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Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings
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Subject: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Bob_Walser Date: 04 Feb 11 - 11:05 AM I'm wondering what the earliest commercial shanty recordings were. My guess would be soloist (probably tenor or bass) with orchestra, chorus or piano. The first one I know about is Columbia 4689, a 78, featuring Raymond Newell and Chorus singing "Johnny Come Down to Hilo", "The Hog's Eye Man" and "We're All Bound to Go" (a copy of which I saw when visiting Chris Roche - thanks, Chris). Any earlier ones? Contemporary? Thoughts? |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: GUEST,Gary Keep Date: 04 Feb 11 - 10:27 PM Interesting topic Bob. I'm looking forward to seeing what pops up here. The earliest I've heard are in the early 30s movie Mystery of the Mary Celeste. There very authentic. Gary |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Gibb Sahib Date: 04 Feb 11 - 10:51 PM It would also be interesting to note, concurrently, what these recordings used for their sources. By guess is that most stuck to the letter of some written text, e.g. Davis & Tozer's collection of Benjamin Britten's compositions (based in his songs collected and published in JEFDS). |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Lighter Date: 07 Feb 11 - 07:59 AM According to James Revell Carr in the Journal of American Folklore (Spring, 2009, p. 201), "The first commercial recordings of sea music came out in the 1940s, including a collection released in 1941 by the Almanac Singers [which included Woody Guthrie and Pete Seeger]. Stanley Slade's shanty recordings for the BBC were also made in the '40s. Carr's apparently well-informed statement may not turn out to be definitive, but it seems to be the best anyone can do at the moment. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Gibb Sahib Date: 07 Feb 11 - 03:43 PM Are films (as Gary mentioned) included under "commercial recordings"? There are these examples from The Phantom Ship, 1935 When was this "Raymond Newell and Chorus", Bob? You ask us for earlier, but don't say when this was! |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Gibb Sahib Date: 07 Feb 11 - 03:47 PM BTW, the above montage I made is from the same film mentioned by Gary Keep. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Desert Dancer Date: 07 Feb 11 - 03:58 PM The Musical Times, April 1, 1928 Gramophone Notes by "Discus" http://www.jstor.org/stable/916282?seq=3 Raymond Newell and chorus make a rousing thing of 'Johnny come down to Hilo"--one of the best shanty records I have heard, with capital voices, words, clear, and any amount of 'go.' 'We're all bound to go' pleases me less, because monotony creeps in. A little variation of power--stopping well on the side of fussiness--would have made all the difference (4689). (emphasis mine.) ~ Becky in Long Beach |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Desert Dancer Date: 07 Feb 11 - 04:05 PM Also, in Gramophone, March 1928, p. 22: http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/March%201928/22/806739/ Columbia Raymond Newell and Chorus, with piano : Sea Shanties.— We're all bound to go, Johnny come down to Hilo and The Hog's Eye Man, from The Shanty Book, ed. Sir R. Terry. 4689 (10in., 3s.). Raymond Newell and Chorus, only two months ago on the Regal list, are here for Columbia. If I had to choose one out of all the Sea Shanty records it would not be this ; but it is beyond question a good one. (emph. still mine) Digitization is amazing, innit? ~ Becky in Long Beach |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Desert Dancer Date: 07 Feb 11 - 04:10 PM And while we're at it, here's Richard Runciman Terry's "The Shanty Book" at Project Gutenberg and Google Books. ~ B in LB |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Desert Dancer Date: 07 Feb 11 - 04:24 PM I would think that mining these early reviews in Gramophone and Musical Times might turn up the goods for you. Here's an interesting article that's not a review, but about performing shanties, that came up when I Googled on "gramophone sea shanties": FOLK-SONGS OF THE SEA, Shanties on the Gramophone By LLEWELYN C. LLOYD -- Gramophone March 1927. It suffers a bit from OCR errors... I think I'll copy and post this to a separate thread. O.k., getting earlier: in the August 1926 issue, under "Gramophone Societies' Reports" -- THE BIRMINGHAM GRAMOPHONE SOCIETY.--Tuesday, June 29th, at Ebenezer Chapel board room, Steelhouse Lane. The programme was entirely devoted to records sent by the Parlophone, Vocalion, and Pathh companies. ... A set of two ten-inch Parlophone records of Kenneth Ellis and chorus in several of the sea shanties now so highly popular, were much appreciated... http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/August%201926/33/793222/Gramophone+Societies+Reports ~ Becky in Long Beach |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 07 Feb 11 - 04:24 PM Shenandoah-,1903, Minster Singers; and 1917, Campbell and Burr. A-Roving- Richard Maitland, 1939. Paddy Doyle- Richard Maitland, 1939. Blow the Man Down- Minster Singers, c. 1903 Rio Grande- Minster Singers, c. 1903. Victor 61148 |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Desert Dancer Date: 07 Feb 11 - 04:42 PM Llewelyn Lloyd recommends these recordings after his article (linked above): His Master's Voice, B.1999 : John Goss and the Cathedral Singers, Rio Grande, Billy Boy, and Shenandoah. Vocalion X.9787 : John Buckley and chorus, Shenandoah, Johnny come down to Hilo, A long time ago, and Fire down below. Edison Bell V.F.1164 : Robert Carr and the Seafarers, The Drunken Sailor and Whisky Johnny. Parlophone E.5584: Kenneth Ellis and chorus, The Drunken Sailor, Santy Anna, and Lowlands Away. Aco G.15870 : John Thorne and male trio, The Shantyman's Song, Can't you dance the polka ? The Drunken Sailor, and Johnny come down to Hilo. ~ B in LB |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Desert Dancer Date: 07 Feb 11 - 04:48 PM In trying to correct an OCR error on the John Goss item above, I located this: Gramophone July 1925 http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/July%201925/40/800942/ B.1999.—Shenandoah with (a) Rio Grande and (b) Billy Boy. Sea shanties arranged by R. R. Terry. B.2016.—(a) Hey Ho, to the Greenwood (William Byrd), (b) Lillibulero (Old English song), with Aye Waukm'Oh (Scottish song), arranged W. Augustus Barrett. B.2017.—(a) 0 good ale, thou art my darling (Old English song), arranged Peter Warlock ; (b) Sinner, please doan let this harves' pass (Negro Spiritual), arranged H. T. Burleigh, with 0 sweet fa's the eve (Norwegian folk tune), arranged E. J. Moeran. B.2018.—(a) And when I die ; (b) The last long mile (Army marching songs), arranged Hubert J. Foss, with (a) Can't you dance the polka? (sea shanty), arranged E. J. Moeran; (b) A-Roving (sea shanty), arranged Cecil J. Sharp. Those who have followed the steady rise of John Goss to the front rank of singers of artistic merit, incapable of singing anything they do not believe in for commercial gain, will welcome his appearance on this special H.M.V. supplement. They and others, to whom his name is unfamiliar, will doubtless hail with joy a delightful selection of songs culled from that whimsical production of the Nonesuch Press, the "Week-End" book. I urge you to purchase a copy at once ; you will not regret it. In the book will he found, amongst many delights, the words and music of all the songs sung on these records, so that you and your friends can, if so minded, join in the choruses with complete abandon during your brief week-ends. Sea-shanties -- What music in the very word; what regrets that the passing of the sailing ship sounded the death-knell of these true sailor-songs. Nothing can rob us of these immortal tunes and words or the memories imagination, feeding on the sea stories of Herman Melvill and his companions, may conjure up. As Sir Richard Terry points out in his introduction to the Shanty Book (Part I) (Curwen), the sailors of the Merchant Service never sang the shanties as a recreation, but only at labour. In common with so many folk songs these were devised to help men at their work, and "a good shanty-man with a pretty wit was worth his weight in gold. He was a privileged person, and was excused all work save light or odd jobs." I was showing a sailor a publication called "The Sea, its History and Romance" the other day. "Damned little romance " was his comment Only he didn't say "damned"! The romance indeed of these songs, their Rabelaisian words carefully doctored, is more apparent to us landlubbers safe in our warm houses than to these hard-bitten seamen. Well, let us abandon ourselves to it as we listen to one of the most famous of shanties, Shenandoah, a tone as lovely in its way as the Londonderry Air, full of the wind and waves. The rollicking Rio Grande will sweep everyone off his feet. Billy boy is really a landsman's song that has found its way on board ship, being altered in the process (see Vaughan Williams' My boy Billie). Can't you dance the Polka with its American flavour and A-Roving complete a series that does the ear good to hear and warms the cockles of the heart. Just think of one of the modern-day shopballads beside this salty stuff! An atmosphere of the tavern breathes out of Hey ho, to the Greenwood, a canon for three voices by Byrd. Dean Inge should play it at breakfast every morning; a sovereign cure for his odd views about the " Middle Ages." An interesting history attaches to the song on the reverse, Lillibulero, part of which I will quote from the bulletin. " It contributed not a little to the great revolution of 1688 ; elsewhere it is referred to as the song which sung a deluded prince (James II.) out of three kingdoms." It seems, however, very doubtful that Purcell was the composer of the tune as stated in the bulletin Grove has a long article on the subject. And when I die will be of more than ordinary interest tosoldiers, many of whom it will carry back, as only a tune or a scent can in the evocation of memories, to the Great War. It is precisely the kind of improvised thing that becomes a "folk song" and in years to come the antiquarian will be excited to find that our soldiers invented, after a considerable lapse of such creative effort, well-contrived song in two parts, irnitational in nature. What wagging of heads there will be! Here are the pathetic words And when I die, don't bury me at all, Just pickle my bones in alcohol; Put a bottle of booze at my head and feet, And then I know my bones will keep. I have only space to draw brief attention to the remaining songs, of which the delicately beautiful setting by Mr. Moeran of o sweet fa's the eve and the Scottish labour song Aye waukin' oh deserve special notice. The labour has no connection with the Clyde or Mr. Wheatley's activities, for " Waulkin' songs of various types are used (in the Hebrides) in the course of shrinking one and the same web of cloth. Beginning with a moderately slow tempo they become ever more fast and furious. When the shrinking process is complete, the web is rolled up and clapped to a lively song." This impression is not conveyed by Barrett's arrangement of such an air, used here. Mr. Goss, with a male quartet drawn, I believe, from Westminster Cathedral Choir, performs his very varied task in a wholly admirable manner, with unflagging zest and artistry. His voice, as I had suspected, records very well, but it is his sense of rhythm and phrasing, in a word his musicianship, which distinguishes these delightful discs. Musicianly, too, is the adjective for the part played by the male quartet and the accompanist. N. P. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Lighter Date: 07 Feb 11 - 05:04 PM Gibb: Priceless, including Bela Lugosi and the guy who plays the melodeon without moving his fingers. I can't imagine anybody considering movie music a "commercial recording" until the days (in the '50s, I believe) when soundtracks of movie musicals began appearing on discs. The texts and tunes in the movie are a little unusual. It would still have been possible, in 1935, for a retired shantyman to have turned up among British actors in a sea epic, but I think it's at least as likely that somebody in an office looked in shanty book and did some rewriting to avert any copyright issues. Desert Dancer & Q: Outstanding discoveries. Valuable and obviously still obscure information! |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Desert Dancer Date: 07 Feb 11 - 05:08 PM Or maybe here, after all... Gramophone, March 1927 http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/March%201927/37/809151/ FOLK-SONGS OF THE SEA Shanties on the Gramophone By LLEWELYN C. LLOYD AMONG the idiosyncrasies of recording companies perhaps the most prominent is their fondness for the game of "Follow my leader." All good gramophonists study the catalogues (and THE GRAMOPHONE), and they must have noticed that when, say, in May, Company A, with a great flourish of trumpets and beating of drums, brings out a set of records of somebody's umpteenth symphony in June or July Company B hastens, with if possible even greater éclat, to issue another recording of the same work. This, I suppose, is all part of the competitive game, but when one thinks of all the 'fine music which is left unrecorded, it leads to tearing of the hair. Lately, sea-shanties have been coming from all the companies, and. everybody is playing them and singing them when probably a few months ago they had never heard one of these folk-songs of the sea. One does not object to the plentiful issue of these songs, however, for they have delightful tunes, and tunes are badly needed in this tuneless age. But this popularity of the sea-shanty has its attendant dangers. The chief is that it should be taken up in "arty" circles and turned into something highbrow and "precious" that would be a first-rate disaster. The shanty is too fine and too healthy a thing to be sung by out-size tenors for the delectation of sentimental flappers, or to be used as a medium for the display of their voices by "celebrity" prime donne. The shanty is altogether too jolly and too hearty a thing to become the property of any cult. Let it be sung in the streets, in the morning bath, and at convivial gatherings when it is desired to let off steam; but let it be kept away from the recital and the highbrow salon. In playing over sea-shanties for my friends I have found that most of them have only the vaguest idea of what they really are, so it may be worth while to say something about them. They date from the old sailing-ship days, when there were tasks to be done—such as hauling up the anchor and reefing sails—which called for the monotonous repetition of a few movements by gangs of men. Unanimity of movement was essential, and it was soon found that a song was the best method of securing this, a haul on the rope or a turn of the capstan synchronising with the strong beat in the rhythm of the song. One sailor (the shantyman), selected for his ability to improvise words to suit known tunes, acted as soloist, standing aloof from the toil, while the others joined in the chorus as they worked. Anything would serve as a shanty, provided that it had, a well-marked rhythm and a chorus, and we find job-songs from the countryside, negro tunes from the cotton-fields of America, and genuine sailors' tunes, all classed together as shanties. The words rarely form any connected story, the shantyman improvising to the best of his ability as he went along, and (it must be confessed) the words of the verses were not always meet for the delicate ear. The choruses, however, which could be heard at a much greater distance than the verses, were almost invariably quite innocuous. There was a much greater variety of words than of tunes. Nearly every shantyman had his own version of the words, but, the tunes varied to only a limited extent. A few tunes—such as "Shenandoah" and "Billy Boy"—were universally known, and the variants of text were consequently numerous. Some tunes, such as "The Drunken Sailor," "Haul away, Joe," and "The hog's-eye man," are modal, and this gives them a peculiar strength and vitality. Such was the shanty. Now let us see how it has been treated for the gramophone. To my knowledge shanties have been recorded by five British companies—H.M.V. [His Master's Voice], Vocalion, Parlophone, Edison Bell, and Aco. In their records of songs from the "Week-End Book" by John Goss and the Cathedral Singers, the Gramophone Company included one (B.1999) devoted to sea-shanties, and this remains one of the best shanty records. John Goss sings with delightful humour, and he is supported by an excellent male quartet. The three shanties on this record—Billy Boy, Rio Grande, and Shenandoah—are probably the three best-known, and all are well worth knowing. Shenandoah has one of the most beautiful melodies in all music. Since this record appeared I believe that H.M.V. have issued some further shanty records, by Harry Dearth, but these I do not know. Vocalion have economised space by getting eight shanties on two ten-inch records, but one result of this arrangement is that only a couple of verses of each can be given; on the other hand, there is the obvious advantage which will at once appeal to those to whom expense is an important consideration. The singers are John Buckley and a chorus, and apart from a rather "arty" flavour their performance is quite satisfactory. "Rio Grande" is rather spoiled by its persistent mispronunciation as "Reeo." The shanties recorded by this company are: Tom's gone to Hilo, Billy Boy, Rio Grande, and Blow the man down (X. 9786); and Shenandoah. Johnny come down to Hilo, A long time ago, and Fire down below (X.9787). The last two have been recorded only on this disc, and it is worth getting for them alone. Parlophone have devoted three ten-inch records to sea shanties, the singers being Kenneth Ellis and a male quartet, while the accompaniment is provided by a string quartet and flute, which proves a pleasant change from the usual pianoforte. The singers give a good all-round performance, but their intonation is a little doubtful at times in Shenandoah, although this may be the fault of the recording. The first record (E.5583) contains Amsterdam (also known as A-roving) and Shenandoah; the second (E.5584) has The Drunken Sailor, Santy Anna and Lowlands Away (the last two fine tunes, not elsewhere recorded); and the third (E.5585) has Rio Grande, Reuben Ranzo, Blow the man down, and Johnny come down to Hilo. Robert Carr and the Seafarers, who sing shanties for the Edison Bell company, impart a welcome touch of vigour to their renderings, which is unfortunately somewhat rare in other recordings. This feature of their singing is particularly notable in What shall we do with the drunken sailor? which is paired with the amusing Whisky Johnny (V.F.1164). I count this one of the best shanty records I know. Other shanties recorded by these singers are: Billy Boy, Blow the man down, and Shenandoah (V.F.1159); and Rio Grande, and Johnny come down to Hilo, (V.F.1163). The Aco records are made by John Thorne and a male trio, who sing Haul away Joe, Rio Grande, Shenandoah, and Billy Boy (G-.15824); and The shantyman's song, Can't you dance the polka?, The Drunken Sailor, and Johnny come doun to Hilo (G.15870). Their performance is very good, although it would be still better if it were a little more vigorous, and they also mispronounce "Rio" as " Reeo." They are at their best in Can't you dance the Polka a delightful shanty not elsewhere recorded. The Aco record is also the only one of that fine modal tune, Haul away Joe, but it is accompanied by three of the best-known of all shanties, which are, I think, better sung by John Goss and the Cathedral Singers. The anonymous accompanist adds a great deal to the effectiveness of these recordings. Perhaps I may indicate what I consider are the best five records of sea-shanties, but this list is to be taken only as showing my personal preference. If you want to buy sea shanties, the best thing to do is to try them all over at your dealer's, and pick out those you like best. It is impossible to avoid duplication in such a list, but in selecting these five records I have tried to reduce it to a minimum. It will be seen that The Drunken Sailor appears three times and Shenandoah and Johnny come down to Hilo appear twice each. Here is the list His Master's Voice B.1999 : John Goss and the Cathedral Singers, Rio Grande, Billy Boy, and Shenandoah. Vocalion X.9787 : John Buckley and chorus, Shenandoah, Johnny come down to Hilo, A long time ago, and Fire down below. Edison Bell V.F.1164 : Robert Carr and the Seafarers, The Drunken Sailor and Whisky Johnny. Parlophone E.5584: Kenneth Ellis and chorus, The Drunken Sailor, Santy Anna, and Lowlands Away. Aco G.15870 : John Thorne and male trio, The Shantyman's Song, Can't you dance the polka? The Drunken Sailor, and Johnny come down to Hilo. This gives twelve different shanties, and they should be enough to give anyone a good idea of the charm of these folk-songs of the sea. ----------------- predating Mudcat by a few years, the above is from "The Forum" in Gramophone magazine: THE FORUM The following articles are unsolicited contributions from readers, dealing with this or that aspect of the gramophone to which each has given thought. A selection from the MSS. received is published every month, and prizes are offered every quarter. Articles should not exceed 1,500 words, and should be typewritten or written very legibly on one side only of the paper. They should be sent to THE GRAMOPHONE, 58, Frith Street, London, W. 1, marked "The Forum ": and a stamped and addressed envelope should be enclosed. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 07 Feb 11 - 05:24 PM From Victor Discography: Minster Singers (AKA Georgia Sea Singers; Georgia Glee Singers); a British group; may also have used the name Meister Singers. Matrix 1807e, recorded 2/20/1905; Sea Chanties no. 1: Capstan Bar. Matrix 1808e, recorded w/20/1905; Sea Chanties no. 6: Rio Grande. Matrix 6527b, recorded 1/14/1905; Sea Chanties no. 2: Blow my bully boys. Matrix 6530b, recorded 1/14/1905; Sea Chanties no. : Whiskey Johnny. http://victor.library.uscb.edu/index.php/talent/detail/6859/Minster_Singers_Vocal_group Chanty no. 7 was Blow the Man Down. date prob. 1905. Peter Dawson (i. e. Hector Grant) made recordings with the Minster Singers, one was Christmas Eve in an Australian Miners' Camp. A copy in State Library of South Australia. http://musicaustralia.org |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Desert Dancer Date: 07 Feb 11 - 05:24 PM Gramophone has the British recordings, need something similar for the U.S.. Q, where's your discography from? ~ Becky in Long Beach |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Desert Dancer Date: 07 Feb 11 - 05:25 PM (sorry, cross-posted with you, Q.) |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 07 Feb 11 - 05:53 PM Members of the Minster Singers: Peter Dawson, Ernest Pike, Wilfred Virgo and Stanley Kirkby. www.bookrags.com. "Peter Dawson sings songs of sea and Empire," original recordings from 1925-1937 on HMV discs. Songs include Outward Bound, The Old Superb, The Fleet's Not in port Very Long, etc. No chanties. Shenandoah, recorded by Henry Burr and Albert Campbell, Victor 18327 in 1917. Not done again until 1952, by Harry Belafonte, RCA Victor 47 5051, 7" 45rpm |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Desert Dancer Date: 07 Feb 11 - 05:57 PM Q's link to the Victor discography doesn't work for me, but I get the Minster Singers here: http://victor.library.ucsb.edu/index.php/talent/detail/6859/Minster_Singers_Vocal_group, which lists them as 1905, as you have above. However, from your earlier post I found your Google result which led to... "The Music Trade Review" of October 28, 1905 lists under "Records for November, 1903", "New Victor Records": Old Sea Chanties Colected by John Bradford and Arthur Fagge and sung by the Minster Singers of Londong 61145 (1) "The Capstan Bar" 61146 (2) "Blow, My Bully Boys" and (3) "Sally Brown" 61147 (4) "Whisky Johnny," and (5) "Shenandoah" 61148 (5) "Rio Grande" and (7) "Blow the Man Down" The Music Trade Review is online at http://www.arcade-museum.com/mtr/. Viewing pages on line requires a browser plugin that didn't work for me, but you can try the page here http://www.arcade-museum.com/mtr/MTR-1905-41-17/, which also has a pdf link at the bottom. The Music Trade Review, established 1879 (and digitized with support from namm.org), was "published every Saturday by Edward Lyman Bill at 1 Madison Ave., New York." |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 07 Feb 11 - 05:57 PM Several sources, easy on Google. Shenandoah- http://secondhandsongs.com/medium/15677 or look at Victor Discography. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Gibb Sahib Date: 07 Feb 11 - 06:03 PM Great work, Becky and Q! Important stuff for learning how the "general public" experienced shanties before the mid-century Revival brought about a still newer impression of the genre. Keep it up! I am fascinated by the moment when shanties started becoming conceptualized or grouped in with "folk songs." |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Gibb Sahib Date: 07 Feb 11 - 06:11 PM ANd I agree that songs in films are hardly "commercial recordings," however, I am trying to gauge Bob's particular interest here. Both commercial discs and film soundtracks can be grouped as non-field recordings, i.e. performances designed for presentation, not documentation. There is something crucial in the act of presentation that involves a degree of self-consciousness and a well-formed idea of what one is trying to put across. Excuse my babbling on...I am currently working on an argument about how (so I claim) the re-conceptualizing of shanties as "folk songs" affected how people decided to present them. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Desert Dancer Date: 07 Feb 11 - 06:18 PM Sorry for my typos - the Minster Singers were from London. I think the Victor Encyclopedic Discography listing is suspect and will send them a note. Using your list of names, Q, I found Encyclopedia of Recorded Sound, Vol. 1 (Frank W. Hoffmann, ed., CRC Press, 2004), page 454 http://books.google.com/books?id=xV6tghvO0oMC Gramophone Quartet A British male group, active around 1906; also known as the Minster Singers, and probably they were also the Meister Singers. Members were Ernest Pike, Wilfred Virgo, Stanley Kirkby, and Peter Dawson. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Lighter Date: 07 Feb 11 - 06:27 PM Gibb, remember that early in the last century, the approved commercial as well as artistic way of performing folk songs of all kinds was in choral or bel canto style with formal piano arrangements. Burl Ives may have been the first folk "star" with just his voice and his own guitar. (Guthrie and Seeger were barely on the commercial radar back then - late '40s.) |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Desert Dancer Date: 07 Feb 11 - 06:34 PM Yes, Lighter, but look at Llewelyn Lloyd's notes in 1925 -- he's looking for a folkie sound, and having at least some satisfaction... |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 07 Feb 11 - 06:42 PM Stanley Kirkby, whom was part of the Minster and Meister singers, also worked under other names, Walter Miller, James Baker, J. Kaye and probably others. Wilfred Virgo made cylinders with Walter Hyde and Peter Dawson. http://angelfire.com/de3/viviandettbarn/radiodays.html. Ernest Pike recorded under some 10 names and with many partners; he sang and recorded in Gilbert & Sullivan operettas and did many of the favorites of the 1900-1910 period. These three, along with Peter Dawson, made recordings of Kipling songs and some sea songs, but I think I have all of their chanteys in the short list above. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Gibb Sahib Date: 07 Feb 11 - 06:53 PM Gibb, remember that early in the last century, the approved commercial as well as artistic way of performing folk songs of all kinds was in choral or bel canto style with formal piano arrangements. Forgive me for not clarifying what I meant. I don't mean "folk songs" as a style of performance (e.g. "untrained" vocal, guitar, etc.) I mean the concept of Folk music that ties into certain visions of cultural heritage (deemed "important" for its own sake). The 19th century commenters described "wild" and "plaintive" sounds that they connected with, in several cases, Black music. They also were well aware of the minstrel song connections. However, the early 20th c. folklorists filed shanties along with "English folk songs" and ballads. Even if bel canto was the norm, was there not a way to convey, say, "English folk song" versus "American popular song"? Certainly the text they would gravitate towards would be different -- no "Polly's in the garden pickin' peas." Perhaps if shanties were thought of as fleeting pop-music inspired doggerel or truly "uncouth" expression, such choirs would never have given them any attention. Just thinking here. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: RTim Date: 07 Feb 11 - 07:00 PM Gibb - In reality, the "English" collectors got both Folk Songs AND Shanties from the singers they encountered, so it was easy to meld them into one "music". There are very few singers, if any, who ONLY sang Shanties. Tim Radford |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: brezhnev Date: 07 Feb 11 - 07:02 PM gibb sahib: interested in your comment that 'commercial discs' are non-field recordings. where does that leave, say, the Columbia World Library of Folk and Primitive Music? Have I misunderstood what you mean by a commercial disc? |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Gibb Sahib Date: 07 Feb 11 - 07:27 PM Brezhnev, Define "commercial recordings" however you like. I've no interest in limiting it, except for the practical purpose of this thread. The OP, Bob Walser, is intimately familiar with the field-recordings contained in the Carpenter Collection. He also knows we'd be familiar with, e.g. the field recordings made by William Doerflinger for Library of Congress. So when he is asking for examples of "commercial recordings," we can assume he doesn't want people chiming in with that stuff. OK? In reality, the "English" collectors got both Folk Songs AND Shanties from the singers they encountered, so it was easy to meld them into one "music". Easy indeed -- but potentially misleading and none the less notable. Their predecessors did not do that, as they were "closer" to the living practice of shantying in its heyday and had a different frame of reference. Cecil Sharp's singers could probably also sing pop songs, yet he managed to avoid melding those into "one music." In fact, in his ridiculously titled "English Folk-Chanteys" he deliberately excluded what he deemed were popular song-based chanties. Such an act would certainly influence the perception of chanties for someone reading his collection. It's a good thing that he didn't know that many of the chanties he did include were based off popular songs, or else it might have been scanty indeed! The a priori frame of reference of the song collectors influenced what they chose to collect and how to present it. So yes, their work would have a specific influence on how later generations perceived the genre. And these perceptions would influence how performers chose to perform the songs -- even within the limitations/conventions of their era. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Sandra in Sydney Date: 07 Feb 11 - 08:08 PM Google search on "wax cylinders and shanties" Google search on "wax cylinders and chanteys" |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Lighter Date: 07 Feb 11 - 09:22 PM DD, I don't see anything about a "folkie" (or even "folky") sound in Lloyd's article. I do see a wish for more "vigorous," less "sentimental" and "precious" performances, along with a broader understanding of how shanties were actually used at sea. Such virtues wouldn't affect the generic style of presentation, however. You may be more familiar with the development of twentieth-century musical styles in general than I am. But I'd be surprised if any of those early recordings featured any of the performance styles that nowadays might be considered "folk" or "trad" in any sense. I'm thinking of the simplicity of the early Burl Ives, the clamorousness of a banjo-player like Pete Seeger, the (mostly) unharmonized stridency of MacColl and Lloyd, etc. - much less the often gruff solos of authentic shantymen like Richard Maitland and Stan Hugill. In terms of commercially released recordings, I'd guess those are all post-1930's developments. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Desert Dancer Date: 07 Feb 11 - 09:25 PM The trick with the wax cylinder records is to sort the field recordings from the commercial recordings. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 07 Feb 11 - 10:42 PM (Strictly digression, but Edward S. Curtis, famous photographer of the Indians, made thousands of wax cylinder recordings of their songs, chants, language and stories. Only a few of them have survived in transcribable condition). The University of California Santa Barbara has perhaps the best collection of wax cylinders, whose era ended in 1901-1902. They have some 300 from the early period, of which three may be marine or riverboat- Bell Buoy, Th Larboard watch, and Haul the Woodpile Down. They have over 2900 cylinders from the period 1901-1910, but I am not about to dig through that pile. I looked for Peter Dawson (32): The admiral's broom, 1912; The midshipmite, 1910; Out on the deep, 1910; a couple of the old English Navy standbys. None of the Minster Singers. A couple of hornpipes. http://cylinders.library.ucsb.edu/browse.php |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Desert Dancer Date: 07 Feb 11 - 11:02 PM Lighter, I'm sure you're right. It's more of relative measure that I meant. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: brezhnev Date: 08 Feb 11 - 07:02 AM So when he is asking for examples of "commercial recordings," we can assume he doesn't want people chiming in with that stuff. OK? Sorry? it was an innocent question. I just wondered what you were all on about when you talked about commercial discs. Would the ethnic/folk recordings being made for commercial purposes by people like The Gramophone Company and Odeon from 1900 onwards count as commercial discs? Or am i just being thick? |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Lighter Date: 08 Feb 11 - 09:09 AM Brezhnev, a "field recording" is simply one made of a traditional performer who is untrained (or in the case of fiddlers, for example, only slightly trained) in "art" music. A "commerical recording" can mean two things. It can be any recording of anything that's released to the public commercially (including items like the Columbia-Lomax discs, made up, as you say, of field recordings). Or it can focus on commercial releases of trad music performed in a familiar commercial (rather than a trad) style. So sometimes "commercial" points to production and marketing, sometimes instead to the style of the performance. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Charley Noble Date: 08 Feb 11 - 09:14 AM An impressive harvest of early recordings and with notes. The public interest in sea shanties that peaked in the 1920's (a rather small peak similar to a mole hill) was critically assessed by Cicely Fox Smith at the time, from the introduction of her collection of traditional sea songs called A BOOK OF SHANTIES, © 1927, pp. 14-15: "...let me briefly describe a painful experience of my own as to how not to do it. It was at a music hall which shall be nameless. The curtain rose, revealing one of those impossible stage inns -- made of creeper and green trellis at seven pence-ha'penny a lineal foot -- called "The Jolly Tar," or something equally improbable. Outside this preposterous establishment were seated at a small table three large mariners, whose costume -- an artistic blend of jerseys, seaboots, cheesecutter and stocking caps -- suggested that they had made an indiscriminate raid on the slop chest at the Sailors' Home. Quoth one of these worthies to another: 'Let's have a tchahntey!' and amid encouraging cries of 'A tchahntey -- yes, a tchahntey!' the individual addressed rose, and, with a wealth of dramatic gesture, laying aside his churchwarden pipe, sang -- well, I just forget what he did sing! It was too painful to listen to...Strong men have wept to see such things done: murmuring the while in voices broken with emotion that they wished they had that blank-blank crowd on watch in the old This-That-or-the-Other, in order that they might perform the interesting nautical operation of knocking eight bells out of them." Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Lighter Date: 08 Feb 11 - 09:24 AM Nice quote, Charley! Hugill mentions that about the style was still used for Folkways "Songs of the Sea," with Alan Mills and the Four Shipmates - as late as 1957! And produced by the noted Canadian folklorist Edith Fowke! If you don't mind the style, it's a pleasant enough album with no less than *32* songs taken pretty faithfully from the usual collections. http://www.folkways.si.edu/albumdetails.aspx?itemid=185 |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Charley Noble Date: 08 Feb 11 - 09:38 AM I've just been checking through my archive of old 78 recordings of sea music. I haven't turned up much and none of it rivals what Desert Dancer and Q have dug up: Richard Dyer-Bennet recorded on Richard Dyer-Bennet - Lute Singer - Ballads and Folk Songs, Keynote Recordings, Album No. 108, © 1941: Hullabaloo Belay What Shall We Do with a Drunken Sailor Leonard Warren (with Orchestra and Chorus!) recorded on Sea Shanties, RCA Victor Red Seal Records, circa 1940, collected and arranged by Tom Scott: Blow the Man Down Rio Grande The Drummer & the Cook (identified as a foc'sle song rather than a shanty) Shenandoah Haul-A-Way Joe Low Lands The Drunken Sailor A-Rovin' Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: GUEST,Max Johnson Date: 08 Feb 11 - 11:17 AM Apologies if this is slightly off-topic. I recently heard some recordings of shanties and sea songs from the remote island of St Helena. They were being sung in English, with concertina, by people who were clearly used to singing them as working songs. A strange concertina style too, to my untutored ear. I'll see if I can get a copy of the (private) recording, but it might take a while. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Sailor Ron Date: 08 Feb 11 - 11:25 AM Max, in the late 60s/early 70s whilst serving in the MN I called in to St. Helena on several occasions. I too heard singing sea songs, not as far as I can remember shanties. Like the young fool that I was I never recorded them nor even noted what they were. Now of caurse I could kick myself. If you could get a copy I would be most obliged. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: brezhnev Date: 08 Feb 11 - 01:00 PM So sometimes "commercial" points to production and marketing, sometimes instead to the style of the performance Cheers, Lighter. So what you're talking about here are discs made in 'art music style' for commercial purposes, but not recordings of traditional singers untrained in art music made for commercial purposes. I get it. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Bob_Walser Date: 08 Feb 11 - 01:46 PM Many thanks to all for their contributions. What great sleuths! To clarify: I was curious about recordings of performances made specifically for sale to the general public rather than issues of 'field recordings' such as the early Library of Congress sets. For the period in question I don't think there existed a functional technology to mass-produce, say, selections from Percy Grainger's 1906 field recordings - so the early mass-produced cylinders and discs had to be made from performances made with reproduction in mind. The picture I'm getting is much as I'd imagined: male voices with chorus and piano and/or orchestral accompaniment. I'd love to listen to some of these (well, once at least). The impressions from the _Gramophone_ reviews are great. And I enjoyed the comments on the folk-ness of performance. What is the appropriate aesthetic? C. Fox Smith wouldn't have presented us with that delightful rant unless the performance she so derides represented a challenge or threat or . . . |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Desert Dancer Date: 08 Feb 11 - 01:54 PM Way back at the top, Bob Walser said: I'm wondering what the earliest commercial shanty recordings were. My guess would be soloist (probably tenor or bass) with orchestra, chorus or piano. My interpretation is that he wants to know what was manufactured for sale under the banner of "sea shanties" in the earliest years of recorded music sales, and what style of performance it was. I'd be very surprised if there were any "recordings of traditional singers untrained in art music made for commercial purposes", but I'm sure he (and the rest of us) would love to know if there were. Barring that, the comments from contemporaries (Cecily Fox Smith's is revealing!) and notes on performers (barring actual audio to hear with our modern ears) tell what the style of "commercial" performance was. It does look like they all are done by groups, rather than soloists, so that's a start. The Raymond Newell recording that started the list off has piano accompaniment, but most of the others don't make note of accompaniment. So, that's a small step closer to what you'd "want" than Bob assumed at the start. The "bel canto" voices are probably still a safe assumption, though. What we want is audio... ~ Becky in Long Beach |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Desert Dancer Date: 08 Feb 11 - 01:55 PM Cross-posted with you, Bob! ~ Becky |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Lighter Date: 08 Feb 11 - 04:24 PM My guess is that Fox Smith was annoyed by the social and psychological misrepresentation of the material as the commercial discs presented it. She knew something about the realities of seafaring. These had nothing to do with the extremely mannered, "jolly-tar" stereotype that's existed since the 18th Century. (Check your nearest Ren Faire for Pyrate bands and you'll see things haven't changed much.) She may have wanted greater public recognition of what kind of work sailors really did, and an end to the idea, as Stan Hugill memorably put it, that sea labor was like being on stage in some kind of floating music hall. (Forgive the paraphrase from memory!) |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Gibb Sahib Date: 08 Feb 11 - 05:17 PM My guess is that Fox Smith was annoyed by the social and psychological misrepresentation of the material as the commercial discs presented it. Very well put, Lighter. And thanks for the quote, Charlie. We could probably pin-point a couple-year span when shanties got really popular. C Fox Smith's note was published 1927. What I believe to be a 1927-published revised edition of Davis Tozer contained advertisements for lots of chanty sheet music for sale. Colcord's first came in 1924 -- I don't remember if she makes any comments along these lines. The recordings discovered, above, are largely 1925-1928. Was Terry's book (Part One) the/a main impetus for all this? I wonder when the phrase "sea shanty" first started getting used? (I know C.F. Smith also had a pithy comment on that, Charlie!) One could argue that, on some level, the use of the phrase correlates with the sort of misrepresentation that may have disturbed better-informed observers. Pin-point the phrase, and see how (if at all) it fits with this early "revival". |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Charley Noble Date: 08 Feb 11 - 06:01 PM Gibb- C. Fox Smith used all the different ways of spelling "shanty" including her parody spelling "tchahntey." She used "shanty" for her traditional collection of such sea songs but earlier for her sea poetry books had used the full range of spellings. The rant from her above was focused on live performances rather than recordings. Here's one more semi-early recording from my archives: Bill Bonyun, Who Built America, Folkways Records, FW07542, 1950: Santy Anno Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Gibb Sahib Date: 08 Feb 11 - 06:10 PM Charlie, I wasn't talking about spelling -- i was talking about the arguably redundant phrase "*SEA* shanty." |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Chantey Recording From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 08 Feb 11 - 06:47 PM SHANTY needs the modification because its primary meaning is a small, crude dwelling place. In print, 1820. See Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary. (Also see shanty town, a slum settlement (Wikipedia)). Webster's dictionary has the separate entry, "var of CHANTEY". Also CHANTY. I could add that the 'shanty' variant developed largely out of ignorance of the root of the word. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Lighter Date: 08 Feb 11 - 06:58 PM Charley, a quick re-read shows that that stage performance must have been pretty embarrassing. Who among us wouldn't have bridled at "Sing us a tschahntey!" particularly in a leisure-time setting? I can imagine the stage grimaces and hornpiping too! |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Desert Dancer Date: 08 Feb 11 - 07:16 PM O.k., I'm about to tread further into ground that others here are more knowledgeable about... Joanna C. Colcord, Roll and Go: Songs of American Sailormen, was 1924. Richard Runciman Terry, The Sea Shanty Book, was 1921. In the introduction, Sir Walter Runciman says: I know, of course, that several shanty collections are in the market, but as a sailor I am bound to say that only one—Capt. W.B. Whall's 'Sea Songs, Ships, and Shanties'—can be regarded as authoritative. Only a portion of Capt. Whall's delightful book is devoted to shanties, of which he prints the melodies only (without accompaniment); and of these he does not profess to give more than those he himself learnt at sea. I am glad, therefore, to welcome Messrs. Curwen's [the publishers] project of a wide and representative collection. Dr. Terry's qualifications as editor are exceptional, since he was reared in an environment of nineteenth-century seamen, and is the only landsman I have met who is able to render shanties as the old seamen did. I am not musician enough to criticize his pianoforte accompaniments, but I can vouch for the authenticity of the melodies as he presents them, untampered with in any way. Capt. W.B. Whall, Sea Songs and Shanties, 1910, is unfortunately not digitized on the web. John Masefield, A Sailor's Garland, 1905 (at Google Books: http://books.google.com/books?id=-vYjAAAAMAAJ) has a chapter after the poems with the texts of "chanties". Masefield says, "Those who wish to obtain the music of the commoner chanties will find Miss Laura Smith's Music of the Waters and the anthology of Dr. Ferris Tozer of use to them. Several may be found in the songbook of the Guild of Handicraft. I have also seen a collection of them published (I believe) by Messrs. Metzler. The files of the Boy's Own Paper, The Cadet and the publications of the Folk-Song Society may also be consulted with advantage." Laura Alexandrine Smith, "The music of the waters: A collection of the sailors' chanties, or working songs of the sea, of all maritime nations. Boatmen's, fishermen's, and rowing songs, and water legends", 1888, is also at Google Books: http://books.google.com/books?id=Xzk9AAAAYAAJ. She provides melodies (without suggesting accompaniment) as well as the texts. She acknowledges "the editor of The Shipping World (Major E. R. Jones, United States' Consul, Cardiff), who originated the idea of a collection of the sailors' songs of all nations, by commissioning me to write for his paper a series of articles containing specimens of each country's 'chanties;', and last, but not least, to the sailors themselves, without whose unwearying patience in singing for me their favorite 'chanties,' and in supplying me with all necessary information as to their use, &c., I should not have the honor of inscribing to His Royal Highness Prince George of Wales, and to all who are interested in the sea and its toiler, 'The Music of the Waters.' " The material and the interest in it was out there. It seems natural that it would appear in the commercial recordings, and the '20s are when publication of commercial recordings took off. -- A side note on the term shanty/chanty (etymologyonline.com puts "shanty" back to 1867): I take C Fox Smith's "tchahntey" to be a critique of those who don't get the pronunciation detailed by Masefield at the start of his chapter: "The worked chanty is not pronounced as spelt, like the word chant with an added y final. It is pronounced shanty, to rhyme with scanty, the ch soft and the a narrow." Masefield further notes: "The verb to chanty is frequently used, as in the order 'Chanty it up, now,' or the injunction 'Heave and chanty.' ~ Becky in Long Beach |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Charley Noble Date: 08 Feb 11 - 09:04 PM Becky- There are a few more early sea music books that we could add to those you mention. My personal favorite among the sailor editors has to be Frank T. Bullen, Songs of Sea Labour, © 1914. But there are several others that Lighter and Gibb and Q have drawn our attention to. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Desert Dancer Date: 08 Feb 11 - 09:25 PM Plenty going on, then! It's fun (and darn handy) to find some online. Bullen is available as a pdf download here. ~ Becky in Long Beach |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: KathyW Date: 08 Feb 11 - 09:38 PM Charley, that reminds me, I really need to get around to OCR-ing at least the text portions of Bullen's book and post it as well as the scan. But Becky, here you go, "Songs of Sea Labour" by Frank Bullen: http://www.yellowzeppelin.com/frank%20bullen.html (pops new window). |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: KathyW Date: 08 Feb 11 - 09:39 PM Becky, glad you found it! |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: KathyW Date: 08 Feb 11 - 10:31 PM Not sure if this counts as the sort of thing you are looking for, but I found an archive of scanned and midi-ed piano rolls. http://www.iammp.org/rolldatabase.php?showpage=65&sortby=composer There's a roll from 1917 of "I'll Come Sailing Home To You"-- it starts off with the Sailor's Hornpipe. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Gibb Sahib Date: 09 Feb 11 - 04:14 AM Here's an attempt at summarizing the recordings chronologically so far. Sorry for any mistakes. 1905 --Minster Singers: (Victor 61145) "The Capstan Bar" (61146) "Blow, My Bully Boys" and "Sally Brown" (61147) "Whisky Johnny," and "Shenandoah" (61148) "Rio Grande" and "Blow the Man Down" From John Bradford and Arthur Fagge _Old Sea Chanties_ (1904) 1917 --Henry Burr and Albert Campbell: (Victor 18327) "Shenandoah" From ?? pre 1925[July] --John Goss and the Cathedral Singers (His Master's Voice, B.1999) "Rio Grande", "Billy Boy," "Shenandoah" From Terry, _The Shanty Book_ (1921). (HMV B.2018) "Can't you dance the polka?" Arranged E. J. Moeran & "A-Roving," Arranged by Cecil J. Sharp, from _English Folk-Chanteys_ (1914)? pre 1926[Aug] --Kenneth Ellis and chorus (Parlophone E.5583) "Amsterdam (also known as A-roving)", Shenandoah" (Parlophone E.5584) "The Drunken Sailor," "Santy Anna," "Lowlands Away" (E.5585) "Rio Grande," "Reuben Ranzo," "Blow the man down," "Johnny come down to Hilo." *Probably* from Terry and/or Sharp pre 1927[March] --John Buckley and chorus (Vocalion X. 9786) "Tom's gone to Hilo," "Billy Boy," "Rio Grande," "Blow the man down" (Vocalion X.9787) "Shenandoah," "Johnny come down to Hilo," "A long time ago," "Fire down below" --Robert Carr and the Seafarers (V.F.1159) "Billy Boy," "Blow the man down," and "Shenandoah" (V.F.1163) "Rio Grande," and "Johnny come down to Hilo" (Edison Bell V.F.1164) "The Drunken Sailor", "Whisky Johnny" --John Thorne and male trio (Aco G.15870) "The Shantyman's Song," "Can't you dance the polka?", "The Drunken Sailor," "Johnny come down to Hilo" (G.15824) "Haul away Joe," "Rio Grande," "Shenandoah," and "Billy Boy" 1928[Jan] --Raymond Newell and Chorus (Columbia 4689) "Johnny Come Down to Hilo", "The Hog's Eye Man", "We're All Bound to Go" From Terry's The Shanty Book. *** From this batch, the following items of repertoire appeared (w/ number of frequency): A-Roving (2) Billy Boy (4) Blow the Man Down (4) Blow, Boys, Blow Can't you dance the polka? (2) Capstan Bar Drunken Sailor (3) Fire down below Haul away Joe Hog's Eye Man Johnny come down to Hilo (5) Long time ago Lowlands Away Reuben Ranzo Rio Grande (6) Sally Brown Santy Anna Shantyman's Song (Huckleberry Hunting) Shenandoah (7) Tom's gone to Hilo We're All Bound to Go (Heave Away My Johnnies) Whiskey Johnny (2) |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Charley Noble Date: 09 Feb 11 - 07:36 AM In the 1940's Leadbelly also recorded a few robust shanties on Folkways, including "Haul Away Joe." I'll have to recheck his discography for the other ones. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Desert Dancer Date: 09 Feb 11 - 02:12 PM I should amend my 08 Feb 11 - 01:54 PM post to say it's not clear whether any of the performances were unaccompanied. The omission of info on accompaniment doesn't mean there wasn't any... Llewelyn Lloyd says in his review about the Kenneth Ellis recordings on Parlorphone that "the accompaniment is provided by a string quartet and flute, which proves a pleasant change from the usual pianoforte". ~ Becky in Long Beach |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 09 Feb 11 - 05:25 PM Whall, Sea Songs and Shanties, was reprinted in 2010, with the title: Ships, Sea Songs and Shanties, Whall, W. B., and Whall, R. H., 2010, 154 pp., Nabu Press, paperback. List $21.75, sale price by Amazon.com, $16.97. (The first edition, 1910, Brown, Son & Ferguson: reprinted, 6th ed. 1927; 1948, 1963, 1974. Hardback except flexible cover in 1926-7.) Abebooks has the Nabu reprint as low as c. $13, Ferguson hardbacks as low as c. $20. Bullen, not reprinted, is expensive. Masefield's Garland is easily obtainable. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Desert Dancer Date: 09 Feb 11 - 08:42 PM A small update: I contacted the UC Santa Barbara Library (source of the online Victor catalog) to question the "Georgia Sea Singers" cross-reference for the Minster Singers. They confirm this is a mistranscription and should be "Georgia Glee Singers". Looks like they've made the correction online. I was wondering if even that was a mixup, but it looks as if the same personnel recorded under different names for different repertoires. (The Georgia Glee singers doing minstrel show songs.) They show up adjacent to one another on a 1901 Gramophone catalog available as a pdf from the British Library, from this page: http://sounds.bl.uk/View.aspx?item=029M-GRAGX1901XXX-0000V0.xml (You can PM me for a copy of the pdf if you can't get access. I work at a university, so I can get through. There are some lovely and somewhat random photos included.) More to the point of this thread is that in this full (101 pages, quite diverse) 1901 catalog I can't find any listing of sea shanties titles. There are a few items of a nautical flavor, but not shanties. ~ Becky in Long Beach |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Desert Dancer Date: 09 Feb 11 - 10:30 PM I can't find any shanties in the Edison Amberol 1920 (American) catalog. http://sounds.bl.uk/View.aspx?item=029M-EDIGX1920XXX-0000V0.xml ~ B in LB |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: InOBU Date: 10 Feb 11 - 03:34 AM Interesting note above on Shanty as a hovel in a slum... it comes from the Irish, sean teach, old house, sean being old and used in Ireland to describe traditional older singing styles, - sean nos... There were certainly a large number of sailors from Irish speaking communities in most merchant marines, and Gaelic has crept into a lot of English slang - kabosh (cape of death) - galore ( enough ) - but, it seems to me, that sea shanty might also come from the French word for song... Chears'm'dears agus, slan (so - long) Lorcan |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 10 Feb 11 - 12:58 PM Shanty (the shack, hovel) is considered to have its origin in French chantier, building site, job site, depot; but in informal French, a mess, shambles. Quel chantier ! - What a mess! See Oxford English Dictionary. Not Irish according to the linguists. Kibosh (kybosh)- origin obscure according to OED; some have proposed Yiddish or anglo-hebraic. Galore- Irish. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: InOBU Date: 11 Feb 11 - 05:00 AM Oxford is not very high in the estimation of we Irish, and well, being Anglo Irish, my grand da was a Cambridge man... the only thing which might support the French origions is that the adjective comes second in Irish, generally, but than there is sean-nos, old style. So, I will let the OED slobs (also from the Irish) believe what they will, seantigh is as Irish, as well, the glens of Antrim - ( excuse that I tread close to sliping in a slogan - also, and Irish word ) The OED would contest the example of the Glens to be a good analogy. But than again, I am sure they are a pack or Tories, Torai or Tory being a bandit. As to OED's handle on Gaelige, to put the cap of death on someone, to deliver the caidhp báis is an old phrase in Irish, used long before the middle ages and the introduction of Yiddish to Ireland - which has happened, for example in Kerry we would say of the OED... och, what a pack of smuckeens. Ach, anish, ta me "Conca" from this cold, so I am off to bed. (conca = conked) Well... there is much about us the OED has not glomed (Irish for grab)on to... or as the OED would say, much on to which they have not glommed... Well, for now, I close with a tip of the whiskey glass (happy for that one at least, I suppose you should be...) Is mise, le meas, ar chor ar bith Lorcan |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Desert Dancer Date: 12 May 11 - 10:23 AM I have checked the new National Jukebox site for those 1905 Minster Singers Victor recordings, but can't find 'em. They were recorded in London, I wonder if that means they won't show up at all. Will make inquiry. :-( ~ Becky in Tucson |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Bill D Date: 12 May 11 - 11:12 AM The Library of Congress has some recordings This collection has some Or, simply go to http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/browse/ListSome.php?format=Sound+Recording and search for 'sea songs'. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Bill D Date: 12 May 11 - 11:18 AM It seems about all those were recorded in 1938-1939 |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Gibb Sahib Date: 10 Aug 11 - 10:37 PM I'd be interested in continuing this discussion to include the development/history of commercial chanty recordings. We've talked about some of the "earliest", but could continue onward. Of particular note would be the sources of information of the performers. How did style develop? What "versions" gained hold through recordings? These and other questions might be interesting. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Gibb Sahib Date: 10 Aug 11 - 10:58 PM We could study it decade by decade, for example, 1900s decade 1905, The Minster Singers: (Victor 61145) "The Capstan Bar" (61146) "Blow, My Bully Boys" and "Sally Brown" (61147) "Whisky Johnny," and "Shenandoah" (61148) "Rio Grande" and "Blow the Man Down" From (in conjunction with) John Bradford and Arthur Fagge's booklet, _Old Sea Chanties_ (1904). |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: RoyH (Burl) Date: 11 Aug 11 - 06:10 AM This is a wonderful thread, packed with information. I started reeading from the first posting and was soon thinking 'I must tell them about John Goss.' But then up came Desert Dancer and his great post of 7 Feb, 04.48pm All I was going to say was that John Goss was a very popular singer and probably the first man to record 'Hullabaloo Belay'. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Gibb Sahib Date: 11 Aug 11 - 07:08 AM Hi burl, Do you have any more info on the "Hullabaloo" recording? |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Charley Noble Date: 11 Aug 11 - 09:37 PM Gibb- This is a great concept but I've just not the time to sort through the recordings I have. Maybe I'll be feeling less stressed come September. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Gibb Sahib Date: 12 Aug 11 - 02:54 AM Hi Charley, I've not much time, either -- too many pots boiling right now! What I meant was just to allow the thread to continue, and anyone can add info into it at leisure. The main idea, however, would be that the info added would be accompanied by some sense (even if conjecture) of where the recordings "fit in" and/or where they were coming from. Minimally I thought it could be refreshed! Gibb |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Gibb Sahib Date: 13 Aug 11 - 04:28 AM So, for the 1900s decade, I've not been able to spot any other recordings. This ad in a 1905 magazine lists the Minster Singers' recordings of 7 chanties. http://books.google.com/books?id=wH4cAAAAIAAJ&pg=RA2-PA184&dq=%22minster+singers On article from 24 Aug, 1907 (Tin he Living Age, vol. 36, no. 3294) on "THE TALKING-MACHINE", mentions "sea-chanties" on cylinder. I believe the genre is merely being used rhetorically to show variety and novelty, and, though speaking generically, the Minster Singers recordings were likely what was in mind. The record connoisseur has a wide choice in which to specialize. He may go in for specimens of famous bands, such as the Scots Guards, the irish Guards, the Garde Republicaine, &c., or he may prefer English, Scotch, or irish ballads; if instrumental solos, then he has violin, pianoforte, cornet, piccolo, xylophone, banjo, concertina, &c., many of them made by worldfamous artists. Of vocal records there are many fine soprano, contralto, tenor, baritone, and bass records on the market, without counting duets, quartettes, choruses, &c. Then there are national airs or specimens of music peculiar to the different countries; Turkish, Russian, Japanese, Chinese records, and many others, are all obtainable. Descriptive records alone offer a tempting field. If the quaint and exceptional specially appeal, then the collector may go in for pygmy records, sea-chanties, &c., ... The Minster Singers' recordings were evidently renditions of Bradford & Fagge's collection. I don't recall seeing the influence of those versions on later recordings I've heard. Where these recordings listened to by later performers? I would guess the answer is, pretty much, no. Besides, the next set of performers would be following the scores of someone else's presentations. I wonder if (and I guess there isn't) much or any connection between these recordings of the 1900s and those in the first revival of the 1920s. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: RoyH (Burl) Date: 13 Aug 11 - 05:58 AM Gibb Sahib, Sorry mate, I have no real evidence at all. I sang it at a club one night, years ago, and a bloke approached me in the interval and told me his dad had an old record of the song sung by John Goss, 'perhaps the first recording.' Until then I'd never heard of John Goss but I did find out that he was very popular in his day and just assumed that my informant was correct. No Google in those days of course. Cheers, Burl. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Gibb Sahib Date: 22 Sep 11 - 04:08 PM Does anyone know of any commercial recordings of chanties in the 1910s decade? I think the history of these recordings is a good way to follow the development of the chanty revival(s). So far, I'm seeing the Minster Singers recordings of the 1900s decade as an isolated incident. I'm suggesting that they were done mainly as a novelty, and they filled a "slot" in the growing record market that sought to offer diverse selections for collectors. (I am not saying that was the inspiration for recording, however.) There doesn't seem to have been any strong, broad interest in listening to/performing chanties as entertainment at that time. Shanties *were* being written about, in nostalgic terms or framed as folklore, at that time. I'd be interested to fill in some gaps to better pinpoint when, by the 1920s, chanteys began to have wide appeal. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Gibb Sahib Date: 22 Sep 11 - 04:43 PM Before Bradford & Fagge's collection, I think Davis & Tozer's was the only chanty designed to facilitate performance (Luce's collection, 1882/1902 also had a few songs buried in its pages). Davis's 3rd edition (?), 1891 (?), is the one most people would have had access to early on -- until it was revived in revised edition in 1927. But although the lyrics of Davis's book were widely quoted/copied by authors in the 1890s-1910s, I don't know anything about whether many people were actually performing Tozer's arrangements. There is this note from RR Terry, in his 1921 _Shanty Book_: Davis and Tozer's book has had a great vogue, as it was for many years the only one on the market. Terry does not mention Bradford/Fagge. Folklorists' presentations of chanties began in the 1900s decade and into the 1910s. The 1910s saw the publication of substantial collections in which the songs were presented as if they should be performed -- examples being Whall (1910), Bullen (1914), and Sharp (1914). However, as we've discussed elsewhere, their usability seems to have been retarded by their very brief texts. So, indeed...I'm yet unsure whether, in the 1910s, the "general public" yet had easy access to chanties to consume. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Gibb Sahib Date: 22 Sep 11 - 08:18 PM Jumping off the track her, but an interesting "early" recording of the French chanty, "Et Nous Irons à Valparaiso" (cross between Goodbye, Fare Ye Well and Blow the Man Down). From 1932, it's Lys Gauty singing "Valparaiso" Capt. Hayet had this in his 1927 collection of French chanties, which I understand popularized the song. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Ross Campbell Date: 22 Sep 11 - 08:48 PM Q above listed various sources for Capt. W. B. Whall's book "Sea Songs and Shanties". It's still available (£9.95 + p&p) direct from the original publishers, and as far as I can see has never been out of print:- Sea Songs and Shanties at Brown, Son & Ferguson For anybody interested in ships and shipping, from the days of sail right up to modern times, their catalogue is a treasurehouse:- Brown, Son & Ferguson Catalogue Happy browsing! |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Gibb Sahib Date: 23 Sep 11 - 01:33 AM For the 1910s I forgot to mention the recording (posted by Q. above) by Henry Burr and Albert Campbell of "Shenandoah." According to THIS PAGE , it was recorded on June 19, 1917. According to other info I found on the web, it reached #9 on the Billboard chart in October 1917. "Halsey K. Mohr" has been credited as composer and lyricist, though I imagine that might just mean he was "arranger". It would be interesting to know what he used as his source. I wouldn't say this item shows any sort interest in shanties. However, I don't whether "Shenandoah," by this time, had yet become dislodged from it's strong shanties associations. Would this first "charting" recording become the basis of later popular interpretations of the song? |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Gibb Sahib Date: 23 Sep 11 - 02:08 AM Percy Grainger's arrangements fit into this somehow, though I don't know if one would really call them "significant." This would fit, initially, into the English folklorists phase of the 1900s. The songs he collected appeared in this article: 1908 Broadwood, Lucy E., Percy Grainger, Cecil J. Sharp, Ralph Vaughan Williams, Frank Kidson, J.A. Fuller-Maitland, and A.G. Gilchrist. "[Songs Collected by Percy Grainger]." _Journal of the Folk-Song Society_ 3(12) (May 1908): 170-242. The chanty items are: SUNG BY MR. JOHN PERRING, AT DARTMOUTH, JAN. 18TH AND 25TH, 1908. Collected and noted by H. E. Piggott and Percy Grainger: STORM ALONG. DOLLAR AND A 'ALF A DAY. TOM'S GONE TO ILO. SHALLOW BROWN. Collected and sung by Mr. Charles Rosher Noted by Percy Grainger, July 24th, 1906, and April 3rd, 1907. STORMY. LOWLANDS. SANTA ANNA. TOM'S GONE TO ILO. Between 1907 and 1910+, Grainger composed art music arrangements based on what he'd collected/noted. These were: Dollar and a Half a Day (a composite of the two variants above) [ca.1922/23], Shallow Brown [1927], Stormy [unpublished], Shenandoah [unpublished]. I've put the dates of publication in brackets. I don't know if there would have been, possibly, many performances of these works before they were officially published. Anyway, though Grainger created the arrangements in the 1900s, they may not have had any influence until the chanty revival was getting under way, 1920s. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Gibb Sahib Date: 23 Sep 11 - 02:47 AM If there were very few or "none" commercial chanty recordings in the 1910, and if the few earlier recordings are islands that didn't really impact much that followed, how did a revival of interest in performing chanties (i.e. for fun) grow by the 1920s? What sort of support was there by way of publications (discussed elsewhere), commercial recordings (theme of this thread), and live performances (in a revival-istic vein--and angle I am humbly suggesting is of some relevance to the main theme of this thread)? *** In America there was Stanton H. King. I don't have his book at my disposal: King, Stanton H. King's Book of Chanties. Boston and New York: Oliver Ditson Co. One of the main things to note is that it came out of his duties as "official chantyman" for the American Merchant Marine, which evidently started during the last year of WWI. Here are some newspaper excerpts about King that have been gathered by Pam Beveridge on her Heirlooms Reunited Blog. The Fort Wayne News And Sentinel 14 Feb 1918 - Fort Wayne, Indiana Official chantie man for the American Merchant Marine is a brand new war job now being held down by Stanton H. King, of Boston. King is to revive chantie singing among the young sailors of Uncle Sam's new cargo ships. An old salt, who first went to sea from the Barbadoes thirty-eight years ago, and who for years sailed on deep-water Yankee ships, King shows that a good chantie is worth an extra hand. He is the best known singer of sailor songs in the country. "Many a time when things were going wrong, a fellow yo-h-ing a lively song has put strength into all our arms", said King. "You know the sailor has a sweetheart in every port. But the sailor's heart is not easily broken, for when one nymph leaves him, he speedily turns to another. Here's a harrowing pang: 'How I missed her, how I missed her, How I missed my Clementine! But I kissed her little sister and forgot my Clementine." We can bring many a fine old chantie up to date for use on army transports. This would go fine in the war zone: ' Masy a gallant ton of coal our bunkers they are full, Poke away my stokers, poke away!'" ... From the Nashua Reporter, Nashua, Iowa, 7 Mar 1918 Stanton H. King of Boston has the only war job of its kind. He is official chantie man of the American Merchant Marine. His work will be to revive chantie singing among merchant sailors who will join the country's new cargo ships through the United States shipping board recruiting service, national headquarters of which are at Boston. While chantie singing has declined on all seas, owing to the change in recent years from sailing vessels to steamers, there not being much opportunity to "heave and haul" on board a steamer - its revival is considered important for two reasons. Mr. King is an old salt and learned chantie singing in its home, on deepwater vessels. He began going to sea 38 years ago from the Barbados, in the merchant service. For six years he served chiefly on deep-water Yankee ships... Note the use of the word "revival." Who was it that had the idea to deliberately revive chanty singing? And just what were the the "two reasons" why it was important? What did they actually hope to accomplish? If it was mainly to build morale, I wonder how well it succeeded...and if there is a legacy of King's chanties that we can trace down to today among servicemen. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Gibb Sahib Date: 28 Sep 11 - 08:40 PM This reference nicely fits the sort of thing I was looking for: the sense of a foundation for interest in performing or hearing, chanties, in the 1910s, that could support the developing recording industry and eventually lead to commercial recordings of shanties...and ultimately, revival. Making reference to the activities of SH King promoting chanties in the American Merchant Marine, the writer supposes that soon they will be recorded and enjoyed by landlubbing audiences. (Cross-posted in another thread.) 1918 Unknown. "Carrying the Sea Atmosphere Inland." _Shipping_ 5(7) (16 November 1918): 13-5. Folks back home at Bangor, Maine, or Mesa, Arizona, who have boys in the Merchant Marine, may soon hear real sea songs, as they now look on scenes aboard ship, without leaving their own neighborhood —sailors' "chanteys" are being preserved on phonograph records for home use—life on square-riggers, cargo steamers and merchant marine training ships, has become material for the "Movies"—altogether an interesting phase of a "back to the sea" movement of national proportions. …In this educational effort for it is such, purely, undertaken from various angles by various people, but under authority of the United States Shipping Board, official sponsor for the merchant marine --some novel effects are being worked out. For example, in due time it may be expected that sailors' songs and sailors' "chanteys"--as sung in forecastles and at tasks on deck when Jack the merchant mariner was a personage afloat and ashore, as he is getting to be again --will be reproduced in the records of the family phonograph. "Chanteys" for the Music Machine. Chantey singing is being revived in the merchant marine, at least on the training ships which are preparing Young America, at the rate of 4,000 lads a month, for service on our vast new commerce fleets, and under the new order of things it will be possible for Bangor, Maine, and Mesa, Arizona to hear in the same hour the actual notes and phrases of such famous chanteys as "Shenandoah," "Bound for the Rio Grande" and "Blow the Man Down," for the record may have them hard and fast before spring flowers bloom again. … |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Desert Dancer Date: 29 Sep 11 - 02:17 PM Wow. That's a good one, Gibb Sahib. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: shipcmo Date: 29 Sep 11 - 05:35 PM King's Book Of Chanties by Stanton H. King Official Government Chanty-Man Boston 1918 Contents Long Drag Chanries A Long Time Ago Blow, Boys, Blow Blow the Man Down Boney Was A Warrior Dead Horse, The Hanging Johnnie Leave Her, Johnny, Leave Her Reuben Ranzo Roll The Cotton Down Tom's Gone To Ilo Whisky For My Johnnie Short Drag Chanties Haul Away, Joe Haul the Bowline Johnny Boker Paddy Doyle Capatan Chanties Homeward Bound Hoodah-Say Plains of Mexico, The Rio Grande Sally Brown We're All Bound To Go Wide Missouri, The Pumping Chanties One More Day Storm-Along Old Sea Songs A-Roving Farewell, And Adieu To You High Barbaree Rolling Home This is a booklet, 5 1/8" x 7 3/4" For the purists, I can scan & post. Cheers, Geo |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Gibb Sahib Date: 29 Sep 11 - 06:19 PM Hurroh for Geo! *** As a point of interest, I've marked with "**" the songs that JM Carpenter collected (?) from SH King in 1928. As far as I can tell, there are no recordings, just music notations and texts. Did Carpenter take them down from King's lips? Seems kind of funny if he did, because the set corresponds almost exactly to the set of songs in King's book! I would imagine that King standardized his versions pretty much. (Being a man of the church, he may have ensured "clean and wholesome" versions, too.) **A Long Time Ago **Blow, Boys, Blow **Blow the Man Down **Boney Was A Warrior **Dead Horse, The **Hanging Johnnie **Leave Her, Johnny, Leave Her **Reuben Ranzo **Roll The Cotton Down **Tom's Gone To Ilo **Whisky For My Johnnie Short Drag Chanties **Haul Away, Joe **Haul the Bowline **Johnny Boker **Paddy Doyle Capstan Chanties Homeward Bound Hoodah-Say **Plains of Mexico, The **Rio Grande **Sally Brown **We're All Bound To Go **Wide Missouri, The Pumping Chanties **One More Day **Storm-Along Old Sea Songs **A-Roving **Farewell, And Adieu To You High Barbaree Rolling Home In addition to those marked, King also contributed to Carpenter a "haul together" chanty, which might have been "The Fishes." Hard to tell. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Gibb Sahib Date: 30 Sep 11 - 06:58 PM This event described by the source (below) is interesting because it marks perhaps the first (or first I've seen!) instances of chanties being performed by "laymen". Although we don't know if, perhaps, some or all of the performers were ex-seamen, it seems to me that most or all were simply interested amateurs. They speak of preserving the songs – the first rumblings of a revival? As I said, Davis/Tozer's volume, which doesn't seem to have gotten much notice until its third edition, looks to have been the only publication in the 19th century that was created to facilitate performance of chanties by laypersons. Audio recording was not yet envisioned. However, the interest in preserving and preservation by laypersons --grounds for a revival-- seems to have started not much more than a decade after people (e.g. Alden, 1882) were declaring chanties to be "dead." 1895 Manchester Literary Club. Papers of the Manchester Literary Club. Vol. 21. Manchester: John Heywood. (Cross-posted in another thread) 4 Feb., 1895, at one of the weekly meetings of the Manchester Literary Club, J.B. Shaw presented a paper on chanties. It was accompanied by performances, with piano accompaniment. Two sentences are verbatim copy of Alden's 1882 article, so that was used as a source on background. If they had piano accompaniment, there is a good chance they were using Davis & Tozer's Third Edition, published in the early 1890s, as it was the only source then with accompaniment. However, they *might* have made their own accompaniment. The brief reads as follows. // Sailors' Chanties. Mr. J. B. Shaw contributed the principal paper. It dealt with Sailors' Chanties and other Sea Songs, and was illustrated by the singing of a number of these "chanties" and songs by Messrs. Derby, Butterworth, Dinsmore, Edmeston, Mercer, and Wilcock, who were accompanied on the piano by Mr. W. Noel Johnson. The reader said that "Sailors' Chanties" belonged to a time now no more. The typical "Jack " of the pre-propeller age has utterly vanished, has passed into the dusty domain of the archaeologist, and his real habits and customs will soon be forgotten. We should therefore make an effort to preserve the memory of his songs before the last man who heard them and can give testimony in regard to them is gone. The "Chanty-man," the chorister of the old packet ship, has left no successors. In the place of rousing "pulling songs" we now hear the rattle of the steam-winch, and the steamwinch or pump give us the rattle of cog-wheels or the hiss of steam instead of the wild choruses of other days. Sailors' songs might be divided into two classes, pulling songs and windlass songs. The former were used merely to aid the men when pulling on a rope, to pull at the same precise instant. The latter were intended to beguile the men while getting up the anchor or working the pumps into temporary forgetfulness of their prosaic labour. These songs are worth studying from various points of view. Musically they are most valuable, as showing how much they are characteristic of their subject, vocationally as proving the amount of impetus or encouragement needed by the singer in his work, and poetically by making known the feelings which animate a sailor's breast with regard to his home, his wife, his captain, and all that concerns him. In the conversation which followed the reading of the paper, Messrs. Milner, Kay, Crosland, Chrystal, and Newton took part. // |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Charley Noble Date: 30 Sep 11 - 09:35 PM Nice to see King recognized. I've only seen reviews of his work, which I think I've mentioned. Cicely Fox Smith was quite aware of the shanty/chantey/chanty revival, warts and all, in the 1920s, and composed a scathing rant about the worst of it. Smith also contributed to one of the early radio shows in the 1930s, Uncle Mac's Children's Hour, narrated by Derek McCulloch (1897-1967), which featured some of her nautical short stories. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Gibb Sahib Date: 15 Jan 22 - 03:09 AM The Henry Burr 1917 "Shenandoah" recording is not the chanty. https://adp.library.ucsb.edu/index.php/matrix/detail/2000024880/77098-Shenandoah |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Gibb Sahib Date: 15 Jan 22 - 03:16 AM The 1925 John Goss Sea Shanties recordings are now available (since 2018) for handy, on-line listening. https://archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22John+Goss+and+the+Cathedral+Ma I'm struck by how Bert Lloyd's mannerisms sound similar (at least to me) to those of Goss. See for example the "Haul Away Joe" record. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 15 Jan 22 - 09:56 PM Lighter: I can't imagine anybody considering movie music a "commercial recording" until the days (in the '50s, I believe) when soundtracks of movie musicals began appearing on discs. Bob: To clarify: I was curious about recordings of performances made specifically for sale to the general public rather than issues of 'field recordings' such as the early Library of Congress sets. Was there was ever much of a cinema shanty genre? Just for discography's sake, “Talkies” came after silent film. If the score wasn't a live orchestra or monstrous theater organ; it was a phonograph. Moses Asch (Folkways) got his start wiring older New York venues for sound. Dubbed bootleg 78rpm Soviet movie scores were Stinson Trading Co.'s stock in trade until the Asch era. Also, studio, field or on location, most anything recorded before that 1950's long play vinyl will be unnaturally short in duration. The modern pausarius is always just off stage with his three minute stopwatch. Calypso road marches; Gregorian chants; pump shanties; opera & decent jazz are all off the program. |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 15 Jan 22 - 10:31 PM Internet popularity poll. As usual, more/most of the plain “shanty” returns are off topic. The plural “shanties” is the other way around but still a smaller return. archive.org metadata, audio Shanty: 1,071 Shanties: 198 Sea shanty: 148 Sea shanties: 119 Chanty: 52 Chantey: 35 Sea chanty: 15 Sea chantey: 13 Sea chanties: 13 |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 15 Jan 22 - 10:53 PM Forewarned: Anybody with internet access can choose any tag for any release. The dates are always suspect. Discogs Sea Shanties Style Overview Note: The description page has been blank since it went up. Shanty Releases: 5,636 Artists: 319 Labels: 67 Shanties Releases: 2,437 Artists: 83 Labels: 6 Sea shanties Releases: 2,306 Artists: 51 Labels: 5 Sea shanty Releases: 1,045 Artists: 21 Labels: 4 Chanty Releases: 429 Artists: 33 Labels: 7 Chantey Releases: 203 Artists: 15 Labels: 3 Sea chanty Releases: 129 Artists: 2 Labels: 1 Sea chantey Releases: 107 Artists: 9 Labels: 0 Sea chanties Releases: 43 Artists: 1 Labels: 0 |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 15 Jan 22 - 10:58 PM Peerless Quartette - Medley of Sea Chanties Peerless Quartette, M. Smith; Columbia, A1559, 1914 Sally Brown Blow the Man Down Whiskey for My Johnny Away for Rio |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: RTim Date: 15 Jan 22 - 11:03 PM I don't wish to start a "war", and I am sorry if anyone is upset by what I say - But Who is "Phil d'Conch"..?? Is he real, or an Avatar - does he add anything to this or any debate about Sea Music or Chanties...? Most of his postings seem elite and trying to be cleverer than anyone else, and I frankly find most of his postings Boring! I wonder...I wonder.... Tim Radford |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 16 Jan 22 - 02:20 AM Tim: Not a big Peerless Quartet fan I take it? No offence taken. No need to worry or apologize. I've heard it all before. In fact: "Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general From: RTim Date: 24 Mar 20 - 10:52 PM I am increasingly bemused by this thread.....I am not sure whose benefit it is for? It has Nothing to do with Maritime music for the ordinary person, and just seems to be a vehicle to prove that the main correspondent is cleverer than anyone else..!! Tim Radford (a poor old 'ampshire boy....)" I admire (y)our consistency. Kaizo! |
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Subject: RE: Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings From: Gibb Sahib Date: 23 Jan 22 - 03:52 AM Happy to discover that the YouTube channel by the name of videocurios has posted 3 out of 4 of the 1905 Minster Singers recordings. (Unless the 4th is there but I can't find it!) The channel also has numerous other original discs of early commercial chanties recordings. Search the channel for "sea shanties." Here is the first in the Minster Singers set, (mis)labeled as "The Capstan Bar." So-called "The Capstan Bar" by Minster Singers, 1905 I have confirmed that all of the Minster Singers records are verbatim performances of the scores in the Bradford and Fagge _Old Sea Chanties_ collection (copyright 1904). From this, it's easy to see that the item labeled on disc as "The Capstan Bar" is actually the item in Bradford and Fagge labeled as "Haul On the Bowlin'"—which itself would be more conventionally labeled as "Haul Away Joe." Bradford and Fagge's collection contains 8 songs, but the Minster Singers only recorded 7 of them. That means the actual "Capstan Bar" item was omitted from the recordings. My curiosity is piqued since "The Capstan Bar" stands out, in the Bradford collection, as an item of dubious pedigree. Not about to search through everything right now, but if memory serves, I don't remember "The Capstan Bar" turning up elsewhere in the primary source record of chanties and I've suspected Bradford/Fagge had some hand in introducing this not-so-traditional song. No clue why the Minster Singers would not have recorded an even 8 songs (i.e. by including "The Capstan Bar") instead of filling up one whole record with the boring ["Haul Away Joe"]. But it's fun to speculate that maybe someone at the time sniffed out a whiff of phoniness in "The Capstan Bar." The Peerless Quartet 1914 (above) also owes much to Bradford and Fagge's arrangements, but they are not verbatim. |
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