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BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go

mauvepink 13 Feb 11 - 10:15 AM
saulgoldie 13 Feb 11 - 10:48 AM
gnu 13 Feb 11 - 10:53 AM
mauvepink 13 Feb 11 - 11:10 AM
DMcG 13 Feb 11 - 11:24 AM
saulgoldie 13 Feb 11 - 11:49 AM
mauvepink 13 Feb 11 - 11:51 AM
DMcG 13 Feb 11 - 12:15 PM
Penny S. 13 Feb 11 - 12:57 PM
DMcG 13 Feb 11 - 01:13 PM
DMcG 13 Feb 11 - 01:17 PM
GUEST,Jon 13 Feb 11 - 01:18 PM
MGM·Lion 13 Feb 11 - 01:23 PM
Bill D 13 Feb 11 - 01:31 PM
DMcG 13 Feb 11 - 01:47 PM
GUEST,Jon 13 Feb 11 - 01:48 PM
gnu 13 Feb 11 - 01:50 PM
MGM·Lion 13 Feb 11 - 02:10 PM
artbrooks 13 Feb 11 - 02:10 PM
pdq 13 Feb 11 - 02:51 PM
gnu 13 Feb 11 - 03:01 PM
artbrooks 13 Feb 11 - 03:02 PM
Joe Offer 13 Feb 11 - 05:43 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Feb 11 - 06:33 PM
GUEST,TIA 13 Feb 11 - 06:56 PM
Dorothy Parshall 13 Feb 11 - 07:16 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 13 Feb 11 - 07:21 PM
gnu 13 Feb 11 - 07:24 PM
Dave MacKenzie 13 Feb 11 - 08:09 PM
Bill D 13 Feb 11 - 09:29 PM
Joe Offer 14 Feb 11 - 12:55 AM
mauvepink 14 Feb 11 - 10:42 AM
GUEST,Jon 14 Feb 11 - 11:16 AM
Bill D 14 Feb 11 - 12:57 PM
Dorothy Parshall 14 Feb 11 - 01:07 PM
GUEST,Jon 14 Feb 11 - 01:16 PM
Penny S. 14 Feb 11 - 02:14 PM
mauvepink 14 Feb 11 - 02:50 PM
Dorothy Parshall 14 Feb 11 - 04:25 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 14 Feb 11 - 05:12 PM
mauvepink 14 Feb 11 - 07:49 PM
GUEST,Jon 14 Feb 11 - 08:56 PM
Bill D 14 Feb 11 - 10:52 PM
Dorothy Parshall 14 Feb 11 - 11:13 PM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 15 Feb 11 - 08:27 AM
mauvepink 15 Feb 11 - 10:51 AM
GUEST,Jon 15 Feb 11 - 11:29 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 15 Feb 11 - 12:42 PM
mauvepink 15 Feb 11 - 01:12 PM
John P 15 Feb 11 - 02:16 PM

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Subject: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: mauvepink
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 10:15 AM

Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go-ahead

About time too! This has to be a step further in the right direction. It appears that there is a lot of common sense being used too in the positive responces so far.

I think some churches, or at least some Ministers, have been giving blessings to people's unions for some time but this goes a long way further forward. I personally think it's a right step and nothing but good should come from it. As ever, the detail will be in the small print so let's see what happens. I, for one, completely welcome it.

It's not liberalism... it's fairness

Opinions?

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: saulgoldie
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 10:48 AM

Homophobia is a dinosaur on its way to extinction. It is not if, but when. Religious fanatics may choose to spin in their graves if they like. The rest of us will just sing and dance, and live.

Saul


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: gnu
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 10:53 AM

True, but there's a long way to go yet. Is it "acceptable" to Muslims? Hindu's? etc? (I really don't know. That's why I am asking.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: mauvepink
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 11:10 AM

I am not sure it is gnu but maybe someone with a better grasp on religious doctrines will be able to answer better. Personally I look forward to the day when sexuality is non issue for every religion. I do believe the day is surely coming, and it may be a long way off in some places, but each journey starts with a single step and some major milestones have been being put in place on this aspect of human life in recent times. I doubt it will happen in my lifetimes but it is surely on it's way... I truly hope.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 11:24 AM

Peter Tatchell is reported as saying that no-one is insisting that churches, etc, be obliged to marry people in their church but I see no essential difference between that and the bed-and-breakfast case where the owners refused a room to a gay couple. So it seems likely that if this law goes through within relatively short time a gay couple will insist on being married in a church. I fear that could be a major socially divisive move that does great harm to both sides.

On the wider point I'm certainly in favour of allowing gays to marry and even more in favour of allowing straight couples to have a civil partnership if they so wish. (I'd also like to see weddings be the tens-of-thousands hoo-hah with all the intensive market pressures that they are now so that we could use civil partnerships being legally equivalent but without all the expectation of that excessive spending, but I don't see that happening somehow)


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: saulgoldie
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 11:49 AM

Something that seems to me to be almost totally lost in the most discussions of flavors of marriage as we currently accept it is that marriage is BOTH a religious contract AND a civil law contract. Any religion may choose to marry whomever it chooses within the confines of that religion. The problem comes in when CIVIL authorities assign LEGAL aspects to marriage.

If the jack-booted government thugs would remove themselves from the marriage loop, then people could marry as they choose within their own faiths, and form their own civil contracts including or excluding whatever paragraphs they choose, relating to all financial issues, parenthood, health care, and so on. It is the GOVERNMENT'S MEDDLING in marriage that is the problem. Once we separate the religious from the legal, the discussion takes an entirely different shape.

Saul


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: mauvepink
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 11:51 AM

My take would be that if the law was changed to allow a full marriage in church, and it be legally recognised as that, then the church would have to abide by the law. Just like in the case had the law allowed for that hotel owner to be able to choose legally they could have. As it was trhe law was and is quite specific on what happened. In the one instance the law was in place that makes it illegal to discriminate. It sounds as if this new proposal will have legal conditions allowing a choice to be made. As I said, the detail will be in the small print and I suppose we will have to wait for that.

Nonetheless it is a step forward in the right direction.

I hope the government do not now change their minds as they have on gay men being able to have past convictions for certain acts removed from their records. They have made that process quite difficult and, in the end, it does not mean the conviction is actually removed. It seems that discarded and deleted
mean the same thing to some but on paper it won't!

Hopefully it will all sort out in the end

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 12:15 PM

My take would be that if the law was changed to allow a full marriage in church, and it be legally recognised as that, then the church would have to abide by the law

There's a blurring of language there that is crucial. The proposal is that churches that wish can ALLOW full marriages in their building. That's a totally different to the b&b case and how your sentence seems to read, that the law would be churches CANNOT REFUSE full marriages in their building. I'm only uncomfortable with the 'allow' version because I doubt if it is sustainable and will inevitable be changed in time to the 'cannot refuse' version. I think sailgoldie is absolutely right that there is a confusion between the religious and civil aspects, but also that secular society finds it difficult to accept the religious folks believe that there is more to their church building than a pretty location.

I doubt that many secularists would insist that a foolball stadium had to allow a cricket team to play on their pitch just because they wanted to: both sides have rights and sometimes the rights of the owners do take precidence of the rights of the potential users. The question is always how you balance the rights. My personal view view is that any site that wants to allow a wedding to take place should be allowed to, be that church, hotel, historic site or forest glen, but that every site should have the right to decline to hold such a service, be that church, hotel, etc, etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: Penny S.
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 12:57 PM

As things stand, I heard this morning, as gay couples can only have civil services, it is illegal to have any religious component to the service, as it is for heterosexual couples in civil services. I cannot imagine that a homosexual couple would actually want to be married in a church that believed strongly enough that it was wrong that it would object to them choosing it. Churches have refused weddings to heterosexual couples where divorce had been involved, so there is a right to refuse.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 01:13 PM

I cannot imagine that a homosexual couple would actually want to be married in a church that believed strongly enough that it was wrong that it would object to them choosing it.

Oh, I can. There are all sorts of folks, including those who would do that because it is an important point of principle. And I could imagine a protest group outside a church that refused gay weddings but allowed hetrosexual marriages. And wouldn't that make the straight couple's day? And what resentment might that trigger? As I say, handled badly this could be very divisive.

I imagine that if this or similar legislation occured some churches (such as RC) would adopt saulgoldie's approach - which is, I think, what happens in France - that the church weddings would drop all civil aspects for all weddings, so that there is registrar for example. This would be followed by a completely separate civil ceremony at the registry office


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 01:17 PM

(.. NO registrar for example ...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 01:18 PM

I cannot imagine that a homosexual couple would actually want to be married in a church that believed strongly enough that it was wrong that it would object to them choosing it.

I'd go as far as to say I can imagine a few deliberately seeking out such churches.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 01:23 PM

and even more in favour of allowing straight couples to have a civil partnership if they so wish. ····

DMcG ~~ how does/would this differ from the present civil register office wedding?

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 01:31 PM

It is important to note that the OP was about UK changes. In the US, it is still a complex mess. Most states still have have prohibitions against gay marriage being 'legal', even IF one's church allows it.

I really do not see why anyone feels that allowing others freedom to marry anyone they wish in anyway diminishes their own status.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 01:47 PM

Well, Micheal, I am not sure it does in practical terms. There is a case before the courts, though, of a straight couple demanding the right to have a civil partnership.

However, the reason I said it is for a reason that has nothing to do with gay/straight issues. Many people who have been in long standing relationships - say 15+ years - don't realise that they have almost none of the legal rights and protections they would have if they had been married. For example if they have separate bank accounts and one dies the other has no inheritance rights to that account if no will has been made. Similarly pension rights and so forth. At the opposite end of the lifeline are young couples who want to marry but completely confuse marriage and weddings so put off getting married until they cann afford say £15k for the hoopla. So in the meantime they live with the risks I outlined above. The solution is to find a way for society as a whole to separate the legal agreement (which we could keep very low key) with the huge-party-stuff, which is really a totally separate thing. We could do that now, but socially we think of registry office weddings and church weddings as broadly equivalent. If we were able to keep civil partnerships as low key affairs, it might give us a shot at solving this problem, which is actually one that affects a lot of people,many of whom don't realise it until too late.

But do I hold out much hope? Almost none, actually.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 01:48 PM

I doubt many would feels that Bill. Christian debates/objections will include whether or not homosexuality is a sin, whether or not a gay couple can be joined by God in Holy matrimony and whether or not a church would be following God by holding a same sex marriage.

Personally, while I have no objection civil partnerships - that is a state issue, I would not support a church that married same sex couples. It goes against my best understanding of the bible and my faith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: gnu
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 01:50 PM

Hmmm... ahhh... isn't (at least part of) the problem that "government" won't recognize same sex marriage because the "government" is influenced by "religious" morals? Such influence is backwards and despicable to me. Of course, the government requiring religions to perform same sex marriages is also backwards and despicable to me. Live and let live eh?

Maybe I have misunderstood the hypotheses and the proposals altogether.

In any case, I do not have a dog in this fight as I am Canadian and we kicked religion out of this debate 5 or 6 years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 02:10 PM

DMcG ~~ I take your point indeed. Civil [register office] marriage is at present intended to cover that need ~ perhaps it is just a matter of what you call it. The confusion you rubricate is probably down to the fact that many misguided people will persist in the belief that those who have been together for a certain time have the rights of a so-called 'Common Law Marriage', while there is in fact no such status recognised in law ~~ as one lawyer put it not long ago, "You might as well call a nut-cutlet a Common Law Steak". But there are people who believe the folklore and just will not be persuaded different. It is their own obstinate fault if they have inheritance problems when they could have sorted out the whole matter over a brief period for about £70 and a quarter-hour spent in front of the registrar. Perhaps calling it a civil partnership instead might work with them; but I doubt if it would make much difference.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 02:10 PM

As I read the link from the OP, this is a proposal that the UK government eliminate the current prohibition on G & L couples being married in a church (even though the main-stream religious bodies ( C of E and RC) say "no way". IHMO, and acknowledging that nobody in the US has any business commenting on the issue - since our governments' (plural intended) position on this is a mess - what business does any governmental body have in telling any church what they can and cannot do...short of human sacrifice or snake handling?


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: pdq
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 02:51 PM

If one's government has the power to force a Roman Catholic church to host a gay marriage, then they also have the power to force a synagogue to host a Muslim marriage.

The People need to curb government power, not expand it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: gnu
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 03:01 PM

pdq... eloquent, elucidating, concise. And true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 03:02 PM

pdq, this is a measure to curb government power - but it is a power that I wonder why it has in the first place. And why would a religious Muslim couple want to be married in a synagogue any more than a religious Jewish couple would want to be married in a Catholic cathedral?


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 05:43 PM

Well, I guess I'm torn on the issue. I think it's high time for the federal and state governments in the U.S. to accept gay marriage. I can see no logical reason for a civil prohibition of gay marriage. If two people want to get married, why should anyone else be able to interfere.

As for churches blessing gay marriages, that's another matter. I think that a church wedding implies that the vast majority of members of that church, offers its blessing to the marriage - and I think that blessings have to be freely given, not coerced. Some churches are ready for that, notably the Unitarian and Unity churches and maybe Reform Jews; but I'm not so sure about the others. I can't imagine the Roman Catholic Church blessing gay marriage in the next couple hundred years, although some Catholic priests and many Catholic nuns privately approve of gay marriages (lay people seem to be far more conservative on this, as do bishops).

It's an interesting question, and it will be interesting to see how it works out.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 06:33 PM

I cannot imagine that a homosexual couple would actually want to be married in a church that believed strongly enough that it was wrong that it would object to them choosing it.

I cannot imagine how a homosexual couple could wish to stay in a bed-and-breakfast arrangement in the home of people who believed strongly enough that it was wrong that they would object to their choosing it. However people are strange.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 06:56 PM

Shal we start a pool on when "the regulars" will show up in this thread?
I am guessing Monday morning (~12 hours).


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 07:16 PM

As I see it there are three possible types of marriage (maybe more?) - for whomsoever. Civil marriage is useful for those who want the the legal perks therein. It is available in some places and yet to come in others.

Spiritual marriage is open for all, in a church which is willing to offer their support of whichever type persons are choosing this type of marriage or in no church at all. A church is not a building; it is the community of people who choose to "worship" in a certain manner. A simple exchanging of vows in private or the presence of, a community of, friends seems perfectly reasonable to me and I know people who have done this. Spirituality is not confined to a church or a religion, it is a personal choice.

Then, of course, there is the option, where it is legal, of a combination of both. A religious ceremony which is also legal in the jurisdiction in which it takes place. The last wedding I attended was presided over by both a rabbi and a minister. It was legal, religious, spiritual and celebrated with Contra dancing.

In 1959, it was a hard choice for my Quaker Meeting in Pennsylvania to support my marriage to an African American. Today it would be no problem. Sigh! Even Quakers are not always as reasonable as I might hope.

A Quaker View of Sex, published at least 30 years ago, gave gay relationships the thumbs up. Many Quakers did not and do not agree. In Canada, however, there have been a number of gay marriages in Quaker Meetings. And some day, the rest of the world will catch up. When people learn to be tolerant of each other person and realize that we can celebrate our differences rather than fight them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 07:21 PM

i suspect that what starts as voluntary participation of liberal churches in "marrying"homosexuals/lesbians will at length turn to persecution of churches that aim to be faithful to biblical teaching.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: gnu
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 07:24 PM

Who gives a shit what the regulars think on accounta they don't think or perhaps cannot think or give two shits from Monday morning about anybody but themselves. But, I know what you mean... they will turn it into a never ending thread about why they think everybody else should accept their narrow ass intolerance... I'll stop now.

And leave as well. Although I do reserve the right to come back, of course. But, if I don't, to the regulars... get a life and a brain.

At the risk of offending mp and others with a touch of humour (for which I have been smacked before)... GO GAYS!

Hey, I made myself laugh so sue me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 08:09 PM

All churches aim to be faithful to biblical teaching. As I've heard it expressed, conservatives take the Biblec literally, and liberals take it seriously. Or, conservatives who accuse liberals of having a "pick 'n' mix" attitude to the Bible, only seem to have read the first few chapters of Genesis, selected chapters of Leviticus, the first two chapters of Matthew and Luke, and the Book of Revelation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 09:29 PM

There are at least two issues... maybe more, depending on how you make lists.

1)Should the 'government' have ANY say in the rights of ANY couple to have a legal marriage with all civil advantages.

2)What should the various churches do IF the government allows any combination of couples to marry?

It seems to me, as in my earlier post, that the government should NOT take a position. Thus, couples could legally marry, whether or not their chosen church agrees to 'sanctify' the union.

Of course, many would not 'feel' married properly unless they had religious approval, but that is gradually changing as the idea that only M/F unions are 'natural'. Science is proving more every year that sexual choice is largely determined by genes and DNA and hormones, etc.
   I consider myself fortunate that I do not have to fight the system and its religious background, but in my LONG experience now, I have known enough good people who did... and who simply and honestly could NOT live a heterosexual life.

I am sad & sorry that so many still feel they must apply a religious test to all of these important matters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 12:55 AM

Very thoughtful words, Dave.

Blessed are the peacemakers....

Thank you.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: mauvepink
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 10:42 AM

Why should I be offended gnu? If you mean GO GAYS! as in good for you gays! great gays! wish you well and all... then I see no offence to be made. If humour works for support then use it.

And tbh, for every one church goer I know who would reel at the thought of gay people in church, I know two others who hold the opposite view. Not every religious person has a down on gay people having the life they want. Live and let live eh? amen.

The only thing that would offend me is when people tell gays to GO!

I do not think you meant it the latter way somehow

:-)

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 11:16 AM

And tbh, for every one church goer I know who would reel at the thought of gay people in church, I know two others who hold the opposite view.

You omit a third category which accounts for most Christians I have contact with these days. They would not reel at the thought of a gay person in the congregation but they would not accept that a same sex couple can be joined by God in marriage.

I'm not overly concerned over numbers though...


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 12:57 PM

Jon... I am curious to know whether you would object.. or be upset... if that gay couple were legally married in a civil ceremony, no matter what you consider God might think about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 01:07 PM

This is my dream, my hope - me and MLKjr.

When people learn to be tolerant of each and every other person and realize that we can celebrate our differences rather than fight them.

Then the world can be at peace.

I am there. Those who are not can fight it out with words at 20 paces. Have fun. I realize that at the end of the day, we care for each other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 01:16 PM

I'd not object, Bill. I think upset is rather more personal and I'd guess it would depend on the circumstances.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: Penny S.
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 02:14 PM

I think that the gay couple who booked at the B&B that then barred them were unaware of the situation until they turned up. They checked that their dog would be welcome, but did not ask about themselves. If the B&B did not advertise their stance, how were they to know. Churches are a bit more obvious. And if what the couple want is a wedding, rather than a political confrontation, a declaration of their love, I still think they are unlikely to insist on an unfriendly location for it.

Quakers were mentioned on the radio this morning as among those wishing to change the law. In the UK, we are in a special position with regard to marriage. Like the CofE, unlike all other churches, we do not have to have a registrar present. So the legal prohibition on religious marriage for same sex couples does prevent proper Quaker weddings for such couples.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: mauvepink
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 02:50 PM

Hi Penny

It's a good point you make but the hotel would be in breach of current law if they did put their stance. It is simply against the law in the UK to be that discriminatory and offer a service. It is blatatnt discrimination

How odd that a dog would be okay on the premises but they were not welcome as two humans who loved each other. And to show balance a Hotel in the UK has been chided today for putting a notice outside saying "Poofters welcome!". You see even implied bigotry is not okay... ever.

You watch old films and documentaries and you see notices in hotel and B&B windows... no blacks, no Irish, pets welcome, that kind of thing. Heaven forbid we ever see those times return BUT the thinking that underrpins some of those notices is still there. It's wrong and it's illegal. Rightly so too

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 04:25 PM

Old episode of Little Mosque on the Prairie which viewed today:
two issues
1. gay marriage at the Anglican Church
2. Second wife for Moslem
(Mosque shares premises with its Anglican landlords)
1. Muslim "A" gets upset about the "abomination" and tries to find a new venue for mosque - turned down by everyone
2. First wife leaves home due to husband not saying unalterable "NO" to his mother
1. gay couple decide they prefer to marry in Toronto although a Muslim has agreed to cater reception with the best curry in town
2. Wife goes home; husband says "NO" to mother. Resolved.

1. Muslim and Anglican become new "friends" demonstrating in front of church. When told by the minister and the imam that wedding will not take place, they go off together for a beer - a root beer. Resolved.

What about next time? The community has been softened up. I'll bet a second go will not create a crisis. Or maybe it will and the third go... It is so hard for people to accept change. Second wives? Gay marriage? Finding a place for a mosque? The minister, "I christened him, how can I refuse to marry him?" Change comes hard but it does come, because some people, then more and more, think out of the rigid little box.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 05:12 PM

i identify totally with jons,s sentiments. having a biblically orthodox view regarding homosexual practise does not mean that we hate or despise anyone.perhaps the" live and let live "attitude might be advanced to those whose faith teaches that marriage is a heterosexual union blessed of God.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: mauvepink
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 07:49 PM

Well I do live and let live. I'm all for hetrosexuals being able to get married in a church too ;-)

But to think that ONLY they should have that right, especially in the light of all the recent research showing that homosexuality probably has a genetic basis, how much longer should the church (any religion) discriminate against gay people? Why should it just be a hetrosexual thing? I would have thought that any religion should be welcoming the union of two people who love each other.

Christians especially should not be discriminating because the person who died for them never once made any speech against gay people. His message was one of love and forgiveness for all mankind. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Judge yea not as yea may be judged. Sin is sin. and IF being gay is a sin, then no-one who sins is fit to judge on that premise. We are all sinners, the bible tells us... so that is how I feel myself about this. If we are made in God's image then surely what we are is in some way sacred and I do believe the bible says that we are all the same in God's eyes?

Live and let live. Everyone should have the same rights and no-one should be able to take the moral high ground on this because being gay could happen to any one of us, our children, our friends, our parents, priests, ministers... whoever.

There but for the grace of God go I... but then again I am lucky that I have the freedom to be able to be who I am, what I am and how I am. None have the right to be better than someone else who is our equal

Jesus never once spoke out against gay people. He lived among twelve men. He had no problem declaring his love for those around him. Does the church think they know better than Jesus? What possible harm can it do to allow gay people to have the right to marry and be bleesed in a church if they wish. In my mind that would really be taking Jesus words in a manner he would be proud of.

I respect opposing views but we have to stop this heterosexual led rule making that excludes gay people the same rights and benefits of the majority. Gay people have hearts and minds to love with...

So would they exclude someone who was bisexual from marrying in church as long as they were opposite genders? Who knows? Who cares? Fact is that if two people wish to commit their lives to each other in the face of God then why not let them? Jesus never said anything to the contrary. Only men have written things since Jesus spoke his message of love and forgiveness.

Sorry to have harped on. But I am passionate about this because I really see no harm being done and certainly nothing in any way pernicious considering all the true evil in this world.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 08:56 PM

Sin is sin. and IF being gay is a sin, then no-one who sins is fit to judge on that premise

I may be misunderstanding you but it does seem to me that you do believe there are sins. Let me pick on something I would feel confident that you would believe is a sin and ask you:

If you believed theft was a sin, would you be sitting in judgement by stating your belief? Would you be sitting in judgement by not wanting be an accomplice to theft?


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 10:52 PM

What the Bible says and means about homosexuality


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 11:13 PM

Quakers in Madison WI
Quakers were one of the denominations from the Madison WI area, which issued a statement in 1997, titled: "Madison Affirmation On Homosexuality and Christian Faith". 3 It states:
"Jesus Christ calls us to love God and our neighbor as ourselves. As Christian clergy we embrace gay and lesbian persons as our neighbors. From our reading of scripture and from our pastoral experiences, we believe there is sufficient evidence to conclude that homosexuality is neither sickness nor sin. For too long, homosexual persons have been condemned and mistreated by the followers of Jesus Christ. Sadly, the Bible has been misused in support of this condemnation. This abuse of scripture must end. Heterosexual and homosexual persons are children of God, created in God's image. ...

We believe it is time to eliminate all policies and practices which create barriers and restrictions to the full participation of gay and lesbian Christians in all of the privileges and responsibilities of church membership. Recognizing that our churches still speak and act out of our long-standing prejudices:

        We hope and pray that we will acknowledge our sin and be forgiven for our ignorance, fear, arrogance and self-righteousness; ...
        We rejoice in the refusal of many gay and lesbian Christians to abandon or be forced out of their church homes;...
        We consider these sisters and brothers to be a unique, holy and precious gift to all of us who struggle to become the family of God."


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 08:27 AM

What this means is that religion has to decide whether it is an interest club for its' members or a relevant part of civic life for the community at large.

Church of England clerics and their mates are harping on about being marginalised and the likes of Dawkins questioning their relevance. Well, as the examples given by the Bishop I heard are fairly ludicrous, (one where a Bed & Breakfast owner wants to be free to be a bigot and another where a nurse wants to ask vulnerable people to pray with her when she enters their house as part of her role,) I fail to see how they can attempt to join in with grown up debate in any sense.

So this affair may well help ask the question whether religions want the freedom to do whatever they do on a Sunday, Friday whatever with no interference from people who aren't in their club or whether they are part of the fabric of a community.

If they wish to be part of the fabric of the community, they can start by accepting that many people see their services as part of a tradition, so people may wish to use their facilities.

Sorted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: mauvepink
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 10:51 AM

Hi Jon

You mention "If you believed theft was a sin, would you be sitting in judgement by stating your belief? Would you be sitting in judgement by not wanting be an accomplice to theft? " and this is a fair point. I see what you are now getting at.

I have problem with some sins personally. The point I was trying to put across is that according to the bible and church we are all sinners. I personally do not transcribe to the idea in total. I do not think a new born baby can be a sinner simply by being born, as an instance. I also believe being homosexual is not a sin.

I am told by Christian friends though that all sin is sin and I have had a great deal of discussion on topics like murder and stealing a loaf are both equal sins in the eyes of God. So when I say all sin is sin I was not quoting my own belief on that. I personally cannot see how each are in any way equal and deserve the same punsihment or condemnation. But then there am I judging of sorts. I do take your point. I do not deny also I am judgemental in many instances. It is part of the human condition

What I will not do is blame Jesus for being responsible for what I think nor what other people have written about him and his wishes after his ascension. I am not actually Christian myself but I have no problem with Christ's teachings generally.

Complicated? I am. I am not always right. I am fallible. I know I have not always done the right thing too. But that is between my God and I. I judge all the time. We all make assessments every day on people's activities and intent around us. We make mistakes. To err is human, to forgive divine.

Thank you for your peacable example. It's certainly a valid point as much as any I have made from my side of this fence

best wishes

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 11:29 AM

Thanks for the reply mp. I know that some things are described as an abomination or as being detestable but I believe all sin is sin to God just as your friends explained. I'm better than him because he does this and I only do that does not work.

Complicated? I am. I am not always right. I am fallible. I know I have not always done the right thing too.

I doubt any one of us could truthfully say otherwise...


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 12:42 PM

mauvepink-it is true that jesus is not recorded as addressing the subject of homosexuality directly. however he clearly delineated the boundaries of marriage as being as a "man being joined to his wife".in addition to this he was a practising jew and we know what moses is recorded as writing on the subject.he said that he had not come to abolish the law but to fulfil it;admittedly not giving details ,but pauls teaching on the subject tends to confirm the continuation of the OT view of homosexual practise.
i am aware that some interpret scripture to faciltate same sex unions but i dont think that would be the historically understood position.

i would differ from some of your christian friends inasmuch as i do believe there are degrees of sin,though any sin separates us from God but for Christs atonement.
it is worth saying that though same sex is strongly spoken against in the bible,other sins also are;eg adultery/divorce and pride.

though not agreeing with your position ,i appreciate the gracious way that you express it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: mauvepink
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 01:12 PM

Thank you Jon and Pete for your own gracious way in which you have asked and answered questions. In truth I am far from gracious myself but I do beleive that great things can be acheived when any opposing sides truly delve and discuss their differences.

I respect, for instance, the way you have explained how Christ, being a Jew, would have gone along with the laws the time in respect of his forebears BUT he also said "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another" and it is in that respect I see an almost paradigm shift in the presentation of love and forgiveness.

I truly believe that if Christ were alive today... no, allow me to rephrase that as many beileve he is and I respect them their belief... If Christ was here on Earth today he would not condemn gay people or them wishing to be married. I have to believe him to be a compassionate and merciful man if I am to believe of him. How could any omnipotent creator of something come to take aways it's rights when he is said to have designed the very thing himself and yet still love it? The genetics behind homosexuality - if we invoke a creator - have come from that creator. If he made a mistake in design then that would make him imperfect. We are told he is perfect so I have to believe he made homosexuality come about.

I also truly believe, insofar as I believe or want to believe at all, that Christ should be the embodiment of fairness and equality. I cannot see him treating one differently than another. I sincerely hope that is the case but it is not my intention to crush toes by standing on them here, rather to share other's footwear and try to walk a ways in their shoes

Thank you for being open minded within the confines of your own beliefs. It's not easy to take a stretch sometimes in crowded space. I respect that a great deal

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Gay church 'marriages' set to get the go
From: John P
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 02:16 PM

Jon, you've said that homosexuality is a sin according to your interpretation of the Bible and that you wouldn't support a church that marries homosexuals. Would you support a church that serves food that isn't kosher? What about one that allowed its members to wear clothes made from a cotton/poly blend?

Which parts of the Bible are important and which parts are OK to ignore?


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