Music in Co Clare

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 01:04 PM

My experience of tourists has been very good,99 percent sit quietly appreciate the music and clap.
I have only had one bad experience, this was a person who played along with random notes on a harmonica , I was forced to ask him to desist.
The vast majority of irish people are very friendly,and welcoming to other musicians, as are the musicians.
when i lived in Suffolk,I got to know John and Julia Clifford, they were very friendly, and encouraged me to play traditional irish music,AND were happy to play tunes with most people, Julia ADVISED me that I should stick to playing irish trad on my concertina rather thanpeices like woodland flowers.
in my experence older traditional musicians did not have the precious attitude that is now becoming prevalent, neither did they have the competitive attitude that seems to be a recent phenomenon, possibly a result of Comhaltas Competitions.
are the attitudes of certain posters on this thread typical, I think not, most of the unwelcoming on this thread are not even irish

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: GUEST,confused
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 02:44 PM

I've just been reading through this thread and am at a complete loss to understand what on earth the original poster has done to attract the comments.

I do see that there may on occasions be people who don't understand how to behave as is deemed appropriate in a music session, folk clubs or wherever. What puzzles me is why this has turned into an attack on a group of people who seem to just want to go somewhere during their holiday, where they can listen to some music, and possibly, when asked and if appropriate, either play or sing themselves. Nowehere in their question was there the inference that they intended to take over an event, ignore the feelings of other people or cause any unpleasantness.

Neither do I understand the presumption that some individuals have made that this collection of people (who by my understanding from reading this thread thoroughly are most certainly not a "band" as some people have assumed, but 5 individuals who each either play/sing or both, accompanied by 5 other friends)would be the sort of people who would either talk loudly while others played, join in inappropriately or commandeer seats which were being saved for others, to say nothing of the rather more ascerbic comments that have been made of their presumed behaviour.

Surely it is not too much to ask that if the original poster is known by some people this forum, as someone who does know what is acceptable behaviour and also known as a performer should be treated with a little more respect and not automatically assumed to be some sort of demon?

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 03:06 PM

very good points, confused.
at what time has their been any suggestion that RAGGYTASH AND HIS FRIENDS, wished to take over., they wish to share music and listen to other people
however, I am not surprised, as two of the antagonistic posters, are people who i have encountered elsewhere as being extremely precious about ITM.
to paraphrase Martin Carthy, the only harm you can do to a song is not t sing it, the only harm you can do the music is not to play it.music is not a competition about playing the correct twiddle, it is about sharing, interacting and breaking down barriers., it is about being inclusive not exclusive.

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 03:32 PM

The original poster made a polite request and recieved a number of polite and helpful replies.
He then said he would be coming with in group of ten - all of whom either sang or played, and he continued to receive friendly advice which included pointing out the problems arising from travelling in such numbers and expecting to be able to perform.
Things began to get out of hand with the McNally article which also pointed out the pitfalls of large numbers travelling and expecting a ready made platform.
Things began to polarise from there on - including the op threatening to take his ball home.
There ARE problems travelling with that number of would-be performers; I doubt if those problems wouldn't apply anywhere in these islands, and failing to recognise or even acknowledge that fact isn't going to make them go away.
Having been told that I have no say in the matter as I'm not native Irish, I then asked if we are making up these problems, and if we are not, how we should respond to them - I have yet to receive a reply - though it has been indicated to me that we should adapt some unknown folk session's practice of throwing our venues open to all, no matter what we happen to be doing when wannabe performers turn up.
Clare is an unbelievably friendly and hospitable county - it's why we first started to visit it 40 years ago, and why we chose it as our permanent home. I doubt if anybody could name a single pub in the county where visitors would not be welcome, as customers or as new and interesting faces.
All we/I ask in return is that visitors/performers be aware of what is happening in the places they visit, respect those activities and try to accommodate them; if you do, your courtesy and sensitivity will be recognised and returned a thousandfold - if you find this too much to ask, perhaps you would be happier elsewhere.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 04:03 PM

A few personal opinions, based on the sessions I've been to in Co.Clare :
1 - no session ever needs 3 guitars playing at the same time. Assuming the 3 guitarists all knew the tunes being played, [ and that is a requirement ] would they be content to take it in turns to play, rather than all 3 playing at once ? And the session in question may already have a regular guitar player, in which case all 3 are superfluous, unless invited.
2 - the sessions in Co. Clare I've been to are of a very high musical standard. They are no place for a "novice" bouzouki player. He / she would be best advised to listen.
3 - They're not short of bodhran players in Co. Clare. Again, one is enough, [ and some would say too many ].
4 - a possible solution, based on something which happened on the West coast of Scotland at a session I was in 4 weeks ago. A French guy comes up to us and says, could he and his friends play some music at some point in the evening ? We thought maybe one or two fiddlers or something might want to come and join us, but no, there were 7 of them, from Lyon, I believe. I don't think they knew any of the Scottish and Irish tunes which were being played, and in actual fact, the physical constraints of space precluded them from joining us, but they were invited to play some of their music, and did so, a few sets of tunes lasting maybe 15 minutes in all, twice in the course of the evening. The regular musicians had a break, and enjoyed their playing, then got back to the usual session. Everybody happy.

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: Mrs C.
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 05:23 PM

First of all I would like to say Leamaneh no I was not referring to your threads in fact you have been helpfull by saying were to go, and no it was no at soldier Schweik I say thank you for your help in the future,
    I think thay know who thay are!!In the 2 threads I have posted I have not once been aggressive or abusive to anyone.
         If you read my thread properly you will find I never once said how to run your folk session just saying how ours is and how we have made many good friends,I did go on to say about I think it would be upsetting to find that someone from our local folk session had been on this site and been an unelected spokesperson for us all!! which I do feel that is what is happening here, I do understand, you do get the odd ones that do like to make a mock of a evening as we have had this our self's , but this does not make me lash out at any poor visitor that cares to come over to or town lest of all when I do not know them or ever spoken to them, making a judgment on how meny come over together again I can not understand!! to me its a bunch of friends that all like the same thing (folk music) thats what thay ask about!! not a Hen or Stag party then I could understand as thay can get a bit loud
    You say you have not said to stay away or that thay would not be welcome at your local or to keep going north, please read what you write!! Were on any of there thread did it say thay were going to be loud, Wanting to take over or that thay were a band?
             Picking just bits out of peoples thread to use
one example} commander crab you just picked up on just part, why did you not put the follow up to it on,      
          As far as I'm aware you don't know who I am. That said, I play guitar and sing. I also visit your lovely country. So, please feel free to label me an idiotic, egotistical, insensitive and untalented plucker.

I also don't know any of you, but I wouldn't dream of labelling as such. Well not until I had witnessed the performance at least.)
         why the response It got!!
      You say Having been told that I have no say in the matter as I'm not native Irish,

   I can not believe for one minute out of all the times I have been over to Ireland and the very warm welcome and friendly hospitality myself and the friends I have been over with have had in the past from the Irish, I find it very hard thay would come on here and say the things that have been said, I think this as answered question's which you have asked.
                      Mrs C.

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: Commander Crabbe
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 06:49 PM

Steve

If you read the OP's post at 07:22 6th April, it states "We don't all play at the same time!" this would seem to imply that they are not a big band. Neither has it been suggested anywhere that they are hell bent on takeover bids either.

Peter

I couldn't agree with you more!

However Jim's comment

"How about your turning up at our local one night and listening while some goat-abusing pratt, obviously under the very mistaken belief that they are god's gift to the tradition, drives the playing of our own musicians into the ground with his/her unrythmical and certainly un-musical offerings."

To some would certainly appear to be somewhat bilious.

Jim

Pray how are people to grace you with their presence? You won't tell us where your session is. In fact your preference as stated earlier is to assume people are untalented and shepherd them off to Doolin!

You state that "All that is requested here is a little sensitivity and good manners" I don't find that offensive at all.

What I do find offensive however, is your assumption (especially as you've never met me) that I and others am not in possession of such.

I also find it quite hard to believe that the author of such astute comments such as:

"How about your turning up at our local one night and listening while some goat-abusing pratt, obviously under the very mistaken belief that they are god's gift to the tradition, drives the playing of our own musicians into the ground with his/her unrythmical and certainly un-musical offerings."

"Like Bannerboy, I've seen hundreds of sessions naused up by insensitive and (often) untalented ego-trippers - bodhrans, keyboards, 12-string Kalashnikovs - we've seen them all, and we still talk about them long after they've gone home - "Remember that goat-beating gobshite......" - and no doubt we will in the future."

Would have the gall to ask visitors for a little sensitivity and good manners!

Another thing you say,

"You may wish to tune your folk session to whoever turns up on the night; but to impose that policy on all clubs and folk venues is the worst case of 'folk policing' (not a term I'm particularly fond of but it seems to fit perfectly here) I've come across and is not only arrogant, but downright dictatorial."

Not quite as arrogant and dictatorial as directing all those who are not considered able enough to play in your session to Doolin methinks.

I'll also answer the question you wish.

"Don't you believe that visitors have behaved in the way we describe; do you think we're making it up - or do you think we should just lay back and think of Ireland?"

Oh we believe you all right, funnily enough it also happens here. As I said previously, you don't have the monopoly.

Finally Jim you are correct, I don't know you. And you may possibly be as good as you say you are.

Enjoy your sessions.

CC

Use what talents you possess; the woods would be very silent if no birds sang except those that sang best. ~ Henry van Dyke

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: GUEST,confused
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 06:52 PM

I really don't know why I'm doing this Kenny but it has already been clearly stated that this mob do not all play at the same time, not three guitars, two bodhrans bashing s**t out of a tune, they seem to be solo singers/players who happen to be on holiday together.

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 07:24 PM

There is at least one bar in Kinvara and at least one in Ballyvaughan that is not Formula One qualifying and welcomes real musicians who don't happen to be Alonsolists or Jensen Button Box players. My good friend Geoff goes there with his caravan and low whistle all summer every year, and tells me that these bars are welcoming to genuine musicians of all tastes and standards, though they prefer it to be of a sort of Irishish tendency. Raggytash, the people over there are really great, and if you're not arrogant (which you aren't) you'll be just fine wherever you go.

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 08:31 PM

We will be 10 strong 3 of whom play guitars, 1 bouzouki (novice)2 Bodhrans and 5 of us sing, our music varies from tradional songs from Cornwall up to Scotland, many contemporary songs and even some Country/middle of the road stuff. We take our session with us, however if we can find other singers/musicians that would be great. McGanns at Doolin is our likely destination for Easter Sunday afternoon unless advised otherwise and at some point I would like to take the gang to Cassidys at Carran.

This is the post that fired up this thread, innit? 10 strong? Anyone with a nice session up for accommodating a 10-strong outfit? With two goat-bashers and three guitars? Stick a bit of country and MOR in there for good measure? Ha! "Take the gang?" Don't sound to me like they're up for playing in ones or twos then! Chaps, line up some pubs that want your gig. Don't even *think* about invading existing sessions. If you really can't understand that much of the demurral in this thread is based on bitter experience of drop-ins wrecking sessions then you can't understand why you are seen as a threat to some of the great things that go on in pubs. In the last twelve months alone we've had a reasonably talented but utterly tasteless and insensitive twat with bodhran/bones/egg and an utter spoon-toting pillock wrecking our session. I could regale you also with stories from the past of brilliant guitarists who can play a chord to every bloody note of an Irish tune and non-instrument-playing singers who want to take over in sessions that don't usually have much singing. Please understand why your post raised alarm bells! Maybe it ain't your fault and maybe you are a superbly-tasteful outfit, but you are up against a lot of bitter history. You need to get gigs in pubs that will have you, and other times do what the rest of us have to do to get welcomed in sessions, that is, put the bloody ego on the back burner and be a bit diffident in accepting that you don't just swan in and start playing. Especially en masse.

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 04:34 AM

"To some would certainly appear to be somewhat bilious."
Yet all based on past experience, which so far none have challenged, nor even had the good manners to acknowlege - let alone offering a solution to the problems we have outlined.
Please read carefully what Steve Shaw has written, and if you have any solution, or the bottle to challenge his and others' similar experiences - feel free - all that has been described, has happened - far to often for it to pass unremarked on.
"You won't tell us where your session is."
We have 3/4 regular sessions a week in this town during the winter months, which can expand to 6 in the summer. All are in small bars which are comfortable-ish out of season but can be intolerbly crowded when visitors arrive in any numbers.
Last night the bar was crammed full - 25-30 listeners and musicians jammed into the small middle-sited kitchen where the music happens and well over a hundred in the front and back bars - some straining to try to listen but most either not interested and talking or had given up trying. The music was, as usual, stunning, but the singing was impossible to hear.
Anybody who stumbles on the session is made welcome and, if they like Irish music, will have a great night - you take your chances along with any other visitor.
We gave up going to the oldest session in town many years ago - far too crowded, even in the winter.
All the bars where the music happens in this town are small, the musicians prefer the coziness, especially during the winter months.
"I don't find that offensive at all."
Then we have no quarrel and you would be welcome - it is those who do find it unacceptible who would not be welcome and who spoil it for regulars and visitors alike.   
"considered able enough to play in your session to Doolin methinks."   
No-one has mentioned ability, apart from you - Doolin caters perfectly for large visitors sessions and I can't think of another bar between there and here that does. The last time I was there - some years ago following a trip to The Aran Islands - a 40-seater coach was disgorging its occupants into O'Connor's bar, most carrying guitars, bouzoukis and bodhrans.
"Not quite as arrogant and dictatorial..."
Nope - a bloody sight more arrogant - who has the right to dictate policy from afar on a session they have probably never visited.
For our directing people to Doolin - see above.
"Oh we believe you all right, funnily enough it also happens here."
Yet you have offered no advice as to how we should deal with it?
"And you may possibly be as good as you say you are."
Where has anybody here claimed to be good bad or indifferent - certainly not me - am I a musician even????
"Enjoy your sessions."
We do - more or less every single one of them, and we hope it will stay that way - we'll do our best. That way we'll maybe get even more than the sixty-odd young people, mostly of school age, that were playing traditional music on the last St Patrick Day's parade, indicating that the music has passed safely into the hands of yet another generation - not bad for a one-street town in the West of Ireland.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 04:55 AM

'Last night the bar was crammed full - 25-30 listeners and musicians jammed into the small middle-sited kitchen where the music happens and well over a hundred in the front and back bars - some straining to try to listen but most either not interested and talking or had given up trying. The music was, as usual, stunning, but the singing was impossible to hear.'

As Jim said, it was loud in there, too loud possibly, with a large group of people in town for a wedding. In fairness the wedding party spat out some musicians, sister of the bride Elaine Cormican, a member of the band Líadan, her husband playing guitar and her sister playing the whistle occasionally. And we were happy to have them for the night. Six to seven people playing and four or five who sang a song (inside the kitchen we could just about hear them over the general racket). It was a nice night. Music in Clare.

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 06:46 AM

we too had a great night in BALLYDEHOB COUNTY CORK.
This weekend is the Ballydehob traditional music weekend, there were music sessions and singing sessions.
I was playing in a music session on Friday night,Local musicians were joined by visitors and the session was very friendly and welcoming, it is one of the few OPEN SESSIONS which continues throughout the year in the area , it has been going for 24 years.
Last night I was at 2 different song sessions, the singers at one session included irish german belgian hungarian and english and american nationailities, both sessions were of a high standard and inclusive rather than exclusive.
The problem here is prejudice, RAGGYTASH is being prejudged.

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: Mrs C.
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 07:13 AM

Jim Steve
    I have read both your threads and as I can see Steve & Jim, Thread you have pointed out could be miss read if reading it when you already have the hang ups about visitors, that is very clear for all to see, you also make it very clear you have small pubs and you like to keep it that why!! which still not named..you ask how to deal with the onslaught of your visitors,Think you're doing that insulting them on here publishing them in the paper.this not the only thread you have told visters to keep going on to Doolin is it Jim!!
It as also been pointed out by you that you do not claim } Where has anybody here claimed to be good bad or indifferent - certainly not me - am I a musician even???? well why do you keep going on about all the bad you seem to be getting that seem to be spoiling your sessions to me that reads we are good we dont want just anyone in our pubs!
       I also said we live in a holiday town which as a strong folk following which as a town we are proud we do get a few that do not know how things work but thay is one thing we do not!! Is to be insulting before thay get here and if things are not as thay should thay is such thing as politeness!! polite talking to the person or people involved. (Rudeness and aggression gets that back)!! Also reading on here, Raggy had apologised for the why it sounded: being Yorkshire to me reading it just sounded humerus but then I dont look for bad in people. (Maybe a Alpha male thing)..
      Being a women by the way are none of the above of the remarks given to visitors to your town on here} I am not a musician or singer, just a lover of folk music and Ireland for holiday, Which we do in a group!! As a group we do respect the country and its traditions, wonderful Irish people,which we have meny great Irish friends. Also know how to behave in a session as you put it, folk session edict is the words}   
    (Husband is musician and singer)I would not put him in your category idiotic, egotistical, insensitive and untalented plucker. friends we travel to Ireland with do not come under that title, so to be labeled just because we travel as a group of friends I find this very insulting!.
          Another thing why dident anyone think of contacting Raggy though here as a private massage and find out facts instead of being so offensive rude and aggressive and publishing it in the paper, I would have thought that would have been the better why with things not insults!! As you called it the alarm bells started ringing!!friends coming to your town with instruments and singing voices
            Mrs C.
    PS I do know Raggy and he does not come under any of the titles you give on here, you could not meet a nicer guy...

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 07:42 AM

In all fairness to Jim Mrs C., Jim told Raggytash earlier to avoid Doolin, read it here

There's a reason why this thread turned sour, I pointed that out above: differing expectations and a fair bit of unhelpful name calling and ditto assumptions on both sides.

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 08:08 AM

Mrs C
I would point out that insults rudeness and aggression have flown from all directions, as have misrepresentations - your last possting being full of these.
We do not have hang-ups with visitors; we thrive on them, they come, and are welcomed throughout the year, mainly for the music. This town plays host to one of the leading traditional music events in Ireland which has made a tremendous contribution to traditional music in this country and pretty well assured its flourishing for at least another generation.
We get visitors here throughout the year, they are very much a part of the pleasure of living here.
I don't ask how to deal with the onslaught of visitors - not a term I would dream of using - I ask how we deal with the insensitivity and crassness of the badly behaved ones who have in the past, and no doubt will in the future, wreck sessions with their bad behaviour.
Nobody here is ever treated rudely, no matter how badly they behave, but the worse ones are not encouraged to return and we handle them in the best way possible while they are here.
Why didn't anybody contact Raggy privately - because these forums are ideal mediums for discussing openly problems such as these.
Nobody has suggested Raggy and his friends are badly behaved - we don't know him - we have suggested that for a group of that size travelling and wishing to play music, the venues here are not suitable - not exclusivity, nor judgemental, just a practical suggestion, made at first in a friendly manner until somebody threw their rattle out of the pram.
I really don't understand much of your posting - certainly not the sexist 'Alpha-male' bit.
"well why do you keep going on about all the bad....."
Because it happens and we don't reserve the right to comment on it only for musicians, it nauses up the listeners evenings as well - no musician/non-musician exclusivity here.
And we don't 'prefer' to confine out music to small bars, that is an accident of history - the town only has two large bars, both pop-music venues for youngsters.
Nobody is pre-judging anybody, on the contrary, we are all post-responding to each others bad behaviour - well - badly, and we are still no nearer finding a solution to bad session behaviour.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 08:31 AM

And while I'm at it - there is still not one of you who has had the good grace or honesty to admit that we might have experienced bad behaviour from visitors - or the bottle to claim that we are making it up.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: Mrs C.
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 08:57 AM

Peter
      The point is being missed here, I have answered everything that Jim as asked and not been rude to him. but what I first can not understand that a few spokesmen can come on here and slander a bunch of people thay clearly do not know, then for it to go in the paper, dont you think these people have feelings!! when all it would have taken is a message to Raggy and find out what things were.
       As from the main thread which thay say started this which Raggy put on, I do believe was tryed to put right!!
    Jim being the main one with the very aggressive manner and very rude way of speech to wards visitors to your town (thats if you live there)as you did not say!
    So as a visitor to Ireland I find the abuse very insulting and hurtful to be titled from someone who clearly does not know me or my husband, you can not say or justify some of is wording is in very bad taste!! to put on here at people, I said before on my above thread (Rudeness and aggression gets that back)!! I think in this day and age thay is far too much aggresstion about, what do we get out of it!!
       The thing I can agree with is from} Good Soldier Schweik}   The problem here is prejudice, RAGGYTASH is being prejudged.
               Mrs C.

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: Mrs C.
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 09:29 AM

Jim I am am well a were you experienced bad behaviour from visitors and I do know how that feels and frustrating it can get, and have all my sympathy in this, thay is know hard fast fix for this, I do believe you 100% that you are not lying on this, we get it were we are, just dont like being branded before you know me,
    If I have a Offended I am truly sorry just dont like rudeness, or aggression noting comes of it!!
                      Mrs C.

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 09:38 AM

'The point is being missed here'

Well, if a point I being missed it the one either side is trying to get across.

I think Bannerboy's initial advice to stick to Doolin was a sound one. Certainly in light of Raggytash already stating (on the other thread) that was the intention anyway.

I would personally not have chosen the way Bannerboy put his message across but could understand where he was coming from. At that point Raggytash went into defence mode and to be honest, he and those who followed quite handily managed to match the tone of the post they were responding to. Following that, sides were taken, each side dug in and no progress has been made since.

It could well help to start a different thread on the various expectations different people have of what a session is or should be to them. It could be educational.

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: GUEST,Leamaneh
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 02:17 PM

I'll state without reservation that we welcome visiting musicians and singers to Clare.

However, most of us who play regularly in sessions here would prefer visiting musicians to play melody instruments. Fiddlers, flute players, pipers, concertina players, accordionists, harpers, etc. are more than welcome, as is anybody who can play a tune with the rest of us on an instrument I might have omitted.

The thing is we've already got our own homegrown cohorts of strummers and percussionists, some of whom are very good indeed, so we don't really need any more (though, if you're good enough, we'll happily extend the invitation).

More than a bunch of us are less keen on singers. We're happy to take a break from the tunes for the occasional song, but not to have our night out dominated by vocals.

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 03:13 PM

"Jim being the main one with the very aggressive manner and very rude"
NO I AM NOT -AND IF YOU REALLY BELIEVE I AM PLEASE POINT IT OUT.
My first comments on bad behaviour were general ones aimed at nobody in particular and based on my own personal experiences.
I have no idea what kind of music the group play and I would not dream of commenting on it until I had heard it.
I seem to remember that my comments were described in McNally's article as being "one of the more polite" or some such.
If you care to examine this thread, I think you will find that the first shot in these particular hostilities were fired by Raggytash who suggested that at least two of us had no right to an opinion because we were not originally from this area - he then went on, rather poutingly, to say his planned visit to Clare would be his last one - things just deteriorated from there.
                                                          At the present time, Mrc C, the only one being rude and aggressive is YOU.
Not only have you described my behaviour as such, but you have claimed, completely without foundation, that I have a problem with visitors                                                                            I MOST CERTAINLY DO NOT.
Nobody has judged, prejudged or even commented on Raggytash - certainly not me, and to continue to suggest otherwise is simply not true - if this is not so, please point it out to me.
The only prejudice here is that shown by you towards people who care enough about their music to want it treated with respect.
And for the record, describing me or anybody as 'spokesman' for anything other than our own opinions is just about as innaccuratee and misleading as most thing you have posted on this thread so far.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 04:54 PM

Leamaneh puts it in a nutshell. Unfortunately, Raggytash, who may well, for all I know, have a bunch of brilliant and tasteful musicians, didn't do anything like enough in the pivotal post (the one I reposted with emphases just up the thread) to reassure his potential hosts that his blokes wouldn't just swan in with their geetars, bodhrans, country music and MOR songs and take over. His only, very limited, reassurance appeared to be that not all ten of 'em will play at once. Well there's a relief then.

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 05:45 PM

This is a very interesting discussion, but please remember to keep a civil tone. We're almost all musicians here, and we've all experienced the problems expressed - on both sides.

I'm not in Ireland - I'm in Colfax, California, in the Sierra Foothills. We have a monthly singing session with eight to ten singers that is absolutely delightful, and it took years for us to build the session to what we wanted. We like visitors, but we find that sometimes they're problematic - particularly if they play instruments. If we had ten people with instruments come all at the same time, we wouldn't know what to do.

I suppose we'd have to ritualize a recitation of "the rules," so that the newcomers would know how we operate - but that's clumsy and off-putting. So, I don't really know what we would do.

I have to say that when I was in County Clare, and all over the West of Ireland, I was disappointed that I didn't find any traditional music - all I found was country-sounding music sung with a twangy brogue. I didn't find traditional music until Martin Ryan took me to a couple of sessions in Dublin, and I will be in his debt for that for the rest of my life. I really would have liked to hear some traditional sessions in County Clare - and I would have behaved myself.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: MartinRyan
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 06:25 PM

So Joe - get your ass over here this year sometime and we'll sneak across the border from Galway to Clare and I'll show you the Good, the Bad and the Ugly! ;>)

Regards

p.s. Half the folkies in the world think Kinvara is in Clare, anyway...

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 06:39 PM

Good and true Leamaneh, and all my love to Maire Ruadh, but last time I was I Kilfenora (almost 20 years ago so things might have changed) the big boys were tuning their fiddles to E flat. Now I'd have been impressed if they were PLAYING in e flat on an ordinary fiddle, but the old open string thing doesn't hit that way. I suspect an outbreak of flash box players at the time, but my flute didn't work well with hem and I had to resort to the notmuchused whistle.

Raggytash will be fine; they love real musicians. The real problem is that they are all fighting against each other.

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: michaelr
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 06:54 PM

The real problem is that they are all fighting against each other.

They wouldn't be Irish if they didn't, now would they? ;-)

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 07:28 PM

but last time I was I Kilfenora (almost 20 years ago so things might have changed) the big boys were tuning their fiddles to E flat.

Heheh. Savvy harmonica players would never go anywhere without harps tuned to E flat, A flat and B flat, just in case. We may get a bad press but we're not stoopid...!

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 07:48 PM

The real problem is that they are all fighting against each other.

They wouldn't be Irish if they didn't, now would they? ;-)

Well, they could be English...

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: Commander Crabbe
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 07:56 PM

Jim/Steve/Peter

Many thanks for your replies explaining in more detail your situation. Firstly let me assure you that I am not trying to dictate to you how to run your session.

Secondly you ask for advice on any possible solutions to a problem which although not restricted to Clare appears to be more prevalent there.

Can we leave the egocentric gods gifts for later!

From what you say there are at least three or four problems to deal with other than the above.

Firstly is that you are almost certainly victims of your own success. Since the explosion of such as (dare I mention them) Riverdance!, Celtic Women, the High Kings, Enya etc. And before them The Chieftains, The Dubliners and many more to mention. There has been world wide interest in Irish traditional music and musicians. This includes not only listening to it but there are obviously those who will want to play and sing as well. This should not be regarded as a bad thing as to some extent it keeps the tradition alive. However we would do well to remember that this interest will inevitably generate a multitude of singers and players who will vary in ability from excellent through capable to maybe not so good.

Clare being a musically rich county will, as you well know, attract them in droves. As Peter says they will all have their expectations some will only come to listen others will most certainly want to join in with varying results!

Unfortunately the only real solution for being a victim of your own success is not to be a success! This is not really a viable solution so until such time as Irish music becomes unpopular with the rest of the world you are unfortunately going to have to live with the fact that you're going to be invaded on a regular basis by the excellent, the good and the not so good.

Second and thirdly you are victims of your circumstance and choice. All your sessions are in small bars which as you say is the choice of the musicians as they are cosy during the winter. Not a bad choice in my opinion, however, because of the multitude of people who wish to listen and join in the experience it generates it own problems. Those that can't get near the music or hear it start up conversations which raises the noise level forcing the musicians singers to sing/play louder which raises the conversation level and so on in a vicious increasing spiral until no one wins. This is a particular problem in our town. If we are lucky those of the audience who have come specifically to listen police the noisy ones into silence or subdued murmurs, otherwise we have to live with it.

Solutions, well, other than changing the venue to a larger hostelry and evicting the disco. Your only real option is to amplify (sharp hiss of breath) music to the extremities so they can hear as well, which generally (hopefully) keeps the interest up and conversation level down. Changing to a larger venue can bring its own problems and you tend to lose the intimacy. It can also exacerbate the noise problem as well. Also it will most likely not be the same acoustically.

This is also not a viable solution as it doesn't fulfil the regular musicians choice.

Leaving the egocentric few out of it. Most people if advised of the session/sing around etiquette beforehand will adhere to it. Those that don't know and feel that it's OK to join in uninvited have to be told then and there. Most will accept it, those that don't will most likely leave which solves your problem. This unfortunately will depend on their level of sobriety! In which case a different tack will be required.

As Peter said it is all about expectations. The regular session players expect to play as usual without being screwed up by poor playing or good but unsympathetic playing. The visitors that come to play/sing/learn and experience the joy of good music expect that you may let them join in and experience this.

The only solution which will satisfy both expectations will most likely be a compromise. I don't know the volume of visitors during the winter or summer months. However. Of the three or four regular sessions per week one or two (or even an additional) could be designated as open or open by invitation each venue taking it's turn on a week by week basis while the others are closed to regulars only listeners welcome.

The same could possibly happen during the summer as well. I don't know if you have the ability to make the venues larger by heading outside into a marquee during the summer months but that may alleviate the crowding a little. You could even try a workshop type event. That way, those that wish to could benefit from the experience of the regular session players and be introduced to the wonderful tradition and etiquette.

However this kind of compromise would definitely require the agreement and cooperation of the regular sessioneers.

As far as letting people know particular session etiquette there are many ways. This has to be done, as an assumption that people should know, will, inevitably be wrong. If it's done sensitively with good manners it will almost always generate sensitivity and good manners from those it is aimed at.

With regard to as you say "insensitive and (often) untalented ego-trippers" I don't really think there is a solution to these people. They exist and generally speaking can or will not be educated to the error of their ways. Luckily enough if they are only visitors they go away eventually. Pointing them in the direction of Doolin may work to some extent but from what you say doesn't stop them slipping through though.

Lastly, as I said before, a compromise is probably your best bet and even then it may not change your situation.

As Mary Engelbreit advised; If you don't like something, change it; if you can't change it, change the way you think about it.

Please be aware however that I'm not insisting you do. However, somebody has to make the first move and you may have more of a chance changing the way a few think, than the thousands of visitors you are expecting to get this year and the years to come.

Please be assured none of the above is intended to offend.

Regards and good luck

CC

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 08:26 PM

Well our session (which is in Cornwall, not Ireland) is our night out. It is not a performance for "punters" and it is not wide open to any Tom/Dick/Harry who turns up. We always accommodate visitors as it happens, but we reserve the right, following bitter experience, to prowl around them in the friendliest possible way before they get to play. It is a small pub and we can't allow droves of drop-ins at one go. We have a zero-tolerance policy to bodhran owners and other sundry bashers, clickers and shakers, and we definitely don't want any extra geetar players. And we sing but little, and "but little" is what we want, and it's basically our shout, 'cos we've been doing it for over 15 years at this pub. God, don't we sound all tough. But we're not at all. It's just that we have had those bitter experiences with drop-ins I referred to, and we want to preserve harmony by being just a tad picky. And who would blame us?

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 03:02 AM

CC
Thanks for that.
That is how this discussion should have been conducted in the first place.
Sessions with regular problems usually have their own ways of dealing with them; I still cherish the memory of how two musicians here managed to make their point to a heavy-handed bodhran player simply by their choice of tunes - magic!
The problem is not that locals are rude to vistors who leave their good manners at home; rather it is the opposite - the natural hospitality of Clare people often leads to them tolerating unacceptable behaviour.
I saw one of Ireland's finest veteran traditional concertina players first edged out of his home session by visitors playing too fast and too loud for his style, until finally he retreated into a corner, relegated to the bench - the visitors fed him free pints, more or less to keep him quiet.
This became a regular summer-long practice until it became virtually impossible to get him to play and the only way you could get to hear his magnificent playing was to buy his album - losers all round, I'd say.
Whoever comes here to play will find a welcome - enjoy!
Jim Carroll
PS Joe - didn't find music in Clare? Are you sure you didn't take a wrong turning and end up on Mars?

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 12:15 PM

There's us four playing in this pub, and we work hard for the crack
You're not getting in the session, so you might as well go back
It's a long, long way, but you wont get to play
It's a long way from Clare to here

It's a long way from Clare to here
It's a long way from Clare to here
It's a long, long way, and you'll never get to play
It's a long way from Clare to here

When the session comes around, some are only into fighting
Bodhrans at twenty paces, things are getting frightening
It's a long, long way, you still wont get to play
It's a long way from Clare to here

It almost breaks my heart when I think what could have been
A banjo, ten guitars, and half a dozen tambourines
It's a long, long way, you still wont get to play
It's a long way from Clare to here

And the only time I feel alright is when I'm into drinking
I probably should have stayed home, is what I'm a thinking
It's a long, long way, you still wont get to play
It's a long way from Clare to here

I sometimes hear a fiddle play or maybe it's a notion
We should have thrown the bodhrans from the ferry to the ocean
It's a long, long way, you still wont get to play
It's a long way from Clare to here


It's a long, long way from Clare to here.

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: Commander Crabbe
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 11:01 PM

Steve

I don't blame you whatsoever, like I said I am not trying to tell you how to run your session. Now that I know you don't want any extra "geetar" players I'll remember to pack the mandolin/mandola. However, it's a long way to Cornwall and we have no plans to visit in the near future.

Jim

You're welcome.

CC

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 05:22 AM

We don't "run" our session as such. It's our beery night out with some good tunes. We share it with anyone of like mind and spirit. But there's the rub, innit.

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 01:05 PM

a session has to have one or 2 persons to anchor it , with a big repertoire of tunes
who can be relied upon to turn up regularly, IT DOESNT JUST HAPPEN, unless the people enjoy each others company, this might sound like stating the obvious but..
a bodhran or guitarist cannot run a session without melody instruments.
If I want a beery night out with good tunes,I would rather do it with somebody whose company I enjoy, and with more melody instruments than spoons and assorted thwacking things, this is not aimed at anyone in particular other than bodhran players spoon players and guitarists, one percussion instrument is enough, 2 guitarists are enough, preferably alternating.

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 01:17 PM

"a bodhran or guitarist cannot run a session without melody instruments."
And quite often melody instruments cannot run a session with a bodhran or guitarist - especially the former
They have open season on them here between January and December!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 02:57 PM

Am I alone in thinking that some people make a career out of being contentious ?

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: GUEST,Mack
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 03:44 PM

The Folk Police are alive and well, living in Ireland and making pre-emptive strikes on those planning to invade traditional music sessions.

Henceforth, FP officers will man all Irish ports of entry assessing the musical competence of visitors. Offensive instruments – bodhrans, bouzoukis amd guitars (especially 12-strings) – will be decommissioned and their owners sentenced to hard labour (also known as long periods of listening to sean nos singing).

Parties of three or more will be granted visas to Doolin ONLY.

NB: Those seeking applications to join the Folk Police need not worry – all officers are self-appointed.

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 04:41 PM

Has anybody (especially those who hide behind such terms as 'folk police) ever wondered why the bodhran is as unpopular as it is?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 04:55 PM

yes Jim, bewildered folk start threads on here and the session about it all the time and are very quickly informed that bodhrans are not the heartbeat of Irish music. But surely you knew this?

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 05:50 PM

"not the heartbeat of Irish music."
In many places they are regarded as the 'death-watch beetle' of Irish music
The 'heatbeat' was an American was an American invention.
I wonder why so many people dislike them?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: GUEST,allenhopkins
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 06:33 PM

Wow! Found this thread through a link from the Mandolin Cafe. I've been playing in jams and sessions Stateside for 40 years (mandolin family, concertina), and have never been to Ireland, much less Co. Clare. Now I'm sure I'd never pass the entrance exams! I'd be petrified that I'd do something "offensive, insensitive, egotistical" or whatever. Must be hard to relax and enjoy, worrying all the time if someone won't like your taste or technique. Hope all are having a wonderful time in the rarified atmosphere of true ITM virtuosity... I'm scared off.

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 04:39 AM

"I'm scared off."
Luckily the youngsters here aren't, and are flocking to the music in their thousands, which will guarantee its continuing to flourish for at least another generation - nothing rarefied about it - just respected and enjoyed for what it is, beautiful music worthy of a little effort by those who play it.
Wonder if you can say the same for your traditional music?
Over the last few decades Clare has played a major part in turning the fortunes of Irish music on its head, from the despised "diddly-di" music it once was described as, to a loved, well respected and supported pastime, valued for its contribution to the culture and for the many thousand tourists that come flocking in each year to listen and play - so it hasn't 'scared off' too many faint hearts!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: GUEST,Mack
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 12:22 PM

Never mind your musical ability, Allen, from what a previous post suggests, being an American will be enough to ensure that you won't be welcome!

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: GUEST,Leamaneh
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 12:33 PM

I'd ignore anything written by Jim Carroll, Allen and Mack. I'm reliably informed that he doesn't play a musical instrument.

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 12:50 PM

much as it upsets me to say this, because there are many aspects of Comhaltas I loathe, some credit must be given to this organisation for gettin youngsters in county clare and ireland to play irish traditional music

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 12:51 PM

I'd ignore anything written by Jim Carroll. I'm reliably informed that he doesn't play a musical instrument.
Are musicians the only people allowed to comment on music nowadays - a tad elitist, doncha think?
My - you folk police have been busy, haven't you?
"being an American will be enough to ensure that you won't be welcome!"
Where was that? I don't know a family in Clare who doesn't have at least half-a-dozen American relatives.
The only Americans not welcome in Clare are the ones that land at Shannon airport taking illegally held prisoners to be tortured in places like Turkey and the Middle East.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: GUEST,Leamaneh
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 01:03 PM

I was merely noting that a non-musician cannot speak on behalf of musicians and especially how they feel about blow-ins.

Subject: RE: Music in Co Clare
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 02:37 PM

100