Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre

Subject: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: RunrigFan
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 11:32 PM

I know this is a folk/blues site but one of my fave bands Corvus Corax records/has recorded medieval/folk songs so can it count?

This is La Filha Dou Ladre, the melody features in Braveheart:)

Here are the lyrics from Corvus Corax - Inter Deum Et Diabolum Semper Musica Estalbum from 1993 cd


Copied from a site as it's in old french and has grave accents

LA FILHA DOU LADRE



Mon paire m'a mandat au bósc

Au bósc culhir l'oliva

Dins lo bósc, polit bósc.

Ai tant culhit e reculhit

Que me siáu endormis

Ai tant dormit e redormit

Que la nuech má surpria.

Vén a passar gai chivalier

Lo bósc vos passariau

Dins lo bósc, polit bósc

Arrier, tirètz – vos chivalier

Prendiatz ma maladia

Dins lo bósc, polit bósc.

Lèu siáu filha d'un ladrier

Nat dins la ladraria

Dins lo bósc, polit bósc

De t'aver vist bèu chivalier

Me castara la vida

Dins lo bósc, polit bósc.



*Unbekannter Tradour
provençalisch 13.Jahrhundert


I dont have a translation

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: Monique
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 04:49 AM

This is not old French, this is Occitan! The traditional band Mont-Jòia (no longer existing) recorded a version of it in 1976 on their album "Cant e musica de Provença, 12th-20th centuries".
The present text was established from the one published in the early 1800's by Damase Arbaud and Rey-Dusseuil in "La confrérie du Saint-Esprit, chronique marseillaise de l'an 1828" in 1829. The song goes back to the 13th century.
In the version above "bòsc" is the standard Oc word but it's actually pronounced "boés" (bwehs). On the 5th line, it's not about standard-non standard, it should be "endormida/endurmia" because it's in the femenine, on the 7th line it should be "m'a" because it's present perfect tense, 11th line it should be "tiratz-vos" it's an imperative form of the verb "tirar" (1st group of conjugation), last line but one it's "me costarà" (vb. costar = to cost). If you listen to their rendition on YouTube you'll hear those words said properly.
There's an English translation on Mont-Jòia's web site that I copy below.

THE LEPER'S DAUGHTER
My father send me to the wood
To the wood to pick olives
My father send me to the wood
To the wood to pick olives
In the wood, pretty wood.

I gathered so many , so many I gathered
That I fell asleep
I gathered so many , so many I gathered
That I fell asleep
In the wood, pretty wood.

I slept so long, I slept so deep
That night fell upon me.
I slept so long, I slept so deep
That night fell upon me.
In the wood, pretty wood.

Along rode a merry Knight
"Let me help you cross the wood"
Along rode a merry Knight
"Let me help you cross the wood"
In the wood, pretty wood.

"Step back, pass you way merry Knight"
You would catch my disease
"Step back, pass you way merry Knight"
You would catch my disease
In the wood, pretty wood.

Leper's daughter I am
Born in the lazaret (lepers place or with lepers)
Leper's daughter I am
Born in the lazaret
In the wood, pretty wood.

Laying my eyes on you
Will cost me my life
Laying my eyes on you
Will cost me my life
In the wood, pretty wood.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: GUEST,Tim
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 03:14 PM

Those are the words from the album inlay

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 03:44 PM

Hello, Runrig Fan. Thanks for posting. We often talk about early music here.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: RunrigFan
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 04:51 PM

Song is here :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YsQJaB401Q

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 05:41 AM

Monique,

De t'aver vist bèu chivalier
Me costara la vida

Doesn't that mean: "To have seen you, handsome knight, will cost me my life"? I have the feeling that this has been corrupted by some ignorant folk processor, the woman's life expectancy not being affected at all, as far as leprocy is concerned (homi-/suicide is a different subject). Either of the following would sound more logical to me:

• The girl warns the knight that it may cost his life (correctly or as a ruse), whereupon the knight keeps his distance


• The girl warns the knight that it may cost his life (correctly or as a ruse), whereupon the knight (believing it or not) declares his readiness to die for his love, since without the woman he would die of a broken heart anyway


• The knight realises in time that it would cost his life, and either keeps his distance or declares his readiness to die for his love


• The knight realises too late that it will cost his life, and either complains about it or heroically accepts his fate.

The web site tells us about other versions supporting the ruse theory, thus the pronouns should just be swapped. What do you know and think?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: Monique
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 07:05 AM

Grishka, yes "De t'aver vist bèu chivalièr me costarà la vida" (this is how we'd spell it now) does mean what you say, it will cost her life.
My feeling is that either
- the verse is actually supposed to be intended for the audience and I see it as meaning he will kill her whatever the reason, probably because she should have stayed in the leper hospital (maybe "hospital" isn't exactly accurate!) instead of wandering about. I doubt that it could be because she could report him as behaving badly -maybe "to help to cross the wood" would be considered at that time on the same way as some drivers consider taking a female hitch-hiker in their car- but it could also be out of frustration because he couldn't "help her to cross the wood".
- or the verse is intended for the knight in the logic of her story, i.e. when she's back to the leper hospital they'll kill her for enfringing the rule, so he can leave her alone and let her go.
I don't think that it's one of those songs in which the young lady kills herself to avoid sex.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: Monique
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 07:29 AM

I'd want to add that there's a typo on the last verse but one, 1st word, it's "Ieu" (=I) not "Lèu" (= soon, early). Besides on the last verse, something that doesn't show in English because ajdectives don't agree... "Nat dins la ladraria" is masculine, the father was born in the leper hospital, we don't know about her -even if we can suppose that she was too.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 09:38 AM

Monique, thanks for your enlighting contribution.

Now I ask myself (and you) if that translation might be on the wrong track entirely: "ladre" could also translate robber, "ladraria": robbery or robber's cave, into which the father was born. Then the last verse would mean "If you try to touch me, I'll stab you, as we robbers in the forest are used to, or I'll call my dad to stab your posterior."

In any case, I cannot imagine a bèu chivalier wanting anything else but love or sex.

(BTW: needless to say that my Provençal amounts to nothing, but, like most tourists, I have been robbed in Italy.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 10:07 AM

... enlightening, of course. It seems I'm being robbed of my English as well.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: Monique
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 10:35 AM

Well "ladre" could be robber though I doubt "ladraria" would have been some robber's cave but you forgot "prendriatz ma maladia" (you'd catch my disease)-with an "r" after the "d" btw. Besides, the lyrics say "siáu filha d'un ladrièr" not "ladre" which is only in the title. So... who gave the title to the song and when? Even if the lyrics were established in the early 1800's "ladre" would mean more or less the same as now = leper or miser, the language hasn't changed much. There's no linguistical clue to help. It'd be interesting to have the lyrics in their original form (this one has a lightly different spelling for some words)

About a bèu chivalièr it's funny how literature paints a nice picture of them but they were first guys who could afford a war horse and while the Northern form of the word (chevalier, chivalier...) tells about "l'esprit chevaleresque", the Southern form of it (cavalier) tells about "des façons cavalières" which are as far as I know pretty coarse and rude manners! My take is than in real life, the Southern form was more accurate!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 10:38 AM

In the robbery theory, Prendiatz ma maladia would mean "You would get a taste of my evil character." (instead of catching the disease). Still, the pronouns in the last verse would have to be swapped.

Thus, the leprocy theory seems more probable. The polit bósc may be quite a harmless place such as an olive plantation near the lazaret, the knight just a friendly man. The girl warns him from a distance, as she is obliged to do, but adds that this will break her heart. She may otherwise be healthy and just in quarantine. We don't read about her mother and the rest of the medical record, but leprocy must be seen as a metaphor for love anyway (to be a worthy sujet for a troubadour). Feminists may complain about the woman being described as the infector.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: Monique
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 10:58 AM

"Prendriatz ma maladia" meaning "you'd get a taste of my evil character" is very far-fetched IMO.
I've always thought she was healthy and that the disease was just a trick to be left alone (I don't trust knights offering to cross a wood just out of chivalrous spirit, you see!) but I could be wrong. It doesn't seem to be some piece of "trobar clus", it's some "trobar lèu" with very simple syntax and vocabulary, I take it to mean just what it seems to mean.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 10:58 AM

Ladrier:

Tals cuia esser cortes entiers,
Qu'es vilans dels quatre ladriers
(Ranbaud d'Orange)

should mean: "He will be considered a perfect gentleman, who is as evil as four robbers."

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 11:05 AM

My leprocy theory of 17 Feb 11 - 10:38 AM is the only one which gives a reason for the girl to die, i.e. of a broken heart. The trick-in-the-deep-forest theory seems to have most support, but requires some change in the above lyrics to be logical, such as swapping pronouns, as I indicated in my first post.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: Monique
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 11:10 AM

Mind you, "ladrièr" also meant "side" (Cf Fr. latéral, Sp lado...)
Lit.: "He who thinks (believes) he is totally courteous (a perfect gentleman) and is evil on the four sides".

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: Monique
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 11:14 AM

Well, I didn't see her die at all, but if she were to die of love, it would be, IMO, because she was actually ill and then love would be impossible.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 11:33 AM

Monique, your idea of 11:10 AM coincides with all the other sources, so I must concede victory to you (particularly since the man himself thinks he is acceptable at court, whereas he is in fact relatively boorish - not necessarily evil).

11:14 AM: that's what I meant; in that interpretation she would either be really ill (in an early stadium) or really quarantined, the result would be the same.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: Monique
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 11:47 AM

Well, let's face it, by the time being, she'd have died anyway!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 02:02 PM

She would, but she didn't, because hero/in/es of fiction never die, even if their corpses are being described. We can just turn back the pages, resp. click "Restart", and shout: "Behind you!"

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 02:27 PM

I have heard the melody or one very similar with another song. Does Corvus Corax give any source?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: Monique
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 03:33 PM

Mont-Jòia recorded it with the same tune in 1976 and there's no mention of the origin of the music on the album sleeve, it just reads what I copied on my first post above.

Grishka, we didn't imagine that she could have been bluffing all the way through "de t'aver vist bèu chivalièr me costarà la vida" being just the final stroke to get rid of him while she had no intention to die at all, or at least any time soon.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: RunrigFan
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 04:15 PM

I have heard the melody or one very similar with another song. Does Corvus Corax give any source?

I know this

Wallace Courts Maron


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfYovzYN8ZU&feature=related

From 32 secs :)

This melody appears several times in the film :)


Princess theme

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fk8323r577w

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: RunrigFan
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 04:21 PM

Found this as well

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4iddO7wWGE

From 2:49 :)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: RunrigFan
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 04:33 PM

For the note in the album; it states the lyrics and then this

*Unbekannter Tradour
provençalisch 13.Jahrhundert

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 05:03 PM

Still no source for music. Early 19th C.?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: Monique
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 05:18 PM

I got it guys, it's there, in the book mentioned above.

*Unbekannter Tradour ,provençalisch 13.Jahrhundert = unknown ??? (there's no "Tradour" in German, it must be a typo/mispelling for troubadour), Provençal 13th century

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: RunrigFan
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 05:25 PM

From Inter Deum Et Diabolum Semper Musica Est

Monique I mistyped it :p :( it's actually Unbekannter Troubadour
provençalisch 13.Jahrhundert

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: RunrigFan
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 05:26 PM

Well Jahrhundert means century :)

13th Century

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 06:03 PM

Source of music still not stated (16th C.?.).
From the text, the lyrics are 13th C., but very few of the troubadour songs have been collected with music; most renditions have later melodies.
The music given on p. 90 is in much later transcription; I would guess that the 13th C. source (MS- location?) was without musical notation, but I couldn't find any information in the notes (of course I could have missed it; my French is notable by its absence).

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: Monique
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 06:11 PM

My bad: the title of the book in which the song was published in 1829 is "La confrérie du Saint-Esprit, chronique marseillaise de l'an 1228" (Hence 13th.C.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: Monique
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 06:52 PM

Source of music not stated at all, I can't for the life of me find a copy of the document mentioned above anywhere, it's not in the digital library of the BNF, nor in Archives.org or google books either. It doesn't sound medieval anyway. Troubadours' music: ~10% of the whole bunch of songs were collected with their music.
The way the lyrics are noted is a much later transcription too -. Most of the foreword is about the Provençal spelling (almost 150 years later... still accurate! -sigh!)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: RunrigFan
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 07:03 PM

http://www.ringmusik.com/index.php/en/component/cdcat/titledetail/26/9446/searchjing?iid=2

I see if I can dig up more info

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: Monique
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 07:42 PM

Reading the title of the song at the link Runrig just mentioned, I realized that the spelling of the title could be found as
La - filha/filho/fiho - dou/dóu/dòu/dau - ladre.
Good search, it's nearly 2am, decent people should be sleeping!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 02:42 PM

Doou is the article we were missing.

Here is Damase Arbaud's version, following a scan of the original print 1864. Arbaud gives us the first verse only in standard French. A transcriber tacitly replaces it from a version of different dialect (bos instead of bouesc). For want of a better source, I follow the latter - tant pis. Monique will probably tell us more. Note that in the other verses, standard French (italicised following Arbaud) is used to characterise the knight's effort to sound educated. (There were times when the slope of prestige went the other way, but they were over for Arbaud's witness.)

X:1
T:La filho doou ladre
C:trad. Provence
Q:"Allegro moderato" 1/4=120
K:Cdor
M:2/4
L:1/8
c2 c> e | d2 c2 | B2 c2 | G4 | c2 c> e | d2 c2 | B4 | G2>> G2 |\
w:Moun pai-re m'a man-da-do~au bos Au bos cul-hi l'óu-li-vo, Moun
d3 e | f> e d> e | g> f e> e | c3 d | B B c c | G2 =A =B | c4- | c2 z2 |]
w:pai-re m'a man-da-do~au bos Au bos cul-hi l'óu-li-vo, Dins lo bos, Pou-lit bos!_

LA FILHO DOOU LADRE

Damase Arbaud, "Chants populaires de la Provence", tome 2, page 90ff,
(1st verse patched by Reinat Toscano)

1.
Moun paire m'a mandado au bos
Au bos culhi l'óulivo,
Dins lo bos,
Poulit bos!
2.
N'ai tant culhi et reculhi
Que me siou endourmio.
3.
N'ai tant durmi et redurmi
Que la nuech m'a surprio.
4.
Oh! qu me passarie lou bouesc
Seriou sa douc' amio!
5.
Ven à passar gai chevalier:
Moi vous le passerie.
6.
N'en soun pas au mitan doou bouesc
Qu'un poutoun l'a surprio.
7.
— Tiretz-vous arrier, chivalier,
Prendriatz ma maladio.
8.
— Quelle maladie avez-vous,
Rosette, belle fille?
9.
Iou siou la filho d'un ladrie
Nat dins la ladrario.
10.
Quand agueroun passat lou bouesc
Roso se met' à rire.
11.
— De que risetz, Roso m'amour,
Rosette, belle fille?
12.
— Rise pas de vouestro beautat
Ni de vouestro sotiso,
13.
Rise d'aver passat lou bouesc
Comm' un' hounesto filho.
14.
— Belo, se vouriate retournar,
Cent écus vous darie.
15.
Moun beou moussu, quand l'on la ten,
Fau plumar la gallino.

My English translation, tentative:

1. My father sent me to the wood to pick olives.
2. I picked and picked until I fell asleep.
3. I slept and slept so that the night surprised me.
4. Oh! Whoever helps me to cross the wood, will have me for his sweetheart!
5. Along came a merry knight: I shall ensure that you cross it.
6. They were not yet in the middle of the wood, when she was kissed by surprise.
7. Keep away, knight, you would catch my disease!
8. What malady are you afflicted with, Rosette, beauteous maiden?
9. I'm the daughter of a leper, who was born in the lepers' asylum.
10. When they had passed the wood, Rosy began to laugh.
11. What are you laughing about, Rosy love, (uh, uh,) Rosette, beauteous maiden?
12. I neither laugh about your good looks nor about your stupidity.
13. I laugh about having passed the wood as an honest girl.
14. Tasty chick, if you'd come back, I'd pay you € 100.-.
15. My handsome sir, a hen must be deplumed while holding her.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: Monique
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 04:57 PM

Grishka, your translation is pretty good!
Line 14, "se vouriate retournar" literally translates as "if you wanted to turn back". I'd say that "retournar" is more "to turn back" than "to come back" meaning "once more" which would be "tournar"-period. "Tornar" (standard spelling) implies "again/once more" and is used where the French uses "re-Verb" (refaire, recommencer, repartir etc), I feel "retornar" as "to go/turn back".
This version is written in "Mistralian orthography" -actually Roumanille's- hence "doou".
I agree about the use of the French language to sound educated/to show an upper social position. In our most wide-spread bawdy song -Riu Chiu Chiu, not to be confused with Riu Riu Chiu!- the priest speaks in French.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: RunrigFan
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 08:37 PM

I love the comments; shame theres no translation in the inlay; neither is there one for a song sung by Corvus Corax Por Coi Bait Mes Maris :) They a group who sing in latin, old german and some french or Occitan and some classical pieces but mainly in latin :)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: Monique
Date: 03 Mar 11 - 02:28 AM

POR COI ME BAIT MES MARIS ?
(#24). 13th c. unknown trouvère

Por coi me bait mes maris ? (1)
Laissette
Je ne li ai rien meffait,
Ne riens ne li ai mesdit
Fors c'accoleir (2) mon amin (3)
Soulette.
Por cois me bait mes maris?
Laissette !

Et c'il ne mi lait dureir
Ne bone vie meneir
Je lou ferai cous clameir
A certes.
A certes.
Por coi me bait mes maris ?
Laissette !

Or sai bien que je ferai
Et coment m'en vengerai.
Avec mon amin geirai
Nuette
Por coi me bait mes mari ?
Laissette !


WHY DOES MY HUSBAND BEAT ME?

Why does my husband beat me?
Woe is me
I did nothing ill to him
I didn't speak ill of him
Apart from hugging my friend
(When I was) Alone
Why does my husband beat me?
Woe is me!

And if he forbids me to go on
And to lead a good/happy life
I'll have him declared a cuckold
For sure
For sure
Why does my husband beat me?
Woe is me!

I know well what I will do
And how I'll get my revenge.
I'll sleep with my friend
(All) Naked
Why does my husband beat me?
Woe is me!

I added the words in italics for better understanding.
(1) For those who know French, she wasn't bigamous. Old French had a declension (as had Old Occitan) "Mes maris" is a subject case. The masculine nouns (+ adjectives and determiners) behaved as they do now when they were objects (i.e. +"s" in the plural) while it was the other way round when they were subjects (i.e. +"s" in the singular).
(2) accoleir (to hug) is based on "col" = neck, so it's hugging someone by putting one's arms around his/her neck.
(3) ami is literally "friend" but meant lover, beloved, sweetheart.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: RunrigFan
Date: 03 Mar 11 - 04:24 AM

Ahh thanks ;)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 03 Mar 11 - 08:23 AM

In my post of 02 Mar 11 - 02:42 PM, the 14th verse is indeed most interesting. The baffled knight (as imagined by that 19th century witness) partially drops his educated French and uses the local dialect. In my translation I took the liberty to sketch colloquial language, which is of course a matter of taste.

The Écu was a coin current in France for centuries, originally of considerable value (gold). In its transsubstantiation ECU it was the predecessor of the Euro (€) currency.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: RunrigFan
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 08:23 PM

Glad it caused so much debate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: La Filha Dou Ladre
From: RunrigFan
Date: 26 Feb 21 - 08:48 PM

corvus corax thread joe, though is a poular song