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Camsco Music - why we post

Wally Macnow 09 Sep 99 - 02:43 PM
Joe Offer 09 Sep 99 - 04:39 PM
Wally Macnow 09 Sep 99 - 05:03 PM
katlaughing 09 Sep 99 - 05:06 PM
Joe Offer 09 Sep 99 - 05:16 PM
Big Mick 09 Sep 99 - 05:22 PM
Jack (who is called Jack) 09 Sep 99 - 05:33 PM
Bert 09 Sep 99 - 05:43 PM
Wally Macnow 09 Sep 99 - 05:55 PM
Joe Offer 09 Sep 99 - 06:07 PM
Jack (who is called Jack) 09 Sep 99 - 06:10 PM
Jeri 09 Sep 99 - 06:18 PM
Big Mick 09 Sep 99 - 06:21 PM
Sandy Paton 09 Sep 99 - 07:21 PM
katlaughing 09 Sep 99 - 07:38 PM
Bill D 09 Sep 99 - 08:47 PM
Barry Finn 09 Sep 99 - 09:50 PM
Wally Macnow 09 Sep 99 - 10:02 PM
catspaw49 09 Sep 99 - 10:18 PM
Jeri 09 Sep 99 - 10:31 PM
Wally Macnow 09 Sep 99 - 10:57 PM
catspaw49 09 Sep 99 - 11:19 PM
katlaughing 09 Sep 99 - 11:25 PM
Wally Macnow 09 Sep 99 - 11:32 PM
Big Mick 09 Sep 99 - 11:59 PM
Wally Macnow 10 Sep 99 - 01:10 PM
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Subject: Camsco Music - why we post
From: Wally Macnow
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 02:43 PM

There have been a number of threads referencing and criticizing some commercialization at the Mudcat. I thought I would post a little bit here about Camsco Music, why I started it, why I post new catalog additions here at the Mudcat and perhaps a little bit about me. Not necessarily in that order.

Actually, I'll start with me. I'm a dyed-in-the wool traditional music fan, singer, sometime performer and occasional researcher. I am now and have been very involved in promoting and preserving folk music activities at Pinewoods Folk Music Club in New York City, the Folklore Society of Greater Washington, the Baltimore Folk Music Society, the National Folk Festival, The American Folklife Center, the Champlain Valley Festival, the Country Dance and Song Society, NEFFA, and more.

I started Camsco Music in 1995 to help promote the proliferation of traditional music - that was the sole goal. I put up notices of new additions to my catalog because I want people to know where they can find songs that they may be looking for and, because people buy these recordings to learn songs from, to help spread and preserve this music. I don't think this music should die. I don't know if I'm helping to keep it alive, there are lots of academic disputes about whether the music should be preserved at all, but I feel very strongly that I have to try.

Many of the Mudcatters are here for the same reason. By talking to one another and sharing information, whether it be about lyrics, tunes, chords, history, or recordings, we are helping the music that we love to survive and, I hope, to thrive. When I was approached by the DT about being part of it and establishing a mutually beneficial arrangement, I embraced the proposal. I'm glad to be able to support the Mudcat and to be able to spread the news about traditional music recordings.

If this all sounds too noble, it is. I don't believe I can stay in business without your support. I believe that what I'm doing is helpful to people and that it doesn't hurt anyone here when I post recording availability. I know you will feel free to bypass my listings if they don't interest you.

Thank you for your attention,
Wally Macnow
Camsco Music


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Subject: RE: Camsco Music - why we post
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 04:39 PM

Hi, Wally - I think it's also important for us to realize that very little profit is made by Camsco and Folk-Legacy and many of the other small companies who provide folk recordings. You guys do it because you love the music. Nonetheless, I think it's important that at Mudcat, our priority is the music, not the selling of the music. The Camsco logo that was at the top of the Forum Menu page seemed to me just a bit too obvious. It's good to sell the music and support the musicians, but it does need to be done with some subtlety and finesse.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Camsco Music - why we post
From: Wally Macnow
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 05:03 PM

Joe,

I know Max was trying to be helpful when he put it there. Sometimes we all use too big a club and cause a stir. But it's not the end of the world. I don't think anyone was hurt by it.


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Subject: RE: Camsco Music - why we post
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 05:06 PM

Wally, I don't have any problem at all with your reminder threads or logo showing up now and then. I've noticed everything seems to be on a rotation basis for when it shows up and I think that is fine.

The only thing I don't like to see is what apparently happened with a new cd and what seemed to be an arbitrary decision without Sandy's input. He has my utmost respect and support, so I am sensitive to what happens here concerning him and I pay attention when he has something to say.

That said, I would also like to say I have really enjoyed your postings, too, and am very pleased that you are a part of the Mudcat.

Joe, as for keeping it just music and less the selling end: Max has made it quite clear and rightly so, that without monetary support, the Mudcat couldn't exist for anything at all, let alone just music. I think, so far, what he, Sandy, & Wally have done is mild and warranted.

Respectfully,

Katlaughing


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Subject: RE: Camsco Music - why we post
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 05:16 PM

Well, yes, Kat, but even from a marketing point of view, this is a market that demands subtlety and finesse. Despite what Madison Avenue says, I believe that subtlety sells.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Camsco Music - why we post
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 05:22 PM

Yeah Wally, that is all fine. But I think I would feel better about Camsco if I saw some of the same grace that Sandy uses. I am sorry to offend, I really don't want cause a stir. But I must point out to you, sir, that I have noted on several occasions that Sandy has posted praise for you, or tried to assist you. Once he even made a suggestion with regard to Frank's new CD that would have benefitted you more than him. Not once have I seen a "thanks" back or even a reply with the exception of one which I deemed to be made in a snide fashion. I think the reason that Sandy is so well recieved here is that he came and he contributed mightily and never tried to take advantage. Even though he was urged to by many of us. Most of us view this gentleman as full of grace and one of the cornerstones of the folk revival. Because of your business relationship with the Mudcat Cafe, we would like to hold you in good regard as well. But for myself, I am going to have to see a bit more in the way of contributing, as well as the attempts to promote the label.

I know that these comments will seem harsh to some, and I apologize for discomfort caused by them. I do not know Wally MacNow personally, and I am sure he is a lovely person. I have no reason to doubt his credentials either. My comments are made strictly on what I have seen here. I also do not understand why Camsco would get any kind of preference over Folk Legacy. My support for the 'Cat and what it has become is well known. My gratitude to Max is undying. But I have become a bit uncomfortable with what I perceive to be occurring.

All the best,

Big Mick


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Subject: RE: Camsco Music - why we post
From: Jack (who is called Jack)
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 05:33 PM

Wally,

If I ran the circus, you WOULD make a good living doing what you are doing. I believe in making a good profit for a good product (I've bought your products and am here to tell you they are good!). And I have no problem with your advertising openly on Mudcat, nor would I have a problem with you tooting your companies horn a little louder than you do here. In fact, I think more advertising by other companies that sell traditional music would be a good idea, as might other efforts for Mudcat to generate revenue. It would be a GOOD THING if there was enough money to PAY Max and Dick and Susan et al. for what might be one of the single best efforts at preservation since Lomax. And by the way, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't musicology Lomax's JOB--what he did for a living?

There always seems to be a negative attitude towards any incorporation of economic concerns or activities into the efforts to preserve and promote folk and traditional music. There is a far too developed slippery slope fear that the minute anyone cares even a little about making the smallest amount of money, that it might as well be the Home Shopping Network.

There also seems to be a mistaken mythology that just because some of what we call folk and traditional music evolved as a part of everyday life instead of as saleable entertainment (e.g. work songs, songs sung around the fire after work was done, sea shanties, etc), that all of traditional music is like that and will be tainted by contact with economic concerns or activities. This is not even remotely the case. Robert Johnson did not write his songs and perform them with no thought of profit. Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee did not play for free. O'Carolan played his harp not out of nobility, but out of a desire for coins with which to buy his bread.

Yea, I know, its a diatribe, but dag-nabbit, I believe in the honor of getting paid for ones work, especially if its hard work, good work, and work that takes a lot of time and effort. Money is a good thing, just ask those who don't have any.


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Subject: RE: Camsco Music - why we post
From: Bert
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 05:43 PM

Personally I have not had any problems with the postings. ('cept that I can't afford to buy anything right now)

But really it is up to Max. If anyone has any questions about posting ANYTHING, they could always check with Max first, to see if it's OK.

Bert.


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Subject: RE: Camsco Music - why we post
From: Wally Macnow
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 05:55 PM

Big Mick,

I've known Sandy Paton for a very long time and have always had the highest regard for him and consider him a friend. I place the highest honor and acknowledgement that I can on his contributions to folk music so don't mistake anything that I've said as in any way derogatory, contemptuous or snide. I have never and would never say anything nasty about Sandy. He and Caroline and Rob have been of great help to me in my endeavors.

As to my contributions to the Mudcat, I contribute where I feel I have something to add. There are so many knowledgable people here (and fast too) that often what I have to say would add little or nothing to what's already been said. So, I don't say it.


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Subject: RE: Camsco Music - why we post
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 06:07 PM

Well, I think we ought to be careful here and not hurt any feelings. Folk-Legacy and Camsco both provide a remarkable service, and we should be grateful to both for running businesses the way businesses should be run. I have to say that I was absolutely floored by Folk-Legacy's style of marketing. The first time I called in an order was before Sandy became active here. Caroline Paton talked with me for half an hour, and actually told me NOT to buy a couple of CD's because she didn't think I'd like them. It's an absolute thrill to place an order at Folk-Legacy, and it's not fair to expect Wally to duplicate the charm of the two Patons. Why, even Big Mick isn't THAT charming (grin).
On the other hand, Wally's Camsco Music has a catalog that is quite different from the music at Folk-Legacy, and the site is interesting and easy to navigate. Between the two sites, it's a folk music heaven. Thanks to both Wally Macnow and the Patons for doing such a wonderful job.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Camsco Music - why we post
From: Jack (who is called Jack)
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 06:10 PM

Just one more thing, then I'll stop.

I did a search of Wally MacNow's postings. I counted on one hand the number of threads he created that were specifically devoted to his catalog within the last six months. They were pretty clearly labeled as to what they were too. No deception to get you to click on like the SPAM we all receive, just an announcment, 'Hey, we got new stuff if your interested."

Now Max knows the stats better than I do, but I am pretty confident that Wally's compercial postings represent in volume a nearly infinitesimal fraction of the posts on the forum. Add that to the logo and you have the sum total of Camsco's 'encroachment', and yet the complaint is that its unsubtle? Any more subtle would be practically subliminal.


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Subject: RE: Camsco Music - why we post
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 06:18 PM

Mick, I've met both Sandy and Wally and they're both great people. I should hope that the thing that happened with Frank's CD has been resolved by e-mail, but if I wanted to get upset with someone without knowing the whole story, it wouldn't be Wally.


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Subject: RE: Camsco Music - why we post
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 06:21 PM

Jack, my comments were not directed at the running of business. Do a search on my name and you will get a good view of my opinion on this. They were a response to Kat's comments. And what I see in the threads. Not what Wally said, but what he hasn't said, up until now. And I appreciate his recent posting about the Paton's. Read it again and you will understand. There is a difference between supporting our village through commerce ( I strongly support this) and not approving of what appeared to me to be a disregard for another 'Catter. They were a response to the opening comment, and the follow ups. I have said my piece, and will say no more. Let the comments stand the test of Mudcat scrutiny.


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Subject: RE: Camsco Music - why we post
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 07:21 PM

Friends, let's not add to the confusion. It's not all that complicated. Wally got an order in to Harvey before I did, and that led Harvey to believe that Wally would be the one to carry it, and he so indicated that to Max. The fact that I had not yet placed an order for Frank's CD was my fault, not Wally's. Let's forget the event altogether.

I buy stuff from Wally. He carries, year 'round, stuff that I order from the various labels only to offer at our Folk-Legacy booths during the summer festival season. At NEFFA last year, I got from Wally the two wonderful Yazoo CDs of the Music of Kentucky, the first volume of which has three songs by Alfred Karnes, a great traditional artist. I remember drawing Rick Fielding's attention to Karnes "Call to the Foreign Field" and being delighted to find that Rick admired the performance as much as I did. If I had the capital could expand my web site to include all of the labels Wally handles, I would do it and be justifiably proud of the inclusions.

I don't produce enough new releases every year to make the kind of regular "What's New" announcements that Wally is able to post. I don't want you to interpret what I object to as "blatant commercialization" as an objection to the quite simple descriptions of what's new at Camsco that Wally has been posting. We all get unsolicited hustles via our e-mail addresses. I get several every day (Want to make a gazillion bucks a month forwarding spam to our unlimited lists?, etc.) We can delete them quite easily, and I do. If someone doesn't want to read Wally's "Waht's New" columns, they are not required to do so. I do read them. In fact, right now Caroline wants to get a Carthy/Waterson CD from Wally that has an English hymn that seems to be related to the "I Bid You Goodnight" from the Bahamas that we all love. We'll need Wally's knowledge to lead us to the right one.

Let's keep the Mudcat Forum free of posters, gimmicks, ads and other examples "blatant commercialism." Let's let our community ban billboards, if we all choose to do so. Let's talk among ourselves as friends and neighbors with a common interest. We're here because we all love folk music, regardless of our various definitions of the term. As Rodney King put it: "Can't we all get along?"

Sandy


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Subject: RE: Camsco Music - why we post
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 07:38 PM

You have my undying admiration, support, and gratitude, as ever, Sandy, for being such a gentleman, scholar, and guiding light! (I know that sounds trite, but it is TRUE!)

Mick....were you pickin' on ME???!!!**BG** 'Cause ya know I back you ALL THE WAY!! BTW, what is it an Irish man under full sail wields? (Ya know it's the Irish woman who has the iron skillet!)

Sandy, I understand about the CD of the month club, so...I'll just call once per month and like Joe, enjoy the heck out of talking to Caroline, even though my tongue in cheek lusty heart belongs to you!

katlaughing


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Subject: RE: Camsco Music - why we post
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 08:47 PM

put simply....Wally & Sandy are both real folkies...musicians, singers and collectors...they have businesses that are a bit different, and know each other, and respect each other...they have BOTH answered musical question in here and helped others. Sandy is more of a 'chatter', and gets more involved in the daily sillyness..*grin*....I know both of them, like them, and have seen NO undue commercial bother...these are folk that really help us find the music we want...as long as Max says they are welcome here, we should not nit -pick about the nuances....

end of sermon....


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Subject: RE: Camsco Music - why we post
From: Barry Finn
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 09:50 PM

Hi Wally & Hi Sandy. I believe Wally has come back from the ashes & I was heartbroken to see that on his last go round he almost went belly up. I've met both Wally & Sandy & Caroline at various festivals over the years & it seems when they're selling side by side (like at NEFFA as Sandy mentioned) that it's really a family affair. I don't really give a hoot (boy is that dating myself) how you 2 & Max manage to sell your music as long as we can support you the way you've supported our love of music. It's not a decent living, if it were there'd be more in it & for the money not for love. As it is you give a cut of what you sell to help Mudcat & I can't imagine after all that's said & done you get to take home enough to suvive on. There are many small & family run operations & they're usually run on lots of love & not much else so when you have a chance to support your local folks please help to keep them going it helps us all. It seems that a good number of you here know Sandy & Caroline one way or another & you couldn't get a finer set doing what they do on the other hand Wally hasn't been in the trade (but has been involved) nearly as long so he may lack some recognition so again you couldn't meet a finer gent & when you meet these two business giants you'll understand why they're so well liked in the circles that they affect. Thanks to you both for sharing your love of music & your music life with us. Barry


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Subject: RE: Camsco Music - why we post
From: Wally Macnow
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 10:02 PM

I have to tell you that I just read Sandy's note and Barry Finn's note and reread some of the other postings to this thread and I am moved to tears by the kindness and consideration of the writers.


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Subject: RE: Camsco Music - why we post
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 10:18 PM

Geez Wally, I hate to see anybody crying, but it's real popular around here. Let me try to help out.

"Well fockin' A here Macnow, ya know I've fockin' had it with your constant line of crap and all that gawddamn self promotion and money hungry fockin' bulllshit you keep trying to pass off as fockin' updates.....Updates my ass, ya motherfocker, I got yer fockin' updates right here, yuh fockin' scumbag. So cut the shit and stop the fockin' cryin' like a gawddam douchebag before I kick yer fockin' ass so bad you'll have to take yer fockin' hat off to shit ya pissant motherfocker."

There you go Wally...Feeling better now??? Glad to help out.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Camsco Music - why we post
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 10:31 PM

Gosh Wally, he likes you. He really likes you!


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Subject: RE: Camsco Music - why we post
From: Wally Macnow
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 10:57 PM

Catspaw49, I don't know who you are as you hide behind your alias but you among the most clever of fellows. Your use of language rivals that of Noel Coward.


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Subject: RE: Camsco Music - why we post
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 11:19 PM

Well I thank you Wally. Sorry, but folkwise, I'm just another picker and hammerer, but sometimes I forget that some people weren't around the 'Cat last May when it seems that EVERYBODY new EVERYTHING about me. If you really want to see the depth of love, care, compassion, friendship, and unity this group is capable of, go to THIS THREAD and start reading. There are over 500 posts in linked threads, but it's worth the time to scan through them and read a few. You won't believe it and it's the BEST overview of what the Mudcat is that could possibly be written.

Spaw--Pat Patterson


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Subject: RE: Camsco Music - why we post
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 11:25 PM

Wally, just don't refresh that thread, please! There's a LOT of us who would be near heart failure if we tuned into the Mudcat and saw anything about 'Spaw not being up to snuff or tahbackie, or other vices:-)


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Subject: RE: Camsco Music - why we post
From: Wally Macnow
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 11:32 PM

Spaw,

I wish I'd read it before I replied but this is a large community and I don't know so many of the people. It's sometimes hard to immediately know who's serious about what.

Hope all is well with you.


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Subject: RE: Camsco Music - why we post
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 11:59 PM

Nuff said, support the 'Cat by buying from our vendors........and Sandy Paton's grace shows through again. Wally, I hope to see more of your knowledge shared with us. And perhaps we can get to know one another at the FSGW getaway.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: Camsco Music - why we post
From: Wally Macnow
Date: 10 Sep 99 - 01:10 PM

Sorry, Mick, I won't be there this fall. I'll be in England causing trouble. Maybe next year.


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