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Lyr Req: Swan Necked Valve

John in Brisbane 08 Sep 99 - 10:18 PM
Wally Macnow 09 Sep 99 - 03:45 PM
Art Thieme 09 Sep 99 - 04:19 PM
Art Thieme 09 Sep 99 - 04:25 PM
bigJ 09 Sep 99 - 04:27 PM
Wally Macnow 09 Sep 99 - 04:53 PM
bigJ 09 Sep 99 - 05:30 PM
Susanne (skw) 09 Sep 99 - 07:08 PM
bigJ 09 Sep 99 - 08:13 PM
Wally Macnow 09 Sep 99 - 10:08 PM
Art Thieme 09 Sep 99 - 10:16 PM
Wally Macnow 09 Sep 99 - 10:31 PM
Susanne (skw) 10 Sep 99 - 06:18 PM
Bob the Postman 20 Jan 11 - 10:10 AM
Jim McLean 20 Jan 11 - 05:02 PM
Bob the Postman 20 Jan 11 - 05:56 PM
GUEST,Manatee Gordon 20 Jan 11 - 06:00 PM
Bob the Postman 21 Jan 11 - 11:27 AM
Dave Sutherland 21 Jan 11 - 12:16 PM
Bob the Postman 22 Jan 11 - 11:37 AM
Kenny B 22 Jan 11 - 04:05 PM
Bob the Postman 23 Jan 11 - 01:09 PM
The Fooles Troupe 24 Jan 11 - 01:48 AM
The Fooles Troupe 24 Jan 11 - 02:00 AM
The Fooles Troupe 24 Jan 11 - 02:08 AM
Bob the Postman 24 Jan 11 - 10:34 PM
The Fooles Troupe 25 Jan 11 - 05:55 AM
Bob the Postman 25 Jan 11 - 08:43 AM
The Fooles Troupe 26 Jan 11 - 03:03 AM
Jim Dixon 28 Jan 11 - 08:23 AM
Bob the Postman 28 Jan 11 - 09:43 PM
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Subject: Tune Add: SWAN-NECKED VALVE
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 08 Sep 99 - 10:18 PM

Here's the tune, anyone care to post? Regards, John

MIDI file: swanneck.mid

Timebase: 96

Text: SWAN-NECKED VALVE
Key: G
Tempo: 120 (500000 microsec/crotchet)
TimeSig: 4/4 24 8
Key: G
Key: G
Key: G
Start
0288 1 62 064 0096 0 62 064 0000 1 59 064 0096 0 59 064 0000 1 62 064 0096 0 62 064 0000 1 62 064 0096 0 62 064 0000 1 62 064 0096 0 62 064 0000 1 59 064 0096 0 59 064 0000 1 62 064 0096 0 62 064 0000 1 62 064 0096 0 62 064 0000 1 62 064 0096 0 62 064 0000 1 67 064 0096 0 67 064 0000 1 71 064 0096 0 71 064 0000 1 69 064 0096 0 69 064 0000 1 67 064 0096 0 67 064 0000 1 67 064 0000 0 67 064 0096 1 67 064 0096 0 67 064 0000 1 71 064 0096 0 71 064 0000 1 69 064 0096 0 69 064 0000 1 69 064 0096 0 69 064 0000 1 67 064 0096 0 67 064 0000 1 71 064 0096 0 71 064 0000 1 69 064 0096 0 69 064 0000 1 69 064 0096 0 69 064 0000 1 69 064 0096 0 69 064 0000 1 67 064 0096 0 67 064 0000 1 69 064 0096 0 69 064 0000 1 71 064 0096 0 71 064 0000 1 67 064 0096 0 67 064 0000 1 64 064 0000 0 64 064 0000 1 62 064 0144 0 62 064 0000 1 60 064 0048 0 60 064 0000 1 59 064 0096 0 59 064 0000 1 62 064 0096 0 62 064 0000 1 62 064 0192 0 62 064 0000 1 59 064 0096 0 59 064 0000 1 62 064 0096 0 62 064 0000 1 62 064 0192 0 62 064 0000 1 71 064 0048 0 71 064 0000 1 71 064 0048 0 71 064 0000 1 71 064 0048 0 71 064 0000 1 71 064 0048 0 71 064 0000 1 71 064 0096 0 71 064 0000 1 69 064 0096 0 69 064 0000 1 67 064 0192 0 67 064
End

This program is worth the effort of learning it.

To download the March 10 MIDItext 98 software and get instructions on how to use it click here

ABC format:

X:1
T:Swan Necked Valve
M:4/4
Q:1/4=120
K:G
D8|B,2D2D2D2|B,2D2D2D2|G2B2A2G2|G6G2|B2A2A2G2|
B2A2A2A2|G2A2B2G2|E4D3C|B,2D2D4|B,2D2D4|BBBBB2A2|
G4||


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Swan Necked Valve
From: Wally Macnow
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 03:45 PM

The London, Ontario, singer Alistair Brown has it on his album appropriately entitled "The Swan Necked Valve"


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Subject: Lyr Add: SWAN NECKED VALVE (from Matt McGinn)
From: Art Thieme
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 04:19 PM

SWAN NECKED VALVE
from the singing of Matt McGinn

Whwn I was in the factory my time was nearly out,
What happened in the monkey shop I'll tell ya all about,

Rickie too dum day, too dum day,
Rickie tickie too dum day.

A hell of a job came and I left to solve,,
The problem of the makin' of a swan necked valve.

I looked at it and wondered where the parting I should make,
'Twas then I wished the boss would come and take it back.

But nothing came to help me and I had to make the delve,
I worked with trepidation on the swan necked valve.

Me mates all looked at me and said, "Ye never will evolve,
A system for the makin' of a swan necked valve."

I got a clamp full six feet long and stuck it down the side,
And in the absence of a pin--that was my only guide.

And though my knees were shaking I worked with grim resolve,
That clamp stood like a mast above the swan necked valve.

They sent my brother Sammy to help me close and cast,
And the very first stupid thing he did was carry away the mast.

So now I didn't have a guide--my head seemed to revolve,
But part by part, we closed by heart, the swan necked valve.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Swan Necked Valve
From: Art Thieme
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 04:25 PM

This was on an old ELEKTRA LP called "The Iron Muse"---industrial songs from Great Britain. I thought it was Lou Killen singing it, but maybe not...

Art


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE SWAN NECKED VALVE (MacColl, Seeger)
From: bigJ
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 04:27 PM

THE SWAN NECKED VALVE.

When Strathclyde was in Brigton and my time was nearly oot
What happened in the monkey shed I'll tell ye a' aboot.

Chorus.
Rickie doo dum da, doo dum da,
Rickie, tickie doo dum day.

A sneezer o' a job came in and I was left to solve
The problem of the makin' o' the swan-necked valve.

I looked at it and wondered where the pairtin I should mak'
And syne I prayed the gaffer he would come and tak' it back.

But nothing came to save me and I had to mak' a delve
I worked wi' trepidation on the swan-necked valve.

I took a double pairtin' wi' a tap and drag as well,
And every snug was aff the box - ye've seen that kind yersel'.

My mates a' looked at me and said - "Ye never will evolve
A system for the makin' o' the swn-necked valve."

I got a clamp fu' six feet long and stuck it doon the side,
And in the absence o' a pin, that was my only guide.

And tho' my knees were shakin', sure I worked wi' grim resolve,
That clamp stood like a mast aboon the swan-necked valve.

They sent my brither Sammy in to help me close and cast,
And syne the first thing that he did was ca' awa' the mast.

So noo I didna ha'e a guide; my heid seemed tae revolve,
As pairt by pairt we closed by guess, the swan-necked valve.
^^

From 'The Singing Island' by Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger. The notes to the song say: There are few iron-moulders in Britain who have not heard of Alex Russel of Dundee, the author of this song, for Russell is the undisputed bard of the iron-founding industry. An admirer and disciple of Robert Burns, Russell excercises his considerable gifts by recording in verse the day-to-day struggles of his fellow workers. The air is the one usually associated with The Keach in the Creel.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Swan Necked Valve
From: Wally Macnow
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 04:53 PM

Art,

It's not on "The Iron Muse", Topic 465. Good guess though. Killen singing it wouldn't surprise me a bit.

Wally


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Swan Necked Valve
From: bigJ
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 05:30 PM

Art/Wally,

It's probably not the recorded version that you're thinking of, but Ewan MacColl recorded the song on an old Topic 10" LP called 'Second Shift' released in 1958


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Swan Necked Valve
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 07:08 PM

Wally, maybe you have a different issue. It's on my copy of The Iron Muse all right, sung by Matt McGinn. Here are the notes:

[1956:] Foundries, shipyards and workshops are the hiding-places of many ballads and lyrical pieces not yet known in the wider world. Some that have come to light are so full of technical detail as to be barely comprehensible to people outside the trade. Such is the foundry-workers' song of the making of a swan-necked valve, an epic operation for an apprentice. Alex Russell, the bard of the Dundee iron foundries, wrote the text. The tune, borrowed from a ballad, 'The Keach In the Creel', was added later. (A. L. Lloyd, notes 'The Iron Muse')


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Swan Necked Valve
From: bigJ
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 08:13 PM

Hi Susanne,

You're right, it does appear on the Iron Muse LP, but I'm a bit intrigued by your 1956 date. I thought that Elektra had issued - in America - the recording which first appeared on the English Topic label, and according to the Topic discography at 'Musical Traditions' (see their web site), the English LP wasn't released until 1963 (Topic 12T86). Might it have been issued in the US in 1965?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Swan Necked Valve
From: Wally Macnow
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 10:08 PM

How odd! I have the CD (released in 1993) in front of me. The original was released in England on vinyl in 1956. This recording has 26 cuts on it by such as The High Level Ranters, Louis Killen, Ray Fisher, The Oldham Tinkers, Dick Gaughan and others but it doesn't have "The Swan Necked Valve" on it. How many tracks are on your Elektra release?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Swan Necked Valve
From: Art Thieme
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 10:16 PM

Dick Gaughan wan't around sining in '65. The CD sounds like a reworked package...

Art


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Swan Necked Valve
From: Wally Macnow
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 10:31 PM

Are you sure, Art? He's accompanied by Ali Anderson on one of the cuts on the CD.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Swan Necked Valve
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 10 Sep 99 - 06:18 PM

My album is a re-release of the 1956 (the year given) Topic album that I bought in the late 1970s, if I remember rightly. It has 21 tracks by Anne Briggs, Bob Davenport, Ray Fisher, Louis Killen, A. L. Lloyd, Matt McGinn and The Celebrated Working Man's Band (Alf Edwards on concertina, Colin Ross on fiddle and Jim Bran on double bass). That would indicate that Wally's CD has indeed been tinkered with.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Swan Necked Valve
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 10:10 AM

According to liner notes reproduced on this page, "There are few iron-moulders in Britain who have not heard of Alex Russel of Dundee". But apparently his fame has not spread beyond the trade. Can anyone provide biographical and/or bibliographical data about Alex Russell or Russel to supplement the few brief notes included with the Seeger/MacColl album "Second Shift" and A. L. Lloyd's compilation "The Iron Muse"?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Swan Necked Valve
From: Jim McLean
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 05:02 PM

Anne Briggs was 12 in 1956 and Matt McGinn wasn't heard of in the folk scene then. Also Ray Fisher started her recording career around 1960.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Swan Necked Valve
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 05:56 PM

The Iron Muse came out in 1963. The 1956 date is a popular misconception thoroughly trounced in other Iron Muse threads. Alex Russell anyone?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Swan Necked Valve
From: GUEST,Manatee Gordon
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 06:00 PM

Note the reference to "when Israel was in Egypt"- Paul Robeson?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Swan Necked Valve
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 11:27 AM

So you're suggesting that the phrase " When Strathclyde was in Brigton" echoes a similar phrase in the spiritual "Go Down Moses"? It seems possible.

In addition to information about Alex Russell, we also lsck glosses for the many obscure terms and references in this song. Does "Strathclyde was in Brigton" mean that many Glaswegian iron workers exiled themselves to Scotland's east coast to find jobs? I live half a world away so I don't have a clue.

I also register a big WTF? for such phrases as "monkey shed"; "double pairtin' wi' a tap and drag"; "every snug was aff the box"; "close and cast"; and even "swan necked valve".

Where I'm going with my query re Russell is this: do we know any more about him than we know about J. T. Huxtable, a man who apparently left no documentable trace but who was said by A. L. Lloyd to be his source for "The Recruited Collier". I'm wondering if Huxtable and Russell were room-mates at the Home For Retired Source Singers located just up the road from Kubla Khan's Pleasure Dome on High Brasil Road in the land of Cockayne. Probably not, but it's a question worth asking.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Swan Necked Valve
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 12:16 PM

"The Monkey Shed or Monkey Shop" was the area within a factory where the apprentices worked. To "close and cast" would be to complete the job - possibly to seal any joins?
Sorry about the other phrases, for all I know the song they appear to be perculiar to the trade.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Swan Necked Valve
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 11:37 AM

Calling all Dundee iron founders. Please tell me something or anything about your bard, Alex Russell, reputed admireer of Robbie Burns. But don't just paste liner notes from Topic Records because I've alrerady checked them out and they are not useful.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Swan Necked Valve
From: Kenny B
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 04:05 PM

Also Recorded By Alstair Brown on the CD the "Swan Necked Valve"


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Swan Necked Valve
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 01:09 PM

refresh


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Swan Necked Valve
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 01:48 AM

Cast - pour the metal

Close - the hand built wooden master shape is pressed into the special sand in the boxes. The the 'sprue runs' - the holes thru which the metal enters and air escape are set up in such a way that the mould will fill rapidly and evenly with no empty spaces. The two halves - in extremely rare special complex casting jobs, there may actually be more than two moulds (one for each side) - of the mould are then joined together to ensure that there will be no leaks when the casting takes place. The joining together is the 'close'.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Swan Necked Valve
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 02:00 AM

The 'master' is also called the pattern.

"double pairtin' wi' a tap and drag"

I think that might be 'double parting' - which might mean more than 2 pieces to the 'box' that holds the whole

Drag: The bottom half of the pattern

You tap the furnace to drain out the hot metal. A tap as in 'tap and die set' will cut a screw thread into an existing hole in metal, this might mean that the cast piece had to be tapped to make a screw thread in part of it.

I'm a 'Specializing Generalist' - know a little about a lot and a lot about a little.... mucked about with a little black and silver smithing...


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Swan Necked Valve
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 02:08 AM

Bench Mounted Three Way Swan Neck Valve

Useful reading on simple metal casting at at Melting and casting metal yourself


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Swan Necked Valve
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 10:34 PM

Good work, Foolestroupe. Thanks very much. May none of your snugs be off the box.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Swan Necked Valve
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 05:55 AM

Looking at the picture, you can see how complicated the song item is - the swan neck bit would likely be bent tube, and not cast into the whole thing.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Swan Necked Valve
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 08:43 AM

The picture apparently shows a valve for domestic use, in a kitchen or bathroom. If the valve were to be used in some industrial context, directing hundreds of gallons per minute into some vast reservoir, the curvey bit would be too large and tough to be bent and would have to be cast. I picture the "sneezer of a job" as being some kind of one-off part needed for a particular machine in, I dunno, a pulp and paper plant maybe.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Swan Necked Valve
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 03:03 AM

The point of the 'swan neck' is that it is meant for a 180 degree turn in the flow of the liquid - hence the name based on the visual image, and the neck swivels to direct the flow. Similar devices are used in scientific labs. The actual curvy bit for a much larger industrial item would probably still not be cast into the valve - if wanted it might be welded in, but usually there would be a removable join for maintenance (especially if any swiveling was needed) - plumbers name escapes me atm (uncle and his son are plumbers) of the style, where a collar is slipped over the tube, then the tube expanded and a compression seal is then made by screwing that collar in. Of course, it's impossible to 'expand' cast iron like that (it shatters easily), but you can do so with brass or copper...

I base this on the mere weight and awkwardness of transport (and possibility of damage in transport) of such a huge item cast in one ... :-)

If you have ever tried to cast a curved hollow tube (out of any material!) (let alone a 180 degree bend!), you know have the problem of getting the former (which needs to be sturdy enough to stay in place during the flow of hot metal) which makes the tubular hole inside, OUT after the job is finished! Of course you could use a 'lost wax' approach which is usually done with a plaster of paris or similar hardening liquid goop (this song seems to reflect the days before silicon moulding) poured around the complete wax image of the item to be cast, and then shattered away after casting, when the wax is melted out as the mould is cooked before filling with the hot metal, however then getting the solidified crap out of the inside of the 180 degree tube is a nightmare!, but then you wouldn't be going thru all the conniptions described, as you would be doing totally different processes, as the processes described relate to sandbox casting using a pattern (usually wood). (IMHO!) :-)

If you really needed to have a huge industrial curved hollow 180 degree tube, you would cast it in two mirror halves lengthwise and then strap or weld it together after both sides had been cast, or better and easier still cast it in 2 x 90 degree sections. It is educational to see how they build those huge cookingcooling (typo!!!) tubes for nuclear reactors...

I suspect the song is really based on a trade 'in joke' for tormenting apprentices with, like striped paint, left handed screwdrivers, or a long weight (wait)...

I cannot find a reference to a 'mast' in the context of the song. Of course if a real professional who KNOWS what they are talking about from experience were to explain, I'd believe... :-)

Oh yeah, I forgot about the pewter casting I also did with others (using a kitchen oven!), sorry ... :-) (JOATAMON!)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Swan Necked Valve
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 08:23 AM

Google Books finds this notice in The Foundry Trade Journal, Volume 104 (West Bromwich, England: Institute of Cast Metals Engineers, 1958), page 500:
"Mr. Alex Russell, who has been secretary of Dundee and district branch of the Foundry Workers' Union for 13 years, is to resign his post as a protest because his national executive did not officially back a 'save the foundries' campaign in Dundee. A few weeks ago he organized a campaign in an attempt to keep open three foundries which the engineering firm of Urquhart Lindsay and Robertson Orchar, Limited, had announced were closing. Despite meetings, demonstrations and...."
The Institute of Cast Metals Engineers (the publisher of the above journal) has a web site: http://www.icme.org.uk/


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Swan Necked Valve
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 09:43 PM

Brilliant sleuthing, Jim. Thanks.


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