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I Hate the Sound..of 'classically trained' singers
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound... From: GUEST Date: 23 Jan 11 - 03:37 PM You're all talking bollocks, what I like is good music and the rest of it is bad music. |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound... From: MGM·Lion Date: 23 Jan 11 - 04:55 PM What Shakespeare meant in 1600 by ".... a silken dalliance..." may have had an entirely different meaning as to how it sounds in 2011. ~ Don ···· So what? I am not quite sure what point you are making here, Don. It is "silken dalliance", not "a silken dalliance". ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound... From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Jan 11 - 06:29 PM Judy Collins was trained as a pinist That's right. As a result, she's spent her whole damned life discriminating against spruces, firs and larches. Terrible woman! ;-) |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound... From: Don Firth Date: 23 Jan 11 - 06:30 PM I shouldn't get involved in this. Opera has been around for several centuries and it's still going strong. The style of singing has, of necessity, been dictated by a number of circumstances. If you're used to singing in a coffeehouse or folk club, and over the sound of an acoustic guitar or 5-string banjo, you don't really have to put that much horsepower behind your voice to be heard. But—if you have to be heard in a large theater or concert house big enough to accommodate a couple thousand people and over what amounts to a full symphony orchestra often going full tilt, along with making sure the words you're singing are understandable, you'd better have some pretty solid breath-support, make sure you using the full resonance possibilities of you voice, and enunciate crisply and clearly. Opera developed as an art form long before the invention of amplification. Anyone who wanted to sing opera had to have a big voice to begin with. Not everyone does. Bing Crosby, for example, was a baritone, as was Frank Sinatra and most of the crooners. But their voices were not big enough for opera. They had the benefit of coming on board as broadcasting was well under way, and spent their singing lives working with the benefit of electronic amplification. This made it possible for them to back off and "croon," and still be heard in large spaces such as in Las Vegas casinos. With this matter of natural vocal power to deal with, believe me, opera singers—and classical singers in general—don't have the energy and concentration left over to be "pretentious." Years of training, practice, and bloody hard work goes into becoming a classical singer, and not all those who want to be have the kind of voice necessary. Matters, for example, of just sheer size of voice. Most people don't have a big enough voice. This assumption of "pretentiousness" is a projection of persons who just don't understand what the hell is going on. And as to the kind of music one sings: George London was a great bass-baritone, great enough so that he was the first American to be invited to sing at the Wagner festival in Beyreuth, Germany, and to sing the role of Boris Godunov at the Bolshoi opera house in Moscow. One of the great singers of all time. But in an otherwise marvelous recital program, he included "Lord Randal." He made the mistake of giving it the "full operatic treatment." Gawdawful! The problem was that this was not his milieu, and he didn't understand that this sort of song requires an approach far different from the approach one would take to the death scene in Boris Godunov. Let's put the shoe on the other foot: try to imaging THIS sung by, say, Bob Dylan. Dmitri Hvorostosky is one of the finest baritones around these days. Not all operatic tenors are rotund. Some are movie star good looking. Take a gander at Mario del Monaco as the troubadour knight (Il Trovatore by Giuseppe Verdi). He has just learned that the evil Count di Luna has captured the gypsy woman he thinks is his mother and is going to burn her at the stake. A bit pissed about this, the troubadour knight is calling his soldiers TO ARMS, intending to ride out, rescue his mother, and tear di Luna a new one! Note also that he is singing over both an orchestra and chorus. And if you're under the misconception that operatic sopranos are all fat and shrill, take a look and listen to THIS young lady! The poignant aria she is singing, "Song to the Moon," is from Rusalka, an opera by Antonin Dvorak, based on a Czech folk tale about a water sprite who is in love with a mortal man and yearns to become human. It's pretty sure that Hans Christian Andersen's "The Little Mermaid" was based on this folk tale. A mind that is closed and full of stereotypes and knee-jerk reactions is a sad thing. It denies its possessor a great many wonderful things in life. Don Firth P. S. Some classical voice lessons can be of great benefit to anyone interested in singing. Learning to use good breath support and how to make the best use of your own natural resonance and sing without undue muscular tension can keep your voice healthy and enable you to sing well into old age. But it will not make you sound like an opera singer as many folkies seem to think. Believe me, there are a lot of classical voice students who wish it were that easy! |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound... From: Don Firth Date: 23 Jan 11 - 06:44 PM Wow!! I just listened to that cut of Anna Netrebko again. In addition to being gorgeous, she has a singing voice like rich cream! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound... From: kendall Date: 23 Jan 11 - 08:04 PM Say what you will about opera; it has been around for hundreds of years and will continue past our lifetimes. Can you picture the youth of today in say, 30 years or so, all standing around the old upright synthesizer, trying to recall three words from Twisted Sister? |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound... From: Dave MacKenzie Date: 23 Jan 11 - 08:12 PM Just finished watching 'Prosperos Books' - great film even if I normally can't stand sopranos (boy or female). |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound... From: GUEST,DonMeixner Date: 23 Jan 11 - 08:49 PM MtheGM In 1600 a Faggot was a bundle of sticks that wereburned. Today it has, to some, a much different meaning. In 1969, when I was in high school,a Dork was slang for a penis. Today it is any clueless, nerdy, doof. A jock was an athletic supporter and not the athlete. So what was a silken dalliance? Words and their meanings change with in decades why not over the centuries? D |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound... From: Haruo Date: 23 Jan 11 - 09:40 PM And Paul Robeson? |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 23 Jan 11 - 09:45 PM Yes, another attempt to generalize what can't be generalized. |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound... From: Ron Davies Date: 23 Jan 11 - 10:14 PM I sing classical music all the time, in a big group which has sung in Carnegie Hall, the Albert Hall, and the Sistine Chapel, among many other places. And I have to say I agree with the opening poster. I like opera overtures, opera choruses--and very few arias. And the main reason is the classically trained voices of the soloists--especially the vibrato. The interesting thing is that my conductor seems to agree with me on this--he is forever telling us to focus and produce only a straight tone--with very few exceptions, one being parts of Carmina Burana, when he wants an "earthy" tone from the altos--and sometimes from the sopranos. Reason for his wanting a straight tone: he wants to be able to add "color" as he sees fit. Also, vibrato--aside from natural vibrato--can make it seem that you are not hitting the exact note immediately. I have a friend who was recently let go from the group--even though he is a true tenor, and I always thought real tenors in choral groups could write their own tickets, and were invulnerable to the concerns of the rest of us. But we have re-auditions every year, and he has a wide vibrato, though he is only about 50. My theory is that that's the reason he is no longer in the group--which is like an extended family--and nobody wants to leave voluntarily--both because of the music and the camaraderie. |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound... From: MGM·Lion Date: 23 Jan 11 - 11:25 PM Don ~ "So what was a silken dalliance?" Again, it was not A silken dalliance, but just "silken dalliance". Read my post about it again. If you still don't get it, forget it. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound... From: MGM·Lion Date: 23 Jan 11 - 11:46 PM ... just to clarify, Don: I was not asking its meaning, or commenting on its meaning (I know perfectly well what it meant - & still means, for all your non-point about the mutability of language of which I am quite aware, thank you); but simply remarking admiringly on the amazing compression of Will's use of the phrase in this passage, and the amount of significance he contrives to cram into only six words. Geddit now? |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound... From: GUEST,Patsy Date: 24 Jan 11 - 04:10 AM I hate it when operatic singers 'cross over' to other styles of music it doesn't do their voices justice at all, a bit like putting a ballerina into a pair of hobnail boots. Although I appreciate the quality of operatic singers I don't find it at all easy on the ear apart from the odd one or two Paul Robeson, Mario Lanza or Pavarotti. I would much rather just listen to classical music. But that is just my preference. |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound... From: GUEST,kendall Date: 24 Jan 11 - 06:49 AM I would love to be able to sing like Pavarotti, and not. |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound... From: Dave MacKenzie Date: 24 Jan 11 - 06:50 AM I suspect opera singers hate it just as much when I 'cross over' to classical. |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound... From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 24 Jan 11 - 12:02 PM Patsy, Paul Robeson, who died 35 years and one day ago, was not an opera singer at all, but a lawyer and an actor famous for his Othello (Shakespeare, not Verdi!). |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound... From: DonMeixner Date: 24 Jan 11 - 12:29 PM Gosh M, what did I do to earn your wrath this morning? |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound... From: MGM·Lion Date: 24 Jan 11 - 02:03 PM Don ~~ You took it on yourself to lecture me on the changes in meanings of words over the years, a topic of which I am perfectly aware; in apparent response to my post about how compressed was the Shakespearean expression of a certain concept, whose meaning I wasn't querying anyway. To compound this, you didn't even get the quote right, even after I had set you right about it, persistently rendering it as "a silken dalliance", when the actual words are simply "silken dalliance" without any preceding "a". Do you really not think this was just an itty-bitty officious and uncomprehending of you, & liable to divert readers of my post from the point I was actually making? Regards ~Michael~ |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound... From: GUEST,DWR Date: 24 Jan 11 - 02:57 PM Time to play nice again, fellas? I really have been enjoying reading this thread and the different opinions. I'd hate to have to leave it if it is going to degenerate into name calling and unpleasant comments. I love John McCormack, no matter what he does and have bought most of what is avalable. I like some other male operatic singers, but they are a minority of the whole. I dislike virtually all female singers of the genre. Some few are tolerable. A couple that I find enjoyable,both from the long, long ago are Ernestine Schumann-Heink and Florence Easton. I would apologize to my 7th and 8th grade teacher for not liking Madame Ernestine back then if I could. Rhiannon Giddens is a class unto herself. Unique is an overused word; she wears it like it was made for her. I have yet to sample the examples in this thread, but I will. Shakespeare? Mostly tolerant, sometimes enjoyed. Dale |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound... From: DonMeixner Date: 24 Jan 11 - 03:20 PM Michael I have gone back and re read this entire passage of threads to try and understand this better. What I see is a typographical error by me. The mislocation of a few quotation marks. And a misquotation. I am sorry if you read this as a lecture from me. I wasn't trying to lecture anybody. Lord knows that I don't have the complete knowledge it would take on this subject. My knowledge of Shakespeare is that of an evening reader. For pleasure, not for study. I wasn't trying to divert anybody from anything. Your observations and your opinions are certainly well stated for all to read. Nor was I trying to diminish you in the the eys of any other readers of this forum. But apparently I worded my comments in a way that you found offensive and for that I appologize. It was never my intent to be officious or make you look foolish in anyway. Don |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound... From: GUEST,DWR Date: 24 Jan 11 - 03:21 PM Please disregard my first paragraph. Usually, I write my crabby comments, then delete them. Today I did not. I am sorry if it looks as though I may be adding my unrequested fuel to someone else's fire. This is one of those times that we do need an edit button. I do know how to spell available, too. Sometimes my fingers do not type what my mind knows to be correct. |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound... From: gnu Date: 24 Jan 11 - 03:33 PM Kendall... two belly laughs in one thread! Thanks! Hahahahahaaa. Pavarotti... the ex used to have the headphones on, volume cranked up, and listen to him while vacuuming... and SING! Drove me nuts. I asked her not to do it. She did anyway. So, one day I unplugged the vacuum. She was so wrapped up in the loud music she didn't know it was off and vacuumed away. And that's when the fight started. |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound... From: MGM·Lion Date: 24 Jan 11 - 04:01 PM Many thanks, Don. Good place to let the matter rest? Best ~Michael~ |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound... From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler Date: 25 Jan 11 - 07:53 AM I find on occasions that I am unable to determine what note operatic style singers are actualy trying to hit! It is a rare thing to be able to make out the words even when they are in a language that I can recognise. On the other hand I'm afraid that I must commit heresy and say that I don't care for Shirley Collin's singing voice either. |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound... From: GUEST,Patsy Date: 25 Jan 11 - 08:30 AM I think I am confusing Operetta - Paul Robeson, Howard Keel, Katherine Grayson etc. with Opera - Pavarotti, Domingo, Catherine Jenkins etc. but to me it still sounds like the kind of thing my parents would listen to on a Sunday morning not that there is anything wrong with that if that is what they like. Perhaps it is a generation thing. |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound... From: Will Fly Date: 25 Jan 11 - 08:57 AM Perhaps it is a generation thing. Or perhaps not. I'm 66 and have spent 40+ years playing all sorts of music from Music Hall to Funk - with everything in between. Why should age be an indicator? My father was mad for Glenn Miller's music, as were many of his generation, and I grew up with it as constant background music. I can virtually whistle every one of Miller's hits, from "American Patrol" to "Moonlight Serenade"! Patsy - try a little experiment: find yourself a copy of Pavarotti singing "Panis Angelicus" - you can get it on Spotify as a solo version - and sit down with a cup of whatever you like, relax - and just let the sound waft over you. You may still dislike it, or not be interested in it after the listening - but you might actually find something you like in it. You never know. |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound... From: GUEST,Zoe Bremer Date: 25 Jan 11 - 01:42 PM What I hate is when so called "classically trained" singers sing in French but get the accent completely wrong, usually by using the modern French "r" which was unknown in France before the late 18th Century (it was imported from Germany). |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound... From: Ron Davies Date: 26 Jan 11 - 08:38 PM "Bing Crosby was a baritone". Exactly, and as the biography of him that I'm reading now notes, with the new recording technology--especially the mike--the era of tenor domination of popular music ended and the age of baritones began. Admittedly the author has very little use for tenors, it appears--even Jolson gets grudging praise, and he quotes, approvingly, it seems, descriptions of people like Rudy Vallee as "whining a degenerate song, which is unworthy of any American man." His own description of Vallee's music: "He believed he possessed rare insight regarding his generation's musical tastes, which he construed as a desire for rah-rah Ivy League songs, adapted European ballads, and mildly risque novelties about stupid or easy girls." It's a very lively biography. |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound..of 'classically trained' singers From: Janie Date: 26 Jan 11 - 10:13 PM Rhiannon Giddens, of the Carolina Chocolate Drops is classically trained. Ain't hurt her folk singin' one bit Nope (wait for it, wait, wait) Not one little bit! |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound..of 'classically trained' singers From: wysiwyg Date: 26 Jan 11 - 11:14 PM Some Catters I know who were classically trained do not sound hateful at all-- quite natural with rich, expressive, natural-sounding voices and, perhaps, now that I think about their CDs-- a finer touch on phrasing than some others. The training is not the sound-- the training is just the tools, and then what you do with the tools is up to you. Had a bit of training myself once upon a time, I did. But I KNOW I do not SOUND like it. Not for any other reason than that I gave up singing the classical music that can NOT be done otherwise. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound..of 'classically trained' singers From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 27 Jan 11 - 02:22 AM "There's nothing wrong with hitting the notes spot on, clear diction, wide vocal range, and some of the other things one may get from classical training." Yep, and you don't hear whiny, nasally, breathy sounds either, with no breath control, and the inability to be heard with out a mic. Projection they have in spades, and they have learned to open their vocal tracts and sing from the diaphragm. A breathy weak voice can be very alluring live in a small room, but I think the recording industry is using such a sound merely to sell 'sex'... amping the hell outof it does no real justice to it, anymore than taking a powerful voice and trying to 'wind it back' - like driving a Ferrari to the corner store... |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound..of 'classically trained' singers From: GUEST,Ross in Toronto Date: 27 Jan 11 - 02:49 AM When I think of crossover, I think of Freddy Mercury singing operatic stuff with Montserrat Caballe. Lovely. But Freddy had a natural aptitude that most rock stars just don't. I sing in a folk chorus in Toronto with a classically trained conductor ... and I have to say that we cannot produce the folk sound we aim for *as a chorus* without the vocal training we get in rehearsal from Isabel Bernaus. If we do not all produce the same vowel in the same manner at the same time with the same consonants in the same instant, and for the same duration, we can make a muddy mess of (for instance) "Shenandoah" or "My City". But there are 70-odd of us. We can't sing "My City" the same way Grit Laskin does. |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound..of 'classically trained' singers From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie Date: 27 Jan 11 - 03:27 AM When my mother in law (Northern comic gags are NOT part of this comment (for once)) first met me, my then girlfriend said I was a folk musician. Oh, she said, I have a CD of folk music. Andreas Scholl in homage to Vaughan Williams. I suggest you listen to it, and you may find yourself agreeing with the original post. I had to sit and listen to it, being nice. Trying to impress her. Eight years on and I have stopped trying as luck would have it. That said, Wagner sang literally sounds just as false. Horses for courses. |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound..of 'classically trained' singers From: GUEST,glueman Date: 27 Jan 11 - 03:34 AM Anyone introduced to folk music through official channels (school, BBC) in the 1960s would assume Peter Piers was the authentic folk voice. I used to dislike classically trained interpretations of folk but am more sympathetic now. Just been listening to Harry Christopher's 'The Sixteen'. It would be a strange soul that finds nothing moving in those sopranos. Miserere Mei |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound..of 'classically trained' singers From: Ron Davies Date: 28 Jan 11 - 07:27 AM "...those sopranos". True, but that confirms my point, not the advisability of classical voice training. What is most stunning about the sopranos is their achingly pure sound---achieved by straight tone, not vibrato. Any vibrato they have is natural--not the operatic vibrato which is the subject of the thread. This is why every note they hit is crystal clear. Many things can be learned in voice training--but the universally useful lessons can be learned by just singing many types of music in many types of groups---doing lots and lots of singing, especially a cappella, in groups, under good conductors. |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound..of 'classically trained' singers From: Lighter Date: 28 Jan 11 - 08:02 AM Tastes differ. Your results may vary. Artistic frissons not available in all areas. As others have said, it ain't the classical training, it's what you and your accompanists do with it. Nonclassical singers can be awful too. I'm thinking of the kind with expert musical skills (in theory) but who think trad has to sound like pop to mean anything. Meanwhile, they and/or their musicians, are doing the jazz riffs and the bongos, etc. Not that fusion is necessarily the kiss if death, but it *is* almost impossible to carry off. (But that's just an expression of my own taste.) It also depends on your expectations. If you like bel canto and sit down to listen to a classical setting of a folksong, you won't be disappointed. If you sit down with, say, Harry Cox or Alameda Riddle as your standard, you will be. For a somewhat less dramatic contrast, compare Jean Redpath's renditions of Burns's songs in the artsy arrangements of Serge Hovey with her less elaborate performances elsewhere. You can't much help what you like or don't like. |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound..of 'classically trained' singers From: Teribus Date: 29 Jan 11 - 03:16 AM A talk show on BBC (IIRC "Parkinson") had three singers on as guests - Rock (can't remember who); Pop (Cliff Richard); Opera (Placido Domingo). As part of the "entertainment" each attempted to sing the others "music". Domingo wiped the floor with them and did so with ease showing himself to be quite comfortable and competent in the other genres. Well said Don Firth, although I have yet to hear Bob Dylan actually sing anything. I also particulalry liked this from Foolestroupe: ".....and you don't hear whiny, nasally, breathy sounds either, with no breath control, and the inability to be heard with out a mic." "A breathy weak voice can be very alluring live in a small room, but I think the recording industry is using such a sound merely to sell 'sex'... Describes Kate Rusby to a Tee (I cannot even listen to her gasp her way through one verse let alone a complete song). |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound..of 'classically trained' singers From: Van Date: 29 Jan 11 - 03:29 AM Dave There is a little couplet that goes "I can sing like Callum Kennedy, That's one thing I've got to remedy". Handy when you're tuning up. The tune will come to you. |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound..of 'classically trained' singers From: Dave MacKenzie Date: 29 Jan 11 - 04:07 AM The tune is 'the Son of the Earl of the White Banner', commonly known as 'Bratach Bana'. The last person I remember singing it was Dolly MacLennan. |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound..of 'classically trained' singers From: GUEST,matt milton Date: 29 Jan 11 - 01:06 PM classical singing is an established, learned, code practice (and therefore ultimately arbitrary, though no less meaningful for it). In exactly the same way death metal singing, or folk singing, or throat singing, or blues guitar playing is. Classical singing sounds great in classical music. It sounds awful in folk music. I don't even like pop music type vibrato in folk music, which I why I dislike 99% of today's folk singers. |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound..of 'classically trained' singers From: Jack Campin Date: 29 Jan 11 - 05:11 PM Try this one. About as classically trained as you can get: Ruhi Su Does it sound like somebody who'd had a career singing Western opera? The song in that clip is a lament for the leadership of the Turkish Communist Party, murdered on Ataturk's orders in 1921. Ruhi Su was the leading classical opera singer in Turkey, sacked for his politics. So he went into folk music and became something like a combination of Woody Guthrie, Leonard Cohen and Bert Lloyd, while reaching greater general recognition than any of them did - a bardic figure who communicated to an entire country for a couple of generations. There's a Wikipedia page in English that gives more detail. Lots more clips on YouTube and other websites. One of the best performances I've ever heard of a Scottish song was by Rita Streich. The really big thing she'd learned as an opera singer was how to be witty and touching at the same time. She had a slight Austrian accent but so what - all the feelings were in the right place and her timing was spot-on to the millisecond. |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound..of 'classically trained' singers From: BDenz Date: 29 Jan 11 - 05:24 PM There are two paths for singers. One can be trained "classically" and still choose the lyrical (less opera-y) path. The point of operatic/art song voices is the vibrato and that's not the point of lyric voices. The difference is the ability to "blend" with other voices. The more vibrato is involved, the more difficult it is to blend. I don't know about you guys, but I used to do the local "everybody gets together and sings Handel's Messiah" events that happened around Christmas each year. I'm trained, but chose the lyrical path specifically because I want to be able to harmonize and blend, not stand out. It's a mish-mash in those "everybody sings" events and inevitably the over-vibratoed operay voices ruin the pitch of the group. It's a taste thing, but it's also a "what kind of music is being sung" thing. |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound..of 'classically trained' singers From: GUEST,glueman Date: 29 Jan 11 - 06:51 PM On the subject of not standing out, one of the things that cracked me up as a kid was hearing someone in a church congregation trying to sing 'properly'. Apart from the choir who have some kind of conductor, a hymn is almost impossible to sing well when surrounded by people murmuring it out of tune. Any attempt to do so results in comedy. A bad church soprano is the quickest route to eating your own fist. |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound..of 'classically trained' singers From: Don Firth Date: 29 Jan 11 - 08:01 PM Obviously, there are a lot of misconceptions about vibrato, what it actually is, and how it comes about in a singing voice. With most singers, including a number of folk singers, it just happens naturally, and it's not something one consciously sets out to learn how to do. It's just there. And it is perfectly normal. Actually, vibrato—in any kind of singing—is not something most people even notice. Unless (like some people posting on this thread) they are intentionally looking for it as if it were a symptom of some dread disease or something. It's not. It's generally a sign of natural, healthy voice production. Contrary to what appears to be popular belief, competent classical voice teachers rarely even address the matter of vibrato. Unless there is too much of it and it is wide enough to obscure the basic pitches of the notes being sung ("vocal wobble"). Nor do they try to instill vibrato into a voice. Been there. Years of voice lessons from two different classical voice teachers: one, a former soprano at the Metropolitan Opera who also sang on the radio back in the 1940s, and the other an operatic baritone who became a teacher and choir director when he retired from the opera and concert stage. I don't even know if my voice has vibrato. I've never really noticed and no one has ever commented on it. I just open my yap and sing. I can rear back and bellow it out like an opera singer (bass), but because of the material I chose to sing (folk songs and ballads—traditional), I chose not to. Vibrato? I presume I have some. Most normal singing voices do. Naturally. Read the following: Understanding Vibrato, by David L. Jones. Along with information on why vibrato happens naturally in a normal, healthy voice, it also examines when vibrato goes wrong, such as the "vocal wobble" and the "overly-fast vibrato." It also explains why choir directors who insist on a "straight tone" could be putting their singers at risk. Read especially section (3), entitled The Straight Tone. Here's an excerpt from an article on singing: A true vibrato is a small fluctuation in pitch. The best demonstration of this is what good string players do, that is, rapidly move the left hand on the fingerboard so the pitch moves minutely up and down. On a bowed, and to a lesser extent a plucked, string instrument, this is done to lend a "warmth" to the tone that doesn't come from simply bowing the string. This is such a common practice that composers will write senza (without) vibrato on passages they don't want played that way, the implication being that the music should be played with vibrato at all other times.Some singers do overdo it, but generally not the more successful classical singers. If you want to hear some real heavy-duty vibrato, you won't find it nearly as much among opera and other classical singers as you will from many of the pop singings from the 1920s and 30s. Try expatriate American singer Josephine Baker, for example CLICK. Or Edith Piaf? Frankly, as broad as their vibrato is, I would find their voices a bit tough to take without it. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound..of 'classically trained' singers From: Fastauntie Date: 30 Jan 11 - 05:51 AM I agree with a number of posters who've pointed out that voice training alone isn't enough--you have to know what's appropriate for the music you're singing, and too many opera singers don't seem to understand that a full-on opera style doesn't work with folk music. Some few, fortunately, do get it, and they can bring something special to it. Nobody's yet mentioned Odetta as a folk singer with classical training. You can hear that if you think about it, but because she knew what to do with it, and what not to, she just sounds like a great, great folk singer. I've never been excited about opera per se, though some operas and singers I like very much. What I dislike about many opera singers' voices is a quality I don't have the proper technical vocabulary to describe. It sounds, not exactly strangled, but as if their voice is just too big for their their throat, and not all of it can get out, leaving some trapped inside the body. I find it uncomfortable to listen to whatever they're singing. Pavarotti, for example, had that quality, so my tolerance for him is very limited, but Domingo doesn't, and I could listen to him any time. (Can't say I recall hearing either of them attempt folk songs.) |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound..of 'classically trained' singers From: Old Vermin Date: 31 Jan 11 - 03:35 AM From: Will Fly - PM - Date: 23 Jan 11 - 05:12 AM "I'm always rather wary of blanket pronouncements ... "I dislike all Volvos", etc. Such pronouncements seem a little simplistic, on the whole, " One person's simplistic is another's pragmatic? There's material for a BS thread on the attributes of drivers of particular makes of car - locally the more 'sporting' Audi seems to have supplanted the BMW as the car of choice for the aggressive moneyed sociopath. As for classical training - was decades ago told to lose the "dreadful folk habit" of trying to make the words matter... and crossly told to relax ... Adult Education tutor employed by the Local Authority. |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound..of 'classically trained' singers From: Don Firth Date: 31 Jan 11 - 02:30 PM Old Vermin, I most definitely agree with what you said. But—about classical training, if I understand you correctly. . . . I have never—ever—had one of my voice teachers tell me that the words don't matter. In fact, Mrs. Bianchi used to emphasis clear, crisp enunciation, "especially for the ballads you want to sing." "They're stories," she went on to say, "and it's especially important that your listeners understand what you're singing." George Street had me bring my guitar to the lessons. After we had spent some time on exercises and vocal technique, he would have me sing whatever song I happened to be learning and working on at the time. He would often stop me in mid-song and ask me, "What does that line mean?" He knew perfectly well, but he wanted to be sure that I knew, and was not singing it merely by rote. And I have run into more than one singer of folk songs who, when pinned down, didn't know what the hell he or she was singing about! I would often hear voice students at the University of Washington School of Music and the Cornish College of the Arts practicing enunciation exercises. The Cornish voice teachers used to pass out a small booklet of enunciation exercises to their pupils. Although I was taking from an outside teacher at the time (Mr. Street), I managed to score a copy of it. And still use it. No, whether it is a border ballad or an operatic aria, the words are important. Don Firth P. S. The management of Seattle Opera considers the words sufficiently important that when the opera being presented is in Italian, French, German, or whatever, they project "supratitles" (like thesubtitles in a foreign movie) on a horizontal panel just below the proscenium above the stage. This, in addition to printing a synopsis of the plot in the program. I understand that this has become standard practice in opera houses all over the country. |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound..of 'classically trained' singers From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 31 Jan 11 - 04:28 PM Good teachers will tell you that words do matter, as pronounced and interpreted by the singer. Opera audiences have acquired a feeling for the languages being sung, even if they don't know the meaning of every word and are thus grateful for the "supratitles" as well. Old Vermin, perhaps your teacher told you to pronounce the vowels in a way that they do not differ from each other more than necessary. This makes for a more consistent sound, so that the melody is presented as a unit, as if from an instrument. For the same reason, teachers will tell you to blend the registers of your voice. Both ideals apply to opera, lied, and (European) folk song alike, with the exception of yodelling. The best folk singers follow them without anyone noticing. Both Pavarotti and Domingo, by the way, interpreted the folklore of their countries in perfect taste. In other cultural contexts they were not quite as successful, artistically. |
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Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound..of 'classically trained' singers From: RTim Date: 31 Jan 11 - 04:40 PM When Caruso went to his first voice teacher he said: "Who sent you to me God?" When I went to my first voice teacher he said: "God, who sent you to me?!?!?!?!" Tim Radford |
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