Is Geordie a separate language?

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 09:03 AM

ar howay man

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 01:11 AM

"The right hon. Gentleman is afraid of an election is he? Oh, if I were going to cut and run I'd have gone after the Falklands. Afraid? Frightened? Frit? Couldn't take it? Couldn't stand it? Right now inflation is lower than it has been for thirteen years, a record the right hon. Gentleman couldn't begin to touch!"
Prime Minister's Question Time, House of Commons (19 April, 1983). ---The use of 'frit', an unusual Lincolnshire dialect abbreviation of 'frightened' which Mrs Thatcher evidently recalled from childhood, was missed by MPs in a noisy chamber but heard very distinctly on the audio feed from the chamber.--- Wikipedia
===
...so in fact she was accusing the Leader of the Oppo of being 'frit', rather than declaring herself not to be.

The word was also much current in Northampton, where I lived for 3 years during WWii. Good word ~ I still use it occasionally...

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 04:00 PM

Incidentally, when Margaret Thatcher announced she was not 'frit' (afraid) she was distinctly positioning herself in a South Lincs - East Notts - North Leicestershire dialectic confluence.
I draw no conclusion about her political attitude coming with the terrain.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 03:49 PM

Up thread someone was discussing the 'Midlands' accent. There are quite a few, in the East Mids alone there is Derbyshire of the Derby area and East Staffs, "Awraught" being the greeting. The Leicester accent which ends words with er as 'o' as in olive ('Leicestoh'). There's a rural Leicestershire accent which has much in common with Northamptonshire rolled r's.

Nottingham urban has changed considerably in the last three decades, as have many city accents, adopting the Leicester 'o' ending among the young. It has an extensive vocabulary as do other areas (sucker-lolly, blackclocks-cockroaches) North Notts-Derbyshire coalfield is distinct from Nottm or Derby accents.
North Staffs pronounces look, book, cook, etc, and lewk, cewk, bewk. All before we get to a variety of West Midlands intonation - Black Country, Old Brum, New Brum, Shropshire, Malvern, etc, etc.

A big subject.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:54 PM

The thing that amuses me is that Modern Welsh has replaced the Din with Caer which usually signifies Chester/cester in the English form and a Roman presence. As far as I know, no evidence has been found for the Romans within the Old Town - the only Roman forts are recent additions when the boundaries were substantially extended.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:51 PM

"Northumbria was basically the old British Kingdom of the Godddin (Votadini)"

I think you are right in that the northern half of Northumbria (Bernicia) possibly equated to that previous tribal land. The Northumbrian kingdom was made by the unifing of two smaller kingdoms. Bernicia was the northern part stretching from the Tyne (or thereabouts) to the Forth. The southern part was Deira which stretched down to the Humber.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:45 PM

"it doesn't alter the fact that Northumbria did extend to the Forth and that there are quite a few Anglo-Saxon place names in the eastern half of lowland Scotland. "

Not just quite a few. In the likes of Berwickshre and Roxburghshire the vast majority of names are probably of Anglian or at least partly Anglian origin.

There are other similar legendary stories about names. The Anglian Northumbrians later claimed that Edinburgh was named after King Edwin of Northumbria. Later still Scots chroniclers claimed it was named after King Aeden of Dalriada. When in fact it is just a translation of the original Brittonic "Din Eidyn".

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:25 PM

Somewhat ironically, there's an article in today's Guardian reporting that an increasing number of linguists now fear German is under mortal danger from a torrent of anglicisms flooding into the nation's vocabulary!

Kitty

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:13 PM

Northumbria was basically the old British Kingdom of the Godddin (Votadini) and many of the old names survived the conquest by the Angles and later division between the Scottish and English Kingdoms, by which time the people were predominantly 'English' speaking.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 11:04 AM

Whatever the origins of Athelstaneford (which I just thought was a delightful discovery for a village in Scotland) it doesn't alter the fact that Northumbria did extend to the Forth and that there are quite a few Anglo-Saxon place names in the eastern half of lowland Scotland. It's interesting that the names survived the conquest by Scotland, presumably because the population reamined the same and only the lordship changed.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 04:49 PM

There is also some evidence of early Irish incursions into Wales but I can't imagine it would be huge numbers.

The Lleyn Peninsula in North Wales is apparently named after Laighin i.e. Leinster. They speak Welsh there now, or English if they're rich enough.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 04:05 PM

Athelstaneford is seemingly first mentioned in the 12thC when a church was built there - so it dates from then or of course possibly earlier. The legend of the battle, or in fact any mention of the battle, is first mentioned by Walter Bower in the 15thC. Much of Bower's work is based on the earlier work by Fordun but Fordun doesn't mention Athelstaneford or the said battle. It certainly is possible that it is just a story trying to explain the name. Bower was born in Haddington also in east Lothian

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 03:31 PM

"Athelstaneford, named after the English/Northumbrian King who got killed there around 832AD."

The story and even the battle itslef (between the Picts led by King Angus and the Northumrians led by someone called Athelstan) are possibly just legend. I don't think there are any near contemporary records of the battle. The name of the village may have been created because of association with the legend - but I suppose it is also possible that the legend was created to explain the name. It is a story first mentioned in the early centuries of the second millenium. I don't know what the earliest mention of the name is.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Darowyn
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 02:35 PM

It is worth mentioning that there are those who believe that large part of the inhabitants of Britain already spoke a Germanic language before the Roman Invasion.
I'm not convinced personally, I see too many remnants, even now, of Brithonic words, even in places which are predominantly Anglo Saxon or Norse.
Here's a site if you would like to follow this up:-

How old is English?

Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: BobKnight
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 11:55 AM

Athelstaneford, named after the English/Northumbrian King who got killed there around 832AD. So, not really indicitave of placename origins. The battle incidentally where the Scots army saw the clouds form a Saltire emblem in the sky an adopted it as their banner.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 11:29 AM

Yes, yes, we know - Blackpool as in Blackwaterside which even has its own sculpture on the Blackpool prom called Desire. Irish lads and Geordie lasses...

Northumbrian saint Cuthbert fetched up in nearby Lytham on his post-mortem travels; x marks the spot, traditionally anyway, though it's a fair haul to Durham even by car.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 10:57 AM

Yes. It's Blackpool.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 10:05 AM

Ever tried translating Dublin into English?

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 10:02 AM

According to the map HERE in 800 it included The Fylde as well! Must account for the amount of Geordie I hear in Blackpool...

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 09:44 AM

Looking at things the other way round, it should be remembered that Northumbria stretched from the Humber to the Forth. Have a browse of the map of the Scottish Lowlands and you will find quiet a few -ington and -ingston place names including a couple of Symingtons, my sScottish grandmother's maiden name. Most delightfully, just to the north east of Haddington on the A1 between Edinburgh and Dunbar, there is an Athelstaneford.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 09:28 AM

"On mainland Britain there would be very little Gaelic spoken until the arrival of the Scots at roughly the same time as the Anglo-Saxons"

You are absolutely right. There is also some evidence of early Irish incursions into Wales but I can't imagine it would be huge numbers. By tradition the Gaels arrived in Scottish Dalriada from Ulster in about the year 500AD which is slightly earlier than Ida's arrival at Bamburgh but possibly later than other Anglian arrivals. Scottish historians seem to agree that Gaels must have already been there before King Fergus himself arrived and others suggest that Argyll could have long been Gaelic speaking - but even if that was so it is still just a wee corner of north-west Scotland we are talking about. The arrival of the Gaelic speaking monks into Northumbria didn't happen until nearer the mid-7thC and again I 'imagine' that would only have been a few individuals.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 09:08 AM

Interest article referenced up there. In the recent TV series on the history of Scotland I learned that Gaelic became the dominant language of Scotland for the same reasons, the new king had been fostered in the Gaelic kingdoms of the west.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 09:00 AM

"They spoke a form, or forms of the Gaelic languages."

I think we have to get clear what exactly we are saying here. Certainly in general when talking about Gaelic in Scotland what we mean are the various forms of Q-Celtic which are now Scottish Gaelic, Irish Gaelic and Manx Gaelic. We would not generally identify the forms of P-Celtic (ie Welsh, Cornish,Breton) as being Gaelic. Hence when I question the idea that Gaelic was on the Northumbrian coast prior to the arrival of the Anglians I am talking about Scottish or Irish Gaelic and not the native Britonnic P-Celtic language.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,DF
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:41 AM

I was taking the ferry from South Shields to Esbjerg (Denmark), years ago and the guy that was directing passengers was a true Geordie.
I had to ask him three times what he was saying - but a group of school kids from Denmark understood everything he said first time - apparently they thought he was speaking some kind of Danish dialect!

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:13 AM

On mainland Britain there would be very little Gaelic spoken until the arrival of the Scots at roughly the same time as the Anglo-Saxons. The language of practically all the mainland inhabitants was a P-Celtic language whose main modern survivor is Welsh.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Max Johnson
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:07 AM

Apologies to those who know all this, but where language is concerned, dates help.

As a rough guide, the Anglo-Saxon 'invasions' took place between around 450-600. There were several invasions by various Anglo-Saxon peoples, those in the North being mostly Angles. Most, but not all, were fairly peaceful. The indiginous Britons were basically Celts and the population was relatively small. They spoke a form, or forms of the Gaelic languages. Other than we're not sure because they had no writing. A great deal of information about the Celts comes from the Romans, who were not always objective. Fighting often (but not always) took place when the Norse arrived between 800 and 1000. This was because land was more valuable by now, and kingdoms, which are presumably harder to displace than Celtic tribes, had been established.

It can get confused, because in remote parts the the Anglo-Saxons hadn't arrived in very great numbers. There are parts where the Norse would have rubbed up against Celtic communities.
To confuse the issue even further, there were also Danish invasions between around 800-1000.
All these peoples brought different languages, and began to integrate fairly quickly after their arrivals, mostly in order to consolidate and protect land and property.   
It's interesting how Celtic and Roman Christianity existed side-by-side.

Anyway, HTH.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 05:54 AM

"Who'd a thunk it?" That's a time-honored, standard usage by now.+++
...
But only a bit self-consciously facetiously, surely?

~M~

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Glasgow
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 05:13 AM

The meringue joke was current in Glasgow at least 50 years ago. In fact all the Geordie jokes could be called Scottish as well. There is no language here, merely pronunciation. Lallans, however, is a Scottish language as it not only incorporates words from Scandinavia and Gaelic but has its roots in Old English.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 12:31 AM

...as in "Who'd a thunk it?" That's a time-honored, standard usage by now.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 08:46 PM

Where the hell is Killen?????!!!

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 07:42 PM

noticed on Saturday night that Phil Cunningham used "thunk" for "thought"....

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 01:44 PM

I say 8, and have no problem offing The Leg of a Mallard without straying too far from my native (Geordie) tongue.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: alex s
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 10:30 AM

that girl at the session really opened a can of warms..... (Geordie joke)

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Longlankin
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 08:35 AM

As a Southerner (English) with Northern origins who has lived in Newcastle. Geordie is strictly the dialect as spoken around Newcastle, though it has many similarities with the dialects of Durham, Northumbria and the Scottish Borders. It is basically English with a "northern received pronunciation" plus additional words that are a hang-over from the Danish influence.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 08:25 AM

Et or 8? I'm not sure that this either a regional or a class distinction.

The standard pronunciation remains et. I suspect that the modern trend to pronounce words as they are spelt/spelled, or in some cases as they are printed, linked to greater literacy, has introduced the pronunciation 8. Both cases may therefore be a sign of higher standards of education.

Wonder is now confused with wander. Cuventry becomes Coventry, Cuvent Garden becomes Covent Garden. One is increasingly pronounced as wan rather than wun. Conduit and hovel are among those that have changed. Come, oven, love and dove, honey and money, and mother, brother and other have so far survived.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 06:28 AM

"Which merely goes to show that inhabitants of both flavours of Gaelic were in N'land at some stage prior to those Angles arriving."

The Angles must surely have been there in the 500s and possibly even before. Are you really suggesting that Gaelic settlements were in Northumberland prior to this time? And what do you mean by both flavours of Gaelic? How would we know what difference there was, if there was any, between 5thC Irish and and the Gaelic spoken in Scottish Dalriada in the 5thC or 6thC? The older classical written Gaelic from Scotland and Ireland were identical - I think up until about the second half of the last millenium . Why would a Gaelic name in Northumberland (if it was a Gaelic name) prove the existence of (both) Scottish and Irish Gaelic speakers anyway? I don't follow the logic in that.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 06:23 AM

Chris P ~ You seem to think that we in the south all pronounce 'ate' as if it were '8'. Not so: it can be pronounced either way. I prefer 'et' myself.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,ChrisP
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 06:20 AM

eat = ate. This is pronounced 'et' up north, but even darn sarf it is 'ate'.
In parts of West Yorkshire a person could be said to have 'tret' themselves.
seat = set

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 06:20 AM

"I was always told Cambois is French, which is hardly surprising given the French influence in the area (Delaval)."

In his "Northumberland Place-Names" Godfrey Watson suggests that only two Brittonic names survive on the coast in that area. One being 'Ross' whilst the other is 'Cambois' which he claims is probably a Frenchified spelling corruption of the original Brittonic name. Who knows though I think one thing is pretty clear.

The existence of the names Cambois and Linmouth don't by any stretch of the imagination go to show that Gaels were in that area prior to the Angles arriving :-)

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 05:09 AM

"Maybe not Gaelic, but there is no reason why Devonians should not have hung on to a Brithonic language long enough to use 'lyn' in the same way that the Welsh use "llyn". The Cornish did, and they are only a few miles further west!"

Quite so I totally agree! The area in question was originally Brittonic speaking then it was Anglian. There is no need for 'lyn' to be explained away by the presence of Gaelic speakers. Brittonic names are common enough in the Scottish Borders just up the road.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Darowyn
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 04:28 AM

Maybe not Gaelic, but there is no reason why Devonians should not have hung on to a Brithonic language long enough to use 'lyn' in the same way that the Welsh use "llyn". The Cornish did, and they are only a few miles further west!
There is also 'Lindow' in Cheshire- the black lake of sacrificial drowning fame.
It is fascinating to me that many hills in the Peak District are called "Low". Arbor Low with it's stone circle, Shuttlingslow etc. Again,in Welsh, that would be 'llaw' - hill.
I thought it was very interesting when there was a genetic map of the UK on TV a couple of years ago which showed that around two thirds of the population of Britain are descended from the original hunter gatherers who crossed from mainland Europe before the flooding of the Channel and North Sea. It also pointed out that there was no way to tell the difference, genetically, between those who had arrived at that time and those who arrived later from the Low countries- i.e. Angles, Saxons, Jutes and Danes.
We are a bunch of mongrels and that's a fact.
I rejoice in that.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 08:19 PM

"My own village - Lynmouth, north of the above - is the mouth of the river Lyn/e, or from the Gaelic derivation "river river-mouth"

MInd "Llyn" is also a P-Celtic word and (according to Godfrey Watson in his book 'Northumberland Place Names')the old Anglo-Saxon word "hlynn" means a torrent of any kind.

Just because something could be of Gaelic origin it doesn't mean it was. There is a Lynmouth in Devon too which presumably isn't derived from Gaelic. Why look for a Gaelic origin to the word when the local languages had the same/similar possible sources?

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 05:19 PM

Actually, considering that many of the older religious centres were founded by Celtic monks, there were probably quite a lot of native Gaelic speakers in Northumbria prior to the Synod of Whitby.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 03:39 PM

For the Gaelic Etymology of Cambois (etc):

The Gaelic Foundations of the Golden Age of Northumbria

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 03:01 PM

I was always told Cambois is French, which is hardly surprising given the French influence in the area (Delaval). But what about Boca Chica, eh?

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 01:52 PM

Cambois - pronounced Camus as in Scottish and Irish Gaelic is the placename of a coastal village near Blyth in Northumberland. Since it has a lengthy beach there seems little doubt about the Gaelic derivation yet it's at least 30 miles (south) from the current border as the crow flies.

My own village - Lynmouth, north of the above - is the mouth of the river Lyn/e, or from the Gaelic derivation "river river-mouth". Which merely goes to show that inhabitants of both flavours of Gaelic were in N'land at some stage prior to those Angles arriving.

Paws

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 01:16 PM

Well yes I agree with you there. I don't think anyone sensible would say that there was never any Gaelic speakers in Berwickshire at all.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:51 AM

As you say, Allan, place names don't necessarily reveal the language of the majority of the locals, but do give an indication that speakers of that language were found in that area.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: alex s
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:32 AM

....meet - met

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:08 AM

"there is an apparently Gaelic name (Auchencrow)"

Nicolaisen in his "Placenames of Scotland" gives Auchencrow as a "potential Gaelic name". There are Gaelic names in the Borders of course but the significant fact about them is their rarity compared with other parts of Scotland. Plus they don't necessarily mean there was any 'significant' Gaelic speaking population there. For instance Bedrule near Jedburgh is thought to be named from a Galwegian heiress called Bethoc who married into a local family here. So names may sometimes say something about the landowner rather than the locals.