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Is Geordie a separate language?

alex s 09 Mar 11 - 12:29 PM
GUEST,Eliza 09 Mar 11 - 12:40 PM
GUEST,Chris P 09 Mar 11 - 01:11 PM
GUEST,Eliza 09 Mar 11 - 01:21 PM
Herga Kitty 09 Mar 11 - 01:21 PM
Folkiedave 09 Mar 11 - 02:08 PM
peregrina 09 Mar 11 - 02:11 PM
Dave MacKenzie 09 Mar 11 - 02:17 PM
Darowyn 09 Mar 11 - 02:24 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 09 Mar 11 - 02:34 PM
GUEST,Eliza 09 Mar 11 - 02:54 PM
Dave Sutherland 09 Mar 11 - 04:05 PM
GUEST,leeneia 09 Mar 11 - 04:09 PM
GUEST,leeneia 09 Mar 11 - 04:50 PM
Allan Conn 09 Mar 11 - 05:23 PM
Arthur_itus 09 Mar 11 - 06:06 PM
C-flat 10 Mar 11 - 04:32 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 10 Mar 11 - 04:58 AM
GUEST,SID 10 Mar 11 - 05:42 AM
alex s 10 Mar 11 - 05:42 AM
DMcG 10 Mar 11 - 05:48 AM
DMcG 10 Mar 11 - 05:49 AM
Max Johnson 10 Mar 11 - 05:56 AM
Allan Conn 10 Mar 11 - 06:26 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 10 Mar 11 - 07:18 AM
Valmai Goodyear 10 Mar 11 - 07:59 AM
A Wandering Minstrel 10 Mar 11 - 08:04 AM
alex s 10 Mar 11 - 08:37 AM
Allan Conn 10 Mar 11 - 08:46 AM
Wheatman 10 Mar 11 - 09:10 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 10 Mar 11 - 10:15 AM
Sailor Ron 10 Mar 11 - 11:18 AM
GUEST,SID 10 Mar 11 - 11:24 AM
Wolfhound person 10 Mar 11 - 12:04 PM
GUEST,Chris P 10 Mar 11 - 01:55 PM
Herga Kitty 10 Mar 11 - 02:01 PM
GUEST,Eliza 10 Mar 11 - 03:26 PM
Edthefolkie 10 Mar 11 - 03:59 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Mar 11 - 04:25 PM
alex s 10 Mar 11 - 06:39 PM
Geordie-Peorgie 10 Mar 11 - 07:31 PM
Gibb Sahib 10 Mar 11 - 08:58 PM
katlaughing 10 Mar 11 - 10:04 PM
C-flat 11 Mar 11 - 03:03 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 11 Mar 11 - 04:52 AM
BobKnight 11 Mar 11 - 07:26 AM
A Wandering Minstrel 11 Mar 11 - 07:46 AM
GUEST,henryp 11 Mar 11 - 08:13 AM
alex s 11 Mar 11 - 09:29 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 11 Mar 11 - 09:46 AM
GUEST,leeneia 11 Mar 11 - 10:00 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 11 Mar 11 - 10:56 AM
GUEST 11 Mar 11 - 11:29 AM
GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler 11 Mar 11 - 05:32 PM
Gibb Sahib 11 Mar 11 - 07:17 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 11 Mar 11 - 08:51 PM
Wheatman 12 Mar 11 - 02:25 AM
DMcG 12 Mar 11 - 02:51 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 12 Mar 11 - 04:23 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 12 Mar 11 - 04:28 AM
Manitas_at_home 12 Mar 11 - 05:04 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 12 Mar 11 - 05:28 AM
Mr Red 12 Mar 11 - 05:55 AM
Dave MacKenzie 12 Mar 11 - 06:19 AM
Jack Blandiver 12 Mar 11 - 06:19 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 12 Mar 11 - 07:01 AM
alex s 12 Mar 11 - 07:40 AM
Allan Conn 12 Mar 11 - 10:41 AM
Allan Conn 12 Mar 11 - 10:53 AM
GUEST,leeneia 12 Mar 11 - 10:56 AM
Allan Conn 12 Mar 11 - 11:08 AM
alex s 12 Mar 11 - 11:32 AM
Dave MacKenzie 12 Mar 11 - 11:51 AM
Allan Conn 12 Mar 11 - 01:16 PM
Wolfhound person 12 Mar 11 - 01:52 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 12 Mar 11 - 03:01 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 12 Mar 11 - 03:39 PM
Dave MacKenzie 12 Mar 11 - 05:19 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 12 Mar 11 - 08:19 PM
Darowyn 13 Mar 11 - 04:28 AM
Allan Conn 13 Mar 11 - 05:09 AM
Allan Conn 13 Mar 11 - 06:20 AM
GUEST,ChrisP 13 Mar 11 - 06:20 AM
MGM·Lion 13 Mar 11 - 06:23 AM
Allan Conn 13 Mar 11 - 06:28 AM
GUEST,henryp 13 Mar 11 - 08:25 AM
GUEST,Longlankin 13 Mar 11 - 08:35 AM
alex s 13 Mar 11 - 10:30 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 13 Mar 11 - 01:44 PM
GUEST 13 Mar 11 - 07:42 PM
Art Thieme 13 Mar 11 - 08:46 PM
GUEST,leeneia 14 Mar 11 - 12:31 AM
GUEST,Glasgow 14 Mar 11 - 05:13 AM
MGM·Lion 14 Mar 11 - 05:54 AM
Max Johnson 14 Mar 11 - 07:07 AM
Dave MacKenzie 14 Mar 11 - 08:13 AM
GUEST,DF 14 Mar 11 - 08:41 AM
Allan Conn 14 Mar 11 - 09:00 AM
Manitas_at_home 14 Mar 11 - 09:08 AM
Allan Conn 14 Mar 11 - 09:28 AM
TheSnail 14 Mar 11 - 09:44 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 14 Mar 11 - 10:02 AM
TheSnail 14 Mar 11 - 10:05 AM
Dave MacKenzie 14 Mar 11 - 10:57 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 14 Mar 11 - 11:29 AM
BobKnight 14 Mar 11 - 11:55 AM
Darowyn 14 Mar 11 - 02:35 PM
Allan Conn 14 Mar 11 - 03:31 PM
Allan Conn 14 Mar 11 - 04:05 PM
GUEST,Paul Burke 14 Mar 11 - 04:49 PM
TheSnail 15 Mar 11 - 11:04 AM
Dave MacKenzie 15 Mar 11 - 02:13 PM
Herga Kitty 15 Mar 11 - 02:25 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 15 Mar 11 - 02:45 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 15 Mar 11 - 02:51 PM
Dave MacKenzie 15 Mar 11 - 02:54 PM
GUEST,glueman 15 Mar 11 - 03:49 PM
GUEST,glueman 15 Mar 11 - 04:00 PM
MGM·Lion 16 Mar 11 - 01:11 AM
GUEST 09 Oct 14 - 09:03 AM
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Subject: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: alex s
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 12:29 PM

Recently at a session I sang a couple of songs from Tyneside (being an authentic Geordie) and a girl asked me in all seriousness what language I was singing in....

[Mind, I feel the same when I listen to the Mighty Sid Calderbank (good luck with the show, Sid)]


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 12:40 PM

My Grandfather was born and lived all his life in North Shields. When my parents took me up there at the age of five, I couldn't understand a word anybody said. My Grandpa tried to teach me 'The Bladen Races' then took me down to his local, (air thick with baccy smoke) I tried my best but they dissolved into gales of laughter, as seated on the bar I sang 'The Blazing Races'. They called me the bairn, said things like 'Why aye', 'Haway' and discussed bets on the cuddies etc etc. I think Geordie has many Lowland Scots words in it, such as claggy (sticky) nettie (outside toilet) aye (yes) and so on.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Chris P
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 01:11 PM

Why Lowland Scots? Aye was always normal English too, down to the tip of the Isle of Wight, netty is proper Geordie, (perhaps from the Italian 'gabinetti'!) with no dictionary refs to Scotland, and claggy is straightforward Northern English, from the same word as clay.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 01:21 PM

Most interesting Guest Chris P. Have you any idea where geographically Northern English stopped and normal English began? In Phonetics, we were taught that there is a dividing line across England where the 'a' in bath becomes short, but that's pronunciation not language of course.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 01:21 PM

According to the CD notes for Jim Mageean's "Gan Canny", the Geordie dialect is a direct descendant of Anglo-Saxon....

And all 20 tracks on Jim's new CD are in Geordie dialect!

Kitty


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 02:08 PM

I have always imagined the difference between a language and a dialect is that to be a language it needs separate a separate grammar system.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: peregrina
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 02:11 PM

"A language is a dialect with an army and a navy."


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 02:17 PM

My daughter's Norwegian boyfriend understands perfectly when a Geordie says he's 'gannin hyem'.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Darowyn
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 02:24 PM

"Have you any idea where geographically Northern English stopped and normal English began? In Phonetics, we were taught that there is a dividing line across England where the 'a' in bath becomes short, but that's pronunciation not language of course. "
Normal?
Normal?
How dare you sir?

Northern English is normal! That lot down south with their long "a" copied from Spanish, and all the words slavishly adopted from their Norman masters don't know normal English from demotic Greek. Just because the BBC decide to use a south east midlands dialect, that doesn't make it the norm.

Anyway, you will not find a clear and straight dividing line. Just look at the place names. Some names are clearly Anglo Saxon, Ponders End, Sandy etc. Others are clearly Nordic, Fridaythorpe and Wetwang for example. Yet Rothersthorpe is a long way south on the M1, and Britonic names occur in the west midlands, Malvern being one.
It's just where our ancestors settled, and set about welding together four or five root languages to make our beautiful English Language.
Cheers
Dave


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 02:34 PM

I'm a Geordie who gets by in Lancashire though the old plaster / master thing tends to get to people - in Geordie we make the A vowels long, as in ART - but we still shorten them for PLASTIC and most other places, as in Newcastle, where the flatened A carries the stress. Different language? Part of the glorious regional diversity of English, but I had Irish, Scots, Pitmatic, RP and Mackum influences in their too, not to mention an education in Delaval where I freely mixed with kids from Seghill and Seaton Sluice. Is there any Folklore threads here about The Seghill Ring? About as far removed from Wagner as you wish, though my enduring memory of Seghill was the factory where they once made fibreglass minourettes for mosques. A true multi-cultural economy...


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 02:54 PM

Sorry, Darowyn, I was quoting Guest Chris P with regard to 'normal English'. I think we both meant 'standard RP English'. I think the BBC now try to include regional accents as much as possible for their presenters, which in my view is an excellent idea. Suibhne Astray, my sister traced our ancestors and centuries ago and one of them was the Customs Officer for Seaton Sluice.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 04:05 PM

In South Shields it was the p in bath that was silent.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 04:09 PM

"My daughter's Norwegian boyfriend understands perfectly when a Geordie says he's 'gannin hyem'."

So do I! Does this mean Missouri is a province of Norway?


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 04:50 PM

I went to YouTube and searched for Georgie dialect.

Wow, you people are serious about this northern-southern stuff, aren't you? It was an eye opener! Makes me proud, of course, that my forefathers came from the north.

Learn here about the Royal Society for the Protection of Northerners.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzTYNhWoLZ4&feature=related

PS Judging from the rate at which it is spoken, I believe Geordie is the father of Chicagoan.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 05:23 PM

"to be a language it needs separate a separate grammar system."

I think to be a language it just needs to be recognised as such - and as someone pointed out that often equates with having an army and a navy. For instance Scots used to be recognised as a language, then it wasn't, and now it is officially recognised again by the Scottish govt, UK govt and EU. There are various other regional or minority languages recognised in the UK for example Cornish, Scottish Gaelic etc. I think at some of the meetings concerning the European Charter etc there have been representatives from other groups there as onlookers only at this point. For example Romany speakers and folk from the Northumbrian Language Society. I imagine Geordie is really only one of the Northumbrian dialects. Just as there is no single dialect of Scots.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 06:06 PM

Nothing like the Black Country Language/Dialect/Accent. I beleive the oldest in England.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:If_yowm_saft_enuff.jpg


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: C-flat
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 04:32 AM

Living in Sunderland, I'm learning to distinguish (just about) the slight difference in accent between the Sunderland folk (Mackems) and the Newcastle folk (Geordies) 10 miles further along the road.
At a bakers shop I call into in Sunderland, the owners wife was complaining, in a broad Geordie/Sunderland accent, about how all the workmen, working on the road outside their shop, were Geordies!!!

I'm originally from Middlesbrough, just 30 miles South, and the Teeside accent has more in common with the Scouse/Liverpool accent over 100 miles away.
The Geordie accent seems to stop very close to Newcastle/Gateshead, still evident in Durham, but very much softened.
I think it's wonderful how we have so many completely different regional accents only a few miles apart but I often imagine how difficult it must be for foreign visitors, who must feel like they're crossing international boundaries every 30 miles!


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 04:58 AM

Mackem is similar (coarser / urban) to the general Durham Dialect which has much in common with Teeside Dialects too (Vic Reeves is from Darlington / Bob Mortimer frrom Middlesbrough). You're going to hear Geordie dialects north of the Tyne primarily - old Northumberland as was - right up to Berwick (where you get a lot of Scots too, and bi-lingual road signs over the border which is absurd). You'll hear it in North Durham too (the Consett / Stanley axis) though by the time you're getting to Craghead & Sacriston it's sounding very Durham. Not sure about Scouse though, which has even less to do with Mancunian which is still closer. You hear a similar thing to Scouse in Southport, but nothing of that but a few miles away in Preston. As a kid I could hear the differences between Seghill, Backworth, Delaval & Seaton Sluice, but we could still talk to each other. Just goes to show how things develope in isolation. I dare say the old villages were Pitmatic in their day, but that takes real work. You still here an edge of it in rural Rothbury and even in Ashington & Blyth. All is flux though - difficult to pin down hard & fast rules.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,SID
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 05:42 AM

My friends in the Northumbrian Language Society (www.northumbriana.org.uk) reckon it is and I'm comfortable with that. Here's my humble, but considered, opinion. A thousand years ago, the ancient kingdom of Northumbria, as it's name suggests, covered all the land north of the Humber up to and including the Scottish Lowlands. Many scholars believe that this was the dominant language of all England and fragments of it survive in all the northern English dialects. From the 14th century and the establishment of Oxford & Cambridge Universities, the activities of Chaucer and later Shakespeare, the language of Mercia rose to prominence as it was understandable by people north of the Humber and South of the Thames. This "Midlands Dialect" was to become the language of the Empire - leaving us behind as somewhat old fashioned "Quaint Northerners".


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: alex s
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 05:42 AM

Ashington and Bedlington were/are the centre of Pitmatic.

North of there starts to become much more Northumbrian, with the soft rolling "r" sound you don't hear on Tyneside (it supposedly comes from one of the Percys' speech impediment) It's a bit like the French r e.g. in "Robert"

The West End of Newcastle, amazingly as it's only a few streets, also has a recognisable accent - I once surprised a hostess at the Dover ferry terminal by telling her exactly where she came from (and she told me exactly where to go...)

Like Suibhne, I can hear big differences in accents in Lancashire in places just a few miles apart - Blackburn and Burnley for example.
Also the names for the humble bread roll change every few miles! - tea cake, bread bun, bap, batch etc


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 05:48 AM

Out in Newcastle with a southerner and another northerner, we once had occasion to order two "scons" and a "scohne" ....


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 05:49 AM

(To be clear, that's what we asked for. It was not three people each asking for a single item)


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Max Johnson
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 05:56 AM

Most of the differences in Northern accents (as opposed to North and South), are because after settlement by the Anglo-Saxons there was a later, not always peaceful settlement by the Norse. There was an even greater difference in language of course, and in the Dales (for example) folk in adjacent valleys separated by only a few miles use different words for the same thing. Place-names originated from the two different languages. Most of the North-West was, usually peacefully, invaded by Angles and not Saxons. The Norse arrived here late; not cross-country, but from Ireland and the Isle-of-Man. I've always thought it strange that Europe doesn't have a common language, let alone Yorkshire, Northumberland and Durham!


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 06:26 AM

"right up to Berwick (where you get a lot of Scots too, and bi-lingual road signs over the border which is absurd)."

I think you may be exaggerating a tad. The Scottish Borders Region (ie the old Roxburghshire, Selkirkshire, Peeblesshire and Berwickshire)does not in general have bi-lingual road signs like they have in Wales or in parts of the Highlands. What it has is bilingual sings at several of the border crossings only. Basically as well as saying welcome to Scotland etc in English it has it in Gaelic too. As you are entering Scotland and Gaelic is a Scottish language I can't see why that is absurd? Arguably the only slightly absurd thing is that if they are doing it for flavour (that is to make the traveller aware they are entering somewhere different) then they don't also have it in Scots.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 07:18 AM

I'm interested in language as a living thing rather than for cultural / heritage / historical reasons - and whilst I've no problem with that (in general) I recently spent a bewildering hour in a Wesh bi-lingual Morrisons (just west of Chester) trying to fathom the mentality of a supermarket reflecting multi-lingual diversity! Organic diversity and common pragmatic usage intrigues me, but it's about individuals primarily, and individuals determine culture rather than the other way round. I guess that's why I find the bi-lingual road signs over the border north of Berwick absurd, just as I would road signs in dialect. My grandmother had perfect RP but could speak Pitmatic with the best of them - or was it the other way round? Talk about bi-lingual, but she could also talk with thrushes, robins and blackbirds and could put Ronnie Ronalde to shame...

Pitmatic was spoken in the colliery villages of Northumberland and Durham - I think what you hear in Bedlington and Ashington is more akin to rural Northumbrian, though there's bound to be cross overs. Tommy Armstrong was from the Stanley area and as a kid it was something the elderly miners spoke in Cambois and Backworth. Like I say, it was worked upon and pefected with pride, much like RP & many hip dialects are used with pride by people today though I don't think Pitmatic is amongst them!

A lot of Geordies took up Kidda and Though But as a consequence of watching Whatever Happened to the Likely Lads, where James Bolam's native Mackem sarcasm is both hilarious and inspirational, as the best Mackem is - like Scouse, so much of it is about attitude and empowerment, though you don't get the same level of mawkishness in Sunderland as you do in Liverpool. You do get Puro though, and offal, at least you used to in childhood days before refridgeration where as a kid I might turn my nose up at breakfasts of luke-warm puro out of a polystyrene keep-fresh in the scullery and a tea of tripe and trotters. My stomach turns to think of it even now...


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 07:59 AM

Come to the Lewes Saturday Folk Club in the next few weeks and decide for yourself:

Tom McConville & David Newey, 12th. March

Alistair Anderson, 19th. & 20th. March (yes, really, because he's also directing a performance of Steel Skies on the Sunday night)

Barrie & Ingrid Temple, 2nd. April

The Lewes Royal Oak folk club has just had Jim Bainbridge and will be presenting Jez Lowe on Thursday 21st. April. I think this cluster of bookings may be evidence of some kind of seasonal migration.

Valmai (Lewes)


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 08:04 AM

Why Aye man!


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: alex s
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 08:37 AM

Wandering Minstrel - is that you, Tom McC?


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 08:46 AM

"I guess that's why I find the bi-lingual road signs over the border north of Berwick absurd, just as I would road signs in dialect."

I'm really not sure what you are referring to. I live in the area you are talking about and there are basically no bilingual road signs apart from at some of the border crossings themselves where the welcome to Scotland signs etc are displayed in Gaelic too. I still don't really get why you seem to have a problem with those? Apart from those - and in the Borders we're are only actually talking about two situations at Lamberton and Carter Bar - there is no bilingual signing in the area either in Gaelic or Scots.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Wheatman
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 09:10 AM

'avebeenawayfrom Chester le Street (known locally as Chesta) since 1972 but never lost the love of my Mid Durham dialect (pitmatic). The trouble is, every song I sing sounds as though it comes from the North East. I would say though, I am not and never been a Geordie even though The Crownsmen thought otherwise. The difference between Tyneside and Wearside is in my view, quite pronounced. Gan Canny (proceed with care and trepidation). Brian


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 10:15 AM

Sorry, Allan - maybe it is just a tourist thing on the border, like the pitwheel monuments erected by the old mining villages of Co. Durham to remind them of their heritage. Does Tradition only equate with Old Fashioned? The only thing to look forward to - the past. Actually, I don't think Quaking Houses gets many tourists these days, despite its prominence in the Stanley Green Corridor; not sure about Marley Hill though - and Chester-le-Street had a Saturday Market worthy of Tommy Armstrong's Stanley Market (though what the machine actually did maybe we'll never know) hopefully it still does - haven't been for years.

Since moving to Lancashire three years ago I've become more conscious of my Geordie roots - born in North Shields to a Mackem mother and a Northumbrian father, I was a fish largely indifferent of the water through which I swam. I've taken to singing a few more of the old songs & Border Ballads from the Minstrelsy (the old Northumbrian melody of Binnorie is one to die for) and Northern Bards etc. My favourite as a kid was always The Collier's Rant, which keeps getting older & older the more I look into it. I think the oldest date we have for it puts it around 1750! A common song in the NE both in Folk circles & out, though I see my wee version is still the only one on YouTube (HERE). Different language? You bet!

Anyone going to the Morpeth Gathering this year? We're doing a wee set of Border Ballads if anyone's interested, sharing the bill with Matt Seattle on Border Pipes.

And still no takers on The Seghill Ring? Well, according to legend Seghill only ever had the one Netty, the oaken orifice of which was thice-daily creosoted by the hasty honey-diggers for reasons of hygiene leaving the villagers indelibly stained.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 11:18 AM

aAl this duiscusion about changes of accent/dialect over very short distances remindes me of Harney Kershaw, the great Lancashire dialect poet. Once when asked how many Lancashire dialects there were, he replied "Four", quite perplexed at this the questioner said " Only four in the whole of Lancashire?". "Ee sorry lad I thowt thi meant in Rochdale"!


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,SID
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 11:24 AM

Thanks for pointing me towards your songs sir, interesting interlude in an otherwise mundane day. (And you putting the words up is invaluable!)


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 12:04 PM

I'll be at the Morpeth Gathering, Suibhne, in the usual place, but I'll see if I can take in Matt's and your event. Sounds good.

My kids were born to a Geordie father and a south-coast born mother (me)with Cirencester antecedents. When speaking to me as little 'uns they would refer to New CASTLE (long A) but to their dad as Newcassel.

Now I live in a village just north of Ashington (where pitmatic is alive and well) surrounded by mainly local neighbours who are either ex-pitmen or in a minority of families have Romany or traveller forebears.
The Ashington-born families speak with a different accent to those who've moved from more rural Northumberland, which is a softer speech, with a burr. A visit to the post office on pension day soon convinced me that Angle (which is what Northumbrian mainly is) is a separate language, and one to be treasured in all its own diversity.

The kids are all bi-lingual, too, speaking quite differently to adults in authority than they do to each other.

So noo aa "gan and seek" : aa divvent "go shopping". The bridleway at the bottom of the garden is "Jack's Lonnen".

I have friends on the E. side of Newcastle who speak differently to those in the western suburbs.

When the other half worked at Durham Uni he overheard one porter say to another: "Dost thoo not know tha should sign in" - which connects with another thread on the use of thy and thee. It still happens.

Relative to my village, I don't think any of the artistes mentioned have particularly pronounced accents, though they are recognizably North Eastern.

Paws


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Chris P
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 01:55 PM

Guest Eliza asks where the dividing line between Northern and Southern English is, which as is evident above, is not so easy to answer as there are many threads to the story. However, Nottingham and Derby are considered to have northern accents.
By aye='normal' I meant that it's not dialect, as there is probably no part of England that doesn't have some historical use of it.
Interesting mention above of Scouse in south west Lancashire. It was always assumed by us kids that it was so different from Mancunian because it was closer to Ireland, which when you think about it a bit is absurd, as almost nobody in the northern industrial areas doesn't have some Irish antecedents.
The answer dawned on me some years ago when I was in a Welsh-speaking shop in North Wales. The rhythm, lilt and accent of the spoken Welsh was very like Scouse. It seems to me that the bedrock of the accent in that area of Lancashire must be Welsh/British, likewise much of the West Midlands.
Romany is an Indo-European language of its own, and can be traced right across Europe even today.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 02:01 PM

I remember Lou Killen, in a Whitby interview, reminiscing about visits to source singers in Northumberland and the difficulty of understanding the local dialect!

Kitty


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 03:26 PM

Guest Chris P, on my visits to Liverpool, I detected as you did a similarity to the Welsh accent among the Scouse speech. But the Irish is easily explained by the enormous influx of Irish immigrants following the Potato Famine. Many many Liverpool surnames are Irish. On the 'divide' between northern and southern pronunciation, I notice that Lincolnshire people have a very slight northern touch to their vowel sounds, but here in Norfolk, it's definitely 'southern'.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 03:59 PM

I didn't think it was a separate language until two blokes from Prudhoe turned up to do ma in law's gas boiler! I was teurtally lost man.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 04:25 PM

Referring to Alan Conn's first comment snip< - ""What it has is bilingual sings at several of the border crossings only."" - >snip, I rather like the idea of singing in two languages, though both Geordie and Scots Gaelic are way beyond my meagre talent.

Don T


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: alex s
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 06:39 PM

Edthefolkie - a former chairman of the Magpies was known to all as The Turtle. When he asked why he was told: because you always say - "Kevin Keegan has my turtle support"


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 07:31 PM

Somebody mentioned the fact that the Geordie accent is different on baith sides of Newcassel! Whey man! It's even mair localised than that! When aah wez a bairn we lived in Hampshire Gardens, Holy Cross Waallsend and the people in the next street, Sussex Gardens, spoke a different dialect! If ye went roond the corner intiv Bede Crescent it wez different again! Aah remember me Mam gannin inte wor kitchen (it wez caalled a scullery, then) te mek a cup of tea and when she came back wi' the cups we cuddent understand a bloody word she wez sayin'


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 08:58 PM

Accent =/= dialect, though it is part of it. But you'll have to do a lot better than that to argue for separate language. "Phonetic" eye-dialect spellings only confuse the issue. If after a little exposure the speech is mutually comprehensible, then its dialect, I'd think. Those what allegedly can't understand likely lack the exposure.

Keep in mind that a lot of American English speakers will claim they can't understand English English (whatever dialect), but who is saying they are different languages?


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 10:04 PM

Great thread, folks! Reading and listening with great interest. Is Mark Knoplfer a Geordie? I ask because of his song "Why Aye, Man (sounds more like "Mawn")," which I love.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: C-flat
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 03:03 AM

Knopfler most certainly is a Geordie. As is Sting.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 04:52 AM

A Geordie goes into Greggs near closing time, his dismay at the near empty shelves as harsh as his hunger.

"Whit can a hev? Whit can a hev?" quoth the agitated customer to the lass behind the counter, who calmly surveys her remaining wares.

"Well, pet - ye can hev the cheese pasty or a meringue."

"Nah, yer reet - I'll hev the cheese pastie!"

Note to non Geordies, the joke here is in the homophone of or a maringue to or am I wrang (wrong) as pronounced in the Geprdie dialect. In any case the joke was current in Tyneside folk circles about thirty years ago (I suspect c/o George Welsh) and wasn't that funny back then either, unless George told it of course when he'd have us all rolling. There was a lesser one about Bounty chocolate bars along the lines of "It tastes of coconuts!" "Whey, it's bounty!" (bound tee (to)) - but the classic was "I'm not feeling too grand" which requires too much scene setting to be effective here.

*

Once upon a time you could stand in the queue at Greggs (in the Grainger Market) and hear four or five different words for stotties (yeasties, flatties, roundies, moonies and several more I can't recall) depending on what area of Newcastle they were from. Funny how Greggs make the perfect stottie and yet haven't taken it with them on their quest to put a shop on every British high street - especially when you can buy something called a Stotty from Asda in Blackpool. Not bad either, though the North West has its own treasures in the Yeasty White Half-baked Bread class - all of which have been discussed over on the Re-Imagined Village thread.

Does anyone know if the famous Gregg's Seconds Shop is still there? A popular feature of Newcastle's West End (Arthur's Hill) it once featured in Pravda as an illustration of how the English Proletariat were so poverty stricken they were forced to queue for yesterday's bread. Fact is, Gregg's stuff was always better the next day and even sweeter at half-price! Heaven sent for the penny-pinching early risers of Tyneside who'd rather spend their money on fags and beer.

*

Looking forward to Morpeth - note the singaround on the Friday night! Not just singers either - in previous years it's been an open session for musicians, poets, writers, storytellers and wrestlers... Come All Ye!


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: BobKnight
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 07:26 AM

Knopfler lived in Glasgow until he was around eight years old.

I noticed a while back that Geordies say "telt," as in "told," the same as us North-East Scots, and "bairns," too of course.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 07:46 AM

Naw Aa's not Tom (but I ken him fine and he's a canny lad, ye knaw) Just an aad folkie from Waalker me.
Ony road, if yer ever in wor fine city you only need to knaa te phrases, "Hoositganninatthematch?" and "gizabroonJack!" and you will be instantly at hyem in any company


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 08:13 AM

My parents too - one from Lincolnshire, one from Devon - would argue over the pronunciation of the letter a in words like bath and castle.

Wikipedia, the source of all knowledge, says; "The presence or absence of this [trap-bath] split is one of the most noticeable differences between different accents of English English. An isogloss runs across the Midlands from the Wash to the Welsh border, passing to the south of the cities of Birmingham and Leicester.

North of the isogloss, the vowel in most of the affected words is usually the same short-a as in cat; south of the isogloss, the vowel in the affected words is generally long. (Gupta 2005)"


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: alex s
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 09:29 AM

Gibb Sahib - it was a lighthearted question, not an argument....


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 09:46 AM

But to a speaker of Japanese it's a very different language indeed; in fact, my man in Tokyo who's fluent in English can't make out Geordie only to distinguish it from Scots. But then I've met Welsh speakers who've taken me for Welsh...


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 10:00 AM

American English speakers will claim they can't understand English English (whatever dialect ...

Probably the most important factor in making one's dialect understandable is slowing down. We slow down for the elderly, for little children, and the hard of hearing, and we can slow down for people from a distant place.

I watched a few of the BBC satires about northerners on YouTube. Most of the incomprehensibility of the northerners was achieved by ordering the actor to speak as fast as he possibly could. It's a cheap and simple technique, but it doesn't say much about language.

By the way, I was going to call them BBC comedies, but I changed it to 'satires' because they were too mean-spirited to be funny.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 10:56 AM

Speed is often a feature of the language, and the songs too. In my rendering of Collier's Rant linked to earlier I sing it very slow, compared to someone like Johnny Handle who brings the whole thing in around 2.30! Same when I sing Tommy armstrong songs I often get criticised for being too slow.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 11:29 AM

Language versus dialect. Hmmm... They are not the same

Take Irish dialects of the English language for example. They may be hard for RP speakers to understand but they are completely seperate from the Irish Language.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 05:32 PM

The peculiarity of Southerners to mispronounce the letter "a" would seem to start somewhere about the extreme southern border of civilisation - ie where Danelaw finished before Athelstan's Conquest (and some of us won't forget THAT in a hurry, never mind William The Bastard!)

Rant Over (but not Th eNorthumbrian Rant, which is a totally different beast - more like The Lambton Worm).


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 07:17 PM

it was a lighthearted question, not an argument....

Sure, Alex, I got that from your original post. :)

But some will always start to take it further, if they get the chance!

(...this coming from a guy who has claimed that the state of Connecticut has at least 6 different regional accents...)

Hey, what do they call a submarine sandwich in Geordie? :D


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 08:51 PM

"Sorry, Allan - maybe it is just a tourist thing on the border, like the pitwheel monuments erected by the old mining villages of Co. Durham to remind them of their heritage. Does Tradition only equate with Old Fashioned?"

I'm still having a bit trouble getting what you are saying. Gaelic isn't 'old fashioned' as such. It may be a minority language within Scotland now, spoken by a small percentage of the popualtion, but it is still a living language spoken within communities by people of all ages. Culturally it is of course much more significant as a fair part of Scottish traditional song etc is in Gaelic. So the signs at the border are yes, for people entering Scotland, to let them know that Gaelic is a part of Scottish culture. A 16 year old Gael in Stornoway s just as 'modern' as a 16 year old Glaswegian!


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Wheatman
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 02:25 AM

There is no R in Newcastle


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 02:51 AM

Last night at a singaround in Southampton I sang Sair Fyel'd Hinny. I think some of the people present would vote for it being a separate language ...


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 04:23 AM

Relional dialects are observable linguistic phenomenon; they are living, feral & non official, though their more perilous aspects (such as Pitmatic) have been collected and preserved by diligent folklorists & enthusiasts. For the purposes of language, and this discussion, then we're talking about everyday usage of everyday people - not folklorists & enthusiasts - thus I might wonder how you'd get on speaking Erse in Greggs in Berwick, much less speaking Welsh in that bi-lingual branch of Morrisons just west of Chester. Do Morrisons reflect other minority languages of the immigrant communities they serve elswhere? It makes perfect sense having Chinese signs in the shops in Chinatown, and Polish signs in Polish shops, but how many people crossing the border speak Erse anyway? And of those who can, how many can speak English too?

I suppose the main incongruity of Gaelic signs on the Scottish border is that they are a modern conceit, along with the cartoon thistle they hark back to something that never was, historically, culturally, missing the point somehow. Like having bi-lingual signs in a branch of a supermarket chain who always proudly display photographic blow-ups of how life used to be in the good old days.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 04:28 AM

Not to mention the cost:

Scottish Government to spend £26m on translating road signs into Gaelic (Jul 9 2010)


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 05:04 AM

I doubt that Gaelic was ever spoken in the Berwick region so if the signs around there are to be bilingual why not use Scots?

If I remember right Carter Bar has signs welcoming you to Scotland (from the south) and Northumberland (from the north) but none welcoming you to England.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 05:28 AM

Too right. And few signs in Traveller Cant wouldn't go amiss either.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 05:55 AM

Does Geordie (the language) include Makems (the people) as well Geordie (the people)?

And could we include environs like Morpeth (for instance?)

I have heard it said that dock workers and sailors in the docks can shout orders over the bulwarks without seeing the speaker. And the sailors may very well be Nordic (or even Scandanavian).

No is the answer to the OP. It is a dialect, much like lalland Scorrrts and Mummerset. But is is a canny dielect, mind - Mon.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 06:19 AM

I regularly use the Morrison's just west of Chester, and have heard Welsh being spoken, though not as much as in the Tesco's along the road.

As to Gaelic in the vicinity of Berwick, there is an apparently Gaelic name (Auchencrow) a few miles to the north, though Wikipedia gives a non-Gaelic etymology. At any rate, prior to the accession of Malcolm Canmore (Gaelic: big head) Gaelic was being spoken throughout Scotland and there are Gaelic place names to the south of Edinburgh.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 06:19 AM

Geordie is a Newcastle / North Tyne thing, though I've heard Jez Lowe calling himself a Geordie when playing away from home (Blackpool) which is fair enough at that distance. Even in Newcastle there are many variations. Geordie is an English dialect with relations to Norwegian & Scots (Marra, Hyem etc.) & English is a language defined by its regional / national diversity, though after three years in Lancashire I've stopped hearing the local brogue as being exotic, though none of it has entered by own speech. A few decades ago it was common in Newcastle to see cars with stickers in their back windows saying Divvent dunshus - wa Geordies, and didn't every home have a copy of Larn Yersel Geordie (which you can still buy in the Grainger Market apparantly) and tales are still told of the Geordie holiday maker getting on a plane in Greece and asking if it was grannin tae the Toon - just as the old man from Blyth visiting his daughter in South Shields for the first time announced to the ferry ticket collector that he was From England.

I've mentioned the long A in Plaster and Master which is uniquely Geordie (especially given the general practise of flattening vowels) but what of TRET instead of TREATED. I always get pulled up for that one. Is it current anywhere else?


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 07:01 AM

A lot of Northumbrian names have odd origins too - but do we reflect them in our road signs? Norse, Latin, French and God alone knows...


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: alex s
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 07:40 AM

Gibb Sahib - it's a Pease Puddin' Stottie!


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 10:41 AM

"thus I might wonder how you'd get on speaking Erse in Greggs in Berwick"

But again that isn't the point. When you are crossing the border at Lamberton or Carter Bar you aren't just moving into the Scottish Borders Region. You are moving into Scotland the country itself - hence the Gaelic signs at the border. It is a recognition of part of the nation's culture at the land entrance of the country. Elsewhere in the Borders Region there are no Gaelic signs etc. Why a couple of signs would be an issue for anyone still baffles me.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 10:53 AM

"I doubt that Gaelic was ever spoken in the Berwick region so if the signs around there are to be bilingual why not use Scots?"

Well Gaelic is of course spoken all over Scotland though speakers in the Borders tend to be few and far between and apart from learners are generally Highland incomers. Historically the area doesn't have much of a tradition of Gaelic 'possibly' limited to a few incoming Gaelic landowners in the early part of the last millenium. So you are right in that for the area the local dialect is a dialect of Scots and not Gaelic. Scots should have some recognition but at the entrance to the country you needn't exclude one to recognise the other.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 10:56 AM

tret instead of treated? Makes sense to me. We have *

sleep - slept
dream - dreamt
weep - wept
creep - crept
leap - leapt

Why not treat - tret?




*at least we have them in the American Midwest, where some of the most old-fashioned English of all is spoken.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:08 AM

"there is an apparently Gaelic name (Auchencrow)"

Nicolaisen in his "Placenames of Scotland" gives Auchencrow as a "potential Gaelic name". There are Gaelic names in the Borders of course but the significant fact about them is their rarity compared with other parts of Scotland. Plus they don't necessarily mean there was any 'significant' Gaelic speaking population there. For instance Bedrule near Jedburgh is thought to be named from a Galwegian heiress called Bethoc who married into a local family here. So names may sometimes say something about the landowner rather than the locals.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: alex s
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:32 AM

....meet - met


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:51 AM

As you say, Allan, place names don't necessarily reveal the language of the majority of the locals, but do give an indication that speakers of that language were found in that area.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 01:16 PM

Well yes I agree with you there. I don't think anyone sensible would say that there was never any Gaelic speakers in Berwickshire at all.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 01:52 PM

Cambois - pronounced Camus as in Scottish and Irish Gaelic is the placename of a coastal village near Blyth in Northumberland. Since it has a lengthy beach there seems little doubt about the Gaelic derivation yet it's at least 30 miles (south) from the current border as the crow flies.

My own village - Lynmouth, north of the above - is the mouth of the river Lyn/e, or from the Gaelic derivation "river river-mouth". Which merely goes to show that inhabitants of both flavours of Gaelic were in N'land at some stage prior to those Angles arriving.

Paws


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 03:01 PM

I was always told Cambois is French, which is hardly surprising given the French influence in the area (Delaval). But what about Boca Chica, eh?


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 03:39 PM

For the Gaelic Etymology of Cambois (etc):

The Gaelic Foundations of the Golden Age of Northumbria


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 05:19 PM

Actually, considering that many of the older religious centres were founded by Celtic monks, there were probably quite a lot of native Gaelic speakers in Northumbria prior to the Synod of Whitby.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 08:19 PM

"My own village - Lynmouth, north of the above - is the mouth of the river Lyn/e, or from the Gaelic derivation "river river-mouth"

MInd "Llyn" is also a P-Celtic word and (according to Godfrey Watson in his book 'Northumberland Place Names')the old Anglo-Saxon word "hlynn" means a torrent of any kind.

Just because something could be of Gaelic origin it doesn't mean it was. There is a Lynmouth in Devon too which presumably isn't derived from Gaelic. Why look for a Gaelic origin to the word when the local languages had the same/similar possible sources?


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Darowyn
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 04:28 AM

Maybe not Gaelic, but there is no reason why Devonians should not have hung on to a Brithonic language long enough to use 'lyn' in the same way that the Welsh use "llyn". The Cornish did, and they are only a few miles further west!
There is also 'Lindow' in Cheshire- the black lake of sacrificial drowning fame.
It is fascinating to me that many hills in the Peak District are called "Low". Arbor Low with it's stone circle, Shuttlingslow etc. Again,in Welsh, that would be 'llaw' - hill.
I thought it was very interesting when there was a genetic map of the UK on TV a couple of years ago which showed that around two thirds of the population of Britain are descended from the original hunter gatherers who crossed from mainland Europe before the flooding of the Channel and North Sea. It also pointed out that there was no way to tell the difference, genetically, between those who had arrived at that time and those who arrived later from the Low countries- i.e. Angles, Saxons, Jutes and Danes.
We are a bunch of mongrels and that's a fact.
I rejoice in that.
Cheers
Dave


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 05:09 AM

"Maybe not Gaelic, but there is no reason why Devonians should not have hung on to a Brithonic language long enough to use 'lyn' in the same way that the Welsh use "llyn". The Cornish did, and they are only a few miles further west!"

Quite so I totally agree! The area in question was originally Brittonic speaking then it was Anglian. There is no need for 'lyn' to be explained away by the presence of Gaelic speakers. Brittonic names are common enough in the Scottish Borders just up the road.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 06:20 AM

"I was always told Cambois is French, which is hardly surprising given the French influence in the area (Delaval)."

In his "Northumberland Place-Names" Godfrey Watson suggests that only two Brittonic names survive on the coast in that area. One being 'Ross' whilst the other is 'Cambois' which he claims is probably a Frenchified spelling corruption of the original Brittonic name. Who knows though I think one thing is pretty clear.

The existence of the names Cambois and Linmouth don't by any stretch of the imagination go to show that Gaels were in that area prior to the Angles arriving :-)


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,ChrisP
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 06:20 AM

eat = ate. This is pronounced 'et' up north, but even darn sarf it is 'ate'.
In parts of West Yorkshire a person could be said to have 'tret' themselves.
seat = set


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 06:23 AM

Chris P ~ You seem to think that we in the south all pronounce 'ate' as if it were '8'. Not so: it can be pronounced either way. I prefer 'et' myself.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 06:28 AM

"Which merely goes to show that inhabitants of both flavours of Gaelic were in N'land at some stage prior to those Angles arriving."

The Angles must surely have been there in the 500s and possibly even before. Are you really suggesting that Gaelic settlements were in Northumberland prior to this time? And what do you mean by both flavours of Gaelic? How would we know what difference there was, if there was any, between 5thC Irish and and the Gaelic spoken in Scottish Dalriada in the 5thC or 6thC? The older classical written Gaelic from Scotland and Ireland were identical - I think up until about the second half of the last millenium . Why would a Gaelic name in Northumberland (if it was a Gaelic name) prove the existence of (both) Scottish and Irish Gaelic speakers anyway? I don't follow the logic in that.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 08:25 AM

Et or 8? I'm not sure that this either a regional or a class distinction.

The standard pronunciation remains et. I suspect that the modern trend to pronounce words as they are spelt/spelled, or in some cases as they are printed, linked to greater literacy, has introduced the pronunciation 8. Both cases may therefore be a sign of higher standards of education.

Wonder is now confused with wander. Cuventry becomes Coventry, Cuvent Garden becomes Covent Garden. One is increasingly pronounced as wan rather than wun. Conduit and hovel are among those that have changed. Come, oven, love and dove, honey and money, and mother, brother and other have so far survived.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Longlankin
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 08:35 AM

As a Southerner (English) with Northern origins who has lived in Newcastle. Geordie is strictly the dialect as spoken around Newcastle, though it has many similarities with the dialects of Durham, Northumbria and the Scottish Borders. It is basically English with a "northern received pronunciation" plus additional words that are a hang-over from the Danish influence.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: alex s
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 10:30 AM

that girl at the session really opened a can of warms..... (Geordie joke)


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 01:44 PM

I say 8, and have no problem offing The Leg of a Mallard without straying too far from my native (Geordie) tongue.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 07:42 PM

noticed on Saturday night that Phil Cunningham used "thunk" for "thought"....


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 08:46 PM

Where the hell is Killen?????!!!


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 12:31 AM

...as in "Who'd a thunk it?" That's a time-honored, standard usage by now.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Glasgow
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 05:13 AM

The meringue joke was current in Glasgow at least 50 years ago. In fact all the Geordie jokes could be called Scottish as well. There is no language here, merely pronunciation. Lallans, however, is a Scottish language as it not only incorporates words from Scandinavia and Gaelic but has its roots in Old English.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 05:54 AM

"Who'd a thunk it?" That's a time-honored, standard usage by now.+++
...
But only a bit self-consciously facetiously, surely?

~M~


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Max Johnson
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:07 AM

Apologies to those who know all this, but where language is concerned, dates help.

As a rough guide, the Anglo-Saxon 'invasions' took place between around 450-600. There were several invasions by various Anglo-Saxon peoples, those in the North being mostly Angles. Most, but not all, were fairly peaceful. The indiginous Britons were basically Celts and the population was relatively small. They spoke a form, or forms of the Gaelic languages. Other than we're not sure because they had no writing. A great deal of information about the Celts comes from the Romans, who were not always objective. Fighting often (but not always) took place when the Norse arrived between 800 and 1000. This was because land was more valuable by now, and kingdoms, which are presumably harder to displace than Celtic tribes, had been established.

It can get confused, because in remote parts the the Anglo-Saxons hadn't arrived in very great numbers. There are parts where the Norse would have rubbed up against Celtic communities.
To confuse the issue even further, there were also Danish invasions between around 800-1000.
All these peoples brought different languages, and began to integrate fairly quickly after their arrivals, mostly in order to consolidate and protect land and property.   
It's interesting how Celtic and Roman Christianity existed side-by-side.

Anyway, HTH.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:13 AM

On mainland Britain there would be very little Gaelic spoken until the arrival of the Scots at roughly the same time as the Anglo-Saxons. The language of practically all the mainland inhabitants was a P-Celtic language whose main modern survivor is Welsh.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,DF
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:41 AM

I was taking the ferry from South Shields to Esbjerg (Denmark), years ago and the guy that was directing passengers was a true Geordie.
I had to ask him three times what he was saying - but a group of school kids from Denmark understood everything he said first time - apparently they thought he was speaking some kind of Danish dialect!


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 09:00 AM

"They spoke a form, or forms of the Gaelic languages."

I think we have to get clear what exactly we are saying here. Certainly in general when talking about Gaelic in Scotland what we mean are the various forms of Q-Celtic which are now Scottish Gaelic, Irish Gaelic and Manx Gaelic. We would not generally identify the forms of P-Celtic (ie Welsh, Cornish,Breton) as being Gaelic. Hence when I question the idea that Gaelic was on the Northumbrian coast prior to the arrival of the Anglians I am talking about Scottish or Irish Gaelic and not the native Britonnic P-Celtic language.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 09:08 AM

Interest article referenced up there. In the recent TV series on the history of Scotland I learned that Gaelic became the dominant language of Scotland for the same reasons, the new king had been fostered in the Gaelic kingdoms of the west.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 09:28 AM

"On mainland Britain there would be very little Gaelic spoken until the arrival of the Scots at roughly the same time as the Anglo-Saxons"

You are absolutely right. There is also some evidence of early Irish incursions into Wales but I can't imagine it would be huge numbers. By tradition the Gaels arrived in Scottish Dalriada from Ulster in about the year 500AD which is slightly earlier than Ida's arrival at Bamburgh but possibly later than other Anglian arrivals. Scottish historians seem to agree that Gaels must have already been there before King Fergus himself arrived and others suggest that Argyll could have long been Gaelic speaking - but even if that was so it is still just a wee corner of north-west Scotland we are talking about. The arrival of the Gaelic speaking monks into Northumbria didn't happen until nearer the mid-7thC and again I 'imagine' that would only have been a few individuals.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 09:44 AM

Looking at things the other way round, it should be remembered that Northumbria stretched from the Humber to the Forth. Have a browse of the map of the Scottish Lowlands and you will find quiet a few -ington and -ingston place names including a couple of Symingtons, my sScottish grandmother's maiden name. Most delightfully, just to the north east of Haddington on the A1 between Edinburgh and Dunbar, there is an Athelstaneford.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 10:02 AM

According to the map HERE in 800 it included The Fylde as well! Must account for the amount of Geordie I hear in Blackpool...


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 10:05 AM

Ever tried translating Dublin into English?


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 10:57 AM

Yes. It's Blackpool.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 11:29 AM

Yes, yes, we know - Blackpool as in Blackwaterside which even has its own sculpture on the Blackpool prom called Desire. Irish lads and Geordie lasses...

Northumbrian saint Cuthbert fetched up in nearby Lytham on his post-mortem travels; x marks the spot, traditionally anyway, though it's a fair haul to Durham even by car.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: BobKnight
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 11:55 AM

Athelstaneford, named after the English/Northumbrian King who got killed there around 832AD. So, not really indicitave of placename origins. The battle incidentally where the Scots army saw the clouds form a Saltire emblem in the sky an adopted it as their banner.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Darowyn
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 02:35 PM

It is worth mentioning that there are those who believe that large part of the inhabitants of Britain already spoke a Germanic language before the Roman Invasion.
I'm not convinced personally, I see too many remnants, even now, of Brithonic words, even in places which are predominantly Anglo Saxon or Norse.
Here's a site if you would like to follow this up:-

How old is English?

Cheers
Dave


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 03:31 PM

"Athelstaneford, named after the English/Northumbrian King who got killed there around 832AD."

The story and even the battle itslef (between the Picts led by King Angus and the Northumrians led by someone called Athelstan) are possibly just legend. I don't think there are any near contemporary records of the battle. The name of the village may have been created because of association with the legend - but I suppose it is also possible that the legend was created to explain the name. It is a story first mentioned in the early centuries of the second millenium. I don't know what the earliest mention of the name is.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 04:05 PM

Athelstaneford is seemingly first mentioned in the 12thC when a church was built there - so it dates from then or of course possibly earlier. The legend of the battle, or in fact any mention of the battle, is first mentioned by Walter Bower in the 15thC. Much of Bower's work is based on the earlier work by Fordun but Fordun doesn't mention Athelstaneford or the said battle. It certainly is possible that it is just a story trying to explain the name. Bower was born in Haddington also in east Lothian


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 04:49 PM

There is also some evidence of early Irish incursions into Wales but I can't imagine it would be huge numbers.

The Lleyn Peninsula in North Wales is apparently named after Laighin i.e. Leinster. They speak Welsh there now, or English if they're rich enough.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 11:04 AM

Whatever the origins of Athelstaneford (which I just thought was a delightful discovery for a village in Scotland) it doesn't alter the fact that Northumbria did extend to the Forth and that there are quite a few Anglo-Saxon place names in the eastern half of lowland Scotland. It's interesting that the names survived the conquest by Scotland, presumably because the population reamined the same and only the lordship changed.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:13 PM

Northumbria was basically the old British Kingdom of the Godddin (Votadini) and many of the old names survived the conquest by the Angles and later division between the Scottish and English Kingdoms, by which time the people were predominantly 'English' speaking.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:25 PM

Somewhat ironically, there's an article in today's Guardian reporting that an increasing number of linguists now fear German is under mortal danger from a torrent of anglicisms flooding into the nation's vocabulary!

Kitty


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:45 PM

"it doesn't alter the fact that Northumbria did extend to the Forth and that there are quite a few Anglo-Saxon place names in the eastern half of lowland Scotland. "

Not just quite a few. In the likes of Berwickshre and Roxburghshire the vast majority of names are probably of Anglian or at least partly Anglian origin.

There are other similar legendary stories about names. The Anglian Northumbrians later claimed that Edinburgh was named after King Edwin of Northumbria. Later still Scots chroniclers claimed it was named after King Aeden of Dalriada. When in fact it is just a translation of the original Brittonic "Din Eidyn".


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:51 PM

"Northumbria was basically the old British Kingdom of the Godddin (Votadini)"

I think you are right in that the northern half of Northumbria (Bernicia) possibly equated to that previous tribal land. The Northumbrian kingdom was made by the unifing of two smaller kingdoms. Bernicia was the northern part stretching from the Tyne (or thereabouts) to the Forth. The southern part was Deira which stretched down to the Humber.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:54 PM

The thing that amuses me is that Modern Welsh has replaced the Din with Caer which usually signifies Chester/cester in the English form and a Roman presence. As far as I know, no evidence has been found for the Romans within the Old Town - the only Roman forts are recent additions when the boundaries were substantially extended.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 03:49 PM

Up thread someone was discussing the 'Midlands' accent. There are quite a few, in the East Mids alone there is Derbyshire of the Derby area and East Staffs, "Awraught" being the greeting. The Leicester accent which ends words with er as 'o' as in olive ('Leicestoh'). There's a rural Leicestershire accent which has much in common with Northamptonshire rolled r's.

Nottingham urban has changed considerably in the last three decades, as have many city accents, adopting the Leicester 'o' ending among the young. It has an extensive vocabulary as do other areas (sucker-lolly, blackclocks-cockroaches) North Notts-Derbyshire coalfield is distinct from Nottm or Derby accents.
North Staffs pronounces look, book, cook, etc, and lewk, cewk, bewk. All before we get to a variety of West Midlands intonation - Black Country, Old Brum, New Brum, Shropshire, Malvern, etc, etc.

A big subject.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 04:00 PM

Incidentally, when Margaret Thatcher announced she was not 'frit' (afraid) she was distinctly positioning herself in a South Lincs - East Notts - North Leicestershire dialectic confluence.
I draw no conclusion about her political attitude coming with the terrain.


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 01:11 AM

"The right hon. Gentleman is afraid of an election is he? Oh, if I were going to cut and run I'd have gone after the Falklands. Afraid? Frightened? Frit? Couldn't take it? Couldn't stand it? Right now inflation is lower than it has been for thirteen years, a record the right hon. Gentleman couldn't begin to touch!"
Prime Minister's Question Time, House of Commons (19 April, 1983). ---The use of 'frit', an unusual Lincolnshire dialect abbreviation of 'frightened' which Mrs Thatcher evidently recalled from childhood, was missed by MPs in a noisy chamber but heard very distinctly on the audio feed from the chamber.--- Wikipedia
===
...so in fact she was accusing the Leader of the Oppo of being 'frit', rather than declaring herself not to be.

The word was also much current in Northampton, where I lived for 3 years during WWii. Good word ~ I still use it occasionally...

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 09:03 AM

ar howay man


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