BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 23 May 11 - 08:08 AM

Yep, we'll have them as well Al. Good call there.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 May 11 - 07:20 AM

LOL.

Perhaps the Danish ones would do me. I don't care as long as they are relatively harmless.

The thing I do not want is new vacancies for "ambitious" politicians (and perhaps their "business associates" too).

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Alan whittle
Date: 23 May 11 - 06:40 AM

' am English and proud of it. I would rather have a Royal family than not.'

When you say a royal family, does that mean any royal family. Not necessarily THE royal family. Would any royal family do?

the danish one is better looking - perhaps they would swap.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 11 - 04:20 AM

Malachi will no doubt be posting to complain about this loss of trade when Derry was closed down last week.

"There were numerous people walking past the glass-fronted building, and if we had not evacuated that building, we would have been looking at mass fatalities."

Mr Burrows said the alert meant that "effectively the whole city centre was closed down".

"We estimate there was hundreds of thousands of pounds of lost trade," he said."

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Stu
Date: 23 May 11 - 04:18 AM

"What exactly is it that you want to leave younger people. It's not your call anymore, neither is it mine."

No, it's all been fucked up by the oldies and now the youngsters can clear up the mess. I think you'll find they'll have lots more on their mind than dealing with a bunch of parasitic aristocrats.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 23 May 11 - 01:54 AM

Interesting website http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/usscotfax/society/scottish.html

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 23 May 11 - 01:44 AM

That was in 2008. So probably more now.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 23 May 11 - 01:43 AM

The number of Scottish people livig in England are 794,577

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 22 May 11 - 06:24 PM

"Do we send all Scottish people that take our jobs in England, back up to Scotland when that happens?"

The SNP's stance is that anyone legally living in Scotland at the time of independence would be offered citizenship, regardless of race, religion or place of birth, and if they didn't wish to take it then their rights of residence etc wouldn't be affected. I'm sure the rump UK would be no different. Besides percentage wise there are far more English born people in Scotland. 400,000 or so out of 5 million folk.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 May 11 - 05:41 PM

Deary me!

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 22 May 11 - 05:10 PM

Well I am not labour or conservative. they are all the same.

However, I do think that we should stop thrusting our long developed grudges on to other people (namely the young).

I am English and proud of it. I would rather have a Royal family than not.

I can see things going very wrong if Scotland breaks from England. However, if that's what they want, then good luck. Do we send all Scottish people that take our jobs in England, back up to Scotland when that happens?

Sometimes, I think hatred stops people thinking sensibly

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 May 11 - 04:57 PM

That's interesting, Arthur itus as I was speaking to a nephew who said just the same. He said the young people of Scotland will be the ones who decide the next parliament and they all are for independence. The older lot are Labour although there is also a big Republican movement in the Scottish Labour ranks. I don't know whether you saw the inaugeration of the Scottish MPs but a Labour member, when taking the obligatory oath of allegiance to the Crown, said he wanted to be a citizen, not a subject. I don't know if you're coming from an English point of view but Scotland is definitely going in a different direction. This is not to say, however, that you should not have your own point of view. Good luck.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 May 11 - 04:48 PM

===But isn't it a pity that those of us who want to see a republic instead of the present shambles can't enter into a democratic discussion without being accused of moaning.===

Fair enough, Fred; a reasoned debate. a 'democratic disucussion' as you put it, is just what we need. But don't forget we once fell out because I considered it not in the best of taste, or in the best interests of reasoned debate or 'democratic discussion', when you once led off a thread with the assertion that a news item about the Royal Family had immediately made you "want to throw up". A bit more reason would be perfectly welcome; but when you, & the others over on your side of the argument, habitually express yourselves in such immoderate terms, such isn't that easy to achieve. If that isn't 'moaning' what is? And that, I take it, is precisely the attitude and mode of expression to which Arthur is referring by his use of the term.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 22 May 11 - 04:08 PM

Sorry gents but I think it is now up to the younger generation to decide the future, not you or me. older peope may be wise at times, but they bear all the traits of being grumpy and biased.

My daughters who are 16 and 19 both like the Royal family and so do many younger people. Maybe you should listen to yourselves. What exactly is it that you want to leave younger people. It's not your call anymore, neither is it mine.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 May 11 - 03:46 PM

Fred, I think Arthur itus realised he had no reasonable answer to the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 22 May 11 - 11:07 AM

Arthur_itus; "Glad I don't have your ideals Fred"

Likewise. But isn't it a pity that those of us who want to see a republic instead of the present shambles can't enter into a democratic discussion without being accused of moaning.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 22 May 11 - 09:02 AM

'Enjoy the rest of your debating and moaning.'

Well we don't all have the emotional outlet afforded to Aston Villa fans for debating and moaning.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 22 May 11 - 08:14 AM

Glad I don't have your ideals Fred.

At this point I will stop discussing as I see little point. Not everybody has your dogmatic approach and isn't it strange that there are a very small group of people on Mudcat who just seem hell bent on getting rid of Royalty and the conservatives, just because they have such an ingrained attitude to anything that doesn't suit them.

Enjoy the rest of your debating and moaning.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 May 11 - 08:10 AM

I have no illusion about the amount of people who support the royal family. My last point was about democracy. The present system makes it impossible to be a republican MP. If an MP has republican sympathies he/she has to take the oath of allegiance with some stupid show of disagreement like crossing one's fingers when taking the oath.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 22 May 11 - 08:09 AM

Let me see. Have I got this right? If we stick with the monarchy we have no say over who will replace the present incumbent. Irrespective of whether that person is capable of doing the job, or turns out to be the biggest buffoon on earth, we just have to suffer them? And that's good?

On the other hand, we could go for a president, democratically elected by the will of the majority, to serve for a fixed term. Under this arangement the president's tenure would be democratically reviewed by the people at the end of this period and he/she kicked out if they weren't up to the job. And that's bad? Jeez! What a topsy turvy world we live in.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 22 May 11 - 07:26 AM

Obviously you don't think so Jim. However there are more people that support the Royal Family than you seem to think.

I am quite happy to leave things as they are. We have so many buffoons from all parties trying to run our country. Wouldn't trust any of them.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 May 11 - 07:21 AM

Well Arthu itis, a president has to be elected on his or her merits unlike royalty. As someone said would you go to a heredity dentist? It is impossible for someone to stand om a Repulican ticket in the UK as, if elected by thousands of people, they cannot take office without swearing allegiance to the current monarch or all of his/hers offspring. Do we have a democracy or not?

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 22 May 11 - 07:19 AM

Caitlin Rua. If Bonzo 3 Legs stopped criticising what he doesn't understand, I doubt if he'd be left with very much to say about anything.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 22 May 11 - 07:03 AM

Well its done now anyway. As you say - what i know about ireland , you could write on a postage stamp.

Let's hope you are right and its one of the signals to a more happy and peaceful future.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: caitlin rua
Date: 22 May 11 - 06:21 AM

@Bonzo3legs:

In the immortal words of the Bard:

Don't criticise what you can't understand

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 22 May 11 - 05:51 AM

A good result of this visit destroys the argument that a future head of state (of the UK) cannot be a president and that monarchy is the best bet.

I'm no fan of the royal family but I'd think say president Maggie Thatcher or president Tony Blair worse...

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 22 May 11 - 05:39 AM

Elections are no guarantee of anything. How do you think we got lumbered with Bertie and his pals? At least royalty's powers are limited these days.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 22 May 11 - 05:33 AM

Can't agree with you there Jim.

She might be great, but who's to say what the next person might be like. Could be an evil git. I think I would prefer to stay the way things are here in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 May 11 - 05:02 AM

A good result of this visit destroys the argument that a future head of state (of the UK) cannot be a president and that monarchy is the best bet. Mary McAleese was supberb and handled every situation with great aplomb and dignity .. and she was elected.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 22 May 11 - 04:58 AM

Nice post Caitlin. As I have said on previous posts, may you all see an everlasting peace. You so deserve it.

Not very often I disgree with my very good freind Al, but most of these attrocities were done well before we were born and there is nothing we can do about it. What we can do, is make sure it doesn't happen again and move forward in a feindly way.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: caitlin rua
Date: 22 May 11 - 03:02 AM

Alan, how much time have you actually spent in Ireland? More to the point, how recently and for how long? You just seem out of touch. Things aren't the same here anymore. It's not just a case of a few Mudcat people being 'nice'.

Yes of COURSE there is still resentment in some quarters, that's too obvious to even need stating. But a lot of times it's the outsiders who are seeking to cling to all the past anger. People here have new angers. And most of us are moving on. Yes, plenty are still anti-British and wouldn't welcome the Queen. But they tend to be the older population, which is dying out. And mostly they just talk and grumble. They know same as the rest of us that there's nothing realistic they can do, because the time for doing it is past and gone. The overall public reaction to her visit tells the story, even if you don't seem to want to recognise it. The proof lies in the fact that the "positive incitement" you spoke of didn't incite much. And please remember, it was our president's idea to invited her. What signal do you think refusing would have sent?

The whole Celtic Tiger thing changed Ireland forever, and that includes influencing people's political thinking. Now we have been betrayed by someone much closer to home and the old resentments and losses have been outweighed by new ones. (Note, I didn't say 'replaced by'.) But you can only handle so much emotional energy. It's a no-brainer as to which is going to come first, dealing with current and unfinished issues which are affecting us and our children's lives now, or old ones which are over & done with, that we can do nothing about.

What is this going to represent to Irish republicans? That most of the citizens of this country, even those of us who would like to see a 32-county Ireland, want to move forward in the most positive and realistic - and humane - way.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 21 May 11 - 08:05 PM

so the tour went with a bang, as predicted.

That's why i think it was a rubbish idea. people are pretty nice on mudcat - but even here the resentment of the English and their part in the history of Ireland is often apparent.

So what is the symbolic embodiment of English History and the lady who was head of the British Empire going to represent to Irish republicans?

To many the visit was bound to be bloody annoying and to others a positive incitement to anger. I think it was insensitive.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 21 May 11 - 04:46 PM

A bomb did go off in Derry a few hours ago, in a busy shopping area on a Saturday afternoon when crowds of people were there. Fortunately, someone had phoned in a warning so they evacuated the building(s) and no one was hurt. Without that prior alert, I don't like to think what the casualty rate could have been, what permanent injuries and mutilations.

I haven't researched it, but it's hard not to think that this is a gesture seeking to make some statement about the Queen's visit. Not just that she was in the Republic, at the invitation of the President, but that the whole undertaking has been a success. The attempted bombing was reported to have been carried out by "dissident republicans opposed to the peace process". Not the British per se. The peace process itself.

The memory of the past does need to be kept alive. But the hatreds do not. One is not the same thing as the other. Only for a stroke of luck, more innocent blood would have been splattered today because of those who cannot tell the difference between the two. Now: without cheating and looking it up on Google, who can tell which of these speakers is the DUP First Minister and which is the Sinn Féin First Minister (one of them calls it Derry and the other Londonderry, a dead giveaway, so I have changed both names to Derry):   

The perpetrators of this disgusting attack have no regard for human life. The people of Derry and of Northern Ireland have made it clear in our recent elections that they have no wish to return to the dark days of the past. There is no support for those who wish to destroy and divide us with this type of evil and callous attack. They will not succeed.

- - -

Those who carried out the attack had no mandate. Those who carried it out need to realise that such an attack only hardens our resolve to ensure that peace survives and continues to flourish. The people of Derry have worked hard to build a city that is peaceful and inclusive. Their hard work will not be undone by today's mindless act.


See what I mean? They could be interchangeable. What does that tell you?

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 21 May 11 - 10:15 AM

Bonzo3legs. The Irish are always moaning about something!!

Yeah. Usually about all the people who are moaning about them.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 May 11 - 08:45 AM

The Irish are always moaning about something!!

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: michaelr
Date: 20 May 11 - 05:16 PM

Union flags in rebel Cork? The shame of it!

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 20 May 11 - 02:12 PM

"Like it or hate it, the fact this royal visit can take place at all tells you something about the progress that's been made in relations between the two nations. The current state of affairs is an improvement on the past one, and people's attitudes by and large reflect this. The only way the present is going to be better than the past is if people LET IT. "

Well said Bonnie. I hope for everybodies sake that things will move forward in a peaceful manner for everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 20 May 11 - 12:55 PM

'This is the biggest security operation in the entire history of the State, involving the armed forces as well as the gardai'

It probably was, given it lasted four days and there was quite an itinerary involved. Clare remembers what happened when George W. came to Dromoland a few years ago.

It's not unusual to go to extreme measures during these visits.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 20 May 11 - 11:42 AM

Eh... "empty streets".   I know very well they were closed off for security reasons; there have been complaints from Dublin shopkeepers on RTE about how much trade they'll have lost as a consequence. There were also rumours - not denied, as far as I'm aware - that armed British agents were also at hand (not unprecedented in Dublin...). While I wouldn't turn on my heel to see the Queen if she were at the end of the street, people can wave their wee flags if they want to, it's a harmless enough amusement. And, as Brendan Behan said, there are those in Ireland who would eat cooked Kenyan if they thought the Quality in England were doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 20 May 11 - 10:58 AM

The streets are indeed closed, even to pedestrians. We've been notified about this repeatedly, well in advance. I walked through the city centre last night from the music school I teach in (on one of the south quays) to the north of the river where I had a lift waiting. Even though the streets weren't yet blocked off (except that you were not allowed to park anywhere) it was like the Marie Celeste! Everybody thought there would be massive traffic congestion so they all just avoided the city centre - including my lift, who usually picks me up at school, which is how I came to be walking through town.

You really can't judge things by photos showing the streets: there are a lot of restricted access rules in place. This is the biggest security operation in the entire history of the State, involving the armed forces as well as the gardai. I've just had a harp student leave my house in east County Cork (I'm teaching privately at home today) who travelled up from the city, and she said everything was "grand". (Mind you, they had to come around the ring road, the only open through route, which avoids the centre. But they do live there.)

Like it or hate it, the fact this royal visit can take place at all tells you something about the progress that's been made in relations between the two nations. The current state of affairs is an improvement on the past one, and people's attitudes by and large reflect this. The only way the present is going to be better than the past is if people LET IT.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: harmonic miner
Date: 20 May 11 - 09:37 AM

"...that motorcade making its way through empty streets;..."

Eh... the streets are empty because they are closed.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Seayaker
Date: 20 May 11 - 09:23 AM

The lunchtime news showed welcoming crowds in Cork with a few union flags even, and people interveiwed thought it was a positive step forward. No crowds of protesters (and I'm sure they would have been shown as they make good television)

A very small minority of people are so emeshed in the past that they don't want to move on. That was then, this is now.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 20 May 11 - 03:52 AM

She's coming to Cork today. Lots of security operations in place, gardai everywhere, but no particular heavy vibes floating around that I've picked up on - though of course you only see whatever you happen to see, so obviously I can't speak for the whole city. But it feels calm enough and nobody that I've spoken to is complaining or protesting. Times are moving on and folks here have other pressing concerns to deal with.

I think she's due to arrive in a few hours. I was in town yesterday, will be in town again tomorrow, but am out in the farmhouse today so will miss it.

One of my ex-students played harp for her at the first official state dinner in Dublin. Why don't I get gigs like that? Think of all that free food...

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 May 11 - 09:40 PM

Well, at least the Queen had a day off so she could see some fancy race horses. I understand she's more fond of horses than members of her own family. Can't say that I blame her.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Lox
Date: 19 May 11 - 09:09 PM

"You three, McG, Lox, Malachy, want us to believe the visit is not so popular.
Why can you find no evidence for that? "



eh?

What are you on about Keith?


Can you provide evidence of me wanting anyone to believe anything?


You have a vivid imagination or was it just a hallucination.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 19 May 11 - 11:58 AM

I `ad that Paddy O` Reilly in my cab the other day. `e was really into one. `is face was the colour of beetroot, just as if someone `ad nicked all the shamrock.
I said, "What`s up, Pat? You lost your shinty stick or something?".
`e said, " Nah, Jim. It`s your blooming Queen, begorrah. There she is, traipsing around Erin, up to `er neck with privilege and without a thought for all us who have suffered 800 years of tyranny".
I said, "You`re `aving a laugh, Pat. You`ve lived over `ere all your life, raised a family and the only time you shout "Come on Ireland" is at the Six Nations Rugby. If Brenda and `er mob are not to your liking, why are you still `ere".
`e said, "Jim, `ave you seen the state of their economy??".

Whaddam I Like??

Using multiple identities is not permitted. This post was done by John from Elsie's Band, also known as John from Emding. You may use one ID only.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 19 May 11 - 10:09 AM

A very telling image, that motorcade making its way through empty streets; the contrast between this and the enthusiasm with which President O'Bama will soon be greeted should put the British Monarchy in its place. There's something deeply distasteful in holding a Banquet for people who have known nothing but privilege whilst there are many among the population at large who struggle to make ends meet, even to keep a roof over their heads and those of their children. No doubt Ireland has to play its part in this international game, but I can't help wishing the ould Queen had been served up a plate of potatoes, in their jackets, with a wee pile of salt in the middle of a plain deal board. Scrubbed clean, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Seayaker
Date: 19 May 11 - 08:50 AM

There's a rumour that she has bought a bodrhan and is heading for Bannerboy's session

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 May 11 - 05:28 AM

"So the Irish Times has used its vox pops to suggest the exact opposite of the real situation?

I don't think you read my post saying "...I suspect that an opinion poll on this would in fact indicate that quite a high proportion of people in Ireland feel at ease about the Queen's visit," Keith.

My point was that vox pops should not be treated as if they were opinion polls, not that the Irish Times were faking them. Of course some tabloids sometimes do just that, which is one reason why it's right to emphasize the distinction I made there.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 11 - 05:02 AM

Croke Park was not open to the public when the Queen toured the stadium