BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 08:17 PM

San Onofre- Charley, I mistakenly wrote 50 feet (height of the ground surface above sea level) instead of 25 feet. Sorry about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 03:54 PM

Q-

Where did you find the reference to the "50-foot" tsunami wall for the San Onofre nuclear plant? I've only found references to a 25-foot tsunami wall such as in this Los Angeles Times article:

"Operators of the concrete-domed San Onofre nuclear plant Monday were trying to reassure jittery Southern California residents that the nuclear disaster unfolding in Japan won't happen here.

The 84-acre generating station in the northern corner of San Diego County is built to withstand a magnitude 7.0 earthquake, said Gil Alexander, a spokesman for the generation station's operator, Southern California Edison. That is greater than the 6.5 shaker that scientists predicted could strike the plant before it was built 42 years ago, he said. But it's less than the 8.9 quake that hit Japan last week.

A 25-foot-high 'tsunami wall' of reinforced concete was also erected between the plant and the adjacent ocean, a height based on scientists' best estimates of the potential threat, he said. "

It would be more reassuring if there were such a wall.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 03:48 PM

A tremor, magnitude 7.0., cut off power and halted pumping of water at Fukushima 1, 2 and 3 for about 50 minutes.

Residents of some municipalities outside the evacuation zone (20-km) in Fukushima Prefecture will be "instructed to leave" in about a month (parts of Minamisoma and other towns).
[One would assume that the people would have reached their radition limits by then].

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 03:46 PM

Lead, follow or get out of the way.

http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2011/04/11/1962797/japanese-perplexed-by-slow-quake.html

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 02:30 PM

California- two plants
Diablo Canyon, on a bluff 85 feet above sea level, 26 years old.

San Onofre, 50 feet above sea level, with a 50 foot tsunami wall, 42 years old.
They seem safe from tsunami, but aging components may cause break-down.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 02:28 PM

I was an (uneducated) advocate of nuclear power as an engineering student in the 70s. I attended a lecture given by (I am straining my brain a bit remembering) Dr. Stanton Friedman and he went a tad too far on the safety precautions when he said that the shear cost of these plants ensured that they were designed to be safe.

When my turn in Q&A came, I referred to his safety statement and asked if he actually believed that was a good arguement. "Yes." and he talked briefly. Again, I found it silly. My follow-up was,"How much did the Ocean Ranger (an offshore oil rig) cost before it sank and killed all those Newfies?"

I was severely reprimanded after the lecture by the Dean of Graduate Studies in front of a number of my professor and peers. Not for my "rebuttal" but for my flippancy and my disrespect.

I called in to a radio talk show airing the good doctor the next day and made the same point but much more mannerly.

Too bad I really haven't learned to hold my tongue more even after many such instances. >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 01:57 PM

Q-

Thanks for the update on turning Plutonium into nuclear fuel in the States.

Here's some interesting quotes from the Japanese with regard to the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex in the aftermath of Monday's 7.0 aftershock:

"Hidehiko Nishiyama, a spokesman for the nuclear regulatory body (in Japan), gave assurances that there are backup vehicle-mounted power sources and extra pumps to keep injecting water into the reactors even in the case external power source is lost.

But he admitted that no preparation has been made in the event the plant, already seriously damaged due to hydrogen explosions and other factors, was engulfed in giant tsunami waves again, and that it may be difficult to think of any efficient preventive measure."

Clearly the Japanese need to continue pondering what to do next with regard to further tsunamis, even if such an event is challenging to think about.

The same could be said for power plant officials and engineers with the two nuclear plants on the California coast.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 01:35 PM

MOX fuel in the United States-
One of the Fukushima reactors (No. 3) used MOX fuel from the Areva plant in France. Areva is an international concern, headquartered in France, with some 50,000 employees worldwide.

In the U. S. it is combined with the Shaw Group, into Shaw Areva MOX Services.
In South Carolina, at the Savannah River site, it is building a plant to blend weapons-grade plutonium with uranium to form the fuel mixed oxide, or MOX. Costs of the plant so far are $5 billion, 2000 workers are at the site.
It has been described as a 'swords into plowshares' program and is supported by the Obama administration. The U. S. has 43 tons of surplus plutonium.

So far, the government hasn't found a customer [why has the French plant successfully sold MOX not only to Japan but other Asian countries for reactors?].
The Tennessee Valley Authority might use some of the fuel in its reactors.

The plant may be stopped; Edwin Lyman of Union of Concerned Scientists calls it a "plant to nowhere." That would leave the U. S. without a way to dispose of its surplus plutonium.

Hearings are scheduled. It is possible that the site could become just a dumping ground.
Health risks, plus the possible spread of nuclear weapons to new countries, are among the drawbacks cited by legislators and regulators.

New York Times, article "New Doubts about Turning Plutonium Into a Fuel," Jo Becker and William J. Broad, April 10, 2011.

Notes-
-Areva also is a leader in wind-power installations.

MOX may become an obsolete fuel, as new designs for reactors are already being put into production.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 07:47 AM

It's still too early to assess the impact but I agree that the initial reports are positive stating that power was only disrupted for about an hour.

Japan certainly deserves a reprieve from further earthquakes.

My niece was planning to revisit friends in Japan this month and now she is seriously pondering what to do. I've been urging her to reschedule her flight for next year.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 06:57 AM

Òther news outlets are now quoting TEPCO saying there are 'no irregularities' at Fukishima 1 following the latest quake.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 06:44 AM

First news after this the new shock that hit Fukushima prefecture earlier today (7.1. or 7.7 magnitude depending on the source) is that power to reactors 1,2 and 3 at Fukushima 1 is down. Firetrucks will be deployed later to supply water to cool the reactors.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:23 PM

Q-

Thanks for focusing on another dimension of living with nuclear power in the real world.

Japan is not unique in its nuclear transient labor policy. Our nuclear plants in the States have been doing the same kind of thing for years. When they are in their re-fueling cycle they also hire 100's of temp workers to do the dirty work, cycling them in and out when they exceed their annual dosage of radiation but most likely not checking to see what those same workers have been exposed to in their previous cycles at other plants.

It's not right and some day in the future the damage will be readily assessed.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 02:03 PM

Byline on labor article is Hiroko Tabuchi, published April 9, 2011.

It is doubtful that the article would be accepted by major media in Japan.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 01:59 PM

Interesting and disturbing article in the New York Times today.
Japan has a two-tier labor system.
Employees of major companies are well-paid, are almost guaranteed long term employment, and mostly are highly educated, many specialists. They make up only about 20 per cent of the labor used by companies such as TEPCO.
The other 80 percent or workers are hired on contract, no job security, and none of the protection and perks of the top 20 percent.

"Day Laborers Braved Radiation for a Temporary Job"

"........thousands of untrained, itinerant, temporary laborers who handle the bulk of the dangerous work at nuclear power plants here (Japan) and in other countries, lured by the higher wages offered for working with radiation. Collectively, these contractors were exposed to levels of radiation about 16 times as high as the levels faced by Tokyo Electric Power Co. employees last year, according to Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency, which regulates the industry. These workers remain vital to efforts to contain the nuclear crisis at the Fukushima nuclear plants."
"They are emblematic of Japan's two-tiered work force, with an elite class of highly paid employees at top companies and a subclass of laborers who work for less pay, have less job security and receive fewer benefits. Such labor practices have both endangered the health of these workers and undermined safety at Japan's 55 nuclear reactor, critics charge."
"Of roughly 83,000 workers at Japan's 18 commercial nuclear power plants, 88 percent were contract workers in the year that ended in March, 2010, the nuclear agency said. At the Fukushima Daiichi plant, 89 percent of the 10,303 workers during that period were contractors."
Interviews paint a bleak picture of workers battling heat cleaning off radiation from reactor drywells and spent-fuel pools using mops and rags, clearing the way for TEPCO employees and inspectors, and filling drums with contaminated waste.
Wages fluctuate. One was paid $350 for two hours work at Fukushima and others speak of wages up to $1000/day. TEPCO refuses to discuss the contract workers and how many have been exposed to radiation.

There are attempts to form unions. The company attitudes are reinforced by those of the average Japanese, where a seldom-discussed class system exists. Moreover, foreigners such as the Koreans and southeast Asians are subjected to discrimination.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 01:18 PM

Add to gnu posts- estimates of stabilization and decommissioning of Fukushima range up to 30 years. Hitachi claims it can do it in ten, but others don't think so.
As noted by gnu, getting through debris and making new connections can't be done overnight.

The Wikipedia write-ups on the Japanese reactors, esp. Fukushima, are informative and up-to-date relative to most summaries I have found. Japan Times has had a number of good articles.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 12:32 PM

Hahahahaa.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 12:10 PM

Nope, the tsunami protection wall was more like 20 feet high, completely overwhelmed:

"By regulation, the Daiichi plant was fully prepared for a tsunami of up to 5.7 metres. At Daini, ten kilometres along the coast, the design basis was 5.2 metres."

I was trying to harvest this info from earlier postings on this thread but finally gave up and did a search from one of the references on Wikipedia for the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex.

The history and education embedded in this thread is an extraordinary record. The roaches who inherit the earth will be much amused when they become literate.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 11:37 AM

Gnu-

Interesting video of the tsunami hitting the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex, evidently reaching as high as 15 meters (about 45 feet). The report doesn't mention how high the tsunami protection wall was; I'm thinking it was about 10 meters high.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 07:52 AM

15m waves hit the nuke on March 11...

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/09_30.html

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 07:48 AM

Revised estimate...

NHK...

Work to dispose of highly radioactive water at the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant is not proceeding smoothly as more time is needed for preparations.

Heavily contaminated water in turbine buildings and a concrete tunnel is hampering work to restore cooling functions in the troubled reactors. The total amount of water in question is estimated at more than 50,000 tons.

The plant's operator, Tokyo Electric Power Company, plans to transfer the highly radioactive water to a nuclear waste processing facility and turbine condensers.

The utility firm is now working to lay hoses between the turbine buildings and the facility.

Holes have already been bored in the walls of the buildings, but work to install the hoses has yet to begin.

In addition, the waste disposal facility needs to be closely checked before the procedure can begin.

Meanwhile, the level of highly radioactive water filling the concrete tunnel of the No.2 reactor had reached 92 centimeters below the ground's surface as of Sunday morning. That is a rise of 12 centimeters since the leakage of the water into the sea was stopped on Wednesday.

Tokyo Electric plans to start moving the water in the tunnel into the reactor's condenser as early as Sunday.

Sunday, April 10, 2011 07:30 +0900 (JST)

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 06:59 PM

Onagawa reactors, north of Fukushima, have had problems- they are typical of those on all of the reactors.
Pipes connecting reactor and spent fuel pool with water source seems to be a recurring problem.
Onagawa 1. Online 1984, shut down as result of a test in 2006. {Problem not specified. Returned online date?]

Onagawa 2. Online 1995.
Pipe leak in 2006 due to debris damage.
Difficulties with ressure control, July 2006
METI and NISA determined that performance not satisfactory.
[How and why? Corrective actions?]

Onagawa 3. Online 2002
Reactor shut down because of pipe integrity concerns, July 2006.
Reactor restarted after repairs, November 2006
Reactor shut down after fire and damage to turbines, March 2011 (Tohoku earthquake).

Backup diesel generators damaged in 2005 Miyagi earthquake.
Fire in turbine section following 2011 Tohoku quake.
Radiation levels 21microsieverts/hour and emergency declared, but returned to normal.
Water leaks reported from spent fuel pools after April 7 aftershock.
Two of three external power lines damaged by aftershock April 7, but cooling maintained with 3rd line. [Mainichi Press. Another newspaper said 3 of 4 lines knocked out- Yomiuri Press].

See Wikipedia entry on Onagawa plant for further details. I found little further information.
The three units remain in cold shutdown.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 06:22 PM

I read they were still standing and operating in Japan after the tsunami and earthquake. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 05:25 PM

Q-

The website has got to be legit: "godlike productions"?

On the serious side there were a whole lot of nuclear plants knocked off-line by Thursday 7.1 aftershock. And a whole lot of plant workers scrambling to re-stabilize them.

Ugh!

I'm getting even fonder of wind farms. At least when they get wiped out by an earthquake and tsunami, there's not a radiation pollution problem.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 03:56 PM

Yesterday-
-Rokkaisho reprocessing plant (Aomori) operating on emergency diesel power generator
-Tomari Nuclear Power plant (Hokkaido) oerating at 90% capacity on reactors 1 and 2. Reactor 3 ? Operated by Hokkaido Electric Power Co.
-Higashi-Doori plant (Aomori) operating on emergency diesel generator to cool the Spent Fuel Pool. Two units run by TEPCO, two units run by Tohoku Electric Power Co. More reactors planned for the site.
-Onagawa Power Plant (Miyagi), 2 of 3 reactors operating on emergency diesel generators. Cooling systems for Spent Fuel Pools temporarily stopped but now are operating. [A Tohoku plant, built by Toshiba]

Don't know reliability of this site. Nothing found for April 9.

http://www. godlike productions.com/forum1/message1436138/pg1

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 02:57 PM

From an update yesterday:

"Japan Atomic Energy Institute also confirmed that safety, security, located in Rokkasho, Aomori Prefecture (Rokkasho) nuclear fuel reprocessing plants and uranium enrichment facilities have lost external power supply, but the emergency power supply systems are running."

It seems worthwhile following this story, given the inventory of high level nuclear waste at the site.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 02:39 PM

The purpose of the Rokkasho complex (JNFL) is not only for reprocessing.

1. Uranium enrichment plant
2. Plutonium reprocessing plant
3. MOX fuel fabricarion facility with 800 ton/year capacity
4. Nuclear waste storage facility
5. High level nuclear waste temporary storage facility
6. Japan Atomic Energy Agency offices and facilities.
6. Headquarters, Japan Nuclear Fuel Limited.
7. Transportation of uranium and low level waste

Stockholders:
77 companies (not named)
10 domestic electric power companies.

JNFL founded 1980. Permission for fabrication of MOX granted 2010.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 10:30 AM

Here's a link to a pretty scary background report on the Rokkasho Reprocessing Plant located in Aomori Prefecture: click here at your own risk!

Greenpeace artists should be commended on their evidently creative graphic.

But the discussion merits review.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 10:20 AM

Oh, shit! We're really in trouble now!! The thread name got changed!!!

Thanks, Joe.

gnu-

It's all so overwhelming to think about, even when you're ten thousand miles away. What generally works for me is to focus on one small part of the disaster and try to clarify that.

I can't find any new update on the status of the Aomori nuclear reprocessing plant. Maybe that means everything is back to normal.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 06:41 AM

NHK...

The operator of the damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant has stepped up its effort to remove highly radioactive water that is hampering restoration of reactor cooling systems.

Tokyo Electric Power Company says contaminated water in a concrete tunnel of the Number 2 reactor has risen 10 centimeters since leakage of the water into the ocean stopped on Wednesday.

The company says the gap between the surface of the waste water and the top of the tunnel was 94 centimeters as of 7 AM on Saturday. It denies any possibility that the water could overflow from the tunnel.

The source of the contaminated water has not been identified.
TEPCO plans to transfer the waste water either to a processing facility for nuclear waste or turbine condensers depending on the progress in current operations.

The company also continues discharging less-radioactive water into the ocean from the processing facility to make room for more-radioactive water.

Some 7,700 tons of less-radioactive water have been released into the sea and the release of the remaining 800 tons is expected to come to an end on Saturday.

In a separate operation to inject nitrogen gas into the containment vessel of the Number 1 reactor to prevent a possible hydrogen explosion, TEPCO plans to increase the purity of nitrogen gas from 98 percent to 99.98 percent.

The plant operator says a strong aftershock on Thursday night did not damage any facilities of the compound, but the surface temperature of the Number 1 reactor rose sharply immediately after the tremor that hit northeastern Japan minutes before midnight.

The reading stood at 223 degrees Celsius at 7 PM, but it rose nearly 40 degrees just after the quake. The temperature had fallen back to 240 degrees at 6 AM on Saturday.

TEPCO says it will continue close monitoring as what caused the sudden rise in temperature is not known.

The company also plans to fly an unmanned small helicopter equipped with an infrared camera over the plant to take pictures of facilities that it has been unable to check. It hopes the photos will help to determine how to proceed with restoration work.

Saturday, April 09, 2011 12:36 +0900 (JST)

*******************************************************************

"The company also plans to fly an unmanned small helicopter equipped with an infrared camera over the plant to take pictures of facilities that it has been unable to check."

The Japanese have that kinda technology??? (It would be a reasonable joke if it wasn't so sad.)

Hard to believe this shit innit?

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 03:42 AM

I saw this on a related fundraising site and thought it worth posting here. I post it with an open yet continually confused mind.

The poster gives his telephone number, which I have deleted, P.M. me if you would like to follow up.

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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 10:56 PM

The Union of Concerned Scientists have posted a new transcript of their teleconference with the media today. Here's the link: Click here for report

It's much worse that I was hoping for. In fact I'm too depressed to discuss it but consider this excerpt:

"There are signs that the explosions in the Unit 4 and perhaps also the Unit 3 spent fuel pool have caused irradiated material to leave the building. That could have been the reason for the high or the reports periodically of neutron beams. That actually could be coming from decay from fuel or fuel particles that are now no longer in the spent fuel pool and were carried away by the explosion. That was already known to cause high radiation levels."

Here's another deeply disturbing excerpt:

"They're so far beyond where emergency procedures and preplanning have done that they're basically having to jerry-rig solution paths or potential solution paths for situations that were never anticipated."

Would someone else PM Joe Offer and ask him politely to change the thread name form "looming" to simply "disaster."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 10:34 PM

And evidently folks here don't want to leap ahead as I did this morning and contemplate the meltdown of a nuclear reprocessing plant. Actually I don't blame you. It's most likely horrific and I'd have to work really hard to come up with appropriate terms to describe it. And maybe, we'll all get lucky and they'll re-connect the Aomori Plant to the grid. I certainly hope so.

I also agree with Donuel that the explosion we saw on video for reactor Unit 3 appeared to be more than a hydrogen explosion. But that won't be confirmed for years. Just remember what we've said.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 08:55 PM

I have reasonable doubt.

All but one containment building had already blown up from hydrogen buildup inside. Now how could hydrogen explode like that in the open air?

It would have had to have been confined or in a vessel under tremendous pressure. PErhaps the cooling pools still had roofs and walls and the explosion came from the cooling pool containment area from a hydrogen explosion but that would have released vast quantities of nuclear materials from the pond.
In which case it could have been hydrogen but along with it the cooling pond and its contents...a very bad thing akin to a dirty bomb.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 07:22 PM

http://www.japantoday.com/category/national/view/man-found-stranded-in-empty-town-inside-evacuation-zone-since-tsunami They just found someone in a deserted town. I suspect there will be others. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 04:51 PM

And to follow that up: there are quite a few nuclear-blast calculators on the web, mostly based on Glasstone and Dolan (you can even do it in your mobile phone). Using this one:

http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/gmap/hydesim.html

I find that the 15psi overpressure distance for a .2KT blast is .09 miles. That implies total destruction of even the strongest buildings. The Fukushima reactors are not that far apart, and even the building around the reactor that exploded wasn't totally destroyed. So Donuel's guess was way off. The explosive force of a buildingful of hydrogen-oxygen mixture sounds about right to explain what happened. Less hydrogen than the Hindenburg fire, but better mixed with air, hence more explosive.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 04:12 PM

The explosion looked to be about .2 kilotons (just a guess). An explosion with accompagning fission is more like a dirty bomb or a neutron bomb. It does not have to be enormous to be dangerous and deadly.

There is nothing in any of the footage to suggest the explosion was anything other than a hydrogen explosion, as the official staements have suggested. It CANNOT POSSIBLY have been a fission explosion, or the contamination spread about would have been vastly larger (and absolutely unmistakable in composition).

Fuel-air explosions (of which hydrogen explosions are one type) are among the largest non-nuclear blasts the military makes use of. That looked fairly small compared to some of what the US war machine is equipped to deal out.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/fae.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 03:24 PM

"Modern-day influence

Today, the influence of the zaibatsu can still be seen in the form of financial groups, institutions, and larger companies whose origins reach back to the original zaibatsu, often sharing the same original family names (for example, Sumitomo Mitsui Banking Corporation). However, some argue that the "old mechanisms of financial and administrative control" that zaibatsu once enjoyed have been destroyed. Despite the absence of an actualized sweeping change to the existence of large industrial conglomerates in Japan, the zaibatsu's previous vertically integrated chain of command, ending with a single family, has now widely been displaced by the horizontal relationships of association and coordination characteristic of keiretsu (系列?). Keiretsu, meaning "series" or "subsidiary", could be interpreted as being suggestive of this difference."

mg, I do not doubt for a moment that OC is up to its eyes in reaping profits from this disaster. Much in the same way that OC is up to its eyes in Nevada's gambling industry or Quebec's construction industry.

You as right to be concerned for the common people of Japan. I like that about your posts and the fact that you never seem to forget them. It's a quality that is missing in too many people. Good on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mgq
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 03:03 PM

They had better be thinking about what to do about the 1000 or so radioactive bodies. I think pictures of kindergarten children left to the elements is not going to be good, and certainly traumatic to the country. THere will be massive, and needed changes after this, unless the organized crime is just too entrenched. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 02:33 PM

In addition to the proposal by Toshiba, Hitachi and General Electric Co. are expected to file their own proposal.
The proposals will be examinined by TEPCO and METI.

Chubu Electric Power Co. is currently working on decommissioning two rectors at the Hamaoki nuclear complex with work scheduled to end by March, 2037.
[This time estimate is probably closer to fact than the time alloted in the Toshiba estimate for Fukushima.]

Japan Times, April 9, 2011.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 02:22 PM

Toshiba hopes to decommission and dismantle the four Fukushima reactors in 10 years, a somewhat shorter time than previously announced. It filed the plan with the Japanese government and TEPCO, with aid from its subsidiary, Westinghouse Electric Company.
The proposal includes removal of fuel rods in the containers, removal of spent fuel rods in the storage pools, demolish the facilities, and improve the soil condition. [Overly optimistic?]
Japan Times, April 9, 2011.

Blame seems to be heaped exclusively on TEPCO, the operator.
It should be apportioned to the designer, GE, which was responsible for the elevated spent fuel pool design, Hitachi and Toshiba, responsible for constructing this type of reactor, and the Japanese government, which seems to have approved the design and construction without adequate investigation of problems that could develop in an earthquake-tsunami prone area.
Add to this the accepting, get on with business attitude of most Japanese citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 02:02 PM

http://nation.foxnews.com/culture/2011/04/08/japans-elite-hiding-weapons-program-inside-nuclear-plants Fox news..

I too have wondered what they have to hide besides incompetence, shoddy work, falsified documents etc. I didn't think along these lines but there is nothing we should not think about. The way they handled this..I just can't chalk it up to being unprepared and not too bright.

I will google Zaibatsu. Are they organized crime? If not, what is the role of organized crime in the nuclear program and the running of Japan in general? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 01:33 PM

The explosion looked to be about .2 kilotons (just a guess). An explosion with accompagning fission is more like a dirty bomb or a neutron bomb. It does not have to be enormous to be dangerous and deadly.

It does not have to be a full out thermo nuclear explosion to render the area uninhabitable. THie distinction between a Hiroshima style explosion vs. a fission excursion or merely explodinsions that send nuclear fuel up into the air has been brought up before with similar misunderstandings about thermonuclear vs dirty neutron bomb-like explosions.

The people of Japan will lose many people 30 years from now which means the future victimes are mostly going to be under the age of 25.
Small children are more vulnerable and will show the effects sooner than adults. Of course the workers at the plant have assumed their days were numbere 2 weeks ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 12:03 PM

those little dosimeter badges that measure radiation DO NOT measure Neutron radiation!

So what? They probably don't measure your blood cholesterol either.

It would be pretty difficult to get exposed to a lot of neutron radiation without also getting exposed proportionately to other stuff that the dosimeter does measure.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 11:32 AM

Al those little dosimeter badges that measure radiation DO NOT measure Neutron radiation!


By the way it took my sister 30 years to gradually die of Radiation poisoning that accured at age 18.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 08:29 AM

Leaks summary:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12911190

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 08:19 AM

Too much information coming in all at once. What a frantic scramble it must be for those in Japan trying to cope with this DISASTER (alert to Joe Offer, please strike "looming" in thread title).

"In addition, the quake disabled all external power lines at a nuclear fuel reprocessing plant in Aomori Prefecture. The cooling systems here are still running on emergency diesel power." Ugh!!!

Believe it or not nuclear fuel reprocessing plants are even more dangerous to the environment than nuclear plants; that's the main reason why after our first one in West Valley (1966-1972), New York, failed to function properly the nuclear industry refused to invest in another one. These plants collect used nuclear fuel, have a huge inventory, and then re-concentrate the spent fuel into viable fuel rods again, in the process creating huge volumes of lower level radioactive waste. One of the byproducts of reprocessing is Plutonium, which is why in 1977 President Carter banned private companies from developing such plants. President Reagan lifted the ban in 1981 but no private US company has considered this a viable investment without substantial government subsidies.

There are some 15 nuclear fuel reprocessing plants still operating around the world.

Miskin-

Thanks for sharing your fears about nuclear power accidents, along with your conviction that we need to continue to rely on it while learning lessons from the mistakes.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 07:46 AM

I believe the world needs nuclear power; there is at the moment no viable alternative.

As Fukushima is about to show rather dramatically, all nuclear power does is transfer fossil fuel energy from one place and time to another, very expensively. Nuclear power stations are simply expensive and dangerous batteries.

Making cement costs an immense amount of fossil fuel energy, which has to come from coal. Add in the costs of mining, fuel processing, and structural steel, and the up-front energy input to a nuclear plant is a large fraction of the energy it will ever generate. Add in the costs of waste disposal and decommissioning, and it's unlikely any nuclear plant has every been a nett energy producer. Add in the costs of entombing a mess like Fukishima in something that will make the Pyramids look like a privy, and nuclear power becomes a catastrophic waste of fossil fuel energy the world can't afford.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 07:29 AM

Believe me I am scared, very scared. Nuclear stuff is nasty. All I originally objected to was depicting, as fact, the explosion as a "nuclear " explosion with mushroom clouds and all the trappings of a bomb, when it quite obviously wasn't. That for my money is scaremongering.
No need for more on that then!
I hope lessons will continue to be learned from this disaster. I believe the world needs nuclear power; there is at the moment no viable alternative. BUT we must learn how to handle it safely. Don't build reactors in unstable tectonic plate regions. Build them in remote regions with enforced exclusion zones and buy big fat cables to distribute the power to where it is needed. Too simplistic I now but if we think one world it becomes possible. Radiation clouds know no boundaries.
Meanwhile I will leave the debate about the long term effects of radiation and monitoring and hypothesis to brains much greater than mine, as illustrated on this forum. I will spend my time trying to do something for the survivors struggling to come to terms with their own personal tragedy.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 05:54 AM

Well said, Jack.

However, I no longer think there are any 'free' governments in the world, and certainly not in Japan. The real government there is the Zaibatsu, and they ain't going away anytime soon, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 05:53 AM

NHK.....

Japan's nuclear agency says moving highly radioactive water from the Fukushima Daiichi power plant's turbine building to a storage facility may not start for another week.

The water in the basement of the turbine building of the plant's Number 2 reactor and a concrete tunnel has been hampering work to restore the reactor's cooling systems.

The plant's operator, Tokyo Electric Power Company, has been discharging lower-level radioactive water into the sea from the facility to make room for the highly radioactive water. The work is to end on Friday.

But the government's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency says the facility must first be checked for cracks that might have been caused by the earthquake, and that this could take several days to a week.

The agency says the facility was designed to store low-level radioactive water, and that every effort must be made to make sure that highly radioactive water does not leak.

Thursday, April 07, 2011 17:11 +0900 (JST)