Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 06:55 AM

I have actually seen a list (somewhere) of the judges for the awards. Nearly all BBC people. Fair enough I think, It's their gig after all! They are funding it. And, a public vote would be a nightmare to organise, and would any of the artists be in the town (or indeed the country) on the day of the ceremony?
It's not an event that can be organised on the day. It takes months.
Of course, I didn't agree with some of the awards, and did others. It has always been that way. I have no problem with the way it works. Of course, there are plenty of artists I would have like to have seen, but, it's got to be a "Radio 2 Friendly" event. Hence Donovan.....
All in all, a nice mix of winners. And it's still great publicity. Just because your favourite artist didn't win or wasn't nominated, doesn't mean anything...I didn't win either! Am I Bovvered?

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 07:01 AM

The BBC run many programmes FILLED with public votes, Ralph, and those votes are counted within hours. There's no problem with it at all. The public vote was removed from the Folk Awards for one reason and that was because a band who, at the time, was NOT accepted by The Folk Establishment, won.

'Best Live Act' was the public vote subject.

After Show of Hands won this, Smooth Ops changed it to 'Best Dance Band' I believe, if my memory serves me correctly....and then the public vote disappeared all together.

Bellowhead won 'Best Live Act' the following year, again, as I recall, despite having only appeared live about 3 or 4 times that year. The public were not allowed to vote for Best Live Act at that time, nor have they been allowed to since, despite being the ones who pay the money to see the performers perform....

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 07:14 AM

Sorry Lizzie....
Read my post again. It takes months to get artists to be available for the gig...If they are not in town, then they can't perform, obviously...
As an example. Sidmouth Festival last year put on a concert for Nic Jones. Organised by James Fagan. Various artists doing their take on Nics arrangements (Nic was there)
I won't list all the artists, but Nancy and James, Chris Wood, Bandoggs, Martin Simpson, Faustus, Sam Carter, etc etc etc etc...All turned up because, luckily they were all at the festival anyway.
There is a plan to do a similar event in London this spring. The point I'm making is that it can't possibly be the same line-up. It will no doubt be great, but different.
In the same way, you can't throw a gig like the Folk Awards together on the day....It takes months....What would happen if SOH or Reg Meuross were playing a gig in Inverness the night before???
Just be aware that months of work go into the Award ceremony.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 07:22 AM

Near instant public phone in voting systems and fellow artists accepting awards on behalf of absent winners
seems to be the norm on many other televised showbiz 'popularity' contests, innit...

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Alex
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 07:28 AM

All a public vote ever proves is which artist has the best mechanism in place to motivate its fan base to vote. Didn't Robbie Williams or someone win best album of all time in a public vote on Radio 1? Mumford & Sons would win a public vote hands down in the folk awards and I don't think anybody would feel they are representative of the music. I think there are something like 130 people who cast their votes in the various categories, all representing different strands of the folk industry with access to a wider pool of music than is readily available to most people and are therefore better placed to introduce the broader public to different music, as we see from Ewan MacLennan's well-deserved Horizon award. Far from being the same old, same old, the likes of Heidi Talbot, Fiddlers Bid, Coope, Boyes & Simpson, Breabach, Fisherman's Friends, Laura Marling, Emily Portman, The Levellers, Fay Hield and Andy Irvine have never been nominated before. Apart from personal taste and prejudice, it would be hard to argue against the merits of Bellowhead as best band after the year they've had or that Hollow Point is the best song of the year or that Gift is the best album of the year.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 07:36 AM

Point of clarification: the Nic Jones gig was organised by Sidmouth FolkWeek, not by James Fagan. James was brought on board about 6 months into the planning for the event to help. But the event was actually Derek Schofield's idea, and the event at South Bank Centre in May is a SFW production.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 07:58 AM

"All a public vote ever proves is which artist has the best mechanism in place to motivate its fan base to vote."

conversely

all a panel of industry experts vote may ever prove is which artist has the best & most effective professional PR team
lobbying on its behalf.. apparently..


either way, showbiz awards contests are complete bollocks when all's said and done..

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 08:12 AM

Hi Guest. I know that Sidmouth Fest and Derek came up with the idea of the NJ gig...But, James had the poisoned chalice of "herding Cats" on the day!
And it went amazingly well, considering the time constraints!
Looking forward to the South Bank re-enactment. I wonder who will be available to play this time?

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Alex
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 08:16 AM

Well yeah, all awards are complete bollocks, of course they are, but these awards have played a key role in promoting the music to a wider public and have certainly given a major boost to the career of everybody who's ever won one.
Smooth Ops argument for not publishing the names of the 130 or so people who vote for these awards is to protect them from being lobbied/badgered/bribed by these effective professional PR teams of which you speak.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 08:32 AM

yeah but...

as if the premium PR lobbyists can't earn their fat fees
by targeting who the '130 or so people' are most likely to be.. !!!???

As to the value of awards shows..

I once won a family sized packet of crisps at a holiday camp talent show
but I didn't let the success go to my head..

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 08:37 AM

Sidmouth also booked the majority of participating artists pretty much before James was involved. But he did a great job of pulling together the playlist and the artists on the day, as you say.

The event at SOuthBank is part of a weekend curated by Stewart Lee as part of their Festival of Britain celebrations. They got in touch with Sidmouth and asked the festival to reprise the event, which we were very happy to do. Some of the original artists are returning, and there are some new big names as well. It's a great lineup, which will be announced very soon as part of the Stewart Lee weekend, which is when the tickets will also go on sale.

Joan (from my phone)

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 08:51 AM

Joanie. That was the point I was making. The success of the Nic Jones concert was due in no small part, to the fact that nearly all of the artists were already appearing at the festival...(I think that maybe one came down especially to play at the gig, for the life of me I can't remember who!)
I would certainly not deny that it was you and Derek who came up with the concept thouhg.....Mmmmm Wonder what you're planning for this year!
Will have to be good to top that one! Lol!
Looking forward to the South Bank gig as well.
Ralphie

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 08:58 AM

Punkfolkrocker, that's one of the reasons that's been cited for keeping the list of judges relatively quiet. I'm not actually aware of much in the way of overt lobbying, and if anything, in my experience it is frowned upon.

I don't know what list Ralph has seen, but most of the people I know who are judges don't work for the BBC. They are event programmers and critics. They are largely people who attend maybe a dozen or more festivals a year and maybe listen to 100+ CDs, which might be one of the reasons the BBC uses a panel of judges rather than a public vote. Perhaps they feel that the average person doesn't get quite as much exposure to music. I also know several people who are regularly on the panel, yet never get invited to the awards. Dunno what that actually proves, but I just thought I'd chuck it in.

Joan (from my phone)

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Graham Bradshaw
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 09:15 AM

Whether you like them or not, I think it is self-evident that the Folk Awards serve a useful purpose in marketing 'folk' to a wider audience, but even more to folk's own audience. Many an upandcoming artist has received a leg-up from being nominated, and this in turn gets them onto the festival organisers radar. Those that win no doubt can hike their performance fees as well(cynic that I am)!

There has been an allegation on this thread that they are 'rigged' and in some way corrupt. That is not my understanding, and I believe there is a statement of how it works on the SmoothOps website (or maybe the BBC).

To save you the trouble of looking, here is a potted version.

There is a panel of folk's movers and shakers (something over 100 in number I believe). These are invited to take part, and it's probably not that difficult to guess who some of them are - journalists, radio presenters, festival organisers, record company people etc. The names are not published for reasons already stated, ie to prevent lobbying. There is some rotation of members I believe - although I know several who have been on it for years, I also know of at least one who was asked for the first time this year.

The panel members are sent a questionnaire showing the categories, and are asked to nominate 3 names per category. These are then all added up and the ones with most nominations get on the short list of 4 per category. If enough panel members nominate somebody obscure, they will get in the short list.

The same panel members are then given the short list and asked to vote on it.

The only thing you could argue that was wrong about this is that, statistically, the already well-known are likely to get a dispropotionate number of votes. It's all about getting on the short list.

So, why is it that various outsiders have featured in the nominations over the years, including some who have won? Well, I put this down to many of the panel members being just as contrary as the people who post on this forum - they are fed up with the same old same old and think, "Let's give old so-and-so a chance this year".

I can't say any of it keeps me awake at night with excitement, but it is no more cringeworthy than most other Awards shindigs - what about Ricky Gervais's recent efforts, and have you seen the Country Music ones?!

And before you ask, no, I'm not on the panel!

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 09:33 AM

I think Bellowhead deserve all the praise heaped upon them. They are a great band.
But back to the question of voting. Why not invite votes from those who review new CDs in the music press? They get great exposure to new music. There are plenty of them out there and they have a much wider knowledge of what is being performed than most programme producers. I realise Joan has suggested music critics as panellists - perhaps we are talking about the same group of people?
I do think that the whole "folk" thing on the media is rather narrow in its scope. It has become a great deal narrower since Verity Sharp left Late Junction and Mick Peat's folk show was axed.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 10:36 AM

Just clarifying Graham's post and helping to explain Ralph's for Joan's benefit.

There are two groups - a large panel (130+ as described by Graham, names withheld), and a small committee (less than a dozen, mainly BBC suits, named).

The panel vote on the open awards, in the manner Graham explains, and the committee vet the panel process, and chose the closed awards.

The panel stage is very flabby. Graham's probably right about people making random choices (panellists have told me that often they haven't got a clue who to vote for), and the occasional anomalies can be explained by the fact that the full list of nominees runs to many hundreds, so very few people get into double figures. Best Artist could be up there with as few as a dozen votes out of 130 (The White Hare only got 8) - and there are scores of un-nominated runners up (I've even been one myself - which just goes to show how flat and wide the pancake is). Smoops say this guarantees a good wide trawl, but I think the cone needs to be sharpened somehow, because the figures would look a bit silly if they were announced along with the winners.

It's been suggested that artist managements might do back-scratching deals, but it's probably not worth their trouble, so I doubt there's much of it, if any.

I would guess (not because I know, but because it would be sensible) that the committee would choose between any tied nominations. Whether any other titivating of the panel awards takes place at the vetting stage is anyone's guess. I've suggested that the committee should publicly claim a right to veto anyone who's won recently, or who has been accidentally nominated in the wrong category (duo/group for example).

The committee awards are then to ensure a balanced, successful event.

You can apply to be in the panel, and it does contain a lot of reviewers. But none who are also artists - because we're excluded. (An agents may no longer vote for their own artists).

A bigger panel with narrower entry qualifications would be an improvement, as would a smaller mercury-style panel.

A fully public vote would probably return Mumford and Sons for Best Act every year along with a lot of young singer-songers who no-one here has ever heard of.

Tom

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 11:49 AM

Is there any evidence to back up the claim that the public vote was stopped because the award organisers didn't approve of the winner? If there is, the people who make this assertion should really back up their allegations with evidence. If there is no evidence, then it amounts to no more than pure speculation and conspiracy-theory-mongering and its not very helpful to keep repeatly making such a claim year after year.

The Radio Two Folk Awards does a very good job of bringing Radio Two-friendly folk music to a Radio Two audience. It even manages to sneak in some stuff that is well beyound the parameters of what Radio Two would usually feature. Personally, though, I'm looking forward to the Six Music Folk Awards. ;-)

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 12:42 PM

Chris Wood's award made it onto the Radio 4 news that night. QED

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 08:04 PM

it has been said several times on this thread and othes that the R2 folk awards are bringing Folk Music to a wider audience, Yes they are how ever on the basis of the Live acts (which i enjoyed) I would have had the radio at work taken off me by my R1/Galaxy radio listening staff. I do tend to have to the same issue on a Wednesday night when MH plays alot of ballads and long traditional songs, I get the wtf are we listening too now. However when MH plays the more up beat stuff I get "well this is alright " kind of comments

So do Smooth Ops /Radio 2 /Folk awards really do any thing to bring Folk Music to the wider audience

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 09:34 PM

So if the awards are 'judged' by such a small panel (130+ according to a previous post) perhaps the Bounty Hounds should be even more proud of the fact that we've had over 6 times more plays than Bellowhead on the Sweeps Festival Myspace page!

John

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 11:13 AM

I think Tom and Graham some it up admirably.

There have been other public votes apart form the one in 2004 - the following year for example Whapweasel were chosen by public vote.

I think the BBC/Smooth Ops do their best to see that the event is representative of the current scene/festival bookings/record sales/folk club bookings/radio plays/that is the complex "folk scene" as we know it. It is not as easy as making it a public vote. Truly it isn't.

And I have all Bellowhead's records and none of those done by the Bounty Hounds - which of course applies to many people and why I might click on the myspace which I haven't.

I have explained to Lizzie that she should get out there. Run a folk club/get involved with your local community radio station and set up your own programme.

Then you could play whatever records you liked. And I have offered before about how to put a radio show together, what you need and how to structure it.

Or of course you can sit and whinge on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 02:55 PM

Folkiedave, Just a flippant comment, I'm not deluding myself, I know the reason is that visitors to that site are looking to find out about the bands they have not heard of. (We are working on that though) However, still a nice little fact for us to quote, and can't miss an opportunity for gratuitious self promotion.

If a little traditionally based folk/rock is your taste, go have a listen. www.bountyhounds.co.uk

John

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 03:23 PM

Here you go, John...
The Bounty Hounds

You make fine music, that's for sure... :0)

I can't seem to get your Myspace page to work though...

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 03:28 PM

"...There have been other public votes apart form the one in 2004 - the following year for example Whapweasel were chosen by public vote..."


They stopped the Best Live Act from being the one the public voted for because a band they didn't want to win, won.

They then went on to have a public vote for Best Dance Band, I believe, knowing, of course, that the band they didn't want to win couldn't get voted for that one, because....they're not a dance band.

The public vote has never again been allowed to be for Best Live Act, nor will it, because.....the very band they don't want to win, will do so, instead of the band the 'judges' continue to vote for, year upon year......

I think it's called 'favouritism'....and it's only permitted if Smooth Ops and The Folk Mafia so wish it...

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 05:10 PM

Thanks for the kind words and the link, Lizzie. Just had a look at our myspace page, seems to be working here, but lots of strange things happening with myspace at the moment!

John

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 05:24 PM

Got you!

The Bounty Hounds - Myspace page


My feet are tapping, along with my fingers, to The Bonny Ship, the Diamond, as I'm writing this... :0)

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: raymond greenoaken
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 05:37 PM

Out from the shadows – for what it's worth, ladies and gents, I'm on the folk awards panel. Don't hold it against me: I never asked to be on, and I usually don't vote (often I'm unfamiliar with the nominees, and I'm frankly not a fan of competitions). But I still get the call, year on year. I suspect I'm on because I publish a folk magazine here in Yorkshire, which would suggest that the panel is probably composed of activists and folk professionals – organisers, journalists, and so on.

I did vote for Bellowhead once...

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 04:12 AM

They stopped the Best Live Act from being the one the public voted for because a band they didn't want to win, won.

Surprising then that Show of Hands won two awards last year.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,cardboard cutout
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 03:33 PM

"I never asked to be on, and I usually don't vote (often I'm unfamiliar with the nominees)" (from 2 posts ago.)

Well shame on you for not bothering to keep abreast of folk music nationally, then.

It must be quite a magazine! Tell me, had you heard of anybody other than Bellowhead?

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Folkiedave
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 03:57 AM

The idea that someone can keep abreast of what's happening nationally I find unfair to say the least.

I find it hard to keep up with what's happening within thirty miles of Sheffield. The thing that helps me is Raymond's magazine.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,cardboard cutout
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 12:34 PM

Fair comment, and I don't know Raymond or his magazine - and don't intend to cause offence.

However, the nominees for the various awards were nearly all well known.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 01:52 PM

lets think positive.

You DO see some bloody good bands.

Perhaps they need to initiate another award, The Band that's not Perhaps Quite as Good as Bellowhead But They Deserve Some Recognition Award.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: raymond greenoaken
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 01:49 PM

Yes, I'm suitably shamefaced – at not having encountered Ewan McLennan, for instance. Must keep up...

But the bottom line for me is, competitions encourage the notion that music making is a race to the finishing line. Sport, not art. I like both, but prefer not to confuse one with the other.

pip pip!