BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?

Subject: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 08:41 AM

Charles Portis's fine Western novel True Grit [1968] has long been a favourite book of mine. I also enjoyed, though with reservations, the 1969 Hathaway film with John Wayne, Kim Darby and Glen Campbell in the leading parts of US Marshall Reuben ('Rooster') Cogburn, 14 year old Mattie Ross, and Texas Ranger LaBoeuf [pronounced LaBeef].

The recent version by the Coen Brothers, starring Jeff Bridges, Hailee Steinfeld and Matt Damon in those parts, has been urged on all sides to be a much better, far more faithful, rendering of the original novel, has won several awards, and is up for several Oscars. The only one won by the earlier film, I think I am right in saying, was Best Actor for Wayne.

I have to say that in many ways, & quite against the current critical trend, I preferred the earlier version. In particular, Wayne's laid-back Cogburn was, imo, much to be preferred to Bridges' thoroughly OTT piece of overacting; and Darby's was a far superior performance to Steinfeld's one-note, not always clearly articulated, never-a-hair-out-of-place, always perfectly made-up Mattie ~~ and talking of hair, I have never known a girl who wore her hair plaited [=US braided] who didn't undo it at night and replait it next morning: Steinfeld's permanent plaits jarred with me [see my OPd ongoing thread as to whether small errors in books, films &c, matter]. I know Darby was 22 and Steinfeld really is 14, but it's the finished product that counts, isn't it?

And, though the later version was nearer to the book in some ways, it missed several opportunities present in the book. Some comic business could be got out of Mattie's landlady's irritatingly officious habit of telling all the other guests of Mattie's business, for instance, & from Rooster's drunken trial & execution of a rat, but these were completely absent from the film. And it departed from the original in some other ways that the earlier version didn't ~~ the book keeps all three protagonists together practically the entire time, e.g., while the later version keeps having LaBoeuf going off in a huff by himself. His first meeting with Mattie is entirely different also. And the business with the rattlesnakes in the pit was far scarier, & Rooster's ride against 4 opponents with reins between teeth & pistol in each hand much better directed, in the first version. And this new film misses such incidents from the book, important both dramatically & morally, as Lucky Ned Pepper's opportunistic betrayal of the romantic young outlaw who is trying to help him escape.

Enough comparisons here to be going on with. How do others rate the two versions?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: kendall
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 10:00 AM

I liked the original so much I have no desire to see the remake.

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 10:19 AM

As to "missing several opportunities present in the book", I don't see that that's a valid criticism.

Making a movie from a book is always a problem, because tempo of action and running time are always problems. From the context of your post, it sounds as if the previous film also didn't take advantage of those matters. If so, that sounds as if that production team made the same judgment to leave them out.

Telling a story in a novel and telling more or less the same story in a film are different processes, to be judged by different criteria.

You are, of course, entitled to your preferences; no problem there.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 10:33 AM

Quite, Uncle Dave. I agree with many of your points. It's just that the pre-publicity &c have laid such stress on the fidelity of the new version to the novel, in comparison with the earlier version, as a big selling point. But, as I point out, it isn't that faithful, and at many points wilfully departs from it; and several times in ways where the previous version remained much nearer to Portis's narrative.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 11:10 AM

I understand that you would want it to be similar to the original. But I would want much more than that from the Cohen Brothers. I would want to see their unique artistic vision in the film.

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 11:37 AM

What really bothered me was that there were no chimps in the new film. Or the old one, for that matter, although John Wayne is vaguely gorilla-like in some respects. Then too, so is Jeff Bridges. Hmmm....

I gotta think some more about this.

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 11:44 AM

I never watched the original because John Wayne was in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 11:51 AM

The Dude abides.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 01:59 PM

At music the other night a friend said he had just seen the new version- and he liked the original much better. He said the second one was good and if he hadn't seen the first one he'd have been happy with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: Rog Peek
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 02:11 PM

I am of the same opinion as Uncle Daveo

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: DougR
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 04:01 PM

Funny, I thought Wayne, who I usually enjoyed in his films, really over-acted in the first version, and Glen Campbell was terrible. Haven't seen the new one.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: kendall
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 04:32 PM

I thought it was Marion Morrison's best film ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: pdq
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 05:31 PM

John Wayne probably did over act in True Grit but that's what the director and the public seemed to want. He got his Best Actor award for it.

Was Glen Campbell really that bad or were people expecting something else from him? I think he was the top selling recording artist that year.

Wayne liked to have singers as guest stars, the list includes Frank Sinatra, Glen Campbell, Dean Martin, Ricky Nelson, Howard Keel, Scatman Carrouthers and even Fabian and Frankie Avalon.

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 05:36 PM

If it's grit that one is lookin' for I would guess that the remake out-grits John Wayne and Glen Campbell...

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: J-boy
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 01:49 AM

I had a crush on Kim Darby before I even knew what a crush was. I'm lucky that Tami looks much like her.

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: 3refs
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 07:36 AM

First, I vote for the origional!
I haven't seen the new version, but probably will one day. I like Jeff Bridges(loved his Dad in "Seahunt", but not much for Ron Ely)
I'm not much of a fan of remakes. Continuations, most times yes, but remakes are not for me!
Jack Ryan, the C.I.A. Analyst was played by three different actors in three completely different movies. Not a problem for me! Liked em all!
I think they should have made a new version. Rooster pissed off those Texicans, when he collected his bounty, and they've come north for revenge. Rooster gets them all but ends up in that little patch of ground Mattie had reserved for him!
When they do bury Rooster make sure they throw Warren Oates in first!

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: mauvepink
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 08:16 AM

Not seen the new one. I have seen the trailers and my mind is made up already

There is only one true True Grit and it has John Wayne in it.

I am not saying that when the new version hits TV I will not watch it but I doubt even now I will enjoy it. I like Bridges (his best for me was Starman) but I doubt he is up to John Wayne's standard. I have yet to see any remake of a film that is anywhere near as good as the original version. I recently watched The Day the Earth Stood Still. It's bothing like the original at all. Some films do not deserve to wear the name of the original in my opinion. The Railway Children got close but is still not as good as the original.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 08:30 AM

Makes you wonder when some incompetent thinks he can improve on High Noon with Gary Cooper.

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 08:48 AM

I saw the new True Grit and thought it was a terrific movie. Was especially impressed by the young girl. So then, the old True Grit (which I'd never seen) came by on the TV and I tried to watch it, unsuccessfully. I found the young girl too stilted and stylized, just couldn't get into it, and I've never been a fan of John Wayne. Of course, I didn't see the whole thing and can't give it a fair appraisal without the full experience.

Never read the book, so can't compare movie vs book content or intent. But the Coen Brothers make fascinating films, in my opinion, and this new version is definitely worth seeing.

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 10:13 AM

No chimps.......was that because the episode where they went to the zoo didn't make the final cut.? I don't know how these people expect to be taken seriously.

I thought that bit where Mattie had her photograph yaken with a smake and it crapped all over her was essential to the plot, because it explained why she was frightened to fall down the pit AND it explained why she decided to wear her hair in plaits.

call me old fashioned , but I think Glen Campbell should have spanked her naked bottom. It would have been more historically accurate and made better cinema.

Also skipped over was the Broke back Mountain romance between Robert Duval and John wayne. This was really the story of a crime passionel.

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 11:28 AM

with respect to film adaptations of fiction and 'originals' v's 'remakes' in film, imo it's worth noting that often *remakes* of adaptations do indeed appear to be weak imitations of the original film. However in this instance, the coen brothers have not attempted a remake of the john wayne film, but a fully independent adaptation of the original 'true grit' novel. Of course such a project was bound to inspire comparison to the wayne product, yet as the contemporary western genre in film is already an entirely different beast to the traditional 'cowboys and indians' fare -which is a good thing in my mind- it would perhaps be more interesting to compare this 'true grit' to other contemporary westerns, rather than to the wayne version of the same novel, which as the coen brothers have remarked themselves, it owes no artisic allegiance?

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 12:04 PM

But, Lively ~~ see my OP ~~ it is not a very faithful adaptation of Portis' book at that ~ in several ways the earlier version was nearer to what Portis wrote.

Re Al's intriguing suggestion of its being made into a bare-bottom spanking film; in the book he switches her on the calf of her leg, as it so happens. Still, Al, if that is what you are after I believe there are websites which cater for such outré interests!

As to 'originals' & 'remakes' ~ the most famous version of a film is not always the original 'make': the 1931 James Whale Frankenstein with Boris Karloff, for example, followed several earlier, silent, versions of Mary Shelley's novel; &, as to fidelity to the original, there was more of the plot of Shelley's original novel in Bride Of Frankenstein, 1934, second in Whale's series, than in the first one.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: DougR
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 01:21 PM

Kendall: respectfully disagree. I think Marion Morrison's best roll was "The Quiet Man."

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: CET
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 02:35 PM

I've seen and enjoyed both versions and there's no doubt (for me) which comes out on top - the new one. Jeff Bridges' acting isn't OTT, it's just that he has so much more in his artistic repertoire than John Wayne did. I also didn't see Hailee Steinfeld as a one note performance. If anything, I found her much more believable as a late nineteenth century adolescent female than Kim Darby. As for her braids, if there were any scenes showing her in bed with her hair in braids they haven't registered with me. Perhaps when they are all out on the trail it was less believable that she would keep her hair perfectly braided, but the point is not important enough to detract from her performance.

I haven't read the book, so can't comment on how faithful either film is to what Charles Portis wrote.

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 05:36 PM

I have vague memories of various commentators saying, when John Wayne got his Oscar, that it wasn't so much for his performance as Rooster Cogburn, but more a "life-time achievement award".

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 06:12 PM

That may be so, but it was not for "The Conqueror." http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0049092/

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 06:59 PM

And conversely which True Grit is grittier?

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 08:29 PM

This is a little off topic……

I would say that an actor doesn't win an Oscar on his own. The director, INMO, has as much to praise as to blame when a job comes in.

John Wayne deserved Oscars for She Wore A Yellow Ribbon, Rio Grande, Fort Apache, The Quiet Man, Stage Coach, All John Ford films. Red River may be his best role and that was a Howard Hawks film. He was excellent in those roles. I can think of no one better for those parts. Possibly Sands of Iwo Jima or The Shootist deserved mention as well. True Grit is not a movie I would have given Wayne an Oscar for.

I haven't seen the New "Grit" so I can't compare Wayne to Bridges. But I'd watch True Grit 1 just to hear Rooster yell, "Fill your hand you son of a bitch!"

I cut Wayne the same amount of political slack that I allow Jane Fonda. I disagreed with Wayne's politics for the most part but he was one of the few people of note that I can recall coming out in support of Patty Hearst when she was on trial for being a terrorist.

All in all he did his job, I was entertained.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 08:42 PM

Doug, one can never say another persons opinion is wrong. The most you can say is, I have a different opinion. Now, facts is another kettle of fish. If I say the moon is blue as a fact, I am wrong and one can tell me so.

Kim Darby was a little pain in the ass. Didn't like her role at all, and Glen Campbell should have been a hair dresser.

Rooster Cogburn was a great character played by Wayne, but it's a good thing they limited Robert Duvals role, otherwise he could have buried Wayne. Opinion, nothing more.

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 09:07 PM

I saw John Wayne in dozens of movies and in all of them, including, Green Berets and the Conqueror, he always seemed to play the same straight laced Cowboy. In True Grit, he departed from that. He was more flawed and pardon the expression, grittier. I think he won the award for showing that grittier side.

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 04:42 AM

Srangely enough, i never really believed in John wayne the tough guy. I thought Kurt Russell in Tombstone, and even Kevin Costner's Wyatt earp were better at portraying that bleak violent streak which must have resided in the hearts of these men.

I believed Wayne when he was the sentimentalist - talking over his wife's grave in She wore a yellow Ribbon, and the homage to Miles Keogh. As Costner says about James Masterson - he's too affable to be a lawman. John Wayne would have got blown away getting the timing right for his one liners.

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 09:42 AM

I preferred the 'Tombstone / Wyatt Earp / Billy the Kid' Westerns more so than the usual John Wayne or Gary Cooper goody goody saint type heroes, if I had to watch any at all. John Wayne was much better when he got older and a bit more rougher around the edges. Which is why Robert Mitchum with those untrustworthy eyes probably appealed to women more!

Remakes usually turn out to be disappointing i.e. Wicker Man and Clash of the Titans although they are different kinds of movies, films in general at the moment turn out to be disappointing so I will probably give the new 'True Grit' a miss at the cinema and perhaps see it when it comes out on DVD.

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 10:32 AM

I have seen and enjoyed both movies, have not read the book so can't say which is truer in that sense.
I find it interesting that the OP mentions the hair in the new version as a problem. I feel exactly the opposite. The thing that has always bothered me the most about the original is that they are all so clean. Kim Darby and Glen Campbell in particular have clean and seemingly combed hair as they ride for days and sleep on the ground. Their clothes (and John Wayne's) don't much get soiled either.
I also feel that Jeff Bridges is a much more convincing drunk. My wife and kids had trouble understanding his slurred speech but I caught most of what he was saying.
The new version is much grittier, not a feel good movie.
But again, I like both.

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: Den
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 11:24 AM

I haven't read the book so can't comment about authenticity. I have seen both movies and enjoyed them for different reasons. I liked Wayne as Cogburn and I suppose having seen that performance first it influenced my appreciation of the character. I think Wayne edged it for his performance which I felt was truer to the craggy, washed-up drunk he was portraying. Having said that I liked Bridges interpretation too but was less convinced. I found the original Maddie extremely annoying and found myself cringing every time she was on screen. I thought Hailee Steinfeld did a much better job and made the character less of a caricature. Glen Campbell for me wasn't believable and I thought Damon did a better job. On the whole I felt the newer version was more authentic in terms of costume and dialogue and I enjoyed the end of the film much more in the sequel.

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 12:01 PM

Saw the first version by accident - it was playing with Willie Wonka and the Chocolate factory at a drive-in. Hated it but I always dislike John Wayne and most of his movies. Liked The Quiet Man and The Wreck of the Mary Dears. That was Wayne, wasn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 12:01 PM

Deare

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 12:27 PM

I also think The Quiet Man was one of Wayne's few really well acted films. He fit that part well. He also seemd to have good chemistry with Maureen O'Hara for some reason (he certainly didn't with most of his other female co-stars), and they made a really enjoyable cowboy film with a lot of comedy in it...I think it's called McClintock. And another great John Wayne movie is Red River, where he co-starred with Montgomery Clift. It's almost perfect, aside from the silly ending.

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 03:20 PM

Mary Deare = Gary Cooper and Charlton Heston and a very young Richard Harris.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: GUEST,John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 10:51 PM

Most, if not all film folk will tell you that books and films are two different media, often much to the chagrin of the original author. Books are most generally individual efforts (with the guidance of editors), while film is a collaborative effort with the vision of the director usually predominant.

Sometimes a film follows the book quite closely; the westerns WARLOCK and THE OX-BOW INCIDENT are exemplars.

But how closely do films like IN OLD ARIZONA or EAST OF EDEN follow the original. In the first case, the scenario follows the plot quite well, except the protagonist, The Cisco Kid is changed in the movie from O. Henry's Gringo (Caucasian) badman to a Mexican badman, and the Kid has remained Mexican ever since...and became a good guy in the process. Perhaps the creators of In Old Arizona, felt that since the main character had a Mexican sounding nickname, he ought be portrayed that way..

In the Elia Kazan film of Steinbeck's novel, the changes were even more stark. The film only covers the last third of the generational story. The Bible thumping, cold, autocratic father played on film by Raymond Massey, in the book is actually a rather sympathetic, loving father. But Kazan wanted to tell a somewhat different story than Steinbeck wrote. Both are powerful, but they are not the same. The TV mini-series was closer to the scope of EAST OF EDEN, but not nearly as compelling screen entertainment, in my opinion.

So it all boils down to this, I think. One needs to accept each form of media on it's own merits. I believe it doesn't matter whether the Wayne or the Bridges TRUE GRIT is truer to the source novel, but which is better as a movie on its own merits. I have no opinion on that, as I haven't seen Beau's brother Jeff's version.

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 08:58 AM

A mate of mine saw it last night and reckoned it was alright.

Apparently the spanking scene still lacks ooomf! One senses that if only Glen Campbell had seen the alabaster orbs of Matty's little bum take on an attractive roseate hue, and they'd both said to hell with all this western rubbish, shall we get down to what really matters.... a different film would have emerged.

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: goatfell
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 11:37 AM

john wayne version

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 12:22 PM

I'm holding out for the Woody Allen version...

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 12:35 PM

I mean, hell, look how great...

this is!

Just think what he could do with True Grit...

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 01:16 PM

Thankyou LH! That was terrific!

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 01:21 PM

No gang of western cutthroats is tough enough to deal with "Alvie Mellish"... ;-) I tell you, Woody Allen could make THE definitive version of True Grit anytime he wanted to, and without even having to consult his analyst. I intend to write him at once and suggest that he get busy and do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 04:02 PM

I've always felt there was room for innovation in the western genre.

The Range Rider and his Young friend Dick West - I'd love to make a film called 'Dicks Out in Dodge City'.

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 21 Feb 11 - 04:04 PM

"I'd love to make a film called 'Dicks Out in Dodge City'."

Go for it!

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 22 Feb 11 - 05:27 AM

Well John, my first feeling about 'Dicks Out in Dodge City' is that it should be a musical - something on the lines of 'oklahoma'.

Obviously big production song and dance number to start. Orchestra and chorus. Girls in light gingham dresses. men dressed as cowboys, but with ENORMOUS APPENDAGES.

Its dicks out! in Dodge City
The flashingest town in the west
Dicks out! in Dodge City
Its fun to see which man is best

Obviously we can keep that number going for about twenty minutes with various set pieces

Aunt Ella: What do you call that sorta dancin' young man? ooof! 00f!
Big willy: somethin' I learned over in Kansas city, Aunt Ella. Its called lapdancing......

Who will take young Lori to the 'Whose got the biggest willy competition?'

Will the characters from Gunsmoke make an appearance? When all is revealed, what malformation of Chester's tackle was making him limp?

Its all abit of a blur after that.

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 22 Feb 11 - 05:46 AM

Mind you, I keep asking myself....is it really folk music?

Subject: RE: BS: Which 'True Grit' is truer?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Feb 11 - 06:24 AM

I like to be entertained by what I see on the big screen at the time and have no wish to compare with original versions. I thought the remake was an excellent film.