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The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper

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GUEST,2CheersforTahir 16 Feb 11 - 08:41 AM
GUEST,2CheersforTahir 16 Feb 11 - 08:42 AM
GUEST,Richard I 16 Feb 11 - 08:59 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Feb 11 - 09:05 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 16 Feb 11 - 09:09 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 16 Feb 11 - 09:12 AM
Fred McCormick 16 Feb 11 - 09:25 AM
GUEST,Jon 16 Feb 11 - 09:31 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 16 Feb 11 - 09:41 AM
GUEST,Jon 16 Feb 11 - 09:45 AM
Spleen Cringe 16 Feb 11 - 09:54 AM
GUEST,leeneia 16 Feb 11 - 10:04 AM
GUEST 16 Feb 11 - 10:18 AM
Nigel Parsons 16 Feb 11 - 10:20 AM
Les in Chorlton 16 Feb 11 - 10:24 AM
bobad 16 Feb 11 - 10:25 AM
GUEST,Jon 16 Feb 11 - 10:30 AM
Nigel Parsons 16 Feb 11 - 11:02 AM
Jeri 16 Feb 11 - 11:06 AM
Lonesome EJ 16 Feb 11 - 11:20 AM
Jeri 16 Feb 11 - 11:23 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Feb 11 - 11:35 AM
Nigel Parsons 16 Feb 11 - 11:36 AM
GUEST 16 Feb 11 - 11:45 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Feb 11 - 12:01 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Feb 11 - 12:04 PM
GUEST,Eliza 16 Feb 11 - 12:13 PM
GUEST,2CheersforTahir 16 Feb 11 - 12:14 PM
GUEST,Eliza 16 Feb 11 - 12:16 PM
Lonesome EJ 16 Feb 11 - 12:27 PM
Acorn4 16 Feb 11 - 12:32 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Feb 11 - 01:09 PM
Jack Campin 16 Feb 11 - 01:10 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 16 Feb 11 - 01:13 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Feb 11 - 02:20 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Feb 11 - 02:28 PM
GUEST,Eliza 16 Feb 11 - 02:29 PM
GUEST,David E. 16 Feb 11 - 02:47 PM
Dave the Gnome 16 Feb 11 - 06:10 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Feb 11 - 06:38 PM
Jeri 16 Feb 11 - 06:55 PM
GUEST,David E. 16 Feb 11 - 11:52 PM
GUEST,Gerry 17 Feb 11 - 12:05 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Feb 11 - 03:19 AM
Jack Campin 17 Feb 11 - 07:56 AM
GUEST 17 Feb 11 - 08:20 AM
GUEST,2CheersforTahir 17 Feb 11 - 08:20 AM
GUEST,PenguinEgg aka 2CheersforTahir 17 Feb 11 - 08:26 AM
GUEST,Desi C 17 Feb 11 - 08:46 AM
Ringer 17 Feb 11 - 09:13 AM
GUEST,999 17 Feb 11 - 09:15 AM
GUEST,Eliza 17 Feb 11 - 12:32 PM
GUEST,999 17 Feb 11 - 12:35 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 17 Feb 11 - 12:38 PM
Brian May 17 Feb 11 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,999 17 Feb 11 - 01:16 PM
Little Hawk 17 Feb 11 - 01:58 PM
olddude 17 Feb 11 - 02:16 PM
GUEST,Penguin Egg aka 2CheersforTahir 17 Feb 11 - 03:00 PM
The Sandman 17 Feb 11 - 03:29 PM
olddude 17 Feb 11 - 03:39 PM
GUEST,Eliza 17 Feb 11 - 03:44 PM
Little Hawk 17 Feb 11 - 03:48 PM
olddude 17 Feb 11 - 03:48 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 17 Feb 11 - 03:59 PM
GUEST,Eliza 17 Feb 11 - 04:01 PM
olddude 17 Feb 11 - 06:15 PM
Little Hawk 17 Feb 11 - 06:27 PM
GUEST,Jon 18 Feb 11 - 12:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Feb 11 - 04:30 AM
Acorn4 18 Feb 11 - 04:54 AM
The Sandman 18 Feb 11 - 07:47 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 18 Feb 11 - 09:10 AM
Spleen Cringe 18 Feb 11 - 10:37 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Feb 11 - 11:01 AM
Acorn4 18 Feb 11 - 01:52 PM
GUEST 18 Feb 11 - 02:02 PM
GUEST,PenguinEgg aka 2CheersforTahir 18 Feb 11 - 02:05 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 18 Feb 11 - 02:18 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Feb 11 - 03:06 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Feb 11 - 03:20 PM
GUEST,Jon 18 Feb 11 - 03:30 PM
autoharpbob 18 Feb 11 - 03:49 PM
GUEST,PenguinEgg aka 2CheersforTahir 18 Feb 11 - 06:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Feb 11 - 09:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Feb 11 - 10:02 AM
Jack Campin 19 Feb 11 - 01:38 PM
Acorn4 19 Feb 11 - 03:02 PM
Acorn4 19 Feb 11 - 05:03 PM
olddude 19 Feb 11 - 05:17 PM
Jack Campin 19 Feb 11 - 06:03 PM
GUEST,Jon 19 Feb 11 - 06:12 PM
Acorn4 19 Feb 11 - 07:42 PM
Brian May 20 Feb 11 - 03:58 AM
GUEST,Jon 20 Feb 11 - 07:05 AM
GUEST,Desi C 20 Feb 11 - 08:29 AM
Vin2 21 Feb 11 - 08:53 AM
Mick Woods 25 Feb 11 - 08:34 AM
GUEST,ChrisP 25 Feb 11 - 03:03 PM
Nigel Parsons 25 Feb 11 - 03:31 PM
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Subject: Review: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,2CheersforTahir
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 08:41 AM

The Black Cloud of Islam Lyrics
Roy Harper

"I'm sick to the teeth of the news on the screen
of hisbullah scum and jihad the obscene
whose men plant the bombs and then live feeling free
to watch women and children be killed on T.V.
which satan delivers a child a death curse
in the name of a worn out collection of verse
I've not read the book so I cannot recite
but I'd bet Salman Rushdie is just about right
underneath the black cloud of islam
What kind of publicity needs so much blood
that's not for some sad diablical god
selling himself as a two-bit Macbeth
as the expect in sentencing cousins to death
and what kind of god can this be anyway
that you have to prostrate to him five times a day
with hate in your heart and a gun in your hand
is force the only thing to understand
underneath the black cloud of islam?
and the butchers who've got all this blood on their hands
are the ones who need god to be stood where he stands
blessing this kidnapping, murder and war
with books written hundreds of ages before
and woman in veils walking paces behind
doesn't sit easy in my mind
it speaks of oppression and no other choice
that rigid compliance with the loudest voice
underneath the black cloud of islam
You can put a lead bullet clean through this guitar
'cos I'm not overjoyed with the story so far
sharing a world with the nutters of god
is as good as being six feet under the sod
words that are written are all here to say
and these are the latest there are anyway
and I am the prophet so don't believe me
I'm the same as the old ones expect that I'm free
to give you a piece of my mind which is this
you're the worst of jehovas blind witlessnesses
with your feet in the door of the deepest abyss
which is underneath the black cloud of islam"

    Note from Joe Offer: By rights, I should delete this thread because it was started by someone using a false identity. Please keep in mind that you may post at Mudcat under one name, and only one name.
    The original poster may or may not be Penguin Egg, as claimed below. Whatever the case, the poster's identity is false, and is not to be trusted.
    -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-


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Subject: RE: Review: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,2CheersforTahir
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 08:42 AM

What do people think of this song? A damning indictment of an intolerant religion or a case of Islamophobia?


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Richard I
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 08:59 AM

Very clumsy lyrically. Too many forced rhymes for my taste.

No doubt the song refers to very real feelings about brutality in the name of religion, and good on the singer for tackling that subect. But I don't think it's appropriate simply to trot out a series of stereotypes about Islam. In short, I think that songs should be about more than "stuff I saw on the news". I'd be more inclined to care about this song if there showed evidence of direct experience or, at the very least, research.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 09:05 AM

It's Islamophobia. He's demonising a billion people who by sheer accident of birth were born into Islam. No wonder many Muslims feel that their backs are constantly to the wall. It's ignorant bigotry.

Steve (atheist)


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 09:09 AM

How do you feel about this videoclip ?


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 09:12 AM

Except for the fact that it's actually funny.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 09:25 AM

Appalling shite. Mr Harper should remember that every religion has its bigots. Some of them end up writing this kind of crap.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 09:31 AM

From Wikipedia.

"Harper was born in 1941 in Rusholme, a suburb of Manchester. After the death of his mother, Muriel, during childbirth, he was raised in Blackpool by his father and stepmother, with whom he became disillusioned because of her Jehovah's Witness beliefs. Harper's anti-religious views would later become a familiar theme within his music."


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 09:41 AM

Expect a bit better from Mr Harper. I'm a tad disappointed.

I have Muslim friends, I work with Muslims and whilst irreligious myself, respect that people of any faith are following a moral compass.

I don't recognise my friends in any of that. None I know wear a veil other than one who wears it when attending prayers, none of them walk behind their husbands and to my knowledge are saddened when the media tar them with the same brush as those who use religion as an excuse for their more temporal issues. Jihad is just that, an excuse to appeal to peoples' faith in order to compel them to do the deeds of those hungry for power.

There are parallels in most organised religions, including (very much so) Christianity.

When my mother in law goes to church, I don't expect her to be attending brain washing sessions on how to oppress minorities, yet the Bishops love to push their bigotry on the telly?

Same with Islam. it is a way of life, a moral code and is being exploited by those who see religion as a tool. T'was ever thus.

A bit sad in the meantime for Mr & Mrs Khan down the street who want to make friends and get out more but have been brought up in a society where they are looked down on by others. But that's Western openness for you......


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 09:45 AM

S-R, what has your largely anti Christain rant to do with this?

The song is written by an anti religion person and appears to attack Islam.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 09:54 AM

Conclusive proof that the old cricketer has finally left the crease...


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 10:04 AM

By the time a person is 16, s/he ought to realize that criminals and warlords cloak their evil deeds in a thin veil of hypocrisy. Whether it's a quack selling useless medicines in the name of 'freedom of therapy' or whether it's al-Queda killing shoppers in the name of Islam, it's all evil and it's all b.s.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 10:18 AM

(I typed out a post before, but seem to have lost it. Hopefully this isn't a repeat post)
Roy Harper apparently wrote this song in 1989 in the wake of the angry response to Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses. He explains his own reasons here:
http://www.royharper.co.uk/blog/?p=127
It's essentially a lengthy diatribe on religious misinformation. I don't think these broader views justify misrepresentation of Islam, but people may find it interesting to read.

It's interesting to note that this song has been picked up and used by British National Party types for their own purposes; see, for example
http://wiganpatriot.blogspot.com/2010/01/black-cloud-of-islam-roy-harper.html
I guess this explains why we need a "folk against fascism" campaign. Roy Harper, whatever his intentions, plays into the hands of extremists when he spreads misinformation and uses inflamatory language like this.

A lesson to us all, I guess: Use your brain before you open your mouth.
    Please note that anonymous posting is no longer allowed at Mudcat. Use a consistent name [in the 'from' box] when you post, or your messages risk being deleted.
    Thanks.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 10:20 AM

Am I alone in thinking that if these thoughts had not been expressed in song/rhyme they would have been would have been relegated to BS?

And if they had been, the thread could not have been started by a 'Guest'.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 10:24 AM

Fundamental problem:

How can we treat with respect groups of people who do not respect people within their own group.

I mention no specific group

L in C#


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: bobad
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 10:25 AM

You're right Nigel, only PC threads should be allowed.

Long live freedom of speech!


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 10:30 AM

I think Nigel meant this topic (even though it refers to a song) is a BS topic rather than a musical one. If that is what he meant, I agree with him.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 11:02 AM

That is what I meant, John.
This is political comment posing as a musical discussion, and guests are prevented from starting political comment discussions.

Cheers
Nigel


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 11:06 AM

It's about a song, Nigel You were well aware of that when you logged out and started this thread.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 11:20 AM

Jeri is right.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 11:23 AM

Performers take risks with what they sing. This one was a big risk. There aren't many things that would make me walk out of a performance, and I never have done so. This song would.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 11:35 AM

I'd imagine that Wafa Sultan would agree with most of the lines in that song, actually. But then she's not afraid to stand up and shout out about the evil that has taken over some parts of Islam at the moment...

And I think that is what Roy Harper is writing about, not about Mr. and Mrs. Khan next door.

As I said in another thread, it's way past time for all of us, far from walking out, or walking away, to stand beside Mr. and Mrs. Khan and all their good neighbours, family and friends, to rid Islam of the evil that has caused those words to be written, because sadly, whether we like it or not, there's a great deal of evil being done in the name of Allah in our times...


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 11:36 AM

Jeri:
It's about a song, Nigel You were well aware of that when you logged out and started this thread.
I resent the suggestion that I started this thread. I'm sure Joe, or some of the mud-elfs will be able to confirm that this is not the case. I can see no reason for your allegation & would appreciate its withdrawal!

I am happy to post here under my own name, with no reason for that sort of subterfuge.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 11:45 AM

"As I said in another thread, it's way past time for all of us, far from walking out, or walking away, to stand beside Mr. and Mrs. Khan and all their good neighbours, family and friends, to rid Islam of the evil that has caused those words to be written, because sadly, whether we like it or not, there's a great deal of evil being done in the name of Allah in our times..."

I'm all for solidarity with people who are suffering, BUT I don't see how you're hoping to stand alongside Muslims if you're singing songs that directly insult their religion.

Calling the Koran "a worn out collection of verse"
(then admitting "I've not read the book so I cannot recite
but I'd bet Salman Rushdie is just about right")
is a mindless attack on the sacred book of a religion.

Singing "what kind of god can this be anyway
that you have to prostrate to him five times a day
with hate in your heart and a gun in your hand"
Is an insult to all who perform their daily prayers.


This is not about whether or not we should be able to criticise Islam or any other religion in song. It's the MANNER in which he has chosen to frame the attack. Roy Harper's words are bigotry, plain and simple. He has chosen incendiary language, and it is little wonder that BNP members are the kind of people who post this song on their blogs.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 12:01 PM

A bigoted diatribe which, as Peter Laban pointed out, could equally have been levelled at the Catholic Church (as a whole, considering the role of the heirarchy in covering up, and even facilitating the rape of children over generations).
Whatever you might think of any religion (I seldom do), stereotyping all who fall under its influence in the way this somewhat inept piece of doggeral does is comparable with the worst of racism.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 12:04 PM

Listen to Wafa's videos, 'guest'...watch and listen to her...then go to the 'Former Muslims United' site and read what they have to say...

Video on 'Former Muslims United'

These people know FAR better than you, me and even Roy Harper, as to what is actually going on...and the people here who've dared to speak out against Islam are now living in fear of their lives...which is one of the reasons why the Good Guys in Islam stay so quiet, because Sharia Law states that anyone who leaves Islam, or who dares to speak out against it, can be killed by other Muslims...

Cool, huh?

If you think that's right, then God help us all, whomsoever your God may be...


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 12:13 PM

My husband is a Muslim, and I don't like the tone of these lyrics at all, they condemn all Muslims, whereas the majority are peaceful and gentle people. The women are not necessarily oppressed, and what's wrong with praying five times a day? One could write an equally vicious condemnation of, say, Christians during the Spanish Inquisition or The Crusades. However, I would stand by the right of anyone to express their opinion, no matter how bigoted, misguided or full of hate. Someone with this point of view and this degree of hate must have a reason, perhaps fear, and resentment of the heinous acts of terrorists and extremists seen on the News. What disturbs me most is that such a song could incite people to hate, and behave in a cruel and aggressive manner to all Muslims. That's dangerous.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,2CheersforTahir
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 12:14 PM

I am the one who originally posted the lyrics to the song. I don't know who Nigel is. I put it here and not in BS because it is a song, albeit, a political song.

As a song, I don't know whether it is any good or not. I would have to hear it sung, but it's sentiments I totally agree with. I cannot understand why the left have taken up the cause of Islamic extremism, which is in effect what they are doing. Look at Islamic countries where Muslims hold power: Public executions and amputations for criminals, stoning to death of adulaters (as happened in Afghanistan a couple of weeks ago), the persecution of apostates, with the death penalty imposed for such "crimes", and on and on. What do the left say about all this behaviour in Islamic countries? Nothing. They are mute.

As for Islamophobia, that is just a ruse by Islamists to stop criticism of their religion. They want to ban The Satanic Verses. If they succeed, and they may with the help of the left, then Hitchens will be banned, Dawkins will be banned, Sam Harris will be banned, Tom Paine will be banned, and all in the name of combating Islamophobia. I have no phobia about Islam. I hate the religion, but I do not hate Muslims, many of whom just want to live their lives and follow their religion without hindrance. Of course, we should make a distinction Islam and Muslims. It is Islamophobia which blurs the difference, and deliberately so too.

There is nothing racist about hating Islam, but there is something distasteful about playing the racist card when criticising a religion that is so brutal.

Still, it is interesting reading all the opinions.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 12:16 PM

I might add that I HAVE read ALL the Koran in translation, and if other people did, they might be better informed as to the true tenets of this religion.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 12:27 PM

A bigoted diatribe which, as Peter Laban pointed out, could equally have been levelled at the Catholic Church (as a whole, considering the role of the heirarchy in covering up, and even facilitating the rape of children over generations).
I am no proponent or apologist for the Catholic Church, but as far as I know no priest, bishop, or pope has made a statement that child rape is a good thing, and should be pursued by the faithful. Numerous Muslim clerics, including the Ayatollah Khomeini, have decreed that jihad be declared on individuals or nations and have condoned violence on these people in the name of God. This has created a perception that such announcements are neither highly unusual nor widely condemned within the Islamic World.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Acorn4
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 12:32 PM

I was under the impression that the Koran wasn't supposed to be translated.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 01:09 PM

"no priest, bishop, or pope has made a statement that child rape is a good thing,"
No they haven't, but priests unquestionably did rape children and bishops unquestionably covered up their crimes, often moving the rapist on to other parishes to 'keep up the good work'. Quite often the reporting of abuse to a church official led to the reporter being verbally attacked and threatened with eternal damnation, and when victims reported abuse, they were often treated to lectures on sex education. Blaming the victim for 'placing temptation in my path' was far from uncommon.
When reports of incidents reached the Vatican, the Church heirarchy actively hindered any action against the perpetrators and consistently refused to co-operate when the shit finally hit the fan.
The fact that nobody in the top echelons have actually 'fessed up' or verbally defended the rapists is more than a little academic really.
To date there had been no official acknowledgement by the the Church as a body of the part it played in abuses that were carried out for decades and possibly centuries.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 01:10 PM

Could somebody look up the IP of the original poster and let us all know who it is?


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 01:13 PM

I didn't want to make this about the Catholic Church. The intention of the link I posted was to show it's very very easy to stereotype a whole religion based on the crimes of some. The only thing, the video shows a sense of humour while the song, well, does not.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 02:20 PM

I hate the religion, but I do not hate Muslims, many of whom just want to live their lives and follow their religion without hindrance

That is very thoughtful of you, but you must realise that smearing Islam as you do in your other remarks, as with that song, is exactly the kind of behaviour that prevents ordinary Muslims from living their lives without hindrance. There may be many negative aspects of Islam, and, believe me, I'm no fan of that or of any religion, but every time we mention Islam in a negative context (which is almost a party game these days) we make life more difficult for the hundreds of millions of people who are only Muslims by sheer accident of birth.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 02:28 PM

From Nigel:

"Jeri:
.......
I resent the suggestion that I started this thread. I'm sure Joe, or some of the mud-elfs will be able to confirm that this is not the case. I can see no reason for your allegation & would appreciate its withdrawal!

I am happy to post here under my own name, with no reason for that sort of subterfuge."


I hope you get an apology, Nigel...and a public one at that.


I was called a 'dedicated and skilled troll' earlier on. Maybe she's having a bad day? Whatever though, I too felt her comments were out of order.

Hope tomorrow's better for you, Jeri.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 02:29 PM

Thank you Steve. As you so rightly say, this bigotry makes life difficult for the ordinary Muslims (like my kind and gentle husband).


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,David E.
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 02:47 PM

"...every time we mention Islam in a negative context we make life more difficult for the hundreds of millions of people who are only Muslims by sheer accident of birth."

You know who makes life difficult for these people? Radical Islam terrorists who decapitate, bomb, maim, threaten, oppress and brutalize in their religion's name, not the people who are reacting to it.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 06:10 PM

Oh come on...

This is Roy Harper we are talking about, The guy who's immortal lines

Watford gap, Watford Gap
Plate of grease and a load of crap


Got him banned from the BBC.

This is the guy who nearly died from a lung disiese after giving a sheep the kiss of life.

He must be laughing his arse off to how many people he has wound up. Does anyone seriously believe he wrote the song in ernest?

DeG


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 06:38 PM

"...every time we mention Islam in a negative context we make life more difficult for the hundreds of millions of people who are only Muslims by sheer accident of birth."

You know who makes life difficult for these people? Radical Islam terrorists who decapitate, bomb, maim, threaten, oppress and brutalize in their religion's name, not the people who are reacting to it.


Sorry, mate, but you've just fallen into the same trap. What do you mean by "radical Islam?" Do you not realise that the people to whom you refer are seldom, if ever, doing their dirty deeds in the name of Islam, whatever they say to try to get some false divine legitimacy? They do what they do for the same reasons as everyone else who does bad things, for political/military motives. Stop saying sloppy, lazy things like "radical Islam" and say precisely who it is you wish to criticise, Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, whoever. You don't talk about "radical Jews" attacking Gaza, do you? You have forgotten what harm that kind of talk did in the decades leading up to the 1930s and 40s. The same kind of talk is causing ordinary Muslims, in their hundreds of millions, to feel that they constantly have their backs to the wall, for no other reason that they were were born into Islam and have to endure the kind of intolerance that your intemperate language personifies.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 06:55 PM

Of course it's silly to think he was serious. This is from Roy Harper's blog:
I contend that the black cloud of Islam fell upon millions of people exactly 900 years ago, and hasn't been raised again since.
You should read it for yourselves though. It's anti-ALL religion, but Islam was the target at the time and place he wrote the song.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,David E.
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 11:52 PM

"...and have to endure the kind of intolerance that your intemperate language personifies."

I think you are putting more thought in to this than the murderous people who commit the acts Steve. Which is fine, but I stand by my comment. But I'm old and set in my ways and wouldn't stand at an Unthanks concert either. Peace.

David E.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 12:05 AM

I couldn't find much discussion of Holly Near's song, I Ain't Afraid, on Mudcat. I think it makes an interesting comparison with the Roy Harper song. Here's an unusual recording of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80nqk2164tI Maybe a more standard recording: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsWAXvfN3eY&feature=related


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 03:19 AM

"I didn't want to make this about the Catholic Church."
Neither did I Peter, but I did wish to make the point that the very nature of all religions which operate on a basis of mystical blackmail (do as you're told or you will be eternally damned), makes them open to abuse - even here in the (enlightened?) west.
Until religion becomes entirely a matter of personal choice and not impressed onto our subconcious before we are old enough to think, and until religious organisations are excluded from weilding secular power and influence, this will remain the case.
There are those in any society who will hate, fear and wish to persecute anybody different from themselves. Garbage like Harper's song really doesn't help, no matter what his original intention might have been.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 07:56 AM

I'm not on Facebook, but from what I can find elsewhere on the web, Roy Harper has had nothing to do with with Folk Against Fascism.

Which, for a folk musician whose work has been appropriated by fascists, seems rather significant.

WHICH SIDE ARE YOU ON, Roy?


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 08:20 AM

"..you must realise that smearing Islam as you do in your other remarks, as with that song, is exactly the kind of behaviour that prevents ordinary Muslims from living their lives without hindrance." Steve, not really, I see nothing that prevents Muslims living their lives without hindrance. I appreciate that a lot of Muslims feel put-upon at the moment, which is regrettable, and is a good reason why, those like me, should firmly distinguish between ordinary Muslims and Islam itself. However, since the Iranian revolution, 9/11, and for those of us in Britain, the Salmon Rushdie Affair, Islam has pushed itself to the fore of modern politics and demands a response from those of us who take an interest in politics.

What remarks should I make about The Satanic Verses? Should I stay silent when Salmon Rushdie has to go into hiding because the religious head of Iran has put a contract on his head? Should I stay silent about the couple who were stoned to death in Afghanistan last week for adultery? When I see another public execution in Iran carried out in the name of sharia law, should I again stay silent? When I go on a march against the war in Iraq, do I stay silent when I see the anti-war movement get taken over by Islamasists, with their own quite separate religious agenda?

Steve, these are not small matters, but lie right in the heart of the debate in modern politics. Of course I would like to separate my dislike of Islam from that of Muslims, but the invention of Islamophobia makes that increasingly difficult - Muslims themselves seem to be deliberately blurring the line, with politicians on the left supporting them -Galloway, Livingston, Benn, etc. I fully realise that the BNP and their fellow travellers are making political capital out of the wave of distrust against Islam, but that doesn't mean to say the rest of us have to remain silent, simply that we should be careful that the target remains Islam and not the scapegoating of Muslims.

After all, I cannot stand the Old Testament God, but that does not make me anti-Semitic, does it?


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,2CheersforTahir
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 08:20 AM

I forgot to put my guest name for the last one, for which I apologise.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,PenguinEgg aka 2CheersforTahir
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 08:26 AM

The reason that I sign in as a guest, and it does seem to trouble people for some reason, is that I cannot post under my usual name of Penguin Egg, because the system will not allow me. I chose the name 2CheersforTahir because I thought it funny.

    As you can see, people don't take your name masquerade as funny at all - especially when the discussion is on a controversial subject. You may use one name, and only one name, when posting at Mudcat. If you have trouble logging in, contact me by e-mail.
    -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 08:46 AM

I for one am not afraid to applaud it. I am an ethnic minority in a foreign country myself (irish living in England) from a land raped pilaged, starved and murdered by British, and well used to terrorism. But while this country was highly racist me us when we first came here, we came at a time when our own politicians were starving us to. England gave us an millions like it a home. We built much of modern Brtitain and our musicians led the way in sharing our culture and enjoying the culture of Britain. The racism I encountered has largely gone, of course there will always be an ignorant minority who hate all foreigners and they simply need to breed out of existence. BUt where I do see real racism now from the Muslim community. What you saw on the Channel 4 docu the other night, not only goes on in other such schools, but in Mosques, and so called 'moderate' Muslim web sites day in and day out. There is no real reason for their terrorist activities except what I have to assume is a inbred lust to murder! I was bor a catholic and when I realised it's teachings were warped, fictional and abusive, I had no trouble in turning my back on it. Why then if Muslims really believe the Koran is telling them to stone women, hang and behead children,observe laws that allow rape, why do they WANT to follow what normal sane people can see is plain evil and sociopathic behaviour.

I am not a racist and will not accept being called one, I condem equally these right win so called 'English' league morons and I know many good Muslim people. But please show some respect to the country that gave you a home or were born in, because for all it's troubles, and yes we now have a filthy corrupt government, it is still one of the best in the world, and it needs more songs like this, or the cup final in May will once host vast public beheadings which is happening already in places like Iran


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Ringer
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 09:13 AM

"...and yes we now have a filthy corrupt government..."

Whaddya mean, NOW? The previous government was "filthy corrupt", and the one before that, and so ad infinitum.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 09:15 AM

I was under the impression that the Koran wasn't supposed to be translated.


Acorn, if you google

koran in english, you`ll find lots of translations. I`m afraid your impression is incorrect. I had the book until about fifteen years ago. I gave it--with about a dozen different versions of the bible and a book of morman--to a public library.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 12:32 PM

Whether or not the Koran is supposed to be translated (and I have no idea about that) I bought a copy years ago, translated into English, from a Muslim student group while visiting Cambridge. As I don't speak or read Arabic, it's the only way I can understand what it says. I like to try and learn about the source of things before I form a judgment. I also have several books of commentaries and guides about Islam. Before this, I have to admit I was totally ignorant.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 12:35 PM

You are open minded, Eliza.

Frankly, I found all three books to be good in some ways and terrible in others. In the hands of bad interpreters--by that read evil--they are ordnance waiting for a place to happen. imo.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 12:38 PM

Yup, I'm with you on that, 999.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Brian May
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 01:00 PM

As a racist bigot, I'd best not comment ;o)


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 01:16 PM

Who called you a racist bigot, Brian?


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 01:58 PM

God, what a piece of classic troll-bait this thread is, not to mention the dumbass song that inspired it. ;-D Pretty funny, actually, if you look at the funny side of it (which I do).

Roy Harper has made a spectacular contribution to the fertile field of recreational outrage by writing that song, and with any luck he may yet wangle it into a fulltime career on some American "news" (ha! ha!) and current affairs show, as he is just in the right emotional ballpark for that sort of thing. Way to go, man. Work on that ulcer, sharpen those festering resentments and grievances, and enjoy every minute of it if that's what turns you on.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: olddude
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 02:16 PM

Any faith that is personal only is a beautiful thing. It makes us look at the world and at others as God's masterpiece of creation. Do harm to others you do harm to yourself and God. Religious organization as is, becomes political and then subject to the corruption of leaders and men who hold power. The weak follow leaders, the strong follow God. That is true in all religions. If it is not in the heart of the person to know what is right by God's law instead of listening to some leaders try to tell you or interpret for you, then you by definition, have no faith and hence will do things against the will of God .. all religions. And that includes those with no religious beliefs also. The reverence of life (all forms)is within everyone by birth ... from God .. people know right from wrong but some choose to follow leaders instead. That is the problem


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg aka 2CheersforTahir
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 03:00 PM

Little Hawk, I posted it to start a debate. It is as simple as that. Why do you think it is Troll-bait?


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 03:29 PM

there are some things in Harpers song,   that I do agree with, although I agree it is a mistake to lump all Muslims together , just as it is wrong to stereotype all christians.
do people object to this song?

Artist: Donovan lyrics
Title: Poke At The Pope


Have you ever seen a picture of Pope Paul?
Have you ever asked yourself this question,
Would you trust this man with your soul now?
Would you trust this man? ask yourself now

His eyes are sunken and his cheeks are hollow
While you dig the poor of the world they follow
He hoarding up their gold in the Vatican
Would you trust this man? ask yourself now

A poke at the Pope, that's what we're havin'

Ave Maria, Ave Maria...

Do you remember when the floods hit Italy?
How the things they treasured most were destroyed
All the paintings and the worshipped images
'Cos they lost their faith in the real God

He's goin' down and he's goin' down fast
You really didn't think the ignorance could last
All the little children are learning
And the constellation is turning.

A poke at the Pope, that's what we're havin'

Mumbling by the tumbling tide
The kind of America humbly cried
Save my soul, save it soon!
The king of America fell in swoon

Oh yea, my honey, Oh yea my honey...
Have you ever seen a picture of Pope Paul?
Have you ever asked yourself this question,
Would you trust this man with your soul now?
Would you trust this man? ask yourself now

His eyes are sunken and his cheeks are hollow
While you dig the poor of the world they follow
He hoarding up their gold in the Vatican
Would you trust this man? ask yourself now

A poke at the Pope, that's what we're havin'

Ave Maria, Ave Maria...

Do you remember when the floods hit Italy?
How the things they treasured most were destroyed
All the paintings and the worshipped images
'Cos they lost their faith in the real God

He's goin' down and he's goin' down fast
You really didn't think the ignorance could last
All the little children are learning
And the constellation is turning.

A poke at the Pope, that's what we're havin'

Mumbling by the tumbling tide
The kind of America humbly cried
Save my soul, save it soon!
The king of America fell in swoon

Oh yea, my honey, Oh yea my honey...


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: olddude
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 03:39 PM

It's music, all music is designed to create some emotion. Naw I don't like the song at all don't agree with it hence don't want to hear it or discuss it .. but it is just one musicians work. Sometimes people do outlandish things just to get a rise of of people. I never been a big fan of Harper ... I freely admit I like the guitar work on "Same old Rock" or whatever that song was called, pretty cool work. Never paid much attention to the lyrics however. I support his right to his opinions even though they are not mine in anyway and the message is wrong thinking ... political songs don't do much for me in any time frame actually .. even traditional


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 03:44 PM

Olddude, that's a very interesting viewpoint, that a religion is better followed personally rather than in a group directed by a leader. You've made me think. The Christian Church seems to be group-based, and 'led'. Islam has the Imams and prayers in community. What then is the role of the leader? Perhaps to exhort, encourage, teach, admonish, make decisions? And can these things be done on an individual basis? I do see that extremism and terrorism can only exist if fed and motivated by the group and the militant leaders. And many a holy person (of whatever persuasion) has lived quietly in solitude and become close to their God. As you say, 'a beautiful thing'. I shall have to think some more about your viewpoint, thank you for posting it!


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 03:48 PM

On the one hand, Penguin Egg, it is a worthy subject for a debate.

On the other hand, it's likely to draw forth all the various cranks on this forum who have a major chip on their shoulders about this specific issue...an emotional problem, in other words...and bring them together to take potshots at each other and dig themselves deeper into their emotional sinkhole. That's why I say it's marvelous troll bait. I'm not necessarily implying that you are a troll for starting the thread, though.

I'd basically been ignoring this thread for the longest time, because I figure it's usually wiser to avoid getting drawn into such threads. It chews up a lot of one's time and energy to no good purpose, and it frequently leaves a person feeling a lot worse than if they'd done something else instead. But some people enjoy it. For those that do, that's fine...that's what they want.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: olddude
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 03:48 PM

Eliza
my dear friend, I will attend church and enjoy it when it suits me. I have a friend who is a kind and wonderful person. He is a Methodist minister. When I visited him a few years ago in San Diego he took me to his church .. I said it was beautiful. He then visited me a few years later .. wanted to see my church. I took him to the overlook where he could gaze down at the Lake, the farms, the trees. He turned to me and said "You win, You win"

That is the difference between religion and faith I think.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 03:59 PM

Yup, got it in one, Dan.

For me, religion is about control, caused by guilt and fear.

Faith is something you are born with, which needs no walls, no church, no mosque, no rule books, no regulations, no punishments..

It simply is.

Love your story about looking down on the Lake...far closer to God outside, than in.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 04:01 PM

olddude, very true, there IS a difference between Religion and Faith. Terrorism and hating Muslims have no part in either. And Faith is something which draws us close to our God, whether in church or out among nature, in fact wherever we may be. People are so ready to put God in a box and to label Him. They also sometimes behave as if they have an exclusive personal telephone link to the Almighty. I think God is too immense to be categorised by a particular religion, sect or denomination. But perhaps we need these structures as we are small and limited in our understanding.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: olddude
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 06:15 PM

by the way, my take is Islam is a beautiful, loving and peaceful religion as is Christianity ... it is man who distorts it ... not God. It is only man following man who does evil things ..


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 06:27 PM

Good one about the lake, Olddude. ;-)


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 12:50 AM

Eliza, to try to explain from my POV,

Olddude, that's a very interesting viewpoint, that a religion is better followed personally rather than in a group directed by a leader. You've made me think. The Christian Church seems to be group-based, and 'led'. Islam has the Imams and prayers in community.

From the Christian side, it is taught in the bible that one should have company with other Christians and it is felt it is best not to go it alone - we need the support of others. Here is one quote from our leader (who we believe is Christ)

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them."

I am not aware of any requirement to belong to any particular church and at least these days many Christians (including myself) consider themselves to be non denominational, ie. although the church attended may be Roman Catholic, methodist, etc. we are not tied in that way.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 04:30 AM

Bono has been getting flak for supporting the song about shooting Boers.
Boers has become a derogatory word for whites in S Africa.
It has been described as a hate song, but he likens it to Irish rebel songs.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12444061


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Acorn4
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 04:54 AM

It's a shame a discussion on Roy Harper's lyrics has just focused on this song. It also seems incredible that he'll be 70 in June!


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 07:47 AM

the point is that his objections to the religion Muslim is not based on race it is based on religion,some of his points I agree with, it is a religion that discourages womens equality .
During the song he also criticises jehovahs witnesses, he is also factually right when he mentions the death threat to Salman Rushdie[for daring to criticise the religion], where he is wrong is when he gives the impression that all   muslims subscribe to fatwahs and that all muslims interpret the koran in the same way, they do not, however his criticisms have nothing to do with racism , but to do with certain interpretations of the koran, he is not a racist bigot, however he is misinformed when he stereo types all muslims in one way.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 09:10 AM

I've decided you are all wrong. Mr Harper included.

Cos you are all ignoring the one true religion, so are all heathens.



Sounds bad that, doesn't it? Except that is what I read into most debates around religion. Yes, Islam like all the Abrahamic faiths doesn't like the idea of people not following their flavour. Yes, it is easy to brainwash young fools (and stupid old men) into believing metaphysical answers to temporal problems, usually including destroying anybody who disagrees with you, and yes...

They are all wrong because there is no such thing as ruddy god.

But that doesn't mean people cannot get on with their lives in peace, following a tradition based on a moral code. Lyrics like that just don't help, they really don't. And coming from an otherwise respected songsmith, it's a pity he doesn't use his skill and knowledge to paint with a fine point sable brush instead of a yard brush.


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Subject: Lyr Add: I HATE THE WHITE MAN (Roy Harper)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 10:37 AM

Acorn4, this was always one of my favourites. In fact, the entire "Flat, Baroque and Berserk" album was brilliant.

I HATE THE WHITE MAN
by Roy Harper


Far across the ocean in the land of look and see
There once was a time for you and me
Where the winds blow sweetly and the easy seas flow still
And where the barefoot dream of life can laugh and cry its fill
Where slot machine confusion and the plastic universe
Are objects of amusement in the fiction of their curse
And where the crazy white man and his tear-gas happiness
Lies dead and long since buried by his own fantastic mess

For I hate the white man and his plastic excuse
Oh I hate the white man and the man who turned him loose...

And the reins of coloured thunder of the stallion of the dawn
Ride the coal-fire morning on the beach where all is born
Where the emperor of meaning is burning up his fort
And sits to warm his toes around a fire made up of useless thought
And when the children tempt him with the riddles of their trance
He flings the flames of solstice casting laughs into their dance
Where the crazy white man in the desert of his bones
Lies as bleached as the paradise he likes to think he owns

And I hate the white man in his evergreen excuse
Oh I hate the white man and the man who turned him loose...

And far across the reaches of the drifting yellow sands
The living carpet wilderness forever joins its hands
With heaven's hell's attainment in a surging crest of fire
Where more than all is thrown upon the everlasting pyre
And through the countless canticles of Jason's charcoal fleece
Are sung the songs of nothing in the timeless masterpiece
And there stood in the middle - guess who? - It's the everlasting bust
Built by God's very own white man as he tries to rule the dust

And I hate the white man on his doctrinaire refuse
Oh I hate the white man and the man who turned you all loose...

And the bowels of his city have been locked into a safe
Where the spew stains on the sidewalks are defenders of his faith
While back inside his kitchen the bowler-hatted, long-haired saint
Cleans with soap and water but it's really just white paint
While his gorgon-headed scandal sheet presents its daily bite
To give the righteous news-believers drugs to keep them white
While outside in the whitewash where the guns are always, always right
The shooting star has summoned deaths dark angel from his night


And I hate the white man and his evergreen excuse
Oh I hate the white man and the man who turned you all loose
And the man who turned me loose...


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 11:01 AM

""What remarks should I make about The Satanic Verses? Should I stay silent when Salmon Rushdie has to go into hiding because the religious head of Iran has put a contract on his head?""

A crusty old cynic like me isn't too impressed with that so-called threat of death to Salman Rushdie for the following reason.

The Media hyped threat to his life and his apparent disappearance into a "place of safety" converted an inaccurate rant about Islam which might, at best, have sold a couple of dozen copies into an all time best seller.

The world and his wife knew where he was "hiding", and neither his publishers nor the World's journalists had any trouble finding him to deliver the scads of lovely lolly he made.

I only wish I had been so endangered, and so rich!

Don T


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Acorn4
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 01:52 PM

Roy Harper - I Hate the White Man


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 02:02 PM

Don, the so-called death threat was to my mind very real. Most muslims, of course, would not be able to carry it out, but it just takes one - just one - and one is all that it needs. And what is all the "scads of lovely lolly" refer to? Is it the money he made from The Satanic Verses? Well, he is the author. Is it not rightly his? Do you think he wrote the book just to make money and that the death threat was some sort of publicity stunt? I have to say no on both counts. Rushdie is a serious artist and the death sentence on him was a real threat. What if the Monty Python team had been threatend by Christian fundelmentalists after making The Life of Brian? Would you have felt the same way? There was nothing hyped about Rushdie's death threat. Look how it was cheered by mobs of Muslims all over the world. It was a scary and sobering moment. The silence, and with silence comes tacit approval, from liberals and the Left staggered me. I thought I was a fellow traveller and discovered I wasn't.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,PenguinEgg aka 2CheersforTahir
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 02:05 PM

I have left my name off it again. I apologise.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 02:18 PM

The silence, and with silence comes tacit approval, from liberals and the Left staggered me


I don't think there was silence. And there wasn't silence when Theo van Gogh was murdered in Amsterdam. You mistake the refusal to apportion collective blame for silence.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 03:06 PM

""And many a holy person (of whatever persuasion) has lived quietly in solitude and become close to their God. As you say, 'a beautiful thing'. I shall have to think some more about your viewpoint, thank you for posting it!""

You and Dan have it exactly right Eliza.

Those of us who believe in a divine being can express our faith without ever entering a Church, Temple, Mosque, or Synagogue.

What fundamentalists don't seem capable of understanding is that we all pray to the same being, no matter what we call him.

Only our Prophets differ, and the religious organisations which have built up around the teachings of those prophets are all about controlling the faithful, and with fear of dire punishment and the promise of possible eternal bliss, keeping them in line.

That is the difference between religion and faith.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 03:20 PM

""And what is all the "scads of lovely lolly" refer to? Is it the money he made from The Satanic Verses? Well, he is the author. Is it not rightly his?""

Of course it is his by right, but are you seriously telling me that you believe he would have made twopence halfpenny if not for the very well publicised "death threat".

Scenes of Muslims dancing in the streets are two a penny, and isn't it strange that, although his whereabouts were supposed to be secret, he kept popping up here and there and nobody tried to collect on all those Houris.

British Muslim leaders at the time said that the Fatwah was a product of the fundamentalist theocracy of Iran, and that no attempt would be made to carry it out in the UK.

If you believe that it wasn't a stunt I have this nice Bridge for sale, very cheap. It goes up and down to let ships...........

Don T.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 03:30 PM

You and Dan have it exactly right Eliza.

No Don. That they share your view does not make them right or wrong.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: autoharpbob
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 03:49 PM

I just feel rather sorry that someone who wrote such beautiful songs as "East of the Sun" and "Francesca" now comes out with stuff like this, which, at best is open to misinterpretation, and at worst is harmful bigotry.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,PenguinEgg aka 2CheersforTahir
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 06:16 PM

Don T, Of course the Muslim Council did not back the murder of Rushdie, but a cell of fanatical muslims, not answerable to the Council, would only have been too willing to carry it out. Look at the London bombings. The bombers didnt get permission for that from anyone, did they?

Yes, Rushdie kept popping up, but no-one knew where he was popping up from. He had to keep moving location for his own safety. And I am shocked that you think it is just a publicity stunt.

You can keep your bridge. I was the one who sold it to you in the first place.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 09:52 AM

Don,
"Of course it is his by right, but are you seriously telling me that you believe he would have made twopence halfpenny if not for the very well publicised "death threat"."

He was appointed a Knight Bachelor by Queen Elizabeth II for "services to literature" in June 2007.[4] He holds the rank Commandeur in the Ordre des Arts et des Lettres of France. He began a five-year term as Distinguished Writer in Residence at Emory University in 2007.[5] In May 2008 he was elected to the American Academy of Arts and Letters. In 2008, The Times ranked Rushdie thirteenth on their list of "The 50 greatest British writers since 1945".
Midnight's Children, catapulted him to literary notability. It significantly shaped the course that Indian writing in English followed over the next decade, and is regarded by many as one of the great books of the last 100 years. This work won the 1981 Booker Prize and, in 1993 and 2008, was awarded the Best of the Bookers as the best novel to have received the prize during its first 25 and 40 years.

I suggest, Don, that he was not that desperate for publicity and stunts.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 10:02 AM

The symbolic empty shrine bears the words: "Mustafa Mahmoud Mazeh, born Conakry, Guinea. Martyred in London, August 3, 1989. The first martyr to die on a mission to kill Salman Rushdie."

Although the name Mazeh, the alias of an unknown 21-year-old Lebanese, will be familiar to students of Islamic terrorism, the inscription appears to confirm an assassination attempt that has never been admitted by the British security services.
In February 1989, Ayatollah Khomeini, Iran's leader, placed a fatwa on Rushdie and offered $2.5 million to a "zealous Muslim" who would kill him Rushdie went into hiding and was protected by British security forces until 1998 Rushdie's Japanese translator was stabbed to death in 1991, and his Italian translator and Norwegian publisher were also attacked.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article531110.ece

Some publicity stunt Don!


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 01:38 PM

I have had a fairly thorough look through Harper's website and I have found no mention of Folk Against Fascism or any statement dissociating himself from the neo-Nazi use of his song.

Most of his political statements are electionering on behalf of the Liberal Party. Well, we now know all too well what they stand for on a national level, and they've had a pretty appalling record of collaboration with local racists for decades.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Acorn4
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 03:02 PM

I remember reading an interview with Roy Harper in the "Melody Maker" in the seventies when he said that on some things he was to the left of Trotsky and on others very Right leaning.

The point about his lyrics, was, unlike most of the stuff produced at that time, they made you think.

!And I'm just a social experiment tailored to size,
I've been through the national machine and the welfare surprise
I'm the rich man, the poor man, the peace man the war man, the beast,
The festive consumer who ends up consumed in the feast."

McGoohan's Blues from "Folkjokeopus", 1969

Seven years before punk!


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Acorn4
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 05:03 PM

...I've just been looking at Roy Harper's blog and this is how he explains the song:-

"I wrote 'the black cloud of islam' when it became obvious to me that islam had evolved into the same instrument of modern mass murder which christianity has been for so long. And in the name of virtually the same tin pot god. I would like to be far more profane at this point than I am being here and now but I feel the need to preserve as much dignity as I can in the present circumstance."


"My real beef with islam is that once the religious fanatics had a real hold on the lives of the people, sometime after the eleventh century, all learning ground to a halt, and the only teachings available were almost all religious. So after some really solid scholarship, there followed the best part of a millennium of total darkness. A form of ignorance akin to the dogmatic foundations of the christian and hebrew faiths. Hence my metaphor 'The Black Cloud Of Islam'. No one should be surprised. I thought that my wording was apt, and after all, my criticism of christianity goes much further than just the one song."

The full entry is at:-http://www.royharper.co.uk/blog/?p=49#more-49


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: olddude
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 05:17 PM

Jon is right, I am neither right or wrong. I can only state what works for me. Everyone has their own path to follow in life. Lots of beautiful churches also, I tend to visit from time to time, but for me it is always personal and only personal. For me it works fine. I like my relationship with God as I see him.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 06:03 PM

I don't see anything in that comment of Harper's that in any way objects to the Nazis using his song as an anthem or trying to take it back from them.

Many other people on the UK folk scene have taken a stand against their work being used as weapon by the fascists.

Harper hasn't.


his lyrics, was, unlike most of the stuff produced at that time, they made you think

I've heard people say that about "Mein Kampf", too.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 06:12 PM

And for the record, olddude, it is personal to me but to me, it being personal and seeking company are not mutually exclusive.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Acorn4
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 07:42 PM

"I don't see anything in that comment of Harper's that in any way objects to the Nazis using his song as an anthem or trying to take it back from them."

Jack, Roy Harper hasn't been on the folk scene for donkeys' years.

You've really got to understand this song in the context of his whole output -have we actually established that he's aware the song has been hi-jacked by the BNP?


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Brian May
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 03:58 AM

Guest 999

The 'racist bigot' bit was on another thread about Muslim Prejudice.

I think Roy Harper's aim is to provoke comment, Islam is not treated specially - and indeed, it highlights how tenets of respect, gentleness and love are manipulated for zealots' own agendas.

Religion has very little to do with God (whatever the flavour).

There was very little point in me repeating my beliefs, so I didn't.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 07:05 AM

Perhaps we need to start getting more pedantic over terminology, Brian. Religion, faith or spirituality are commonly used interchangeably and it can be difficult to know how to respond or to phrase things.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 08:29 AM

Re the Koran and being rewritten etc , well, The Koran, Bible and I'm sure all such religious operating manuals, have been extensively re written uncountable times over the centuries, by numerous people asnd groups. Who'se motives have been to make it say what they want others to believe. Human beings, being 95% sheep minded will believe any old rubbish wrapped up in some 'religeous' cover. In fact the Koran even as recently as the 60's when I looked into, it was very much a book of love, peace, and philosophy. Now, it is a hate filled comic at best, and a homicide instruction book at worst.

But, with all these books, which at various periods in history have been interpreted by those who like to control others, to wage war on their fellow man only for the reason of them 'not being like us' What baffles me constantly is why, IF these boooks urge you to murder, and murder in the most horrific way, ,not just soldiers, but mainly innocent women, men and children, IF that is what you interpret these books to be saying, why do you not check yourself into a good Psychiatrist pronto, because sick as the writers may be, surely your mind it even sicker for believing it! Why not simply do as I do and believe in YOURSELF, it's free and harms no one


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Vin2
Date: 21 Feb 11 - 08:53 AM

Now if all those who wish to stone, maim, blow up, disfigure etc etc vented their anger on Mudcat instead, the world be a much safer place eh folks ? Or am i being naive ?

'The only one who knows this ounce of words is just a token is he who has a tongue to tell, but must remain unspoken'...Moondog.

I wonder what he apes are doing on this planet......na, best not go there!


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Mick Woods
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 08:34 AM

From Roy's Page

2009 Note. I note with sadness that since the Twin Towers crime in 2001, 'The Black Cloud Of Islam', which of course was written in 1989, has often been used by xenophobes and others in the kind of racial context I warned against originally. I did think about it at the time, and I did say in the original text of these notes (in the original sleeve notes) 'I have asked myself many times whether this song can in any way be construed as racist, as that would be the last thing I should ever want it to be. It isn't.' In 2010, one of our tasks here at this small record company, every day, is to take down the ever-sprouting Youtube and other IT concoctions which use this song's lyric in an inflammatory and racist manner. It will be a permanent job for the foreseeable future to make sure that this song is not used in a racist manner. I also said, in 1989, (in the original sleeve notes), that it was my own belief that if the 'hard-line Islamic states continued to give credence to the same attitudes of fundamentalism, then some kind of a religious war would ensue'. This prediction was correct; which brings me no joy at all. It rather brings me anger, because obviously, if people like me knew at the time, then what the hell were my political contemporaries doing about the problem? In a word, NOTHING.

No attempts were made to reach out, to take context into consideration, and to negotiate at a respectful level with people who were about to become absolutely intractable. In those days, just 20 years ago, the way that religion was allowing itself to be used and abused was becoming dangerous. In the twenty first century, to the obvious delight of its perpetrators, who are seemingly racist themselves, fundamental Islam has become a guerrilla movement. Thousands of 'martyrs' have now been allowed to spawn a movement that's going to be difficult to contain. For lots of convenient little reasons, 'the great and the good' will never agree with this. As I've said before, religion has gone mad, and has been allowed to take most of the gullible, superstitious world population with it. Currently, there is perhaps hope of a little more rapprochement than there has been with Barack Obama as US President, though this is very unlikely to address the underlying feasibility of religion itself.

Though many may turn a blind eye to terrorism because it offers them some kind of platform where once there was none, the great majority of the Muslim people will probably eventually opt for a less tense world. However, I believe that they will only do that from a position of strength and trust that at this moment they neither have nor feel. This will only be achieved with the spread of education, rights and equality. World peace will only ever be achieved with the consensus of the entire population of the world. Leaders can only point and offer advise; in the end it will be purely down to the grass roots to take the necessary steps to own themselves and their own minds. It is only they who can. In my own view, organized religion in its present form has to be almost completely abandoned. Admittedly, it's had its place as a focus for community, but at the same time, it's divisive, oppressive, obstructive, largely dishonest, contentious, manipulative, contemptuous, fictional, locally depraved, a virtual opiate, fallacious, hugely political, often tyrannical and is all too easily abused. Religion used to be the tool of choice for the maintenance of old authority, it's now in danger of being allowed to undermine new authority. The polling booths remain open. Misinform the young at your own future world peril.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: GUEST,ChrisP
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 03:03 PM

Well, that would seem to cover it.


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Subject: RE: The Black Cloud of Islam by Roy Harper
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 03:31 PM

As I said at the start of this discussion, I think this is better suited to BS.
I think the whole discussion (with very few exceptions) is muck-raking of the worst kind.

The thread was moved to BS for a while, and, if it had originaly been posted there would have been deleted as going against the forum rules, as it was started by a 'Guest'.
Do we really need this sort of discussion here?

    You know, does it really make a difference, whether it's in the Music or BS section, or whether it exists or doesn't exist? Is it really important?
    I realize there is a significant cultural difference here. If Europeans find speech distasteful, they firmly believe that something must be done about it, that it must be suppressed or at least significantly contained.
    If Americans find speech distasteful, they firmly believe it must be allowed - but actively ignored.
    The thread was moved to the non-music section by a European moderator whose judgement I admire and respect. Nonetheless, I countermanded his action because there's nothing in our policy or precedents that allows moving threads to non-music simply because they are distasteful. I don't know that we will ever find a middle ground between these two points of view. Such is life.
    All that being said, I must say that I also find the thread distasteful.
    -Joe Offer-


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