BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 01:39 PM

"I heard several songs at your folkclub that wouldn't have passed the 1954 definition of a folksong."

I don't do any that would! :-)
(Well, a couple maybe).

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 12:02 PM

You're corrupt anyway. I heard several songs at your folkclub that wouldn't have passed the 1954 definition of a folksong.


I didn't know you regarded youself as pure, Les.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 04:36 AM

LOL! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 04:22 AM

Well 1.6 million would as well.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 04:17 AM

40 million could corrupt me.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 10:58 PM

Oh.

It's strange, I find it difficult to get worked up about this sort of thing. Stockbrokers, traders, hedge-fund-bosses, stock-market-wheeler-dealers, call them what you will, are all just professional gamblers with a thin veneer of decency, without the eye-shades and smoky back-rooms, but with the same attitude towards cheating - it's fine if you don't get caught. I'm never surprised at the depths to which their deceitfulness and immorality will sink.

Money corrupts. The larger the amounts, the greater the extent to which the corruptible are corrupted.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 05:42 PM

I learn much from my participation in Mudcat discussions from someof the other regular posters.

I have learnt that apparently it is ok when a discussion is ongoing that one can find matters partly relevant to the thread and post them in the thread, especially if there is some sort of link with possible naughty doings.


Former billionaire faces insider trading trial

QUOTE
One of the biggest insider trading court cases has begun in New York, with a one-time billionaire accused of fraud and facing 20 years in jail.

Raj Rajaratnam was a once a powerful hedge-fund boss who is accused of making more than $50 million through insider trading.

The 53-year-old Sri Lankan-born money manager is alleged to have obtained confidential information leaked by corporate insiders.

Rajaratnam says he is innocent and that investment advisers regularly speak to traders as part of their research.
UNQUOTE

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 11:45 AM

I think David Cameron is the very man I'd choose to come to grips with this plop in the reservoir. I'm sure he'd make a great fist of it.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 11:34 AM

Well that banker earns 40 million a year excluding his bonus. That is crazily unbelievable.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 06:03 AM

Sounds fair to me.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 05:59 AM

Ver elegantly put Al. :-)

I agree BWM. You can't do much when a contract is in place. However, somebody should have got to grips with this issue long ago.

Maybe, nobody should earn more than the Prime Minister.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 05:00 AM

And I see on TV this morning that the boss of Barclays is getting £6m. Makes the RBS guy look like a complete failure, and a pauper to boot. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 04:58 AM

The point I've been trying to make is that he has a contract, and contracts are documents enforcable in law. They should be honoured, the law demands it. BUT far more questionable is the fact that he had the contract in the first place, and that's where everyone should be directing their venom - not at the fortunate guy who is the beneficiary of this arrangement, but rather at the structure and control systems (or maybe lack of control) that permitted such a contract to exist in the first place.

Horse first, then cart.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 03:20 AM

That's right, they reckon he's got a contract, so it should be honoured. Whereas the rest of are saying - supposing he had a contract saying he could piss in the water supply - should that be honoured?

Getting an immoral amount of money from people who can't really afford it, and who have come bleating to the tax payer about being in debt, is more environmentally unfriendly than a piss (or a plop even) in the reservoir.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 02:06 AM

Backwoodsman's post of 06 March 11 @ 02:05 AM seems to say exactly what Teribus stated in his very first post to this thread 25 February @ 01:58 AM

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 05:19 AM

I wouldn't reject invisibility status in a ladies changing room, but it wouldn't make it right.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 04:47 AM

And counting this one, that's four posts when I said I would only make one!
Buggerbuggerbuggerbugger!

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 04:46 AM

'Twas ever thus and, alas, 'twill ever be, I fear.

One question though - if you or I were in a position to command such bonuses, would we refuse them? I think not.

I agree it doesn't seem fair, but he presumably has it written into his contract. If that's the case, he's entitled to take the money. Hand on heart - I would, and I bet you would too, Art.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST,Arthur_itus
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 03:55 PM

Well all, I can say, is that it's very difficult to swallow such fat twat payments, when friends around me (who you know well Backwoodsman) are struggling to make ends meet. One through serious illness and the other because of losing their job, with no forseeable prospect of getting work. Both in the music/folk world.
I phoned one of these people today about the John Conolly, Bill Whaley and Dave Fletcher concert at Faldingworth (this person has never missed an event, apart from unforseeable other arrangements). I asked if that person was coming along (they normally book 4 tickets). The person said that they had just lost their job and couldn't afford to go anywhere and was very worried about the future.
This person puts a lot into the Lincolnshire tradition.
Even though my family are struggling, I couldn't help feeling very sorry for this friend.

So basically fat twat money grabbing arseholes can go screw themselves.

The sh*t is hitting the bottom of the can and it is about to explode, whilst the fat twats soak in their wealth.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 03:00 PM

"There is one more relevant fact, though - should be continue to make those sorts of contracts and if not what sort of contracts can we make that attract the skills we need but are better for the country."

That's a whole 'nuther can o' worms, and greater brains than mine will have to apply themselves to it.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 03:12 AM

Teribus wrote "DMcG - ... Now tell me where in that article "HE" referred rto (etc)

You know perfectly well I did not claim that he did. You seem very fond of berating people based on things they have not said; an unfortunate habit that is worth getting out of. Doing so allows you to avoid dealing with what people actually do say, so you don't have to deal with comments of someone who knows better than you or I. Perhaps you would like to reflect on the final paragraph from the Governor above?

Backwoodman: I *almost* completely agree with you - that's why I say they are entitled to the payments. There is one more relevant fact, though - should be continue to make those sorts of contracts and if not what sort of contracts can we make that attract the skills we need but are better for the country.

Short of another relevant announcement from imf/chancellor/govenor/etc I will once more return to the sidelides.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 02:05 AM

My one and only contribution to yet another 'UK' thread that looks as though it's going down the toilet, the same as the 'Muslim Prejudice' thread and many others.

Whether the boss of RBS is fat, or a twat, or both, is completely irrelevant in the context of his bonus. Whether the banks are creaming it off while the taxpayer is squeezed until the pips squeak is irrelevant in the context of his bonus.

The only things that are relevant to his bonus are his contract and his performance in terms of that contract.

If he has a contract which entitles him to certain bonus-levels dependent on reaching performance-markers set out by that contract, then he has a legal and, yes, a moral entitlement to his bonus.

And, in the entire time I've been entitled to vote, I have never voted Conservative, nor will I - ever.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 01:17 AM

Bloody hilarious, I am a "fascist capitalist", a "schizophrenic" and "the Anti-Christ" all rolled into one. And this name calling is what you call debating skill. The worst I accused you of was being a "socialist".

Idiotic Statement No.1:
"The Real World of Finance and Banking does not run on "common sense and logic", but runs how Accountants deem it must"

Nothing relies more on "common sense and logic than profit and loss.

Idiotic Statement No.2:
"By your claims of "common sense and logic", if a bad deal is done by a bank loaning money, then the bank should take that loss (and not get a tax write off) because they took the gamble that the overall deal would work"

What tax any concern pays is based solely on the actual net profit made. Your contention that tax should be paid on profits that might have been made is ludicrous.

Idiotic Statement No.3:
"or do you mean that loans should be given to all who ask, without checking to see if their claims that the loan can be repaid are valid?"

That was exactly what Bill Clinton told mortgage brokers "Freddy Mac" and "Fanny Mae" to do over in the USA and when those bad loan risks failed to repay that is what caused the sub-prime crash, so no I most certainly do not subscribe to that view.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 07:39 PM

"Difficult for a socialist"

If you can so easily call me a 'socialist' merely based on my words without knowing me personally and what I have done in my life, but are merely prattling your biased stereotypes, then why can you not also reasonably be called by others based on your words a 'fascist capitalist', or even, based on my personal hard life experiences at the hands of other people, a 'schizophrenic'? Since you display that you can not understand the basics of 'debating', the "playing of Devil's Advocate" to really understand those with whom you debate, but just label others based on what the buttons that are pushed in your mind respond to, you can only respond with blind stereotypes. And of course, you believe you are never wrong, and thus don't have to ever admit being so. :-)

If you dislike socialists so ardently, then attack all the 'True Christians' who follow what He said about caring for others, and loving them as strongly as one loves one own self, and SHARING WHAT THEY OWN WITH OTHERS - socialist behaviour!!! ... So now you are 'The Anti-Christ'?, since you cannot be a 'True Christian' and display 'socialist thinking or behaviour'. Quote "If someone has done what they have said that they will do and they have a bonus deal then that deal should be honoured - that is a contract and that is what has to be honoured period - no bloody debate, no discussion"Unquote - A contract with Jesus to care for others (whether you are a banker or not) is still "a contract and that is what has to be honoured period - no bloody debate, no discussion" ... It is your displayed ardent hate of 'Socialists', and such attitudes by those who claimed to be 'True Christians', that was strongly motivational in my deciding to lose interest in all hypocritical religious dogma.


"I have no INSIDE knowledge"

But you claim to know how banking works from the inside much better than anyone else here because of your personal experience on the inside. The Real World of Finance and Banking does not run on "common sense and logic", but runs how Accountants deem it must - but you now seem to want to deny that. By your claims of "common sense and logic", if a bad deal is done by a bank loaning money, then the bank should take that loss (and not get a tax write off) because they took the gamble that the overall deal would work - or do you mean that loans should be given to all who ask, without checking to see if their claims that the loan can be repaid are valid? Oh no, you don't, you want houses seized from mortagees in financial distress as good business practice...

"unlike you I only apply common sense and logic"

YOUR OPINION of "common sense and logic" is just that, your opinion. You deny that anyone else but you can have "common sense and logic" - sadly I got that nonsense from my schizophrenic manager for years, until he finally came out and claimed that it was only common sense and logic that I must have faked the highly expensive monitored IQ test to get a score higher that I really was, as he knew, (just as you know that I am a socialist!) that I could not be that bright! That's when they led Him away ...

"and do not just transpose events to suit my arguments as you have done in this case"

The banking problems are world wide - you deny this by hiding behind delusional excessively narrow definitions to suit your arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 05:14 PM

Ah Foolestroupe so nothing to do with the UK Banking system at all then - just as I suspected.

Unfinished houses, so a property speculator got burned not any family.

A building that did not comply with palnning regulations

Unwanted homes in the Irish Republic

"Banks ARE going to demolish houses they have 'seized' and some not even finished... and this is also happening in the USA...But NOT IN THE UK unlike you, I do not have inside knowledge of UK banks, so if they are hiding it, and the journalists have not yet had it leaked to them I can't find out: I would expect you from your claims of your great experience in banking, and your contacts, to be the one to know, and by playing cute and not informing us, but denying it, you are pedantically right, not in the UK, so you win again!. You are NEVER wrong Sir!

I have no INSIDE knowledge Foolstroupe, unlike you I only apply common sense and logic and do not just transpose events to suit my arguments as you have done in this case. You are also guilty of even perpetuating the myth after having been caught out. If you are going to state something make absolutely certain that that ascertion is based on fact NOT FICTION - Difficult for a socialist I know but please do try - As far as I am concerned I have worked far, far too long in the the oil & gas industry for anybody to try pissing on my back and then try to tell that it is raining.

DMcG - I read the article by King and I thought that it was a very good article and he had many good points on the evils of our banking system and the facets of it that needed changing. Now tell me where in that article "HE" referred to "fat twat bankers", or to "fat twat businessmen" - It is those generalisations so beloved of the trendy-left and socialists in general that I object to. If someone has done what they have said that they will do and they have a bonus deal then that deal should be honoured - that is a contract and that is what has to be honoured period - no bloody debate, no discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 04:37 PM

the message that I was fessin' up to, has disappeared.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 03:54 PM

I don't want to return to the debate as such, but there was an interview published in The Telegraph today with the Governor of the Bank of England that is so relevant it would be shame if you missed it so I've cut and pated it below:

"n the interview, the Bank Governor says: "We allowed a [banking] system to build up which contained the seeds of its own destruction.

"We've not yet solved the 'too big to fail' or, as I prefer to call it, the 'too important to fail' problem.

"The concept of being too important to fail should have no place in a market economy."

When asked whether there could be a repeat of the financial crisis, Mr King says: "Yes. The problem is still there. The search for yield goes on. Imbalances are beginning to grow again."

Mr King, who rarely gives interviews, suggests that the culture of short-term profits and bonuses within the banks may ultimately be responsible for the problems"

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 02:32 PM

that was me sorry!

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 01:53 PM

Poster appears to be Alan Whittle
Strangely enough about ten minutes after seeing your latest message teribus, I got an e-mail from the Musicians Union saying they had organised a series of conferences with HSBC to explain to them how musicians go about earning a living. So the problems still are there. In fact i don't think banks have any bloody interest in how any small businesses work. Same goes for thr tax people.

i was never driven out of business by the bastards, but I know plenty that were.

Big numbers don't impress anyone - it reminds one uncomfortably of Roy castle on record breakers. I don't know how many strings of sausages would reach Mars either.

Your defence of the English banking industry does remind me somewhat of British Leyland. they used to boast that if you went into Aveling Barford with 55 grand and said I want a dumper truck, they would proudly say - sure, the waiting list is five to seven years....

Of course foreign firms came along and said what colour would you like, will next week be soon enough?

The British banking system really is that crap. Its ripe for the taking.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 09:06 AM

I am not an expert on the UK, ...

Should empty, unfinished houses, ghost estates be demolished?

However new and structurally sound houses are often demolished ...
House to be demolished after planning breach

Unwanted homes in Irish Republic could be demolished
This IS happening in Ireland - They have been called the 'ghost estates' of the Irish Republic - about 300,000 homes built in the frenzy of the property boom that no-one wants to live in now.

Banks ARE going to demolish houses they have 'seized' and some not even finished... and this is also happening in the USA... unlike you, I do not have inside knowledge of UK banks, so if they are hiding it, and the journalists have not yet had it leaked to them I can't find out: I would expect you from your claims of your great experience in banking, and your contacts, to be the one to know, and by playing cute and not informing us, but denying it, you are pedantically right, not in the UK, so you win again!. You are NEVER wrong Sir!

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 01:41 AM

No Mr.Whittle I have never worked for a bank, not my line at all. By the way do you live in a time warp? Do you believe in, and always reduce things to wild generalisations, caricatures and stereotypes? The banks and the banking practices you speak of as though they exist today belong to the pre-computer days of forty years ago. Why the short public opening hours in those days? Because each branch of every bank in the country had to manually balance its books to the penny every single day, all correspondence having been dealt with before the bank opened its doors.

"We" have sorted them out have we? How? In what way have "We" sorted them out? Any idea how much international banking earns the United Kingdom? (Damn sight more than steel or coal did, oh sorry I forgot they were such shining examples of how not to run a business that the British tax payer had to pay through the nose to subsidise both until somebody saw sense and cried "Enough".)

You tell me Mr.Whittle what percentage of £2,200,000,000,000 is £1,400,000 and then translate that to your annual income and come back and tell me if your bonus would even exist as a coin of the realm and then explain to me what stikes you as being "modest".

I have been toddling round this planet now for damn near my allocation of three score and ten and have only ever seen one banking crisis (the one we happen to be in the after-shocks of now). No British Bank initiated this crisis, that was done in the United States of America and the centre of combustion was a political decision and policy implemented by Bill Clinton that relaxed the criteria for lending and all was based on the deliberately planted false assumption that loans would be guaranteed by the Federal Reserve Bank, which of course they weren't.

Foolestroupe I would dearly love to know whereabouts in England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland that a family has been turfed out of their house by a bank reclaiming it one week and then the bank is forced to demolish the property because it fell into a derelict condition. That is a story that would have hit the front pages of every single tabloid in the country - as far as I am aware it hasn't.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Mar 11 - 06:35 PM

""The money injected into the banks allowed them to keep operating without them having to call in ALL their loans."

What do you understand by the phrase "allowed them to keep operating"?? Of course the banks continued to lend but were much more circumspect about who they loaned to."

Contradicting yourself?

"And in this thread it is UK banks we are talking about. Although it sounds a bit like an urban myth to me. Logically people living in a house one week, the bank forecloses and reclaims the house and within a year the house has to be pulled down??"

Ok. so no part of Ireland is part of the UK? I stand corrected... :-)

:-P

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 04 Mar 11 - 06:31 PM

What is the matter with you Terribus? did you used to work for a bank or something?

Every body knows that English banks have been acting like arseholes for years. the sort of thing that trades unions were accused of - kid's play to that gang of turds. Restrictive practices....they could have inventedthe term.

The opening hours....absolutely bloody ridiculous. A six hour opening day. All the staff buggering off in the dinner hour when working people needed the bank. Idiotic charges for writing a letter. Idiotic offers of loans, insurance (even when you've got it with them!). Asisine bloody bank managers who want to know - how much a musician earns every month - like they're civil servants. Intransigent rules that they don't apply to their own employees.

Basically they must do about a tenth of the business they could do - if they came down from Planet Mainwaring.

On top of that it turns out the upper echelons have been handing out loans to Russian gangsters and funding General Galtieri's invasion of the Falklands.

now that we've had to sort them out - we should INSIST they improve their services and generally bloody wake up. Then when we've seen some recognition of how bloody hopeless they have been - maybe that will be the time to talk about modest bonuses.

I know what you're going to say. the British banking system is really successful. Well think how much more it could be if it got a little less myopic and delivered a decent service.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Mar 11 - 05:48 PM

Psssst Foolestroupe:

"The money injected into the banks allowed them to keep operating without them having to call in ALL their loans."

What do you understand by the phrase "allowed them to keep operating"?? Of course the banks continued to lend but were much more circumspect about who they loaned to. Rather infuriatingly my son's business got caught by this with the RBS refusing to lend them a modest loan that was fully secured. They got round this by obtaining the finance required elsewhere and once RBS see the increased revenue and turnover of the business due to this investment their business account will be transferred to another bank.

As far as I am aware in the UK there have been no instances of;

"banks having called in loans, got houses which were not then not maintained by the banks and had to be pulled down as derelict, thereby generating a massive loss to the banks."

And in this thread it is UK banks we are talking about. Although it sounds a bit like an urban myth to me. Logically people living in a house one week, the bank forecloses and reclaims the house and within a year the house has to be pulled down?? Were that indeed the case then the house must have been in pretty shit state to start with.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Mar 11 - 05:14 PM

QUOTE
Hang on a minute Al are you seriously trying to say that the money that the Treasury invested in the banks was used to pay the bonuses of senior staff?? Nothing could be further from the truth. The money injected into the banks allowed them to keep operating without them having to call in ALL their loans.

Bonuses were paid out of the profits the banks made, or in the case of the RBS the performance of senior staff in reversing and reducing loss. I do not believe for one minute that bonuses were paid just for people turning up.
UNQUOTE

If the banks were not allowed to 'loan' that money, bonuses would have been the LAST thing to be cut... as implied in what you just said ... calling in ALL their loans would not have got them ALL 'their' money anyway, only barely a tiny fraction of it.

That has been clearly demonstrated by many banks having called in loans, got houses which were not then not maintained by the banks and had to be pulled down as derelict, thereby generating a massive loss to the banks. But all that 'loss' (read waste of resources) was a tax write off, so the banks LOST almost nothing... and many people then homeless and need 'charity' to survive - VERY bad for Society overall, but VERY good for the banks and executives due to the tax losses :-)

A few institutions with the foresight of mind saw that the best way for society overall, was to keep people in those houses paying money, even there there was a temporary dip in cash flow. If a bank calls a loan, then pulls down the house, none of any of that 'loss' should be allowed as a tax write off.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Mar 11 - 02:12 PM

Hang on a minute Al are you seriously trying to say that the money that the Treasury invested in the banks was used to pay the bonuses of senior staff?? Nothing could be further from the truth. The money injected into the banks allowed them to keep operating without them having to call in ALL their loans.

Bonuses were paid out of the profits the banks made, or in the case of the RBS the performance of senior staff in reversing and reducing loss. I do not believe for one minute that bonuses were paid just for people turning up.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 03 Mar 11 - 06:09 AM

Couldn't agree more, but was it the wisest use of the money to you've been lent to increase the money of people who are all doing quite nicely anyway - that's the question. I think if we all lent money to some idiot who then gave it Prince charles for cutting his hedge ( something he was doing anyway) - I think we'd be entitled to say something.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Mar 11 - 12:39 AM

Of course there are thousands of ways of telling a story and all of them are based on people's "perception" of the facts of the matter.

With regard to the "Banks" issue, which is what this thread is about, not hospital porters or hospital closures, the facts as some people here see them lead them to state that "The banks were GIVEN MONEY" - That is incorrect, it is untrue they have not been GIVEN MONEY they were lent the money, or they had to surrender shares in their business. The money supposedly "GIVEN" to the Banks must all be repaid therefore they have been given nothing and the British Treasury who advanced the Banks that money, at the moment, look as though they will make a handsome profit on the deal.

Propping up the banks meant that people's savings were secured, people's loans were secured. Had the money not been lent then those saver's would have lost everything - they didn't.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 06:19 PM

well this is it. You can't stand in another man's shoes and see what he has seen.

I don't know what Steaming Willy was doing when Harlow Wood Hospital was closed. From the orthpaedic patients point of view - it was the wanton destruction of a major public resource.

My wife was in there when they closed the busiest ward and I know for a fact the staff were told it was emptied because they were expecting incoming casualties from the first gulf war Then another ward was closed, then another. then they came clean. I was there.

My wife was the chairman of the local arthritis group at the time. The doctors (consultants and surgeons) approached us begging us to take direct action However the group was under the aegis of Arthritis care at the time, and AC wouldn't want to compromise its charitable status, by getting involved in things political.

We were informed (correctly) that the facilities that were being destroyed were irreplaceable, and that surgeons would simply not be able or willing to perform some of the procedures that were done routinely at Harlow Wood.

The doctors were promised a an entire department at the new Kingsmill facility. By the time of my wife's next procedure (double ankle fusion) there were just two beds on a general medical ward. The staff were not skilled at moving orthopaedic patients and to avoid further suffering I took her home after about four days (on the advice of the experienced nursing staff). She needed the kind of recuperation and specialist help that HW could have done easily.

Okay - so Steamin has got figures to show he improved things by 30%. I'd say things got worse by about 95%. And the luxury executive houses on the forest site of HW were snapped up at five hundred grand apiece, which I suspect has been a pretty good investment for a few.

I don't accuse Steamin of any dishonesty or villainy. he probably did what he was told was right with the facts he had. But there were other facts and factors, even if he wasn't aware of them.

And I guess thats how it is with Teribus - not a bad bloke. But he shows no awareness or the maturity to realise - there are two ways of telling a story.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 05:49 PM

"None of the above has got anything whatsoever to do with Banking or the bonuses paid to senior management in banks - True?? "

False - the banks make money directly out of most of those, and indirectly make money out of most of the rest by storing and processing, and making available the loan funds of those of who do - hence the big fat bonuses!

Ta da!

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 05:30 PM

"because on the subjects I do contribute on I apply logic, reason and inspect the facts in so far as they are known"

But only as they 'are known to you' - that's just a personal opinion. You display a considerable refusal to accept the opinions of others, as you know that only your opinion is 'correct', through circular reasoning. You also claim that the reason you can reject other's opinions is because of this, ie, that their opinions are based on circular reasoning, just to support their own bias.

This means no progress from fixed positions based on faith. Sort like 'a battle of religions' really.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 04:05 AM

Teribus, you are coming accross as a bit obsesive.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 03:18 AM

The same here DMcG.

I will leave my thread to Teribus. Enjoy.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 02:24 AM

In another thread, I said when we get to this point one should civilly bid the other good day. So, Teribus, we strongly disagree, but you have set out your position clearly as I hope I have mine. There are many more objections to your arguments I could make, and no doubt you would make counter-arguments and so the thread would continue to no purpose for a long time. I see no value in that.

So: goodbye, and till we meet in another thread, do well.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 12:10 AM

Arthur all you have shown by your remarks are the "chips" on bother shoulders.

You might well have "been there" but you obviously did not deduce or perceive anything. Anyone over the age of 25 who believes that individual "fat twat businessmen" own the majority of shares in the world still has his head in some sort of Boy's Own Comic.

Pension Funds; Insurance Companies; Investment Funds; Governments own the majority of shares in the world, not private individuals.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 06:01 PM

Mr Hanson, didn't notice you addressing the point made

Am I always in a minority here? Maybe because I do not regard it as a popularity contest. Maybe because on the subjects I do contribute on I apply logic, reason and inspect the facts in so far as they are known. Maybe because instead of slavishly spouting what some "blogger" who happens to agree with my point of view says, I go back to the source and find out what he actually said and work out what my opinion is from there. Maybe it is because I wish to make some effort to correct the endless stream of leftist bullshit, that seems to pervade the threads, all of which are gross misrepresentations, half-truths, downright lies and complete and utter myths.

Example:
Hands up all those who believe that the Banks were GIVEN money??

Truth is that they weren't GIVEN anything were they? They got the money either as a loan or in exchange for stock and that every penny has to be paid back.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 03:02 PM

Just a thought Teribus, have you ever given any thought to why you are always in a minority here ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 02:59 PM

Good man Teribus, the best form of defence is attack.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 02:56 PM

Teribus
Why do you assume that none of us have banking experience?

I worked for many years involved in cross currency funding for European and Middle East Countries involving all the top banks worldwide and dealing in LARGE amounts of diverse foriegn currencies.

I also got invited occasionally to the fat twat parties (money no object).

The only thing is I didn't get those repulsive bonuses. But I did get to see how they operated.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 01:59 PM

This is what I love about "Socialists" and the trendy left:

Dave Hanson - PM
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 03:33 AM

Teribus has nailed his colours to the mast, ' none of it concerns me '
child prostitution, sweatshop labour, child poverty, paedophiles exploiting children ? nowt to do wi' me guv.

I pity you.

Dave H

Foolestroupe - PM
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 02:17 AM

"what those running a company do that I do not work for and have no part of does not concern me, so I keep my nose out of their business and my opinions to myself, because what they do does not affect me or anybody else outside that company."


... including gas fracking destroying water repositories, cyanide poisoning of many in India, global warming by excess pollution (sorry, Mr T does not believe in that one!), ...

The transfer of one statement which when all said and done and taken in context is addressing the payment of bonuses by banks then all of a sudden I am apparently automatically in favour of:

- Child prostitution?
- Sweatshop Labour?
- Child Poverty?
- Paedophiles exploiting children?

- gas fracking destroying water repositories?
- cyanide poisoning of many in India?
- global warming by excess pollution?

None of the above has got anything whatsoever to do with Banking or the bonuses paid to senior management in banks - True??

Now then Hanson and Foolestroupe if you actually want my views on those then open threads to discuss them, on this thread stick with the subject. Do not take what I have said out of context and then attribute views and positions that are not mine to me. It just doesn't wash. As far as voicing pity goes Hanson save it, I really do pity the pair of you having to stumble through life employing what you demonstrate here as your skill in reasoning and logic.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 11:52 AM

If the road sweepers, dustbin men and street cleaners etc. couldn't do a good job without such incentives or massive bonus's we'd all be up to our necks in shit.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST,Steamin
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 10:48 AM

Alan Whittle;

Harlow Wood was closed for a number of reasons, the main one being the clinical risk of having a trauma and orthopaedic unit over 20 mins blue light from the main hospital. Techniques improve all the time and operations on more sick patients is easier, but at the cost of centralising services. what was appropriate to be done in small hospitals scattered all over once is not the situation now. Centralising and increasing the peer pool in medical staffing is the only way to carry out procedures on people who up till recently could not be treated. Yep, a bit of a bugger for localising of services, but a leap forward for treatment.

Also, the on cost of running the place, (same as Ransom Hospital) meant that getting rid put over 30% more money into direct patient care.

The reasons for closure you referred to existed in the minds of Alan Meale and the Chad. Certainly didn't exist in the minds of those trying to run NHS services.

ANYWAY

RBS bonuses?   Yeah, I don't like it, but considering how the banks are pulling the economy back on course, there has to be some incentive. Just a bit obscene in terms of the amount, not the principle.

if banks and multinationals were hanging from lamp posts, you couldn't afford a computer to type out diatribe. Think about it. Banging rocks together isn't my idea of an afternoon's enjoyment.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 03:33 AM

Teribus has nailed his colours to the mast, ' none of it concerns me '
child prostitution, sweatshop labour, child poverty, paedophiles exploiting children ? nowt to do wi' me guv.

I pity you.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 02:17 AM

"what those running a company do that I do not work for and have no part of does not concern me, so I keep my nose out of their business and my opinions to myself, because what they do does not affect me or anybody else outside that company."


... including gas fracking destroying water repositories, cyanide poisoning of many in India, global warming by excess pollution (sorry, Mr T does not believe in that one!), ...

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 02:04 AM

Can't recall calling anyone fat anythings. I'm doing weightwatchers myself since the new year - so its not my favourite term of abuse.

Bit of sophistry there though eh? Not our money, because its been paid as tax. Our ex- money then..... the money formerly known as ours. I'm sure Harriet Shaw Weaver felt a mild kinship with the loot that James Joyce was pissing up the wall, even though she had transferred its ownership. Its an unmistakeable feeling in the canon of human experience - seeing money pissed way that someone (perhaps not even ourselves) has sweated blood for. Perhaps you have been spared it so far in life - but you'll be lucky if you escape the feeling this side of the grave.

For nearly fifty years now - you have had to have your money paid into a bank account. I can remember when my Dad was not paid (as a policeman) in cash for the first time. All his mates in the force were pissed off. Banks have insinated themselves into the fabric of England and become part of our way of life. they overcharge ruthlessly and systematically and routinely for any bit of a service they perform. I've lost count of he number of times Ombudsmen and consumer groups have spotted their villainies - but no one ever cleans that particular Augean stables.

No they aren't our business. But they're bloody bad business at every opportunity. try and tell how bloody wonderful they are to all the small businessmen of England they have foreclosed on, when a few weeks credit might have helped them weather the storms - usually fomented by idiotic government policies. Often its just the government who need a damn good kick up the arse to protect a section of society. I remember being in Looe one week and every single fishing boat in the harbour had been foreclosed on. One or two - could have been mismanagement - but the whole lot!

Blame Bill Clinton if it helps you. but I think the enemy is within.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 12:47 AM

You miss the point Mr.Whittle, what those running a company do that I do not work for and have no part of does not concern me, so I keep my nose out of their business and my opinions to myself, because what they do does not affect me or anybody else outside that company.

Collectively calling people "fat twat bankers" or "fat twat businessmen" just because the sheep will bleat their approval does not help the argument or the situation. The majority of senior executives and CEO's of large companies have got to the positions they hold by their own efforts and sheer hard work.

Oh by the bye the people are not funding the banks, the Treasury is, the money ceased to be yours, or mine the second we paid it in taxes to the Inland Revenue. Will the Treasury make a profit on their investment, yes they will (It currently stands at about 300%), will we the tax payer get any advanyage from that? Possibly but I doubt whether we will see any benefit of it.

What benefit we did see of the intervention was that savings did not get lost and the system struggled on and that preserved jobs, there would have been wholesale destruction otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 05:33 PM

' I couldn't care a toss whether it is fair or not'

Well I suppose we have different thresholds when it comes to unfairness. At what point would you object to a practice being unfair?

Causing suffering to innocent people, kids being stuffed in a gas chamber, cruelty to dumb animals, stealing someone's life savings....

They say James Joyce came to London and splashed money about wantonly - five quid tips to taxi drivers, the best hotel suites -under the nose of the lady who funded him and was his patroness and lived very humbly. I think the British tax payer feels abit like that patroness now. Disappointed but really surprised - its the nature of the beast. The difference I suppose is that the people funding the baks extravagant bonus system are not eccentric millionaires, and I doubt if we will get a masterpiece in return.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 04:44 PM

Barclay's Eh?? The Peoples Protest - What a bloody laugh!!!

The spokesman for the "Protest" wittering on about Bank Debts being taken on by the public (Treasury actually) and how all the bonuses paid are objectionable. Pity the Prat hadn't done some research, if he had he would have had the common sense to pick a different Bank. Why?? Because Barclays did not take a single penny of the sums allocated to bail out the Banks.

I run a company and senior managagement within that company are paid performance linked bonuses. They meet their targets I will pay the bonuses and no clown outside my company is going to tell me, or convince me to do any different. After all it has nothing whatsoever to do with them, none of their business at all.

You can delegate work, you cannot delegate decisions or direction.

"try being out of a job" How do you know that I haven't? Rhetorical question YOU DON'T. In fact I have but didn't blame anyone else for it, and I went out and looked till I got another job as that was my responsibility to do that, not the Government's or anybody else's.

"How much do the rest of the Banks staff get paid in their bonuses,"

Not a clue and that is none of my business or yours. I couldn't care a toss whether it is fair or not as it does not affect me or anyone else outside of the company in question, entirely their affair. You have no "right" to praise, object or condemn the practice.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST,folkiedave
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 06:40 AM

A banker, a worker and Teribus are sat around the table having coffee. There are twelve biscuits.

The banker takes eleven biscuits and leans over to Teribus and says:

"Watch that worker, he is after your biscuit".

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 06:16 AM

I agree, Alan, and "we're all in it together" is a great example of such a catchphrase. Take financing degrees, for example. It is always presented as either the taxpaxer pays or the student pays. Hello, don't businesses also benefit? Historically, businesses have funded education in many ways, such as apprenticeships, explicit training courses, sponserships and so on. But suddenly Browne simply states "businesses pay through higher salaries" and that's the end of all discussion. Even if you agree, there are are questions of whether they pay enough that way (or even too much), but no, the questions are not even to be asked. For example, it seems at least an option that businesses could pay a graduate tax based on how many graduates they employ. It may be an absurd idea, or a great one, but it is at least an option which could be discussed...isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 05:44 AM

Teribus.....words fail me


Look when politicians come up with a catchphrase....weapons of mass destruction, the politics of envy, the green shoots of recovery, the pound in your pocket, the big society, free collective bargaining...they don't expect intelligent people like yourself to take them seriously.

This is birdfood set out to catch the birdbrains. Sometimes they fool us. But the correct response is to shuffle about in a guilty fashion....not proudly to repeat the idiocies thirty years later.

Unless you are still actually a proud member of the 'share owning democracy'. In which case, I'm sure you look great in a kipper tie.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 05:35 AM

Nor is it just that, Folkiedave. Although there is inevitably a measure of carping, people are broadly comfortable with what Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, sports stars and so on get. Criticism about transfer fees is much more likely to be based on whether such fees damage the game or are beyond a club's resources, rather than whether the individual is worth it, for example. So it is not as crude as 'bash the rich'. I would say that this sort of wealth is more acceptable is because the individuals are largely seen to be earning it, not simply being entitled to it. Such a distinction seems to be difficult for Teribus to grasp.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 05:33 AM

How much do the rest of the Banks staff get paid in their bonuses, Teribus??????

Do they operate like Waitrose, where ALL staff are seen as partners in the company?

Methinks....not.

Greedy, Selfish Bastards, or GSB's for short, is what the Bankers are, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 05:22 AM

It isn't so much the politics of envy Teribus - it is the politics of have much fairer sharing of the wealth that is created. And believe me it isn't created by banks.

Remember we are all in this together, except those like bankers who apparently aren't.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 05:18 AM

For work-related pressure - try being out of a job.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 04:56 AM

"They are also dealing day-to-day with a great deal more work related pressure in one year than most of us experience in one lifetime, or are you of the opinion that running a major financial institution in these times is just a "piece of piss" that anyone could do?"

So they 'delegate' nothing? .....

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 04:14 AM

Here ya go, Teribus...what those bonuses are now bringing....

Barclays - The People's Protest

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 02:09 AM

Oh, Teribus, you seem have decided what we think and then not thought about we say about it. I havent 'bashed the banker' at all; I haven't even said the bonus he got was excessive, and I certainly haven't said he wasn't entitled to it - in fact I've said the opposite. Our criticisms have been about the bonus culture which can be summarised as follows:

i) for a huge number of people, like Alan's porters - there is no question of bonuses. They simply don't happen.

ii) for many others, there is the possibility of bonuses, but in practice actually getting them depends upon doing something exceptional, wehich means that most of them don't get one.

iii) a relatively small proportion of people get a bonus based on how the company as a whole is doing - the performance related bonus. Even here, there is generally a modification of overall bonus based on how they as individuals have behaved.

iv) for a minute proportion of people, they do not have to demonstrate in any way that the performance of the company has anything at all to do with them to get the bonus.

And we don't think that's a very just system. No-one says life is fair, to preempt your usual response. But that is no reason just to accept it.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 12:17 AM

"Oh dear, oh dear, there's a rich man he must have robbed somebody to acquire that wealth, let's take it away from him so that he'll then be as bloody miserable as the rest of us" - Socialism the politics of envy that can only guarantee in delivering poverty and despair.

So bonuses are only paid for actions "above and beyond" eh?? No they are not, they are performanace related and to "earn them", "deserve them", to be "entitled to them" you must have met the target and conditions set for that bonus being paid.

The "let's bash the banker, we are entitled to attack and destroy the man's property because he is a banker" is basically wrong and illegal.

When you say that the problem arose from banks lending money they did not have, they lent money on the income they were supposed to get from loans made to people who should never have been given loans in the first place. But that was done on the falsehood that in the USA the Federal Bank would step in to guarantee those loans - It didn't. The cause of the banking crisis in the UK and elsewhere round the world lay in the collapse of the US sub-prime loan market.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST,folkiedave
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 04:27 PM

The other point Teribus fails to take account of is that Bonus £1,400,000 tax to be paid £700,000 is actually a myth.

Whose money do you think is stuffed in off-shore accounts? The very first thing people like this do is hire an expert tax accountant to minimise the tax they pay.

In addition these fat cats tend not to pay for things like I do. Who do you think fills the vast numbers of corporate seats at events like the Olympics?

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 02:04 PM

Well said Al.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 10:13 AM

My wife used to have all her operations done in a specialist orthopaedic hospital called harlow Wood, near Mansfield.

The porters there were really skilled in dealing with and lifting patients who were in pain. they received no bonuses, or extra payments in recognition of their sperior skills. They could not afford to eat in the subsidised staff restaurant. None of them really got what you'd call a proper holiday - just perhaps a bus excursion once or twice a year. They used to ask me if I minded them taking the puzzle magazines from my wife's trash - my wife doesn't like wordsearches - and they couldn't afford the magazines themselves.

The hospital was closed - the first Thatcherite pretext was to cater for incoming troops from the first gulf war. Eventually they just admitted they closed the place because they wanted to flog the site for 'executive' housing. The specialist skills contained in that hospital were scattered to the four corners.

Teribus - you really need to re-assess how you evaluate people's contribution to society and their relative values.

Money and its adminsitrators know no loyalty, no innate decency - it is a narrow discipline. Its focus is intense and it has no favourites. if you imagine your one and a half million is buying you anything but contempt from the man who's pocket you put it into. You are deluding yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 09:55 AM

Sounds like your answer to my question is "no" then, Teribus. I don't remember claiming that was the only bonus paid: in fact I pointed out that many people get bonuses, but certainly everywhere I've worked the line has been "doing your job gets you your salary. Bonuses reflect actions above and beyond your job". Sorry if that strikes you as daft but it's common for many.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 09:34 AM

The cause of the crash was the banks lending money they didn't have to people who couldn't afford to pay it back. It really is as simple as that.

Frankly there should be no bonuses until the total borrowed is paid back. And no losses to be set against tax. And how much of this money is on the back of setting things right that they got wrong?

Separate the investment arm of banking from the retail arm. These people do NOT gamble with their money - they gamble with our money.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Brian May
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 09:30 AM

Testing cookie

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST,Brian May
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 09:28 AM

For some reason my cookie didn't work.

Lizzie, that last post was from me - just being cheeky.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 09:26 AM

Lizzie:

How long have you had this problem with self-expression love?

I think you'd feel more liberated if you just said what you think instead of always pulling your punches . . .

;o)

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 09:22 AM

It's probably not 100% accurate Teribus but it always seems to be you that springs to the defence of the rich and greedy.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 09:16 AM

"The bank DID make that profit, but EVERYONE in the company contributed by their actions. So you cannot say he deserved it simly onh that figure, because it is quite possible in principle for him to sit in the office doing nothing but everyone else continue to work hard and turhn in that same profit."

Without any shadow of a doubt the daftest thing I have read in ages.

Tell me DMcG was the £1.4 million bonus paid the ONLY BONUS PAID?? - Rhetorical question of course it was not.

So "it is quite possible in principle for him to sit in the office doing nothing but everyone else continue to work hard and turn in that same profit"

Possible? yes in principle anything is possible, but probable? in this case highly improbable. To turn round vast concerns from a course upon which they are headed for ruin to turning a profit requires decisions made right at the top. Tell me DMcG what things have you been in charge of and responsible for where you have sat and done nothing and just let others do all the work? How did it pan out for you?

Am I a Banker? - No. An apologist? - No. I am just fed up with people trotting out the populist myths expecting everyone else to swallow them hook line and sinker.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 05:12 AM

I also apologise for all the typos. I shouldn't try to do this from a mobile phone!

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 05:10 AM

Sorry for the mess up on the HTML there, folks. If an elf could sort the closing underline, I'd be grateful.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 05:09 AM

The bank made a £2,200,000,000,000 profit, when it was forecast to make a loss. You tell me did the man in charge do well or not?

You miss my point. The bank DID make that profit, but EVERYONE in the company contributed by their actions. So you cannot say he deserved it simly onh that figure, because it is quite possible in principle for him to sit in the office doing nothing but everyone else continue to work hard and turhn in that same profit.

So to decide if he deserved it, as opposed to merely being entitled to it because of what the contract said, you need to find some decision he took that contributed to the bottom lone. But also it is likely that the vast majority of his decisions were, I imagine, virtually the same as whoever was second perferred candidate for his position when he was appointed. That is, they were the decisions that any high quality CEO-alike would have made.

So I ask again, can you point to anything he did that dersrved the bonus, rather than merely be entitled to it?

As for whether I have the foggiest clue about the subject that [I am] commenting on, you seem to be missing the point everyone else is making, which I have underlined here to assist you: the difference between deserving something and being entitled to it.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 04:09 AM

Hey Teribus, you a banker or just an apologist ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 04:03 AM

"What your "Carers Allowance" is and the conditions that apply to it is something you should take up with the government, your real "beef" should be with those sponging off the system and robbing you. Not people who are in work, paying one hell of a lot in taxes."


The Bloody Bankers HAVE robbed and financially raped half the planet!

Just in case you've missed that....

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 03:51 AM

Nope, I'd not want millions, or if I had them, I'd give them away...Money holds nothing for me, Teribus...

However, the death of Honour and Integrity within my country, the rise and rise of Despicable Greed brings me down and makes me hugely angry...

As I said in another thread, this is NOT what my Father went to war for in 1939, this is what he went to war AGAINST!

IF those bankers were publicly announcing that they were giving 90% of their bonuses away to charity, and being seen to do as well, then I may have a smidgeon of respect for them, but as they are.....Fuck 'em!

Thank you...

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 03:42 AM

Pure envy Lizzie.

What your "Carers Allowance" is and the conditions that apply to it is something you should take up with the government, your real "beef" should be with those sponging off the system and robbing you. Not people who are in work, paying one hell of a lot in taxes.

So life is "not fair"!!! STOP THE PRESSES

Perhaps you should have been a banker.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 03:19 AM

"Bonus £1,400,000 tax to be paid £700,000 - More tax paid in one year than you have paid in your entire life Arthur. The guy that was paid the bonus will probably be paying on the 50% rate on his earnings as well. "


Oh! How my heart doth bleed for him!!!

Hey, Teribus, I get taxed on the Carer's Allowance I get for looking after my 96 year old ex-mother-in-law...and because I get Carer's Allowance I cannot get a job where I'm paid more than just over £100 a week, after tax.   I cannot claim Job Seeker's Allowance either, because my 'job' is seen as being a Carer..

The Carer's Allowance is a few pennies over £52 a week, and I'd get that no matter how many people I was looking after, as they only award it ONCE, not per person who needs the caring...

Cool, huh?

Strangely, no-one gives me a fucking fantastic bonus for doing this either, despite me...and thousands of other Carers around the country, saving this country MILLIONS in Care Home Fees which would come out of the WankerBankers Taxes...

So....'scuse me for not having an OUNCE of sympathy for these Greedy Bastards, won't you...

They're slimebags, in my view, and nowt else..and they don't give a shite for their customers, the ones....you know...the ones who've made them rich and wealthy.

They live for money, for profit and nothing else.

Fuck 'em all.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 02:41 AM

RBS in February 2010 shares were worth around 34.50 pence per share
RBS in February 2011 shares are worth 45.65 pence per share
At their lowest in January 2009 the share price was 10.9 pence per share. So basically for every £1,000,000 HM Treasury bought into RBS with in 2009 they would now get back £4,188,073 back (300% profit on investment in two years. And that is BAD???)

I would say that the trend is headed in the right direction.

On losses:

2008 - £24,300,000,000,000
2010 - £1,100,000,000,000

The forecast is that the Bank will return to profit this year, so again it is headed in the right direction. I would say that having worked that loss down to the extent that he has done and refused bonuses for the past two years and reduced bonuses paid by 27% then yes the head of the RBS does deserve his bonus. After all it was not his fault that the Bank ended up where it did, he came into to run things AFTER the crash.

By 2013 RBS MUST sell its insurance operations Direct Line and Churchill because of EU Regulations, this is expected to raise a great deal, again to the benefit of the Treasury who actually own 83% of the Bank (The "tax payer" does not).

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 08:51 PM

Bonus £1,400,000 tax to be paid £700,000 - More tax paid in one year than you have paid in your entire life Arthur. The guy that was paid the bonus will probably be paying on the 50% rate on his earnings as well.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 08:45 PM

Dave Hanson; DMcG; Arthur itus; Brian May. From the comments that you have made on this issue you obviously do not have the foggiest clue about the subject that you are commenting on so viciferously.

"these fat twat bankers are getting more money in one year than most of us get in one lifetime,"

They are also dealing day-to-day with a great deal more work related pressure in one year than most of us experience in one lifetime, or are you of the opinion that running a major financial institution in these times is just a "piece of piss" that anyone could do? If you do think that way then thankyou and goodnight, you are not worth talking to you are a f**kin' idiot.

"Deserved? Bonuses for salesmen are by and large based on product sold and profit made. .......So to say this guy deserved it I reckon you need to point to decisions taken that would not have been taken by anyone else in that position instead. So can you point to something he actually did that was distinguishable and gave an income to the company many times greater than the bonus?"

The bank made a £2,200,000,000,000 profit, when it was forecast to make a loss. You tell me did the man in charge do well or not? If on performance you are promised a bonus, you make that target and the bonus is withheld would you just shrug your shoulders and accept that? Somehow I very much doubt it. The size of the bonuses paid in total in Lloyds would not measure very much in comparison to the profit made, so yes they earned it, they deserved it. 40% of that profit will be appreciated by the British Government, who if the sold their stake in the Bank today at a discounted share price would make a clear profit of some £20,000,000,000,000 (Clear Profit means = that much on top of every single penny they gave the bank in the first place) Obviously if they did the same with RBS it would be one hell of a lot more.

So "bailing out the banks" made:

1. Extremely good sense

2. Will result in one hell of a windfall for the British Government

Another couple of points:

A: The "fat twat bankers" were GIVEN NOTHING. If anybody has any evidence to counter that statement please provide th details.

B: The Banks were GIVEN NOTHING. One way or another they have to repay every penny with interest.

"It's bloody disgraceful"

Waht is? That the business made a profit and those responsible were paid a bonus?

The banks are being charged "windfall" taxes, the banks are paying everything back. You the tax payer paid your taxes to the Government, the Government then gave that money to the banks to ensure that the banks did not collapse, the Government will then recoup the tax-payers money that they lent to the banks and in the cases where they actually acquired shares in the banks they will get the profit on the sale of shares. The Government will make a profit regardless. The minute you pay your taxes to the Government the money ceases to be "yours".

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Brian May
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 05:58 PM

I wonder what they'd say if I said I wanted some of that money - apparently it's ours after all - everyone says it's the taxpayers' money. I'm a taxpayer, ergo it's my money.

I wasn't aware that I had a choice in the matter.

It's interesting, the line we keep being fed is : If we don't pay these bonuses, then we'll lose the most talented bankers.

Would these be the same bankers that got us into this mess in the first place, or are they the replacements?

Presumably if they're the same - why have they still got a job? The also don't deserve a bonus when the rest of us are suffering to pay all this money back.

If they are replacements, then let them walk and more replacements will be found - if that is what happened before. Why should they win both ways?

And . . . pray tell me, where all these 'hotshots' are going - are there that many jobs out there?

Let 'em go.

Lots of industries get rid of highly paid staff and replace them with lower paid ones - why should banking be any different? Seems to me the 'old-guard' hotshots didn't to too well, why would replacement staff do anything worse?

It would appear that if we own 83% of the bank then we should get some of the profits or bonuses . . . ah, but we don't own it do we? We just have to pay for the **** ups.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 12:13 PM

It's bloody disgraceful.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 12:09 PM

Deserved? Bonuses for salesmen are by and large based on product sold and profit made. Ditto traders and so forth. So to say this guy deserved it I reckon you need to point to decisions taken that would not have been taken by anyone else in that position instead. So can you point to something he actually did that was distinguishable and gave an income to the company many times greater than the bonus?

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 11:39 AM

And don't forget what posh Dave told us, we're all in it together, now don't you all feel better about it ? these fat twat bankers are getting more money in one year than most of us get in one lifetime, yeah we're all in it together Dave.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 11:20 AM

Statement 1:

"IDGAF what the fat twat's contract says. If they make a loss, bonuses shouldn't be given."

Statement 2:

"Lloyds made a 2.2.bn profit and the fat twat there got a bonus of 1.4million."

So they made a Profit and you are still carping on about it?? Does envy enter into the picture at all here? Because "logic" seems to have left by the back door ages ago.

What your State Pension represents as a percentage of his Bonus (obviously performance related and deserved) is totally irrelevant. His bonus as a percentage of what profit he made the bank is minute, your pension as a percentage of your final years earnings will be much higher.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 11:01 AM

It's an aweful lot of money if you compare it to my State Pension.

Now let me see £6,240 versus £1,400,000. My pension equates to 0.4% of his bonus, which I assume is a yearly bonus.

Don't talk to me about fat twat bankers :-( grrrrrrr

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 02:54 AM

Just remember one thing, the crisis that hit the financial sector emanated from the United States of America. The President and administration responsible was William Jefferson Clinton who forced US Mortgage Brokers Freddie Mac and Fanny Mae into brokeraging mortgages for people who could only ever be desribed as being "High Risk". The banks who actually had to lend this money were hoodwinked into believing that the US Federal Bank would guarantee these loans, Neither the President, his administration, Freddie Mac or Fanny Mae did anything to clarify this point and correct this misunderstanding.

The 2000 Election saw a new Presidententer the White House who had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with this set up, so when these high risk debtors start defaulting and the banks start to get nervous they start applying to the Federal Bank, who tell them thay have not got a clue about any guarantees. The US banks then start off-loading their debts by selling them on, this time they peddle the lie about Fedral Bank Guarantees. Banks, insurance companies, investment and pension funds all over the world buy into it. Then comes the crash.

When it did strike GWB moves to intervene, but unfortunately for him it is election year and the closing stages of the election itself. He asks for $700 million in Novemebr but Barak Obama and the Democrats want to make some political capital out of it and delay the intervention, and the crisis deepens. Barak Obama wins the 2008 election but cannot intervene until 19th January at the earliest. If they say that a week is a long time in politics it is a f**king eternity in finance. Barak Obama finally does step in, in his usual "grandstanding style" only now it is $834 million and the slide has started. Had the Fed stepped in in November then the fall might have been arrested and the effects a lot less dramatic.

So Arthur;

"Lloyds made a 2.2.bn profit and the fat twat there got a bonus of 1.4million. How much FFS."

The bank, under this fat twat's direction, makes a profit of £2,200,000,000,000 (I take it that it is a UK billion, 12 zeros, we are talking about here?) and "the fat twat" gets a bonus of £1,400,000 and this astounds you, work out that bonus as a percentage of the profit he made for the bank (It is minute), then tell me if the bank was even forecast to make a profit at all.

"I would guess that the majority of shares in most cases are owned by fat twat wealthy business men."

In the case of RBS 83% of the shares are owned by the British Government not "fat twat wealthy business men". In the case of Lloyds it is around 40% of the shares owned by the British Government. Most shares are in fact owned by Insurance Companies, Investment Funds and Pension Funds. In its hey-day one of the largest players on the LSE was the NUM Pension Fund - So much for "fat twat wealthy businessmen" a hell of a lot of whom owe their fortunes to their own hard work, difficult concept for a "socialist" to grasp I know but there you have it.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 01:18 AM

Drift ~~ but remember that Canute was only pretending to order the sea back, thus proving to his flattering courtiers that he could NOT hold back the tide so he was not as all-powerful as they persisted in asserting. As my late wife wrote in one of her novels, "History has given Canute the wrong footnote".

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 05:59 AM

Ah, 20/20 hindsight eh?

Vilifying bankers is popular as a sport and with some justification.

However, we can either keep castigating them for lack of tact and social skills until we sink as a country or we can accept that a coin has two sides.

As they got us in the mess in the first place, it occurs to me that such power also means only they can get us out again.

Brown did try for international consensus in curbing bank and multinational threats by global rules, but didn't manage it. Mind you, at least he tried.

Intervention by the government before the banks needed it doesn't sound an intelligent argument to me. Some of the banks, Barclays for instance, didn't need it at all.

Unless the intervention you are talking about is state control per se, in which case forget it. Marx & co never predicted the planet to be able to work as one in terms of trade, and never looked further than a nation state and its needs.

Internet, cheap flights and the need for trade to feed your population means Adam Smith won that particular round, leaving Carl Marx sagging on the ropes.

I don't like the bonuses either and find them irresponsible, but it would be more irresponsible of the government if banks and multinationals left and based themselves elsewhere.

There's a reason why they are in London and not Brussels, and it isn't just the mayo poured onto chips in all the ruddy cafes......

Oh, and we get 50% + of the big bonuses.

Not to mention the rest ploughing into local economies.

Lesson 101 Trade. it doesn't have to be beautiful to be effective.

Mind you, if the government felt they had to support public sector in the same way they feel they have to support bankers, we might have a better economy anyway. We need people to spend in order to afford a social program. Something Osborne is fighting against, and all the time looking rather like King Canute.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 05:45 AM

IDGAF what the fat twat's contract says. If they make a loss, bonuses shouldn't be given.

As for stocks and shares, they are no indication of a company doing well. They are so volatile and once again, I would guess that the majority of shares in most cases are owned by fat twat wealthy business men.

Lloyds made a 2.2.bn profit and the fat twat there got a bonus of 1.4million. How much FFS.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 05:35 AM

"Had the banks been allowed to collapse every single person who had anything in any bank would have lost it all without any hope of getting it back, which is why intervention had to happen."

And if intervention had happened earlier perhaps we would not have had to bail the banks out in the first place. Why don't you grow up, Teribus, you patronising, forelock-tugging Tory ... person!

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 01:58 AM

What did the "fat twat boss's" contract state?

Over the last 3 months the RBS share price has gone from 44.90 to 45.60 the British tax payer owns 83% of RBS, tell me in the last 3 months have the British tax payers gained or lost? Rhetorical question old son they have gained - Banks and Bankers were not GIVEN money FFS they were lent money every single penny of it will have to be repaid and as far as the UK tax payer goes with regard to Lloyds and RBS they will make a handsome profit on the deal.

Had the banks been allowed to collapse every single person who had anything in any bank would have lost it all without any hope of getting it back, which is why intervention had to happen. Is that logical enough for everyone? If not then grow up. Read into situations and accept pragmatic solutions instead of sticking to failed political dogma.

Subject: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 05:22 PM

I have just seen a fat twat boss from RBS (which has been our families bank for many years) explaining why he gets a bonus after a 1.3 billion loss.

I am angry that such a twat can smile and get away with it.

Disgraceful.