Will trad music die when we do?

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 11:49 AM

Bruce
Thank you. I am now 67 and still look forward to each Thursday night when I meet my friends at DCFC, have a beer or three, sing old songs and enjoy the singing of others. We don't have a singaround each week, tonight is partly a salute to St Patrick's day and once a month we have a spot of 20 to 30 minutes by a friend on a subject of his or her choice. Neither of these ventures were mine.
QED
Ian

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 12:05 PM

Most welcome, Ian.

Your eloquent post brought into focus for me that I feel the same way. Just couldn't put it in words that made sense. I'm 63. Thank you, again.

Bruce

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 12:57 PM

I'll admit to skimming this thread, so please accept my apologies if I cover ground that has already been covered.

Short answer. No.

Long answer. Yes. And long live traditional music.

Folklore is at heart a social product - that is what makes what we do different from pop or classical music. While we might perform it on a stage from time to time, it really belongs at the sing-arounds, in the pubs, and in the home. And on the picket lines. (Has anyone else noticed that folks suddenly want to hear union songs? Yay!)

You can make a case that shape note songs aren't traditional, because they're written down in choral arrangements - but it's hard to make a case that shape note _singing_ isn't traditional.

But the tradition does change. I hope that the old ballads that I love will never go away, and that the musical styles I love will never go away, but I have to admit that the tradition can and will change, if it is to survive.

Someone recently commented to me that the autoharp isn't really a folk traditional instrument because it has only been around for 110 years. But in that time, it worked its way into oral tradition so it is a folk instrument. Guitars are a recent innovation in much Anglo-American folk music, and I'm not complaining. How old is Travis picking? Does that make it any less traditional?

There is a wonderful poem by Carl Sandburg about language that encapsulates how I feel about tradition:

    LANGUAGES

    There are no handles upon a language
    Whereby men take hold of it
    And mark it with signs for its remembrance.
    It is a river, this language,
    Once in a thousand years
    Breaking a new course
    Changing its way to the ocean.
    It is mountain effluvia
    Moving to valleys
    And from nation to nation
    Crossing borders and mixing.
    Languages die like rivers.
    Words wrapped round your tongue today
    And broken to shape of thought
    Between your teeth and lips speaking
    Now and today
    Shall be faded hieroglyphics
    Ten thousand years from now.
    Sing--and singing--remember
    Your song dies and changes
    And is not here to-morrow
    Any more than the wind
    Blowing ten thousand years ago.

I say these things not to get into a debate about what constitutes folk music or traditional music (please no!) but rather to provide a modicum of encouragement. As long as parents sing to their babies, traditional music lives. As long as pimply college kids get out their guitars, whether it's for the joy of singing or for, shall we say, romantic purposes, traditional music lives.

And if we keep singing the songs that we love, be they recent or a thousand years old, they might just stay in or become part of the tradition. It merely requires that we sing with each other and to each other rather than at each other, because that's what folk music is.

And that's why I love it.

Dan

PS: I don't plan on dying anytime soon!

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:59 PM

Folklore is at heart a social product - that is what makes what we do different from pop or classical music.

Nice post - but I'd argue all music just as social as any other and can't be differentiated in such a way. I might point to Karoake nights, or Choral Societies or local orchestras and bands at weddings. All music involves community! It's all covered by the 1954 Definition which, as I say, doesn't mention Genre...

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: GUEST,Sieffe
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 05:50 PM

Down here in little old New Zealand we have young (under 20!) people performing trad stuff and wowing the audience . . fiddles, dulcimers and all! Hope it progresses to a mainstream audience . .

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 09:29 PM

When we are dead ≠ fewer and fewer people are attracted to traditional music.

As Jim says, the tradition is alive and well, at least here in Ireland, though it's absorbing new and varied elements, which means it does grow and change. But the whole reason this happens is because the kids - or enough of them to sustain life - pick it up and run with it. I know this isn't the only place where that's true.

I grew up in 50's California, and the music that influenced me was mostly what I heard on the radio and my parents' records. But I responded most strongly to the folky material and always followed - and later played - it. Certain things just lead you. This is part of human nature and I don't think it's going to change.

There are loads of "folk songs" (and tunes too) that were written by someone consciously working in a traditional style, which then actually become so by dint of the fact that they get sung and heard and re-sung and take on a life of their own. I don't even see any real distinction between the two. How often has something by Ewan MacColl or Woody Guthrie been introduced as "an old sailor/cowboy/whatever song"? That's the first step in the immortality process. It's what keeps our culture alive and relevant, and these songs will continue to speak to people down through the generations. As some of them have already done, for centuries. They sing the universal truths and there will always be ears to pick them up and voices to carry them on along the next stretch of the road.

There's no logical reason why, given my background and influences, I should love and "know" traditional and trad-style songs above the rest, but I do. I started out listening to The Kingston Trio and plastic shamrock-&-leprechaun paddywhackery (because that's all there was where I grew up) but something drew me, until one day I found myself playing the real thing in the real place.



---

AL - When they assign you your cloud & nightie: For a C chord, the root note is on a red string; for an F chord it's on a black string. Then you're outta luck cuz the G7's based on a white string and there are are 5 of those. (Clue: it's the one next to the F...)

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 09:43 PM

Does anybody remember the ending of Charlotte's Web? Where in the ensuing years after Charlotte dies, there are always zillions of new little baby spiders, and eventually they fly off in the wind... but:

There were always two or three who stayed around and kept Wilbur company and talked to him, so he was never alone. Even if most drifted away, enough always remained behind to keep Charlotte's spirit alive. That's the sort of thing I mean.

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 10:12 PM

DanH: So I don't think there is any lack of young folkies. They're just not coming out to the old-timer's jams or concerts, but thats another matter entirely.

Spot on! I've mentioned several times here that locally there are 2 entirely separate "folky scenes"...one where the youngsters hang out, and one where the oldsters play and sing, and there's very little interaction (though I'm trying to encourage it). go to some of the "oldster" sessions and you'd be convinced that folk'll die out in 20-25 years, but the kids are there... just in different pubs and venues!

I was at an open mic session away from home this week...my "Banks of the Sweet Primroses" went down very well with the mainly under 35 audience (as did my version of Pink Floyd's "Grantchester Meadows", but hey, that's another tale...more of them actually recognised "Banks" than recognised "GM"!). And there were half a dozen under 30s there performing mainly either trad songs or their own compositions "in a folky style"...but not the mawkish self-referential stuff of so much modern "commercial folk". I actually asked for the source of one song that sounded *very* trad to me, to be told the performer had written it a couple of years ago.

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 10:52 PM

Bonnie, you have written something I am gonna save. As a btw, I finally met a for-real in-person harp player. Irish background gal. Had the opportunity to ask some things that had always puzzled me about harps and I now understand why you think they make such a beautiful sound. I was blown away by the skill she exhibited and the verve with which she carried it off. Beautiful.

I personally think there's a place for that instrument in rock n roll. I think the 'tension' that could be created by the genres is worth looking at.

##############################################################



In a pique of morbid despair I started this thread. Years ago I felt a kind of dread that we--all of us--were going to lose our music. The radios and tv's' were horrible, and I quit music completely--mostly to hide away from what I felt. I'm not proud of that, 'cause my mama didn't raise no quitters'.

Lately, I see there is hope and promise--lots of it--thanks to you folks.

This is definitely a Kodak moment for me.

Thank you all so much.

BM


PS   This laptop is for some reason questioning my spelling by putting some red lines under wrods :see, did it again!: Good thing it does that, becuz I just misspelled definately. I'm gonna stop looking at red lines.

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: J-boy
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 01:54 AM

All music will die when we do.

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 01:59 AM

No way man. This is the computer age. We take a copy with us. Believe that.

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: J-boy
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 02:30 AM

In that case could you download me into Winona Ryder's body please?

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: michaelr
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 03:34 AM

Lovely post, Bonnie.

Cheer up, Bruce. There is hope yet. Maybe you will even get back out there? It can't but enrich the world.

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 03:49 AM

You're right, 999. I have it on the Highest Authority that you can take your MP3s with you to the hereafter. You'll have to leave the vinyl and CDs behind, however.
I know these things because I have a Bachelor's Degree in Theology. That also qualifies me to sell insurance and work as a Government Investigator (I chose the latter, but it was a Hobson's choice)....

-Joebro-

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 04:33 AM

My Uncle Hobson whom for years I'd wished was my Uncle Haliburton? Forsooth!

But thank you.

Michael, it just don't matter anymore. The coming thing--guess--give up?

The Busboys.

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 05:21 AM

If Heaven there is, it will be Vinyl only. Racks of it for a glorious eternity!

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 05:23 AM

I would be your groupie, Al
If you were not a marsupial
You could join our tradition too
If you weren't a kangaroo.

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 05:40 AM

If Heaven there be, we won't need recordings - we'll be able to hear everything played and sung by the greats themselves. All the way back to the minstrels of the original Troubadours.

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 06:30 AM

All the way back to the minstrels of the original Troubadours.

What about before that though? I'm hoping to hear the music of the music of the Ancient Egyptian Sun Priests and the Beaker People and Bogomils as well as the diverse sounds going down at the court of Alfonso El Sabio. In heaven I'd hope to hear the first music that ever stirred in the hearts of humanity hundreds of thousands of years before the Troubadours.

Talking of Troubadours though have a look at THIS - 7.19 in you get RENE ZOSSO singing Farai Un Vers by Guillem de Peitieu. How's that for heaven?

Seriously though - for those of us without religion heaven is vinyl. If ever you're near Carlisle be sure to check out the antiquarian & classical CD shop near the cathedral. The vaults are stuffed with old vinyl - mostly classical - with the old safe room (complete with old safe) devoted to Early Music - endless David Munrow boxsets! Overpriced maybe, but a vaunted heaven all the same.

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 06:37 AM

' In heaven I'd hope to hear the first music that ever stirred in the hearts of humanity hundreds of thousands of years before the Troubadours.'

Speaking as a kangaroo, I have trouble even getting a floorspot. For some of us, the struggle goes on......

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 08:12 AM

Do they even have kangaroos in heaven? I'm told of a feral wallaby population in the UK - escapees from private collections going walkabout in the Yorkshire Dales. The only 'roos on the Fylde live on the Wallaby Walk in Blackpool Zoo; word is they get out to the various local Folk Clubs during the week and maybe get the occasional floorspot too, but never a booking...

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 12:55 PM

There was quite a flock? herd? pride? of feral wallabies for many years around The Roaches in Staffordshire, though not heard of them inthe Dales.

I've seen some in the past at The Roaches while climbing and I believe a dead one was found about 3-4 years ago, but I don't think there's been a confirmed sighting of a live one for a few years now.

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 04:56 AM

Oddly enough, the collective noun for Wallabies is Mob, same as for Kangaroos. I say oddly because I've never felt in anything other than charmed by their collectivity, and the word Mob is anything but charming!

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: GUEST,Aan Whittle
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 06:20 AM

Yes if we kangaroos called melodeon players a mob, they'd be acting all upset. Why are you picking on us, just cos we haven't got a pouch and can't box with our feet?

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 06:40 AM

And the prevailing folklore is still that Kangaroo means I Don't Know in some Aboriginal tongue, assuming there's more than one. I think melodeon means the same thing actually, though guitar is related to Jehovah in some way - the Holy Unspeakable name of which guitar is an occult and codified approximation like something out of a Dan Brown novel. Is it only fiddle that works as a noun and a verb? For sure the associations of a non-musical fiddler aren't in any way positive...

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 06:58 AM

You are purposely confusing the issue. As Richard Bridge has pointed out (on numerous occasions) Kangaroos (and most other families and species born outside Rottingdean) are not allowed to be folksingers by the 1954 definition.

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 02:20 PM

Some years ago I was drinking outside a pub on the Staffordshire moorlands and a chap at the next table said 'there's that wallaby with the wooden leg'. I waited for the punchline to the joke but turned to see a marsupial with an artificial limb on the opposite bank.

Apparently there was a road accident and the leg was replaced. The critter appeared perfectly mobile so far as I could tell.

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: PHJim
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 02:41 PM

I have jumped to the bottom of this long thread and, much to my surprise, the discussion seems to have gone from the death of traditional music to a discourse on marsupials. When this happens, is the proper etiquette to post about the original topic, or to continue the new thread?

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 03:16 PM

Either, would be my guess - just write whatever's on your mind to say!

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: saulgoldie
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 03:18 PM

I don't know if this is bad manners, but...before I noticed this thread, I started my own thread that is sort of parallel:

thread.cfm?threadid=136485&messages=1

Saul

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 03:42 PM

arrrrrgh! Little matey! If 'ee be keepin' a weather eye open for a seafarin' kangaroo with one leg - ee's been sold some very bad acid indeed!

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 03:48 PM

As Louis Armstrond said: All music music is folk music, I sure ain't heard no kangaroo sing a song. This opens the door to all sorts of Kangaroo Definers - and other Marsupials too of course, but saving the occasional cross-bread Kangorphant, the Kangaroo is the biggest and occupy a special place in Northumbrian folklore on account of their historic relationship with Saint Cuthbert during the time of his hermetic retreat on Inner Farne which was hitherto inhabit by hideous Goat Demons. Sadlt, the indigenous Northumbrian White Kangaroos is now long extinct, though a stuffed one used to reside in the old Handcock Museum in Newcastle before its recent makeover, and they still feature from time to time in the annals of Cryptozoology where the occaisional sighting is reported usually in the vicinity of Chillingham Castle on December 24th.

Boomers, sir? How many did you say? Six, eh? Snow white as well! I bet they were, sir. Now just blow into this bag if you will.

A Wallaby with a wooden leg. The perfect end to a perfect day!

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: widowmaker
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 12:44 PM

No it is a living, breathing thing and as long as we have air to breathe it will continue. It is all around us the noise of Traffic, The songs of Birds, the laughter of children this is FOLK MUSIC. By the way Bonnie one of my fav nights in folk music was listening to you and Packie at Te Topic in Bradford, Happy Days. Regards.

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 01:21 PM

Ah, cheers! The Topic was always one of our favourite gigs (nice Indian or Chinese restaurant not too far away, I seem to recall). I'll pass on your kind words to Packie when I next speak to him on the phone (we live at opposite ends of Ireland these days...)

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 07:32 PM

Looking at some of the findings of the Horizon Research Foundation, the OPs proposition seems unlikely:
Old Folkies Never Die

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: GUEST,Rob Davis
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 02:06 AM

The traditional song "The Old Sow" is where the misheard lyric "Idley Dan" and "Susannah the Bollicle Man" occur. I have a recording of this on tape and can mp3 it for interested parties.

Rob Davis
Telford, Shropshire UK
http://www.robdavis.webhop.org

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 04:25 AM

I don't think it will die with us. Given the wide variety of types of music that survives (gregorian chant, medaeval madrigals, barbshop quartets, west gallery, ...) it would be odd of trad disappeared. Certinaly, it will go in and out of fashion, but that's something else.

And there's another factor that is, I suspect, underrated. Last week I was was in an ersatz 'pub' along with a whole bunch of people (perhaps 100) of various ages and backgrounds. They were not drawn together by a love of music, or any such. Yet, when the pub produced a pianist and started on the stuff like 'Down at the old Bull and Bush, Tipperary' and so on, almost everyone joined in with gusto. I stress here that this is not exactly my music of choice, and that it is not what the OP meant by trad (I assume). Yet there was something important happening that was truly 'folkish' in my book: a group of very ordinary people getting together and singing just for the fun of it. No higher purpose, as a church might have. No idea that 'we are a choir'. No competitiveness. Just singing for the sheer enjoyment of it.

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: Janet Stevenson (troll alert contact max)
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 04:29 AM

Traditional music will never die. It is more popular than ever here in Kent.

http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=richard+hoff+bridge#page=0

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 04:29 AM

Interesting post, Rob. I love this song very dearly & sing it myself regularly, but only ever to pigs and kangaroos... Here it is sang by Albert Richardson - the one & only:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0XlfNsb6gc

*

Following on from Glueman's Wooden Legged Wallaby, is the story of the Pig with the Wooden Leg which has been a party piece of mine for some years.

And though Folk might pass away without a whisper, such things are sure to live on eternally.

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: Janet Stevenson (troll alert contact max)
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 04:31 AM

Excellent video Suibhne Astray, thank you.

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 04:40 AM

I suppose it will never die, especially as many very talented musicians have ensured recordings of traditional music have a future.

Future?

Yep.

One the performer's royalties are no longer there, there is a huge wealth of traditional (non copyrighted) music waiting to replace classical music as the choice for lifts, call centre waiting tunes and shopping centre cafes.

The young turks that some many treat with disdain are doing a hell of a lot more than most in ensuring a future, even if it may be an irritating one.....

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: JHW
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 05:33 AM

I have had it said to me already
"No point in going to folk clubs; all the old singers are dead."

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: stallion
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 05:42 AM

I have just eleminated five paragraphs of rant.
Is the music going to die out with our generation?
Not so long as people gather together and play and sing music for the fun of it.

Youngsters of today just want to make loads of money and be on the telly, the music is just a vehicle and they are all churning out the same old garbage and thinking they have tallent. The punters are just as bad, putting with having their ears blasted out when all you can hear is boom boom boom and white noise.

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 06:14 AM

"The young turks that some many treat with disdain are doing a hell of a lot more than most in ensuring a future, even if it may be an irritating one....."

I don't know about the 'young turks' of Britfolk (all half dozen of them.) This new revival seems kinda lame to me. There's more interesting innovation to be found by rummaging around in the archives of the 6o's revival I reckon.

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 06:21 AM

I think that there are periodically waves of revival of interest in traditional music styles...usually when people begin reacting against the vapidity of the pop music scene (and culture) of their own time and start looking back in history for something more "honest" (as they would see it).

It happened in the 1950s and early 1960s. So why wouldn't it happen again at some point?

Therefore, I very much doubt that traditional music is going to die out along with our generation.

I will always be preserved in various small enclaves, go into periods where it is less recognized by the cultural mainstream, and then a new wave of interest will probably rise again at some point, maybe when one would least expect it.

I plan to reincarnate when that happens. ;-)

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: Silas
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 07:21 AM

No. It didn't die with Bert LLoyd, or Cyril Tawny or Fred Jordan or Scan Tester or Peter Bellamy or even Mike Waterson. There is not just 'our generation' there are loads of 'kids' interested in it and performing at leat as well, if not better than many 'old timers'. It is here to stay and it gets better and better.

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 07:59 AM

A fairly recent survey by the Trad Arts Team in B'ham sponsored by the NFSDS shows that over the past 3 years interest including attendances in Folk/trad music has risen to it's highest level since the 60's Folk revival and is still growing. This question was asked in the mid 80's in the negative but here we are over 25 years later with trad music stronger than ever. will it survive us? Yes good music always will

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: JohnH
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 08:13 AM

@Livelylass. Your right again!

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 08:28 AM

Livelylass is right. or at least in proving my point on a couple of related threads doing the rounds.

Yes, there was a huge "movement" and many of the folk compilations on iTunes are from the late '60s and '70s, but this is as much to do with copyright and price as the quality of the music.

The essence of folk as a musical term, be it ballad style, cadences, incorporation of English speaking musical styles or whatever, is running a thread in the so called mainstream that some write off as being irrelevant. Irrelevant? really?

Men in sandals and women in ethnic skirts may not have much of a future, but the music they help to keep alive is live and kicking. really kicking. Flick to Sky Arts or BBC 4 and you see Seth Lakeman, Kate Rusby, Imagined Village, Richard Thompson Band... The old and the new, introducing the folk tradition to new audiences. Granted, not audiences that whinge about the quality of beer, any political view other than theirs, how hard it is to be a reed cutter in Norfolk or (at least once a night) a song about being an American caught up in Vietnam... (The nearest I do is sing Elton John's Daniel so no better myself I might add.)

But taking trad music (as I believe the thread is about) and doing what people have been doing for hundreds of years, adapting it to today.

(A classic example was yesterday on BBC Radio3, playing music used in BBC programs over the years. They played the theme from Blue Peter, hornpipe called Barnacle Bill, as many will know. What many may not know is that prior to Ralph Vaughan Williams getting his hands on it, all known references to the tune were" Bollocky Bill." A bit too much perhaps for Valerie Singleton and a much younger me....) Hence trad does not die, it evolves, t'was ever thus.

Subject: RE: Will trad music die when we do?
From: Andrez
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 08:34 AM

I'll drink to that Guest DesiC !!!!!!!!!!

Cheers,

Andrez