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Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards

Lizzie Cornish 1 15 Feb 11 - 03:50 PM
GUEST,JM 15 Feb 11 - 04:25 PM
Jeri 15 Feb 11 - 04:34 PM
GUEST 15 Feb 11 - 04:38 PM
GUEST,David E. 15 Feb 11 - 04:50 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 15 Feb 11 - 04:53 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 15 Feb 11 - 04:54 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 15 Feb 11 - 05:19 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 15 Feb 11 - 05:35 PM
Fran 15 Feb 11 - 05:54 PM
Ruth Archer 15 Feb 11 - 06:15 PM
GUEST 15 Feb 11 - 07:35 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 15 Feb 11 - 08:12 PM
Jack Campin 15 Feb 11 - 08:22 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Feb 11 - 02:40 AM
Smedley 16 Feb 11 - 02:46 AM
Bonzo3legs 16 Feb 11 - 02:49 AM
theleveller 16 Feb 11 - 03:11 AM
SteveMansfield 16 Feb 11 - 03:14 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 16 Feb 11 - 03:25 AM
theleveller 16 Feb 11 - 03:30 AM
theleveller 16 Feb 11 - 03:35 AM
GUEST,S.T.M. 16 Feb 11 - 03:43 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 16 Feb 11 - 04:05 AM
Backwoodsman 16 Feb 11 - 04:06 AM
Stu 16 Feb 11 - 04:43 AM
Rob Naylor 16 Feb 11 - 04:46 AM
Ruth Archer 16 Feb 11 - 04:56 AM
GUEST,Graham Bradshaw 16 Feb 11 - 05:31 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 16 Feb 11 - 05:36 AM
Fran 16 Feb 11 - 05:38 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 16 Feb 11 - 05:54 AM
Ruth Archer 16 Feb 11 - 06:02 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 16 Feb 11 - 06:25 AM
TheSnail 16 Feb 11 - 06:30 AM
GUEST,folkiedave 16 Feb 11 - 06:36 AM
melodeonboy 16 Feb 11 - 06:38 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 16 Feb 11 - 06:44 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 16 Feb 11 - 06:56 AM
Ruth Archer 16 Feb 11 - 07:10 AM
GUEST 16 Feb 11 - 07:26 AM
Stu 16 Feb 11 - 07:28 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 16 Feb 11 - 07:38 AM
Jack Campin 16 Feb 11 - 07:44 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 16 Feb 11 - 08:03 AM
GUEST,Folkiedave 16 Feb 11 - 08:03 AM
Rob Naylor 16 Feb 11 - 08:15 AM
GUEST,Patsy 16 Feb 11 - 08:20 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Feb 11 - 08:21 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 16 Feb 11 - 08:27 AM
Ruth Archer 16 Feb 11 - 08:37 AM
theleveller 16 Feb 11 - 08:41 AM
Zen 16 Feb 11 - 08:48 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Feb 11 - 08:56 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Feb 11 - 08:59 AM
GUEST,SteveT 16 Feb 11 - 08:59 AM
Jeri 16 Feb 11 - 09:00 AM
Ruth Archer 16 Feb 11 - 09:00 AM
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Subject: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 03:50 PM

Well, they may not have won a Folk Award, but they've just this second stolen the show at The Brits...

WHAT a performance!

4 lads, I guitar, a banjo and great harmonies....and...no bullshit!

And the audience went wild....probably not as wild as Ian Anderson will go, of course, or Jim Moray...but wild indeed!

Well done, lads.....and hey, folk world, open up your arms and welcome them in....

Oh..and I look forward to seeing them in fRoots some time in the not tooooo distant future...Maybe, even a cover??

;0)


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 04:25 PM

Don't presume you know what I think, Lizzie. Leave me out of this. Thanks.


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 04:34 PM

Grammy performance, even if it's at Perez Hiltons website. These guys could make banjos cool again.

I honestly don't know if I liked the song, but I LOVED the energy.


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 04:38 PM

anybody know what the song was called and where it can be downloaded? :D


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: GUEST,David E.
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 04:50 PM

This is probably a good place to ask, why do so many of the young acoustic bands these days thrash around like heavy metal bands? Not knocking the music, just wondering.

David E.


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 04:53 PM

I'm sure it'll be on Youtube in the next few days...

Thanks, Jeri..great clip. I bet they never imagined they'd be singing with Bob Dylan!

Now now, Jim, you've said you're fair share about them over on fRoots, none of which has been very er...supportive, so it's no good gettin' all flumpsydowndaisy with me.

These guys are great....


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 04:54 PM

"...why do so many of the young acoustic bands these days thrash around like heavy metal bands?.."

Is it because they're young, filled with excitement, vitality and loadsa energy?


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 05:19 PM

Here's the song they sang, although this is a different performance of it, as the Brits one isn't online just yet..

Mumfrod & Sons 'Timshel'


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 05:35 PM

I've really tried to like Mum and sons etc....Just don't get it.
Tastes differ obviously.
And if it's banjos you like. Rob Murch. Genius.


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: Fran
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 05:54 PM

They have been offered some of the big folk festivals this year and last and turned them down as they don't want to be seen as folk, so stuff em I say.


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 06:15 PM

What Jim Moray actually said on the fRoots messageboard (and I've just checked) was that he thought Mumford & Son were perfectly good at what they do, but he questioned their relevance to the majority of the content (and readers) of fRoots magazine. Which was perfectly reasonable in the context of the discussion, and could only be construed as "unsupportive" by someone looking to deliberately shit-stir.


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 07:35 PM

In my opinion they are just a good pop band who happen to play acoustic instruments. Nowt else.
Cheers Les


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 08:12 PM

Little more than a generation ago,
the Mumfsies would have been dismissively pigeonholed
as rather undistinguished 'Soft Rock'..

Who knows how well they would have faired back then in the pop charts of the early 70's,
amidst strong competition from such a myriad of similar styled
now long forgotten bands ???


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 08:22 PM

Someone came into Sandy Bells on Sunday and did a Mumford and Sons song out of a book without saying what it was.

More melodic than what I've heard from them in person, but I couldn't remember a note of it after he'd finished and had no idea what it was about. The singer thought they were Irish. I'd told him they were English public schoolboys last time he came in a few weeks ago, but the information didn't stick.

He did it in in C sharp minor, which gave me a chance to noodle an accompaniment with a fair degree of confidence and watch the fiddlers give up in despair. So I could find something to appreciate in them, I guess. Just not a lot.

Have they got any songs in B flat minor or E flat minor?


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 02:40 AM

Sorry, but I've read quite a bit of disparaging stuff about the lads, over on fRoots from various people.

Good for them for turning down the folk world. Why the heck would they want to be hypocrites when they know what many in the folk world think of them. AND why would they want to join a world where some folks go out of their way to try to put down the career of others, Seth Lakeman and the fRoots/Mercury fiasco stands clearly in my mind here...

Basically, these are lads who do it 'their way', no bowing and kowtowing, nor arse-licking to and of the big fish of the small pond, so I have great respect for them.

FINALLY some folks who've had the guts to stand up to the Folk Mafia and seemingly say 'You know what, we don't want or need you!'

For WAY too long artists have been so controlled, so dependant on power driven people who have the folk world sewn up so tight, who hold their careers in their hands...

I know one musician who was constantly terrified that I'd say something to upset the Folk Mafia and therefore possibly 'ruin' everything for the band concerned. I told them to take a stand against the controlling ones, not wobble in front of them...but to no avail...This person and the band they play with was, is and are profoundly talented singers and musicians who should, of course, be right up there winning Folk Awards, getting the best gigs, but they're not in the Inner Circle sooooooooo.........

And as for other musicians who've chosen to go the way of the Folk Mafia, bowing and kowtowing, where once they stood firm and strong against 'em, well...................................

Anyways ups, good luck to Mumford & Sons!


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: Smedley
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 02:46 AM

The group doesn't want to be seen as folk. They don't sound like folk (to my ears). Verious people involved in folk don't consider them folk......So remind me, why are we discussing them here ??


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 02:49 AM

"I've really tried to like Mum and sons etc....Just don't get it."

Same here.


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: theleveller
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 03:11 AM

"Is it because they're young, filled with excitement, vitality and loadsa energy?"

Bastards!

Actually I love them. Just wish that I was......oh you know.


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 03:14 AM

"I've really tried to like Mum and sons etc....Just don't get it."

Same here.


Me three.

Someone once described Coldplay as 'Pink Floyd with all the interesting bits taken out' - well to these ears Mumford & Sons are a homogenised dumbed-down passionless teen-friendly version of Coldplay.

Dull, dull dull.

A couple of tunes featuring banjo don't make them a folk band; and if they don't want their tedious navel-gazing public-school-common-room-rock twaddle to be associated with the folk scene, then all the better for us I say!


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 03:25 AM

I have no problem with Mumford and sons winning anything. Will be good for their careers no doubt. Good luck to them. But, the Brits is a music industry bean feast, and has little effect on my life, thats all.
Indeed, almost all award ceremonies have little effect on me. They are a way to promote the careers of the artists concerned. No more, No less.
Won't make me rush out to buy their CD anytime soon. But good luck to them.
One thing. At least they can play instruments, unlike Take That!
Oh...BTW Am I a member of the "Folk Mafia"? Would be nice to know!


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: theleveller
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 03:30 AM

I can't understand all this venom. You don't like them - fine, it's just your opinion, no need to have apoplexy about it. What I'm impressed with is that both of my sons (29 and 20), who have quite different musical tastes, love them, and so do mrsleveller and I - so they have a very wide appeal. Plus they're one of the most popular bands on the festival circuit. So, persoanally, I don't give a shit whether they're folk or not (by whatever definition you care to choose) or whether they appeal to either of the readers of fRoots magazine (or is just the one now?)


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: theleveller
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 03:35 AM

"persoanally" - hey, I've invented a new word - quite expressive, I think ;-)


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: GUEST,S.T.M.
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 03:43 AM

I really like Mumford and Sons.

I wouldn't really say they were very folky and I doubt they'd want to be considered as such. However, I do like what they do and I thought they were great at Cambridge Folk Festival 2009, if anyone saw them?

I'm also very pleased for Laura Marling; she seemed to humble when picking up her award and personally, I think it was well deserved.


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 04:05 AM

'For WAY too long artists have been so controlled, so dependant on power driven people who have the folk world sewn up so tight, who hold their careers in their hands...

I know one musician who was constantly terrified that I'd say something to upset the Folk Mafia and therefore possibly 'ruin' everything for the band concerned. I told them to take a stand against the controlling ones, not wobble in front of them...but to no avail...This person and the band they play with was, is and are profoundly talented singers and musicians who should, of course, be right up there winning Folk Awards, getting the best gigs, but they're not in the Inner Circle sooooooooo.........

And as for other musicians who've chosen to go the way of the Folk Mafia, bowing and kowtowing, where once they stood firm and strong against 'em, well...................................'

Bullseye Liz! A very fair precis of the situation. What is indisputable is that it is these people who will attract young people to folk and acoustic music and its techniques. How many of the present eminence gris of the folk world started out doing Donovan and dylan - because these were the guys with fire in there belly at the time, and provided role models that young folks could look to.

of course if the aim of the game is feeling superior to everyone else, and keeping the top table at the folk club exclusive - which one suspects it always was, always will be - well then, hold the line boys! Repel all invaders from the real world; the place where you have learn the words, write attractive melodies, learn how to use a digital tuner and other black arts.


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 04:06 AM

Very listenable, slightly folk-influenced acoustic pop-music.

Enjoyable - I have their first CD. I doubt it's truly folk (certainly not, if the 1954 Definition is applied), but it is pleasant and their energy and enthusiasm make it perhaps more so.

And (as someone else said above - Ralphie?) they do actually play their instruments and can therefore be justifiably described as a 'band', unlike Take That and their clones (WTF is a 'band' that doesn't play instruments, but just sings and dances? Isn't that a 'vocal group', 'dance-troupe' or 'choir'?).

IMHO, YMMV, no problem.
Somewhat subdued rant over.


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: Stu
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 04:43 AM

Laura Marling fully deserved her award too. Great album, great singer, great songwriter.


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 04:46 AM

Well I don't like all of what they do, but I think that the sheer venom they get from a lot of the "folk world" is unjustified.

I agree with the posts above that say they will inspire youngsters to get into acoustic-y music. Indeed, I know a couple who've already been inspired.

One of the first songs that I played, in a "scratch band" at a climbing club meet in 2009, was "Little Lion Man", learned from a YouTube clip before they'd even officially released it. Yes, it's fairly basic, but it went down an absolute storm with the (predominantly young) audience of climbers, who'd never heard of the band at that time.

I despair when I go to singarounds where there's *nobody* under 50 present, but everyone's sitting there smug in their complacency, while I know that in the same own there are at least a dozen young bands or artistes playing/ singing "folky" stuff but who won't go along to these events because they're worried that they'll be "put down" by the "cogniscenti" as "not being folky enough".

At least there's something a bit fresh there, even if it's pushing at the boundaries of the "folk" label...it sometimes gets a bit "old" listening to "Brighton Camp" played by massed melodeons for the 7th time that month! Maybe I'm not cut out for this "folk" stuff and should crawl back under my "indie rock" stone :-)

Labels, labels.........


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 04:56 AM

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha....

And this thread is what i love about Mudcat.

The local agent provocateur sets up a false tension and drags in the names of unsuspecting people to goad them into response.

others join in to "defend" the band in question, which has apparently been much maligned in "other places" (though no evidence of this is provided).

Some people say "they're not really my cup of tea".

Other people jump on them for being negative and narrow-minded.

Meanwhile the band themselves, who never wanted to be part of the folk industry in the first place and who have achieved a healthy level of pop/chart success, carry on oblivious to all this nonsense.

Of course, it's once again the fault of the "folk police".

You know, people book bands they think their audiences will like. It's that simple. There are as many different festivals and events as there are different folk audiences. Some bands will always be more popular than others.

As Dave Eyre suggested on a thread yesterday, if you don't like what's going on, change it. Get out there and run an event or a festival. Let's see your innovative and stimulating programming. Show the rest of us how it should be done. Good luck with that - especially in the current climate, when respected and long-running festivals like Trowbridge and Oxford have fallen by the wayside.

Here's a crazy thought. Instead of constantly bashing the people who put massive amounts of time and energy (often unpaid) into providing interesting events for you to enjoy all year round, maybe some of them could do with a little more support right about now.


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: GUEST,Graham Bradshaw
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 05:31 AM

I was interviewed on the local radio this morning (BBC Cov and Warwickshire) - they phoned me out of the blue for my reactions to the 2 Brit winners.

To paraphrase what I said (which was off the cuff):

I don't think either of them are what the majority of people in the folkscene would regard as 'folk', however the 'media' have labelled them as such. Is it a GOOD THING for folk? Yes, probably, if it opens the ears of the general public to something other than Britain's Got X Factor. And if a few people explore further and find the wealth of stuff that the folkscene embraces, then that is DEFINITELY a GOOD THING.


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 05:36 AM

Well to be fair the other side has done most of the bashing. They have guggered up the careers of everybody who doesn't buy this 1954 garbage. The fact that they bugger up the careers of musicians completely unpaid speaks of nothing but their malice, jealousy and extremism.

So everyday we hear that people who are inspired by gypsy jazz - they aren't folk - could never be. jack Hudson - he's not folk. Nobody is really, unless you are writing in the style that had found its natural resting place on the dusty shelves of cecil Sharp house

The finger up the arsehole brethren have wrought their destruction, done their mighty work. They have got Mike Harding's show down to an hour a week. Folkwaves has gone - well not before time.

the great work is done. You are vindicated. English people apart from a few families and their mates and syccophants don't have a stake in their own folk culture. Your point is proved.

1954 rampant!


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: Fran
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 05:38 AM

Well said Graham.


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 05:54 AM

' if a few people explore further and find the wealth of stuff that the folkscene embraces'

ha! if only it did embrace a bit of diversity.


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 06:02 AM

Al, I have absolutely no idea who you are talking about, but certainly a quick look at my own festival lineup this year makes it abundantly clear that it's not me. My own definition of folk is a pretty broad church, and there are myriad artists and bands on our bill who don't fit the 1954 definition, or that you wouldn't find on the "dusty shelves of Cecil Sharp House". Don't believe me? google Genticorum, The Spooky Men, Mr B the Gentleman Rhymer, Alasdair Roberts, The Yiddish Twist Orchestra, Moishe's Bagel, Nidi d'Arac, Peter Bellamy's The Transports, The Old Dance School, Ethno in Transit...I could go on. We have a Motown ceilidh and a silent disco, for heaven's sake - I don't really think we're treading any purist line.

The word folk is little more than a marketing tool and a record industry genre these days, and I'm not particularly precious about it. "Traditional" is another matter - but there's no reason why it shouldn't be.

I suspect, as I have suggested in the past, that you simply mean that you, and certain of your friends, don't get as many bookings as you would like. If you wish to see a conspiracy in that, I'm not going to stop you and neither will anyone else, I suspect. But that has precious little to do with Mumford & Sons, who are doing very well for themselves.

You can't MAKE people like what you like, Al. If you think it's that great and isn't getting the platform it deserves, start your own festival or regular folk event. Programme everyone you think has been hard done by. If you sell enough tickets, you'll have proved your point, and given them the career boost you think they deserve. If you don't...well, that's the risk we all take, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 06:25 AM

I'm sorry if my earlier thoughts came across as a criticism of Mumfords musical/songwriting skills...
What annoys me, are the people stating that "People should perform music that I like" and "Festivals should book people that I like".
Well, as has been pointed out above. 2 Festivals (Oxford and Trowbridge) have gone to the wall. Others are looking nervously over their shoulders in these straightened times.
I'd love to hold a festival in a beautiful part of the country with all my favourite artists......Wouldn't even dare to try, even if I could afford it! But I admire all of those hard working people who keep on keeping on, providing the festivals that still exist.
Back to the Mums...They don't want to play Folk Festivals anyway apparently....So, what's the problem?


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 06:30 AM

Could someone just clear something up for me? Are the Folk Mafia and the Folk Police the same people or different, and possibly rival, organisations?


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: GUEST,folkiedave
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 06:36 AM

The finger up the arsehole brethren have wrought their destruction, done their mighty work. They have got Mike Harding's show down to an hour a week. Folkwaves has gone - well not before time

Really? Well I started in folk music in the early 1960's and there are far far more musicians playing folk music - however defined - than there were then. There also seem to be more singers around than ever.

I went to a packed Cheltenham Festival last weekend. Superb music all around from the bar to the club room to the ceilidh to the sessions in the Bell to the music at the Big Wide-awake where the music went on until the early hours sufficient to generate a complaint. Not much destruction there.

As for "Folkwaves has gone - well not before time" remark, it was closed at the whim of a BBC suit. No other reason as far as anyone knows. He and you may be right of course to have closed it, but over 2,500 people have joined a Facebook group in protest and there were two protests outside Radio Derby before Xmas. (You might remember - it was freezing cold but about 60 people turned up to each one).

It has been replaced a phone-in, a pub quiz, by middle of the road music and some psychic poodles. And a bloke talking mostly rubbish. That must please you immensely. Have you listened to it? Try it. It makes your eyeballs bleed and you would be begging for the return of Folkwaves"

Far from being destroyed there is a a whole shed load of folk music about. There is actually much more folk music on radio than ever, thanks to community radio and it serves the wide variety that is the genre. A lot of it is via the internet so just about any taste can be served. And if you don't like what is on offer then start your own up. I did.

I go to as many festivals as I can, a couple of sessions a week, and wherever possible I promote young artists on a two hour live radio show.

How do I get out of the Folk mafia? Stop posting facts on Mudcat?

What do you think Alan?


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: melodeonboy
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 06:38 AM

I suspect they're the same people. They just put on dark glasses when they're acting as the Folk mafia! :)


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 06:44 AM

I don't want to compel anybody Ruth, to do anything they don't want.

To be honest - Mumford and sons - i'm an old fart and it sounds to me like unmemorable songs about sod all and human relationships. I'm scarcely human - I don't have relationships.

However have you seen how many people are looking at their sites and songs - they obviously have a magnetism that people respond to.

Wheras your list of attraction - nice guys I'm sure, but they belong as the entertainment for a parents evening at a primary school. They'd go down a bomb with that middle class audience that wants to go home and watch Eastenders. To inspire the poets and dreamers to take up gitars and mandolins and bodhrans and fiddles - and walk on water, you need something a little more

Can you remember how secure a profession being a folksinger looked in 1968? People like Jack Hudson and derek brimstone went out and filled folk clubs - whilst irwin and dallas praised every week in Melody Maker people who could empty a room faster than a trapeze artist with diarrhoea. Something has gone wrong -its been going wrong for a long time. Acknowledge that and you're half way there.

Mumford and sons will take care of themselves. So will Show of Hands. its the little people excluded by the folk mafia, who have been damaged.


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 06:56 AM

Speaking as a little person, I'm well used to being marginalised. After 30 years, have finally made some money. (not much.Enough for a traditional English curry perhaps)
How can I join the Folk Mafia? Do I need to buy a black suit?
And baldricks and bell pads?


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 07:10 AM

"Wheras your list of attraction - nice guys I'm sure, but they belong as the entertainment for a parents evening at a primary school. They'd go down a bomb with that middle class audience that wants to go home and watch Eastenders. To inspire the poets and dreamers to take up gitars and mandolins and bodhrans and fiddles - and walk on water, you need something a little more"


So you're telling me you've listened to them all, Al? You can define their audience as for parents' evenings at primary schools, when some of them, for example, are the finest representatives of the folk traditions of their respective countries, but are mixing their music with new genres and taking it out to young audiences? Or have you simply written them off because you've not heard of them?

I think what you're actually saying, Al, is that you can't be arsed to find out what these people actually play and whether it's any good, but you've decided to dismiss a bunch of excellent artists whose music you don't even know. How does that make you any better than the "Mafia" who have destroyed these various careers that you speak of?

Maybe that's the difference between you and me: I actually listen to something before I decide whether I like it or not. And I'll tell you what: come up to the Bulverton this year and see a thousand kids jumping up and down in total joy watching The Usual Suspects, or The Chair, or Anxo Lorenzo. Then tell me this is music for parents' evenings down the local school.

Unfortunately, the ticket-buying public seem to really like what we're doing, Al. I'm sorry to disappoint, but there it is: sales growing year on year, with 12,000 tickets sold last year. But as I say - if you think there's a better way, and better bands out there, no one is stopping you putting them on. Go for it. I'll totally buy a ticket - I like to support other organisers, and I'd be genuinely interested to check out your event.


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 07:26 AM


Unfortunately, the ticket-buying public seem to really like what we're doing, Al. I'm sorry to disappoint, but there it is: sales growing year on year, with 12,000 tickets sold last year. But as I say - if you think there's a better way, and better bands out there, no one is stopping you putting them on. Go for it. I'll totally buy a ticket - I like to support other organisers, and I'd be genuinely interested to check out your event.

Very good point, Joan. The folk scene is not unique - but it is certainly populated by those who do very little but are full of criticism for those who do.


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: Stu
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 07:28 AM

"They'd go down a bomb with that middle class audience that wants to go home and watch Eastenders."

This sort of judgemental attitude is why people are put off folk music. You might not like them, but acting with this sort of condescending and patronising crap to others who do does no-one any favours. What gives you the right to judge?

No point in banging on about the folk mafia Alan when you're acting as myopic and stuck-up as they are.


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 07:38 AM

Well lets see Ralphie - you want to join the folk cosa nostra:-

1) You have to promise not try to make aliving out of writing songs and creating music about the the world you inhabit. The press gang or the 1st world war - that must be your metier.

2) A profession like a teacher, or a librarian or something similar is useful - you must actually despise anyone capable of doing work a day musician gigs - weddings, pubs, recording sessions for pop music or country music. the motto here is - I work to a professional standard but I am not willing to live the life of a professional musician.

3) Always refer to famous folksingers by their first name - Martin, Norma, Peggy, Ewan......even if you've only knocked their drink over, or stood on their foot - you are one of their intimates.

4) Unless a folksinger is related to one of the great folksinging families, they are pretty much bound to be crap - its alright to dis them. Actually complain if some dirtbag dj plays their song on a folk programme. There is a contract out on these peoples careers.

5) If you want to make your bones and be made man, or even a simple footsoldier in the folk mafia. You can usually ice most wiseguys thus:-

a) say of course its rubbish, its not folk in the 1954 definition

b) producing an enormous folder at a singaround, and singing completely expressionly a very long song. The motto here is -look the Copper family do it, alright....!

c) Say - I got this fiddle last week and already I can play a song.

d) I found this guitar in the attic. i haven't touched it for ten years, but I thought I'd like to come out and sing.

e) always remeber anyone showing signs of professionalism or competence is abit suspect. A good line her is, Yes i know you phoned up an hour in advance and sent a cd and we said you can hav a spot. But i can oly give you one song like everyone else including the 'care in the community' gang. I know you travelled a hundred and twenty miles. You must come back another time .

Do these all things and Mike Harding and Mick Peat will make you consigliere.


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 07:44 AM

Do you have a similar recipe for how to join the Club Of Embittered Old Failures Nobody Listens To Any More?


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 08:03 AM

Yup its right next to my entry form for the embittered failures that nobody got a chance to listen to in the first place - cos the folk mafia were pursuing their murderous turf war.


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: GUEST,Folkiedave
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 08:03 AM

Can you remember how secure a profession being a folksinger looked in 1968? People like Jack Hudson and Derek Brimstone went out and filled folk clubs

Ha! The 1968 definition. That's where we went wrong! Not following the 1968 definition.


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 08:15 AM

Ruth Archer: As Dave Eyre suggested on a thread yesterday, if you don't like what's going on, change it. Get out there and run an event

I do, in a small way.

A while back when I put on Tiny Tin Lady ( before Katriona left) at our local indie rock venue, TTL was astonished to find that most of their audience was under 25 and even more surprised to find them up front and dancing. And the younsters were surprised to find that they liked a band that came with a "somewhat folky pedigree". My daughter's friend (a Metal Head) said to her " I love them, they're great...but don't tell anybody I said that" :-). Danni said it was a refreshing change to be playing to an audience near their own age.

I'm putting on Katriona Gilmore and Jamie Roberts at a local venue in April and lining up a young local support with a "youth" following here as, again, I know Katriona and Jamie usually get a more "mature" audience and feel that a bit more "cross-fertilisation" of the local scene wouldn't go amiss.


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 08:20 AM

There must be young people out there who are sick and tired of the X Factor music scene as it is at the moment so it has to be seen as a breath of fresh air to at last have an alternative to see or listen to. As for 'thrashing around' young people have more attitude now so why not show that, it is the sign of the times. I do hope though that they don't start trying to be experimental as 'Florence & the Machine' did by doing mixes with rappers the more popular they get.


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 08:21 AM

No, 'Guest' I ain'. I'm someone who The Folk Mafia ganged up on, Jim Moray included, sadly, to silence my voice on the BBC board. It started because I dared to like the wrong band, and from Day 1 I was singled out for the most astounding nastiness I've ever come across, anywhere.

This came at me from those within the world of fRoots, and it's supporters, who...at the time...*****loathed***** the band I was writing about, that band being Show of Hands, along with Seth Lakeman et al.

I noticed pretty fast that the folk world, the English one at least, seemed to be almost a vast 'family' of artists, who were all pretty much related and supported by the same group of people, many of whom had started out in the folk world alongside them, in many different ways, either as fellow musicians, or as the audience.

There seemed to be very much an attitude of 'this is OUR world, so why the fook don't you bugger off and leave it and us alone!'....

Of course, I stayed, so they decided to make life very unpleasant for me. I was lied about, complained about, posts of mine disappeared due to those complaints..Over here one of the very posters on this thread, a very 'holier than thou' one too, dragged the most personal details of my life onto this board, threatening to discuss things with my husband, who at the time I was divorcing. It was unbelievable...

Then, something odd started to happen...and the new way of dealing with me was to start loving all that I loved. The poster concerned took over 'artistic director' of Sidmouth Folk Week and became good buddies with Show of Hands, supporting them wherever she could, after being so astonishingly abusively rude about them on the BBC board for a very long time.

The strategy worked and they allegedly became accepted by The Folk Mafia, joining forces with the very people they'd stood on stage and lambasted for being so controlling, in the past....

Hmmmmmmm......


From Al:

"Mumford and sons will take care of themselves. So will Show of Hands. its the little people excluded by the folk mafia, who have been damaged."

Absolutely, Al. I agree with that sentiment 100%. There are some very spiteful and controlling folks in this world, believe me I've been doing battle with them for a very long time, so I know just how vitriolic they can be, and how determined to damage the reputation of anyone who dares to disagree with them.

I'm kinda stunned, to be honest, that they're even over here on Mudcat, because they've publicly stated how much they loathe this place..and of course, over on the fRoots board they regularly describe the posters here as 'fuckwits'

Great to know that these are the charming and loving people who are running so much of the folk world, eh?

Still, at least it means that those they support get to win Folk Awards year after year after year with no troubled waters ever rippling the careers of the Luvvies, who actually, imo, should have the guts to stand up themselves and say "You know what, we'd really like next year's Award to go to someone else, because this constant backing of us gives no help to any other artists out there...Thanks anyway."

I once loved Sidmouth Folk Week, Sidmouth International Festival, it's why I wrote 15,000 words about the first ever Folk Week, in a 'live' thread on the BBC, to drum up interest, to let the world see that Sidmouth WOULD survive...

At the time, I had no idea, being very naieve, that the very people who now run Sidmouth had been planning to take it over a few years down the road, and had actually wanted the festival to close down completely, so that the town would realise what they were missing....

The good men and true stepped in and saved Sidmouth, Gordon doing so with his own money, backing it 100%, knowing that if left to die, it may never rise again....HE saved that festival..and for that they stabbed him in the back...and the very folks who did it were.....yes, you guessed it, the Folk Mafia who surround the likes of Bellowhead et al...

It is something I will never forgive th em for, because that man was wondrous for Sidmouth...he alone saved it by doing what he did, because he loved Sidmouth with all his heart and soul.....I did too...but now I stay away, now I can't stand to be around it, because of those who now run it....

How sad is that????

And what a sorry state of affairs that folks within the folk world are so bloody embittered and controlling as to behave the way they did towards Gordon....and towards me.

This world is FILLED with wondrous music from so many OTHER people who never get a look in...and THAT is what angers me so much.


And by the way, George Papavgeris should be on the MAIN stage of most festivals...and he should be the winner of all sorts of Folk Awards too...Grossly overlooked...(sorry to embarrass you, George, but...it's true!)

Still, maybe next year they'll finally start to recognise Reg Meuross, George, Duncan McFarlane and a whole host of other artists too who've never before been given the recognition they so richly deserve...


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 08:27 AM

For your interest, website of embittered old fart who despite having spent a lifetime running folk clubs, doing support acts for free, providing PA's, putting itinerant folk musicianshas no right to resent that no folk radio station would play his music.

http://www.bigalwhittle.co.uk/


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 08:37 AM

Well, you have the advantage over me, Lizzie. Clearly because of the job that I do I cannot come and play in your sandpit, because I have my professional reputation and that of my festival to think about. I cannot be seen to engage in unseemly arguments with you, but that makes me (and people like Ian Anderson and Jim Moray, and the BBC, and the various other of your targets over the years) rather vulnerable to your attacks. People stumbling into one of your hysterical postings might assume they contain some truth, unless someone refutes them. So I would just like to say that I completely and utterly refute the version of events posted above, most of which is pure fantasy.

As you were.


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: theleveller
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 08:41 AM

"There must be young people out there who are sick and tired of the X Factor music scene as it is at the moment"

There are and several have been mentioned already e.g Kat Gilmore and Jamie Roberts, and The Old Dance School, to name just two.

There are plenty of youngsters around who are interested in performing but before they can start climbing the ladder (if that's what they want to do) they often have to overcome withering prejudice at the most basic level. Even as an old fart who has no interest in doing anything above a grass-roots level, I'm sick to death of having to endure snide remarks in singarounds about singer/songwiters from Captain Birdseye impersonators who bawl out shanties in loud raucous voices and think that they're cutting edge folk professionals because they once had a booking for a 10-minute slot at The Cod Stranglers and Fish Gutters Club in Grimsby. I've seen quite a few very talented youngsters walk out of singarounds and folk clubs because of this sort of negative attitude and I suspect that many of them either give up with the 'folk scene' at this stage or by-pass the grass roots by going straight for stage performances.

It's not the enlightened people who book innovative artistes for concerts, festivals etc. who are the problem; it's the arrogance of the miserable old bastards who act as self-appointed gatekeepers at the front gates of folk music.


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: Zen
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 08:48 AM

I think theleveller's post above (below) is quite the most sensible posting I've seen on Mudcat in a very long time. Hear, hear!


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 08:56 AM

"....I cannot be seen to engage in unseemly arguments with you, but that makes me (and people like Ian Anderson and Jim Moray, and the BBC, and the various other of your targets over the years) rather vulnerable to your attacks...."

For that please read 'I, and others, have now been stopped from constantly attacking you by Mudcat'


"...People stumbling into one of your hysterical postings might assume they contain some truth, unless someone refutes them. So I would just like to say that I completely and utterly refute the version of events posted above, most of which is pure fantasy...."

If you want me to trawl through all your postings to dig out some of the nastier things you've said about me, particularly where my marriage was concerned, please....just ask.....as no way do I put down things which cannot be verified.   It'll take me a while, but trust me, I'll find your words for you.

It's just a great shame that the old BBC board, the one before the now defunct one, disappeared, as that contained Ian Anderson's words about Show of Hands and Seth Lakeman having somehow managed to have 'got in under the radar'...which of course told everyone exactly what was happening in the folk world for years...

Radar Love, eh?   

If you're on the right side of the 'fence' the radar protects and supports you. If you're trying to break in, it alerts and 'the guards' come out with the AK47s filled with words that can do more damage than even Walmart's Ammunition...

Do me a favour...please.

And by the way, you never bothered about your reputation, or that of *your* festival when you slagged off some brilliant musicians on the BBC.

Good that you're now great buddies...and I hope you had the guts to at least apologise to them.

Ah, Folk Mafia Hypocrisy, don't you just love it, huh?


Yes, yes, I know, Joe..."Back off, Lizzie! Naughty Chair IMMEDIATELY!"


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 08:59 AM

Some of those self-appointed gate-keepers are also higher up the chain, levels.

Good post though...


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: GUEST,SteveT
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 08:59 AM

Ever thought of it this way?

Isn't it great that people get passionate about the music that they like? (In my opinion, particularly when that music is live.)


Who cares what music I like myself? I'm one of the many ones who are so little (see above) that I don't expect people to book me or go out of their way to listen to me, I just enjoy the music. I get to "English sessions" where they don't play Irish tunes because they don't like them:- I get to an "Irish session" where they don't play English tunes because …:- I'm off to a singaround this weekend where musical instruments are banned and regularly go to an almost instrument-free singaround where you probably won't get asked to sing a second time if you're not "in the tradition":- I go to pubs where we regularly have Elvis (sorry Mr Whittle, I mean Presley; I don't mean to let my folk mafia credentials show), Oasis and even Donovan (shock horror!) songs but you'd probably put the locals off, and be asked to leave by the landlord, if you tried anything unaccompanied - and I join in with all of it and thoroughly enjoy myself. I miss out the open mike evenings and the Klezmer sessions because I don't feel I can join in at the latter (don't know enough of the tunes) and I don't think the audience would particularly like my repertoire at the former.

OK, I listened to Mumford and Sons on You-tube and can say they're not my cup of tea (as consumed at many parents' evenings) but it was a Brits award they won not the freedom of Cecil Sharpe House so who cares and good luck to them if they can get people interested in playing rather than just listening.

So, perhaps I'm just lucky but there's no lack of diversity for me here. Keep on arguing that your choice of music is best but, more importantly, get out there and play and sing it whenever you can without expecting to be rewarded by more than a minimum of politeness and the pleasure of your own performance, that's what I say. To me it's always been more important than making money out of it. (OK I wouldn't have been good enough but just pretend.)


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 09:00 AM

Stop being cutesy with the "NaughtY Chair" bullshit.

This is the work of a dedicated and skilled troll with a willing bunch of seemingly helpless tenders who go after the same bait EVERY FUCKING TIME.


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Subject: RE: Mumford & Sons at the Brits Awards
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 09:00 AM

No, Lizzie, I am not banned from anything. But these posts are full of lies, they are provocative and they are attacks. I have the festival's reputation to think about as well as my own, and I will not be seen to be sinking to your level. You are clearly unwell and need some sort of help.

Because of this, I will have to ask for these posts (and any subsequent unprovoked attacks on me or the festival I work for) to be removed.


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Mudcat time: 19 September 11:27 AM EDT

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