM·Lion 10 Mar 11 - 11:05 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Mar 11 - 11:10 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Mar 11 - 11:12 AM
MGM·Lion 10 Mar 11 - 11:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 11 - 11:47 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Mar 11 - 11:55 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Mar 11 - 11:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 11 - 12:03 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Mar 11 - 12:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 11 - 12:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 11 - 12:48 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Mar 11 - 01:12 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Mar 11 - 01:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 11 - 02:41 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 11 - 03:28 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Mar 11 - 03:37 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Mar 11 - 03:41 PM
MGM·Lion 10 Mar 11 - 04:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 11 - 04:33 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 11 - 04:48 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Mar 11 - 05:48 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Mar 11 - 06:57 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Mar 11 - 08:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Mar 11 - 01:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Mar 11 - 01:02 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Mar 11 - 03:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Mar 11 - 04:13 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Mar 11 - 05:34 AM
GUEST,Keith A 11 Mar 11 - 07:11 AM
GUEST,Keith A 11 Mar 11 - 07:33 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Mar 11 - 07:47 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Mar 11 - 08:01 AM
GUEST,Keith 11 Mar 11 - 08:15 AM
MGM·Lion 11 Mar 11 - 08:16 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Mar 11 - 09:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Mar 11 - 12:06 PM
Nick 11 Mar 11 - 12:52 PM
ollaimh 11 Mar 11 - 01:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Mar 11 - 02:44 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Mar 11 - 09:09 PM
MGM·Lion 11 Mar 11 - 11:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 11 - 01:49 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Mar 11 - 05:50 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Mar 11 - 06:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 11 - 07:25 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Mar 11 - 07:29 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Mar 11 - 07:36 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Mar 11 - 07:39 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Mar 11 - 07:41 AM
MGM·Lion 12 Mar 11 - 07:52 AM
MGM·Lion 12 Mar 11 - 08:03 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Mar 11 - 08:05 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Mar 11 - 08:09 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Mar 11 - 08:13 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Mar 11 - 08:16 AM
MGM·Lion 12 Mar 11 - 08:24 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Mar 11 - 09:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 11 - 09:22 AM
MGM·Lion 12 Mar 11 - 09:32 AM
MGM·Lion 12 Mar 11 - 09:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 11 - 09:52 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Mar 11 - 10:12 AM
MGM·Lion 12 Mar 11 - 10:32 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Mar 11 - 10:39 AM
MGM·Lion 12 Mar 11 - 10:48 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Mar 11 - 10:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 11 - 12:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 11 - 12:13 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Mar 11 - 12:13 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Mar 11 - 12:28 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Mar 11 - 12:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 11 - 12:58 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Mar 11 - 02:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 11 - 02:54 PM
GUEST,lively 12 Mar 11 - 03:06 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Mar 11 - 03:19 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Mar 11 - 03:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 11 - 03:45 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Mar 11 - 10:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Mar 11 - 11:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 11 - 05:23 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 11 - 06:26 AM
GUEST,lively 15 Mar 11 - 06:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 11 - 06:40 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 11 - 07:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 11 - 07:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 11 - 08:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 11 - 10:55 AM
Stringsinger 15 Mar 11 - 01:22 PM
akenaton 15 Mar 11 - 05:47 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Mar 11 - 08:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 11 - 02:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 11 - 02:35 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Mar 11 - 04:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 11 - 04:10 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Mar 11 - 05:55 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Mar 11 - 06:00 AM
akenaton 16 Mar 11 - 07:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Mar 11 - 03:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Mar 11 - 04:34 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Mar 11 - 09:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Mar 11 - 09:14 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Mar 11 - 09:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Mar 11 - 12:36 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Mar 11 - 12:58 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Mar 11 - 01:58 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Mar 11 - 02:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Mar 11 - 03:14 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Mar 11 - 02:59 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Mar 11 - 07:53 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Mar 11 - 08:08 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Mar 11 - 09:46 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Mar 11 - 10:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Mar 11 - 12:01 PM
MGM·Lion 18 Mar 11 - 03:20 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Mar 11 - 11:26 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Mar 11 - 11:40 AM
Stringsinger 19 Mar 11 - 01:57 PM
Dave the Gnome 19 Mar 11 - 03:11 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Mar 11 - 03:52 AM
Lox 20 Mar 11 - 08:14 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Mar 11 - 09:09 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Mar 11 - 02:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Mar 11 - 02:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Mar 11 - 02:14 PM
Lox 20 Mar 11 - 02:51 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Mar 11 - 03:29 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Mar 11 - 04:32 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Mar 11 - 04:32 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Mar 11 - 04:36 PM
MGM·Lion 20 Mar 11 - 05:39 PM
Lox 20 Mar 11 - 07:38 PM
MGM·Lion 21 Mar 11 - 12:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 11 - 02:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 11 - 02:50 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 11 - 04:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 11 - 05:35 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 11 - 06:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 11 - 06:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 11 - 06:28 AM
MGM·Lion 21 Mar 11 - 06:43 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 11 - 07:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 11 - 07:38 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Mar 11 - 08:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 11 - 08:26 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 11 - 08:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 11 - 08:46 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Mar 11 - 09:15 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Mar 11 - 09:32 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Mar 11 - 09:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 11 - 11:21 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 11 - 12:33 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 11 - 12:34 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 11 - 12:36 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 11 - 12:38 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 11 - 12:38 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 11 - 12:41 PM
MGM·Lion 21 Mar 11 - 01:10 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 11 - 02:46 PM
MGM·Lion 21 Mar 11 - 03:30 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 11 - 03:54 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 11 - 04:05 PM
GUEST 21 Mar 11 - 04:07 PM
Lox 21 Mar 11 - 04:08 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 11 - 04:35 PM
Lox 21 Mar 11 - 04:37 PM
MGM·Lion 21 Mar 11 - 04:48 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 11 - 04:59 PM
GUEST,999 21 Mar 11 - 05:00 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 11 - 05:08 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 11 - 06:22 PM
Lox 21 Mar 11 - 06:32 PM
MGM·Lion 21 Mar 11 - 06:50 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 11 - 09:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 11 - 10:28 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 11 - 10:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 11 - 10:55 PM
GUEST,999 22 Mar 11 - 12:10 AM
MGM·Lion 22 Mar 11 - 01:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 11 - 02:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 11 - 02:44 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 11 - 03:52 AM
Lox 22 Mar 11 - 06:11 AM
GUEST,999 22 Mar 11 - 06:11 AM
Lox 22 Mar 11 - 06:25 AM
Lox 22 Mar 11 - 06:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 11 - 06:46 AM
Lox 22 Mar 11 - 06:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 11 - 07:05 AM
Lox 22 Mar 11 - 07:07 AM
Lox 22 Mar 11 - 07:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 11 - 08:17 AM
GUEST,999 22 Mar 11 - 08:25 AM
GUEST,999 22 Mar 11 - 08:32 AM
GUEST,999 22 Mar 11 - 08:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 11 - 08:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 11 - 08:58 AM
GUEST,999 22 Mar 11 - 08:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 11 - 09:08 AM
GUEST,999 22 Mar 11 - 09:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 11 - 09:32 AM
Lox 22 Mar 11 - 11:18 AM
Lox 22 Mar 11 - 11:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 11 - 12:46 PM
GUEST,lively 22 Mar 11 - 03:41 PM
GUEST,lively 22 Mar 11 - 04:13 PM
MGM·Lion 22 Mar 11 - 04:19 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 11 - 04:27 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 11 - 04:44 PM
Lox 22 Mar 11 - 05:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 11 - 06:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 11 - 06:31 PM
Lox 22 Mar 11 - 08:03 PM
Lox 22 Mar 11 - 08:08 PM
Lox 22 Mar 11 - 08:22 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Mar 11 - 08:32 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Mar 11 - 02:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Mar 11 - 02:38 AM
Lox 23 Mar 11 - 05:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Mar 11 - 06:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Mar 11 - 08:40 AM
Lox 23 Mar 11 - 02:06 PM
GUEST,lively 23 Mar 11 - 02:27 PM
GUEST,lively 23 Mar 11 - 02:35 PM
Lox 23 Mar 11 - 03:11 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Mar 11 - 03:13 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Mar 11 - 03:17 PM
Lox 23 Mar 11 - 03:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Mar 11 - 04:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Mar 11 - 06:03 PM
Lox 23 Mar 11 - 10:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Mar 11 - 02:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Mar 11 - 04:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Mar 11 - 04:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Mar 11 - 04:47 AM
Lox 24 Mar 11 - 05:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Mar 11 - 06:17 AM
Lox 24 Mar 11 - 07:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Mar 11 - 07:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Mar 11 - 08:20 AM
Lox 24 Mar 11 - 08:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Mar 11 - 08:38 AM
Lox 24 Mar 11 - 09:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Mar 11 - 11:50 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Mar 11 - 01:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Mar 11 - 03:09 PM
GUEST,lively 24 Mar 11 - 03:39 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Mar 11 - 04:09 PM
MGM·Lion 24 Mar 11 - 04:19 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Mar 11 - 04:22 PM
MGM·Lion 24 Mar 11 - 04:40 PM
GUEST,lively 24 Mar 11 - 04:50 PM
MGM·Lion 24 Mar 11 - 05:00 PM
GUEST,lively 24 Mar 11 - 05:03 PM
GUEST,lively 24 Mar 11 - 05:06 PM
MGM·Lion 24 Mar 11 - 05:53 PM
GUEST,lively 24 Mar 11 - 06:02 PM
Lox 24 Mar 11 - 07:23 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Mar 11 - 08:29 PM
Lox 24 Mar 11 - 08:32 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Mar 11 - 02:38 AM
MGM·Lion 25 Mar 11 - 05:11 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 11 - 05:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Mar 11 - 05:41 AM
MGM·Lion 25 Mar 11 - 05:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Mar 11 - 05:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Mar 11 - 05:52 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 11 - 06:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Mar 11 - 07:11 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 11 - 07:24 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 11 - 07:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Mar 11 - 07:38 AM
Lox 25 Mar 11 - 08:40 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 11 - 08:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Mar 11 - 09:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Mar 11 - 09:09 AM
GUEST,lively 25 Mar 11 - 09:10 AM
GUEST,lively 25 Mar 11 - 09:13 AM
Lox 25 Mar 11 - 10:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Mar 11 - 10:15 AM
Lox 25 Mar 11 - 10:21 AM
Lox 25 Mar 11 - 10:26 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 11 - 10:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Mar 11 - 10:31 AM
Lox 25 Mar 11 - 10:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Mar 11 - 10:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Mar 11 - 10:42 AM
Lox 25 Mar 11 - 10:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Mar 11 - 10:55 AM
Lox 25 Mar 11 - 11:05 AM
Lox 25 Mar 11 - 11:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Mar 11 - 11:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Mar 11 - 11:16 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 11 - 12:13 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 11 - 12:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Mar 11 - 12:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Mar 11 - 01:02 PM
GUEST,lively 25 Mar 11 - 01:48 PM
GUEST,lively 25 Mar 11 - 02:34 PM
GUEST,lively 25 Mar 11 - 02:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Mar 11 - 07:14 AM
GUEST,lively 26 Mar 11 - 07:41 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Mar 11 - 08:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Mar 11 - 09:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Mar 11 - 09:29 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Mar 11 - 01:11 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Mar 11 - 02:47 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Mar 11 - 03:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Mar 11 - 06:11 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Mar 11 - 05:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Mar 11 - 05:40 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Mar 11 - 06:57 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Mar 11 - 06:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Mar 11 - 07:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Mar 11 - 07:52 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Mar 11 - 08:00 AM
GUEST,lively 27 Mar 11 - 08:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Mar 11 - 08:16 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Mar 11 - 08:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Mar 11 - 08:35 AM
GUEST,lively 27 Mar 11 - 08:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Mar 11 - 09:21 AM
Lox 27 Mar 11 - 03:25 PM
Lox 27 Mar 11 - 03:32 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Mar 11 - 04:04 PM
Lox 27 Mar 11 - 05:42 PM
Lox 27 Mar 11 - 06:41 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Mar 11 - 01:31 AM
GUEST,999 28 Mar 11 - 01:40 AM
Lox 28 Mar 11 - 05:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Mar 11 - 05:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Mar 11 - 05:38 AM
GUEST,999--sorry for the 6,790th time this year. 28 Mar 11 - 05:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Mar 11 - 06:04 AM
GUEST,999 28 Mar 11 - 06:10 AM
Lox 28 Mar 11 - 06:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Mar 11 - 07:08 AM
Lox 28 Mar 11 - 07:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Mar 11 - 07:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Mar 11 - 07:55 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Mar 11 - 08:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Mar 11 - 10:49 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Mar 11 - 11:37 AM
Lox 28 Mar 11 - 01:24 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Mar 11 - 02:35 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Mar 11 - 03:00 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Mar 11 - 03:03 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Mar 11 - 04:13 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Mar 11 - 04:21 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Mar 11 - 05:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Mar 11 - 05:19 PM
GUEST,lively 28 Mar 11 - 05:27 PM
Lox 28 Mar 11 - 05:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Mar 11 - 01:12 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Mar 11 - 04:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Mar 11 - 04:34 AM
Lox 29 Mar 11 - 05:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Mar 11 - 05:42 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Mar 11 - 05:58 AM
Lox 29 Mar 11 - 06:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Mar 11 - 06:36 AM
Lox 29 Mar 11 - 07:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Mar 11 - 07:01 AM
Lox 29 Mar 11 - 07:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Mar 11 - 07:20 AM
Lox 29 Mar 11 - 08:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Mar 11 - 08:44 AM
Lox 29 Mar 11 - 08:48 AM
Greg F. 29 Mar 11 - 09:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Mar 11 - 09:11 AM
Lox 29 Mar 11 - 10:12 AM
Stringsinger 29 Mar 11 - 12:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Mar 11 - 02:42 PM
Lox 29 Mar 11 - 05:11 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Mar 11 - 01:07 AM
GUEST,999 30 Mar 11 - 01:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Mar 11 - 01:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Mar 11 - 01:35 AM
GUEST,999 30 Mar 11 - 02:05 AM
GUEST,999 30 Mar 11 - 02:46 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Mar 11 - 03:31 AM
GUEST,999 30 Mar 11 - 03:49 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Mar 11 - 03:53 AM
Smedley 30 Mar 11 - 04:08 AM
GUEST,999 30 Mar 11 - 04:08 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Mar 11 - 04:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Mar 11 - 04:32 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Mar 11 - 05:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Mar 11 - 07:46 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Mar 11 - 07:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Mar 11 - 08:03 AM
Backwoodsman 30 Mar 11 - 12:14 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Mar 11 - 12:51 PM
Backwoodsman 30 Mar 11 - 02:08 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Mar 11 - 02:35 PM
GUEST,999 30 Mar 11 - 02:38 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Mar 11 - 03:04 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Mar 11 - 03:40 PM
GUEST,lively 30 Mar 11 - 04:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Mar 11 - 05:16 PM
GUEST,lively 30 Mar 11 - 05:30 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Mar 11 - 05:49 PM
GUEST,lively 30 Mar 11 - 06:05 PM
Lox 30 Mar 11 - 06:18 PM
Lox 30 Mar 11 - 06:29 PM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Mar 11 - 12:03 AM
Lox 31 Mar 11 - 04:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Mar 11 - 05:10 AM
GUEST,lively 31 Mar 11 - 06:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Mar 11 - 07:01 AM
GUEST,Patsy 31 Mar 11 - 07:44 AM
GUEST,lively 31 Mar 11 - 07:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Mar 11 - 07:53 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Mar 11 - 09:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Mar 11 - 10:08 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Mar 11 - 11:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Mar 11 - 11:56 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Mar 11 - 12:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Mar 11 - 12:57 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 31 Mar 11 - 02:38 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Mar 11 - 03:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Mar 11 - 03:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Mar 11 - 03:38 PM
MGM·Lion 31 Mar 11 - 11:59 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Apr 11 - 01:36 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 11 - 05:06 AM
Backwoodsman 01 Apr 11 - 05:13 AM
Smedley 01 Apr 11 - 05:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Apr 11 - 05:35 AM
Lox 01 Apr 11 - 05:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Apr 11 - 06:33 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 01 Apr 11 - 07:13 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 01 Apr 11 - 07:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Apr 11 - 07:38 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Apr 11 - 08:19 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 11 - 08:53 AM
GUEST,lively 01 Apr 11 - 08:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Apr 11 - 10:19 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Apr 11 - 10:23 AM
GUEST,lively 01 Apr 11 - 12:02 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 11 - 12:19 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 11 - 12:22 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Apr 11 - 12:41 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 11 - 12:55 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Apr 11 - 01:04 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 11 - 01:24 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Apr 11 - 01:51 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Apr 11 - 02:14 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Apr 11 - 02:24 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Apr 11 - 02:36 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 11 - 03:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Apr 11 - 04:02 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Apr 11 - 04:14 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 11 - 04:14 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Apr 11 - 04:44 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 11 - 04:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Apr 11 - 05:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Apr 11 - 05:11 PM
akenaton 01 Apr 11 - 05:25 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Apr 11 - 11:16 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 11 - 02:46 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 11 - 02:59 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 11 - 03:21 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Apr 11 - 03:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Apr 11 - 04:03 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 11 - 04:37 AM
GUEST,lively 02 Apr 11 - 04:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Apr 11 - 04:44 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 11 - 05:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Apr 11 - 07:58 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 11 - 08:52 AM
GUEST,lively 02 Apr 11 - 08:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Apr 11 - 09:29 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 11 - 12:28 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Apr 11 - 12:37 PM
GUEST,lively 02 Apr 11 - 01:35 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Apr 11 - 01:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Apr 11 - 02:00 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 11 - 02:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Apr 11 - 02:48 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 11 - 03:19 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Apr 11 - 03:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Apr 11 - 06:11 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 11 - 07:59 AM
Lox 03 Apr 11 - 08:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Apr 11 - 08:50 AM
Lox 03 Apr 11 - 08:54 AM
Lox 03 Apr 11 - 08:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Apr 11 - 09:10 AM
akenaton 03 Apr 11 - 11:20 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 11 - 11:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Apr 11 - 11:34 AM
Lox 03 Apr 11 - 12:18 PM
Lox 03 Apr 11 - 12:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Apr 11 - 12:53 PM
Lox 03 Apr 11 - 12:58 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Apr 11 - 01:24 PM
Lox 03 Apr 11 - 01:33 PM
Stringsinger 03 Apr 11 - 02:08 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Apr 11 - 02:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Apr 11 - 03:05 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 11 - 03:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Apr 11 - 03:57 PM
GUEST,lively 03 Apr 11 - 04:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Apr 11 - 05:07 PM
Lox 03 Apr 11 - 05:24 PM
Greg F. 03 Apr 11 - 05:38 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 11 - 05:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Apr 11 - 01:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Apr 11 - 01:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Apr 11 - 01:37 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Apr 11 - 03:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Apr 11 - 04:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Apr 11 - 04:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Apr 11 - 04:58 AM
Lox 04 Apr 11 - 05:15 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Apr 11 - 05:52 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Apr 11 - 06:01 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Apr 11 - 06:04 AM
Lox 04 Apr 11 - 06:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Apr 11 - 06:55 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Apr 11 - 06:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Apr 11 - 06:57 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Apr 11 - 07:11 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Apr 11 - 07:17 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Apr 11 - 07:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Apr 11 - 07:41 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Apr 11 - 08:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Apr 11 - 08:37 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Apr 11 - 09:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Apr 11 - 10:29 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Apr 11 - 11:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Apr 11 - 11:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Apr 11 - 11:39 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Apr 11 - 12:18 PM
Lox 04 Apr 11 - 01:50 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Apr 11 - 03:47 PM
Lox 04 Apr 11 - 04:53 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Apr 11 - 05:12 PM
Lox 04 Apr 11 - 05:26 PM
Lox 04 Apr 11 - 05:28 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Apr 11 - 05:30 PM
Lox 04 Apr 11 - 06:38 PM
Lox 04 Apr 11 - 06:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Apr 11 - 01:12 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Apr 11 - 01:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Apr 11 - 02:59 AM
GUEST,lively 05 Apr 11 - 03:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Apr 11 - 03:59 AM
GUEST,lively 05 Apr 11 - 04:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Apr 11 - 04:45 AM
Lox 05 Apr 11 - 04:53 AM
Lox 05 Apr 11 - 05:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Apr 11 - 05:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Apr 11 - 05:56 AM
Lox 05 Apr 11 - 06:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Apr 11 - 06:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Apr 11 - 06:50 AM
Lox 05 Apr 11 - 06:58 AM
GUEST,lively 05 Apr 11 - 07:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Apr 11 - 07:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Apr 11 - 07:49 AM
Lox 05 Apr 11 - 07:55 AM
Lox 05 Apr 11 - 07:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Apr 11 - 08:03 AM
GUEST,lively 05 Apr 11 - 08:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Apr 11 - 08:14 AM
Lox 05 Apr 11 - 08:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Apr 11 - 08:39 AM
Lox 05 Apr 11 - 08:48 AM
Lox 05 Apr 11 - 08:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Apr 11 - 09:11 AM
Lox 05 Apr 11 - 09:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Apr 11 - 09:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Apr 11 - 09:59 AM
GUEST,Guest, wampum 05 Apr 11 - 10:28 AM
Stringsinger 05 Apr 11 - 01:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Apr 11 - 01:39 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 11 - 02:31 AM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 06 Apr 11 - 03:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Apr 11 - 03:11 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 11 - 03:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Apr 11 - 03:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Apr 11 - 03:27 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 11 - 04:18 AM
Lox 06 Apr 11 - 05:24 AM
MGM·Lion 06 Apr 11 - 05:35 AM
MGM·Lion 06 Apr 11 - 05:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Apr 11 - 05:39 AM
Lox 06 Apr 11 - 05:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Apr 11 - 06:03 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 11 - 06:07 AM
Lox 06 Apr 11 - 06:46 AM
MGM·Lion 06 Apr 11 - 07:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Apr 11 - 07:52 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 11 - 09:01 AM
MGM·Lion 06 Apr 11 - 09:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Apr 11 - 09:57 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 11 - 10:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Apr 11 - 11:10 AM
Silas 06 Apr 11 - 11:34 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 11 - 12:05 PM
GUEST,wampum 06 Apr 11 - 12:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Apr 11 - 12:29 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 11 - 01:21 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 11 - 01:33 PM
Lox 06 Apr 11 - 01:41 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Apr 11 - 01:49 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 11 - 02:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Apr 11 - 02:29 PM
Lox 06 Apr 11 - 02:35 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Apr 11 - 02:44 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 11 - 02:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Apr 11 - 03:04 PM
Lox 07 Apr 11 - 05:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Apr 11 - 10:13 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Apr 11 - 04:04 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Apr 11 - 04:11 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Apr 11 - 04:47 PM
akenaton 07 Apr 11 - 04:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Apr 11 - 01:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Apr 11 - 02:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Apr 11 - 02:03 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Apr 11 - 04:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Apr 11 - 05:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Apr 11 - 05:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Apr 11 - 05:39 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Apr 11 - 05:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Apr 11 - 06:15 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Apr 11 - 07:15 AM
Lox 08 Apr 11 - 07:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Apr 11 - 07:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Apr 11 - 07:47 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Apr 11 - 08:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Apr 11 - 08:36 AM
Silas 08 Apr 11 - 08:44 AM
Lox 08 Apr 11 - 09:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Apr 11 - 09:36 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Apr 11 - 09:41 AM
Lox 08 Apr 11 - 10:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Apr 11 - 10:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Apr 11 - 11:18 AM
akenaton 08 Apr 11 - 04:42 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Apr 11 - 08:46 PM
Lox 08 Apr 11 - 11:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Apr 11 - 01:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Apr 11 - 02:53 AM
Lox 09 Apr 11 - 07:00 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Apr 11 - 08:47 AM
Lox 09 Apr 11 - 06:33 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Apr 11 - 06:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Apr 11 - 07:05 PM
Lox 09 Apr 11 - 07:17 PM
Lox 09 Apr 11 - 07:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Apr 11 - 01:53 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Apr 11 - 02:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Apr 11 - 03:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Apr 11 - 05:38 AM
Lox 10 Apr 11 - 07:50 AM
Lox 10 Apr 11 - 07:52 AM
Lox 10 Apr 11 - 08:36 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Apr 11 - 08:05 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Apr 11 - 08:21 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Apr 11 - 08:45 PM
akenaton 11 Apr 11 - 06:54 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Apr 11 - 07:14 AM
Lox 11 Apr 11 - 11:24 AM
akenaton 11 Apr 11 - 12:56 PM
Lox 11 Apr 11 - 03:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Apr 11 - 03:49 PM
GUEST,lively 13 Apr 11 - 04:15 PM
GUEST,lively 13 Apr 11 - 04:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Apr 11 - 05:05 PM
GUEST,Interested, Tunbridge Wells! 13 Apr 11 - 05:41 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Apr 11 - 04:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Apr 11 - 05:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Apr 11 - 05:08 AM
GUEST,Interested, Tunbridge Wells! 14 Apr 11 - 05:27 AM
Lox 14 Apr 11 - 05:34 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Apr 11 - 05:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Apr 11 - 05:45 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Apr 11 - 06:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Apr 11 - 06:53 AM
GUEST,Interested, Tunbridge Wells ! 14 Apr 11 - 07:12 AM
Lox 14 Apr 11 - 07:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Apr 11 - 07:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Apr 11 - 07:34 AM
Lox 14 Apr 11 - 07:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Apr 11 - 07:55 AM
Lox 14 Apr 11 - 07:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Apr 11 - 08:02 AM
Lox 14 Apr 11 - 08:11 AM
Lox 14 Apr 11 - 08:14 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Apr 11 - 08:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Apr 11 - 08:42 AM
Lox 14 Apr 11 - 09:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Apr 11 - 09:08 AM
Lox 14 Apr 11 - 09:26 AM
Lox 14 Apr 11 - 09:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Apr 11 - 09:59 AM
Lox 14 Apr 11 - 10:34 AM
Lox 14 Apr 11 - 10:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Apr 11 - 10:50 AM
Lox 14 Apr 11 - 11:21 AM
Lox 14 Apr 11 - 11:27 AM
Lox 14 Apr 11 - 11:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Apr 11 - 12:21 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Apr 11 - 12:28 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Apr 11 - 12:58 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Apr 11 - 01:01 PM
Lox 14 Apr 11 - 02:15 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Apr 11 - 02:32 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Apr 11 - 02:39 PM
Lox 14 Apr 11 - 03:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Apr 11 - 03:21 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Apr 11 - 03:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Apr 11 - 04:12 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Apr 11 - 04:50 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Apr 11 - 05:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Apr 11 - 05:29 PM
Lox 14 Apr 11 - 05:31 PM
Lox 14 Apr 11 - 05:44 PM
Lox 14 Apr 11 - 06:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Apr 11 - 01:24 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Apr 11 - 03:57 AM
Lox 15 Apr 11 - 04:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Apr 11 - 04:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Apr 11 - 04:52 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Apr 11 - 05:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Apr 11 - 06:15 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Apr 11 - 07:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Apr 11 - 08:05 AM
Lox 15 Apr 11 - 08:06 AM
Lox 15 Apr 11 - 08:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Apr 11 - 09:04 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Apr 11 - 10:56 AM
Lox 15 Apr 11 - 11:35 AM
Lox 15 Apr 11 - 11:38 AM
Lox 15 Apr 11 - 11:40 AM
Lox 15 Apr 11 - 11:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Apr 11 - 11:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Apr 11 - 11:49 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Apr 11 - 12:54 PM
Lox 15 Apr 11 - 02:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Apr 11 - 02:43 PM
Lox 15 Apr 11 - 06:56 PM
Lox 15 Apr 11 - 07:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Apr 11 - 01:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Apr 11 - 01:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Apr 11 - 02:52 AM
Lox 16 Apr 11 - 05:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Apr 11 - 05:31 AM
Lox 16 Apr 11 - 05:40 AM
Lox 16 Apr 11 - 05:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Apr 11 - 05:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Apr 11 - 05:48 AM
Lox 16 Apr 11 - 05:48 AM
Lox 16 Apr 11 - 05:52 AM
Lox 16 Apr 11 - 05:59 AM
Lox 16 Apr 11 - 06:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Apr 11 - 06:25 AM
Lox 16 Apr 11 - 07:59 AM
Lox 16 Apr 11 - 08:25 AM
Lox 16 Apr 11 - 08:36 AM
GUEST,wampum 16 Apr 11 - 08:42 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Apr 11 - 10:24 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Apr 11 - 10:31 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Apr 11 - 10:41 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Apr 11 - 10:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Apr 11 - 11:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Apr 11 - 11:46 AM
Silas 16 Apr 11 - 01:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Apr 11 - 01:33 PM
Silas 16 Apr 11 - 02:20 PM
Lox 16 Apr 11 - 04:57 PM
Lox 16 Apr 11 - 05:02 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Apr 11 - 05:24 PM
Lox 16 Apr 11 - 07:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Apr 11 - 02:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Apr 11 - 02:40 AM
Lox 17 Apr 11 - 08:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Apr 11 - 10:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Apr 11 - 05:17 PM
Lox 18 Apr 11 - 10:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Apr 11 - 10:48 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Apr 11 - 11:07 AM
Lox 18 Apr 11 - 11:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Apr 11 - 11:57 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Apr 11 - 08:12 PM
Lox 18 Apr 11 - 08:57 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Apr 11 - 03:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Apr 11 - 04:42 AM
Lox 19 Apr 11 - 09:29 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Apr 11 - 10:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Apr 11 - 10:21 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Apr 11 - 10:28 AM
Lox 19 Apr 11 - 10:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Apr 11 - 10:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Apr 11 - 11:00 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Apr 11 - 11:53 AM
Lox 19 Apr 11 - 11:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Apr 11 - 12:20 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Apr 11 - 01:41 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Apr 11 - 01:49 PM
MGM·Lion 19 Apr 11 - 02:27 PM
Lox 19 Apr 11 - 03:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Apr 11 - 03:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Apr 11 - 03:58 PM
Lox 19 Apr 11 - 04:06 PM
Lox 19 Apr 11 - 04:09 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Apr 11 - 07:35 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Apr 11 - 01:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Apr 11 - 02:27 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 11 - 03:53 AM
MGM·Lion 20 Apr 11 - 04:34 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 11 - 05:03 AM
MGM·Lion 20 Apr 11 - 06:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Apr 11 - 06:33 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 11 - 07:03 AM
GUEST,lively 20 Apr 11 - 07:04 AM
GUEST,lively 20 Apr 11 - 07:10 AM
MGM·Lion 20 Apr 11 - 08:14 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 11 - 08:26 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 11 - 09:08 AM
GUEST,lively 20 Apr 11 - 09:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Apr 11 - 09:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Apr 11 - 10:06 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 11 - 11:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Apr 11 - 11:41 AM
MGM·Lion 20 Apr 11 - 12:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Apr 11 - 12:06 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 11 - 12:34 PM
MGM·Lion 20 Apr 11 - 12:59 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 11 - 01:14 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Apr 11 - 01:24 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Apr 11 - 01:26 PM
Lox 20 Apr 11 - 02:50 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 11 - 03:33 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Apr 11 - 03:48 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 11 - 04:44 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 11 - 04:54 PM
GUEST,lively 20 Apr 11 - 04:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Apr 11 - 05:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Apr 11 - 05:35 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 11 - 06:00 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Apr 11 - 07:58 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Apr 11 - 08:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Apr 11 - 10:36 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Apr 11 - 10:44 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 11 - 12:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Apr 11 - 02:54 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 11 - 03:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Apr 11 - 03:47 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 11 - 04:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Apr 11 - 04:48 AM
GUEST,lively 21 Apr 11 - 04:59 AM
GUEST,lively 21 Apr 11 - 05:13 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 11 - 05:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Apr 11 - 06:11 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Apr 11 - 06:25 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Apr 11 - 06:43 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 11 - 07:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Apr 11 - 07:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Apr 11 - 08:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Apr 11 - 09:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Apr 11 - 09:38 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 11 - 10:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Apr 11 - 11:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Apr 11 - 11:27 AM
MGM·Lion 21 Apr 11 - 01:59 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 11 - 03:13 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Apr 11 - 03:33 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Apr 11 - 02:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Apr 11 - 03:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Apr 11 - 02:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Apr 11 - 09:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 11 - 04:04 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 11 - 05:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 11 - 05:13 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 11 - 06:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 11 - 06:41 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Jun 11 - 07:11 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 11 - 07:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 11 - 08:14 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 11 - 08:34 AM
GUEST,lively 09 Jun 11 - 10:10 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 11 - 10:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 11 - 10:37 AM
GUEST,lively 09 Jun 11 - 11:58 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 11 - 12:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 11 - 01:00 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Jun 11 - 06:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 11 - 10:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 11 - 02:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 11 - 06:38 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jun 11 - 08:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 11 - 08:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 11 - 08:45 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jun 11 - 08:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 11 - 09:16 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jun 11 - 12:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 11 - 01:51 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Jun 11 - 02:36 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 11 - 03:12 PM
MGM·Lion 10 Jun 11 - 05:36 PM
MGM·Lion 10 Jun 11 - 05:39 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 11 - 02:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 11 - 02:11 AM
GUEST,Jim Martin 11 Jun 11 - 04:33 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jun 11 - 04:42 AM
MGM·Lion 11 Jun 11 - 04:47 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Jun 11 - 04:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 11 - 05:33 AM
MGM·Lion 11 Jun 11 - 06:00 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jun 11 - 09:03 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jun 11 - 09:10 AM
Silas 11 Jun 11 - 09:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 11 - 09:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 11 - 09:34 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jun 11 - 01:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jun 11 - 04:25 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jun 11 - 05:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jun 11 - 07:09 AM
akenaton 12 Jun 11 - 11:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jun 11 - 02:32 PM
Lox 12 Jun 11 - 05:29 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 11 - 01:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 11 - 01:55 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Jun 11 - 08:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 11 - 10:48 AM
Lox 13 Jun 11 - 04:22 PM
GUEST,Jon 13 Jun 11 - 05:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 11 - 05:39 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 11 - 05:46 PM
Lox 13 Jun 11 - 06:05 PM
GUEST,jon 13 Jun 11 - 06:07 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Jun 11 - 09:23 PM
J-boy 14 Jun 11 - 12:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 11 - 12:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 11 - 12:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 11 - 12:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 11 - 12:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 11 - 01:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 11 - 01:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 11 - 01:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 11 - 01:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 11 - 01:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 11 - 01:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 11 - 01:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 11 - 01:45 AM
GUEST,Jon 14 Jun 11 - 04:33 AM
GUEST,keith A 14 Jun 11 - 04:46 AM
GUEST,Jon 14 Jun 11 - 04:55 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Jun 11 - 05:34 AM
GUEST,Jon 14 Jun 11 - 05:38 AM
GUEST,keith A 14 Jun 11 - 06:14 AM
GUEST,keith 14 Jun 11 - 06:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 11 - 10:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 11 - 03:11 PM
Lox 14 Jun 11 - 03:21 PM
GUEST,Jon 14 Jun 11 - 04:30 PM
GUEST,Jon 14 Jun 11 - 04:41 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 11 - 04:42 PM
GUEST,Jon 14 Jun 11 - 04:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 11 - 04:50 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 11 - 05:15 PM
Lox 14 Jun 11 - 05:28 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 11 - 05:53 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Jun 11 - 07:32 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jun 11 - 01:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jun 11 - 01:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jun 11 - 03:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jun 11 - 04:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jun 11 - 04:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 11 - 03:16 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jun 11 - 09:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 11 - 11:26 AM
GUEST,Jon 16 Jun 11 - 11:31 AM
akenaton 16 Jun 11 - 12:29 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Jun 11 - 12:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 11 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,Jon 16 Jun 11 - 01:04 PM
GUEST,Jon 16 Jun 11 - 01:07 PM
akenaton 16 Jun 11 - 02:20 PM
GUEST,Jon 16 Jun 11 - 02:39 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Jun 11 - 02:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 11 - 03:02 PM
GUEST,Jon 16 Jun 11 - 03:14 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Jun 11 - 03:39 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 11 - 06:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 11 - 06:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 11 - 06:59 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Jun 11 - 03:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 11 - 04:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 11 - 04:12 AM
Joe Offer 17 Jun 11 - 04:05 PM
MGM·Lion 18 Jun 11 - 01:22 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jun 11 - 03:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 11 - 04:41 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Jun 11 - 06:09 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Jun 11 - 06:21 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Jun 11 - 06:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 11 - 01:29 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jun 11 - 03:08 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 11 - 03:49 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jun 11 - 03:49 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jun 11 - 03:58 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jun 11 - 04:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 11 - 05:20 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Jun 11 - 04:32 AM
GUEST,Jon 19 Jun 11 - 04:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jun 11 - 05:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jun 11 - 05:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jun 11 - 05:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jun 11 - 05:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jun 11 - 06:18 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jun 11 - 07:16 AM
MGM·Lion 19 Jun 11 - 08:51 AM
GUEST,Jon 19 Jun 11 - 11:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jun 11 - 11:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jun 11 - 12:04 PM
GUEST,Jon 19 Jun 11 - 12:16 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Jun 11 - 12:57 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Jun 11 - 01:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jun 11 - 01:35 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jun 11 - 01:39 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jun 11 - 01:46 PM
GUEST,Jon 19 Jun 11 - 01:59 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jun 11 - 02:12 PM
MGM·Lion 19 Jun 11 - 02:31 PM
GUEST,Jon 19 Jun 11 - 03:36 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Jun 11 - 03:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jun 11 - 04:11 PM
MGM·Lion 19 Jun 11 - 04:50 PM
MGM·Lion 19 Jun 11 - 04:58 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jun 11 - 05:22 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Jun 11 - 09:08 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Jun 11 - 09:21 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jun 11 - 01:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jun 11 - 01:33 AM
Lox 20 Jun 11 - 08:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 11 - 01:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 11 - 02:08 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 11 - 02:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 11 - 02:22 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 11 - 02:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 11 - 02:43 AM
GUEST,Keith A 21 Jun 11 - 03:28 AM
MGM·Lion 21 Jun 11 - 03:47 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 11 - 03:54 AM
GUEST,Keith A 21 Jun 11 - 05:21 AM
GUEST,Jon 21 Jun 11 - 05:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 11 - 06:27 AM
Lox 21 Jun 11 - 07:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 11 - 08:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 11 - 08:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 11 - 08:54 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 11 - 01:24 PM
Lox 21 Jun 11 - 02:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 11 - 02:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 11 - 02:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 11 - 03:39 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 11 - 03:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 11 - 03:48 PM
Lox 21 Jun 11 - 04:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 11 - 05:03 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Jun 11 - 07:35 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Jun 11 - 07:46 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Jun 11 - 08:00 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Jun 11 - 08:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jun 11 - 01:13 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 11 - 03:43 AM
GUEST,keith A 22 Jun 11 - 04:22 AM
GUEST,keith A 22 Jun 11 - 04:31 AM
Lox 22 Jun 11 - 05:45 AM
GUEST,Keith A 22 Jun 11 - 06:11 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 11 - 07:09 AM
Lox 22 Jun 11 - 07:26 AM
GUEST,keith A 22 Jun 11 - 08:23 AM
GUEST,keith A 22 Jun 11 - 08:32 AM
GUEST,Keith A 22 Jun 11 - 08:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jun 11 - 10:37 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Jun 11 - 11:00 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Jun 11 - 11:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jun 11 - 11:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jun 11 - 11:33 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 11 - 01:27 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 11 - 01:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jun 11 - 02:36 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jun 11 - 02:44 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 11 - 03:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jun 11 - 03:53 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 11 - 05:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jun 11 - 01:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jun 11 - 02:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jun 11 - 04:21 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 11 - 05:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jun 11 - 06:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jun 11 - 06:08 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 11 - 07:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jun 11 - 07:34 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 11 - 04:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jun 11 - 05:35 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jun 11 - 05:39 PM
GUEST,John Orford 24 Jun 11 - 12:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jun 11 - 01:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jun 11 - 02:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jun 11 - 03:21 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 11 - 01:45 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 24 Jun 11 - 02:33 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jun 11 - 04:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jun 11 - 04:54 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 11 - 05:24 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jun 11 - 03:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jun 11 - 03:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jun 11 - 04:15 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 11 - 06:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jun 11 - 07:16 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 11 - 09:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jun 11 - 11:57 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 11 - 02:02 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jun 11 - 02:23 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 11 - 04:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jun 11 - 02:44 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 11 - 04:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jun 11 - 04:52 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 11 - 06:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jun 11 - 07:04 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Jun 11 - 03:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jun 11 - 04:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jun 11 - 05:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jun 11 - 05:10 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jun 11 - 03:12 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 11 - 04:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jun 11 - 05:20 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 11 - 05:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jun 11 - 05:37 AM
GUEST,Jon 29 Jun 11 - 05:51 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 29 Jun 11 - 06:04 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 29 Jun 11 - 06:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jun 11 - 07:14 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 11 - 07:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jun 11 - 07:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jun 11 - 07:44 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 11 - 09:17 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 11 - 10:48 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 11 - 11:12 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 29 Jun 11 - 11:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jun 11 - 11:53 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 11 - 12:27 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jun 11 - 12:28 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jun 11 - 12:31 PM
Brian May 29 Jun 11 - 01:04 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 11 - 01:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jun 11 - 02:31 PM
MGM·Lion 29 Jun 11 - 02:49 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 11 - 03:08 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 11 - 03:13 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jun 11 - 03:29 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jun 11 - 05:22 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Jun 11 - 03:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jun 11 - 03:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jun 11 - 04:49 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Jun 11 - 05:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jun 11 - 05:22 AM
GUEST,Jon 30 Jun 11 - 05:25 AM
GUEST,livelylass 30 Jun 11 - 05:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jun 11 - 05:36 AM
GUEST,Jon 30 Jun 11 - 05:46 AM
GUEST,livelylass 30 Jun 11 - 05:47 AM
GUEST,Jon 30 Jun 11 - 05:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jun 11 - 06:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jun 11 - 06:04 AM
GUEST,Jon 30 Jun 11 - 06:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jun 11 - 06:36 AM
GUEST,Jon 30 Jun 11 - 06:40 AM
MGM·Lion 30 Jun 11 - 06:44 AM
GUEST,Jon 30 Jun 11 - 06:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jun 11 - 06:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jun 11 - 06:54 AM
GUEST,Jon 30 Jun 11 - 06:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jun 11 - 07:23 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Jun 11 - 07:32 AM
GUEST,Jon 30 Jun 11 - 07:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jun 11 - 07:43 AM
GUEST,Jon 30 Jun 11 - 09:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jun 11 - 09:30 AM
GUEST,Jon 30 Jun 11 - 09:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jun 11 - 09:47 AM
GUEST,Jon 30 Jun 11 - 10:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jun 11 - 11:23 AM
GUEST,Jon 30 Jun 11 - 12:59 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jun 11 - 02:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jun 11 - 02:41 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Jun 11 - 04:02 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jun 11 - 04:14 PM
GUEST,Jon 30 Jun 11 - 04:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jun 11 - 06:19 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Jun 11 - 07:54 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Jun 11 - 08:07 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Jun 11 - 08:16 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Jun 11 - 09:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 11 - 01:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 11 - 02:07 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jul 11 - 03:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 11 - 03:36 AM
GUEST,old guy 01 Jul 11 - 04:00 AM
GUEST,Jon 01 Jul 11 - 04:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 11 - 04:41 AM
GUEST,Jon 01 Jul 11 - 04:51 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jul 11 - 05:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 11 - 05:19 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jul 11 - 06:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 11 - 06:39 AM
Richard Bridge 01 Jul 11 - 06:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 11 - 06:47 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 01 Jul 11 - 06:54 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 01 Jul 11 - 07:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 11 - 07:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 11 - 07:19 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jul 11 - 08:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 11 - 08:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 11 - 09:33 AM
GUEST,Jon 01 Jul 11 - 09:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 11 - 10:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 11 - 10:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 11 - 10:14 AM
GUEST,Jon 01 Jul 11 - 10:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 11 - 11:08 AM
GUEST,Jon 01 Jul 11 - 11:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 11 - 11:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 11 - 12:20 PM
GUEST,Jon 01 Jul 11 - 12:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 11 - 12:50 PM
GUEST,Jon 01 Jul 11 - 01:21 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 11 - 02:26 PM
GUEST,Jon 01 Jul 11 - 02:51 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 01 Jul 11 - 03:27 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 01 Jul 11 - 03:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 11 - 03:58 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 11 - 04:04 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 01 Jul 11 - 04:07 PM
GUEST,Jon 01 Jul 11 - 04:13 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jul 11 - 02:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jul 11 - 02:23 AM
GUEST,Jon 02 Jul 11 - 04:57 AM
GUEST,Jon 02 Jul 11 - 05:45 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jul 11 - 11:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jul 11 - 03:03 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Jul 11 - 04:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jul 11 - 05:04 PM
Stringsinger 02 Jul 11 - 07:38 PM
GUEST,Jon 02 Jul 11 - 07:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 11 - 03:05 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 11 - 04:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 11 - 05:21 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jul 11 - 05:33 AM
GUEST,Jon 03 Jul 11 - 05:33 AM
GUEST,Jon 03 Jul 11 - 05:38 AM
GUEST,Jon 03 Jul 11 - 05:58 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 11 - 06:59 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jul 11 - 07:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 11 - 07:53 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 11 - 08:20 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 11 - 08:25 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jul 11 - 12:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 11 - 01:33 PM
Jon Freeman 03 Jul 11 - 02:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 11 - 02:35 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Jul 11 - 06:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 11 - 01:19 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 11 - 03:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 11 - 04:06 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Jul 11 - 04:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 11 - 05:10 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Jul 11 - 11:56 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 11 - 02:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 11 - 04:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 11 - 04:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 11 - 04:53 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Jul 11 - 05:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jul 11 - 01:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jul 11 - 01:34 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jul 11 - 01:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jul 11 - 02:07 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jul 11 - 02:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jul 11 - 03:05 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jul 11 - 03:53 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 Jul 11 - 06:41 AM
GUEST,livelylass 05 Jul 11 - 02:32 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jul 11 - 02:08 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Jul 11 - 04:28 PM
MGM·Lion 07 Jul 11 - 01:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jul 11 - 01:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jul 11 - 01:24 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jul 11 - 03:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jul 11 - 03:54 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jul 11 - 02:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jul 11 - 04:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jul 11 - 04:24 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Jul 11 - 05:15 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jul 11 - 05:49 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Jul 11 - 07:23 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jul 11 - 01:18 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jul 11 - 02:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jul 11 - 03:04 AM
Joe Offer 08 Jul 11 - 03:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jul 11 - 03:22 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jul 11 - 04:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jul 11 - 04:57 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Jul 11 - 05:23 AM
GUEST,Jon 08 Jul 11 - 05:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jul 11 - 05:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jul 11 - 06:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jul 11 - 06:18 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Jul 11 - 06:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jul 11 - 06:47 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jul 11 - 08:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jul 11 - 09:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jul 11 - 09:32 AM
GUEST,Jon 08 Jul 11 - 09:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jul 11 - 09:53 AM
GUEST,Jon 08 Jul 11 - 10:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jul 11 - 10:12 AM
GUEST,Jon 08 Jul 11 - 10:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jul 11 - 10:58 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jul 11 - 11:00 AM
GUEST,Jon 08 Jul 11 - 11:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jul 11 - 11:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jul 11 - 11:21 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Jul 11 - 11:40 AM
GUEST,Jon 08 Jul 11 - 12:28 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jul 11 - 01:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jul 11 - 01:48 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jul 11 - 03:06 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jul 11 - 03:12 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jul 11 - 03:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jul 11 - 03:57 PM
GUEST,Jon 08 Jul 11 - 04:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jul 11 - 04:15 PM
GUEST,Jon 08 Jul 11 - 04:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jul 11 - 04:24 PM

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Subject: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Brian May
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 07:58 AM

"Prejudice against Muslims has "passed the dinner-table test" and become socially acceptable in the UK, a senior Conservative is to say.

Baroness Warsi, co-chairman of the Tory Party, will warn against dividing Muslims into moderates and extremists."


Hmmmm . . . I wonder how that could possibly have happened. She states she is anti-bigotry - good.

But, perhaps she should look at the causes and address those too. It's back to that 'old' adage.

'Not every Muslim is a terrorist, but every terrorist seems to be a Muslim.'

I don't recall this level of 'ill-will' existing before the 9/11 et al attacks.

Perhaps she should put her own house in order . . . first. Then perhaps we could make a judgement based on a peaceful community just getting on with life the best they can.

We'll see.

OK, 'do-gooders' . . . off you go.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:16 AM

What house should she be putting in order? Do you think she can just tell terrorists to stop bombing people and expect them to stop? She can, however, persuade our society to stop looking at Muslims as a homogenous group. Perhaps that is the house she should be putting in order, the one she actually lives in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:24 AM

We have a goodly amount of it here in the US, as well... It's nothin' but the same old divide-an-conquer boogie-man that Boss Hog uses to keep the masses from zeroing in on the fact that that Boss Hog has his hand sin our pockets...

Normal..

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:32 AM

A few tears ago it was all Irish are terrorists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:48 AM

A typo, maybe, Dave, but one that is most apt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:49 AM

Was thinking exactly the same thing...


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: InOBU
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:51 AM

There was a great little sign down the street here in New York... remember "they hate us for our freedom?" Someone wrote, "they hate us because we do not understand why they hate us..."

sigh

Lorcan


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:53 AM

She's dead right (even though she's a bloody Tory - I can never work out why she is). If you can get enough anti-words into mainstream acceptance, you're there. Islamism. Islamo-fascism. Islamic terrorism. Islamic fundamentalism (try getting the Daily Mail et al. to say "Christian Fundamentalism" or "Catholic fundamentalism"). Or just stick "Islamic" in front of any negative word or phrase (or one you've worked on to make negative). Islamic suicide bomber. The Islamic group Hamas/Hezbollah. Easy innit. "Islamic" is not automatically a race-word, so you can get away with this. Do it enough and it sticks. Sticks and stones may break bones, but words make a nice springboard for bigotry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:54 AM

That, unfortunately, is the truth, Lorcan...


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 09:06 AM

I also agree ... unfortunately that is the truth Lorcan

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 09:37 AM

They believe that the biggest terrorist is George W Bush. Imagine that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 12:44 PM

My husband is a Muslim and black. We expected to find a little bit of racism about his colour, but on the contrary everyone is friendly and helpful to him, and we haven't detected any racist reaction at all. BUT, when one mentions that he's a Muslim, one can see that people are a bit taken aback. I've had to explain to him that it might be best not to say what his religion is, as after the bombings etc. people are wary. He feels this is odd, as he cannot relate to terrorism in a religious cause, and is personally a very gentle African Muslim. In the town not long ago, an Evangelising Christian, a young lad, accosted us with "So, do you believe in Jesus Christ?" I explained that my husband spoke little English but was in fact a Muslim. I wanted to see his reaction to this, and I was not disappointed. He was quite unpleasant and gave us to understand that as a Muslim he was damned, and only Jesus could save him. He also added that 'Muslims' (not sure which ones he was referring to) were not good people and encouraged terrorism, and that God would 'sort them out soon'. Fortunately, my husband didn't get most of this tirade, but I was appalled. I wondered then, is this how British people actually view all Muslims? And is it fair that my husband should conceal his beliefs to avoid difficulties with bigotry etc.? And should I have said something, would it have done any good? I'm a practising Christian, and our marriage is built on tolerance and acceptance of each other's religions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 01:17 PM

I deleted the post from "A Mudcat Christian" and the responses to that post. Please remember that we allow users to use one identity, and only one identity.
When people post under false identities, please don't respond to them.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 01:36 PM

Would this be the same Baroness Warsi that harped on about section 28 being repealed by the Labour Party and about homosexuality being promoted in schools?

Putting a house in order

She talks of Islamophobia being the last accepted form of bigotry. I disagree on all counts with that. No bigotry should ever be acceptable and I believe that the mass amount of people in the UK are not Islamophobes. Most would take a stance against any bigoted comment about Islam as they would other bigotries.

Now she may have since put some of her house in order, as she has supported civil partnerships, but bigotry and its language is bigotry no matter how you dress it up.

I believe her to be right about what she says about some of the comments used against Muslims. But I do not believe that most find it acceptable. Nonetheless, if she is calling for people to rid themselves of bigotry then it has to be all bigotries and not just one kind. Her language about the promotion of homosexuality in schools was wrong, and she has since admitted that, but bigotry and misinformation still exists.

She has achieved a great deal as a Muslim woman. She is bound to have her own personal feelings and want to have open dialogue about them but it should never be singled out as different from other bigotries.

Bigotry is bigotry. The semantics and battle cries may differ but the effects are often the same to their victims and targets. I do not disagree with a great deal she says. She is right to highlight it. But she also needs to be aware of cutting other minorities some slack too unless they are a bigoted minority and that is something we all need to stand up against. It seems that here on Mudcat most find that kind of bigotry totally unacceptable.

Most Muslims I know do not have the victim type mentality. They are just wanting to go about their every day lives and be integrated while allowed to practice their faith. It's not too much to ask for is it?

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Brian May
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 01:45 PM

Guest Eliza,

You said it . . . a very gentle African Muslim. He is most welcome - in fact, any gentle race, religion, colour or creed is welcome. Hand in hand with gentleness is often respect for one's self and for others. I've no argument at all with that.

What I am appalled by, is the (let's call it well-meaning) insidious way many people are being denied the opportunity (freedom) to discuss this topic openly for fear of being labelled a racist.

I am a white male, one of our best friends is a lesbian (openly) and another a black girl - who says 'I am black', she gets mightily irritated when 'do-gooders' try and 'invent' words to describe her racial characteristics avoiding the word 'black' - what's wrong with it? Or her? Nothing. They are gentle people too - and damn good friends too.

Whether it's just the Western media, or whether it's fact, just about all the terrorist attacks in the last few years are attributed to radical Muslims - I hate them fervently - but I also hate murderers, rapists, bent politicians, priests who prey on their flocks and other perpetrators of whatever colour, creed, religion. I particularly abhor radical Christians - they are no better. The way religion (all types) is manipulated by those with a vested interest is abhorrent and more often that not flies in the face to what the religion stands for - doesn't stop it happening though.

I dislike that fact that BP have had to pay billions to the the USA when Union Carbide paid peanuts to the survivors of Bhopal, where thousands were KILLED, and only four Indians were prosecuted - where's the vicarious liability there being discharged?

The baroness appears to be addressing just part of the problem in talking about the British public's bigotry as much later in the article, almost at the end, she actually manages to say the Muslim community also have to make it clear that the radicals are not observing the tenets of that religion and are not welcome.

But their silence on these issues is deafening.

By the way, it takes a lot of courage to post, baring your soul like that. You have my respect (for what it's worth - which is quite a lot, to me).


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 02:44 PM

I believe that much more truth lies in this poem than in any holy book!

Abu Ben Adam


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 03:15 PM

Brian May,
I very much agree with you that many Muslims don't speak out against the terrorism perpetrated by the fundamentalists. It might be a good thing if they did, it would distance them from such attitudes and thereby reassure the non-Muslim population. And I agree with mauvepink, most Muslims (eg those at the mosque my husband attends) just want to be left in peace to follow their religion and lead their normal lives. I have found that the vast majority of British people are the same, they just want to live in peace. Brits really are a most tolerant set of folk. But our speaking out against fundamentalism DOES carry with it the risk of being labelled racist, Islamophobic etc. It's as if one is saying (to misquote Fawlty Towers) "Don't mention the 'M' word."


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: DonMeixner
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 03:28 PM

I have tried to come up with ironic and snappy replies to a lot of these posts. The end result is I can't. I am wondering however why I shouldn't be afraid of Islam because I see a religion I don't understand who appears to be of itself racist, anti feminist, bigoted and openly violent towards people of its own faith. Then I realize the same things once applied to Christianity that apply to Islam now. And to a large sense still do.

I don't understand why Union Carbide got away with murder and BP didn't. In both cases it was murder and it isn't fair but it happens. Maybe India has a greater depth of greed and corruption at the local governmental level so Union Carbide was able to pad a few local pockets. Maybe it's because the third world doesn't view the lives of the lowest economic classes as anything but expendable and Union Carbide knows this and exploits it. Maybe BP couldn't get away with it in the Gulf of Mexico while it might have in the Gulf of Aden. But they certainly tried.

I do know that Union Carbide is an American Company but it is not America. Just like BP is or was a British Company but it is not Britain. Just like I know that Al Qaeda is an Islamic origination but it is not Islam.

I don't understand why I am hated as an American where ever I go in the world. I am not Union Carbide. I am the citizen who gives freely of what I have in aid to the fisherman who lost his livelihood to a tsunami. I am not US Steel. I am the citizen who gives freely of what I have in aid to the street vendor who lost his home in Haiti. I am not The US Military. I am the little kid who gave of what I had in aid in UNICEF boxes to a mother in a refuge camp in the Congo (1960). Americans give because we can. Not because the government tells us to.

I don't understand why if I give so openly to people in need where ever there is need I am hated where ever I go. And I don't understand why I should be. And as I read these postings in numerous threads I think maybe I have done enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 03:44 PM

... and don't mention P word before that (PAEDOPHILE)
nor the I word before that (IRISH)
nor the G word before that (GAY)
nor the N word before that (NIGGER)
nor the F word before that (FEMINIST)

has there been a time we never had a certain section of the population not being ostracised and treated with great discrimination and hate? All those subjects have at some time caused great injustices and wrongdoings to be imposed because of the actions of a few. All have only ever come to be better understood and, with the exception of paedophilia, tolerated and accepted by greater education and a yearning to unite people. I would argue that while paedophiles are indeed demonised and hated, the problem will not go away on it's own. Only with tolerence, discussion on an open forum, and a willingness to resolve issues, can all these things be overcome and resolved. No one said the discussions would be easy but they are needed.

Maybe the next great attack should be on the H word itself. Hate never does any good, no matter the subject

Extreme fundamentalism of any kind seems to be the common denominator here. Christians have not been innocent in being fundamentalist themselves and willing to kill in their God's name. It could be argued we all have had blood on our hands at some stage in our (countries, societies or religious) history. That does not mean Christianity is inherently bad.Speaking out against anything that is hateful or bad should never be seen as hateful, racist, anti-religious, etc.

Blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called the children of God... by whoever's God. What matters is that the basic message of love, understanding and tolerence is not compromised in our quest to bring peace to this planet. Singling out one section of society will not acheive unity ever.

I'll shush

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 03:44 PM

DonMeixner, I feel the problem you outline is centred on generalisation, ie labelling an entire race or nation as bad, out of ignorance and bigotry. You sound like a very good and caring person. Please don't stop doing good things. We are all like this, making small individual efforts to help and do good. I felt your posting expressed so well that no-one should lump together all the inhabitants of a land or followers of a religion and 'hate' them. I most sincerely thank you for what you've done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 03:48 PM

mauvepink, I agree with every word.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 03:59 PM

I very much agree with you that many Muslims don't speak out against the terrorism perpetrated by the fundamentalists.

Just as the majority of "christians"[sic] don't speak out against the terrorism perpetrated by the fundagelicals.

So what's new?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: DonMeixner
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 04:09 PM

"It could be argued we all have had blood on our hands at some stage in our (countries, societies or religious) history."

Not me or anyone in my family or my immediate group of friends. I didn't sale a slave boat. I didn't lock up jews. I didn't sell small pox laden blankets to the Souix. I have committed no crimes against society and I will not accept the blame for something other white men have done for any reason. I have caused no harm in the name of God, government, or philosophy.

I am responsible only for my actions. Taking the blame for others and what they have done in the past will only cheapen the worth of all the good that you may do in the future.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 04:22 PM

What terrorism are the Christians perpetrating in the name of their religion Greg?

If you are hinting at the abuses by the Catholic Church, most on this forum blamed the hierarchy for allowing the abuse to happen then covering it up......The church was culpable in the eyese of this forum.
The fact that the abuse itself was homosexual assault in most cases, was conveniently forgotten.

By contrast the recent Muslim abuse of young white girls in the North of England, was viewed here as "nothing to do with the muslim religion, but simply criminal acts on young girls....the perpetrators could have been anybody"

Typical "liberal" double standards.....the agenda uber alles.

Catholic religion....conservative....destroy!
Islam...religious minority....close ranks!

If it wasn't so pathetic, it would be funny!


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 04:38 PM

The key to overcoming prejudice is in the education of the young! Abolish private schools, religious or not and remove all religious teaching. Educate all children together from the age of 5 upwards. They will form friendships that will last a lifetime regardless of religion or race. That is the only way to keep the older generations from poisoning young minds with the bigotry existing on all sides!


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 04:49 PM

I fully agree Sandy.....but in the minds of many here you have just condemned yourself as being bigotted against minority culture.

Of course the banning of Christian teaching would be perfectly acceptable.

As WE are a "Christian" nation and deserve any bigotry which comes our way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 06:41 PM

Aketwat

The Catholic establishment DID cover the abuse up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 06:45 PM

But more seriously, this sort of debate reminds me of the apocryphal election speech of Barry Goldwater. Or a lawyer friend of mine who used to brag that he had been told that his idea of negotiation was to put a grenade on the table, pull the pin, and walk out.

What I would actually like to do would be to read the Koran (but it's a bit long) and compare what it says, and what Muslim scholars say it says, to the received wisdom of what Islam represents.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 07:11 PM

Muslim abuse of young white girls in the North of England

Ah, the Daily Mail on Mudcat. Can you demonstrate that the young men in question performed their actions in the name of Allah, were pointing to Mecca chanting prayers during the rapes, or were following instructions in the Q'ran? Don't be so bloody daft.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Acorn4
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 07:30 PM

Support Your Neighbourhood Fanatic.

We are the instruments of God, we are the holy ones,
Heading for our destiny with holy books and guns,
I am the right hand of Allah, God bless the USA,
Vengeance is mine, Lord, go on make my day!

We live life by the book, every chapter, every verse,
But just like pictures in the clouds, we turn blessings to a
curse,
Oh, let the prophet speak as the blood runs cold,
Divine wind a coming puts a chill into the soul.

Support your neighbourhood fanatic,
Let him fix you with his gaze
On the ghost train to salvation with a smile upon his face
He can't make it to the lifeboat no matter how he tries,
Let him drag us down to doomsday on his way to paradise.

With a licence to kill just like 007,
From Drumcree up to Shankhill Road we're on our way to
heaven,
Fitted out with blinkers to make us run straight and true,
It hurts a lot to laugh when you're one of the lean and hungry
crew.

Our will it is surrendered to that great ventriloquist in the sky.
We've got one eye on God and one on home made apple pie,
We feel the need to follow, it makes us feel kinda nice,
Joyriding to Valhalla on a nuclear device...

Support your neighbourhood fanatic...

Take us to your leader so we don't have to think,
Take us to the water, duck our heads and make us drink,
Give us all the answers so we don't have to cheat.
Let's all fall in line and goosestep down the street.

Support your neighbourhood fanatic,(x2)

We are the instruments of God, we are the holy ones,


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 07:33 PM

So. It was simply coincidence that 50 out of the 53 convicted were muslim.......you are the daftie if you believe that.

Muslims are taught by their clerics that Islam is the only true religious belief.....reports from muslim women in the media state that muslim men view white women as immoral,whores, etc.

They describe these men as "monsters"

"liberal" double standards at work again?

Richard I dont see the relevance of your post, or the typically limp joke on my posting name.....if that is your best shot, I think its time you retired to the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 07:48 PM

As a point of clarification I meant "to ban all religious teaching in the public schools that all children would attend." Many aspects of minority culture are rich and vibrant and should be taught from older to younger generations. However all children would grow up spending enough time together to form their own opinions of others as they matured.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 07:55 PM

I don't think we should be banning religious teaching. There is a massive difference between religious education (imperative) and religious instruction (child abuse). Anyone not clear could look up "education" in any decent dictionary.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:07 PM


Muslims are taught by their clerics that Islam is the only true religious belief.....reports from muslim women in the media state that muslim men view white women as immoral,whores, etc.

They describe these men as "monsters"

"liberal" double standards at work again?

This whole post presupposes that the men in question were behaving in a conscious manner according to some religious edict. Where is your evidence for this? In that part of the world (which just happens to be where I come from), young Asian men tend to stick together, not least because of the racist attitudes of the white communities around them (I note that you don't address that, rather like the Daily Mail doesn't address such inconveniences). This was a despicable instance of ganging-up and I'm not about to defend what happened for one second. But it did not happen in the name of any religion. We live a country containing people-traffickers, child molesters, internet groomers of young children, drug-pushers, paedophiles and pimps. Not to speak of bankers. You have chosen to single out one particular group in one particular deprived area because it happens to fit your agenda, instead of looking at social ills in the round. Shame.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:08 PM

I'll try to get my quotes right this time. Sorry.

Muslims are taught by their clerics that Islam is the only true religious belief.....reports from muslim women in the media state that muslim men view white women as immoral,whores, etc.

They describe these men as "monsters"

"liberal" double standards at work again?


This whole post presupposes that the men in question were behaving in a conscious manner according to some religious edict. Where is your evidence for this? In that part of the world (which just happens to be where I come from), young Asian men tend to stick together, not least because of the racist attitudes of the white communities around them (I note that you don't address that, rather like the Daily Mail doesn't address such inconveniences). This was a despicable instance of ganging-up and I'm not about to defend what happened for one second. But it did not happen in the name of any religion. We live a country containing people-traffickers, child molesters, internet groomers of young children, drug-pushers, paedophiles and pimps. Not to speak of bankers. You have chosen to single out one particular group in one particular deprived area because it happens to fit your agenda, instead of looking at social ills in the round. Shame.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 03:26 AM

There are issues apart from terrorism.
Christians more than any other faith group are being persecuted and killed for their religion, by muslims, in places like Egypt, Pakistan, Indonesia, Philipines.
There is also the treatment of individuals who choose to leave Islam.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 03:31 AM

Some recent examples.
Date      Subject

20-01-2011 Eritrea: Scores of Christians arrested in major crackdown
18-01-2011 Somalia: Christian mother-of-four murdered by extremists
17-01-2011 Pakistan High Commissioner receives 50,000-name petition, pledges to protect Christians
14-01-2011 Nigeria: 13 killed in Christian village as religious tensions in Plateau soar
12-01-2011 Pakistan: Release to present petition as fears rise for Pakistani Christians
10-01-2011 50,000-name petition calls for protection of Pakistan Christians as blasphemy crisis escalates
06-01-2011 Iran: Christians hit by fresh wave of arrests
04-01-2011 Release condemns New Year bomb attacks on Christians in Iraq and Egypt
04-01-2011 Egypt and Iraq: Brutal bomb attacks usher in New Year
31-12-2010 New year fears for Christians in unstable North Korea - Release names 2011 persecution hotspots
30-12-2010 Nigeria - Release calls for restraint as Christmas violence death toll rises
30-12-2010 Sudan: Tensions rise in run-up to vote on independence for south
29-12-2010 Nigeria: Scores killed over Christmas in Plateau and Borno
29-12-2010 Nigeria Christmas killings - Islamists claim responsibility
24-12-2010 THANK YOU… for your support and prayers in 2010
23-12-2010 Iraq: Christmas services cancelled due to extremist threat
21-12-2010 Vietnam: Pastors arrested in crackdown on Christians
17-12-2010 Afghanistan: Jailed Christian denied access to lawyer
14-12-2010 Vietnam: Officials bulldoze Bible school and beat beleaguered pastor unconscious
10-12-2010 Iraq: Attacks on Christians continue as general violence subsides
03-12-2010 Egypt: Four Copts killed in clashes with security forces over church building
02-12-2010 Nigeria: Three Christians killed in night raid on Jos village
25-11-2010 Egypt: Christians pray for protection amid fear of extremist attacks
23-11-2010 Blasphemy woman's family in hiding ahead of possible presidential pardon
23-11-2010 Iraq: Pastor urges Christians to stand firm amid more bloodshed
17-11-2010 China: Guangdong house churches banned from meeting during games
10-11-2010 Israel: 'Arson' guts part of Jerusalem church and injures foreign visitors
09-11-2010 Eritrean Christians face Christmas clampdown
09-11-2010 First Christian woman sentenced to death for blasphemy in Pakistan
08-11-2010 Pakistan: First woman sentenced to death for blasphemy
05-11-2010 Nigeria: Women and children killed in brutal night raid on Plateau village
04-11-2010 Iraq: More than 40 Christian hostages killed in besieged Baghdad church
29-10-2010 Bhutan: Believer jailed for three years for screening Christian films


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 04:27 AM

There may be three separate things to consider: -

1. What the Koran (and other accepted Islamic works) say.
2. What some apparent Muslims say and do in the name of thier religion
3. What some allegedly (or nominally) Islamic states so say and do.

The point is familiar in that right wing idealogues used to produce a catalogue of wrongs they stated were committed by communist states - but failed to see that a state might call itself communist but not truly reflect communism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 04:45 AM

1. The Koran is ambiguous. People choose how to interpret it.
2. Obviously individuals in any group behave badly.
3. Little of the persecution I referred to is state sponsored.
(but some is.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 05:33 AM

Well, Keith, we could list the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who died as a direct result of the invasion of the Christian US and UK. Or the tens of thousands of Muslims in the Occupied Territories who have died as the direct result of the Christian US (and EU) propping up a despicable Israeli regime. But let's just stop there while we contemplate the flaw in both our arguments, shall we?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 05:45 AM

Imagine if Muslims in Europe were being arrested for nothing more than peacefully practicing their religion. Imagine if Muslims in South America were being sentenced to death for "insulting" Jesus. Imagine if mosques were being bombed and burned by terrorists in a growing list of Christian-majority countries.

Now here's what you don't need to imagine because it is all too real: In recent months, Christian churches have been bombed in Egypt, Iraq, Nigeria, and the Philippines. In Indonesia a mob of 1,000 Muslims burned down two Christian churches because, according to one commentator, local Islamic authorities determined there were "too many faithful and too many prayers."

In Iran, scores of Christians have been arrested. In Pakistan, a Christian woman received the death penalty for the "crime" of insulting Islam; the governor of Punjab promised to pardon her — and was then assassinated for the "crime" of blasphemy.


I could provide dozens more examples of the persecution and, in many cases, "cleansing" of Christians in what we have come to call the Muslim world. If the situation were reversed, if such a war were being waged against Muslims, it would be the top story in every newspaper, the most urgent item at the U.N., the highest priority of all do gooder human-rights groups.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 05:50 AM

Steve, that is a flaw in a different argument.
I was discussing people being persecuted and killed for their religious beliefs, in the name of another religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 05:51 AM

So you think the war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan and the persecution of Palestinians in Gaza and the almost inevitable conflict to come with Iran (who have never invaded other countries, by the way) is absolutely nothing to do with the fact that those are Muslim countries? Off with the blinkers!


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 06:09 AM

You think the Iraq war was fought for religious principle?
Now I KNOW you are daft.

There have been many reasons and excuses given for our involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan......but I've truly never heard that one before.

Better tell Tony, he's lookin' for a new one today!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 06:12 AM

The war in Afghanistan is absolutely to do with Islamist Jihadists being based there.
Iraq and Gaza we could debate elsewhere perhaps.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 06:19 AM

My muslim friend and colleague and I were recently working for a travel client and I asked him if he'd ever been to the USA. He told me (quite seriously) that they wouldn't let him in as he comes from Dewsbury. A cousin of his was refused entry for just that reason.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 06:23 AM

MEDIA STATEMENT FROM BISHOP MICHAEL NAZIR-ALI

Statement from Bishop Michael Nazir-Ali regarding comments by Baroness Warsi about prejudice towards Muslims in the UK - 20.1.11

'Diversity cannot be mere diversity. It must be consistent with the best of British values, such as human dignity, freedom and equality, which derive from the Judaeo-Christian tradition of the Bible.

'I know from personal experience that extremism as a mind-set is spreading throughout the Muslim world. We do not want it to spread here through the teaching of hate and the radicalisation of the young.

'That is why we must distinguish between those Muslims who want to live peacefully with their non-Muslim neighbours and those who wish to introduce Shari'a into this country, restrict freedom of speech and confine women to their homes, not to speak of introducing draconian punishments such as death for blasphemy recently awarded to a poor Christian woman in Pakistan.

'If relations are to improve between Muslims and other people in the world, these are the kind of issues that must be tackled.'


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 06:38 AM

I `ad that Baroness Warsi in my cab the other day. Right funny name, that. She didn`t come from Tunbridge Wells, I`ll be bound.
I said, " Morning Duchess, you`ve put the cat among the pigeons. Some posters on that Mudcat are reporting you aint too `appy with what some people may say about muslims when they`re `aving their dinner."
She said, " That`s right, Jim. If I `ad my way anybody who said nasty things about muslims would be for the chop."
I said, "Blimey girl. That dodgy restaurant up Soho, "The Islamabad Palace". If the Old Bill `ad to deal with all them that said nasty things about the cook there, the courts would be chock-a-block!!"

Whaddam I Like??


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Stu
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 06:42 AM

My post was deleted, but I was replying to the original poster.

So once again, Baroness Warsi is, or course, right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 07:34 AM

This discussion will be of a purely academic nature soon! 50 years from now, the UK will be a Islamic democracy! All the numbers point that way.
It is amazing that people have fought wars to maintain their way of life, but now the UK - and all of Western Europe - will soon be run by a Muslim creed, but before that happens ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 07:56 AM

"the best of British values, such as human dignity, freedom and equality, which derive from the Judaeo-Christian tradition of the Bible."

What unmitigated, ignorance, drivel and arrogance!


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 08:12 AM

This is who you are calling ignorant.
Michael Nazir-Ali was born in Karachi, Pakistan to Christian parents, James and Patience Nazir-Ali.[2] His father converted from Islam.[3] He attended the Roman Catholic-run St Patrick's school in Karachi and began attending Roman Catholic services and identifying as Christian at the age of 15; he was formally received into the Church of Pakistan aged 20.[4]

Academic career
Nazir-Ali attended Saint Patrick's High School, Karachi, studied economics, Islamic history and sociology at the University of Karachi (BA 1970) and studied in preparation for ordination at Ridley Hall, Cambridge (1970). He undertook further postgraduate studies in theology at St Edmund Hall, Oxford (BLitt 1974, MLitt 1981), Fitzwilliam College, Cambridge (MLitt 1976) (where he joined the Cambridge University Liberal Club)[5] and the Australian College of Theology (ThD 1983). He has also studied at the Center for the Study of World Religions at Harvard Divinity School and in 2005 he was awarded the Lambeth DD. He has a number of other doctorates. His particular academic interests include comparative literature and comparative philosophy of religion. In addition to teaching appointments in colleges and universities in many parts of the world, he has been a tutor in the University of Cambridge, Senior Tutor of Karachi Theological College, and Visiting Professor of Theology and Religious Studies in the University of Greenwich.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 08:16 AM

Then he should know better than to make such a totally stupid statement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 08:17 AM

You can say that in your opinion he is wrong, and use your own deep knowledge and experience to show why.
You can not say he is ignorant of these issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 08:45 AM

Nazir-Ali's scholarship and his ideas about morality are based on the belief in a supernatural entity. Take that away and it's built on sand. It also dismisses the ideas of non-Christian moral philosophers from Confucius to Dawking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 08:52 AM

But you can dismiss the informed opinion of a world class authority on the history of Islam, world religions and the comparative study of the literature and philosophy of religions.
OK, but tell us why we should dismiss him and listen to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 09:38 AM

"I don't understand why Union Carbide got away with murder and BP didn't."


This is a powerful and excellent point.



"But, perhaps she should look at the causes and address those too. It's back to that 'old' adage.

'Not every Muslim is a terrorist, but every terrorist seems to be a Muslim.'"

This isn't an adage.

It is a Roy Chubby Brown joke.


I'm Irish.

It used to be us who were "all terrorists"


"What I am appalled by, is the (let's call it well-meaning) insidious way many people are being denied the opportunity (freedom) to discuss this topic openly for fear of being labelled a racist."


Discussing it openly and intelligently is fine.


Repeating NF slogans like the one above will get you accused of characteristics you don't like.



Ake asks: "What terrorism are the Christians perpetrating in the name of their religion Greg?"


Look at the stats Ake for America, pipe bombs, nail bombs, some in mosques, shootings etc etc


Then he talks about "muslim abuse of young white girls"


Ake you've already been thoroughly spanked on that one in another thread - have you come here to tell the same lie again?


Then you say something about "agenda above all else" whilst banging on yet again on your "liberals drum"

"ake would you like sone tea?" - "typical 'liberal' promoting your agenda" - "no I asked you if you want tea" - " you're denying me my freedom of speech"

No wonder you spend your nights wandering round the red light district.



Keith,


"The war in Afghanistan is absolutely to do with Islamist Jihadists being based there."

Wrong.

The war, overt and covert, for control of central Asia, has been going on for over a hundred years.

The rise of Islamic extremism in Afghanistan is a SYMPTOM of a hundred years of foreign interference, not the reason for it.



Richie Black says:

"Imagine if Muslims in Europe were being arrested for nothing more than peacefully practicing their religion"

You mean like wearing a headscarf?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 09:45 AM

Lox, I do not agree with your explanation for the war in Afghanistan, but that discussion has been done to death here already.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 09:48 AM

Keith - who leveller is has no relevance.

What matters is if his argument is stronger or weaker than yours.

If his argument bears scrutiny then it is as valid as anyones argument regardless of the source or the person promoting it.

It is the relative strength and weaknesss of ideas that metters, not who promotes them.


Some people resist developing their ideas and ccling on to the same ideas their whole life and bolster tyem contiuously regardless of how thoroughly they have been discredited.



And lets be clear.


The idea that Britains values aand civilization are built on Christianity is utter Twaddle, unless you BELIEVE it to be true.

Surprise surprise, a Bishop believes that the source of values and civilization is the Bible.


His credentiials have no bearing as his comments are based on FAITH as leveller has said.


Your gleefully brandished 'trump card' is nothing but a squib.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 09:50 AM

Well Keith, the war for dominance in central Asia has been going on longer than political Islamism and that is a fact regardless of whether you agree or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 10:03 AM

I do not believe in your war for dominance Lox, but our opinions can both be dismissed.
What do we know?
If you backed up your opinion with expert testimony, it could not be so easily dismissed.
The Bishop might well be wrong, but his opinions can not be said to be based on ignorance, and it is arrogant to just dismiss them because of who he is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 10:25 AM

Muslims are taught by their clerics that Islam is the only true religious belief.....

As are Catholics and "christians"[sic] and every other religious sect on the face of the earth and likely throughout the galaxy.

Aain, so what?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 01:21 PM

Correct greg, but the difference is in how non believers are tolerated.
It is much more prevalent among Muslims to believe they have a duty to punish a non believer who by stating his belief blasphemes against Mohammed (peace and blessings be upon Him), or a Muslim who converts, or just a non believer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 01:49 PM

the difference is in how non believers are tolerated...

Ahem. You've obviously not spent a lot of time in the rural United States- particularly below the Mason-Dixon line-or in Israel, or in China or in India - or, apparently, in most of the inhabited world world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 01:55 PM

Keith,

"The Bishop might well be wrong, but his opinions can not be said to be based on ignorance, and it is arrogant to just dismiss them because of who he is."

Well done Keith.

You've mastered the principle at the centre of my point.


Now lets see if you are able to apply it in every circumstance - i.e. whether you are able to apply it to leveller, whose opinions you have disregarded because of who is is, and indeed who he isn't.


The Bishop has one view, leveller has another.


You stated that the Bishops is more reliable because of who he is, not because you had evidence to support his view, nor even an argument of your own to defend it.

You are guilty of dismissing someones view because of who they are, not me.

I dismissed his view because I disagree with it wholeheartedly.

The idea that the Bible is the root of all civil and moral behaviour in Britain does not need me to do any research to be dismissed as palpable bollocks.

It has informed our moral code and played an important cultural role, but it is not the source.

In addition, these comments presuppose the notion that England is somehow more moral and civilized than countries that are non christian which is a horrendous caricature of the British colonial mindset that I grew up amongst in Hong Kong - a mindset which I might add was not exclusive to the British, but to some of their 'properly educated' colonial subjects.


And your double standards "don't dismiss people because of who they are" rhetoric, after having dismissed Leveller specifically on the grounds of who he is do not serve to bolster the argument you have "objectively" "reported" for us.

Because after all, not being the kind of person who ever advances an argument of your own, the views you post are chosen purely out of impartial interest.

Nothing left for you to hide behind I'm afraid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 01:58 PM

"Ahem. You've obviously not spent a lot of time in the rural United States- particularly below the Mason-Dixon line-or in Israel, or in China or in India - or, apparently, in most of the inhabited world world."

Or indeed lived amongst Moslems, which I have for a year and a half. And I can inform you that it is much better to be a white person living in a Moslem community than a Moslem living in a white community.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 02:12 PM

i have read many accounts of muslims persecuting christians but thankfully many muslims live peacefully alongside christians and sometimes take a stand against their fellow religionists in defense of their christian neighbours.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 02:19 PM

Timothy McVeigh was not a Muslim. Neither was Loughner. Nor were the bomb planters in Spokane.

The White Ring zealots who want to bomb mosques are not Muslims either.

Nor are the American Nazi Party, the White Citizen's Council, and the rising groups
of incoherent militias forming in places like Idaho.

You wanna' talk terrorism? Look at the US foreign policy in Iraq and Afghanistan, not to mention Pakistan, Yemen, Indonesia and Oil-pipeline-astan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 02:24 PM

That`s nice, Stringsinger, but saying someone else is doing wrong does not necessarily make Muslims right. They have as much racism in their religion as do Christians and Jews. Good Muslims, Christians and Jews (and many other religious people) don`t buy into the bullshit. Period.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 05:45 PM

"but saying someone else is doing wrong does not necessarily make Muslims right"

He didn't "say they were right."

He responded to the comment that "all the terrorists are muslim"

He pointed out that it isn't true.


He didn't "say they were right."

He didn't say anything about 'them.'


"they" are people, each with his/her own point of view.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 05:49 PM

I think Stringsinger is able to speak for himself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 06:36 AM

Lox, if I said that I was sure Stephen Hawking was arrogantly and ignorantly wrong about the physics of black holes, I think that you would dismiss me until I put up some other expert opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 06:43 AM

You think the Iraq war was fought for religious principle?
Now I KNOW you are daft.

There have been many reasons and excuses given for our involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan......but I've truly never heard that one before.

Better tell Tony, he's lookin' for a new one today!!


If you insult me I'll just call you Achy Tony, OK? So, Achy Tony (or, if you're a girl, Achy Toni), I said nothing about fighting for religious principle, did I? I asked whether you thought that these wars had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the countries in question were Muslim (or, to qualify myself slightly, predominantly Muslim). Spot the subtle difference between what I actually said and what you say I said. However, water off a duck's back, no doubt. You misinterpret, disagree with your misinterpretation of my words, and insult. A common enough procedure hereabouts. Quack.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 11:40 AM

But you didn't Keith, you told me that one very well educated Bishop argued that the basis of Morality and civilization in Britain is the Bible.

In the process he ignors the influence of the Romans and the Vikings, not to mention a whole myriad of other cultural ingredients that have informed British civilization and Moral values over the centuries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 12:18 PM

It is about time that we collectively extended to them the rights and respect other citizens enjoy. I am not suggesting special treatment for Muslims. They should be subject to the law of the land and the same democratic scrutiny as the rest of us.

Virulent anti-Semitism or homophobia being preached in British mosques should be exposed and rooted out. But by exactly the same token, Muslims should be given the same protection from insults or ignorant abuse as other minority groups.

They are our fellow citizens, we nevertheless misrepresent them and in certain cases we persecute them. Our attitude can lead only to estrangement and alienation. And therein lies the greatest danger.

Because if we continue to demonise Muslims, we make it all the easier for Al Qaeda to find recruits from within those communities. Islamophobia will backfire on us  -  and simply magnify the very threat it presumes to address.

Also don't forget that ex- Labour foreign secretary Jack Straw suggested women who wear veils can make community relations harder. And recall Polly Toynbee of the Guardian, who likes to be thought of as a model of political correctness and a champion of the oppressed. As long ago as 1997 she wrote: 'I am an Islamophobe, and proud of it.'


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 01:04 PM

In response to the above comment,I thought "guest" posts were to be removed from this thread ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 01:28 PM

There have been many objections to the use of the term 'Islam phobic' and arguments that the term 'antiMuslim racism' would be more accurate were it not for the obvious objection that
Muslims are not a race and that therefore hostility towards them cannot, by definition, be a form of racism.

One such objection was voiced by Polly Toynbee

In 1997 the journalist Polly Toynbee in reaction to the Runnymede report published that year wrote

'I am an Islamophobe,… I am also a Christophobe.
If Christianity were not such a spent force in this country, if it were powerful and dominant as it once was, it would still be every bit as damaging as Islam is in those theocratic states in its thrall… If I lived in Israel, I'd feel the same way about Judaism…'

It is very easy and pretty despicable to take a few words out of any context and twist them to mean something very different
If anyone has any doubts about Polly Toynbee's secular humanist and anti racist stance they would be better informed reading the whole of one of her columns

"The BNP has been allowed to make the weather by abusing Islam as a proxy for race in their vile literature. They have done it so successfully that criticising Islam seems to ignore the attacks on Muslims that have increased by nearly 50%. Robert Kilroy-Silk's mindless anti-Arab tirade only made matters worse, as his attacks on Sharia law blended nastily into racist smears. He made it harder for others to challenge some of the savage passages in the Koran, which apologists are eager to smooth over.
"Islamophobia" blurs racism and anti-religion dangerously. It's interesting to see how Christian activists are now keen to make common cause with Muslims, drawing on their heat and passion. (The far left is doing the same, even less convincingly.) Far from a Clash of Civilisations between Islam and Christianity, in Britain they join together over religious broadcasting, schools and other rights. Officialdom is easily frightened of Islam, with good reason, treading carefully in a minefield. There is an essentially craven tendency to give in to the notion that religious belief deserves some special treatment by the state. Labour has opened 60 new faith state schools - including a Seventh Day Adventist one.
Nowhere more than in schools should that be resisted. It is the state's duty to give every child an open-minded, free-thinking education, opening windows away from the cultural narrowness of each child's family background. So where is the vigorous campaign against religious schools? Parents want good schools, and might prefer not to have to get on their knees in their local church to get into them. It is extraordinary that secular Britain is rushing to re-invent religion and give state aid to promote superstitions of every hue."

Excerpt from
The Guardian, Friday 11 June 2004

lox (out of town)


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Brian May
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 04:30 PM

A quote from the BBC website:

"Afshan Azad, 21, who played Padma Patil, a classmate of the teenage wizard, in the blockbuster Hollywood films based on JK Rowling's children's books, feared for her life during the three-hour ordeal, Manchester Crown Court heard.
She was punched, dragged around by her hair and strangled by her brother Ashraf Azad, 28, who threatened to kill her after he caught her talking on the phone to her Hindu boyfriend on May 21 last year, the court was told.
During the row at the family home in Longsight, Manchester, which also involved her mother and father, she was branded a ''slag'' and a ''prostitute'' and told: ''Marry a Muslim or you die!''
The actress, who now lives in London, had pleaded for leniency from the court, begging the judge not to jail her older brother.
But Judge Roger Thomas QC sent him to prison for six months after he pleaded guilty to the assault."

It's not just we 'bigots and racists' that are 'bigots and racists' is it? This is what he did to a family member, what would he do to us . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 07:17 PM

So, Brian, let's hear you judging the whole of white Britain on the strength of what Fred West did. Perhaps you'd care now to make the case, with full evidence of course, that Ashraf Azad was typical of male Muslims and is supported in his actions by the Muslim community.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 08:00 PM

Good stuff, Lox, by the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 05:19 AM

Another large number of exclusively Pakistani muslims appeared in court yesterday charged on 61 counts of sexual abuse and grooming os young british girls aged between 13 and 15

The story, carried by the Times, states that these are first cases in the UK to brought under section 53 of the 2003 sexual offences act, which outlaws "trafficking" within the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 05:27 AM

Once again it is evident that the "liberals" here are agenda driven.

Where is all the horror at the crimes and sympathy for the victims that we saw in the "priest abuse" threads.

This thread has shown these people for the hypocrits they are.
This thread has been all about deflecting blame from the perpetrators and the ideology which motivates their actions.

You should be ashamed of yourselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 09:18 AM

"Where is all the horror at the crimes and sympathy for the victims that we saw in the "priest abuse" threads."


Ake shows no concern for the victims or the crime.


His concern is about "moslem attitudes to white women"


That and his beliefs concerning "liberals" which he refers to in every post he makes.

i.e. his anti "liberal" agenda.

In light of these facts, it is funny to read akes unwitting self parody.

"Once again it is evident that the "liberals" here are agenda driven."


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 09:23 AM

I was written to recently by a friend who has an interest in this subject, and who had this to say.

"I'm amused by Steve Shaw's reaction to 'our' post :)

How about this one - worth risking the wrath of richie for?

This thread SHOULD be about disentangling the fact that race and religion are interwoven with each other as represented in the term Islamophobia.

When European men traffic women or groom vulnerable young girls on the street they are rarely referred to as 'Christians' whereas British born men of Pakistani origin are automatically referred to as 'Muslims' in the media and posts like akes
I can't recall the recent (or earlier) English paedophile ring preying on nursery children being defined by religion

In fact, many people in the UK do not follow the strictures of the religion they may have family allegiance to
Having a Muslim or Christian name does not necessarily mean practising that religion; clearly the young Asian men mentioned in connection with grooming pubescent (British) girls are not following the teachings of Islam

What disturbs me as well as Barbara Ellen in The Observer, Sunday 9 January 2011* is the fact that much of non-Asian Britain is apparently comfortable to view many British girls as drunken, worthless, sub-human trash.
If you want corroboration of this just wade through some of the threads on mudcat where some members have parroted the media role in portraying endless coverage of drunken "ladettes" out on the lash and being sick into gutters etc

While Mohammed Shafiq's comments about Asian men not viewing white women as equal or valuable as "their own daughters, their own sisters" this applies equally to anyone, male or female, British or otherwise who implies that these 'sluttish' young women may be contributing the risk of rape etc while placing their own family on higher moral ground
As Ellen notes in her article,
"Whenever sex workers are murdered, there is an effort to frame them as daughters, sisters and mothers, precisely because this is the easiest way to humanise them.""


Link


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 09:43 AM

The victims are not all sluts.
They were not all picked up on the streets late at night.
Those ones tended to be girls within the care system.
Girls from respectable families have given their stories of being enticed away from shopping malls in daylight.
Not all white either.
Just not muslim.
They are off limits to young muslim men.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 09:45 AM

Perhaps Lox, it is the influence of pre dark age Romans and Vikings to blame?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 10:05 AM

Keith, I thought you might have understood my earlier post, but it seems I overestimated your powers of interpretation.

To spell out the point: British civilization, culture and ethics are an amalgam of accumulated influences, including the bible, but are not informed solely by the bible.

In fact, even British interpretation of the bible was informed by the numerous cultural and ethical influences of the day.

These influences include indigenous pagan culture, the work of greek philosophers, cultural inheritance from Roman times, not to mention cuktural diffusion through trade and invasion, inwards and outwards, from the vikings, the normans, etc etc etc (lots of etceteras covering hundreds of years.

This is very easy to understand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 10:29 AM

In this interview, Anne Cryer explains the cultural background to these crimes against children.
She was a local Labour MP and victims' families had come to her for help.
http://wn.com/Ex_Keighley_MP_Ann_Cryer_Defends_Jack_Straw's_Comments_On_UK_Muslim_Child-Rape_Gangs


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 10:41 AM

A victim describes what happened to her, aged 12.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00x97hr#p00d7f3g


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 11:08 AM

Thanks Keith, that puts things into perspective and illustrates the "liberal" double standards which I referred to earlier.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 02:02 PM

The victims are not all sluts.

And if they were - whatever a slut is supposed to be in people's eyes and by who's definitions - would that make it okay for them to be used as sex slaves? I think not

There are all sorts of double standards and one of them is looking down on women who may provide easy or paid sex for men. They are all someone's daughter...

I hope and believe that Kieth did not mean this to look how I have taken it but I do think a distinction is drawn that need not be. They were and are all women (and I dare say it may happen to young men too if the surface was scratched deep enough). Sorry if it seems I am touchy about this but the truth is I am. The thing they all had in common is that they are women... THAT is all that is important

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 02:08 PM

So to clarify the key points in kieths video.

1st. a spokesman for Moslem group "ramadhan" expresses concern aboout the behaviour of a groop of young pakistani men.

But Ake would like us to accept his view that the young Pakistani men represent "muslim attitudes" to white girls, and not the spokesman for "Ramadhan"

2nd. The ex Keighley MP says that she was aware of young Pakistani men grooming White girls for sex ...

... but she didn't go to the police ... she went to visit some old Pakistani men and asked them what they were going to do about it.

What did she expect them to do about it?

Why didn't she go to the police?

If I had been them I would have said - "why don't you go to the police?"

How is an old man who isn't in a paedophile gang responsible for the actions of a padophile gang?

She suggests that somehow the "community elders" whetever the fuck they are meant to be, are somehow responsible for these crimes.

Is the local vicar responsible when a white christian commits a crime?

What utter bollocks.

She suggests that "community leaders" could stop organized crime and organized criminals by talking to their parents.

What planet is she from?

Keith refers to her words as an "explanation of the cultural background".

She has done nothing that even vaguely approximates any such explanation. All she has done is blame "the moslem community" for the crimes of an organized crime gang.

No doubt Keith will hide behind his facade of impartial reporting of the views of others, and no doubt he will present himself as a mere collector of relevant information, but the fact remains that on this thread, he is, in his usual disingenuous way, sticking up for the bigotted narrow minded view.


To be 100% clear about Ake's position:

He did not start a thread about Child abuse by pakistani gangsters in the context of concern for children. He brought it up as a trump card in a discussion about race.

Ake couldn't give a fuck about those girls, his motivation is to regurgitatew his "liberal agenda" theory for the millionth time and to prove his point about Moslems thinking they're better than us which he has referred to in previous threads.


What a sad pair you make.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 03:48 PM

Mauvepink, I only used that word because Lox used it a few posts before.

"While Mohammed Shafiq's comments about Asian men not viewing white women as equal or valuable as "their own daughters, their own sisters" this applies equally to anyone, male or female, British or otherwise who implies that these 'sluttish' young women may be contributing the risk of rape"

We are anyway talking about children.

Lox, Cryer said that the families had failed to get the police to take action.
Listen again on the second link, after the victim and her parents' testimonies.
Do you think she is lying about all this.
This is a repectable politician, of the Left, with extensive knowledge and first hand experience, and you dismiss her because it conflicts with you ideology that some groups are above criticism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 04:58 PM

Interesting that anyome assumes sluts are female.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 05:20 PM

I must say first off that I was only skimming in the hope that, in the usual Mudcat manner, the same old arguments would put me to sleep. But I must say one was new to me...

And I can inform you that it is much better to be a white person living in a Moslem community than a Moslem living in a white community.

How long have being white and moslem been mutualy exclusive? Does this meen that all white people are christian while everyone else is moslem? Or are only black people moslem? What about the Chinese? What about hindus? What colour are they?

Damn. I'll never get to sleep now...

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 06:17 PM

Thank you for clearing that up Kieth and apologies. I had missed that.

And 999, fair point, but the dictionary makes no mention of male sluts in it's definition either and there was no assumption being made... I have only ever heard it used perjoratively against women

slut [slVt] noun
    1             a dirty slatternly woman

    2             an immoral woman

    3 (Archaic)             a female dog

            [C14: of unknown origin]
        *sluttish adjective
        *sluttishly adverb
        *sluttishness noun

Personally I have never heard slut used against a man except in some way some would call humour and it usually refers to their rakishness or cad like behaviour. I could well be wrong. The urban dictionary uses several definitions.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 06:21 PM

Keith,

1. Reread Mauvepinks post. She does not object to use of the word slut, but to your distinction that not all the girls are sluts.

My post refers to attitudes toward white girls of people who see them as sluts, and points out that this is a stereotype that is promoted by the mainstream and not just by Pakistanis.

Your post suggests that while some aren't sluts, some are.

Mauvepink diplomatically and correctly points out that characterizing ANY woman as a slut, whether you are Pakistani, white, or even KEITH then you are pandering to offensive ideas.



Blimey - you really aren't very good at paying attention are you.

Equally, The reasons I criticized your Keighley MP are listed in my post.

If you can refute them then do so.

If you can't then they stand unchallenged.

Putting words in my mouth does not constitute a refutation.

In terms of substance, the second link is exactly the same as the first. Anne cryer suggests that if "community leaders" (again - whoever the fuck they are supposed to be) tell the parents of pakistani boys to respect young white girls, that organized criminals will stop forcing them into prostitution.

There is nothing new in that report except that she says that IN HER OPINION, young asian boys see young white girls as sex objects.

Does Keith really believe that a few old men giving a sermon on this subject will stop organized criminals from operating?

Come on - answer that question - because THAT is her point.

Looks like Keith really is clutching at straws to support Akes anti Islamic agenda.

In addition, judging by his cooments on the subject of "sluts", he appears to believe that he is somehow qualified to classify women as either non-sluts or sluts.

This is pretty serious as it shows that, if there are attitudes towards the alleged promiscuity and sluttishness of white women in England, that he is as guilty of having them as any Pakistani Moslem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 06:32 PM

In essence I was simply saying that whether a slut (whatever one perceives one to be) or not, no-one deserves to be made a sex slave by anyone. By inference it could be suggested that it would be okay if they were a slut. My tetchiness reacted to that disctinction possibly being made.

In the same way as in the past I have argued that female prostitutes should be afforded the same dignity as all other women when one gets murdered/assaulted. What job they do, what morals they have, what people perceive them as, does not mean we should look down on them in any way.

Semantics, maybe, but I felt the need to point it out.

Apologies for any sidetrack to the OP

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 06:38 PM

Dave,

To clarify the post that you refer to, I lived for a year and a half in a moslem area, and of those Moslems, most were Pakistani or Bangladeshi, but there were a few Somalis and some whose racial background I didn't know.

There was also one white Moslem woman.

With the exception of her, myself, my partner at the time and my daughter, I could go for weeks at a time without seeing any white folks in that area. Consequently I tended to view the Moslems in the area where I lived as collectively being non-white.

The point of my story is that I knew the names of every person on my street, and their kids, and they knew us and invited us into their homes and shops to receive their hospitality frequently.

Most of them did not venture from that part of town because they were afraid to, and many with good reason.

A shop keeper whose curtain shop was 4 doors down from my house used to bring his kids to work when they weren't at school because they received constant abuse at home. They had faeces put through their letterbox, the kids were frequently on the receiving end of racial abuse and they were often threatened with dangerous dogs.

There were numerous people who had good reason to hate and distrust white people, but they took me and my little one into their community with modest warmth.

If anyone else on here has lived among moslems for a comparable length of tme they have not said so.

Hence, I can tell you that it is better to be white in a moslem area that moslem in a white area.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 06:52 PM

In addition to my last post to dave,

The "community" I lived in did not have "leaders". It was like any other community in Britain ie full of people living their own lives.

The idea that moslems are one big cohesive community led by bearded patriarchs is a total fantasy.

Those religious leaders who posture as community leaders have about as much power to "lead" their communities as the archbishop of canterbury does to lead young white boys.

ie - everyone is very respectful at mosque/church, but afterwards they slope off for a quick fag behind the bike sheds.

And I can't believe I have to clarify this point, but these supposed community leaders don't have the ability to control gangsters and racketeers in their community by having a word with their parents.

To have this kind of sway they would need to be in the gang.

So unless we are suggesting that all moslems are in the same gang, then we have to accept that anne cryers attempts to make Imams and prominent pakistani business men responsible for the crimes of a predominantly pakistani gang are nothing short of slander.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 06:56 PM

.



    Who likes satire?

    Here's Adil Ray satirizing the whole "community leader" lie.

    Mr Khan ..... Community leader!




.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 01:39 AM

She was an MP for an area with a large Pakistani community, and her vote largely came from that community.
A respected and knowledgeable authority on this issue.
But her testimony undermines Lox's position, so she must be lying.
I choose to believe her over you Lox.
Others must choose for themselves.
Here is the experience of a senior police officer.
Another liar Lox?
http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/8782968.What_Straw_said_so_carefully_is_true/?action=complain&cid=9055350


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 05:17 AM

Keith.

You don't know what testimony is do you.

Anne cryer gave her OPINION about the cause and the solution to the problem of organized gangs in her cnstituency.

She provides no testimony or evidence to support her opinion.

So whether she's a Liar or not is irrelevant.

Her words shine no light on the issue except to show that she blames the moslem community as a whole, led by their "community leaders", for the crimes of an organized gang.

You have not even attempted to refute that point.


As for your police inspector,


Here's the crux of his testimony. (Quoted for Keiths benefit as his english comprehension skills leave a lot to be desired)

"What no-one is saying is that the Pakistani community is responsible for the majority of sex crimes: This is just an element of sex crimes in general.

This is a specific problem within a group of people in a minority community."

Again, none of this supports the view that 1. the moslem community is in any way responsible, or 2. that so called "community leaders" have any influence over the activities of organized criminals.


The main Mafia groups in New York ar Families of Italian origin.

Should we make the "italian community" responsible for their crimes?

Should we make "italian community leaders" responsible for not preventing these crimes?

Keith, with ever post you nail your colours more firmly to the mast.


After several attempts to pretend to engage in dabate with me you have failed to even attempt to address ANY of the points I have made, much less refute them in any way.

The best you can do is put words in my mouth and state that you will not be moved.


Keith lacks the most basic powers of reasoning, english comprehension and doesn't understand the difference between the words "testimony" and "opinion".

In addition, he seems determined to support the view that this issue is not about organized crime or child abuse, but is a cultural problem concerning "moslem attitudes".

Meanwhile Ake sits dribbling on the sidelines waving his flag and chanting "keef keef" as his hero digs himself into a more and more preposterous hole.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 05:21 AM

Keith

The other quote from the policemans testimony,

"In recent years we have seen it specifically with victims aged just 14, 15 or 16-years-old who are out on the streets at night and groomed by predatory gangs."

note Keith the word "gangs".

Not "moslem attitudes to white girls", just gangs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 05:37 AM

And what kind of gangs does he say they are?
Anne Cryer was talking about her own actual experience.
It was a testimony.

We were all outraged at the exposures about a small minority of priests sexually abusing children.
We would all be outraged if the perpetrators were a minority of Israelis, US soldiers, BNP activists...
For many, the outrage becomes a shrug when the perpetrators are a minority of Muslims and the victims white.
That is the double standard that Ake rightly points out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 05:40 AM

By Mick Gradwell »


FORMER Detective Superintendent Mick Gradwell, who was East Lancashire's top detective when he retired from the force last year, tells why he agrees with Jack Straw's controversial comments on sex grooming.

WHEN I came to Blackburn in the 1970s, one of my main issues was the gangs of Asian men outside the old nightclub on top of the shopping centre who were picking up drunk white girls, specifically to abuse them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 05:46 AM

No-one yet (as far as I have seen) has moved from "Oh, they were Muslims so there must be something wrong with Islam" to actually examining whether there is any reason for Islam to have caused or contributed to the causes of the crimes in question.

For that reason, it seems to me, the assertion I set out in quotes above, must be a matter of prejudice.

There is some tension in life experiences. We rightly criticise those who fail to learn from experience. But, in my lifetime, there is a group of people (not Muslims) with whom I have repeatedly had unhappy professional experiences. Should I expect a repetition of such experiences, or would that be prejudice?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 05:52 AM

Perhaps we'll hear an outcry against a minority of white parents/carers who allow their very underage daughters/charges to go out and get drunk, in rough parts of town at that. Or against a minority of older kids who got them the booze, or a minority of landlords who served them the drink. Or against the premature sexualisation of young girls that makes so much money for "the fashion industry" (I mean, how sick is that?). Ah, life's so simple, Keith. All you have to do is to point at the one target that best fits your personal prejudices and you're away...


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 06:05 AM

Keith,

All you're doing is showing us again that the gangs in this case are predominantly made up of Pakistanis.

You have shownb nothing that supports the view that this is a problem of "Moslem attitudes", nor have you shown how talking to "community leaders" is going to stop these gangs.

It is organized crime.

The only actual testimony from Anne Cryer is that she was approached by concerned white parents and that instead of going to the police she went to talk to "community leaders".

What does that testimony tell us about Islamic attitudes to young white girls?

Fuck all thats what.

The rest is her personal assertion that the solution is for the "moslem community" and its "leaders" to take responsibility.

There is nothing anywhere that you have posted or that she has said that shows how the actions of these gangs is in any way the responsibility of these "community leaders".

Your wilful refusal to engage with any of my arguments, and your wilful determination to support the insinuation that it is a Moslem problem and not an organized crime problem (without actually admitting that thats what you think so you can pretend that you are impartial) supports the assertion by many on here that you hold bigotted views yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 06:07 AM

I agree that there is an issue about parenting and the security of children in care.
I hope that is not being offered as an excuse for the sexual abuse of children.
Anne Cryer gave a very plausible explanation of why these abusers are mostly from that community.
It is nothing to do with Islam.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 06:17 AM

Thankyou Keith - I appreciate that.

I'm sorry for taking such an aggressive line, but it is an im[ortant issue.

Ake, I hope you are paying attention.

Ask a teenage boy of any religious or racial background which girls he fancies, or indeed who he thinks are sluts, and he will talk about the pretty girls who dress in cool clothes - whether those girls are Asian, Black, White or however else you may wish to categorize them.

Objectification of women, and mainstream classificaation of girls as "sluts" or "non sluts" on whetever arbitrary grounds, combined with the cold hearted cynicism of organized crime are the problem.

In this case, the gangs are comprisedd mainly, though not exclusively, by men of Pakistani origin.

They do not represent Islamic attitudes to women.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 07:12 AM

So, why not Irish gangs?
Chinese?
The muslim communty does not encourage its girls to have relationships.
Marriages are usually arranged, and usually with partners in Pakistan.
Their unmarried young men must abstain or find sex outside their own community, but not have lasting relationships.
Paedophilia is not endorsed, but the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) took a child bride.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 07:38 AM

Child marriage was accepted here until recently.
Adultery itself is unislamic.
But it happens.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 08:09 AM

Bottling up sexual urges gives you people as fucked up as Sigmund Freud.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 11:15 AM

In all cultures there are bound to be good and bad in any community, but since the Blair/Bush attack on Iraq, 9/11 and the London bus bombing that followed it's as if they would rather we were still just a little bit jittery about the Muslim community. As far as Muslim men regarding white women as sluts there are quite a few white men who do too and who groom young girls into the sex industry. Young runaways are often very young girls befriended by 'a nice' white man and often accompanied by a woman to seem even more plausible to lure them in, offering food and shelter and before they know it they get hooked onto drugs and prostitution. It is a despicable thing to do no matter who does it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 02:54 PM

This problem has nothing to do with "boy fancying girl"
It is the cold blooded trafficking of young girls, some of them merely children.

I have zero tolerance of child sexual abuse, the abuse of young women or the abuse of teenage boys......it is an evil practice full stop! Whether perpetrated by muslims or homosexual Catholic priests
I make no distinction....I would make sure the bastards were locked up for a very long time.

The current set of crimes appear to be perpetrated exclusively by muslims, against exclusively non muslim girls...mainly white girls.

Why do they not attack muslim girls, if it were solely to do with hormones they would not be so particular about their victims
I agree with Mrs Cryer our children especially young girls are looked upon as immoral sluts by a large number of muslim men....and as Straw says ....easy meat!

I for one resent all forms of racism....."liberals" prefer to pick and chose!


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 03:54 PM

There are Chinese gnags trafficking people - I know about them too - I grew up in Hong Kong.

There are also Africans, and Russians Trafficking underage girls.

The Gangs that have recently been uncovered in England are Pakistani.

They are all equally evil.

As for Irish Gangs, I think the Priests who abused boys and girls in schools and in the laundry's and were protected by the organization that defended them were effectively organized criminals too.

In the Magdalene Laundry's the girls who were abused were also classified by those who abused them as "sluts" etc

It is not a Moslemn Problem.

Ake's argument is on life support.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 05:28 PM

This particular crime, dubbed street grooming, is the domain of male muslim gangs according to the people in a position to know.
There is lots of other dreadful crime for which other groups are responsible, but let us accept that this is a crime that the culture (not the religion) of the Pakistani community is largely responsible for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 05:28 PM

I for one resent all forms of racism...

Surely what you mean is "Don't get me wrong, I'm not a racist, but..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 05:35 PM

but let us accept that this is a crime that the culture (not the religion) of the Pakistani community is largely responsible for.

No I won't.

That would be to say that British Pakistanis as a rule endorse organized crime.

That is an outrageous slander.

These criminals represent nothing more than the abhorrent nature of organized crime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 05:38 PM

let us accept that this is a crime that the culture (not the religion) of the Pakistani community is largely responsible for.

Let us accept that hard work, supporting their children in school, leading peaceable and respectable lives and wanting a bit of security and prosperity for their families are attributes that the culture of the Pakistani "community" is largely responsible for (I taught in secondary schools in east London for 13 years so I do know a bit). That and having to put up with prejudice and racist attitudes. Still, go ahead and focus finely on just those things you've read about that feed your prejudice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Smedley
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 05:59 PM

I note that Akenaton repeatedly refers to clerical child abuse as "homosexual", yet not once refers to this abuse of white girls by Asian men as "heterosexual".

How frightfully surprising.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 01:45 AM

Please try to debate without shouting "racist."
As long as I am making reasoned posts, based on evidence, just point out where I go wrong.
Obviously that will require a little more thought.
If I may make myself guilty of the same, is it not racist to put any one ethnic group on a pedestal and make them above criticism?

I hope you accept now that this is a real issue.
A plausible, non racist explanation has been given for it.
Biologically we are all the same.
A young man of any ethnicity will find it hard to live a saintly life under the cultural pressures found here.
Marriage partners are arranged at a young age, but relationships with girls are not allowed.
Under such a regime, some young men of any ethnic group would be tempted to go and get sex from where they can.
That seems to be what is happening here.
If I have got that wrong say so.
"Racist" is not the answer to everything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 02:58 AM

I note, that the racism practiced against young UK girls is not condemned AS racism by our egalitarian "liberals"


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 03:54 AM

"As long as I am making reasoned posts, based on evidence, just point out where I go wrong."

I already have.

I'll do it again.

You argue that the Moslem Pakistani community are responsible for the actions of organized criminals.

You present no evidence whatsoever to support this view.

The closest thin you have to support this view is a video of a politician expressing the same view.

NO evidence - just a slander on Pakistani Moslems.

You discriminate on Racial and religious grounds and state that that is the significant factor in these crimes being committed.

That by definition is a racist argument.


Ake, The attitudes to white girls are not just held by Pakistani men, but are widespread in the media.

YOU have expressed these ideas when you argued that women are sometimes responsible for their own rape.

They were asking for it ... hmmm?

Most of these Gangsters probably are racist, but their mot8ivation is Misogyny.

As is the case with the WHITE gangsters who have collaborated with them in EXACTLY the same way.

The common denominator is Misogyny, not racism. It is attitudes to WOMEN that are the problem.

If it were just race, there would be NO white people in these gangs, and there would be no white rapes of younfg girls elsewhere in the country.


Keith, you are backtracking.


You said it has nothing to do with Islam, but now you are saying that Islamic culture is responsible.


I retract my apology.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 04:46 AM

"You argue that the Moslem Pakistani community are responsible for the actions of organized criminals."

No, I do not.

"You discriminate on Racial and religious grounds and state that that is the significant factor in these crimes being committed."

No, no and no,

Now, please answer what I actually have said.
Sorry if that is a little harder to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 06:08 AM

Precisely what is "street grooming" and precisely what law does the grooming itself break?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 06:22 AM

Keith says.

"let us accept that this is a crime that the culture (not the religion) of the Pakistani community is largely responsible for."

so I say,

"You argue that the Moslem Pakistani community are responsible for the actions of organized criminals."

And you say:

"No I do not"

What you fail to see is that by generalizing about Moslem Pakistani culture, you are generalizing about Moslem Pakistanis

You make assumptions, nit just about Moslem Pakistani culture, but also about its homogenaiety.

The fact is Keith, that perceptions of culture in the Pakistani "community" are as wide ranging as their opinions on politics and football.

This notion of a homogenous Pakistani culture that you speak of is a stereotype that is imposed and that you happily accept as being true without stopping to consider for one moment that human beings are a considerably more complex species than your quick and easy formulae allow.

Keith,

In addition, you appear to be trying to seperate this false notion of "pakistani culture", as defined by Jack Straw and Anne Cryer, from Pakistani people.

This is a false distinction - culture means nothing without people.

It is not an abstract that can be seperated from the people it represents.

Culture is a description of how people coexist in society.

Pakistani culture is not a culture of organized crime.

Pakistani "community leaders" have no sway over the activities of organized criminals.


Saying "I don't have a problem with Pakistanis, just their culture" is a totally disingenuous way of blaming the Pakistani community for the activities of organized criminals without having to take responsibility for doing so.

Sorry, but those arestill, by definition, racist ideas, as they are based on culrural/racial stereotypes.


But I can see you are determined to make it acceptable to blame all British Pakistanis for the actions of a Pakistanbi crime Gang.

Apology still retracted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 06:29 AM

Street Grooming is a term used to describe the practice of driving around in your car picking up under age girls.

Grooming is what paedophiles do to lure their victims into vulnerable situations.

Street grooming is the same thing, only it happens on the street.


A huge problem with this idea of blaming British Pakistanis in general and or their culture, is that many young Asian men of all religions prefer to spend their disposable income on flashy cars than on alcohol and cigarettes.

For them, the way to picjk up a girl isn't to go to a nightclub and drink and dance and chat with her there, but to show off to her in your car.

This is a very western pastime, being an idiom taken from American movies etc - driving artound in your cool car with some cool tunes on the enormous stereo, with your shades on and the top down etc.

Again, it has no bearing on the crimes of human traffickers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 06:35 AM

Another concerning aspect of Ake and Keiths position, is that it somehow suggests that there is a difference between the crimes of the Pakistani Gangsters and the crimes of the White gangsters who were involved.

In fact it is the same crime with the same motivation - which clarifies that this issue is not the responsibility of the Pakistani "community" or its "culture".

Now lets see how you continue to stick up for this ridiculous lie without widening that double standards crack.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 07:25 AM

"You discriminate on Racial and religious grounds and state that that is the significant factor in these crimes being committed."
No to both. I do not.

"What you fail to see is that by generalizing about Moslem Pakistani culture, you are generalizing about Moslem Pakistanis"

Is there no such thing as a community culture?
Is it racist to consider aspects of anyone's culture?

"The fact is Keith, that perceptions of culture in the Pakistani "community" are as wide ranging as their opinions on politics and football."
I agree, but there are such things as cultural differences.
People have spent their lives studying them.

"Pakistani culture is not a culture of organized crime."
That is so obviously true it was not worth posting!

"Saying "I don't have a problem with Pakistanis, just their culture" is a totally disingenuous way of blaming the Pakistani community for the activities of organized criminals without having to take responsibility for doing so."
There is no blame on the community.

"But I can see you are determined to make it acceptable to blame all British Pakistanis for the actions of a Pakistanbi crime Gang."

But I do not!

"Another concerning aspect of Ake and Keiths position, is that it somehow suggests that there is a difference between the crimes of the Pakistani Gangsters and the crimes of the White gangsters who were involved."

I say now there is no difference.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 07:36 AM

All this confusion arises because you keep trying to make assumptions about me instead of just debating.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 08:26 AM

"Is it racist to consider aspects of anyone's culture?"

No - but you haven't "considered it". You have generalized about it and seemingly defined it, and your definition of it has so far been informed by apparently received knowledge about how this culture expects British Pakistanis to behave, and by the words of Jack Straw and Anne Cryer.

There are some British Pakistani Moslems who live according to strict orthodox and conservative values, and who expect other British Pakistani Moslems to behave the same way.

Of those, in extreme cases there are even some who commit domestic crimes against women.

But they are not representative of British Pakistani culture.

There are also Gangs of paedophilesm some made up predominantly of British Pakistani heritage, though not wholly.

These gangs are driven by a motivation that I do not understand.

All members of these gangs are committing crimes against young girls, whether those gang members are white or British Pakistani.

The white gang members are not driven by the value systems of any kind of Pakistani culture, and neither are their British Pakistani friends within the gang.

One thing however that they do have in common, is that they live in a society where men and women believe that if a young girl dresses like a slut then she "was asking for it".


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 08:28 AM

Let me try something else.
First cousin marriage is common within Pakistani culture.
Is it racist to say that?
Does it imply that all Pakistanis do it and no others do it?

An undesirable consequence is that they suffer a high level of inherited disabilities and a high infant mortality.
Is it racist to say that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 08:28 AM

Well, I can see that driving a dayglo scoobie or a lowered lexus ought to be illegal but it isn't.

I can see that hoping some poontang gets into your big black car may unset some people - but it isn't illegal and I'm not sure that it ought to be.

Leering at or chatting up women or girls of 15,14,13,12 gets arguably increasingly antisocial as the age goes down - but that in itself is not illegal and I'm not sure that it ought to be.

Assault or sexual assault are illegal. So is what USAians are pleased to call "statutory rape".

Maybe inaccurate use of language is making communication harder.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 08:51 AM

Richard,

I disagre on one point.

Kerbcrawling consenting prostitutes is illegal - and should be.

Likewise, adults in cars effectively kerbcrawling underage girls should also be illegal.

I believe that there are other good reasons, including those to do with traffic safety, why kerbcrawling any woman should be illegal, and I believe that that is a realistic preventative solution to this problem.

I think it woud be a whole lot more effective than asking the local vicar to give a sermon to the faithful when they pop in to say their evening prayers.


Keith,

In my opinion It depends what you are saying and how you frame it.

If you are exploring the matter of first cousin marriage, then absolutely not.

If you say "most" oor "a minority" then you give an indication of the extent to which this may or may not happen.


But if you say "it is common ... therefore ..." to prove a generalized point about Pakistanis, without exploring the issue further or indeed showing any genuine interest in that subject, then you have jumped the gun, and your argument begins to look highly suspect.

But before we go too far from this tangent, that isn't the subject matter and as such is a red herring.

The assertion here is that Young Pakistani boys are conditioned to view White girls as legitimate targets for sexual assult by their community and their culture.

IN THE REAL WORLD

Yes there is evidence that the culture in which both Pakistani and White Gangsters exist MAY be an influence on their contempt for women, but that ACTUAL culture is more significantly informed by the tabloid press and by "banter" at football matches, and a general British culture (documented and discussed in another thread) of blaming the woman for sexual assault against her on the grounds that shes "asking for it"

I would bet any money that evry one of the gangsters, Pakistani or otherwise, used that kind of language to dehumanize their victims and legitimize their actions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 08:51 AM

All I ever said about Pakistani culture is that girls tend not to be allowed to engage in courtship behaviour.
That is factually correct and not being racist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 08:54 AM

And I would add that Ake agrees that women are sometimes to blame for their own rape.

I wonder if he thinks that some of these girls are to blame - or is that only when innocent honest to god white rapists do it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 08:57 AM

There you go again.
Just debate Lox.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 09:00 AM

Keith,

once again, it is in fact only a generalization.

I told you that I lived in an almost exclusively Moslem Area for a year and a half.

Moslem girls in Britain are like any other girls and they like to flirt and be naughty as much as moslem boys do, and not just the ones in miniskirts or skinny jeans, but the ones in Hijabs etc. I have seen plenty of it. Secret ciggies, swearing etc etc

Any cultural tendancies in Britain f that type tend to be less 13th century and more 1955


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 09:13 AM

I was referring to the British Pakistanis.
Their culture is quite distinct from Turkish Moslems, Tunisian Moslems, etc.
It is understood when discussing a culture that it is a generalisation.
It is still a valid concept.
British Pakistani culture generally does not encourage the kind of courtship behaviour prevalent in Western cultures.
Why can't I say that without being called a racist?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 09:30 AM

I don't know if it necessarily makes you a racist to repeat it, but the facts are that amongst British Pakistanis those norms are becoming less and less common.

In addition, if you read my post in which I state what I Believe to be useful criteria for judging, it depends on what you do next.

If you use a loose generalization as the basis for a collective character judgement, or as the basis to explain a spurious slleged cultural characteristic, then you make your line of argument suspicious.

If on the other hanbd, you have a genuine interest in the subject of British Pakistanit courtship habits, then that is a quite different thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 09:37 AM

Er,.. I do not use a loose generalization as the basis for a collective character judgement, but I also do not have a genuine interest in Pakistani courtship practice.

So that makes me a racist?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 09:42 AM

I would add that if, in the face of evidence and stronf reasoning, you remain wilfully loyal to stereotypes and collective character judgements, then that serves as strong evidence that you are motivated by a more irrational view.

Ake for example is deeply loyal to his view that Foreign Moslems in Britain think theyre "better than us".

He has repeated it a thousand times on this website.

And before you ask me to return to the topic, I would point out that your interjection is the drift in this case, as my purposae on this thread has been to confront the poisonous ideas that Ake has been putting forward - all hidden, like a crocodile behind a fluffy chick, behind his get outr clause "the liberal agenda".


I think you have tried to distance yourself from those ideas, but I find it hard to understand why you appear to be looking for some way in somewhere to undermine my attempts to discredit these ideas.

When one way fails, you have another go.


I don't know where your current line of enquiry is leading, but it appears to be leading to the very tenuous suggestion that Pakistani culture is to blame for these crimes, and that Pakistani Moslems are responsible.


I would be a lot more confident about your motivation if I saw you subject Ake to the same tye of cross examination as you are attempting to engage in with me.

You fail to be honest that he is waving his "keith" flag as he sees that his slander about British Moslems is vindicated by every point you make.

This is regardless of whether the points you make support his hypothesis or not. Merely the scent of a point being scored by you is enough for him to suggest that his view has been vindicated.

So if you are impartial, then go and examine some of the posts with which I disagree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 09:44 AM

Richard, In England and Wales, sections 14 and 15 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 make it an offence to arrange a meeting with a child, for oneself or someone else, with the intent of sexually abusing the child. The meeting itself is also criminalized.
This is referred to as grooming.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 09:50 AM

Lox.
I absolutely refute that I "remain wilfully loyal to stereotypes and collective character judgements"

I am arguing with you because you keep making these false character judgements against me.
The first time Ake calls me a racist I will argue it out with him, but he tends not to make those kind of attacks on opponents.
He sticks to debate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 09:54 AM

In answer to your last post,

The idea that you have posted this particular generalization, and called it fact, and then claimed that it serves neither to support nor detract from any judgement of British Pakistani Men as culturally inclined to child abuse (THE SUBJECT OF THE THREAD), and also that you have no interest in it in its own right either, is just plain bizarre.

This line of questioning is getting you nowhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 10:00 AM

"He sticks to debate."

Nonsense.

He ignores debate and generalizes that anyone who disagrees with his generalizations is a "liberal" with a "liberal agenda"

In fact, just about every post I have read from him in the last year or so is on the subject of his precious "liberal Agenda"

He has, to his credit, argued well that Britain in the US have no right to be In Pakistan killing civilians there, but this does not give him the right to generalize about Pakistanis in Britain, or Tinkers, or "liberals", or homosexuals, or whatever other demographic he wishes to pigeonhole and slander.


The reason you end up being lumped in with him is that you more often than not come running to his aid when he makes such generalizations.

I'd like to see you question his views once in a while rather than picking fights with his political opponents and then crying "not fair" when you are associated with his views.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 10:04 AM

Lox, this is what I said just yesterday.

Biologically we are all the same.
A young man of any ethnicity will find it hard to live a saintly life under the cultural pressures found here.
Marriage partners are arranged at a young age, but relationships with girls are not allowed.
Under such a regime, some young men of any ethnic group would be tempted to go and get sex from where they can.
That seems to be what is happening here.

Now, how was that racist?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 10:14 AM

Because you ignore all the other possible hypotheses that do not centre around culture.

And be clear, you have suggested a hypothesis which blames Pakistani culture for these crimes, without exploring other hypotheses.

If you are going to make such a claim then you need to provide a damn sound and well supported argument.

relying on generalizations and stereotypes, and drawing wildly unconnected conclusions about these criminals based on extremely narrowly selected criteria does not produce an accurate picture of what is happening, but merely a slightly more developed wild hypothesis.

Wilfully pushging a hypothesis that depends on blaming Pakistani culture, without exploring other options indicates a DESIRE to blame Pakistani culture to begin with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 10:23 AM

"If you are going to make such a claim then you need to provide a damn sound and well supported argument."

No I do not.
I offer it as a plausible theory, and it is not my own.
It has been put forward by two Labour politicians, one very senior, both of whom have worked for years with the Pakistani communities they represent, and are supported and respected by those communities.

It works like this.
I put up my theory and you should try to find fault and/or an alternative.
Just calling me names is not the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 01:40 PM

S. 15 requires that a person has met the other person at least twice before. I have found no definition of "grooming" (headnotes do not count) and I have not found a provision criminalising those prior meetings. It is not my field and perhaps I have missed something but it looks to me that what is apparently referred to as "grooming" (and I'm still not quite clear what that is) is not of itself criminous.

Incidentally, it looks at first blush as if every person 10 years old or older who kisses a person under 13 commits an offence - surely I must have missed something there, mustn't I?

S9 also appears to contain a lacuna in that it requires "penetration" but some quite popular activities don't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 01:56 PM

Actually Keith, legal, academic and political debate work this way.

A hypothesis is suggested, and if it is to be taken seriously, it needs to be supported by a stroong reliable premise, and with a sound argument corroborated by evidence.

As it stands, neither you nor anyone else has provided any of the above.

You have provided us with a flawed premise, which is based on generalizations about British Pakistani culture.

If your premise is flawed, then your argument has no basis.

Though in fact even this is slightly disingenuous.

Becaue the reality is that you didn't put up any theory, you came to defend someone elses theory.

You have tried this in various different ways, such as putting words in my mouth and making wild generalizations about British Pakistanis, to name but two.

On each of these attempts you have utterly failed to provide meaningful support for the theory you set out to defend.

But still you persist.

Why?

Why are you so desperate to defend the idea that British Pakistani culture, and the British Pakistani Connunity, and its leaders, are to be held responsible for the crimes of a criminal gang?

That is the question I would like answered.

I can thank you for creating the need for me to clearly define how it is possible to determine when an idea or theory is motivated by racism and when it isn't.

You can tell because the person who professes the racist idea persists in defending it even when it has been shown that their is neither evidential or rational argument to support it.

So Keith, while maybe it isn't my place to say that you or Ake are Racists, I can state with no shadow of a doubt, that the idea he professed, and that you have come to the defence of, is a racist one.

It is up to you whether or not you wish to be associated with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 03:03 PM

I admit to making a generalistion about B.P. culture.
I said that girls are generally discouraged from engaging in courtship.
Are you saying that is false?

You neglected to say how my premise was flawed.
If you did we could discuss it rationally.

I think it quite sensible to use the opinions of people who know more about this that either of us.

I have never made "wild generalisations about British Pakistanis."
You can give no example can you.
Because it is false.

I am not desperate to defend anything.
I thought I was just joining an interesting debate.
Why can we not just discuss without accusations?

I do not and have never "defended the idea that British Pakistani culture, and the British Pakistani Connunity, and its leaders, are to be held responsible for the crimes of a criminal gang?"

Do you have to make stuff up about me because you have no answers?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 03:57 PM

Almost consecutives posts by Lox...


I can tell you that it is better to be white in a moslem area that moslem in a white area.

Who likes satire?


You can't make stuff like this up can you? Irony in action... :-)

Not having a go, Lox. You just appeal to my sense of the outrageous!!
Sterotyping moslems as non-white is exacly what the bigots want, I am afraid. Whether it is your experience or not is neither here nor there. Once you start to see people of a certain race being of a certain religion or vice-versca you may as well subscribe to the idea that all Irish are drunks and all the Jews are money-lenders!

Surely it would be better to say "be non-moslem in a moslem are that moslem in a non-moslem one"? Makes more semse to me anyroads. I agree with your argument in principle btw - just think you would be better served by not mixing race and colour with religion. May as well say it's better to be a catholic in a bird sanctuary than a bird in St Peters. Although...

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 04:03 PM

Keith I'm sorry you have been landed with this.

I do not respond to Lox, as I have found him to be abusive and I fear, slightly disturbed.

On several occasions he has attributed statements to me which were in fact posted by others....when this was pointed out to him, he had not the guts to apologise, or even express any regret.
Consequently I let him know that I had no interest in debating with a moral coward.....yet he follows me from thread to thread, like some demented stalker.

There is no doubt in my mind that the supression of free thought and free speech as practiced by people of Lox's ilk, represents an ideology even more insidious and dangerous, than that of all of the overtly racist maniacs put together.

Viva Freedom! Viva Liberty! Viva Justice!


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 04:20 PM

Dave,

I refer you to my previous response to the same point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 04:26 PM

Ake,

"On several occasions he has attributed statements to me which were in fact posted by others"

Bollocks, I know exactly where to find the posts I attribute to you and have provided links to them before.

"There is no doubt in my mind that the supression of free thought and free speech as practiced by people of Lox's ilk"

Exactly where has your freedom of thought or speech been supressed by me in any way?

Nowhere.

Excepot in one respect - each time I encounter you I expose the truth about your position as easily as a chils opens a birthday present.

And like the torn wrapping paper I rip your pathetic unsubstantiated and facile arguments to shreds.

If you post racist ideas on a public forum, then you can expect someone to confront you.

Sad case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 04:29 PM

In addition, I would add that on each occasion that I have taken Ake to task, it has been in response to slander and abuse that he has heaped on other mudcat members, not least those who aren't there to defend themselves.

Ake's poisonous contribution on such threads serves as little more than verbal pollution


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 04:54 PM

Keith, you have argued that British Pakistani culture is responsible for young Pakistani boys seeking out white girls.

In the context of a discussion about crimes against white girls, that reads to me as an explanation for these crimes.

In addition, you have stated that you agree with Anne Cryer, who argued that if "community leaders" had stepped in and talked to parents about teaching their kids not to see white girls as sluts, then these crimes could have been prevented.

In other words, she makes "community leaders", and by proxy, "communities", responsible for the crimes committed by Pakistani Criminals.

Perhaps you have decided that you disagree with her on that point now.

In short, you have defended the idea that the British Pakistani Culture, Community and Community Leaders should take responsibility for these crimes.

That idea, regardless of who agrees with it or stands against it, is an idea that has as its premise the assumption that these crimes are representative of British-Pakistani attitudes of white girls as distinct from anyone elses.

This is an unsupportable accusation.

It is definig the causes of these crimes on racial/religious grounds.

It is a racist idea.

Reject it or support it as you will, but don't pretend it is a supportable hypothesis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 05:03 PM

Finally,

Dave,

In Leicester, just to clarify, there are several Catchment areas, or Ghettos, which can be characterized roughly by their religious/racial make up.

There are some mixed areas.

There are poor white areas ie most of the people who live there are white and poor.

There is a large Moslem area, where most people are moslem.

The common perceived identity of most people in white areas is that they are white.

The common perceived identity of people in Moslem areas is that they are Moslem.

In the white areas there is a small range of religious diversity. There are catholics, protestants, aetheists, Jews etc.

In the Moslem Area there is a small range of racial diversity - there are Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Somalis, Algerians etc

That is why it makes more sense to describe them as "white" or "Moslem" areas, as the common denominator in one srea is ethnicity, while in the other it is religion.

Thus, I have not mixed my metaphors, so much as referred to a demographic fact.

And it is true that when white people come into Moslem areas in Leicester, they do not get abused and threatened as much as Moslems do when they go into white areas.

I hope that clarifies the matter for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 05:50 PM

""But their silence on these issues is deafening.""

Neither accurate nor relevant Brian.

It isn't so much a case of ""their silence on these issues is deafening."", more a case of "Their words on the subject don't sell newspapers so they don't get printed".

There are many Muslims saying plenty, but what they say doesn't put any money in Rupert Murdoch's pocket.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 05:56 PM

I once asked a buddy from Alabama why there seemed to be so much racial hatred in that state. He replied, `Because the good guys don`t make the news.`


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 06:12 PM

""So. It was simply coincidence that 50 out of the 53 convicted were muslim.......you are the daftie if you believe that.""

So our resident sneer on legs can't get his head round the notion that the members of any gang will have similarity of race, simply because like cleaves to like, but you don't hear the same screeching rant from him when the police round up a bunch of white paedophiles, do you?

Ake's agenda is crystal clear, yet he accuses everybody else of double standards. His posting record shows a predilection for kicking the crap out of any minority which ruffles the calm surface of his closed mind.

Homosexuals, gypsies and travellers, Muslims, liberals (if only he understood what a liberal is) all come in for more than a fair share of his bile and malice.

He is the problem, not the solution, and as long as people like him continue to spread their poison these problems will persist.

A criminal is a criminal first, and a Christian, Muslim, or any other grouping second.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 06:23 PM

Just to nail the latest lie being promoted on this thread, that I "think that rape victims are asking for it"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: akenaton - PM
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:50 PM

Further up the thread Royston says.
"We're talking about whether or not women who have been raped, should carry some blame for what happened to them."

Well actually we are NOT discussing that at all.

We are discussing whether SOME rape victims should take partial responsibility for their safety.

All the stuff about dress is a bit of a red herring, as is all the verbiage about family friends, husbands ect.
These are not the cases we are discussing

"you think some women deserve to be raped"
How many times have I read that on this thread.
Nobody said anyone DESERVES to be raped
The crime is inexcusible....I said that in my first post.

What prompted me to post at all, was the case in the newspapers of a young lady who met a young man in a pub...both got sloshed, went back to his flat, got into bed and had sex.
The two parted company, and the next day, the young lady went to the police an complained of rape.

Now that girl of course did not deserve to be raped...if she was raped, but in my opinion acted in a very irresponsible manner.

This thread is a very good example of "liberalism" in action, isolate the two or three who deviate slightly from the prescribed form of words, then bully and misrepresent what they say until they fall silent and give way.   That is not being liberal, a true liberal will read a post and if he disagrees with part of it will try to come to an understanding with the other party, not simply abuse them, as has been done with Lizzie here.
I dont agree with all she says, but her opinions are not "vile" or "hateful", she just sees things slightly differently from the rest.

Jeddy....nice to see your name again my dear, I've missed your question, but I'll go back and try to find it...Ake


The difference is that in this current thread we are discussing the rape and trafficking of immature young girls....emotional infants.
No sense of responsibility can be laid at their feet.

Apologists!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 06:24 PM

Native people (Indians, aka First Nations and other names) make up about 4% of Canada`s population. They also account for 24% of admissions to provincial and federal jails. Talk about prejudice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 06:34 PM

I really do not have the energy to read al this. I just wondered if the wonderful Canadian program, The Little Mosque on the Prairie has been noted. I just saw it for the fisrt time this week and already I think it is amazing and delightful. Amazing that it seems to be produced by a bunch of people with unpronounceable names. Delightful because it depicts real people being real people - except the brown ones are more interesting and delightful than the white ones. And it is a highly rated, much-loved program. I understand there is some flak from south of the border.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 06:36 PM

There is much from that thread that you have conveniently omitted Ake,

But rather than dig all that up, I shall point and laugh at this little gem.


"The difference is that in this current thread we are discussing the rape and trafficking of immature young girls....emotional infants."


Not funny in itself, but when you consider the hours that Ake has spent arguing that Paedophilia is a curiously Gay Problem ...

... I guess its a Gay problem and a Moslem Problem now ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 06:56 PM

As soon as I see the words "Muslims are......" or "Christians are......." (substitute the group of your choice), I know that the odds are a thousand to one on the rest of the sentence being a fairly even mixture of lies, half truths, and malicious prejudice.

When said sentence is posted by one or two specific members of this forum, those odds jump to a million to one.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 07:11 PM

Lox, over and over I quote you verbatim, and refute what you said.
In return, over and over, you make up things that I never have said, and never would say, and reply to that!

Now I challenge you.
Quote something of mine verbatim, and then say what is wrong with it.

I do not think that you can Lox.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 07:21 PM

Sigh.....Another lie to refute.

I have never at any time said or believed that homosexuals had any particular propensity to paedophilia

The priests who abused, were attracted to adolescent boys.
Paedophiles target pre-pubescent children.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 07:33 PM

"let us accept that this is a crime that the culture (not the religion) of the Pakistani community is largely responsible for."

Theres the culture being expected to take responsibility.

"Under such a regime, some young men of any ethnic group would be tempted to go and get sex from where they can."

There's the parents/community being held responsible,

and in response to my criticism of Anne cryers Opinion, and coice of solution, you stated that you "believe her" over me.

You accept her opinion as informed testimony.

In the process you endorse her assertion that the solution is not a practical policing matter, but a cultural matter that could have been and could still be solved by "community leaders" talking to the "community"

That Keith is her opinion.

Sticking up for it makes you sympathetic to it.

Do you agree with her?


I would clarify that to blame a culture without blaming the people is non sensical as the culture only exists because the people live by it.

To understand the culture you must observe the people.

To blame the culture is to blame the people.

This is simple Logic.


My arguments do very robustly stand the test of scrutiny Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 08:19 PM

Ake says:

"Sigh.....Another lie to refute.

I have never at any time said or believed that homosexuals had any particular propensity to paedophilia"


Oh really?


So its refuting lies you want is it?


Well how do you like these apples ...



*snip*

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: akenaton - PM
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 03:39 AM


"My contention is that men who indulge in the homosexual practice, have a propensity towards paedophelia, the figures available
and my observations throughout my life....lead me to that contention"

*snip*



Indeed Ake - Lie refuted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 08:44 PM

So where were we,

Oh yes ...

... I tell the truth and Ake tells lies.


I think that just about finishes Ake off in this debate at least.


... and Keith needs to clarify whether he agrees with Anne Cryer that "community leaders" could have prevented these crimes form occurring ...

... and he need to clarify how he can hold the culture of a community responsible without holding the community - and its leaders responsible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 03:02 AM

I do believe that some homosexuals have a propensity towards post pubescent boys.

But not to paedophilia.

The remark quoted has been carelessly written. I apologise and withdraw it.

The quotation above of course, has absolutely no bearing on this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 03:19 AM

Extraordinary Lox!
Those two innocuous, anodyne statements are the strongest things you can put up to justify your almost hysterical ranting against me!

I did say,"let us accept that this is a crime that the culture (not the religion) of the Pakistani community is largely responsible for."

But, the only aspect of the culture I ever referred to was the absence of courtship activities, and you chose not to deny the truth of that yesterday.
There is nothing wrong with saying that.

I also said, "Under such a regime, some young men of any ethnic group would be tempted to go and get sex from where they can."

That is a perfectly reasonable and rational link to suggest.
What is wrong with you?

Anne Cryer.
She speaks from knowledge and experience.
Anyone would need a reason to believe you over her.
She has spent years working with the Pakistani community she represents, and is respected and supported by them.
They voted for her.
She also had first hand experience with victims and their families. (Likewise Jack Straw, and the police officers.)

Community leaders?
Of course she raised the issue with Pakistani councillors and other representatives, and with influential people like local Immams.
She would have a working relationship with them and would be failing in her responsibilities not to raise such an issue with them.

What is wrong with you that you can not be rational about all this?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 03:49 AM

"That is a perfectly reasonable and rational link to suggest."

Just to recap,

Keith thinks that an 'alleged' "absence" of courtship in "pakistani culture" is a reasonable explanation for the existence of an orhanizde crime gang who abduct and abuse underage girls.

Well of course ... now I can see that it is me who is ranting hysterically.

Your Hypothesis Keith is so shot to pieces that that is all that is left of it.


"Of course she raised the issue with Pakistani councillors and other representatives, and with influential people like local Immams."

You are dodging the point keith - Anne Cryer argues that if "community leaders" had talked to the "community" about respecting white teenage girls (because obviously without this 'talking to', the community would never have thought of it themselves), then that could have prevented organized gangs from abducting teenagers, trafficking them and subjecting them to rape and other abuse.


Maybe some kind of research in this field would be useful, but until we actually kknow anything about the causes and effects of sexual taboo Islam style, then we are none of us qualified to assert anything that might suggest an entire culture is at risk of turning to rape and abduction unless its "leaders" step in to make sure they don't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 03:54 AM

Ake,

Thank you for that retraction.

When I first ebngaged with you on here I argued that you were not thinkng your ideas through properly.

When you stuck up relentlessly for points that were similarly carelesssly written, I drew the conclusion that you intended to deliberately mislead.

My hand is always ready to extend to the person who is able to acknowledge that their remarks may have been careless.

For me it is not about the person, but the idea.

And regardless of who the person is, I will confront poisonous ideas head on.

I suspect that it took some guts to write your apology above, and I respect that.

I don't know if this is grounds to be optimistic or not that you will take more care and be more considerate in future, but who knows eh?

I'm out of this thread as there is nothing left for me to add.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 05:31 AM

""The remark quoted has been carelessly written. I apologise and withdraw it.

The quotation above of course, has absolutely no bearing on this thread.
""

Its bearing on this thread is both obvious and valid, inasmuch as it pertains to the agenda of the poster and lays bare his prejudice in relation to the subject of various minorities.

In the thread in which it originally appeared, it was too vigorously proposed and defended to have been a carelessly written error.

The two conclusions from this reflect upon both the integrity and the veracity of the poster, and supply a very clear indication of the credibility or otherwise of his utterances.

Denials of prejudice, bigotry, and malicious intent somehow fail to ring true.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 05:44 AM

"Keith thinks that an 'alleged' "absence" of courtship in "pakistani culture" is a reasonable explanation for the existence of an orhanizde crime gang who abduct and abuse underage girls."

No.
Keith thinks that , "Under such a regime, some young men of any ethnic group would be tempted to go and get sex from where they can."

A reasonable and rational suggestion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 02:02 PM

"Keith thinks that , "Under such a regime, some young men of any ethnic group would be tempted to go and get sex from where they can.""

Of course Keith, and you mean to insinuate no connection whatsoever between that point and THE SUBJECT BEING DISCUSSED ie abduction and rape.

Its just a coincidence that you mentioned it in the middle of that discussion, and it wasn't intended to cast any light on the subject matter.


I'm not sure whether to advise you to stop taking happy pills or to start ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 02:13 PM

Query: Who gives a flying fu$k WHAT Keith thinks? He's shown himself over and over again to be a bigoted racist jackass with a pretty tenuous grip on reality.

Move on. This pig ain't ever gonna learn to sing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 02:25 PM

Oh, a most valuable post, Greg F ~~ so long on cogent argument & short on abusive name-calling ···
NOT
,,,

"I'm out of this thread as there is nothing left for me to add." ~ Lox at 0354

That resolve didn't last long, did it, Smoked·Salmon mate?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 03:13 PM

Lox, I would like to answer and discuss your last post.
I am hesitating because all you have done so far is to try to use my posts against me.
You are determined to confirm your belief that I am a racist bigot.

It is no good asking you to change your opinion of me, but can you keep it to yourself and just debate as if I actually was a decent human being?
Or shall we just leave it here?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jan 11 - 02:19 AM

So, you can not discuss this without propping yourself up with the crutch of abuse.
You certainly fell flat when you tried to challenge things I had actually said, rather than things I never had, or would, say.

A pity.
You accepted that " the gangs in this case are predominantly made up of Pakistanis."
I think we were coming close to a non racist explanation of that fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 27 Jan 11 - 04:37 AM

Keith,

I was away from my computer.

I clarified a few times that the issue is with the idea, not the man who propagates it.

The idea that Pakistani culture is to blame for these Organized Gangs activities any more or less than it is responsible for the crimes of their White Gang-mates, is both racist and unsupported.

You have provided NO argument to support this idea, nor any evidence.

Instead you have provided a list of disingenuous mealy mouthed apologies for Jack Straw and Anne Cryers assertion that the Pakistani community and their elders are responsible for the crimes committed and that they could have prevented them from happening.


You are wasting my time.

Good bye.


MtheGM as usual dribbles into his bib with glee after regurgitating the same dull quip as usual, I just hope that with this level of over excitement his colostomy bag is properly attached.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jan 11 - 05:57 AM

My hypothesis is that the absence of girls available for sexual relationships in the BP culture may be linked to their young men being over represented in this type of crime.

That does not make me racist or culturalist.
I will concede at once that they are under represented in every other type of non terrorist crime.

You say I have offered no evidence (except the plausibility of the idea), but you have offered no evidence against either.

You have also not offered any explanation of your own for the fact that "the gangs in this case are predominantly made up of Pakistanis"


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jan 11 - 10:27 AM

But you don't have time to explain why.
Not helpful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jan 11 - 02:02 PM

Yes, but then there's no NEED for me to "explain why" - your postings speak for themselves, and there's no way I could improve on them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jan 11 - 02:22 PM

You will have to help me Greg.
As you say, I am an idiot.
I simply do not understand how any rational person could read my last post to Lox as racist.
Indeed , not being a racist or a bigot, I believe I have never made such a post.

I can tell that my presence here annoys you Greg.
Here's the deal.
You find a post of mine with a racist or bigoted remark, and I will leave Mudcat for good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Jan 11 - 02:38 PM

Keith has never, is not nor will ever be a racist. Those of you who intend to find proof of racism in any post he`s ever made on Mudcat will be one long time looking. Many of you are doing nothing BUT exhibiting rude, crude and foolish behaviour--and, imo, it`s time ya stopped.

Keith, there`s no point peeing into the wind, my friend.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 27 Jan 11 - 05:17 PM

STOP PRESS

In todays METRO it was reported that another two men were convicted for trafficking in sex slaves.

It seems they were the leaders of an organized Gang.


Then in the Evening Standard, there was a story about a young Malaysian woman who was drugged and gang raped by fellow students on an English language course.

The men who did it were thankfully caught and convicted.


The Gangters who trafficked sex slaves were Romanian.

No Mention of the race or ethnicity of the rest of the Gang, but I'm guessing probably Romanian.

The Men who Gang raped the Malaysian Woman were Russian.


I wonder if it was Islamic culture that drove them to their crimes?


Or is it only that when British Pakistanis do it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 27 Jan 11 - 07:21 PM

"You say I have offered no evidence (except the plausibility of the idea), but you have offered no evidence against either."

This is illogical bullshit.

If you make a claim, you need to back it up with evidence, or at the very least a clear line of reasoning that stands the test of scrutiny.

You have provided neither, and until you do, your hypothesis stands as nothing more than meaningless fiction.

It is up to you to support your own hypothesis.

Evidence makes a hypothesis plausible.

Suggesting that the onus is on me to find evidence to disprove it is ridiculous and just another in your list of ridiculous logical fallacies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 27 Jan 11 - 09:55 PM

I don't think the sexual frustation of adolescents is to blame. Many of the men these girls were procured for were mature and middle aged men.

This is just plain old non denominational bloody evil.

There are always perversions of religion - the priests in Frank McCourts childhood who slept with his mother for a few slices of bread.

There are always people who use their religion as an excuse to be an utter bastard. The headmasters who physically abused Roald Dahl. If they didn't have that as an excuse, they'd have something else.

Everybody knows when they're committing a monstrous evil.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 02:03 AM

Lox,
The idea is not mine remember.
It is the belief of two intelligent people who have spent years working with and for their large local BP communities.

I though it reasonable, and posted it here when the subject came up.
What is so wrong with that Lox?

Your position is that you are sure it is wrong, but you don't know why, and you have no alternative ideas.

OK Lox, but that is a non contribution.
What is the point of posting it?
So many times!
With such anger.
It is not rational behaviour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 04:12 AM

Funny, either the post eater is at it again or I have been modded.
    Musta been the post eater. You haven't been modded. -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 05:13 AM

"The idea is not mine remember."

"I though it reasonable, and posted it here when the subject came up."

You're attempting that same old weak tired tactic Keith of posting an opinion, no other opinion, and then defending it to the hilt, but simultaneously abdicating any responsibility for it.

Sorry mate, that lie doesn't even pretend to be believable.

You think Straw and Cryers comments are reasonable - i.e. you see no reason to disagree.

ie, you think they are legitimate supportable views.

That IS your opinion.


"you have no alternative ideas."

The subject of the thread isn't "paedophile Gangs"

The subject is "Muslim Prejudice".

Is prejudice against Moslems an issue? Is it understandable? Why? What reasons? ...

... well one is that "they" traffick young white girls ...

(this is presumably after they've come over here and taken our jobs)

Well actually, this has nothing to do with Islam, or Pakistani culture, and there is no evidence or reliable argument that supports that accusation.

Wait - hang on - Keith thinks there is ... and he will fight to the bitter end to try to prove it, even when the very weak evidence he has provided is shown not to give any weight to the views he thinks are "reasonable".


"Your position is that you are sure it is wrong, but you don't know why,"

Yes I know exactly why - and I have stated so - Because there is no evidence or solid reasoning to support it.

Ths view is as evidentially supported and logically defendable as the notion that Nick Griffin is your secret gay lover.

Mayube its the culture of secret gay relationships with BNP leaders that is the reason for you posting all this crap.

If I apply your rules, then you should now provide evdence to show that this is not true ...


Straw and Cryer have made a value judgement about Islamic/Pakistani culture, this needs to be supported evidentially or logically or it stands as Slander.


Slander against a race/culture is called PREJUDICE Keith.


So whats my point?

My point is that this "example" of why it might understandable that there is prejudice against Moslems is flawed as it is not the product of Pakistani culture, but is a cross cultural problem.

In other words, This excuse to be suspicious of Moslems doesn't wash and those who use it need to find another sound reason or admit that they are merely trying to bolster up a racist idea.

In addition, I note that your attempts to support these views, or to respond to my actual points, or the evidence I have provided which shows that this is not an exclusively Pakistani issue, have been completely ignored and that all you have left is this whiney complaint that you are being picked on.

Well tough mate - I don't give a shit.

If you stick up for posonous ideas, then you put yourself in the firing line of criticism of poisonous ideas.


You've been so well and truly pasted now Keith that it would be cruel to carry this on any further.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 05:24 AM

Short version of previous post.

Keith post weak excuse for prejudice against Moslems and defend them, Keith get held accountable and get blown out of water.

You savvy?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 05:36 AM

Threads drift Lox.
You posted about this issue two days before I did.

The idea came from two respected, knowledgeable people with impeccable Left Wing credentials, and it sounded reasonable to me.
It was relevant to the discussion so I posted about it.

Why the completely irrational rage Lox?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 05:42 AM

You're still moaning mate.

There's no irrational rage, there is well supported and thoroughly argued rebuttal of these outrageous slanders.

Pay attention - its all in my last two posts.

"You posted about this issue two days before I did."

Yes I was already discrediting this line of slander before you came along to stick up for it.

"it sounded reasonable to me."

i.e you thought it was legitimate and supportable.

Should I deduce from your use of the past tense that you don't anymore?

If so then I think that there is nothing left to discuss.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 06:18 AM

No one should dismiss informed opinion.
Cryer and Straw are well informed.
I still think the suggestion is a reasonable one.
Why don't you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 06:24 AM

""Why the completely irrational rage Lox?""

Why the irrational insistence upon repeating the same mantra multiple times in the belief that this will make it true eventually?

Lox is right Keith, and what you see as irrational rage appears to me to be the natural frustration engendered by trying to insert a simple idea into a closed mind.

You see the problem as a Muslim one, and trawl through the internet until you find two "politically correct" commentators who agree.

Seizing on this "evidence", you declare your case proven.

Not so mate. All you have proved is that there are two others who share your opinion, for that is all it amounts to.

Lox produces facts, easily verifiable, that there are Romanian gangs, British gangs, and gangs of every other race and religion, involved in the same, or similar, activity.

When such a gang is discovered and brought to justice, nobody should be surprised that it consists predominantly of members from the same ethnic background.

For reasons best known to yourself and Akenaton, you choose to ignore all of this, and come to the unsupported conclusion that this is a Muslim problem.

Looking at your argument, it presents a logical fallacy based upon your belief that, if Pakistani Muslims can't get together with girls from their own community (not entirely accurate in itself), they have no other recourse than to abduct and rape British girls between the ages of 11 and 16.

By those criteria, in your opinion, every Muslim boy is potentially not only a rapist kidnapper, but a paedophile to boot.

This concept is intrinsically ridiculous!!

The idea that any randy youth has to resort to criminal offences to get laid is patently absurd.

When I was a youth back in the uptight fifties, one couldn't go near the "nice" girls on pain of dire punishment, but then, and even more so now, there were always plenty of willing girls, and we sowed our wild oats without trouble, and we weren't in the least interested in anybody's kid sister.

There are wall to wall available girls in every town centre, and the idea that Muslim lads haven't noticed that is frankly laughable.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 06:43 AM

Don, on 24th January I said about this issue "It is nothing to do with Islam. "
I do not "see the problem as a Muslim one,"
I have always said specifically that it is not.

I did not "trawl through the internet until you find two "politically correct" commentators who agree "

Jack Straw was the main news item for a couple of days, and Cryer was being reported everywhere.
Did you miss it?

All your criticisms are completely false.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 07:19 AM

"There are wall to wall available girls in every town centre, and the idea that Muslim lads haven't noticed that is frankly laughable"

Er....,
quite!


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 07:41 AM

Uh huh ...

so "It is nothing to do with Islam."

but also,

"Under such a regime, some young men of any ethnic group would be tempted to go and get sex from where they can."


I wonder what cultural regime he could possibly be referring to ...

... its either a regime imposed by Pakistani culture or Islamic culture.


So whats to blame? Islam or the fact that they are Pakistani?

If it isn't Islam, then it must be Pakistani culture.


Keith, is Pakistani culture responsible for these crimes?


No of course it isnt.


But keith says "I still think the suggestion is a reasonable one."


If it isn't Pakistani culture, and it isn't Moslem culture, then there is no suggestion left to criticize i.e. there is no hypothesis left as there is no culture or regime left to hold responsible.


And it isn't British culture either. If anything, it is Male culture of degradation and objectification of women that is to blame.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 07:44 AM

But they aren't all white girls.

Oh, and although they may look underdressed to old dogs like us, they may or may not be available - that's up to them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 07:57 AM

Lox, the suggestion is that it is certain aspects of BP culture.
Specifically that girls are not permitted relationships with males, and marriages are arranged from a young age.

Only a tiny minority are ever involved in this crime but, as you acknowledge, they are over represented and that requires an explanation.
What is yours?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 09:10 AM

""Don, on 24th January I said about this issue "It is nothing to do with Islam. "
I do not "see the problem as a Muslim one,"
I have always said specifically that it is not.
""


Since you enjoy flinging around comments about the rest of us misrepresenting your attitudes, the following might be of interest:

You also made other comments Keith.

21st Jan ""Christians more than any other faith group are being persecuted and killed for their religion, by muslims, in places like Egypt, Pakistan, Indonesia, Philipines.
There is also the treatment of individuals who choose to leave Islam.


Followed by a long list of "Muslim" atrocities in the next post.

Then:

21st Jan   ""I know from personal experience that extremism as a mind-set is spreading throughout the Muslim world.""

21st Jan   You also cited statements by Nazir Ali in support of your arguments. Of course he is a lapsed Muslim who has converted to Roman Catholicism. So, no possible biased agenda there then.

21st Jan   ""OK, but tell us why we should dismiss him and listen to you.""   

See above.

23rd Jan   ""Girls from respectable families have given their stories of being enticed away from shopping malls in daylight.
Not all white either.
Just not muslim.
They are off limits to young muslim men.
""

24th Jan   ""She was an MP for an area with a large Pakistani community, and her vote largely came from that community.
A respected and knowledgeable authority on this issue.
""

An authority who stated that this is almost exclusively an Asian problem. I'm with Lox….What planet is she living on? Of course, as an ex MP she is no longer swayed by the need for their votes.

At least Jack Straw had the good grace to remark that sex crimes in general were disproportionately a "White" problem, a point which you chose to ignore.

You also chose to ignore the Police Inspector (who one might suspect is more of an authority on crime than Ann Cryer), when he said "What no-one is saying is that the Pakistani community is responsible for the majority of sex crimes: This is just an element of sex crimes in general.

This is a specific problem within a group of people in a minority community."

24th Jan   ""For many, the outrage becomes a shrug when the perpetrators are a minority of Muslims and the victims white.""

This is an example of how you debate without accusations or attacks on the integrity of opponents........I see.

24th Jan   You quoted: FORMER Detective Superintendent Mick Gradwell, who was East Lancashire's top detective when he retired from the force last year, tells why he agrees with Jack Straw's controversial comments on sex grooming.

"WHEN I came to Blackburn in the 1970s, one of my main issues was the gangs of Asian men outside the old nightclub on top of the shopping centre who were picking up drunk white girls, specifically to abuse them."

1.   His mind reading skills must have stood him in good stead as a detective, if he was able to read their intentions so accurately........Oh Puhlease!
2.   He doesn't mention that there were also large numbers of white lads with, possibly, the same intentions. I'll bet a packet that there were.

I have little trouble divining what was on his mind when he said that.

24th Jan   ""This particular crime, dubbed street grooming, is the domain of male muslim gangs according to the people in a position to know.""

The wildest generalisation yet!

25th Jan   Lox said: "You argue that the Moslem Pakistani community are responsible for the actions of organized criminals."

You replied: ""No, I do not.""

See the above post

Also, you agree with Ann Cryer, when that was the whole tenor of her speech.

28th Jan   ""No one should dismiss informed opinion.
Cryer and Straw are well informed.
I still think the suggestion is a reasonable one.
Why don't you?
""

Yet you ignored a most important point in Jack Straw's comment, both when he said it, and again when I pointed it out to you.

28th Jan I posted: "There are wall to wall available girls in every town centre, and the idea that Muslim lads haven't noticed that is frankly laughable"

Your response:   ""Er....,
quite!
""

And another point slides effortlessly over the head. Willing girls kind of make rape unnecessary my friend, and it seldom makes sense to take the line of most resistance, or do you also believe that Muslim boys are stupid as well as criminal?

It's also worth remembering that just about every nightclub in the country has its coterie of girls who are there specifically to "pull", which suggests a different motive than that which you seek to ascribe to these criminals.

All in all you haven't managed to convince that one comment denying an Islamic cause outweighs the multitude of opposing posts.

Will you now be leaving this thread, or was that offer only open to Lox?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 09:24 AM

Don.
I acknowledged that Muslims are under represented in all other non terrorist crimes.
That includes other sex crimes.

If you want a response to all that other stuff, one at a time please.

And yes, find anything by me that is racist and I walk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 11:34 AM

I wouldn't want you to walk as for me, as I have already stated, it is not the person but the idea that needs confronting.

This world is built on ideas - money - society - law etc - all are abstract ideas that only exist because enough of us agree that they do.

Some ideas are part of the solution, and others are part of the problem.

Some will take us forwards. whilst others will take us back to the stone age.


Ideas based on unsubstantiated and slanderous generalizations about ethnic or religious groups serve no useful purpose and their propagation will condemn us to a dark future.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 11:58 AM

Thanks Lox.


Do you regard is as unsubstantiated and slanderous to say that British Pakistanis generally do not approve of girls having relationships with males?
Or that marriages are very often arranged at a young age?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 12:31 PM

Fair enough Lox. I don't like racist jokes and racist talk, and people getting a raw deal because of prejudice annoys and upsets me - as i hope it does all decent folk.

having said that I do feel unease, when i think of the asian kids I used to meet as a temp/supply teacher in Derby. Nice kids for the main part, some of them living in the red light areas of the city. All i will say is that the strictures of the preached Muslim dress code for girls, alongside the worldliness of their surroundings made it difficult for them to get a balanced view of things. I used to have to check my tongue, or i would have very soon found myself in trouble for saying stuff confrontational to their religion. And that would have helped no one.

By all means confront Keith, but if you don't feel that measure of unease - somehow you've got it wrong. Pretending that problems don't exist, and that there isn't grounds for concern - well its just being unobservant.

Most of us can rub along nicely - but some people are getting the wrong messages about our divergent cultures. It needs keeping an eye on and occasionally putting right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 12:42 PM

I think they are massive simplifications of a more complex issue with numerous observable levels.

I think in Britain these things are becoming less and less prevalent.

In the papers we read about young Moslem Women changing "cultural norms" and speaking out against the old ways - in fact, we have been reading about his stuff for at least a decade.

In addition, when teenage and young adult females clad in full Hijab try to flirt with you, you learn pretty quickly just how "repressed" they are.

I knew several young men and teenage boys with young Moslem girlfriends where I lived. It was common and the "community" did nothing to repress their relationships.

It was a typical poor Ghetto of any town. Kids were disillusioned by the opportunity's they had, and they smoked fags in the street and they smoked Pot behind my house as mine was the last street in the row.

The lads were tough talking street kids - who went to mosque etc - I was friendly with them, male and female.

As I said, it was less 13th century than it was 1955 - except that while the parents were 1955, the kids were very 2005.

There were of course varying degrees of freedom amongst women, and there were some conservative families, and some less conservative families.

The toughest talking wildest lads did not come from families where dad had a beard and mum wore a bhurka, but from families where Dad was an alcoholic who lived somewhere else now that mum had succesfully got an injunction out against him.

So if its causes of crime you want, you can see a strong common denominator there shared with criminals from other racial and religious backgrounds.

And that common denominator is the usual combination of poverty, broken home, living in a ghetto with no voice and no knowledge of how to seek your fortune and no hope -> what difference does it make if I join a gang -> at least i won't be a sad twat like my dad, or like miggins over there who works in McDonalds -> Nope - I'm gonna make some money and be somebody, with a flash car etc etc ... a hustler - a high roller - a pimp - just like in the songs.

You want to blame culture, blame our corporate propaganda machine that sells stereotypes and lifestyles by the pound - this is the girl you need - these are the clothes you need ... etc

And even all that hardly constitutes a Beginning - let alone a conclusion.

As long as Mysoginy sells there will be mysoginysts - though I can't guarantee that I'll be able to spell it properly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 12:44 PM

Alan, I'm not pretending that problems don't exist, but there is a wide gulf between that and concluding that Islam is to blame for these crimes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 01:21 PM

I don't know if anyone else can confirm this, but I think theres a definite conflict within the Asian community.

You see, you get very poor families - sometimes from villages in the subcontinent, and they bring the petty values of the village and keep them alive as best they can in England.

Then again you get more middle class, aspirational types and they adopt and adapt - just do their damndest to compete - realising they have their work cut out with that - never mind being 'in the tradition' - leave that to english folksinger!

That's when you'd hear comments like - that girl dresses like a slag in tight jeans - she knows a muslim girl shouldn't dress like that.

Of course the way to hell is paved with generalisations. I don't know, but I saw and heard enough to make me uneasy.

Islam isn't to blame, but its there in the mixture somwhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 01:56 PM

"I don't know if anyone else can confirm this, but I think theres a definite conflict within the Asian community."

If anything Alan, I would suggest that to assume there was a homogenous view would be utterly absurd.

I encountered different views of Islam, Shia, Sunni, different opinions within Sunni, politics, society, labour, tory, lib dem, Manchester United, Leicester City, Vegetarian, Meat eating, Artistic, Entrepreeurial, dissillusioned, optimistic, racist, enlightened, etc etc etc ...

Conflict and disagreement that crosses categories - so those who agree on one issue disagree on another - those who support each other on one matter, suppport apparent rivals on another ...

... Just like all communities.

This is why the idea that "community leaders" can influence the "community" (like the arabs in the film "the jewel of the nile" all standing behind their leader) is such a load of tosh.

The alleged "community leaders" are often nothing of the sort, like Mr Khan in the video I posted above, are neither elected nor do they have the across the board support as spokespeople that they claim they have. I have heard a prominent Pakistani woman politician, whose name I have sadly forgotten, describe them as "self styled community leaders".

The idea that such men could have prevented organized trafficking gangs from abducting underage girls is beyond ludicrous and depends on a very idealized caricature of how these communities look and how they are "led".


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 03:28 PM

Words!!!!

No time for all that wordiness, I am now going to turn on the TV and watch Little Mosque on the Prairie on CBC, a delightful, humourous, down to earth show about a small prairie town where Muslims and Christians talk to each other - on the street, in the coffee shop, in the building they share for their religious services. Life as it could be in the real world.

It is now shown in 80 countries - but not the USA where people, or is it the government, refuse to give up their irrational prejudices.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 03:50 PM

Both?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 03:59 AM

Lox, you have avoided a question several times now.
A straight answer, either way, would end our discussion for me.

Is it wrong to say that British Pakistanis generally do not approve of girls having relationships with males?
Or that marriages are very often arranged at a young age?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 05:09 AM

I THINK WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO SAY KEITH, IS THAT THERE IS NO GENERALITY ABOUT ASIAN FAMILIES. THERES ALL KINDS OF STUFF GOING ON - JUST AS THERE IS WITH ENGLISH FOLK.

WE DON'T ALL HAVE TATTOOS, BODY PIERCINGS, TAKE HEROIN, HAVE DRINK PROBLEMS AND KEEP VICIOUS DOGS. ALTHOUGH OBSERVATION ATTESTS THST A LARGE NUMBER OF US DO.

SORRY ABOUT THE CAPITALS LOCK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 05:11 AM

See the Jeremy Kyle show - and die of shame.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 06:04 AM

No such thing as cultural differences?
What do sociologists and anthropologists do with themselves?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:14 AM

Keith,

I don't like the words "right" and "wrong".

As you have asked though, I will do my best to answer and will explain my answer, which I have thought about carefully and honestly.

Yes it is wrong to state those things as "information"

It is right to refer to those things as subject matter to be discussed.


I would see those comments as the opening comment in an investigation rather than as a piece of information.

i.e.

British Pakistanis generally do not approve of girls having relationships with males and marriages are very often arranged at a young age - Discuss.

A conclusion of such an investigation would without any doubt include essential qualifications without which the integrity of the conclusion would be in doubt.

To leave those kind of qualifications out would be to CHANGE the conclusion.

As purported pieces of simplified information, they are potentially misleading as they oversimplify the whole picture to the point that they actually create an misleading ad therefore inaccurate picture.

If a person with no experience of Moslems were to ask what they were like and got that answer, they would have a distorted image.

Another equally selective and misleading way of describing the same thing would be to say, in isolation, that British Pakistani Girls are spending more and more time with boys these days, rebelling against their parents, smoking fags etc, which, without knowledge of how much they are rebelling and without a context, again could give a misleading impression of a demographic going wild.

The RIGHT way to present the truth is the way that you would be expected to tell it in court - the WHOLE truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:20 AM

Would you say that this is a fair description?

Parents try to marry their daughters at the earliest age possible while men marry much later in life. The reason for this is to prevent the bride from losing her respectability through personal encounters with other men. Whilst the man marries much later in life as he is responsible for providing for his wife and future children. For most Pakistani men it takes time before they are economically established for this role. This of course means the bride will marry a man considerably older than herself, an age difference of ten years is not uncommon.
Parents start saving towards the cost of the wedding from the birth of their child as marriage is expensive. The most common marriage arrangement is between first cousins. If a first cousin of suitable age is not found then a second or third cousin will do. Marriages between unrelated couples are uncommon.

Though Pakistanis have immigrated in groups an entire family including extended relations is not always present in the UK. In such cases the marriage partner will be in Pakistan. Where one partner is in Pakistan problems are often encountered if the partner is male. Experience suggests UK immigration officials are usually quite happy to grant visas for brides from Pakistan to enter the country, however men from Pakistan usually face a long and ardous struggle to gain entry to the UK

Whether the prospective partners are allowed to see each other prior to the wedding depends on the families concerned. If one partner lives in Pakistan a photo may be all that is provided. when partners are allowed to meet, the meeting will take place amongst the two families who will be present at all times. It is not unusual for the couple to have no direct contact prior to the wedding.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 08:00 AM

The stilted English is because it is source material produced by a German university.
No culture is exactly homogeneous.
That hardly needs stating.
It can still be informative to describe aspects of a culture, and British Pakistanis are a very culturally distinct group.

We are all used to discussing the fact that there are two culturally distinct groups within the racially homogeneous population of Northern Ireland.
Alan has alluded to aspects of working class culture, sometimes derogatorily referred to as chav culture, within the white British community.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 08:03 AM

""If you want a response to all that other stuff, one at a time please.

And yes, find anything by me that is racist and I walk.
""

How convenient!

We read through your longest posts and respond to them, but you pick and choose, and ignore what you either can't, or don't want to answer.

Coincidental I'm sure, but the post you want to ignore is the one in which your comments as documented do indeed have overtly racist overtones.

In nine posts you used the word "Pakistani" once, the word "Islam" once and the word "Muslim" six times, every time in direct connection with words such as "grooming", "crime", "terrorism", and in opposition to the words "white" and "Christian".

If you are, as you claim, a man of tolerance and integrity, read that post and respond, as I have no intention of re-posting it one question at a time.

It was posted in its current form in direct response to your claim never to have stated that this problem was a Muslim problem, or the responsibility of Islam.

(""From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 06:43 AM

Don, on 24th January I said about this issue "It is nothing to do with Islam. "
I do not "see the problem as a Muslim one,"
I have always said specifically that it is not.
"")

That claim now lacks any vestige of credibility in the face of comments fom you, such as: ""This particular crime, dubbed street grooming, is the domain of male muslim gangs according to the people in a position to know."", people whom you do not see fit to identify, and comment for which you provide no source, credible or otherwise.

In fact the person best placed to know, the policeman in charge of the enquiry, holds a directly opposite view, as I quoted in that long post you couldn't be bothered to read.

If you are unable or unwilling to read it and respond, then members will be entitled to draw their own conclusions as to your agenda.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 10:53 AM

Don, it is not just me who does not bother with screen-fulls of text.
No one does.
That is why I never do it.

To reply to everything in your post would require an even longer one.

It is already accepted by everyone that the culprits (in these particular crimes only) were overwhelmingly from the Pakistani community.
Lox commented, "All you're doing is showing us again that the gangs in this case are predominantly made up of Pakistanis."

We had gone beyond that to explore possible explanations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 10:58 AM

By your own admission, time for ya to go & don't let the door hit youin the arse on the way out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:15 AM

As soon as anyone puts up a racist or bigoted statement I have made Greg, I am gone.
Just don't bury it in acres of text.
Put the very worst one up all on its own for all to see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 12:53 PM

"bury" it? Please.

Question is: Is it there or is it not?

Answer in the affirmative.

G'bye.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 01:16 PM

=== MtheGM as usual dribbles into his bib with glee after regurgitating the same dull quip as usual, I just hope that with this level of over excitement his colostomy bag is properly attached. ===

Only just come across this of yours of a couple of days ago. Charming as ever, Lox; but I confess self somewhat puzzled by it: have never needed one, & tho oldish, still don't ~~ a bit of prostate trouble necessitated a little catheterisation a year or two back, but other functions OK, glad to report. {Too much info? Ah, well, who raised the subject?} Not quite sure what point you were intending to make. Perhaps you would care to explain yourself?

Regards

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 02:48 PM

Keith,

"It can still be informative to describe aspects of a culture, and British Pakistanis are a very culturally distinct group."

Indeed, the study of culture can be very interesting and informative, not to mention useful in learning to understand culture.

But it is important for you to be sure you have explored the subject properly and learned to understand it fully before you start quoting academic papers that you haven't fully taken the time to digest as evidence to support hypotheses concerning the causes of crime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 02:57 PM

'In fact the person best placed to know, the policeman in charge of the enquiry, holds a directly opposite view'

So cynical - you know damn well no public official could express any such a view, whatever the facts. This matter was brought to public attention by the daily Telegraph, which is slightly to the political right of Mussolini on many matters, but its not gutter press - whatever its many failings.

Its a matter of judgement, the Telegraph may not have opened the batting if suspicion had fallen on a group of tory MP's - but I doubt if they would have proceeded if the worries had been groundless - like say the Mail would.

Temper your arguments with a bit of savvy about the state of Great Britain, as grown ups know it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 03:15 PM

Lox,
Four days ago I said to you

"I admit to making a generalistion about B.P. culture.
I said that girls are generally discouraged from engaging in courtship.
Are you saying that is false?"

You could have spared us dozens of acrimonious posts if you had just said something like,

"The culture is not homogeneous, and it is changing, but that is broadly correct."

Why do you find it so hard?
We could have moved on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 04:36 PM

Only a tiny minority are ever involved in this crime but, as you acknowledge, they are over represented and that requires an explanation.

The explanation lies subtly buried in your question, Keith, in the two little words "tiny minority."


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 04:55 PM

Steve, it does not explain why they are so over represented in this, but no other crime.
It is interesting.
It is also interesting how much so many people do not want to think about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:00 PM

I'm not sure I want to think about it. Theres not much you can do about it.

I think that basically we all have an interest in our society functioning without too much confrontation and nastiness. And hopefully good sense will prevail in seeing that the other stuff doesn't get the upper hand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 12:21 AM

Good sense doesn't prevail, does it though, Al, by asserting that facts are not facts, or might not be facts, or even if they are facts they can be wished away, as that pompous & foul-mouthed & coprophiliac booby Lox is wasting all our time by persisting in doing?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 04:29 AM

What difference does it make what us old farts assert. unless the old fart in question is Rupert Murdoch.

some people think one thing. some another. no point in scratching each others eyes out.

I have very eccentric views about folk music. I know what i think, but mudcat has taught me a lesson - albeit a painful one. Its no use arguing for the views that sustain you. Just let them breasthe at the back of your mind.

Some arseholes have gone to war about how many angels can dance on a pinhead. Luckily I don't have a standing army to assert that gerry Lockran played folk music.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 05:59 AM

Keith,

Pakistanis are only overrepresented in Pakistani Gangs.

They are not overrepresented in sex trafficking, abduction or paedophilia.

As for what I could have said, my answer is NO I don't agree.


My position is merely "The culture is not homogeneous, and it is changing" with no added bits for your benefit.

In addition, (please pay attention to this point for a change) the context of the discussion is "moslem Prejudice" and the reason for the mention of these crimes is within that context.

The hypothesis being debated is that Pakistani/Moslem culture is to blame for the actions of an organized crime gang.

Your 'investigation' remains a subsection of that argument and as such needs to be treated with caution and any generalizations drawn from it should be confronted and clarified as they do not constitute support for that hypothesis.

The best that can be said about your generalization is that it is interestiing, but too subject to reasonable doubt to cast any light on the issue of organized trafficking of underage girls.

I'm just staying on topic, and in the light of the topic, your posts serve as apologist.


MtheGM on the other hand seems to have begun contributing to this thread for one purpose only and it clearly has nothing to do with any of the subjects being discussed. What a pathetic excuse for a man. I bet he smells funny too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 06:11 AM

.

STOP PRESS

80 American Nationals arrested by CIA in south east Asia for the rape of underage girls!


The full story


I wonder if these criminals were driven to their crimes by a repressive cultural regime?

.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 06:15 AM

So far in this thread we have referred to sex crimes and trafficking against young women and underage girls committed by Romanians, Russians, Americans and British Pakistanis.

Yet here we are arguing about whether one group has a different motivation berrought on by the "regime" imposed on them by their culture.


Why aren't you looking for the common denominator Keith?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 08:54 AM

A prominent British Pakistani has offered an alternative theory to that of Straw and Cryer.
'They are forced into marriages and they are not happy. They are married to girls from overseas who they don't have anything in common with, and they have children and a family.

'But they are looking for fun in their sexual activities and seek out vulnerable girls.'

He said Asian men resort to abusing young white girls because they do not want meaningful relationships with adult white women.
'An adult woman – if you are having an affair – would want your time, money and for you to break up your marriage,' the peer added.

His comments come weeks after former Foreign Secretary Jack Straw provoked national outrage by saying that some Pakistani men look at white girls as 'easy meat' for sexual abuse.

Labour peer Lord Ahmed said: 'I get a lot of criticism from Asian people who ask, "How can you say this about Asian men?" But they must wake up and realise there is a problem.

'I am deeply worried about this as it has happened in my own backyard, and in Rochdale and Bradford.

'This didn't happen in my or my father's generation. This is happening among young Asians. While I respect individual choice, I think the community needs to look at marriages in the UK rather than cousin marriages or economic marriages from abroad.'


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 09:03 AM

Atma Singh, from the Sikh Community Action Network, said: "Well done to Jack Straw for being 100 per cent honest and saying what many people already know – that there are pockets of youngsters in the Pakistani Muslim community who treat girls from other communities as sexual objects."

Mohammed Shafiq, director of the Muslim youth group the Ramadan Foundation said 53 out of the last 65 convictions for grooming had involved British Pakistanis.

"The reality is that there is an issue," he said. "There is a perception that these white girls have lesser morals and lesser values than women from Pakistani heritage.

"It's abhorrent and there needs to be debate."

However, he criticised Mr Straw for only raising the issue once he had left government, despite being warned about the problem two and a half years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 09:13 AM

'They are forced into marriages and they are not happy. They are married to girls from overseas who they don't have anything in common with, and they have children and a family.

'But they are looking for fun in their sexual activities and seek out vulnerable girls.'

He said Asian men resort to abusing young white girls because they do not want meaningful relationships with adult white women.
'An adult woman – if you are having an affair – would want your time, money and for you to break up your marriage,' the peer added....

'...This didn't happen in my or my father's generation.


What's with all the "they" do you suppose, Keith? Does he mean "these people?" All of 'em? Some of 'em? A few of 'em? And did he say anywhere why it didn't happen in his dad's generation? Have testosterone levels gone up? And what's with the adult woman bit? That applies to anyone contemplating an affair, n'est-ce pas? I think you need to find better allies than your peer, Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Smedley
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 09:15 AM

Anyone care to guess how long it'll take Lox to post four replies to that ? Then another couple from Keith..... Round and round we go.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Smedley
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 09:17 AM

The 'that' referred to was Keith's latest fistful of bouquets, to clear up any confusion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 09:19 AM

Mohammed Shafiq, director of the Muslim youth group the Ramadan Foundation said 53 out of the last 65 convictions for grooming had involved British Pakistanis.

"The reality is that there is an issue," he said. "There is a perception that these white girls have lesser morals and lesser values than women from Pakistani heritage.


Perhaps you could get your fellow to explain to us why he thinks (as he apparently does) that Pakistani girls have such high moral values whilst Pakistani boys, on the other hand, go around like tomcats shagging every underage white girl in sight. Odd, that. Either that or it's yet another load of old bollix, Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 09:26 AM

I do not know how else to respond when Lox says there is no issue, and a distict BP culture does not exist.

Who do I have to put up before you will open your minds and discuss reality?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 09:29 AM

Actually Smedley, and Keith, I would not care to explain any more testimony provided.

When Keith has found proof of his hypothesis that sex crimes committed by Pakistani men are the result of a diffenert motivation to sex crimes committed by any other demographic, he may draw my attention to it by starting a thread on thiat subject.

Until then, there is no reason why I should bother trawling along on this thread ad infinitum.

Lord Ahmed doesn't speak for inner city Pakistanis any more than Gaddafi does.

He may be Moslem, but that does not make him any more representative of Workig Class Moslems than Nick Clegg is of working class whites.

I wish you luck.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 09:50 AM

This is from BBC site about Ahmed.

I would like to be told who knows more about British Pakistanis, working class or not, than he does.

Not you anyway Lox.
What else can you do but walk?

The peer also openly clashed with his party's leadership in October 2006 when he openly criticised the way British Muslims were treated.

He told the BBC there was "a constant theme of demonisation of the Muslim community" and that politicians were jumping on a bandwagon by "having a go" at Muslims.

He said people were exploiting the fact that some within the Muslim community threatened national security.

Property developer

As a high-profile leader of the Muslim community, Lord Ahmed has played a role in easing tensions after the London bombings in July 2005 and the 9/11 attacks on the US in 2001.

Three months after 9/11 he hit the headlines after claiming the government had tapped his phone because of his opposition to the war in Afghanistan.

It was a claim the government denied.

Lord Ahmed, 51, was born in Pakistan but has lived in Rotherham, in South Yorkshire, since his childhood.

He studied public administration at Sheffield Hallam University and joined the Labour Party at the age of 18.

Having distinguished himself as a proactive local councillor, he founded the British Muslim Councillors' Forum in 1992 and became a Justice of the Peace in the same year.

He was appointed to the House of Lords in 1998 as Baron Ahmed of Rotherham after several years as chairman of the South Yorkshire Labour Party.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 09:54 AM

Some of the nastiest people on the planet were incredibly well educated. Or incredibly misquoted or misreported.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 10:00 AM

Lox, you asked me to tell you when I have proof.

You forgot to tell me what you would regard as proof, since first hand testimony from high profile people with intimate knowledge of the community and the issues apparently does not suffice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 10:06 AM

Desparation Steve!
They are nasty.
On what grounds Steve.
They are misquoted.
Who would dare in a sensitive issue like this? Any complaints recorded?

You are just la la-ing with your fingers in your ears because you can not accept an obvious truth.
Open up to reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 10:53 AM

Truth? All you've given me is the credentials of your fourth-string source and quoted what seems to me to be a load of ill-considered tripe. I wasn't suggesting that particular this chap is nasty, just pointing out that you're leaning far too much on his credentials instead of what he actually says. I can't say I'm surprised, as most of what he says (or is quoted as saying) is generalising rubbish, as I indicated.

Sorry, third-string. Your fourth string is Mohammed Shafiq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 10:56 AM

Third/fourth string.

Who is better qualified to give an informed opinion?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 02:37 PM

It's always a good idea to listen to the expressed opinion first rather than simply rely on credentials. It's a bit like using Wikipedia. If you're intelligent about it it's really useful. If you're not it's dangerous shite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 04:10 PM

Straw and Cryer, impeccable.
Ahmed, an undisputed authority.
He grew up in the British Pakistani community and served it as a Labour Party local politician for his whole life.
A friend to the working class Lox.
I don't blame you for running.

Open your mind Steve.
It happened and it is OK to consider possible explanations.
Why are you people so desperate to close down honest debate and deny the obvious?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 04:34 PM

I suppose it is Keith that there are so many more desirable things to converse with this non homogenous community about.

If there is criminality - then the authorities will deal with it and it will sink in that, that's not the way to go.

What will our arguments do other than show our suspicion and dislike, and give succour to those elements in our society that would have us fighting.

The act as committed is not sanctioned by any respectable spiritual leader. God knows there wacko christian groups advocating bad stuff. But thats what they are....... wackos. Human kind knows when it is acting cruelly or badly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 04:57 PM

"..there are so many more desirable things to converse..."
Yes there are.
I would not have instigated this discussion.
Neither did Lox, but he was at it for three days before I joined in.

Denying the reality of a problem is not the way to deal with it.
I tried to persuade him to confront the truth of it.
He chose to turn away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 05:59 PM

Nobody's running or turning away, Keith. We have minds of our own and, whilst we listen to these pundits you keep throwing at us as if they have the monopoly on the last word, we prefer to use those brains we've been endowed with. Not just go with the flow. Listen to the beat of the distant drummer, etc. Think for ourselves. Blair was an amazingly authoritative guru on the WMDs, remember?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 06:47 PM

Keith,

Don't be an idiot.

I'm not running from anything.

You have done nothing to demonstrate that sex crimes committed by Pakistani Moslems are different to sex crimes committed by anyone else.

The thread above shows this to be true and anyone reading it will see for themselves.

My arguments, which you have ignored and which expose more than enough reasonable doubt, stand unchallenged, as do the factual examples I have provided, which you have also ignored.

Your determination to hang on only shows one thing - that you really really want to prove that Pakistanis Moslems are different and that their sex crimes come from a different motivation.

If thats what you want then go for it.

You probably see it as a challenge to win such a debate.

I live in the real world.

Now I really have to go back to it because:

1, your fantasy world is unpleasant.

2, anyone who takes the time to read this thread from the start will note
a, your bias,
b, your inability to answer about 70% of the points I have made and
c, that the evidence which shows undeniably that these crimes are cross cultural is a lot stronger than the "evidence" (second hand opinion) which suggests they are peculiarly "British Pakistani".

Your selective mind is clearly able to shut out the bits you don't like, and now mine is going to shut you out.

If I'm running from you, its in the way that a parent 'runs' from their 14 year old when they say "I've heard what you have to say, and you still aren't allowed to go clubbing tonight - the conversation is over".

Keith, Our conversation is over.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 07:57 PM

""Mohammed Shafiq, director of the Muslim youth group the Ramadan Foundation said 53 out of the last 65 convictions for grooming had involved British Pakistanis.""

Hardly surprising as it was a single, LOCAL, gang with 53 Pakistani members and 12 of their non Pakstani friends.

I hope this is short enough for your self confessed miniscule attention span Keith.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 08:03 PM

""He told the BBC there was "a constant theme of demonisation of the Muslim community" and that politicians were jumping on a bandwagon by "having a go" at Muslims.""

And now, along with Keith A of Hertford, he has decided to book a seat on that same bandwagon!!

Figures!!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 02:14 AM

Repeated storming in and storming out is just as irrational as your earlier ranting anger.
Why can we not have a normal discussion?
Don, you are very angry, without even familiarising with the issue.
It is not a single gang in a single case.
But in 17 court cases since 1997 where groups of men were prosecuted for grooming 11 to 16 year old girls on the street, 53 of the 56 people found guilty were Asian, 50 of them Muslim, while just three were white.

For a minority group that is a massive over representation that is not seen in other crimes.
The question why has to be asked.
Not by us of course, but I did not start it.

Respected, intelligent people with intimate knowledge of the culture have put forward plausible explanations.
Why does that make you angry?
It is irrational.

However plausible, no explanation is provable.
One consequence of the culture of cousin marriage is a large over representation of Pakistanis in infant mortality and crippling genetic disease.
The link here IS provable but that debate has also been rejected as racist by many in the community.
Is that rational?

I will not storm out, but I will not put up any more evidence.
I am prepared to discuss rationally, or leave it there.
Over to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 03:40 AM

"Keith, Our conversation is over"
·····

To tune of The Wicked Witch Is Dead ~~~

♫Hey-ho
Bravo bravo
Hey hey hey
Oh frabjous day
Hey hey the noxious Lox is gone♪ ...

Maybe


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 05:23 AM

A rationality test.

Studies have been done to see how different cultural groups benefit from British education system.
Anyone angry about that?

Pakistanis were found to be high achievers.
Angry?
Afro Caribbean boys, and especially white working class boys, were found to be disadvantaged.
Angry yet?
Studies are underway to see how these cultural factors can be overcome.
Anyone need to storm out?
Of course not.
That would be irrational.

An ethnic group is found to be over represented in a particular crime, and suggestions offered as to why.
Storming out in anger.
Yes.
But why?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 05:26 AM

But in 17 court cases since 1997 where groups of men were prosecuted for grooming 11 to 16 year old girls on the street, 53 of the 56 people found guilty were Asian, 50 of them Muslim, while just three were white.


That is indeed a very alarming statistic. I assume it is verified, Keith? But are we working on the same basis that in the 70's and 80's most youths involved in stop and search operations were black? I am not disagreeing or agreeing - just wondering if the figures have been skewed by an inherent predjudice against asian gangs by police? Or are the groups of non-moslem paedophiles more sophisticated and not as easy to convict?

Genuine curiousity on my part - No axe to grind. Hopefuly valid questions to ask but I don't know if anyone here is qualified to answer:-(

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 05:35 AM

Not me Dave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 05:54 AM

I got it from this Telegraph piece, which takes the quote from the Times.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8240202/Cover-up-claims-over-Asian-sex-gangs.html
It has not been challenged even in the liberal press


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 01:45 PM

""It is not a single gang in a single case.
But in 17 court cases since 1997 where groups of men were prosecuted for grooming 11 to 16 year old girls on the street, 53 of the 56 people found guilty were Asian, 50 of them Muslim, while just three were white.
""

Seventeen cases in thirteen years, over what catchment area, and as compared to how many in that area where there were no Asian or Muslim defendants?

You really can't just quote selective figures without putting them in context.

For example, if those seventeen cases were in the same court, or a few very local courts, the defendants could very well have been members of the same gang, in fact almost inevitably would be, given that most gangs are intolerant of rival gangs on their turf.

If the seventeen cases were spread over a much wider area, then they would not be statistically significant unless compared with the number of cases with few, or no, Asian or Muslim defendants.

You see, while you search uncritically for anything or anyone to bolster your anti Muslim bias, I use my rational faculties to produce logical counter arguments.

You are wrong about something else too. I am not angry, because your inability to handle a simple discussion is your problem and not worth my anger, or even irritation.

You ask why we can't have a normal discussion? I'll tell you why!

1. Because one of us is unwilling or unable to discuss anything rationally.

2, Because one of us believes that quoting the opinions of self styled experts trumps both rational thinking and rational argument.

3. Because one of us actually believes what he reads in the papers, and believes that "expert" opinion is fact, relieving him of the responsibility for policing his own prejudices.

4. Because one of us can't be bothered to read what other people post in discussion, much less respond to its content.

""I will not storm out, but I will not put up any more evidence.
I am prepared to discuss rationally, or leave it there.
Over to you.
""

1. You have thus far not put up any evidence other than hearsay.

2. You have had ample opportunity to discuss, rationally or otherwise, and have as yet shown no inclination to do so.

3. By all means do storm out, or stay. Your presence or absence is a matter of total indifference to me.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 03:35 PM

""An ethnic group is found to be over represented in a particular crime, and suggestions offered as to why.
Storming out in anger.
Yes.
""

This red herring is past its sell by date. Over the whole of the UK, Asians and Muslims are a small minority of the population, but they are not evenly spread throughout the UK.

There are localised areas in which they are in fact a majority, and if, within the confines of those areas there is a criminal gang operating, that gang is likely to consist mainly of Asians and/or Muslims.

Anger?.......NO! LOGIC!


""But in 17 court cases since 1997 where groups of men were prosecuted for grooming 11 to 16 year old girls on the street, 53 of the 56 people found guilty were Asian, 50 of them Muslim, while just three were white.""

Don't be taken in by the glib rhetoric DeG.

Thirteen years........17 cases.........53 Muslims.........3 Non-Muslim Asians of unspecified ethnicity,.......and 3 whites who may or may not have been Muslims themselves.

Did anybody ask them?.......No matter.

Take it at face value, and apply a little logic, as requested by Keith.

Breaking the figures down we have:

Average, one case every 9.18 months for 156 months.

Average, 3.29 defendants per case, of which 2.93 Muslims, 0.18 Non Muslim Asians, and 0.18 whites.

So, an average of three Muslims, one fifth of a non-Muslim Asian, and one fifth of a white whatever, are caught committing this crime once every nine months.

We have no idea how many other whites commit the same crime, because the commentators, including our own minority bashers haven't bothered to make the comparison with non Pakistani, and non-Muslim gangs.

Can anybody here suggest that, in the absence of that comparison, the above figures have even the most ephemeral statistical significance?

If so, I'd like a joint of whatever you're smoking.

LOGIC Keith!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 03:58 PM

In fairness to Keith, he didn't have to search very far. The front page of a quality (albeit right wing) newspaper - with a shit hot record for hot potato subjects - like the MP's fiddling their allowances.

Anyway - we'll find out soon enough - now the cats well ansd truly out of the bag, If there is any substance to these allegations - there are bound to be more prosecutions.

Its a bit reminiscent of the 1960's when people went about singing about pot, banging on endlessly about its benefits and that the society was 'straight'. The 'straights' went on the warpath and kicked the shit out of us.

Could it be, people have got a bit pissed off with being told that we are a secular society, all our children have no morals, and we are degenerate - often by very rich societies that can't be arsed to feed their poor.

If you go looking for a fight with 'the man' - you risk the odd poke in the mouth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 04:55 PM

From the Yorkshire News if this helps fill some gaps Don.

Derby was typical of a pattern of exploitation being tracked by police and experts around Britain.

The girls tended to be 16 or younger. Often they were from challenging backgrounds - homes with inconsistent parenting, or with a history of alcohol or drug problems.

And there is one controversial factor that many of the experts in the field are often not happy to discuss freely. The race of the abusers.

The string of convictions in cities such as Rotherham, Preston, Blackburn, Rochdale and now Derby have more often than not involved Asian men, specifically men of Pakistani origin, and mainly Muslim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 05:03 PM

Sorry if I misjudged your mood Don.
You certainly came across as angry.
Just unfriendly?

If you are challenging that there is an unusual distribution here, I will happily discuss that with you.
We have been accepting that.

If it is real, then why?
I did not offer the explanations of Straw, Cryer and Ahmed over those of others.
No other explanation has been offered.
It is like a taboo.
Also no one has found fault with those suggestions.
Obviously they can not be proved, but how is it justified to dismiss them out of hand?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 05:04 PM

This thread has of course become a wonderful example of "Orwellian liberalism" in action.

As Keith attempts to engage in meaningful discussion without rancour, the "liberals" line up to demonise him...disgusting.

The real issue is double standards, exactly what we have seen on all the controversial threads is happening again, if an issue which is in conflict with the "liberal" agenda cannot be proved conclusively, discussion is blocked and shrill screams of "bigot" are heard.

Strangely enough, the "liberals" will proclaim the rightness of THEIR causes on no evidence whatsoever......usually "Its just not fair"

As Al says perhaps we shall see the truth emerge from the rubble of our destroyed kids.....but I have not much faith in our justice system to stand against the minority pressure groups.
It is all too easy to break honest men on the wheel of "liberal fascism"

Melanie Phillips, a woman whom I oppose on all political issues,
puts the position succinctly.


Melanie Phillips


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 05:25 PM

and more specifically Muslim gangs


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 05:40 PM

The other "elephant in the room", conveniently ignored by people like Don, is that senior police sources say "we are seeing only the tip of the iceberg in these prosecutions."
Child protection agencies and even the police are afraid to investigate complaints, as these investigations are portrayed as racial attacks and bigotry by "liberals".

Contrast the views of "liberals" to the RC priest abuse scandal and this racism being practiced by muslim men against young white or non-muslim girls. Not one of the victims was Muslim!

Only a fool could fail to see the double standards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 05:52 PM

Maybe the Muslim mums and dads wouldn't let their Muslim daughters out at night, that's why. There, achy tony. A stupid reply to your stupid points. All they deserve really.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 06:11 PM

'A stupid reply to your stupid points'

that's just abuse. in a way though Steve, I hope you're right and its just scare mongering. like I say. let's not argue, or take up positions....lets see what happens.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 06:42 PM

Who's abusing who, Alan? Same old "liberal double standards" shite all over again innit. And just look at the plethora of weasel words in his latest post. Not exactly debate as we know it, is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 07:03 PM

Steven ....I dont generally abuse people on this forum.
As Al says your remark was insulting. I certainly dont accuse you of stupidity.

Further up this thread, I believe I said that I thought you daft. That was intended as a lighthearted response to what I presumed to be some banter from you.

"Ah, the Daily Mail on Mudcat. Can you demonstrate that the young men in question performed their actions in the name of Allah, were pointing to Mecca chanting prayers during the rapes, or were following instructions in the Q'ran? Don't be so bloody daft."

Now that statement is deliberately obstructive, as the attitude of some Muslim Pakistani men towards young British girls has been adequately illustrated by the statements of those most closely associated to the Pakistani Muslim community including members of that community.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 07:22 PM

Oh God, please read the thread, will you. Nice recanting there, by the way, saying that you were being "light-hearted." Ha bloody ha. And the Daily Mail bit of mine you quoted was a deadly serious challenge to your received wisdoms. I repeat. Show me that these young men did what they did in the name of Islam and I'll let you off saying your intolerant things like "Pakistani Muslim men towards young British girls..."

To show I make an effort, I read that tosh from Ms Phillips, whom God preserve, that you linked to. How wonderful the experience was. I mean, take this gem:

And the problem with the gay agenda, it has always seemed to me, is that it has sought instead to commandeer the public sphere by ­dictating a profound change in the moral norms of our society — indeed, to destroy the very idea of moral norms at all.

Ha, whose moral norms? Hers? (heaven forfend!) Christian ones? Establishment ones? Nice bit of moral imperialism there!

To cap that, as if that were possible, she doesn't miss the opportunity further down the article to have a pop at Islamic attitudes to gay people. Well, there's irony for you!


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Feb 11 - 01:20 AM

Akenaton: "As Al says your remark was insulting. I certainly don't accuse you of stupidity."

Well you're a patient and forgiving man, Akenaton. I think he has shown immeasurable amounts of stupidity in here, plenty of times!

Now as to the topic, It's sorta hypocritical, that many people, some in here, blast all Christians, because of what the Catholic Church did during the inquisition, so they paint all Christians with that brush, even when the Catholic Church was killing Christians who would not fall under their 'authority'...the same can be said about the Muslims, and the more radical zealots who are being CONNED by their 'superiors'. You'd think that that a Muslim, who thinks that blowing himself up, taking a lot of innocent people with him, was a sure way to martyrdom, and an 'E-Ticket to Heaven' to shake hand with Allah, and ask him where the 72 babes are, you'd think they'd be the first in line!!!...but No-o-o-o, they've gotta' hustle the simple-minded ones to do their dirty work, so that they, the 'leaders' can reap the benefits of this temporal 'power'(?)....maybe be 'King' of an area!

Some of you get pissed off at a Nativity scene, or a cross, on the grounds of separation of church and state, but give leniency to having Sharia law accommodated within our form of government. ..and Sharia law has direct allowances for parents 'honor killing' their children!...Go figure!
I guess its the liberal thing to think.....until it hits home!

GfS

P.S. Hi, Ake was just thinking about you the last couple days...we finally crossed paths again....Regards!


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Feb 11 - 01:44 AM

"Muslim mums and dads wouldn't let their Muslim daughters out at night, that's why."
Undeniably true, but a generalisation about BP culture.
To Lox, you are now a bigot Steve.
Welcome.
He would not even accept that " BP girls are discouraged from engaging in courtship."

Don you referred to Lox providing facts.
I wish you would remind me what they were.
I do not remember any.
Just negativity. The theories were wrong but he would not say why, just heaping abuse on the authors.
And no alternative theory.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Feb 11 - 03:51 AM

Steven, these criminals dont require to perform their crimes in the "name of Allah", or strictly in compliance "with the Koran", they only require to be brought up in the midst of a culture which views the behaviour of our children as unclean and immoral.

As I stated earlier,even if this assertion was true, it does not give any other culture the right to practice racism against them, or dehumanise them into sex objects to be used.....often not for money, but to family members.

Regarding your last post, the norms referred to I suppose were society's norms. The norms of producing and contributing to an extended family.....normal breeding patterns....the norms which stabilise humanity and produce some sort of order in human existence.
Simply tacking a word like "marriage" on to certain types of human behaviour, does not make it necessarily beneficial to society.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Feb 11 - 04:44 AM

Sorry GfS....Good to see you again.   Busy makin' music?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 01 Feb 11 - 05:12 AM

well i don't see liberal as a term of abuse. I think people should have as much freedom as possible.

Really theres too much abuse going on in this conversation for proper communication to take place. 'Weasel words' for godsake. Weasels don't talk.

On second thoughts - perhaps they do have learned debates with other weasels. Perhaps they have the answer to all our differences, and that's what we need - a weasel dialectic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 01 Feb 11 - 05:13 AM

"Just negativity. The theories were wrong but he would not say why, just heaping abuse on the authors.
And no alternative theory."

Keith, the above ius either a lie or you are illiterate.

All of the above have been provided, you have just chosen to ignore them and your tunnel vision has been very specifically focussed on bolstering your hypthesis.

On which subject, I'm glad to see that more 'powerful' evidence has been provided to support your case.

The personal opinion of two politicians has been corroborated in undeniable scientific fashion by the opinion of a columnist for the daily mail.

So I suppose that settles it.

Interesting that since I dropped out Ake, Keith and GfS have all staged such a courageous comeback.

Also interesting that Keith should so brazenly misrepresent my posts.

Again, it shows one of two things - he is either a liar or he doesn't have the comprehension skills to understand.

None of his misrepresentations of my posts of course com eclose to this unbelievable bit of selective quoting.

Steve says: "Maybe the Muslim mums and dads wouldn't let their Muslim daughters out at night, that's why. There, achy tony. A stupid reply to your stupid points."

i.e, that would be a stupid point to make.

i.e he doesn't think so.

i'e he doesn't think thats really the reason.

Keith chops off a few words at the end and attributes this view to Steve.

"the Muslim mums and dads wouldn't let their Muslim daughters out at night"

And in addition, then puts the point to Steve that that therefore I would see him as peddling racist ideology.


I think on that point alone Keith blows his cover as a serious debater or even a person of integrity.

I would recommend to Alan and Steve to let this thread die, as it only exists so that the saddos can get attention.

That includes Ake, Keith, GfS and MtheGM, who really should be wheeled back in and strapped down before he hurts himself with the Play-dough cutlery.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 01 Feb 11 - 05:28 AM

Oh no, I forgot about Lord Ahmed.

Well Keith, I caan tell you that I have lived in a Moslem Ghetto significantly more recently than him.

I doubt very much if he has set foot in any of the poor Moslem areas for a good twenty years, unless it was to collect rent.

I lived in Britains most thriving Moslem community for a year aand a half, and I lived side by side with Pakistani moslems, and looked after their kids and they looked after mine throughout that time.

Being an opinionated person, i talked, deebated, argued with annyone who had aa point of view, and that was everyone from the very old to the very young, men and women.


But all that is by the by.


Opinion does not constitute testimony unless it is supported by evidence. Opinion is not evidence in its own right.

There is no evidence that Pakistani sex crimes are driven by a different motivation than other sex crimes. To suggest otherwise is to suggest that Pakistani culture by nature inevitably compels its constituents to be driven to sex crimes where other cultures don't.

This is clearly slander until research can show otherwise.

Keith could start developing his literacy by learning the difference between expert testimony and vague political opinion.

I think it is very sad that people should spend so much of their lives trying to prove that other cultures are Bad.

Especially as, while they are doing it, more sex crrimes are probably being comitted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 11 - 05:30 AM

Thanks for that, Lox. You saved me from having to do a lot of typing there. Yes, they really have started to crawl out of the woodwork now, haven't they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,alan Whittle
Date: 01 Feb 11 - 05:48 AM

Okay. One last try. Then I'm off to join the weasels.

How about if everybody stated their point of view on this subject without giving an opinion of the other guy with the seemingly opposing view?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Feb 11 - 05:51 AM

I can't recall what I said that originally seems to have offended Lox so much; but it led somehow to my [a perfectly normal, twice happily-married, tho approaching 80th year, man] having become subject of his most peculiar fantasies: first of his coprophilia, and now of his bondage-orientation.

I'm not so much worried or offended for myself, as concerned for the state of (what passes for) his mind. For goodness' sake, Lox, ease off & stop breathing so heavy, before you do yourself a mischief.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Feb 11 - 05:53 AM

Not a liar Lox.
Maybe I do lack the comprehension skill, but I genuinely can not remember you explaining the over representation.
Will you remind me?
Also the logical flaws you found in the explanations of Straw, Cryer and Ahmed.

I think you are wrong about Steve.
He probably does think Muslim daughters are not allowed out at night.
It is a commonplace.
He will tell us.
It is exactly the generalisation you said I should not make.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 11 - 06:00 AM

The other "elephant in the room", conveniently ignored by people like Don, is that senior police sources say "we are seeing only the tip of the iceberg in these prosecutions."
Child protection agencies and even the police are afraid to investigate complaints, as these investigations are portrayed as racial attacks and bigotry by "liberals".


Educate yerself as to weasel words. Here are the examples from the Wiki article:

"A growing body of evidence..." (Where is the raw data for your review?)

"People say..." (Which people? How do they know?)

"It has been claimed that..." (By whom, where, when?)

"Critics claim..." (Which critics?)

"Clearly..." (As if the premise is undeniably true)

"It stands to reason that..." (Again, as if the premise is undeniably true—see "Clearly" above)

"Questions have been raised..." (Implies a fatal flaw has been discovered)

"I heard that..." (Who told you? Is the source reliable?)

"There is evidence that..." (What evidence? Is the source reliable?)

"Experience shows that..." (Whose experience? What was the experience? How does it demonstrate this?)

"It has been mentioned that..." (Who are these mentioners? Can they be trusted?)

"Popular wisdom has it that..." (Is popular wisdom a test of truth?)

"Commonsense has it/insists that..." (The common sense of whom? Who says so? See "Popular wisdom" above, and "It is known that" below)

"It is known that..." (By whom and by what method is it known?)

"Officially known as..." (By whom, where, when—who says so?)
"It turns out that..." (How does it turn out?)

"It was noted that..." (A commonly used start of a line by Auditors with poor workpapers or little evidence)

"See why more of our trucks are sold in Southern California than in any other part of the country." (Southern California is a big vehicle market.)

"Nobody else's product is better than ours." (What is the evidence of this?)

"Studies show..." (what studies?)

"(The phenomenon) came to be seen as..." (by whom?)

"Some argue..." (who?)

"Up to sixty percent..." (so, 59%? 50%? 10%?)

"More than seventy percent..." (How many more? 70.01%? 80%? 90%?)

"The vast majority..." (All, more than half—how many?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 01 Feb 11 - 06:05 AM

My God! You can't even trust a weasel these days!


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 11 - 06:07 AM

Lox explained all that to you, Keith. And he did a very good job. Read and learn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Feb 11 - 07:49 AM

So you could give us his explanation of the over representation, and the logical flaws he found in the others?
Please.

And, do you think young BP girls are allowed out at night?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 01 Feb 11 - 08:09 AM

Keith, why don't you read it for yourself.

It is all in this thread.

It isn't Steve's or my responsibility to recycle it for you if you are too lazy to read it through and try to understand my arguments yourself.

I will know you have read them when your responses reflect that you have digested their meaning and understood them.

Intelligent debate requires intelligent engagement with opposing viewpoints.

In your case, it mainly involves sidestepping inconvenient information and rationale, selective quotation of your opponents, the creation of straw men and tunnel vision.

Noone has said that Moslems or British Pakistanis deserve special treatment ... that is ...

... Noone except you and Ake ... who argue that they should be treated differently on the basis that you are suggesting that their culture inspires an inevitable predisposition to the grooming and abuse of underage girls, while the same crimes committed by other cultures must therefore inspired by a different motivation.

YOU, Ake, Jack Straw, Anne Cryer, Lord Ahmed and that Daily Mail columnist are the ones who think that British Pakistani culture should be treated differently.

I have been refuting that and arguing that ALL sexual criminals operate from the same motivation.


So Keith and Ake, why should British Pakistaani Moslems be given special treatment?

You've been trying to back up this idea for around a week now and still haven't provided any evidence more compelling than the point of view of two labour politicians, a House of Lords Peer, and a Daily Mail columnist.

I think thats quite long enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 01 Feb 11 - 08:10 AM

.


               300


.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Feb 11 - 08:50 AM

Three Labour politicians, one of whom now a Labour peer.
I absolutely do not want special treatment for any group.
Why do you claim that?

I still can not find your explanation for the over representation.
It is not laziness.
Are you sure you ever gave one?

No explanation is provable.
All that can be said is that they are consistent with the facts.
If they are then they warrant consideration.
No flaws have been found in the explanations of Straw, Cryer or Ahmed.
Have they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Feb 11 - 09:08 AM

I asked several times for your explanation Lox.
This is the only time you responded.
You start by quoting me, but never answer.


"you have no alternative ideas."

The subject of the thread isn't "paedophile Gangs"

The subject is "Muslim Prejudice".

Is prejudice against Moslems an issue? Is it understandable? Why? What reasons? ...

... well one is that "they" traffick young white girls ...

(this is presumably after they've come over here and taken our jobs)

Well actually, this has nothing to do with Islam, or Pakistani culture, and there is no evidence or reliable argument that supports that accusation.

Wait - hang on - Keith thinks there is ... and he will fight to the bitter end to try to prove it, even when the very weak evidence he has provided is shown not to give any weight to the views he thinks are "reasonable".


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A