BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: J-boy
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:09 PM

There's no sense in getting all worked up about something we have no control over. The world will still be here tomorrow. If it's not we won't know about it anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:11 PM

Japanese society is special in the sense of their extreme politeness embedded in the language. They have a deeply ingrained self determinism. I understand why the Japanese government is talking out of both sides of their face, their public officials do not want to have turmoil and attacks against contaminated victims who are fleeing to other areas but they do want some knowledge of the actual dangers of a nuclear disaster.

Since Hiroshima the folklore of radiation and monsters is near the heart of their psyche. Godzilla, there I said it. They are facing their worst monster movie scenario. Godzilla vs Mothra and Fukashima. Speaking of monsters I wonder what the Yakuza is up to.

Japan is nearing the 20th year of thier recession and absurd housing costs. The malaise of young Japanese society is profound. They have a very high suicide rate compared to the USA. Dealing with very real challenges will be shocking for japan's youth.


Regarding the status of what seems to be a limited version of meltdowns in reactor 1 and 3, the fate of Japan and global pollution is literally determined by the way the cookie crumbles.

I hope the fuel crumbles in a dispersed fashion and does not decide to go critical, even in one little tiny spot.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: number 6
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:20 PM

Well said Donuel.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:21 PM

Regular ol reddish Iodine can kill you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Potassium Iodide is the stuff that can be consumed by pill or by eye dropper.

jeez, where is John from Kansas ? He would have remembered that crucial fact. There is also a prescription Iodine mouth wash for oral surgury patients.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: J-boy
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:31 PM

The sky isn't falling. But if it makes you feel more alive then by all means have at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:36 PM

Yes, I know the difference, Donuel. There's the iodine you put on a cut to disinfect it...very poisonous if taken orally. Then there's the oral type that is taken with an eyedropper. I've been taking the latter daily for about a year now anyway, on the advice of my doctor, to help regulate the thyroid. It tastes good and has no harmful effects. It says right on the bottle: "Take 10 drops in water or juice once daily."

It's called "Iodine Drops" on the label, but it is Potassium Iodide, as shown in the Ingredients section.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:36 PM

Tune in to CNN tommorow when we all hope to see Anderson Cooper lowered by helicopter into Reactor #1 like a tea bag, right through its non existent roof and then broadcast right beside the containment vessel.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:45 PM

Yeah, right... ;-) Where's Geraldo Rivera when we need him?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 03:35 AM

Ring of Fire
10% of the World's Volcanoes
Japan

Nuclear Power Plants



Do any of these first three make the fourth a good idea, or am I missing the blindingly obvious?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 09:19 AM

Sorry, have got neither the time nor patience to go through all the postings to see if this has already been raised - my understanding of the problem seems to be that they need to urgently get in coolant to the reactors but probably need a power system to do it. The stand-by systems (generator then batteries)which should have kicked in failed because of the extreme circumstances (flooding).

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 09:31 AM

Yes that has already been covered, several times.

What's so great about your opinion that you need to express it without making any effort to read what other people have said?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 10:39 AM

Been mulling this over for much of the night. This morning there doesn't seem to be much more factual info to factor in. The newspapers are full of inept attempts by reporters to correlate info that they're not familiar with (not surprising) and if the situation wasn't so potentially tragic it would be very amusing.

Some have already pointed out above that this "accident in process" cannot repeat what happened to the Chernobyl reactor in 1986 and they are correct. The key differences include at Chernobyl the use of charcoal bricks to moderate the fission process and the lack of a containment vessel. When Chernobyl experienced meltdown and there was a hydrogen explosion the charcoal caught fire and its smoke was the source of a highly radioactive plume that spread worldwide for days. If there had been a containment vessel and a containment dome such as we have in nuclear plants in the States it's possible that a whole lot less radiation would have escaped into the environment; some would still have had to be released as pressure built up in the dome, as was done at Three Mile Island after its partial meltdown in 1979.

By the way one CNN "expert" last evening claimed that the malfunctioning Three Mile Island reactor was repaired and brought back on line. No, that never happened. Unit 2 was too badly damaged and contaminated to resume operations. It's sister Unit 1 however continued to operate.

Evidently the reactor containment vessel is still intact at Fukushima, despite the destruction of the building surrounding it during the spectacular hydrogen explosion yesterday morning, or so it's claimed by the nuclear industry spokesmen in Japan.

I'll be very surprised if there is not a second hydrogen explosion soon at one of the two other reactors in the Fukushima complex that were experiencing the same kind of cooling pump failure as the unit whose building exploded, unless the Japanese are more successful with auxiliary generators on-site to reactivate the cooling pumps.

No one knows how successful pumping saltwater in and around the reactor containment vessel will be, which is supposed to be happening now at Unit 1. That's never been tried before. One wonders what they plan to do with the huge volume of radioactive waste water created, other than pour it back into the sea...not to mention the clouds of radioactive steam created...

No one really knows what will happen if the fuel rods at Unit 1 do completely melt down. In the partial meltdown at Three Mile Island, the melt ate its way through the reactor containment vessel, swirled around the floor, and then ate its way back in! Not many people ever read the follow-up report that was published a year later. It seems unlikely that the melt would behave like a critical mass highly compressed in a bomb's containment, which also needs to be triggered by an explosion to achieve its classic nuclear explosion. That's the good news in what will be a very troubling 24 hours.

Oh, and there is the other nearby Fukushima complex where some of the reactors are also experiencing similar loss of coolant problems. Again, too much to focus on. I need more coffee.

Oh, and with regard to iodide tablets. The time to take them to protect your thyroid is before you are exposed to radioactive iodide, not after. That way the thyroid will no longer have the capacity to absorb the radioactive iodide. It's also true that too much non-radioactive iodide can make you very ill. Check on-line for the proper dosage.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 11:10 AM

It's a goat f**k out of control.

thanks for the advice concerning iodide tablets Charley.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 12:10 PM

Here's some more things to ponder:

Japan's chief cabinet secretary Yukio Edano told reporters earlier on Sunday that a partial meltdown in Unit 3 at the Fukushima facility was "highly possible".
"At the risk of raising further public concern, we cannot rule out the possibility of an explosion (another hydrogen explosion?)," Edano said. "If there is an explosion, however, there would be no significant impact on human health.

I wouldn't feel reassured by the above statement, especially combined with the new statement from NIRS:

Update from Nuclear Information Resources Service (NIRS):

UPDATE, 5:30 pm, Saturday, March 12, 2011. Reuters is reporting that Fukushima Daiichi Unit 3 has lost cooling capability: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/12/us-japan-quake-nuclear-cooling-idUSTRE72B3GI20110312

This is of particular concern since, unlike all of the other reactors in trouble, Unit 3 has been using plutonium-based MOX (mixed oxide) fuel since September 10, 2010. Consequences of an accident at a MOX-powered reactor would be even more severe than at a more typical uranium-powered reactor...

Ugh!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 12:19 PM

Charley, why is the news so damned quiet about all this?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 12:37 PM

BBC News

With the loss of power at reactor 3, and with its valves and pumps damaged by the tsunami, emergency workers were pumping in seawater mixed with boron - which disrupts nuclear chain reactions - to cool the rods.

But one report suggested the tops of the rods had briefly been exposed.

Technicians opened valves, allowing small amounts of radioactive vapour to escape in a bid to reduce the pressure in the unit.

They performed a similar operation on the first reactor, hours before the explosion that wrecked the building it was housed in.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 01:28 PM

One BBC story claimed that the people of Japan have developed a sort of folklore about the effects of radiation. They believe in monster babies and the like. There is a genuine concern that people evacuating from the area of the nuclear plants will be attacked.
More good news.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 01:35 PM

Potassium Iodide

Cesium mimics Potassium in the human body. If your body needs Potassium it will grab Cesium and put it right where Potassium would go.

Potassium Iodide liquid drops promotes uptake of the real elements and will take less of the radioactive mimics.

I wrote about these drops early in the thread because my sister died from radioactive Iodine about 10 years ago. The process is too dreadful to describe but suffice it to say that at her death she had had her stomach, thyroid, intestines , spllen and pancrous removed.
She survived on IV ATP for over a year.




The fuel at Fukashima is a Uranium Plutonium mixture.


HOW MANY PLUTONIUM ATOMS CAN YOU BREATH SAFELY.

As long as not even one atom remains lodged in your lung or passageway you can breathe as much as you want for a few seconds.

Even one atom    of PU lodged in your lung will kill tissue and then promote cancerous growth.

The Rocky Flats Plutonium plant in Colorado has released dozens of lbs of PU through fire and spill. So we are exposed to PU concievably very often and we still have a viable albeit cancer striken society.


Another report of yet a third reactor (not one of the Fukashima reactors) is reported to have lost all cooling to the core. Since this reactor is even closer to Tokyo the reporting strikes me as being realtively hush hush.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 01:39 PM

"...why is the news so damned quiet about all this?"

The 'news'...meaning mainstream media... is seeing what we see- many conflicting reports and opinions about what actually IS happening, as well as the significance and likely outcomes.
They have been roundly criticized in the past for jumping on ONE opinion and getting it wrong. Plus, so many people rely only on CNN or BBC or Fox...etc, that they could cause widespread confusion & panic if they say too much.
   I am seeing 'almost' all the guesses and possibilities at least mentioned on the news.
One of the most seemingly credible persons... a nuclear engineer... said that, in his opinion, even a 'meltdown' in THIS plant, given the conditions, while serious, would NOT breach the containment vessel and would not create a widespread radiation hazard.

So... I tune in every now & then to see if that has changed. So far, it hasn't. I simply cannot take constant dwelling on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Bettynh
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 01:42 PM

Well, I can't find it again, but I did see that one worker from the power plants has died of radiation poisoning. They're testing evacuees for radiation now. They've admitted that they found a few. Apparently, the population around the nuclear plants wasn't given iodine to keep on hand for this situation (I know coastal NH residents all have been issued a supply, to be taken only if danger threatens).

Soo... we're sending trauma doctors to an area well served by modern hospitals (remember the trauma stations set up in NY on 9/11 that had no business?). It will be a test to see if any emergency system is nimble enough to start sending oncologists and radiologists.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 02:06 PM

Here's what NIRS said about how the nuclear plant worker died:


UPDATE, 1 pm, Saturday, March 12, 2011. World Nuclear News is reporting that a worker who
was apparently trapped in the exhaust stack of Unit 1 at Fukushima Daiichi has died.

It's unclear whether he died from radiation poisoning, but he's certainly a victim of this unfolding disaster.

"...why is the news so damned quiet about all this?"

I agree with Bill on this one. Even the "experts are all thumbs when the meltdown comes" as we used to sing in the halcyon days of my youth.

Consult NIRS or Wikipedia for more accurate info. The media is good for general updates on what has happened, not why it happened or what might happen next.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 02:10 PM

Oh, and now the weather pattern has taken a bad turn for Japan. The winds for the last few days have been blowing out to sea. Starting tomorrow the winds will be blowing in from the sea, counterclockwise as a low passes off-shore.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 02:27 PM

Not to worry, Charlie. You will get to breathe the radioactive particles. Eventually the winds will change and carry radiation across the north Pacific, through Alaska and Canada, and eventually reach you in New England. Slow, but inevitable.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 02:32 PM

Donuel... "Even one atom    of PU lodged in your lung will kill tissue and then promote cancerous growth."

My old man (RCAF, Ground Nuclear Defense) told me a long time ago that tobacco causes emphysema and other nasties but it does not cause cancer directly. Rather, it allows cancer to be caused by sunstances which become lodged in the lung and are either radioactive themselves or are metals which can be affected by magnetic fields induced by close proximity to electric current.

And, no, I don't care to discuss it any further with anyone for any reason whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 03:30 PM

15 patients at a hospital six miles from the reactor have been diagnosed with radiation poisoning. One ambulance is "contaminated". Not sure what that means.

Meantime a volcano in southern Japan has erupted breaking windows and spewing debris. Those poor people, Enough is enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 04:02 PM

Tepco Press release regarding the state of Fukushima reactor complex

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 04:15 PM

Peter-

Thanks for posting the link to the company press release.

One detail is particularly disquieting to me:

"We are currently coordinating with the relevant authorities and
departments as to how to secure the cooling water to cool down
the water in the spent nuclear fuel pool."

The "spent fuel pool" is as I've mentioned above where they keep the highly radioactive "spent" fuel rods in storage after they are no longer useful as fuel for the reactor. They still need to be kept cool which is why they are submerged in the pool. If there is a loss of coolant supply to the pool, there is a risk of a catastrophic release of radiative isotopes from there. There is typically no containment provided or required for a spent fuel pool. There was once an incident in the States where the level of water in the spent fuel pool dropped nine feet before someone noticed what was happening; the problem was then corrected but everyone had a good scare.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 06:10 PM

Tepco releases not available at the moment, a new one probably being prepared. Importantly, the last one said water levels restored.
----------------------------

Looking at Hawai'i, the state seems not to have sustained any severe damage. Several homes near beach level lost, and some condo/rental units severely damaged. Seven homes lost on Kealakekua Bay. Current State estimates are several million dollars damage to beach installations, piers, etc. Perhaps $1 million damage at Kailua-Kona Pier. Big Island authorities breathed a sigh of relief that there was not more damage.
No lives lost, but a few minor injuries.
(Above gleaned from Honolulu Staradvertiser.com and Hawai'i Tribune-Herald (Hilo)).

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 06:26 PM

Another news update via NIRS:

UPDATE 2:30 pm, Sunday, March 13, 2011. Tokyo Electric Power is reporting that some six
feet of the core of Unit-3 remains uncovered and has been for some time despite efforts to
pump water into the core. Tepco speculates there may be leaking pipes and water is not
remaining in the core. A translation of part of the statement from our Japanese colleagues:
"The fuel's integrity has been considerably compromised. We are assessing a considerably
serious situation."

Six feet of core uncovered is not reassuring for Unit 3, not to be confused with Unit 1 whose reactor building blew its top off.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: bobad
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 06:58 PM

"Unit 1 whose reactor building blew its top off."

From what I gather that was sheet metal cladding of a building that was housing the overhead crane used to service the reactor blown apart due to a hydrogen gas explosion. The reactor containment housing remains intact.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 08:07 PM

Bobad-

We are both correct.

The building with housed the reactor containment vessel for Unit 1 was blown apart by a hydrogen gas explosion, leaving its frame exposed to the sunshine, while the site operators claim that the containment vessel has not been breached. Sorry if I was not being clear.

The video is more expressive as you can clearly see the initial shock wave of the explosion followed by smoke.

Now I was only aware of Vermont Yankee as a similar reactor to the ones at Fukushima. But there are actually some 23 nuclear reactors in the States similar in design to the ones that are melting down at the Fukushima complex. Here's the summary and assessment from NIRS:

General Electric Mark I Reactors in the United States

The Fukushima Daiichi Unit 1 reactor that exploded on Saturday, March 12, 2011, was a General Electric Mark I reactor. This design has been criticized by nuclear experts and even Nuclear Regulatory Commission staff for decades as being susceptible to explosion and containment failure.

As early as 1972, Dr. Stephen Hanuaer, an Atomic Energy Commission safety official, recommended that the pressure suppression system be discontinued and any further designs not be accepted for construction permits. Shortly thereafter, three General Electric nuclear engineers publicly resigned their prestigious positions citing dangerous shortcomings in the GE design.

An NRC analysis of the potential failure of the Mark I under accident conditions concluded in a 1985 report that Mark I failure within the first few hours following core melt would appear rather likely. In 1986, Harold Denton, then the NRC's top safety official, told an industry trade group that the "Mark I containment, especially being smaller with lower design pressure, in spite of the suppression pool, if you look at the WASH 1400 safety study, you'll find something like a 90% probability of that containment
failing."

For more information, see: http://www.nirs.org/factsheets/bwrfact.htm

Reactor   Location Size   Year operation began
Browns Ferry 1* Decatur, AL 1065 MW 1974
Browns Ferry 2* Decatur, AL 1118 MW 1974
Browns Ferry 3* Decatur, AL 1114 MW 1976
Brunswick 1* Southport, NC 938 MW 1976
Brunswick 2* Southport, NC 900 MW 1974
Cooper*   Nebraska City, NE 760 MW 1974
Dresden 2* Morris, IL 867 MW 1971
Dresden 3* Morris, IL 867 MW 1971
Duane Arnold* Cedar Rapids, IA 581 MW 1974
Hatch 1* Baxley, GA 876 MW 1974
Hatch 2* Baxley, GA 883 MW 1978
Fermi 2   Monroe, MI 1122 MW 1985
Hope Creek** Hancocks Bridge, NJ 1061 MW 1986
Fitzpatrick* Oswego, NY 852 MW 1974
Monticello* Monticello, MN 572 MW 1971
Nine Mile Point 1* Oswego, NY 621 MW 1974
Oyster Creek* Toms River, NJ 619 MW 1971
Peach Bottom 2* Lancaster, PA 1112 MW 1973
Peach Bottom 3* Lancaster, PA 1112 MW 1974
Pilgrim** Plymouth, MA 685 MW 1972
Quad Cities 1* Moline, IL 867 MW 1972
Quad Cities 2* Moline, IL 867 MW 1972
Vermont Yankee* Vernon, VT 620 MW 1973

*has received 20-year license extension from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission
**20-year license renewal extension is under review by Nuclear Regulatory Commission

Of course it's doubtful whether the NRC ever took into consideration a tsunami compromising the emergency back-up system.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 08:18 PM

The PM of Japan says the nuclear disaster is now stablized.

I am thinking that the reports that the temperatures are unchanged despite pouring water on the reactors is very odd. Is the gauge broken? Did the water go on the floor or into the reactor?

These old and patchwork welded repaired containment vessels are brittle and if explosed to high heat and cold at the same time would break them like glass.

In NY the water came out of the tap below freezing and would break our glasses ar room temperature regularly. this old steel holding 3000 degrees and then exposed to 40 degree water would crack the metal.

At any rate while it is very worrisom I hope that all turns out no worse than what has already occured.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 08:21 PM

But we can be thankful
And tranquil and proud
For man's been endowed with a mushroom shaped cloud.
And we know for certain that some lovely day
Someone will set the spark off...





And we will all be blown away.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 08:28 PM

Charley, to get an idea of the age of this reactor this car was brand new when engineers were putting the final touches on the design.
1958-1959 top of the line model


You mentioned the poor quality of the reporting. It is truely awful. The young editors and the pretty talking heads confuse million for billion, feet for meters, hours for years. Gross mistakes that are never corrected.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 08:33 PM

How hot is the containment vessel?

Where is the water going?

Where does it end up?


PS Bill Nye the Science guy absolutely embarrased himself and our nation with hisignorant remarks regarding these nuclear reactor malfunctions.

I don;t want the industry spokesmen, I want the real physicists with real data.

The Gov of PA at the time of the 3 MIle Island breach said the one critical factor is acting only after precise and accurate information has been collected.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 08:34 PM

I don't know what the solar, wind and especially tidal industries are presently doing in Japan, and everywhere (although I do subscribe to an on-line site..mostly talks about Denmark it seems) but they sure as heck had better up their involvement..as should we all.

I don't know what they will do about all the debris..some of it contains bodies of course so I don't know what can or should be done in the case of autos say..compacting them..\check them all first of course if not too damaged...some probably has been washed out to sea already...mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 08:42 PM

Donuel-

You and I make mistakes but some of what the national news anchors are saying is truly outrageous.

I was just checking Wikipedia and they now have an excellent cutaway drawing of a typical BWR Mark I Containment, as used in units 1 to 5 at the Fukushima complex: click here for update!

One of the CNN "experts" was literally drooling at the prospect of selling the Japanese the next generation of nuclear power plant.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 11:14 PM

Remember the Fukashima N plant #3 that exploded and the top half of the building was entirely blown away?

Well now the lower half of the building is entirely gone and the metal girders are twisted and warped through out.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 11:29 PM

It was a hydrogen explosion, so they said on TV and Reuters.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 11:54 PM

The links off of this site supplied by Charley Noble is indeed noble.

http://www.nirs.org/reactorwatch/accidents/Fukushimafactsheet.pdf
New updates are being made and are forthcoming.


like wheels within wheels you can find the specs and cross sections of the plant was was repaired and what was not.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 12:28 AM

Two reactors now have lost their containment buildings but the reactors are hoped to be intact.

Paul Carroll, nuclear expert, was plain spoken.

"The explosions we have seen are hydrogen gas explosions abut the containment vessels are presumed to be intact. If the containment vessels themselves should breach then we are talking about an area 1,000's of square miles that will never be safe for human habitation. If even one reactor should not merely breach but allow for a critical mass explosion it will ignire not only its 100 tons of nuclear fuel of unranium and plutonium but all the other reactors within its blast radiuw which is unknown due to the unprecedented amount of fissile material."


There must be nearly 10 reactors that would be within ground zero of the blast and many more that would no longer able to be tended or manned remotely. NO one ever expected we essentailly built a million ton nuclear bomb.


So far seawater is said to be keeping it cool enough to not get worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 06:56 AM

Reuters

"Shares in several Asian companies tumbled on Monday after the massive earthquake and tsunami in Japan that likely killed more than 10,000 people.

While manufacturers and automakers in Japan fell, construction stocks rose on expectations of increased demand. Coal and steel shares elsewhere also gained on anticipated demand in Japan."


Makes one proud to be human! Bloodsucking bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:12 AM

Paul Carroll

Organization: Ploughshares
Position: Policy analyst,Professional
Areas of Expertise: North Korea, Nuclear weapons development, Weapons of Mass Destruction, Security, National Security, Peace movement, Prevention of War
Personal Website: Ploughshares

Paul Carroll (CA): Program Director, Ploughshares Fund; Former Program Analyst, U.S. Department of Energy; Former Research Analyst, U.S. Congress Office of Technology Assessment; recently visited North Korea; North Korea may be choosing to restart nuclear program to get direct talks with U.S., international community can still engage with North Korea on disarmament

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:33 AM

Nuclear plant #2 now has all of its fuel rods exposed to air.

Paul Gunther says 9 Japanese Nuclear Plants are now in deep trouble.

NYT wrote that radiation clouds will last for months.



I saw a brief video of what truely appeared like a rescue by helicopter of a person at the Fukashima plant.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:34 AM

Reactor 2 at Fukushima Daiichi has now lost all its coolant, with the core fully exposed (which means meltdown is inevitable).

An aftershock tsunami is just about to hit the coast at Fukushima.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:35 AM

The 3 US warshipas including an aircraft carrier sent to Japan have now pulled back 25 miles because of the radioactive plumes floating out to sea.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:43 AM

Incidentally, Paul Carroll's area of expertise as it pertains to Project Ploughshares is nuclear WEAPONS, not reactors.

To FOX news, an expert is anyone who can speak a complete sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:02 AM

I can do complete sentences:

Criticallity is what is now continuing in Japan.

A criticality accident, sometimes referred to as an excursion or a power excursion, is an accidental increasing nuclear chain reaction in a fissile material, such as enriched uranium or plutonium. This releases a surge of neutron radiation which is highly dangerous to humans and causes induced radioactivity in the surroundings.

A critical or supercritical nuclear fission (one that is sustained in power or increasing in power) normally is supposed to occur only inside reactor cores and (very occasionally) inside some test facilities. A criticality accident occurs when a critical reaction is achieved unintentionally. Although dangerous, the low densities of fissile material and the long insertion time involved in these events limit the fission yield and peak power, preventing them from becoming a large scale nuclear explosion. The heat released by the nuclear reaction will typically cause the fissile material to expand, so that the nuclear reaction becomes subcritical again within a few seconds.

In the history of atomic power development, fewer than a dozen criticality accidents have occurred in collections of fissile materials outside nuclear reactors, but most of these have resulted in death, by radiation exposure, of the nearest person(s) to the event. However, none have resulted in explosions.


The idea of a nuclear explosion has been deemed impossible at a crippled nuclear plant. I my humble opinion this is simply not true.
The factors that the nuclear fule also contains plutonium is what makes the unthinkable runaway chain reaction a possiblility, no matter how small.



They are working furiously to find a solution to cool the core," said Mark Hibbs, a senior associate at the Nuclear Policy Program for the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

Nuclear agency officials said Japan was injecting seawater into the core -- an indication, Hibbs said, of "how serious the problem is and how the Japanese had to resort to unusual and improvised solutions to cool the reactor core."

Officials declined to say what the temperature was inside the troubled reactor, Unit 1. At 2,200 degrees Fahrenheit (1,200 degrees Celsius), the zirconium casings of the fuel rods can react with the cooling water and create hydrogen. At 4,000 F (2,200 C), the uranium fuel pellets inside the rods start to melt, the beginning of a meltdown

Japan is using a plutonium and uranium mix inside their reactors which make claims that a nuclear style explosion is impossible an unsubstatiated claim, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:02 AM

With regard to Unit 3 at the Fukushima complex from the Wikipedia update link:

"Explosion of Reactor Building

At 11:15 JST on 14 March 2011, a building surrounding Reactor 3 of Fukushima 1 exploded as well, presumably due to the ignition of built up hydrogen gas.[97][98] There is no health risk reported, though 600 people have been ordered to stay indoors. Within minutes, it was reported that as with Reactor 1, the outer reactor building was blown apart, but the inner containment vessel was not breached. Eleven people were reported injured in the blast."

The fuel rods in Unit 3 are even more dangerous than the more conventional fuel rods in the other reactors in the complex, being plutonium-based MOX (mixed oxide) fuel.

This is not a good development (sorry for such understatement but it's early in the morning), and does not bode well for Unit 2 at the same complex which also has experienced loss of coolant.

Meanwhile there are reports of similar loss of coolant problems in a neighboring nuclear power complex, and at a third complex.

The US fleet off-shore has monitored increasing radiation and is being shifted out of the "plume."

So now I'm reminded of one of our chants as we marched on the Midland nuclear power plant in Michigan in the late 1970's:

One rotten nuke, two rotten nukes, see how they melt!

Another academic exercise to do while waiting for more grim news from Japan might be to identify how many of the reactors, similar to those in trouble in Japan, in the States (listed above) are located in major earthquake zones. None are listed for California, Oregon or Washington. Perhaps, only the Cooper nuclear plant in Nebraska City, NE, 760 MW, 1974.

Of course there are other types of nuclear power plants in other West Coast states and if any of them had a loss of coolant due to an earthquake, and their back-up systems failed, we would risk nuclear meltdown as well. No one really knows what the consequences of that would be (not good!) but we may soon learn in Japan.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:12 AM

Charley reactor #2 now has a fully exposed core.

Make that

One little reactor is now melting
two little reactor is now exposed
three little reactor may go critical

makes three little 500,000 ton bombs


That is not to say they will go up like a bomb.
I imagine that the explosion would be more like the site glowing brighter and brighter in a slowly expanding plasma of fission that it would look more like a slow motion ball of light than the instant detonation of a nuke.


BUT PUTTING THE IDEA OF A REAL HUGE ATOMIC EXPLOSION ON ICE FOR NOW...
the idea of 5000 degree molten uranium and plutonium burning into the earth and sexloding grand clouds of steam as sea water and the metal merge...is in a real sense even more horrendous.

It would last as a radioactive geyser for years.