BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.

Subject: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 12:47 PM

Looking at news from Wisconson, I feel th urge to dust off some of the old union songs from the 30s and 40s.

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: ollaimh
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 12:55 PM

so what is happening to news in wisconson?

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: DebC
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 01:31 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TmSNPpzkWc

Deb

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: DebC
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 01:32 PM

OOps...here is a blicky:

GREAT VIDEO

Deb

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: TIA
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 01:45 PM

Fantastic!
I would love to be there.

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 02:12 PM

Based on personal history I have never been a big fan of unions since childhood...and I'm especially unsympathetic to public employee unions...in particular teacher unions which leadership has come to think of the union as the employer and not the employee.

I blame the the lack of school achievement in large part (not wholly) on teacher unions. Far down on the list is the manner of funding public schools.

Also, I believe that allowing teachers as members of the school board for which they work to be a conflict of interest.

On Wisconsin!

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 02:42 PM

yikes....

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 02:50 PM

I blame the the lack of school achievement in large part (not wholly) on teacher unions. Far down on the list is the manner of funding public schools.

Well, John, then you haven't been paying attention to what has been done to US education since Ronnie Reagan, you're simply ignorant & uninformed, or you're a moron.

Or, I suppose, simply an ideaologue.

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 03:05 PM

Unions would be alright for workers dealing with large private corporations..but really, for the Federal Government??? You mean the Federal Govt. is such an unfair employer, that it has to have a union?..When their Fed Union workers who are making almost twice as much, as their private sector counterparts??....Whose taxes are paying for their 'services'....and whose union dues are being paid by those taxes...which $62 million was donated to Obama's campaign..instead of going to those 'dear little children' that the bullshitters are saying they are so concerned about????...and Obama's Administration is paying them off with bullshit payback favors???...Uhhh, sounds like a scam to me.

I think that's why not too many comments, about the union bull-crap, in this particular area.
Not only that, when FDR instituted all those public works projects(which is the origin of some of the Fed employees work force, he specifically DID NOT want them unionized...for what its worth.
Being for unions, is OK, but not in this case, during a long recession, when there is no money, and the money and benefits could be better spent, than stuffing the faces of unions bosses(read: corrupt 'special interests' mobsters)..NOR should FEDERAL Unions really need any collective bargaining, being as they work for the govt!
This is not like workers and private corporations...this is too obvious a scam for power!!!!!...oh, and money, too!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 05:14 PM

gfs, public employees pay taxes, too. Teachers are not federal workers. I could go on; I'm sure others will.

Are government workers too well paid?
...
Many point to an analysis by USA Today last year that asserted, based on data from the Bureau of Economic Analysis, that federal civil servants — not state or local ones — had in 2009 "average pay and benefits" that were nearly double those of private workers.

An analysis by PolitiFact.com, however, found that public vs. private claims can be problematic given both the difficulty in making apples-to-apples comparisons and the higher percentage of white-collar jobs in the public sector.

Its research found a decidedly mixed bag: some salaries in the public sector higher, some lower.
...

Others studies cited in the article find that generally public employees are trading lower pay for better job security.

Of course, with some 600,000 public employees among the unemployed, and lots of program cuts clearly ahead, that job security is not guaranteed.

~ Becky in Tucson
a non-union (not by choice) state employee

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 07:43 PM

"Well, John, then you haven't been paying attention..."

That's pretty damned presumptuous of you, Greg F. You have no idea what I pay attention to.

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 08:00 PM

Well, this goes beyond just union busting... This is more about busting the Democrats... Yeah, the Repubs have had their corrupt Supreme Court weigh j on a decision that really didn't have much to do with corporations being able to secretly give as much money and run attack ads without having to identify themselves... The corrupt Republican FEC just weighed in on letting Boss Hog actually run his own candidates... Now its the last battle for the Repubs as they try to drive a stake in the heart of unions because unions tend to get out the vote for Dems...

This string of corrupt acts if witnessed in some 3rd World country we4'd all be making jokes about it but...

...all this is about the republican Party trying to use the courts and state legislative branches to bust Democrats rather than deal with the real problems in their states...

This absolutely has nothing to do with budgets,, pay, benefits... This is 1000% about the Repub's trying to rig the deck to benefit them in future elections... It is corrupt... It is immoral... It is shameful... It is anti-democratic and it is fucked up!!!

That is the real deal...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 08:34 PM

I'm old enough to remember the days before teacher's unions had any power at all. Funny thing, those were also the days when teachers were grossly underpaid.

Unions don't singlehandedly raise salaries and benefits; they just make it possible for members to bargain for it. And if the employer makes a bad bargain (which happens all too often, removing the power of collective bargaining is not the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 08:40 PM

Have you heard the phone call that was recorded between Gov. Walker and who he thought was billionaire David Koch?

See me after you do.

which side are you on tell me which side are you on

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 08:45 PM

Are you saying, Dick, that there is an inverse correlation between teacher pay and student achievement? Perhaps it's just a coincidence? Perhaps there are several factors, of which teacher pay is high on the list?

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: EBarnacle
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 09:21 PM

John, you are absolutely correct.

Corporate bodies such as states and school boards should be in total control of all of their employees and all employment should be at will rather than contractual. No organization should be allowed to advocate for the workers so that, at the least, their salaries should keep up with inflation and perhaps a percent or two more for longevity. No organization should be in a position to make sure that employees should receive due process instead of being summarily fired because they might irritate some politico. No organization should be in a position to advocate for rational and healthy working conditions.

If civil employees salaries are larger than private employees without the same protections, that should tell you something about the employers they work for. In "the good old days" when unions were stronger, the American middle class developed and provided a solid economic structure for this nation. Part of the reason for off shoring jobs was to break the strength of unions and fatten profits.

As one who has very carefully checked out manufacturing in China and Korea, I know that they are not a long term threat to us as long as there is not expectation of quality, only of price. With any luck, production jobs will return, at least to this hemisphere and perhaps even to this country while there are still people who give a damn about what they put their hands to.

By the way, I was at the demonstration in front of Fox News on Tuesday and will be on the steps of the State House in Trenton on Friday at noon. What are you doing about this assault on the American worker?

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 09:34 PM

Poor districts, indeed ghettos of dark skinned people are carved out by banks and committes now as they were gnereations ago. That is unless a gentrification or waterside project is underway.

Poor districts seem to show lower teacher performance despite the fact there may be some very good teachers dealing with the extra burdons that poverty imposes.

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 09:52 PM

So lets blame th teachers for the Republicans taking $$$$ out of public schools and funneling it into vouchers and charter schools... Yeah, we do spend a lot pe3r pupil but what the righties don't want you to know is just how much is siphoned off to be sure that kids don't have to attend integrated schools... That is the dirty little secret here...

Is it the only problem with our educational system??? No, it isn't but trying to put the blame on teachers for the fiscal irresponsibility of Republican law makers is like blaming rape victims for being raped...

It's pure Republican bullshit and they ought to hang their head in shame for it!!!

Serious business...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 10:08 PM

"With any luck, production jobs will return, at least to this hemisphere and perhaps even to this country..."

A event to be devoutly wished for. Good middle class jobs are sorely lacking here. By that, I mean the kind of job that allowed my family to exist reasonably well on one paycheck (and mom working occasionally for some extras). I made almost the same money just out of college in the early sixties as my dad, who had been working for nearly 35 years, did...slightly over 5K/yr. We were a family of five in a modest two bedroom and den house, two cars (never new), and never missed a meal, and never had to go to school in tattered clothes. We never had the best of anything, but what we had was sufficient to its purpose.

I think it will be a long time before that kind of job will come around again in the US. But that's a thread for another time.

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 10:17 PM

"Unions would be alright for workers dealing with large private corporations..but really, for the Federal Government??? You mean the Federal Govt. is such an unfair employer, that it has to have a union?"

Good point GfS.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: DebC
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 10:32 PM

http://www.themonkeycage.org/2011/02/the_relationship_between_union.html

Debra

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: DebC
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 10:34 PM

Damn. Here it is again, fixed.

Debra

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: mousethief
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 10:34 PM

When their Fed Union workers who are making almost twice as much, as their private sector counterparts?

Any evidence for this? Something we can link to? By a reasonably non-Fox source?

As for unionized teachers and bad education: the evidence is decidedly not there. Either way. Check it out.

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 10:57 PM

Right, mouse... The right always wants to blame the man lowest on their totem pole... Problem is that they always ***blame*** people who are just out there trying to do their best and earning squat for their efforts...

Shame on them...

Actually, this entire situation has gotten a lot of people thinking about unions... The 30 year old mythology is slowly melting... In the end this may be the best thing that has happened for organized labor in decades...

That's my take...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: EBarnacle
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 11:12 PM

"Unions would be alright for workers dealing with large private corporations..but really, for the Federal Government??? You mean the Federal Govt. is such an unfair employer, that it has to have a union?"

Obviously, you have forgotten Ronnie Raygun and the air traffic controllers. A classic case of union busting allowing the government to work people into the ground and then blame them when they make mistakes. But then again, the federal government would never abuse their workers.

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 12:30 AM

I have a son-in-law, who was elected to be a union rep, as he works in the US Postal Service. I know when we talked, before, he had issues with the union, because of the way it was blowing off the actual cares of the rank and file, that he works with. He then rose, to a higher position, and now represents them in a higher capacity. One of the issues he ran on, was that the unions was so corrupt, that they neglected their original purpose. When he ran, his slogan was, "We've tried experience, and we saw where that went, now let's try integrity"

I think, in all fairness, I'd like to get his take on it..maybe bring out some issues NOT being covered by the press, or the party. I'll give him my take, and see where it goes. ..and he won't be hesitant on pointing out, where, 'I got it' or what I'm missing.

At this point, the way I see it, is the private sector, namely the workers, in the private sector, are getting the short end of the stick, along with taxpayers who have to foot the bill, while the union bosses, are NOT allocating their funds, and spending it in other areas, than it was intended for...and so far, very little for the benefit of the rank and file, and in the case of teachers, not so much for the kids or quality of teach. Now that happens to be a FACT, as also chronicled in the Oscar nominated documentary, "Waiting for Superman"

I'm going to check out a few things, and probably get back to you all!...when I get a more in depth exchange with him. I don't want the standard party line crap either..let's go check out the reality..is it just a power/control grab, or is there something to it. Fair enough?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 07:46 AM

Well, yeah, union haters always have anecdotal stories to tell about this person or that person...

Reality is that when we had strong union membership the middle class grew and wages, while not going up at the rate of management, at least went up... Since Ronnie "Goon" Reagan busted the air traffic controllers there has been a steady decline in the middle class and and stagnation of wages (indexed to inflation)...

I mean, what we have seen is an obscene fleecing of the working class and now Boss Hog want to drive that final stake thru the heart of unions... If he gets away with it, look for even more income inequality across the country effecting every sector... Ya' see, it's union that do set the bar (or try to) and that effects what other employers have to do to at the very least, keep workers...

BTW, the numbers that are being thrown out there by Repubs about teachers salaries in Wisconsin are bogus and pure mythology... Instead of the %89,000 figure that the right wing keeps pounding awy with the average high school teacher makes $43,000!!! I mean, if you rae going to win this one one should use facts rather than made-up-crap as part of one's argument...

Gotta go...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 08:45 AM

Greg F. You have no idea what I pay attention to.

Seeing what you post, John, I can get a pretty accurate picture by simple deductive reasoning.

As can - and apparently do -some others here.

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 08:49 AM

Good point GfS.   biLL

No, Bill, its a pretty stupid point - John is saying that Federal workers should have less rights than other workers.

That's the "American Way" for ya- seperate and unequal.

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 09:08 AM

Yes. Donuel got it right above.
Listen to Scott Walker talking to (he thinks) David Koch, then come back here and tell us which side you are on.

http://www.readersupportednews.org/news-section2/318-66/5061-audio-scott-walker-

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 09:15 AM

Now that happens to be a FACT, as also chronicled in... "Waiting for Superman"

Another FACT is that funding for education has been cut for years, starting with The Great Prestidigitator, Ronnie Reagan, and more cuts are currently proposed.

Of course, that has nothing to do with poor student performance.

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 09:39 AM

"Good point GfS.   biLL"

It is a good point ..... theoretically .... "government of the people, for the people." ... then we would not need unions to protect the workers ... correct

but then the U.S. government is disfunctional,and if so I guess we do need unions to protect the government workers ... but on the other side, is it the people that are dysfunctional ... if so, well ... then God have mercy.

biLL ... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 05:20 PM

"if you are going to win this one one should use facts rather than made-up-crap as part of one's argument"

Never need reality in political argument for centuries, mate...

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: Liane
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 06:02 PM

As a retired public librarian receiving a modest pension from the state of New York, I'm at an utter loss to understand the sudden demonization of public employees' unions. I'm endlessly grateful to my union local, which was founded in 1968 in the progressive spirit of that time, for protecting my colleagues and me from being fired at the whim of an arguably disturbed supervisor, for helping us to file grievances that prevented upper management from suddenly changing our job descriptions, and for helping us gain promotions in a system that was often overtly hostile to the thought of us advancing. (I remember managers telling us that if we stayed in our jobs for more than two years, it was because we had no ambition--I guess the fact that we loved our work and our workplace never entered their heads.) Most of all, I'm thankful for my continuing health benefits as a retiree, and for my pension, small as it is.

Instead of resenting us for having these benefits, why don't more private-sector workers organize and bargain collectively for their own?

Liane
Retiree, Local 1930
District Council 37
American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees
AFL-CIO

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: GUEST,Big Norman Voice
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 06:09 PM

Yes well, you fight for higher wages, and you make yourself vulnerable to being undercut. Then before you know it, China is holding all your debts.

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 06:11 PM

"why don't more private-sector workers organize and bargain collectively for their own?"

well ... spoken like a true public sector worker

People in the private sector have been trying and trying .... it is not as easy as it seems.

It's a cruel world when people get in a position to manipulate via fear to control those that are under them.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: Liane
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 06:18 PM

> People in the private sector have been trying and trying .... it is not as easy as it seems.

Understood! I apologize for sounding naive about what workers trying to organize today are facing. I simply deplore being characterized as some sort of decadent spendthrift for receiving a pension. It's not easy being decadent in New York on less than $20,000/yr.

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 07:23 PM

no need to apologize Liane .... I was rather somewhat flippant in my retort. I apologize.

I dunno, I confess I am somewhat naive in my years ... I just don't understand how fellow human beings can take advantage of others when in a position of power .. albeit in government or the private sector ... because of that unions are justifiable, I cannot argue that.

In the not to distant future this whole system we have created will surely crack ... we will have lost much that we have grown accustom to in the material sense. It will be a dramtaic life style change. Not in our life time, maybe in the next generation or two humans will then (I hope) realize what they have gained.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 07:52 PM

Here's the truth... we cannot do without unions. Before there were working unions, management did insufferable things.

However...we ALL know that once unions got well established, 'some' unions overused their new power....and some union reps were little more than bullies and rip-off artists. Have we all forgotten Jimmy Hoffa & similar ones so soon?

The old saw about "power corrupts" seems to resonate....

That being said... I repeat, We cannot do without unions. We need the right to negotiate and have folks designated to keep watch....and THOSE folks need to be regulated and watched so that they work FOR the workers...fairly.

It ain't easy....

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 09:09 PM

Okay, here's the real deal on unions for government workers...

Will any rightie here answer this question??? Who the hell is going to take any government job if they know that the next election they will be fired???

No one...

Good luck at finding anyone to do the government's work if every 2 years they may get fired because of a stupid election....

(But, boberdz, them government workers don't do squat...)

Yeah, I'd love to see where this country would be if every government worker told the Rush Limbaughs and Glen Becks to "Take this and shove it..."

6 months and this country would go down like the Titanic... Except worse...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: Janie
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 09:42 PM

Thank you, Bill D.!

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: EBarnacle
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 11:02 PM

Now, of course, Bobert, if public workers were fired every two years or so at the behest of the latest official who wanted to cut the budget, their entry level salaries would have to start higher to attract the workers.

As it is, public workers tend to start lower for equivalent work but, because they do not revert to entry level salaries every year or two, their salaries eventually rise to true living wages and, if they are really lucky, perhaps even a little higher. Nothing like a banker or Wall Streeter, of course, but almost respectable.

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 07:44 PM

Where is RFK when you need him???
(For those who forgot, or didn't know, he was Attorney General under JFK, who was prosecuting union corruption!..My-y-y--y the unions have come a long way, since then!!)

Oh yeah, killed by Palestinian, Sirhan Sirhan.

GfS

P.S. Maybe this bullshit has been going on a lot longer, that you were aware of.......

Du-u-u-hhh!

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: EBarnacle
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 11:14 AM

GfS--relevance?

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 12:05 PM

Unions were created--read NEEDED--ever since companies found out they could screw their employees.

I will grant that some unions themselves got tangled up with `the Mob`, kinda like the way business got into bed with government. And has managed to stay there for freakin` ever. To those of you who have never needed the help of a union--I`m afraid you may not know whereof you speak. If I have to choose the mob that`s fucking me, I`d rather it not be government. There`s too much of that already, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: EBarnacle
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 02:25 PM

So much for process. The Wisconsin Republicans are not even willing to do that much. For those who are complaining that the Democrats are being undemocratic in their refusal to be steamrolled, this appeared on AOL's news page:

Wisconsin Assembly Passes Bill Taking Away Union RightsFeb 25, 2011 – 8:05 AM

AP MADISON, Wis. - Republicans in the Wisconsin Assembly took the first significant action on their plan to strip collective bargaining rights from most public workers, abruptly passing the measure early Friday morning before sleep-deprived Democrats realized what was happening.

The vote ended three straight days of punishing debate in the Assembly. But the political standoff over the bill - and the monumental protests at the state Capitol against it - appear far from over.

Republicans in the Wisconsin Assembly early Friday passed Gov. Scott Walker's bill that strips most public workers of their collective bargaining rights.The Assembly's vote sent the bill on to the Senate, but minority Democrats in that house have fled to Illinois to prevent a vote. No one knows when they will return from hiding. Republicans who control the chamber sent state troopers out looking for them at their homes on Thursday, but they turned up nothing.

"I applaud the Democrats in the Assembly for earnestly debating this bill and urge their counterparts in the state Senate to return to work and do the same," Assembly Speaker Jeff Fitzgerald, R-Horicon, said in a statement issued moments after the vote.

The plan from Republican Gov. Scott Walker contains a number of provisions he says are designed to fill the state's $137 million deficit and lay the groundwork for fixing a projected $3.6 billion shortfall in the upcoming 2011-13 budget.

The flashpoint is language that would require public workers to contribute more to their pensions and health insurance and strip them of their right to collectively bargain benefits and work conditions.

Democrats and unions see the measure as an attack on workers' rights and an attempt to cripple union support for Democrats. Union leaders say they would make pension and health care concessions if they can keep their bargaining rights, but Walker has refused to compromise.

Tens of thousands of people have jammed the Capitol since last week to protest, pounding on drums and chanting so loudly that police providing security have resorted to ear plugs. Hundreds have taken to sleeping in the building overnight, dragging in air mattresses and blankets.

With the Senate immobilized, Assembly Republicans decided to act and convened the chamber Tuesday morning.

Democrats launched a filibuster, throwing out dozens of amendments and delivering rambling speeches. Each time Republicans tried to speed up the proceedings, Democrats rose from their seats and wailed that the GOP was stifling them.

Debate had gone on for 60 hours and 15 Democrats were still waiting to speak when the vote started around 1 a.m. Friday. Speaker Pro Tem Bill Kramer, R-Waukesha, opened the roll and closed it within seconds.

Democrats looked around, bewildered. Only 13 of the 38 Democratic members managed to vote in time.

Republicans immediately marched out of the chamber in single file. The Democrats rushed at them, pumping their fists and shouting "Shame!" and "Cowards!"

The Republicans walked past them without responding.

Democrats left the chamber stunned. The protesters greeted them with a thundering chant of "Thank you!" Some Democrats teared up. Others hugged.

"What a terrible, terrible day for Wisconsin," said Rep. Jon Richards, D-Milwaukee. "I am incensed. I am shocked."

GOP leaders in the Assembly refused to speak with reporters, but earlier Friday morning Majority Leader Scott Suder, R-Abbotsford, warned Democrats that they had been given 59 hours to be heard and Republicans were ready to vote.

The nonpartisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau said earlier this week that the debt refinancing could be pushed back as late as Tuesday to achieve the savings Walker wants. Based on a similar refinancing in 2004, about two weeks are needed after the bill becomes law to complete the deal. That means if the bill is adopted by the middle of next week, the state can still meet a March 16 deadline, the Fiscal Bureau said.

Democratic Sen. Jon Erpenbach said he and his colleagues wouldn't return until Walker compromised.

Frustrated by the delay, Senate Republican Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald, Jeff Fitzgerald's brother, ordered state troopers to find the missing Democrats, but they came up empty. Wisconsin law doesn't allow police to arrest the lawmakers, but Fitzgerald said he hoped the show of authority would have pressured them to return.

Erpenbach, who was in the Chicago area, said all 14 senators remained outside of Wisconsin.

"It's not so much the Democrats holding things up," Erpenbach said. "It's really a matter of Gov. Walker holding things up."

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 05:07 PM

Andrew Shomers pleaded guilty to a series of crimes involving violence and sabotage. His offenses included vandalizing the offices of the local housing authority (because it didn't use Local 91 labor to install a small section of sidewalk outside its offices), participating in a group assault on workers from another union, stalking and attacking non-union workers on an asbestos-removal project (by throwing a homemade firebomb through a window), and destroying work that had been done by workers from another union and ruining their tools. Shomers was just one of fifteen former Local 91 leaders indicted by authorities. Following his plea bargain, seven other former leaders pleaded guilty. Shomers pleaded guilty to felony racketeering, making him the highest-placed member of the union to reject the code of silence that kept the late Michael "Butch" Quarcini in control of Local 91 for 35 years.Shomers said the frequent orders from former Local 91 President Mark Congi to wreak havoc on any worker or company that defied the demands of the union's hierarchy. "The only time he called me was when he wanted something done." Shomers, 42, clasped his hands behind him, pursed his lips and looked down as Assistant U.S. Attorney William J. Hochul spent the better part of two hours reading his plea agreement in federal court in Buffalo. The 24-page document outlined Shomers' admissions, including a number of incidents of violence or sabotage not previously mentioned in court papers.

Shawn Clark used his union American Express card to entertain clients at strip clubs. Now the party is officially over. Clark, formerly business agent for United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners Local 455 in Somerville, New Jersey, was sentenced on December 9 in Trenton federal court to 28 months in prison and three years of supervised release for embezzling union funds during a seven-year period. He also will have to make restitution in an amount between $72,000 and $102,000, the exact sum to be determined in court later on. He was convicted by a trial jury back in May.

On December 2, Cory Carroll, former secretary-treasurer of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, Regional and Shortline General Committee of Adjustment, was sentenced in U.S. District Court for the District of Minnesota to five years probation for theft from the Albert Lea-based union. He also was ordered to pay $35,362.41 in restitution and a $100 assessment, while refraining from gambling and the use of various controlled substances. The sentencing follows an investigation by the Labor Department's Office of Labor-Management Standards.

On February 8, Mechelle Busse, aka Mechelle Singleton, former office manager of United Association of Plumbers and Pipefitters Local 568, pleaded guilty in U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Mississippi to embezzling slightly over $110,000 in funds from the Gulfport union. She had been indicted in August for taking the money during June 2005-December 2007.

On November 22, Frank Kmiec, former secretary-treasurer for Brotherhood of Maintenance of Way Employees Local 2857, pleaded guilty in U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Illinois to making false entries in union financial records in connection with his theft of $19,461.39 in union funds. He had been charged on November 2. The local is based in Genoa City, Wisconsin (Kenosha County), just north of the Illinois border. The actions follow a probe by the U.S. Labor Department's Office of Labor-Management Standards.

On November 17, Antonio Jordan, former secretary-treasurer of Communications Workers of America Local 38187, was sentenced in U.S. District Court for the Western District of Pennsylvania to four years probation and ordered to pay $5,778.01 restitution and a $100 assessment for embezzling funds from the Erie-based union. He had been indicted in May and pleaded guilty in August to stealing $8,767.40 by using his union credit card to make unauthorized purchases.

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 05:13 PM

And there are Priests who molest...are all priests bad?
And there are Senators who use campaign funds improperly...are all Senators bad?
And there are folk musicians who cheat on ther wives...are all folk musicians bad?

In Fox News world...Yes!

(As long as they are not Republicans)

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 05:13 PM

Just came from the Capitol building in Atlanta, GA where with about five hundred strong of protestors against the atrocity of Scott Walker, Mary and I lead them in "Solidarity, Forever", "We're Going to Roll the Union On" and "We Shall Not be Moved" with an encore of "We Shall Overcome".   Everyone knew all the words and sang out beautifully.

By contrast the Tea Party across the street were distinct from us in their ugly cacophony.

I told our protester crowd that the Megaphone may have all the noise but we have all the songs.

Hold the Line!

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 05:25 PM

Sawzaw reappears! and makes my point....though I'm not sure he INTENDED it that way. ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: EBarnacle
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 05:25 PM

Yes, the TP'ers were present in Trenton also. Their power was so negligible that no one took notice of them.

I wonder how many of those SS cited above were Democrats? If any of them were, doesn't that make all Democrats bad? Same thing for Catholics [formerly politically vilified], Jews, Irish, Italians, Polish, Hungarians, Blacks, Native Americans, descendants of illegal immigrants, etc. Quite a few WASPy names ther, too. Gotta watch alla them types.

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 05:35 PM

The Tea Party folks have blown their wad...

If the elections were held today I'd bet that half of them that won would lose...

Can I prove that??? No, but one thing that Americans who were polled said coming out from voting that concerned them was the "all the political infighting" and "partisanship"...

Problem for the Tea Party is that they have taken it to a new level and now they are turning people off...

B

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 06:11 PM

GfS--relevance

Oxymoron

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: LadyJean
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 07:52 PM

I live just a few miles from Homestead PA, where, once upon a time, the men who worked in Andrew Carnegie's mills sometimes worked 24 hour shifts. Unions stopped that.

Wisconsin's state workers are, apparently, paid slightly less than those in the private sector. They were willing to accept pay cuts, but wanted to retain the right to collective bargaining, which seems reasonable to me.

Which didn't stop one Wisconsin assitant district attorney from reccomending that the workers be attacked with live ammunition.

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 12:41 AM

Scott Barnes did not want to be represented by the California Nurses Association, which sought to impose itself on the nurses at the Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in 2002. To express his opinion, he posted these words on a website: "If the CNA is voted in, membership will NOT be voluntary, and YOU WILL have to give them $80 per month whether you like it or not. If the CNA really cared about any of us, they would let their reputation speak for itself, but they have no reputation and they have to force you to join." Subsequently, Barnes began to receive anonymous threatening calls saying that he should stop "fucking with the union" and that his pet dogs might come to harm if he didn't.

Threatening calls were also made to Christine Foxon, another nurse with whom Barnes had co-founded an independent nurses' group. One caller said he knew she "had two young daughters" and she needed to "think about her family and her girls and back off." After one of these calls, Foxon dialed *69 and discovered that she had been called from an office of the CNA.

After reviewing the evidence, the National Labor Relations Board found that the union's menacing behavior had made a fair election impossible and overturned the narrow election win by the union.

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 09:30 AM

Source, Sawz? Or are you just making this up as you go along?

PS: When ya gonna start posting excerpts about the corruption and strong-arm tactics of U.S. businesses- incidents that far exceed thise perpetrated by your personal bogeymen?

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 09:58 AM

LadyJean-

The DA's just following a long-standing American tradition of shooting down unionized workers or those trying to organize- not only Homestread but Ludlow, Blair Mountain, Leadville, Carbondale and a host of other places too numerous to mention.

Perhaps the Wisc. Governor can hire a private army of Pinkerton thugs (Pinkerton is still in busines, I believe) like Frick and Carnegie did to shoot the public workers down & get this over with.

Kind of like a living history re-enactment.

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: EBarnacle
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 12:10 PM

Greg, y'mean sorta like what Quadaffi is doing?

By the way, that earlier post should have read: GfS--relevance?

Subject: RE: BS: No comments in union-busting? Odd.
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 12:44 PM

You Betcha!

I'm surprised the Repubs in Wisc. and the U.S. House & Senate haven't passed a resolution is support of Quadaffi.

Or maybe they have by now.......