Is Geordie a separate language?

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 09:44 AM

Looking at things the other way round, it should be remembered that Northumbria stretched from the Humber to the Forth. Have a browse of the map of the Scottish Lowlands and you will find quiet a few -ington and -ingston place names including a couple of Symingtons, my sScottish grandmother's maiden name. Most delightfully, just to the north east of Haddington on the A1 between Edinburgh and Dunbar, there is an Athelstaneford.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 10:02 AM

According to the map HERE in 800 it included The Fylde as well! Must account for the amount of Geordie I hear in Blackpool...

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 10:05 AM

Ever tried translating Dublin into English?

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 10:57 AM

Yes. It's Blackpool.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 11:29 AM

Yes, yes, we know - Blackpool as in Blackwaterside which even has its own sculpture on the Blackpool prom called Desire. Irish lads and Geordie lasses...

Northumbrian saint Cuthbert fetched up in nearby Lytham on his post-mortem travels; x marks the spot, traditionally anyway, though it's a fair haul to Durham even by car.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: BobKnight
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 11:55 AM

Athelstaneford, named after the English/Northumbrian King who got killed there around 832AD. So, not really indicitave of placename origins. The battle incidentally where the Scots army saw the clouds form a Saltire emblem in the sky an adopted it as their banner.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Darowyn
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 02:35 PM

It is worth mentioning that there are those who believe that large part of the inhabitants of Britain already spoke a Germanic language before the Roman Invasion.
I'm not convinced personally, I see too many remnants, even now, of Brithonic words, even in places which are predominantly Anglo Saxon or Norse.
Here's a site if you would like to follow this up:-

How old is English?

Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 03:31 PM

"Athelstaneford, named after the English/Northumbrian King who got killed there around 832AD."

The story and even the battle itslef (between the Picts led by King Angus and the Northumrians led by someone called Athelstan) are possibly just legend. I don't think there are any near contemporary records of the battle. The name of the village may have been created because of association with the legend - but I suppose it is also possible that the legend was created to explain the name. It is a story first mentioned in the early centuries of the second millenium. I don't know what the earliest mention of the name is.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 04:05 PM

Athelstaneford is seemingly first mentioned in the 12thC when a church was built there - so it dates from then or of course possibly earlier. The legend of the battle, or in fact any mention of the battle, is first mentioned by Walter Bower in the 15thC. Much of Bower's work is based on the earlier work by Fordun but Fordun doesn't mention Athelstaneford or the said battle. It certainly is possible that it is just a story trying to explain the name. Bower was born in Haddington also in east Lothian

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 04:49 PM

There is also some evidence of early Irish incursions into Wales but I can't imagine it would be huge numbers.

The Lleyn Peninsula in North Wales is apparently named after Laighin i.e. Leinster. They speak Welsh there now, or English if they're rich enough.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 11:04 AM

Whatever the origins of Athelstaneford (which I just thought was a delightful discovery for a village in Scotland) it doesn't alter the fact that Northumbria did extend to the Forth and that there are quite a few Anglo-Saxon place names in the eastern half of lowland Scotland. It's interesting that the names survived the conquest by Scotland, presumably because the population reamined the same and only the lordship changed.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:13 PM

Northumbria was basically the old British Kingdom of the Godddin (Votadini) and many of the old names survived the conquest by the Angles and later division between the Scottish and English Kingdoms, by which time the people were predominantly 'English' speaking.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:25 PM

Somewhat ironically, there's an article in today's Guardian reporting that an increasing number of linguists now fear German is under mortal danger from a torrent of anglicisms flooding into the nation's vocabulary!

Kitty

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:45 PM

"it doesn't alter the fact that Northumbria did extend to the Forth and that there are quite a few Anglo-Saxon place names in the eastern half of lowland Scotland. "

Not just quite a few. In the likes of Berwickshre and Roxburghshire the vast majority of names are probably of Anglian or at least partly Anglian origin.

There are other similar legendary stories about names. The Anglian Northumbrians later claimed that Edinburgh was named after King Edwin of Northumbria. Later still Scots chroniclers claimed it was named after King Aeden of Dalriada. When in fact it is just a translation of the original Brittonic "Din Eidyn".

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:51 PM

"Northumbria was basically the old British Kingdom of the Godddin (Votadini)"

I think you are right in that the northern half of Northumbria (Bernicia) possibly equated to that previous tribal land. The Northumbrian kingdom was made by the unifing of two smaller kingdoms. Bernicia was the northern part stretching from the Tyne (or thereabouts) to the Forth. The southern part was Deira which stretched down to the Humber.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:54 PM

The thing that amuses me is that Modern Welsh has replaced the Din with Caer which usually signifies Chester/cester in the English form and a Roman presence. As far as I know, no evidence has been found for the Romans within the Old Town - the only Roman forts are recent additions when the boundaries were substantially extended.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 03:49 PM

Up thread someone was discussing the 'Midlands' accent. There are quite a few, in the East Mids alone there is Derbyshire of the Derby area and East Staffs, "Awraught" being the greeting. The Leicester accent which ends words with er as 'o' as in olive ('Leicestoh'). There's a rural Leicestershire accent which has much in common with Northamptonshire rolled r's.

Nottingham urban has changed considerably in the last three decades, as have many city accents, adopting the Leicester 'o' ending among the young. It has an extensive vocabulary as do other areas (sucker-lolly, blackclocks-cockroaches) North Notts-Derbyshire coalfield is distinct from Nottm or Derby accents.
North Staffs pronounces look, book, cook, etc, and lewk, cewk, bewk. All before we get to a variety of West Midlands intonation - Black Country, Old Brum, New Brum, Shropshire, Malvern, etc, etc.

A big subject.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 04:00 PM

Incidentally, when Margaret Thatcher announced she was not 'frit' (afraid) she was distinctly positioning herself in a South Lincs - East Notts - North Leicestershire dialectic confluence.
I draw no conclusion about her political attitude coming with the terrain.

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 01:11 AM

"The right hon. Gentleman is afraid of an election is he? Oh, if I were going to cut and run I'd have gone after the Falklands. Afraid? Frightened? Frit? Couldn't take it? Couldn't stand it? Right now inflation is lower than it has been for thirteen years, a record the right hon. Gentleman couldn't begin to touch!"
Prime Minister's Question Time, House of Commons (19 April, 1983). ---The use of 'frit', an unusual Lincolnshire dialect abbreviation of 'frightened' which Mrs Thatcher evidently recalled from childhood, was missed by MPs in a noisy chamber but heard very distinctly on the audio feed from the chamber.--- Wikipedia
===
...so in fact she was accusing the Leader of the Oppo of being 'frit', rather than declaring herself not to be.

The word was also much current in Northampton, where I lived for 3 years during WWii. Good word ~ I still use it occasionally...

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Is Geordie a separate language?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 09:03 AM

ar howay man