BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 09:44 AM

gnu-

Even under normal circumstances the decommissioning of a nuclear plants takes 5 to ten years. For example with the Maine Yankee nuclear plant:

"The eight-year $500 million decommissioning process spanned from 1997 until 2005."

The conditions at Fukushima-1 are not, of course, normal, and there are 6 reactor units on site, four of them heavily damaged. I would predict that it will take them at least twenty years to complete their work. I would not be surprised if they declared the entire plant complex a nuclear dump, entombing what is there rather than trying to dismantle the reactors and spent fuel pools and shipping them somewhere else.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 12:55 PM

NIRS has this very interesting update on the spent fuel pool at Unit-4 at the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex:

"UPDATE, 11:30 am, Thursday, April 14, 2011. The fuel pool at Unit 4 apparently has experienced an inadvertent criticality at some point in the past month. Tokyo Electric Power (TEPCO) has confirmed that some fuel rods in the pool are damaged. A 400 milliliter water sampling from the pool taken Tuesday found elevated levels (as much as 100,000 times above normal) of Iodine-131, Cesium-134 and Cesium-137. As nuclear engineer Arnie Gunderson of Fairewind Associates points out, there should be no Iodine-131 detected at all. All of the fuel from Unit 4 had been removed from the core and placed in the pool well before the March 11 accident. With a half-life of 8 days, the likely way Iodine-131 would be detected in this water would be if there had been a criticality—which given the severe damage to the pool is more than just conjecture. TEPCO, however, suggests the readings may be caused by radioactive rubble in the pool or radioactive rainwater coming into the pool.

TEPCO says it so far has pumped out 700 tons of highly radioactive water from a trench to a condenser; but with 60,000 tons of this water across three reactors, that's a proverbial drop in the bucket."

Charley Noble, off on the road for a week

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 01:12 PM

The more I read, the more I'm dumbfounded that we have come to rely on this mega-dangerous form of power, purely to satisfy our desires.

Drive carefully, Charley..and have a lovely time.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 01:59 PM

If I read the report right, the president of TEPCO has just now been summoned to appear before parliament. Why this long? Who runs who there? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 03:42 PM

A few days ago, I posted that Hitachi said it could decommission Fukushima and estimated 10 years. Most experts, as Charley suggested, were estimating uup to 30 years.

The government has asked TEPCO to make initial payments for losses. Having lost 4/5 of its stock value, the company will have a hard time keeping afloat without massive government assistance. Under Japanese law, the operator has sole liability; designer and builders have none.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 04:06 PM

Japan Times today- bad news, but expected.

Melted fuel rod fragments have sunk to the bottom of three reactors at Fukushima No. 1 (Daiichi) power plant and could broach their pressure vessels if cooling operations are seriously disrupted.
"If too many of the melted fuel fragments puddle at the bottom, they can generate enough concentrated heat to bore a hole in the pressure vessel, which would result in a massive radioactive release to the environment."
This had been speculated on for some time.
"It will take at least two or three months...until the situation of fuel rods is stabilized," said Takashi Sawada, vice chairman of Atomic Energy Society of Japan.
The news report goes on to give measurements of radioactivity in soil and groundwater, taken by Tepco.

In other news, TEPCO has been ordered to pay 50 billion yen as provisional payment to about 50,000 households forced to leave the 30 km nuclear evacuation zone.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 05:59 PM

"Under Japanese law, the operator has sole liability; designer and builders have none."

Under most legal systems this would be the case initially. The operator has a contract with the user... obvious. However, there USUALLY would be "further" liability as the operator (owner) would usually have recourse against the designers and builders as they had a contract for the design and construction which would include not fucking over the world, whether stated specifically in the contract or simply implied in the nature of due diligence. I realize that is not quite in proper legal terminology but, in engineering terminology, the designers and builders are fucked although it will take many years for the owner to fuck them. But, they will get fucked... and they should get fucked.

I only say they should get sued severely in the spirit that it may prevent such tragedies in future. It serves no immediate gain except "revenge" but it may help to alleviate such a disaster in future.

Am I off base with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 07:57 PM

It sounds like it takes almost as much money to decommission one as to build one... and more trouble in many ways.

And so far, NO ONE has decided where to store spent fuel safely. The US has been dithering about this for 40 years! (They thought briefly of using underground salt mines in Kansas...just 35 miles from ME! Now they pretend they'll use Yucca Mountain....someday. In the meatime, spent fuel is stored onsite...just like in Japan.)

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 09:02 PM

gnu, there was an article in Japan Times about liability. I mentioned it a while back but cannot refind it.
Japanese law with regard to liability and damages seems to bear little relationship to the law we know.

As I recall, the article was very clear about the liability, the burden being that in Japanese law, once the title was transferred to the operator, TEPCO, it would bear sole responsibility for liabilities.
A General Electric statement said that this is the case.
This would leave General Electric (designer), Hitachi and Toshiba (reactor builders) free of the costs (General Electric and Hitachi have a relationship, I don't know the share relationship).

Japanese bankers are urging the government to bail out TEPCO. "No one wants to see TEPCO go bankrupt," said Ben Westmore, a Tokyo-based analysist at MF Global Securities.
One option "may be that TEPCO would issue enormous amounts of new shares and the government would then buy most of them. The government can hold them for a while until the price of TEPCO shares stabilizes and then sell them to other investors."
Thurs, April 7, Japan Times, "Bankers Urge Aid for TEPCO." (The subtitle says no new loans to TEPCO until bailout)

The Japanese law requires the utility to carry liability insurance of about 120 billion yen. The government also compensates victims if an accident is caused by a natural disaster.

Engineers are estimating decommission costs at 1 trillion yen.
An economist estimates the electricity shortfall and adverse effects from radioactivity and contamination will cut 1.7 trillion yen from GDP.
Tepco's supplying area covers 40 percent of the country's gross domestic product.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 09:15 PM

Q... I still would argue that the owner has the right to engage the designers and builders as there exists a duty under contract that must be conveyed and cannot be infringed by simple transfer as you suggest. Let's not argue the point... let's see how it plays out.

I'll by you a pint if what you say works out... even though it's wrong... >;-)

And, we might both be dead by the time it plays out. Hopefully that will be the case because I hope legal wrangling doesn't get in the way of taking care of the business at hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 05:56 AM

NHK...

The operator of the troubled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant says the level of highly radioactive water in a tunnel of the No. 2 reactor has been rising.

Contaminated water in the plant's facilities is hampering efforts to restore reactor cooling systems. Leakages of such water into the ocean and the ground are also raising concern.

Tokyo Electric Power Company, or TEPCO, finished transferring part of the wastewater -- about 660 tons -- from the tunnel to a condenser in a turbine building on Wednesday.

The transfer lowered the water level in the tunnel by 8 centimeters, but it began rising again, exceeding the previous level by 2.5 centimeters as of Saturday morning.

TEPCO says work to fix the leakage of highly radioactive water into the ocean earlier this month may have caused water from the reactor to accumulate in the tunnel.

The company hopes to begin transferring contaminated water to a waste-processing facility by the end of next week. It is now accelerating work to monitor and fix water leaks in the facility.

Highly radioactive water may also be leaking underground.

On Thursday, TEPCO detected higher radiation levels in underground water. The observed level was up to 38 times that of one week ago.

TEPCO began taking radiation readings 3 times per week on Saturday, instead of just once per week.

Saturday, April 16, 2011 12:13 +0900 (JST)

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 08:39 AM

"Melted fuel rod fragments have sunk to the bottom of three reactors..."

SHIT!

Just because we discussed this likely possibility doesn't make its announcement any less shocking.

In the States the Federal Government picks up the insurance tab for nuclear accidents, as another subsidy to the industry. I'm not sure what the situation is in Japan.

Back to the NEFFA festival.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 10:49 AM

TEPCO says work to fix the leakage of highly radioactive water into the ocean earlier this month may have caused water from the reactor to accumulate in the tunnel.

No shit Sherlock.

You put the plug in the bath with the tap running. What do you expect to happen?

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 01:59 PM

How do they take these readings? From where? Robots? People?

Why in the name of all that is holy is this incompetent company allowed to only measure once a week or three times a week? Why is there not moment to moment monitoring? Are there no devices to do that?

I do not understand why they are allowed to only test this infrequently, why there are not independent people monitoring, why there are not sensors or whatever that send constant information, why anyone would trust anything this company says or does. They have an international crisis and a private or public company is allowed to do whatever it wants without informing the public or apparently the government or the traditional enemies of Japan who are receiving this radiation. WTF?

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 02:11 PM

Is this a 'politically correct' judgement by the U. S. Department of State? It doesn't quite jibe with Japanese press reports of "melted fuel rod fragments sink..." etc.
"The crisis is "dramatically different" and efforts to stabilize the reactors are "ongoing and successful," the U. S. State Department said Thursday. People outside the evavuation zone are "highly unlikely" to be exposed to harmful radiation even if there are disruptions at the plant, the advisory said."
The advisory to U. S. Embassy staff in Tokyo was lifted.
The above quote from Japan Times Online.
--------------------------------------

Some of the soil tests are inconclusive because soils contain radioactive materials from Russian, U. S. and other nuclear states that carried out atmospheric atomic tests in past decades. (Donuel will say we are already poisoned).

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 02:29 PM

Japanese Liability Law- see Wall Street Journal, Law Blog, March 18, 2011.
http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2011/03/18/japanese-taxpayers-likely-to-shoulder-nuclear-liability/

The lawyer, Ashby, says only TEPCO and Japanese government are on the hook.
But as you say, there could be a surprise or two before this is over.
Lets just go Dutch on the beer now, while we are still alive.
(Oops! political correctness.... May I wiggle out by saying I only meant we should drink Heineken?)

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 02:32 PM

I'd have thought they'd have had the top experts from around the world over there...

In fact, WHY isn't there an International Nuclear Rescue Division, or some such thing? This stuff is deadly when it goes wrong, so surely there should be a worldwide emergency agency for these things happen....

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 02:41 PM

Jack... here's another "Sherlock moment" from my post above...

"Highly radioactive water may also be leaking underground."

D'ya think? WTF?????

Q... Heineken... fine with me if you drink it. I'll have my usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 02:51 PM

Top U. S. and French specialists are helping- see previous posts.

(OMG, a Molson drinker?)

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 02:53 PM

Sigh... worse... Canuck Bud.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 02:45 AM

There never has been a sound sustainable ecoonomic savings to any nuclear plant on Earth. Not even France.

In every single case the waste nuclear fuel issue is still unsolved leaving the last ditch scenario of reprocessing what can be salvaged and storing the waste on site. Over itme it is like Shel Sivlerstein's Sarah who would not take the garbage out.

Now take into account the growing areas on Earth which can not be safely habitable due to radioactive accidents. First they are measure in Su miles then in terms of a state like Rhode Island and then Pennsylvania and then half the oceans...

Sixty years agop we deposited highly radioactive waste in steel barrels and dumped them in the ocean. They all began to leak about 10 years ago. 10s of thousands of tons worth.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 07:26 AM

Picture caption in today's BBC story, of Hillary Clinton with the Emperor:

Before the disaster, Japan-US ties had been strained by a dispute over military bases

Meaning, I suppose, that the US has now got Japan over a barrel and they can carry on with their gang of unaccountable rape-happy thugs occupying a quarter of Okinawa indefinitely.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 08:40 AM

Well, gang, you're doing a fine job of digesting the latest updates.

I fully expect that a few more horrible surprises lie in wait as they examine the details of this evolving disaster. I would argue that it was a disaster "designed" to happen, in that TEPCO ignored the "unlikely case" of a level 9 earthquake and tsunami. I'm also still convinced that there were human errors committed in trying to manage the crippled reactors and spent fuel pools after the event, not surprising since they had not devised a script to deal with such an unlikely situation and were forced to improvise.

Well, it's back to my hard work at this Festival.

Charley Noble, anchored at NEFFA

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 12:02 PM

NHK...

The operator of the damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant has issued a schedule for putting the crisis under control in 6 to 9 months.

The chairman of Tokyo Electric Power Company, Tsunehisa Katsumata, explained the plan at a news conference on Sunday.

The utility firm said a two-phase process is scheduled.
In the first stage over the next 3 months, it will build new cooling systems outside the Number 1 and 3 reactor buildings to cool down the nuclear fuel, and to ensure that radiation levels around the plant continue to decline.

The company says it will contain the radioactivity leakage from the Number 2 reactor by patching the damaged section.

In the second stage, TEPCO plans to lower the temperature of the nuclear fuel in the reactors to below 100 degrees Celsius to stabilize its condition.

The firm says the cooling will considerably lower the radiation levels in the environment around the plant.

The two-phases will be completed in 6 to 9 months.

The firm also plans to cover the reactor buildings with giant covers with filters to prevent the release of radioactive substances into the air.

It will also set up equipment to purify the contaminated water in tanks and other facilities.

At the same time, the company will increase the number of monitoring points within the government-set evacuation areas. It will use the data to neutralize the radioactive substances in soil and on buildings.

Sunday, April 17, 2011 16:35 +0900 (JST)

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 12:04 PM

and...

TEPCO is scheduled to start operating the new cooling system by summer.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 01:34 PM

"....unlikely case of a level nine earthquake and tsunami...."
The Japanese government also dismissed the possibility, not just TEPCO. A number of the designated safe refuges for those fleeing a tsunami were completely inundated and thousands died in them.

An article in the Santa Fe New Mexican about the nuclear test at the Trinity Site, near Alamogordo, White Sands, New Mexico, in July, 1945, in which a 19-kiloton plutonium device called "The Gadget" was detonated.
Tresa VanWinkle, director of the Alamogordo-based Cancer Awareness, Prevalence and Early Detection Center, points to cancer in her family and in others, and to spiking cancer rates among families in the wind-whipped Tulerosa Basin north of Alamogordo.
No compensation or recognition of cancer-caused deaths has come from the Federal government.

"The Gadget" carried about the same payload as the bomb dropped on Nagasaki.
Santa Fe New Mexican, April 16, 2011: "Six Decades after Trinity Site Blast, Area Residents Living with Fallout with No Help from Government," Dennis Carroll, The New Mexican.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 03:01 PM

"No compensation or recognition of cancer-caused deaths has come from the Federal government."

The government cannot do this. It would be an admission of MANY things. I know a widow who receives a pension which is not taxable. It is a "compassionate" pension. The government absolutely denies that radiation from her husband's service in the nuclear industry caused his death... they cannot admit it because many more cases would qualify for compensation, including the general public, farmers who lost animals...

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 03:05 PM

Interesting quote- Prof. of Politics Kato, Waseda University, on Clinton visit: "The purpose of the visit to Japan is clearly to see whether the Kan government is really capable of handling the crisis, and I think the conclusion will be that it is not."
The Kan government may have difficulty staying in power, but so far the Japanese press, although critical, has not mounted a strong attack on the government.
France 24, AFP press, international news, 17 April, 2011; "Clinton Visits Japan, U. S. relief Effort Warms Ties."
The article also reports 20,000 US forces are engaged in helping to clear debris, and distribute aid supplie. The US is providing coolants, two water barges and fire engines at Fukushima.

Japan Times, carrying the story that reactor shutdowns are nine months away, reports the U. S. proposed a "daring plan to use a remote-controlled helicopter and cranes to pluck out the spent fuel rods."
TEPCO is "locked in a vicious cycle in which water being pumped to cool the reactors is being turned into radioactive runoff that must either be stored or dumped into the sea, while it bleeds off radioactive steam into the atmosphere to cool off the cores."

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 09:59 AM

Odd, last evening's post disappeared into limbo.

TEPCO is "locked in a vicious cycle in which water being pumped to cool the reactors is being turned into radioactive runoff that must either be stored or dumped into the sea, while it bleeds off radioactive steam into the atmosphere to cool off the cores."

This situation was certainly predictable but there were few good options for the Japanese once they were forced to improvise. I'm not sure our nuclear engineers would have done better if they were operating "beyond the script," what could reasonably have been anticipated given the constraints of what the nuclear industry was willing to build. I do wonder also if the corporate culture in Japan may also have played a role in how poorly their engineers dealt with the initial impact of the earthquake and tsunami.

If there is a similar earthquake and tsunami in Southern California, we may be able to test this interesting question. How exciting!!!

Charley Noble, adrift in Brookyn for much of the week

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 11:21 AM

The current dreadful state of affairs was officially said to last six to 9 months.

I think it will best be measured in centuries.

Thousands of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 02:36 PM

Problems
Japan Times reports U. S. robots found dangerous spikes in three reactor buildings, which will hamper efforts to bring Fukushima under control.
Workers are trying to repair the cooling systems. TEPCO is reducing hours for its contract workers, "the maximum allowable annual radiation dose for nuclear workers is 250 millisieverts, which is two and a half times the pre-crisis limit. This means each worker can only spend a maximum of five hours inside the building. Many have already passed the standard annual limit of 100 millisieverts and many subcontractors are reportedly refusing to adhere the to the higher radiation limit set for the crisis".

TEPCO plans to install a new air-cooling system to cool the coolant water to be stored inside the reactors' containment vessels. These are similar to air conditioners used in French nuclear power plants that remove heat from the coolant water that will circulate inside the containment vessel and keep the core cool.
Stabilization is still estimated to take up to nine months.

"Meanwhile a more urgent task...at No. 2 reactor, where radioactive water is flooding its turbine building and an adjacent underground trench." TEPCO is building storage facility and water-proofing it. Adhesive concrete may be used at No. 2 to stop leakage.
Polluted water in buildings and nearby areas totals "67,500 tons."

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 02:45 PM

Speaking of measuring, in a Tepco-like move, (I think that Tepco is going to move from being a noun to a verb) some department in Alaska, I don't think Fisheries..but it sounds like a state department..has declined to measure radiation in fish because it is so unlikely that any will be found. What a stupid reason for not measuring something, if indeed that is the reason. Again, independent, unbiased investigators should measure everything, if only to calm potential purchasers, stabilize the market and provide baseline data. That is too stupid for scientists to say we are not going to measure something because we of course know what the answers will be..if indeed it is the scientists making that decision. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 03:04 PM

Experts doubt nine month figure.
Too many uncertainties say Tadashi Yoshida, Nuclear Reactor Laboratory, Tokyo City University, and Hisashi Ninokata, Tokyo Institute of Technology.
Explanations given: "Success No Given in Tepco Road Map," Japan Times, April 19, 2011.

An inclusive[?] diagram, TEPCO's "road map," is reproduced at the head of the article. Worth a look.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 03:21 PM

These are people who could not get firehoses working. How can they manage a nuclear crisis? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 03:28 PM

Yeah... that cracked firehose thing was unreal to the nth.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 03:28 PM

Both federal and state health officials say North Pacific fish are so unlikely to be contaaminated by radioactive material from Japan that there's no reason to test them.
Ron Klein, Alaska's food safety manager, says the FDA and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration have demonstrated that Alaskans have no cause for worry.
NY Post, UPI, etc.

Russians also say no cause for worry and discuss fish migratory patterns. UPI

(A look at Pacific Ocean currents map shows currents hitting the American coast well south of Alaska. A subsidiary current branches from there to Alaska. Automatic atmospheric and sea monitoring is done for California. Nothing above background has been noted, except for the atmospheric measurements for one day.)

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 09:11 PM

It's not so much where the currents go but, perhaps, where the higher predator fish such as tuna go after feeding off the Japanese home waters.

It's relatively easy to do some sample testing, and perhaps reassure everyone.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 09:20 PM

Tuna is not caught in Alaskan waters.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 09:53 PM

http://totaltuna.com/

Of course they could have caught it elsewhere. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 08:38 AM

Robots lenses steamed up!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13127728

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 09:16 AM

Jim-

It kind of makes sense that conditions within what's left of the reactor and turbine buildings might be very hot and humid, and that the Packbots might fog up their lenses.

mg-

What ever happened to the spent fuel from the decommissioned Trojan reactor? Is it in dry cask storage or still in a spent fuel pool?

I've also read a follow-up story this morning in my New York Times about the Vermont Yankee license extension attempt. Vermont Yankee, as mentioned above, is a boiling water reactor similar in design and age to the reactor in Unit 1 at the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex. The plant is schedule3d for decommissioning in 2012 but the NRC in March(!) approved a company plan to extend its license another 20 years. However, under an existing agreement with the company running the plant the Vermont Legislature has the final word on such an extension and the Senate voted decisively in April to not approve the extension. Now the company is suing the State, saying that it is interfering with interstate commerce and only the NRC has jurisdiction over nuclear health and safety issues. I don't expect the Governor or the State Legislature to back down and this will make an interesting case for "state's rights."

Charley Noble, still resident in Brooklyn after his morning bagel and coffee

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 12:59 PM

don't know about trojan.

Here is a nice article about the IIC at Tepco.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/public-leaders-network/blog/2011/apr/18/private-sector-tepco-not-shining-beacon-public

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 01:12 PM

mg-

Actually not a "nice article" but perhaps a critically accurate assessment.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 01:51 PM

Areva, the French reactor company, will build a facility to decontaminate the radioactive water at the Fukushima Daiichi plant.
Chemical agents will remove radioactive iodine and caesium from contaminated water.
The decontaminated water can then be used to cool the reactors. TEPCO and Areva hope to have the operations start in June.
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/19_33.html

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 02:04 PM

Other news-
An SDF (Japanese Ground Self-Defense Force) member, assigned to work near the Fukushima Daiichi plant, has been dismissed after be fled in panic.
The commander of the unit pledged to tighten discipline to prevent a recurrence. [!]

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 03:15 PM

More about the IIC at Tepco. I keep wanting to call them Petco but do not want to insult a probably fine company (Petco). I have the utmost contempt for almost everything I have seen and read about Tepco and their utter inability to do the most obvious things.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/early-disorder-added-to-japans-nuclear-crisis/2011/04/10/AFHuRw5D_story_1.html

Of course I want them to bear any consequences that will not harm the Japanese public. I want them stripped of excessive pay, bribes, retirement beyond what a public school teacher would get. They are acting as a national government making decisions that affect oceans and air and food of other countries so we can't say well let Japan sort it out. Their feet have to be held to the fire and I want everything illegal they have ever done to be investigated and prison sentences or huge community service where necessary. Many if not most should resign whenever it is to the benefit of the Japanese people for them to do so..I would assume it is now but I do not know. It probably was the day of the disaster. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 04:31 PM

Lots of news items on this... a partial snippet...

The Associated Press

Date: Tuesday Apr. 19, 2011 6:25 AM ET

NEW DELHI — A mob opposing a government plan to build a nuclear plant in the western Indian state of Maharashtra ransacked a hospital and set buses on fire Tuesday during a protest strike.

Residents of Jaitapur have been protesting the proposed plant since the government's plans became public four years ago. The opposition has grown since Japan's nuclear crisis, with critics noting that Jaitapur is in a seismic zone.

The general strike was called after police fired to disperse protesters who attacked a police station Monday, killing one person.

The town's streets were mostly deserted as the strike took effect. But by midday, groups of people converged on the street, shouting slogans against the government. The mob later ransacked a government-run hospital and set at least three public transport buses on fire, police said.

Construction is to start this year on the first of six units at the proposed $10 billion plant, billed as the biggest in the world. The project by the French nuclear energy company Areva will generate 9,900 megawatts of power when completed. The first unit is expected to start producing power in 2018.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 04:31 PM

mg-

Interesting update on the concrete trucks that eventually proved so useful for directing cooling water on the crippled reactors.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 05:01 PM

New Asian reactors.
"Asia nuclear reactors face deadly tsunami risk," Associated Press (in Japan Times, April 20).
One of the world's biggest nuclear plants is being built on China's SE coast, close by Hong Kong. Three other facilities nearby are running or under construction.
They are close to subduction faults (where tectonic plates meet), hence major quakes and tsunami are likely. People in the area were swept out to sea by a tsunami in 1765.
Not far off in one on Taiwan's tip (40,000 killed in Taiwan in 1782.

Coastal locations seem to be favored for the 32 plants in operation or under construction in Asia.

Data have not been shared or evaluated by nuclear and geological scientists, or with the International Atomic Energy Agency (UN).
A scientist at the earth Observatory in Singapore says it is only a matter of time before the Manila Trench, and regional subduction faults, 'snap'.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 07:44 PM

Indeed, it appears that building nukes where it is cheap to build them is not cheap when things go wrong.

Re the crete pumper trucks... very odd they were not on site immediately. This "technology" is not new. Gee whiz... we got em here in the "backwoods".