Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL

Subject: Tech: Planning house concert acoustics
From: maeve
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 09:18 AM

Good morning. I searched but didn't find any threads to directly address this topic; how to build in good acoustics in new home construction.

Some 'Catters know that my husband and I are rebuilding after a fire. Our new house will be a 34-side wood panel yurt with a 41 foot diameter. Practically speaking, it is a round space with a vaulted ceiling and 6 foot skylight at the center, 20 feet high. Eventually we will have just under half of the space partitioned for private life.

The rest will be open living room and kitchen, with the entire vaulted ceiling open. The rafters are Douglas Fir and the ceiling panels are Western Red Cedar. We're hoping to make good use of the very responsive (not overly echoing) acoustics of the space for personal recording and house concerts with friends. Even the ceilings for the rooms will be slanted in such a way as to enhance the sound properties rather than bounce sound off flat surfaces. We will be able to use textiles as needed to soften any harshness.

I'm hoping that those who have an understanding of sound and the way different surfaces can enhance or detract from musical applications will chime in here with suggestions for the best handling of this new opportunity. Perhaps you can suggest materials for walls or floors, or you have performed in or listened to music in similar spaces. AllanC. posted about sound in a round house in the New Beginnings thread, and it occurred to me others might have further insight. (Thanks, Allan.)

Any thoughts? Even your observations regarding the Perfect Small Venue Set-up could help. Thank you in advance.

Maeve

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning house concert acoustics
From: maeve
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 02:29 PM

Refresh...I can be patient.

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning house concert acoustics
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 02:57 PM

You'll have to invite us for a site visit.

I suspect that you won't need much for amplifying sound but you may need something for balancing voice with instruments.

What is the composition of your walls in terms of whether they are solid, hollow, or insulated?

Same question for ceiling.

Minimizing the "bounce sound off flat surfaces" by slanting room walls sounds useful.

Quilts might be nice as hangings (on ceilings or walls), if you have them or can afford them, to absorb sound.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning house concert acoustics
From: maeve
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 06:19 PM

Thanks, Charley.

Exterior walls are to be filled with blown cellulose insulation. Wallboard inside covering the cellulose, most likely with a clay-based treatment* on the wallboard. Eventually we'll build interior walls, again most likely with the clay treatment on wallboard. We're looking into insulation with sound blocking properties in the interior walls to keep private areas quiet and minimize noise leakage from bathroom and laundry areas. For now, we just have the bathroom walls framed in, no others.

"The rafters are Douglas Fir and the ceiling panels are Western Red Cedar." Solid foam insulation is between the roof and the cedar ceiling wood.

Hangings- yes, that's what I was indicating by mentioning textiles to soften harsh sound areas; We have some quilts, weavings, etc., and will add more as we can make or find them, as needed.

* Improves sound quality in a space.

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: maeve
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:15 PM

Posted too soon. I wanted to add:


What I am looking for in this thread is help in getting our home ready for music making and recording in terms of acoustics. I'm looking forward to suggestions in that regard from Mudcat's many musicians, whether enthusiastic amateurs or professional, those who work sound and recording equipment, and those who pay attention to sound quality as audience members.

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: Leadfingers
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:40 PM

Aside from the Studio / Acoustic aspects , can I be pencilled in for a possible Concert next time I get over the pond ?

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: maeve
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:46 PM

Considering even the owners are penciled in for residency sometime in the seemingly distant future, and considering you're a friend, it seems possible, Terry. We're nowhere near there for now.

Come on; What would make a home space with good acoustics a pleasure to sing/play in?

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 10:00 PM

Home studio and home performance have very different acoustic requirements. When we built our basement addition, we did a good job of sound proofing - carpet, acoustic tile on the ceiling, insulation in the inside walls and ceiling. As a result, I'm able to use one of the rooms for a home studio. It is not, however, a good space for live performance - the sound gets dampened too much. By the same token, the living room is great for live performance, but not a good space to make reliable recordings. In recording, you can always add reverb, but you can't take it away. (Of course, you've already said it's not too echoey, which seems a good sign.) Keep in mind also that for recording you'll need to temporarily unplug the fridge and turn off anything else that makes a lot of noise.

I have no idea what effect a yurt style vaulted ceiling will have on the acoustics. You sound like you have a pretty good handle on that already. If you find things getting muddy, you can always try making a removable board or suspending a quilt across the rafters.

All of this is said with the caveat that I have no idea what I'm talking about. And even if I did, I think anybody would have to go to your house and experience it in person.

Have you thought about talking to Bruce Boege at Limin Music? He has a good understanding of acoustics, and knows how to make big open spaces work in recordings - and probably live performance too.

This is exciting!

Dan

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 10:19 PM

Whether you have the performers against the flat wall or directly opposite, in the middle of the curved wall may affect the sound - but I'm not an expert.

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: maeve
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 10:28 PM

Thank you, Dan and Foolstroupe.

Dan- It sounds like we're on the right track; resonant open space, soundproofing recording space. Good. We're already hoping to get Bruce's take on our plans when he has time to visit. I've enjoyed working with him before.

Foolstroupe- Thanks for that thought- we'll have to experiment with performer placement. I'm really looking forward to singing there with the folk chorus I belong to. Certainly the sound below the skylight is different from that just a few feet away.

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: open mike
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 10:31 PM

if there is any glass...it is best to buffer that with curtains or drapes. If you want to connect with the network of house concert
people to find out more about putting on concerts, they have a few web sites.
http://www.houseconcerts.com/main.php
http://www.concertsinyourhome.com/
http://www.houseconcerts.us/

good luck!

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: maeve
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 10:35 PM

Thanks, open mike. We're planning for the right drapes to cover windows as needed.

The house concert links are interesting. We'll only be opening our home to friends. Thanks for your good wishes.

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 07:51 AM

I have been in a few pubs with wide old oak floor boards and the acoustic was gorgeous, especially thumping feet or walking stick against them.

Barry Finn at SINSULL's house O Dollar Mamie

Cost a fortune now unless you do it yourself and are permitted to demolish a barn and take away the wood - old barn oak stripped and sealed and made into flooring.

I know dreaming again.

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: maeve
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 08:28 AM

Dreaming is good, Tamara. Right now the whole floor is a drum.

Thanks for posting the Barry Finn video. He is much missed!

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: SINSULL
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 09:49 AM

Now I'm in trouble. Barry just blasted the entire office awake - upper and lower levels. heh heh

Not sure why but performers like the acoustics at my house. Maybe it's the wood floors.
SINS

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 10:27 AM

Maeve-

I'd also suggest hanging some big basket chairs from the rafters so the performers can sing as they sway to and fro!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: olddude
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 10:42 AM

I think the big thing for the limited knowledge I have is bounce. I know I had my mikes and my guitar facing a wood door on my closet when I was recording. After talking with Will, I put a mattress against the door and my sound recording go a whole lot better. I think just watching where you setup in the room will make a heck of a lot of difference. Don't bounce the sound off a door or window. I like the big curtain idea also.

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: maeve
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 10:52 AM

Here's a link to one kind of soundproofing and fire resistant insulation we may consider for the interior walls.
Cotton insulation batting

LOL Charley. Maybe next time!

Thanks, Dan.

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: ClaireBear
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 03:23 PM

Maeve, my husband is a retired electrical engineer whose great love is audio, and room acoustics is (are?) one of his favorite subjects. I'll put him onto this, but it will be a few days before I can get him to tell me his musings so I can post them. I have discussed other aspects of your building project with him, so I know he will be interested.

You're not in a hurry, are you?

C

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 03:31 PM

Seems people like wood floors for music as well as other stuff..time is on your side..do you have trees you can cut down for flooring to be sawed and planed? It would not probably have to be very valuable trees..or are there, like someone mentioned, old sheds etc. that could be torn down for wood? mg

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: maeve
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 03:47 PM

Claire- As you have time. Feel free to send PMs as needed, too.

Thanks, Mary. You always have sensible ideas. No sheds to be torn down, no. Probably won't be getting flooring from our trees for the time being.

We can live with the plywood forever, if need be; we'd prefer to install something better before the arrival of forever. If we paint it we risk interference with eventual adhesives, if needed for later flooring. The obvious challenge, of course, is that the open area at least would be best served to have all the same kind of flooring. That's a lot.

Here's a practical approach to dirt control: Cocoa-Mat-and-Flexgrate

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: Beer
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 04:24 PM

Here is a thought. Instead of looking at the acoustics and different angles of walls etc., how about you find a good reliable store that sells the BOSS Systems. They claim to be able to do just about everything. I have heard several of their products and they are truly amazing. But then again it may not be the solution or it could be a very simple one that would work.
Ad.

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: maeve
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 04:37 PM

Hi, Adrien. Bose is a reputable company and we do like many of their products. Unfortunately, they insist on charging for them. :) My husband is gifted at finding and repairing good sound equipment, and I trust that he'll put together the sound system we need. Thanks for the recommendation!

We'll eventually need some equipment, of course. For now we'll explore the natural acoustics and build with quality of sound in mind.

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: peregrina
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 05:47 PM

At the end of the

Hooky Mat Records

page on Anthony Robb's site there's an interesting paragraph about the essential role of strategically placed 'hooky mats' (traditional home-made hooked rugs) in making home recordings of traditional musicians from the North East of England.
Not high tech; still, the wonderful CD of Jimmy Little shows it works.

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 07:08 PM

Maeve, I really wish I could be of help. However, my knowledge of acoustics ranks right up there with my knowledge of open heart surgery. Sorry.

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: maeve
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 07:34 PM

Guest, 999- Bragging again? :)

I don't have much scientific knowledge of room acoustics either, Bruce. I do know that we love the responsiveness of the yurt as it stands, and it will be interesting to hear how it changes with each improvement. The discussion can be helpful, whether we can use every idea or not.

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: maeve
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 07:44 PM

peregrina -I love the idea of the Hooky Rugs. We used to have some, and last February, I started finishing an older hooked rug begun years ago by someone else. Perhaps it will be helpful in the recording room. Thank you!

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: maeve
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 07:44 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 01:12 AM

Hooky Rugs - have you seen the 'coral rugs'?

coral rug

Great texture and should disperse sound well - may be expensive though.

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: peregrina
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 05:28 AM

well, it's a bit of a drift from acoustics, but not entirely irrelevant if mats are part of acoustics:
A nice account of making hooky and proggy mats in Northumbria and County Durham (UK)...
here --with lots about the traditional customs associated with making and using them... And here, some examples... seems the craft developed in England and America around the same time, but is practiced almost worldwide:here

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 04:47 PM

Those are fascinating, peregrina, thanks!

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: maeve
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 07:41 PM

Coral rugs and hooky and proggy mats...such interesting links! Thank you both.

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 08:41 PM

My mum and dad (Australia) started a hooky rug in the 1940s - they finished in the late 50s/early 60s ... Of course I was born in between, might have been a distraction ...

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: maeve
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 08:50 PM

A happy distraction, I'd guess...it may have helped to absorb noisy baby sounds even in its unfinished state! Do you remember what it was made from?

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 09:59 PM

Anything that you can use that absorbs sound is good... Cloth is good... That means wall hangings with lots of wool in them, thick curtains, floor rugs, blankets... The more cloth the less bouncing of sound off hard surfaces... Hard surfaces are the enemy...

B~

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 11:14 PM

It was a hessian cloth printed with the pattern on the back - there was an open wooden box it was attached to by turns, to allow the cloth to keep stretched to punch the 'needle' thru easily.

The (patent) needle was a brass gadget with a wide section to act as a handle, with a hole down the middle to run the wool thru, and the working narrow end was on a slant, to allow easy penetration of the weave. You worked from the back.

When finished, the edges were turned and some cloth stitched over the back. The top loops were trimmed so that the top was level and all the loops were cut. the individual strands were thus only held in by friction, and the resultant strands were about an inch long.

I think the rug died sometime in the 90s.

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 08:10 AM

Just remembered a music room I once had and had found a bolt of burlap at JoAnne's fabrics for cheap and used a combination of staples and lattice stripes to wallpaper the room...

Nice acoustics as I recall... And cheap...

B~

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: DebC
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 09:57 AM

My knowledge of room acoustics is limited as well; I can only speak from my experience of singing in different rooms.

That said, acoustics for live music and for recording (I would think) would be VERY different. As a singer, I find "dead" rooms to be difficult to sing in in a live performance because I have to work my voice a lot harder. The sound does not travel in a room that has LOTS of rugs, draperies, and people.

The Acoustic Brew Coffeehouse in State College, PA uses a Wellness Center/Yoga Studio for their concerts. The place consists of lovely wood and has the BEST acoustics I have ever experienced in a venue. Just enough "live-ness" and natural reverb to boost a voice, but not too much to make the sounds clash with each other, which can happen if there is too much glass and hard surfaces.

Debra Cowan

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: Brian Peters
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 10:42 AM

I agree with Deb about different requirements for live vs recording music. Wood is generally good for singing into - carpets and curtains less so. A really dead room can wreck my voice over the course of an evening.

If it were me I certainly wouldn't be wanting to use a PA in a space like that - I scarcely ever see a PA in the kind of house concerts I've played, the whole point being an intimate concert situation.

Good luck with it, Maeve!

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: s&r
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 11:27 AM

A couple of reversible acoustic screens might be a thought. Say abot six foot square self standing, one side covered with soft cloth r foam, the other plain wood. For recording face the 'dead side to the performer, for performance the live side. Might do double duty as room dividers

Stu

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: maeve
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 12:00 PM

Thanks for all of the new ideas and discussion. Yes, live music space will be distinct from recording/listening spaces. No need for a PA, certainly, with the responsive space with which we're working. We will have sound absorbers where indicated and will look to being able to tailor the surfaces according to need. There are some clever and thoughtful points made herein.

I think it's going to be fun to try out our new home/music space once we're able to move in.

We appreciate your input, friends!

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 03:23 PM

I would think that things that were moveable, foldable, hangable, slideable etc. would be better in a smaller house than permanent fixtures..and could be hung, slid etc. to protect against certain weather features at the same time, or taken down for different sound effects, hotter weather etc. ANd I am such a fan of sheepskin for various uses...floors, beds, etc...mg

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: maeve
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 05:40 PM

Refresh...Hoping ChantyLass will comment about acoustics at the Stone Soup Coffeehouse. Perhaps others may also offer helpful comments before I let the thread sink.

And mg- Yes, we'll keep all of those options in mind, thanks!

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: DebC
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 05:50 PM

I was at Stone Soup for a concert in Dec. and I felt the sound was less than ideal. It was very difficult to understand the performer in the beginning though it did seem to get a wee bit better through the evening. I'm not sure what was going on and I am very sure the performer wasn't aware of what was coming out of the mains, only what was coming through the monitors.

In a room such as that, a PA system is essential. That room could hold at least 100 people. I'll get that contact info for you Maeve, though on second thought, my friend deals with recording acoustics, not live acoustics. But I may know someone else who can help...

Debra

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: maeve
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 06:05 PM

Thanks, Debra. I will watch for your information.

My husband has run a soundboard when he and I were associated with The Folkway Restaurant and Coffeehouse. He'll be well able to fine tune any recording we eventually do.

Sorry, ChanteyLass. I misspelled your name last time.

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: ClaireBear
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 08:11 PM

Still hope to get hubby in on this, and he's willing, but we're having septic issues right now (eew!) and he doesn't have much time for aught else. Sorry!

Claire

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: maeve
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 08:27 PM

Take care of the septic problems, Claire. You can always email me when it's convenient. No fun at all, them septic problems!

Maeve

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 11:32 PM

Debra is correct that Stone Soup is in a large room, and amplification is needed. I saw her at that concert. I don't remember who did the sound that night. That is a drawback at an all-volunteer coffeehouse. The Blackstone River Theatre in Cumberland, RI, which specializes in Celtic music, is almost all-volunteer but pays one person to do sound at all the concerts. Because SS's hall is so big, adjustments often are made after sound check when the audience takes their seats. But some of the best times there have happened when performers have come off the stage, onto the floor, leaving the microphones and amplifiers behind to encourage the audience to sing along. Most performers say they like the sound, but maybe they can judge it better when there is a split bill and they can come off the stage to hear the other performer. Also, John (the performer) had a cold that night, so that may have affected his ability to hear well enough to judge. Most performers have said they like the sound, and I want to think they meant it. Also, Bill Harley was in the audience that night (John was staying at his house), and he's a SS founder. I'm surprised he didn't say anything to a board member if he didn't like the sound--or maybe he did and I'm not aware of it.

Maeve, I watched a segment of Globe Trekker on PBS tonight. It was filmed in Mongolia, so of course there were yurts. And of course I thought of you. The reason I watched only a segment is that I had a ticket to a Metropolitan Opera rebroadcast at a cineplex near my home. Luckily the snow here in RI let up long enough for me to go and return without driving problems, but I understand more snow is going to fall in an hour or so. I hope it peters out some if it is headed your way.

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: s&r
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 05:59 AM

Seeing your birthday thread made me wonder how your various acoustic treatments worked out? Has it been as good as you hoped?

Stu

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: maeve
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 06:36 AM

Hello, Stu. We (and many musician friends) think the sound is wonderful and look forward to future musical events. The acoustics worked well for a house concert long before we even had wiring in, so that was encouraging. We are still working on the interior, so I'll be happy to post an update once that's complete. Thanks for asking!

Maeve

Subject: RE: Tech: Planning House Concert Acoustics Maeve & TL
From: s&r
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 07:08 AM

Thanks for the update: it's wonderful to hear of such a positive outcome following a devastating loss.

Love and luck

Stu