Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011

olddude 19 Mar 11 - 04:05 PM
Little Hawk 19 Mar 11 - 04:06 PM
BTNG 19 Mar 11 - 04:11 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 19 Mar 11 - 04:42 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 19 Mar 11 - 04:45 PM
kendall 19 Mar 11 - 05:06 PM
bobad 19 Mar 11 - 05:07 PM
GUEST,number 6 19 Mar 11 - 05:21 PM
Bonzo3legs 19 Mar 11 - 05:30 PM
Arthur_itus 19 Mar 11 - 05:36 PM
BTNG 19 Mar 11 - 05:37 PM
bobad 19 Mar 11 - 05:40 PM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 19 Mar 11 - 05:41 PM
GUEST,999 19 Mar 11 - 05:41 PM
gnu 19 Mar 11 - 05:45 PM
bobad 19 Mar 11 - 05:54 PM
GUEST,999 19 Mar 11 - 06:02 PM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 19 Mar 11 - 06:03 PM
GUEST,number 6 19 Mar 11 - 06:08 PM
Jack Campin 19 Mar 11 - 06:17 PM
bobad 19 Mar 11 - 06:31 PM
GUEST,number 6 19 Mar 11 - 06:32 PM
GUEST,number 6 19 Mar 11 - 06:53 PM
BTNG 19 Mar 11 - 07:09 PM
skipy 19 Mar 11 - 07:40 PM
GUEST,number 6 19 Mar 11 - 07:49 PM
GUEST,number 6 19 Mar 11 - 07:57 PM
Jack Campin 19 Mar 11 - 08:02 PM
artbrooks 19 Mar 11 - 08:06 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Mar 11 - 08:10 PM
skipy 19 Mar 11 - 08:11 PM
olddude 19 Mar 11 - 08:14 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Mar 11 - 08:20 PM
Jack Campin 19 Mar 11 - 08:32 PM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 19 Mar 11 - 08:35 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Mar 11 - 08:41 PM
Rapparee 19 Mar 11 - 08:48 PM
bobad 19 Mar 11 - 08:54 PM
MarkS 19 Mar 11 - 10:13 PM
Charley Noble 19 Mar 11 - 10:26 PM
J-boy 19 Mar 11 - 10:45 PM
GUEST,999 20 Mar 11 - 01:03 AM
GUEST,999 20 Mar 11 - 02:24 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 20 Mar 11 - 03:27 AM
Richard Bridge 20 Mar 11 - 03:27 AM
Arthur_itus 20 Mar 11 - 04:20 AM
InOBU 20 Mar 11 - 05:07 AM
GUEST,bankley 20 Mar 11 - 05:24 AM
Allan Conn 20 Mar 11 - 05:45 AM
Brian May 20 Mar 11 - 06:08 AM
Bonzo3legs 20 Mar 11 - 06:13 AM
Bonzo3legs 20 Mar 11 - 06:20 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Mar 11 - 07:33 AM
Arnie 20 Mar 11 - 07:37 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Mar 11 - 07:38 AM
Bobert 20 Mar 11 - 08:13 AM
Bonzo3legs 20 Mar 11 - 09:12 AM
The Sandman 20 Mar 11 - 09:24 AM
GUEST,number 6 20 Mar 11 - 09:26 AM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 20 Mar 11 - 09:48 AM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Mar 11 - 09:53 AM
Little Hawk 20 Mar 11 - 10:20 AM
bobad 20 Mar 11 - 10:50 AM
akenaton 20 Mar 11 - 11:52 AM
akenaton 20 Mar 11 - 11:55 AM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 20 Mar 11 - 12:04 PM
Bobert 20 Mar 11 - 12:24 PM
JHW 20 Mar 11 - 12:38 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 20 Mar 11 - 01:14 PM
Richard Bridge 20 Mar 11 - 01:40 PM
Don Firth 20 Mar 11 - 03:00 PM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 20 Mar 11 - 03:14 PM
bobad 20 Mar 11 - 03:30 PM
Bobert 20 Mar 11 - 03:36 PM
bobad 20 Mar 11 - 03:38 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 20 Mar 11 - 03:39 PM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 20 Mar 11 - 03:43 PM
Greg F. 20 Mar 11 - 03:45 PM
gnu 20 Mar 11 - 04:53 PM
Greg F. 20 Mar 11 - 05:07 PM
gnu 20 Mar 11 - 05:29 PM
Greg F. 20 Mar 11 - 05:40 PM
bobad 20 Mar 11 - 06:20 PM
Richard Bridge 20 Mar 11 - 07:20 PM
Ron Davies 20 Mar 11 - 07:35 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Mar 11 - 08:43 PM
Little Hawk 20 Mar 11 - 09:28 PM
Ron Davies 20 Mar 11 - 10:06 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 20 Mar 11 - 10:23 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Mar 11 - 10:51 PM
Ron Davies 20 Mar 11 - 11:08 PM
Little Hawk 20 Mar 11 - 11:59 PM
BTNG 21 Mar 11 - 12:04 AM
Little Hawk 21 Mar 11 - 12:29 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Mar 11 - 12:40 AM
akenaton 21 Mar 11 - 04:04 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Mar 11 - 04:13 AM
DMcG 21 Mar 11 - 04:28 AM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 21 Mar 11 - 04:35 AM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 21 Mar 11 - 04:35 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 21 Mar 11 - 04:54 AM
DMcG 21 Mar 11 - 05:53 AM
Charley Noble 21 Mar 11 - 08:18 AM
GUEST,Number 6 21 Mar 11 - 08:43 AM
GUEST,Patsy 21 Mar 11 - 10:48 AM
Bonzo3legs 21 Mar 11 - 11:07 AM
GUEST,number 6 21 Mar 11 - 11:34 AM
Lighter 21 Mar 11 - 11:55 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Mar 11 - 12:02 PM
Bonzo3legs 21 Mar 11 - 12:51 PM
GUEST 21 Mar 11 - 01:38 PM
GUEST,999 21 Mar 11 - 01:41 PM
Ron Davies 21 Mar 11 - 02:25 PM
Little Hawk 21 Mar 11 - 04:25 PM
akenaton 21 Mar 11 - 05:15 PM
GUEST,Steve 21 Mar 11 - 05:54 PM
akenaton 21 Mar 11 - 06:06 PM
Little Hawk 21 Mar 11 - 06:22 PM
GUEST,Steve 21 Mar 11 - 06:52 PM
bobad 21 Mar 11 - 07:10 PM
GUEST,Steve 21 Mar 11 - 07:23 PM
Richard Bridge 21 Mar 11 - 07:25 PM
Ron Davies 21 Mar 11 - 08:40 PM
Charley Noble 21 Mar 11 - 10:31 PM
gnu 21 Mar 11 - 10:44 PM
GUEST,number 6 21 Mar 11 - 11:02 PM
GUEST,number 6 21 Mar 11 - 11:11 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 22 Mar 11 - 01:58 AM
akenaton 22 Mar 11 - 03:40 AM
Teribus 22 Mar 11 - 06:12 AM
Bonzo3legs 22 Mar 11 - 06:53 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 22 Mar 11 - 07:11 AM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 22 Mar 11 - 07:57 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Mar 11 - 08:00 AM
GUEST,999 22 Mar 11 - 08:10 AM
Charley Noble 22 Mar 11 - 08:45 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Mar 11 - 08:56 AM
GUEST,999 22 Mar 11 - 09:02 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Mar 11 - 09:03 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Mar 11 - 09:06 AM
GUEST,999 22 Mar 11 - 09:10 AM
Ron Davies 22 Mar 11 - 09:23 AM
GUEST,999 22 Mar 11 - 09:25 AM
bobad 22 Mar 11 - 09:44 AM
GUEST,number 6 22 Mar 11 - 09:45 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 22 Mar 11 - 10:21 AM
Teribus 22 Mar 11 - 10:23 AM
Donuel 22 Mar 11 - 10:28 AM
Bonzo3legs 22 Mar 11 - 10:43 AM
Charley Noble 22 Mar 11 - 11:26 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Mar 11 - 11:32 AM
DMcG 22 Mar 11 - 12:07 PM
GUEST,999 22 Mar 11 - 12:14 PM
Little Hawk 22 Mar 11 - 12:24 PM
Bonzo3legs 22 Mar 11 - 12:29 PM
GUEST,999 22 Mar 11 - 12:31 PM
Little Hawk 22 Mar 11 - 12:33 PM
Little Hawk 22 Mar 11 - 12:44 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 22 Mar 11 - 01:07 PM
Donuel 22 Mar 11 - 02:52 PM
Little Hawk 22 Mar 11 - 04:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Mar 11 - 06:18 PM
Little Hawk 22 Mar 11 - 06:22 PM
GUEST,999-- Reuters 22 Mar 11 - 09:35 PM
Donuel 22 Mar 11 - 10:07 PM
number 6 22 Mar 11 - 10:35 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 22 Mar 11 - 10:42 PM
Ron Davies 22 Mar 11 - 11:21 PM
Donuel 22 Mar 11 - 11:49 PM
Little Hawk 23 Mar 11 - 01:12 AM
Ron Davies 23 Mar 11 - 01:25 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Mar 11 - 06:13 AM
Bonzo3legs 23 Mar 11 - 06:18 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Mar 11 - 07:07 AM
Ron Davies 23 Mar 11 - 07:09 AM
Ron Davies 23 Mar 11 - 07:14 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Mar 11 - 07:18 AM
GUEST,999 23 Mar 11 - 08:47 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Mar 11 - 09:37 AM
GUEST,999 23 Mar 11 - 10:17 AM
akenaton 23 Mar 11 - 11:11 AM
number 6 23 Mar 11 - 11:26 AM
number 6 23 Mar 11 - 11:40 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 23 Mar 11 - 12:11 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 23 Mar 11 - 12:13 PM
Teribus 23 Mar 11 - 12:28 PM
Bonzo3legs 23 Mar 11 - 12:51 PM
pdq 23 Mar 11 - 01:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Mar 11 - 03:39 PM
bobad 23 Mar 11 - 04:27 PM
Teribus 23 Mar 11 - 04:27 PM
Teribus 23 Mar 11 - 04:41 PM
akenaton 23 Mar 11 - 05:05 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Mar 11 - 05:07 PM
Teribus 23 Mar 11 - 06:41 PM
akenaton 23 Mar 11 - 07:03 PM
GUEST,999 23 Mar 11 - 07:12 PM
pdq 23 Mar 11 - 07:26 PM
Little Hawk 23 Mar 11 - 07:27 PM
pdq 23 Mar 11 - 07:41 PM
Little Hawk 23 Mar 11 - 08:02 PM
pdq 23 Mar 11 - 08:13 PM
Little Hawk 23 Mar 11 - 08:17 PM
number 6 23 Mar 11 - 10:27 PM
Little Hawk 23 Mar 11 - 11:02 PM
GUEST,999 23 Mar 11 - 11:06 PM
number 6 23 Mar 11 - 11:08 PM
Charley Noble 23 Mar 11 - 11:10 PM
GUEST,999 24 Mar 11 - 12:32 AM
Ron Davies 24 Mar 11 - 10:36 PM
Ron Davies 24 Mar 11 - 10:49 PM
Ron Davies 24 Mar 11 - 11:03 PM
GUEST,Teribus 25 Mar 11 - 02:15 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Mar 11 - 04:00 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Mar 11 - 04:48 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Mar 11 - 06:51 AM
Charley Noble 25 Mar 11 - 08:53 AM
GUEST,number 6 25 Mar 11 - 09:00 AM
Teribus 25 Mar 11 - 09:32 AM
Teribus 25 Mar 11 - 10:04 AM
Bonzo3legs 25 Mar 11 - 10:21 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Mar 11 - 11:16 AM
Teribus 25 Mar 11 - 12:06 PM
GUEST,number 6 25 Mar 11 - 12:24 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Mar 11 - 12:32 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Mar 11 - 01:11 PM
GUEST,999 25 Mar 11 - 01:39 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Mar 11 - 02:14 PM
Teribus 25 Mar 11 - 02:33 PM
GUEST,999 25 Mar 11 - 02:41 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Mar 11 - 02:59 PM
GUEST,999 25 Mar 11 - 03:15 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Mar 11 - 03:30 PM
Teribus 25 Mar 11 - 06:06 PM
pdq 25 Mar 11 - 07:39 PM
Bobert 25 Mar 11 - 07:53 PM
number 6 25 Mar 11 - 08:04 PM
number 6 25 Mar 11 - 08:14 PM
Charley Noble 25 Mar 11 - 10:07 PM
number 6 25 Mar 11 - 10:40 PM
Teribus 26 Mar 11 - 04:32 AM
Teribus 26 Mar 11 - 04:52 AM
Charley Noble 26 Mar 11 - 01:42 PM
akenaton 26 Mar 11 - 03:57 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Mar 11 - 05:56 PM
GUEST,999 26 Mar 11 - 06:53 PM
Bobert 26 Mar 11 - 07:15 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Mar 11 - 07:42 PM
Charley Noble 26 Mar 11 - 08:17 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Mar 11 - 08:28 PM
GUEST,999 26 Mar 11 - 10:30 PM
number 6 26 Mar 11 - 11:01 PM
GUEST,999 26 Mar 11 - 11:47 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Mar 11 - 07:13 AM
bobad 27 Mar 11 - 07:36 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Mar 11 - 08:06 AM
GUEST,999 27 Mar 11 - 08:42 AM
Charley Noble 27 Mar 11 - 10:11 AM
bobad 27 Mar 11 - 10:17 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 27 Mar 11 - 10:26 AM
GUEST,999 27 Mar 11 - 11:34 AM
bobad 27 Mar 11 - 12:18 PM
BTNG 27 Mar 11 - 12:37 PM
Charley Noble 27 Mar 11 - 04:25 PM
bobad 27 Mar 11 - 07:19 PM
GUEST,999 27 Mar 11 - 07:44 PM
bobad 27 Mar 11 - 07:47 PM
Little Hawk 27 Mar 11 - 08:36 PM
GUEST,999 28 Mar 11 - 06:00 AM
Charley Noble 28 Mar 11 - 08:16 AM
Charley Noble 28 Mar 11 - 09:16 AM
akenaton 28 Mar 11 - 01:39 PM
melodeonboy 28 Mar 11 - 03:39 PM
Charley Noble 28 Mar 11 - 04:14 PM
Stringsinger 29 Mar 11 - 12:33 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 29 Mar 11 - 01:21 PM
bobad 29 Mar 11 - 01:33 PM
GUEST,999 29 Mar 11 - 01:42 PM
bobad 29 Mar 11 - 02:11 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Mar 11 - 09:47 AM
GUEST 30 Mar 11 - 10:02 AM
GUEST 30 Mar 11 - 05:34 PM
bobad 30 Mar 11 - 08:23 PM
GUEST 31 Mar 11 - 02:03 AM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 31 Mar 11 - 05:51 AM
Ron Davies 31 Mar 11 - 08:11 AM
Charley Noble 31 Mar 11 - 08:34 AM
Ron Davies 31 Mar 11 - 08:39 AM
Ron Davies 31 Mar 11 - 08:48 AM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 31 Mar 11 - 09:32 AM
GUEST,999 31 Mar 11 - 10:33 AM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 31 Mar 11 - 11:28 AM
GUEST,999 31 Mar 11 - 12:58 PM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Mar 11 - 12:59 PM
Charley Noble 31 Mar 11 - 10:12 PM
GUEST 01 Apr 11 - 11:41 AM
akenaton 01 Apr 11 - 11:44 AM
pdq 01 Apr 11 - 11:54 AM
akenaton 01 Apr 11 - 12:03 PM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 01 Apr 11 - 12:14 PM
bobad 01 Apr 11 - 12:26 PM
Charley Noble 01 Apr 11 - 12:50 PM
Little Hawk 01 Apr 11 - 12:53 PM
akenaton 02 Apr 11 - 04:25 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 02 Apr 11 - 04:43 AM
Charley Noble 02 Apr 11 - 10:03 AM
bobad 02 Apr 11 - 10:21 AM
Charley Noble 02 Apr 11 - 11:02 AM
Ron Davies 02 Apr 11 - 03:44 PM
Stringsinger 02 Apr 11 - 05:38 PM
Teribus 02 Apr 11 - 06:22 PM
akenaton 03 Apr 11 - 03:56 AM
bobad 03 Apr 11 - 07:02 AM
akenaton 03 Apr 11 - 10:58 AM
Stringsinger 03 Apr 11 - 03:01 PM
Stringsinger 03 Apr 11 - 03:11 PM
GUEST,999 03 Apr 11 - 03:31 PM
Teribus 03 Apr 11 - 08:05 PM
Charley Noble 03 Apr 11 - 09:05 PM
GUEST,999 03 Apr 11 - 10:26 PM
Charley Noble 04 Apr 11 - 07:43 AM
Teribus 04 Apr 11 - 10:20 AM
Little Hawk 04 Apr 11 - 01:27 PM
Charley Noble 04 Apr 11 - 02:13 PM
J-boy 05 Apr 11 - 12:11 AM
Teribus 05 Apr 11 - 12:22 AM
J-boy 05 Apr 11 - 12:27 AM
goatfell 05 Apr 11 - 12:57 PM
akenaton 05 Apr 11 - 02:56 PM
GUEST,999 05 Apr 11 - 04:06 PM
Charley Noble 05 Apr 11 - 04:11 PM
Teribus 05 Apr 11 - 05:25 PM
akenaton 06 Apr 11 - 03:50 AM
Charley Noble 06 Apr 11 - 08:25 AM
akenaton 06 Apr 11 - 12:00 PM
Teribus 06 Apr 11 - 12:20 PM
Little Hawk 06 Apr 11 - 01:38 PM
Little Hawk 06 Apr 11 - 01:51 PM
Teribus 06 Apr 11 - 05:03 PM
Little Hawk 06 Apr 11 - 08:45 PM
Charley Noble 06 Apr 11 - 10:40 PM
Ron Davies 06 Apr 11 - 10:59 PM
Ron Davies 06 Apr 11 - 11:14 PM
GUEST,999 07 Apr 11 - 01:17 AM
akenaton 07 Apr 11 - 03:58 AM
Ron Davies 07 Apr 11 - 10:38 AM
Charley Noble 07 Apr 11 - 10:51 AM
Teribus 07 Apr 11 - 11:31 AM
Charley Noble 07 Apr 11 - 12:52 PM
akenaton 07 Apr 11 - 04:01 PM
Little Hawk 07 Apr 11 - 04:20 PM
akenaton 07 Apr 11 - 04:30 PM
Teribus 07 Apr 11 - 06:43 PM
Ron Davies 07 Apr 11 - 09:56 PM
Little Hawk 07 Apr 11 - 10:09 PM
akenaton 08 Apr 11 - 03:25 AM
Teribus 08 Apr 11 - 08:15 AM
Charley Noble 08 Apr 11 - 08:32 AM
Ron Davies 08 Apr 11 - 10:44 PM
Charley Noble 08 Apr 11 - 11:04 PM
GUEST,999 08 Apr 11 - 11:53 PM
Ron Davies 09 Apr 11 - 12:30 AM
GUEST,99 09 Apr 11 - 11:38 AM
Charley Noble 09 Apr 11 - 11:45 AM
akenaton 10 Apr 11 - 04:38 AM
akenaton 10 Apr 11 - 04:41 AM
GUEST,giovanni 10 Apr 11 - 04:55 AM
Ron Davies 10 Apr 11 - 09:00 AM
Teribus 10 Apr 11 - 09:36 AM
GUEST,999 10 Apr 11 - 09:42 AM
Ron Davies 10 Apr 11 - 09:45 AM
Ron Davies 10 Apr 11 - 09:47 AM
Ron Davies 10 Apr 11 - 09:55 AM
Ron Davies 10 Apr 11 - 09:58 AM
Charley Noble 10 Apr 11 - 12:42 PM
Charley Noble 10 Apr 11 - 09:15 PM
bobad 10 Apr 11 - 09:35 PM
Ron Davies 10 Apr 11 - 10:44 PM
GUEST,giovanni 11 Apr 11 - 02:37 AM
Teribus 11 Apr 11 - 05:59 PM
Charley Noble 11 Apr 11 - 10:28 PM
gnu 11 Apr 11 - 10:43 PM
Teribus 12 Apr 11 - 12:45 AM
Ron Davies 12 Apr 11 - 01:21 AM
Teribus 12 Apr 11 - 02:03 AM
GUEST 12 Apr 11 - 02:50 AM
Charley Noble 12 Apr 11 - 07:31 AM
bobad 12 Apr 11 - 08:07 AM
Ron Davies 12 Apr 11 - 08:29 AM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Apr 11 - 10:03 AM
Stringsinger 12 Apr 11 - 04:35 PM
akenaton 13 Apr 11 - 03:14 AM
Charley Noble 13 Apr 11 - 07:43 AM
Ron Davies 13 Apr 11 - 08:31 AM
Ron Davies 13 Apr 11 - 08:51 AM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Apr 11 - 12:15 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Apr 11 - 12:36 PM
Charley Noble 13 Apr 11 - 01:14 PM
Teribus 13 Apr 11 - 01:27 PM
Teribus 13 Apr 11 - 01:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Apr 11 - 02:13 PM
akenaton 13 Apr 11 - 04:04 PM
akenaton 13 Apr 11 - 04:18 PM
Teribus 13 Apr 11 - 05:14 PM
Ron Davies 13 Apr 11 - 09:05 PM
Ron Davies 13 Apr 11 - 09:09 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Apr 11 - 09:41 AM
Teribus 15 Apr 11 - 12:31 AM
akenaton 15 Apr 11 - 11:41 AM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Apr 11 - 12:11 PM
akenaton 15 Apr 11 - 03:57 PM
bobad 16 Apr 11 - 07:29 AM
Ron Davies 16 Apr 11 - 09:03 AM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Apr 11 - 12:25 PM
bobad 16 Apr 11 - 05:54 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 17 Apr 11 - 08:10 AM
Ron Davies 17 Apr 11 - 01:30 PM
Ron Davies 17 Apr 11 - 01:33 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Apr 11 - 02:48 PM
Richard Bridge 17 Apr 11 - 05:51 PM
bobad 17 Apr 11 - 06:53 PM
Ron Davies 17 Apr 11 - 10:51 PM
Richard Bridge 18 Apr 11 - 02:35 AM
bobad 18 Apr 11 - 07:32 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 18 Apr 11 - 07:53 AM
bobad 18 Apr 11 - 08:05 AM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Apr 11 - 08:35 AM
bobad 18 Apr 11 - 08:43 AM
Ed T 19 Apr 11 - 08:35 PM
bobad 07 May 11 - 09:46 AM
Charley Noble 07 May 11 - 09:56 AM
Ron Davies 07 May 11 - 01:25 PM
Charley Noble 07 May 11 - 09:26 PM
GUEST,number 6 07 May 11 - 10:11 PM
akenaton 08 May 11 - 03:48 AM
Ron Davies 08 May 11 - 09:59 AM
Charley Noble 08 May 11 - 11:57 AM
Stringsinger 08 May 11 - 12:45 PM
Ron Davies 08 May 11 - 11:52 PM
Richard Bridge 13 May 11 - 03:42 PM
Charley Noble 13 May 11 - 05:04 PM
akenaton 14 May 11 - 12:05 PM
Charley Noble 14 May 11 - 02:50 PM
Richard Bridge 14 May 11 - 07:59 PM
bobad 14 May 11 - 10:53 PM
GUEST,giovanni 15 May 11 - 04:06 AM
akenaton 15 May 11 - 05:06 AM
bobad 15 May 11 - 08:15 AM
GUEST,Lighter 15 May 11 - 09:15 AM
akenaton 15 May 11 - 09:55 AM
akenaton 15 May 11 - 10:12 AM
bobad 15 May 11 - 11:06 AM
Richard Bridge 15 May 11 - 11:52 AM
GUEST,Lighter 15 May 11 - 12:26 PM
bobad 15 May 11 - 12:49 PM
Richard Bridge 15 May 11 - 01:39 PM
bobad 15 May 11 - 01:57 PM
gnu 15 May 11 - 02:02 PM
The Sandman 15 May 11 - 02:14 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 May 11 - 02:54 PM
akenaton 15 May 11 - 04:28 PM
GUEST,Lighter 15 May 11 - 04:52 PM
Charley Noble 15 May 11 - 09:05 PM
GUEST,Lighter 15 May 11 - 09:36 PM
Ron Davies 16 May 11 - 01:11 AM
Richard Bridge 16 May 11 - 02:05 AM
akenaton 16 May 11 - 03:23 AM
Teribus 16 May 11 - 04:31 AM
akenaton 16 May 11 - 05:37 AM
bobad 16 May 11 - 07:18 AM
McGrath of Harlow 16 May 11 - 07:18 AM
GUEST,Lighter 16 May 11 - 07:30 AM
GUEST,Keith A 16 May 11 - 07:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 11 - 07:43 AM
bobad 16 May 11 - 07:55 AM
bobad 16 May 11 - 08:03 AM
Charley Noble 16 May 11 - 08:09 AM
McGrath of Harlow 16 May 11 - 09:25 AM
GUEST,number 6 16 May 11 - 09:35 AM
akenaton 16 May 11 - 02:39 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 11 - 02:49 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 May 11 - 03:51 PM
GUEST,number 6 16 May 11 - 04:04 PM
GUEST,number 6 16 May 11 - 04:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 11 - 05:20 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 May 11 - 06:31 PM
Stringsinger 16 May 11 - 07:00 PM
Charley Noble 16 May 11 - 09:14 PM
Ron Davies 17 May 11 - 12:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 May 11 - 02:48 AM
akenaton 17 May 11 - 03:23 AM
bobad 17 May 11 - 07:33 AM
GUEST,Lighter 17 May 11 - 08:22 AM
Ron Davies 17 May 11 - 09:10 AM
Ron Davies 17 May 11 - 09:57 AM
Charley Noble 20 May 11 - 08:48 AM
GUEST 21 May 11 - 03:24 AM
Charley Noble 21 May 11 - 09:32 AM
GUEST,Lighter 21 May 11 - 09:59 AM
McGrath of Harlow 21 May 11 - 11:00 AM
Charley Noble 21 May 11 - 11:58 AM
McGrath of Harlow 21 May 11 - 12:21 PM
bobad 21 May 11 - 12:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 May 11 - 01:48 PM
bobad 21 May 11 - 02:04 PM
Charley Noble 21 May 11 - 11:48 PM
GUEST,Lighter 22 May 11 - 08:49 AM
Ron Davies 23 May 11 - 07:08 AM
akenaton 24 May 11 - 01:23 PM
Teribus 24 May 11 - 03:14 PM
akenaton 24 May 11 - 04:28 PM
Charley Noble 24 May 11 - 06:29 PM
akenaton 25 May 11 - 03:42 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 May 11 - 04:24 AM
GUEST,Lighter 25 May 11 - 08:29 AM
Charley Noble 25 May 11 - 11:38 AM
akenaton 25 May 11 - 12:14 PM
Teribus 25 May 11 - 12:17 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 May 11 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,Lighter 25 May 11 - 01:18 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 May 11 - 01:32 PM
GUEST,Lighter 25 May 11 - 03:07 PM
akenaton 25 May 11 - 03:49 PM
akenaton 25 May 11 - 03:58 PM
Teribus 25 May 11 - 03:59 PM
GUEST,Lighter 25 May 11 - 04:20 PM
akenaton 25 May 11 - 05:22 PM
akenaton 25 May 11 - 05:33 PM
Teribus 25 May 11 - 05:38 PM
GUEST,Lighter 25 May 11 - 05:42 PM
Teribus 26 May 11 - 01:08 AM
GUEST,Lighter 26 May 11 - 05:32 AM
akenaton 26 May 11 - 07:25 AM
Lighter 26 May 11 - 08:23 AM
Teribus 26 May 11 - 09:42 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 26 May 11 - 12:46 PM
Lighter 26 May 11 - 01:50 PM
akenaton 26 May 11 - 02:11 PM
Charley Noble 26 May 11 - 04:51 PM
akenaton 26 May 11 - 07:13 PM
Lighter 26 May 11 - 08:05 PM
Charley Noble 26 May 11 - 09:04 PM
Ron Davies 26 May 11 - 09:14 PM
Lighter 26 May 11 - 10:06 PM
akenaton 27 May 11 - 07:38 AM
Lighter 27 May 11 - 08:44 AM
bobad 27 May 11 - 08:46 AM
bobad 27 May 11 - 08:48 AM
bobad 27 May 11 - 12:02 PM
akenaton 27 May 11 - 01:12 PM
Ron Davies 27 May 11 - 10:41 PM
Ron Davies 27 May 11 - 10:42 PM
Charley Noble 28 May 11 - 01:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 May 11 - 03:44 PM
Ron Davies 28 May 11 - 05:22 PM
Ron Davies 28 May 11 - 05:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 May 11 - 05:52 PM
akenaton 28 May 11 - 07:41 PM
Ron Davies 29 May 11 - 07:18 PM
Charley Noble 29 May 11 - 09:03 PM
bobad 29 May 11 - 09:19 PM
akenaton 30 May 11 - 03:14 AM
akenaton 30 May 11 - 05:38 AM
McGrath of Harlow 30 May 11 - 06:21 AM
Ron Davies 30 May 11 - 10:28 AM
Ron Davies 30 May 11 - 10:30 AM
McGrath of Harlow 30 May 11 - 02:07 PM
Stringsinger 30 May 11 - 03:17 PM
bobad 30 May 11 - 09:45 PM
bobad 30 May 11 - 10:11 PM
Lighter 31 May 11 - 07:21 AM
Charley Noble 31 May 11 - 07:50 AM
akenaton 31 May 11 - 12:50 PM
Lighter 31 May 11 - 04:09 PM
Charley Noble 31 May 11 - 05:36 PM
Ron Davies 31 May 11 - 11:40 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Jun 11 - 05:54 AM
akenaton 01 Jun 11 - 03:56 PM
Stringsinger 01 Jun 11 - 04:37 PM
Lighter 01 Jun 11 - 05:01 PM
bobad 01 Jun 11 - 05:05 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Jun 11 - 05:16 PM
akenaton 01 Jun 11 - 06:43 PM
Ron Davies 01 Jun 11 - 11:18 PM
Teribus 02 Jun 11 - 03:11 AM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Jun 11 - 07:03 AM
Teribus 02 Jun 11 - 12:47 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Jun 11 - 02:19 PM
bobad 02 Jun 11 - 02:33 PM
bobad 02 Jun 11 - 02:37 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Jun 11 - 03:11 PM
Lighter 02 Jun 11 - 04:40 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Jun 11 - 05:10 PM
Charley Noble 05 Jun 11 - 10:56 AM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Jun 11 - 09:25 AM
Charley Noble 06 Jun 11 - 11:45 AM
akenaton 06 Jun 11 - 12:05 PM
The Sandman 06 Jun 11 - 01:04 PM
bobad 06 Jun 11 - 01:19 PM
bobad 06 Jun 11 - 01:20 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Jun 11 - 01:47 PM
The Sandman 06 Jun 11 - 03:25 PM
Teribus 06 Jun 11 - 07:02 PM
akenaton 07 Jun 11 - 03:04 AM
The Sandman 07 Jun 11 - 09:31 AM
Teribus 07 Jun 11 - 11:32 AM
The Sandman 07 Jun 11 - 12:39 PM
The Sandman 07 Jun 11 - 12:41 PM
akenaton 07 Jun 11 - 03:26 PM
akenaton 07 Jun 11 - 03:44 PM
Teribus 07 Jun 11 - 05:31 PM
akenaton 07 Jun 11 - 05:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Jun 11 - 06:05 PM
gnu 07 Jun 11 - 07:06 PM
bobad 07 Jun 11 - 07:15 PM
Ron Davies 07 Jun 11 - 11:26 PM
Teribus 08 Jun 11 - 12:09 AM
akenaton 08 Jun 11 - 03:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 11 - 04:29 AM
Ron Davies 08 Jun 11 - 07:11 AM
Ron Davies 08 Jun 11 - 08:20 AM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jun 11 - 08:44 AM
The Sandman 08 Jun 11 - 05:23 PM
GUEST,999 08 Jun 11 - 05:47 PM
GUEST,Jon 08 Jun 11 - 06:33 PM
Ron Davies 08 Jun 11 - 11:42 PM
Little Hawk 08 Jun 11 - 11:53 PM
Ron Davies 08 Jun 11 - 11:57 PM
Ron Davies 09 Jun 11 - 12:13 AM
The Sandman 09 Jun 11 - 11:20 AM
GUEST,Lighter 09 Jun 11 - 02:27 PM
The Sandman 09 Jun 11 - 05:40 PM
Teribus 09 Jun 11 - 07:09 PM
Ron Davies 09 Jun 11 - 10:20 PM
Ron Davies 09 Jun 11 - 10:28 PM
akenaton 10 Jun 11 - 03:42 AM
Ron Davies 10 Jun 11 - 08:19 AM
Teribus 10 Jun 11 - 03:00 PM
Teribus 11 Jun 11 - 02:31 AM
akenaton 11 Jun 11 - 02:54 AM
Teribus 11 Jun 11 - 07:01 AM
Ron Davies 11 Jun 11 - 09:09 AM
akenaton 21 Jun 11 - 07:24 AM
akenaton 21 Jun 11 - 07:47 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 21 Jun 11 - 09:46 AM
Charley Noble 21 Jun 11 - 10:19 AM
pdq 21 Jun 11 - 10:37 AM
Ron Davies 21 Jun 11 - 10:33 PM
akenaton 22 Jun 11 - 03:53 PM
Ron Davies 22 Jun 11 - 09:10 PM
Little Hawk 23 Jun 11 - 12:43 AM
goatfell 23 Jun 11 - 11:57 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 23 Jun 11 - 12:36 PM
Ron Davies 23 Jun 11 - 10:07 PM
GUEST,Guest Observer 24 Jun 11 - 02:56 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 24 Jun 11 - 04:25 PM
bobad 24 Jun 11 - 05:40 PM
Ron Davies 24 Jun 11 - 09:20 PM
Ron Davies 24 Jun 11 - 09:49 PM
Little Hawk 25 Jun 11 - 04:11 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 25 Jun 11 - 07:59 PM
gnu 25 Jun 11 - 08:36 PM
The Sandman 26 Jun 11 - 04:09 PM
The Sandman 26 Jun 11 - 04:15 PM
pdq 26 Jun 11 - 04:57 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 26 Jun 11 - 08:25 PM
pdq 26 Jun 11 - 08:39 PM
bobad 27 Jun 11 - 08:56 AM
The Sandman 27 Jun 11 - 06:03 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 27 Jun 11 - 08:23 PM
number 6 27 Jun 11 - 10:29 PM
Ron Davies 28 Jun 11 - 09:50 PM
bobad 01 Jul 11 - 05:51 PM
Charley Noble 01 Jul 11 - 10:08 PM
akenaton 02 Jul 11 - 01:15 PM
gnu 02 Jul 11 - 01:53 PM
The Sandman 02 Jul 11 - 02:34 PM
gnu 02 Jul 11 - 04:17 PM
Ron Davies 02 Jul 11 - 04:56 PM
akenaton 02 Jul 11 - 07:03 PM
bobad 02 Jul 11 - 08:29 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 02 Jul 11 - 09:12 PM
Little Hawk 02 Jul 11 - 10:45 PM
akenaton 03 Jul 11 - 07:50 AM
Ron Davies 03 Jul 11 - 11:15 AM
Don Firth 03 Jul 11 - 05:02 PM
bobad 03 Jul 11 - 05:24 PM
Charley Noble 03 Jul 11 - 08:31 PM
bobad 03 Jul 11 - 08:36 PM
akenaton 04 Jul 11 - 03:22 AM
bobad 04 Jul 11 - 07:20 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 04 Jul 11 - 12:13 PM
Charley Noble 05 Jul 11 - 07:41 AM
Ron Davies 05 Jul 11 - 09:13 AM
Teribus 05 Jul 11 - 09:50 AM
akenaton 05 Jul 11 - 04:08 PM
Charley Noble 05 Jul 11 - 05:55 PM
akenaton 05 Jul 11 - 06:09 PM
akenaton 05 Jul 11 - 06:13 PM
Charley Noble 05 Jul 11 - 08:39 PM
Teribus 06 Jul 11 - 12:41 AM
Ron Davies 06 Jul 11 - 12:55 AM
bobad 14 Jul 11 - 12:00 PM
Charley Noble 14 Jul 11 - 06:51 PM
Ron Davies 14 Jul 11 - 11:15 PM
Charley Noble 15 Jul 11 - 08:26 AM
Charley Noble 15 Jul 11 - 03:10 PM
akenaton 15 Jul 11 - 04:09 PM
Charley Noble 15 Jul 11 - 11:55 PM
Ron Davies 16 Jul 11 - 12:33 AM
Ron Davies 16 Jul 11 - 12:45 AM
akenaton 16 Jul 11 - 07:02 AM
Teribus 16 Jul 11 - 08:27 AM
akenaton 16 Jul 11 - 08:55 AM
Charley Noble 16 Jul 11 - 09:59 AM
Ron Davies 16 Jul 11 - 10:51 AM
Charley Noble 21 Jul 11 - 01:59 PM
The Sandman 21 Jul 11 - 02:19 PM
Charley Noble 21 Jul 11 - 08:34 PM
Ron Davies 21 Jul 11 - 11:32 PM
Ron Davies 21 Jul 11 - 11:33 PM
akenaton 22 Jul 11 - 04:13 AM
Charley Noble 22 Jul 11 - 09:47 AM
The Sandman 22 Jul 11 - 12:45 PM
Ron Davies 22 Jul 11 - 09:26 PM
bobad 23 Jul 11 - 09:27 AM
Charley Noble 23 Jul 11 - 02:49 PM
bobad 23 Jul 11 - 07:12 PM
akenaton 24 Jul 11 - 11:48 AM
Stringsinger 24 Jul 11 - 11:53 AM
Charley Noble 24 Jul 11 - 01:13 PM
Little Hawk 25 Jul 11 - 09:38 AM
akenaton 25 Jul 11 - 10:20 AM
GUEST 25 Jul 11 - 12:11 PM
Charley Noble 25 Jul 11 - 05:20 PM
The Sandman 25 Jul 11 - 05:31 PM
Teribus 25 Jul 11 - 06:07 PM
akenaton 25 Jul 11 - 06:41 PM
Ron Davies 26 Jul 11 - 12:00 AM
Teribus 26 Jul 11 - 01:08 AM
akenaton 26 Jul 11 - 03:07 AM
GUEST,number 6 26 Jul 11 - 09:07 PM
Ron Davies 26 Jul 11 - 10:54 PM
Ron Davies 26 Jul 11 - 10:59 PM
Teribus 27 Jul 11 - 10:53 AM
The Sandman 27 Jul 11 - 06:44 PM
Ron Davies 28 Jul 11 - 09:04 AM
Charley Noble 28 Jul 11 - 09:11 AM
akenaton 28 Jul 11 - 12:03 PM
Ron Davies 28 Jul 11 - 10:42 PM
Ron Davies 28 Jul 11 - 10:50 PM
Ron Davies 28 Jul 11 - 10:52 PM
akenaton 29 Jul 11 - 06:03 PM
Charley Noble 29 Jul 11 - 06:22 PM
gnu 29 Jul 11 - 06:58 PM
bobad 29 Jul 11 - 07:07 PM
Charley Noble 29 Jul 11 - 08:57 PM
Ron Davies 29 Jul 11 - 09:34 PM
akenaton 30 Jul 11 - 10:08 AM
akenaton 30 Jul 11 - 10:14 AM
Ron Davies 30 Jul 11 - 05:25 PM
Ron Davies 30 Jul 11 - 05:26 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Jul 11 - 05:36 PM
akenaton 31 Jul 11 - 04:39 AM
Teribus 31 Jul 11 - 05:39 AM
akenaton 31 Jul 11 - 11:19 AM
Stringsinger 31 Jul 11 - 11:56 AM
Stringsinger 31 Jul 11 - 12:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jul 11 - 01:36 PM
Ron Davies 01 Aug 11 - 08:51 AM
Ron Davies 01 Aug 11 - 08:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Aug 11 - 09:20 AM
Charley Noble 01 Aug 11 - 11:37 AM
bobad 01 Aug 11 - 01:13 PM
Teribus 01 Aug 11 - 02:50 PM
akenaton 01 Aug 11 - 04:23 PM
bobad 01 Aug 11 - 05:05 PM
Ron Davies 02 Aug 11 - 09:52 PM
akenaton 03 Aug 11 - 03:09 AM
Charley Noble 03 Aug 11 - 08:04 AM
akenaton 03 Aug 11 - 02:08 PM
Charley Noble 03 Aug 11 - 05:05 PM
Ron Davies 03 Aug 11 - 09:44 PM
Ron Davies 03 Aug 11 - 09:46 PM
Ron Davies 03 Aug 11 - 09:53 PM
akenaton 04 Aug 11 - 03:27 AM
Charley Noble 04 Aug 11 - 09:18 AM
Ron Davies 04 Aug 11 - 09:41 AM
akenaton 04 Aug 11 - 10:20 AM
Ron Davies 04 Aug 11 - 10:22 AM
Charley Noble 04 Aug 11 - 01:22 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 08 Aug 11 - 08:00 AM
Teribus 08 Aug 11 - 10:09 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 08 Aug 11 - 12:10 PM
akenaton 08 Aug 11 - 05:36 PM
Teribus 08 Aug 11 - 06:00 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 08 Aug 11 - 06:28 PM
Teribus 09 Aug 11 - 01:21 AM
bobad 11 Aug 11 - 10:08 PM
Teribus 12 Aug 11 - 12:41 AM
Charley Noble 12 Aug 11 - 07:41 AM
Teribus 12 Aug 11 - 09:50 AM
akenaton 12 Aug 11 - 01:43 PM
Charley Noble 12 Aug 11 - 05:02 PM
bobad 13 Aug 11 - 10:14 AM
Stringsinger 13 Aug 11 - 11:36 AM
Ron Davies 13 Aug 11 - 04:08 PM
Ron Davies 13 Aug 11 - 04:18 PM
Ron Davies 13 Aug 11 - 04:22 PM
Charley Noble 14 Aug 11 - 10:50 AM
Ron Davies 14 Aug 11 - 11:50 AM
akenaton 14 Aug 11 - 12:44 PM
bobad 14 Aug 11 - 01:15 PM
akenaton 14 Aug 11 - 01:41 PM
bobad 14 Aug 11 - 01:51 PM
Ron Davies 14 Aug 11 - 03:00 PM
akenaton 14 Aug 11 - 06:28 PM
Charley Noble 17 Aug 11 - 11:09 PM
bobad 18 Aug 11 - 12:06 AM
akenaton 17 Aug 11 - 05:08 PM
akenaton 17 Aug 11 - 05:35 PM
Ron Davies 17 Aug 11 - 10:19 PM
Ron Davies 17 Aug 11 - 10:28 PM
Ron Davies 17 Aug 11 - 10:31 PM
Ron Davies 17 Aug 11 - 10:31 PM
Charley Noble 17 Aug 11 - 10:51 PM
akenaton 18 Aug 11 - 03:07 AM
Charley Noble 18 Aug 11 - 08:20 AM
akenaton 18 Aug 11 - 01:49 PM
Ron Davies 19 Aug 11 - 09:07 AM
Charley Noble 19 Aug 11 - 12:37 PM
gnu 19 Aug 11 - 04:04 PM
akenaton 19 Aug 11 - 05:07 PM
Little Hawk 19 Aug 11 - 08:22 PM
Ron Davies 19 Aug 11 - 11:01 PM
Ron Davies 19 Aug 11 - 11:07 PM
Stringsinger 20 Aug 11 - 12:12 PM
bobad 20 Aug 11 - 05:36 PM
gnu 20 Aug 11 - 05:56 PM
bobad 21 Aug 11 - 08:01 AM
Charley Noble 21 Aug 11 - 11:06 AM
bobad 21 Aug 11 - 11:48 AM
Ron Davies 21 Aug 11 - 11:58 AM
bobad 21 Aug 11 - 12:52 PM
Ron Davies 21 Aug 11 - 02:29 PM
Charley Noble 21 Aug 11 - 02:49 PM
bobad 21 Aug 11 - 02:49 PM
Charley Noble 21 Aug 11 - 04:34 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 21 Aug 11 - 05:40 PM
Ron Davies 21 Aug 11 - 06:00 PM
bobad 21 Aug 11 - 06:03 PM
Ron Davies 21 Aug 11 - 07:57 PM
Charley Noble 21 Aug 11 - 10:12 PM
Songwronger 21 Aug 11 - 10:42 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 21 Aug 11 - 10:58 PM
Ron Davies 21 Aug 11 - 11:17 PM
akenaton 22 Aug 11 - 02:26 AM
bobad 22 Aug 11 - 08:04 AM
Charley Noble 22 Aug 11 - 08:23 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 22 Aug 11 - 04:31 PM
Charley Noble 22 Aug 11 - 05:09 PM
Teribus 22 Aug 11 - 05:56 PM
bobad 22 Aug 11 - 07:59 PM
Charley Noble 22 Aug 11 - 08:08 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 23 Aug 11 - 02:38 PM
bobad 23 Aug 11 - 03:10 PM
Charley Noble 23 Aug 11 - 03:44 PM
Charley Noble 23 Aug 11 - 04:44 PM
Stringsinger 23 Aug 11 - 05:20 PM
gnu 23 Aug 11 - 05:38 PM
Charley Noble 23 Aug 11 - 06:58 PM
akenaton 24 Aug 11 - 09:52 AM
Charley Noble 24 Aug 11 - 11:19 AM
Charley Noble 24 Aug 11 - 11:29 AM
gnu 24 Aug 11 - 03:17 PM
bobad 24 Aug 11 - 05:36 PM
Ron Davies 24 Aug 11 - 11:49 PM
akenaton 25 Aug 11 - 03:54 AM
Teribus 25 Aug 11 - 11:22 AM
akenaton 25 Aug 11 - 12:32 PM
Teribus 25 Aug 11 - 01:28 PM
gnu 25 Aug 11 - 02:58 PM
akenaton 25 Aug 11 - 06:00 PM
gnu 25 Aug 11 - 06:38 PM
bobad 25 Aug 11 - 06:42 PM
Charley Noble 25 Aug 11 - 08:28 PM
Ron Davies 25 Aug 11 - 10:51 PM
Ron Davies 25 Aug 11 - 10:52 PM
akenaton 26 Aug 11 - 02:51 AM
bobad 26 Aug 11 - 04:36 PM
gnu 26 Aug 11 - 04:56 PM
bobad 27 Aug 11 - 07:23 AM
Charley Noble 27 Aug 11 - 10:57 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 27 Aug 11 - 11:19 AM
bobad 27 Aug 11 - 11:48 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 27 Aug 11 - 11:59 AM
bobad 27 Aug 11 - 12:03 PM
bobad 27 Aug 11 - 12:17 PM
Charley Noble 27 Aug 11 - 02:54 PM
Charley Noble 27 Aug 11 - 08:58 PM
bobad 29 Aug 11 - 06:52 AM
bobad 29 Aug 11 - 08:03 AM
bobad 29 Aug 11 - 08:05 AM
akenaton 29 Aug 11 - 10:23 AM
bobad 29 Aug 11 - 01:40 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 29 Aug 11 - 02:08 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 29 Aug 11 - 02:10 PM
bobad 29 Aug 11 - 02:20 PM
Charley Noble 29 Aug 11 - 03:54 PM
bobad 30 Aug 11 - 10:27 AM
Charley Noble 31 Aug 11 - 08:18 AM
bobad 31 Aug 11 - 08:52 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 31 Aug 11 - 09:53 AM
bobad 31 Aug 11 - 10:27 AM
akenaton 31 Aug 11 - 01:28 PM
GUEST 31 Aug 11 - 01:45 PM
bobad 31 Aug 11 - 01:47 PM
The Sandman 31 Aug 11 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 01 Sep 11 - 08:17 AM
Charley Noble 01 Sep 11 - 09:21 AM
akenaton 01 Sep 11 - 03:55 PM
Charley Noble 01 Sep 11 - 04:58 PM
bobad 01 Sep 11 - 10:28 PM
akenaton 02 Sep 11 - 02:43 AM
Teribus 02 Sep 11 - 03:20 AM
Charley Noble 02 Sep 11 - 09:16 AM
Ron Davies 02 Sep 11 - 10:00 AM
Charley Noble 02 Sep 11 - 11:41 AM
bobad 02 Sep 11 - 06:01 PM
Charley Noble 03 Sep 11 - 10:44 AM
Charley Noble 04 Sep 11 - 07:52 AM
bobad 04 Sep 11 - 08:13 AM
akenaton 05 Sep 11 - 03:11 AM
bobad 05 Sep 11 - 07:41 AM
Charley Noble 05 Sep 11 - 10:53 AM
akenaton 05 Sep 11 - 03:41 PM
Charley Noble 05 Sep 11 - 03:51 PM
gnu 05 Sep 11 - 04:07 PM
akenaton 05 Sep 11 - 04:13 PM
Charley Noble 06 Sep 11 - 08:57 AM
bobad 06 Sep 11 - 05:48 PM
Charley Noble 06 Sep 11 - 08:17 PM
Ron Davies 07 Sep 11 - 09:07 AM
The Sandman 07 Sep 11 - 12:20 PM
Charley Noble 07 Sep 11 - 10:51 PM
Ron Davies 07 Sep 11 - 10:54 PM
Ron Davies 07 Sep 11 - 10:55 PM
akenaton 08 Sep 11 - 02:48 AM
bobad 08 Sep 11 - 08:10 AM
bobad 08 Sep 11 - 08:11 AM
Charley Noble 08 Sep 11 - 09:44 AM
Ron Davies 08 Sep 11 - 12:23 PM
bobad 08 Sep 11 - 01:26 PM
Charley Noble 08 Sep 11 - 05:53 PM
Ron Davies 08 Sep 11 - 10:18 PM
bobad 09 Sep 11 - 07:36 AM
Ron Davies 09 Sep 11 - 10:42 PM
Charley Noble 09 Sep 11 - 10:47 PM
akenaton 10 Sep 11 - 03:43 AM
bobad 10 Sep 11 - 07:05 AM
Charley Noble 10 Sep 11 - 09:35 AM
Ron Davies 10 Sep 11 - 10:27 AM
akenaton 10 Sep 11 - 11:40 AM
Ron Davies 10 Sep 11 - 01:03 PM
Charley Noble 10 Sep 11 - 02:10 PM
akenaton 11 Sep 11 - 04:03 AM
Ron Davies 11 Sep 11 - 11:17 PM
Songwronger 12 Sep 11 - 12:12 AM
akenaton 12 Sep 11 - 03:45 AM
bobad 12 Sep 11 - 04:55 AM
bobad 12 Sep 11 - 08:21 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 13 Sep 11 - 03:38 AM
Ron Davies 13 Sep 11 - 08:50 AM
akenaton 13 Sep 11 - 10:00 AM
bobad 13 Sep 11 - 10:16 AM
Ron Davies 13 Sep 11 - 10:45 AM
Ron Davies 13 Sep 11 - 10:56 AM
Charley Noble 13 Sep 11 - 08:08 PM
Songwronger 13 Sep 11 - 11:18 PM
Teribus 14 Sep 11 - 02:28 AM
akenaton 14 Sep 11 - 03:05 AM
Charley Noble 14 Sep 11 - 07:52 AM
Charley Noble 14 Sep 11 - 08:02 AM
Ron Davies 14 Sep 11 - 09:04 AM
Charley Noble 14 Sep 11 - 10:36 PM
Songwronger 15 Sep 11 - 01:19 AM
Charley Noble 15 Sep 11 - 08:04 AM
Ron Davies 15 Sep 11 - 09:39 AM
Ron Davies 15 Sep 11 - 10:10 AM
bobad 16 Sep 11 - 10:07 AM
bobad 18 Sep 11 - 07:19 AM
Charley Noble 18 Sep 11 - 10:59 AM
The Sandman 18 Sep 11 - 12:47 PM
Ron Davies 18 Sep 11 - 09:33 PM
GUEST,number 6 18 Sep 11 - 10:26 PM
akenaton 19 Sep 11 - 03:22 AM
Teribus 19 Sep 11 - 11:01 AM
Charley Noble 19 Sep 11 - 05:56 PM
Songwronger 19 Sep 11 - 08:20 PM
Songwronger 19 Sep 11 - 08:21 PM
Charley Noble 19 Sep 11 - 08:51 PM
Charley Noble 21 Sep 11 - 09:06 AM
Charley Noble 22 Sep 11 - 08:28 AM
Charley Noble 22 Sep 11 - 04:56 PM
Stringsinger 22 Sep 11 - 07:21 PM
Charley Noble 22 Sep 11 - 07:46 PM
Ron Davies 23 Sep 11 - 07:28 AM
Songwronger 24 Sep 11 - 12:00 AM
Charley Noble 24 Sep 11 - 11:11 AM
Charley Noble 24 Sep 11 - 11:17 AM
Ron Davies 25 Sep 11 - 11:14 AM
bobad 25 Sep 11 - 12:14 PM
Charley Noble 25 Sep 11 - 08:04 PM
Charley Noble 26 Sep 11 - 01:29 PM
The Sandman 26 Sep 11 - 04:52 PM
Charley Noble 26 Sep 11 - 07:24 PM
akenaton 27 Sep 11 - 03:36 AM
Ron Davies 27 Sep 11 - 06:35 AM
bobad 27 Sep 11 - 07:51 AM
Charley Noble 27 Sep 11 - 08:45 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 27 Sep 11 - 09:03 AM
Stringsinger 27 Sep 11 - 11:15 AM
bobad 28 Sep 11 - 07:55 AM
akenaton 28 Sep 11 - 11:40 AM
akenaton 28 Sep 11 - 11:49 AM
Charley Noble 28 Sep 11 - 04:19 PM
GUEST,number 6 28 Sep 11 - 11:03 PM
Charley Noble 29 Sep 11 - 08:34 PM
akenaton 30 Sep 11 - 03:12 AM
Charley Noble 30 Sep 11 - 08:15 AM
Charley Noble 30 Sep 11 - 02:05 PM
akenaton 30 Sep 11 - 05:26 PM
Charley Noble 30 Sep 11 - 09:39 PM
Teribus 01 Oct 11 - 05:55 AM
akenaton 01 Oct 11 - 11:38 AM
Charley Noble 01 Oct 11 - 12:41 PM
Little Hawk 01 Oct 11 - 01:11 PM
GUEST,number 6 01 Oct 11 - 02:03 PM
Charley Noble 01 Oct 11 - 05:32 PM
GUEST,number 6 01 Oct 11 - 07:45 PM
GUEST,Teribus 02 Oct 11 - 03:50 AM
Charley Noble 02 Oct 11 - 11:05 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 02 Oct 11 - 02:47 PM
Charley Noble 02 Oct 11 - 05:04 PM
Charley Noble 02 Oct 11 - 05:08 PM
bobad 02 Oct 11 - 07:35 PM
Charley Noble 03 Oct 11 - 08:15 AM
GUEST,mudcat7 07 Oct 11 - 01:29 PM
Charley Noble 08 Oct 11 - 09:34 AM
GUEST,number 6 08 Oct 11 - 08:17 PM
Little Hawk 09 Oct 11 - 06:32 PM
GUEST,number 6 09 Oct 11 - 09:13 PM
Ron Davies 09 Oct 11 - 09:44 PM
bobad 12 Oct 11 - 08:15 AM
Charley Noble 12 Oct 11 - 12:52 PM
bobad 12 Oct 11 - 05:13 PM
Charley Noble 12 Oct 11 - 10:25 PM
bobad 16 Oct 11 - 08:31 AM
Charley Noble 16 Oct 11 - 09:58 AM
bobad 16 Oct 11 - 10:59 AM
bobad 20 Oct 11 - 07:45 AM
bobad 20 Oct 11 - 08:15 AM
GUEST,Bluesman 20 Oct 11 - 08:17 AM
BTNG 20 Oct 11 - 11:13 AM
BTNG 20 Oct 11 - 11:29 AM
Charley Noble 20 Oct 11 - 11:59 AM
BTNG 20 Oct 11 - 01:32 PM
Charley Noble 20 Oct 11 - 04:04 PM
BTNG 20 Oct 11 - 04:09 PM
Charley Noble 20 Oct 11 - 04:12 PM
Charley Noble 21 Oct 11 - 08:09 AM
BTNG 21 Oct 11 - 10:33 AM
BTNG 21 Oct 11 - 11:24 AM
Charley Noble 22 Oct 11 - 09:41 AM
Charley Noble 20 Nov 11 - 05:40 PM
Charley Noble 22 Nov 11 - 11:00 AM
number 6 19 Mar 12 - 07:14 PM
Teribus 20 Mar 12 - 01:39 AM
Charley Noble 20 Mar 12 - 08:53 AM
GUEST,giovanni 21 Mar 12 - 01:54 AM
Teribus 21 Mar 12 - 02:12 AM

Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: olddude
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 04:05 PM

CNN just reporting tomahawk cruise missiles attacking Tripoli from US warships ... My God


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 04:06 PM

What would their objective be in doing that?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: BTNG
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 04:11 PM

their objective...simple...proving once again that the USA can't mind it's own business...and then wonder why the likes of 911 happened


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 04:42 PM

Sarkozy talking on Youtube


BBC News


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 04:45 PM

Live Newsfeed on the BBC


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: kendall
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 05:06 PM

Just what we don't need, another illegal goddamn war.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 05:07 PM

It is being reported that 110 Tomahawk cruise missiles were launched at 20 targets, those being missile defense systems around Tripoli and Misurata.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 05:21 PM

110 cruise missles ... here we go again.

20th century solutions for 21st cenrury problems.

not all of those 110 missiles will make an accurate hit.

biLL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 05:30 PM

Well that's just tough isn't it. Gadaffi deserves a good biffing.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 05:36 PM

Don't mind Gadaffi getting a good biffing, but tehre will probaly be a lot of innocent people killed.

I thought there was an air ban only.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: BTNG
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 05:37 PM

can a land invasion be far behind?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 05:40 PM

In order to enforce an air ban the air defense systems have to be taken out -- those were the target of the missile strikes.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 05:41 PM

Sad, yet again the policemen of the world go in guns blazing.

We will pay a high price for this, starting with £2.00 a litre at the pumps within two weeks.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 05:41 PM

Won't be a land invasion.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: gnu
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 05:45 PM

Smoke and mirrors at the cost of lives. Quackdaffy is a puppet and he dances well for the puppetmasters. While innocent people die. It's sickening.

Kendall... illegal war... worse than that IMO.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 05:54 PM

illegal war???

It is the imposition of a no fly zone sanctioned by the UN security council, the Arab League and the Gulf Cooperation Council.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 06:02 PM

Yeah. Let the bastard who was involved in the Lockerbie bombing kill his own people. As least we'll have clean hands. Our consciences may suffer a bit, but wtf, huh?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 06:03 PM

The last thing we need tonight is to become involved in another theatre of war. Ground troops will go in at some point.

Can you pay for a war on a credit card ???


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 06:08 PM

Bobad ....   "sanctioned by the UN security council, the Arab League and the Gulf Cooperation Council"

Now that this has been sanctioned ... who's next on the list ... Israel ??

biLL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 06:17 PM

Proxy civil war launched by sympathizers of a foreign power. When they start losing the sponsoring power moves in.

The US is annexing the Sudetenland.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 06:31 PM

"Now that this has been sanctioned ... who's next on the list ... Israel ??"

I am somehow reminded of the non-interventionists who stood by clucking their tongues as the Jewish population of Europe was nearly exterminated.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 06:32 PM

clarification on my post above.

Now that that the U.S. has been sanctioned for the go ahead to revenge Gaddafi ... who says the mideast countries cannot have revenge on Israel.

revenge ... an evil human primitive action.

biLL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 06:53 PM

With this military intervention by the U.S., U.K. France in Libya, the whole situation in the mideast will not only get more complicated but the violence against humanity will certainly worsen.


biLL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: BTNG
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 07:09 PM

"I am somehow reminded of the non-interventionists who stood by clucking their tongues as the Jewish population of Europe was nearly exterminated"

Right, and what was it the Allied military powers did to alleviate the situation? The word nothing raises its ugly head. Anti-Semetism wasn't just a disease found amongst The Axis Powers.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: skipy
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 07:40 PM

This one is a "legal" war, bring it on! 110 is just a start.
Skipy
Full of the joys of spring.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 07:49 PM

Protesters have staged rallies around the world to voice their anger as the Israeli offensive in the Gaza Strip entered a third week.

Palestinian militants in Gaza have fired dozens of missiles into southern Israel in what appears to be their heaviest such barrage in two years.

The Pentagon said more than 100 Tomahawk cruise missiles from U.S. and British ships and submarines had been fired at 20 targets. The Western coalition is reportedly targeting Libyan air defences, especially around Tripoli and the west Libyan city of Misrata.

now ... whose right and whose wrong ... who is legal and who is illegal

yup ... "This one is a "legal" war, bring it on!" Sadly it is sounding more like ... This is all out war ... bring it on baby !

biLL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 07:57 PM

btw ... me above ... "bring it on baby" ... I'm being sarcastic ....doing a General Buck Turgidson there ... sadly there are still too many wannabe (and real) General Buck Turgidson around these days.

biLL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:02 PM

Meanwhile we have a pretty-definitely-indigenous resistance movement crushed by an invading armed force from a neighbouring repressive dictatorship.

Is the US going to send their Tomahawks to Saudi Arabia in support of the Bahreini resistance? Are they fuck.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:06 PM

No, and probably the French Mirages and Canadian F-18s won't show up either.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:10 PM

Tripoli city not attacked, but military bases outside the city were dusted.

(Slow in getting the operations underway, but seem to be speeding up now that the Canadians are on the way).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: skipy
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:11 PM

Revenge for 9/11 & 7/7, they begged for it, now they are getting it!
Skipy


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: olddude
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:14 PM

It doesn't matter what political party wins. The only thing that changes in the White House is the suit, and what guy is wearing it. It is about oil .

Decades come and decades go
and still our children die


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:20 PM

Yeah. Let the bastard who was involved in the Lockerbie bombing kill his own people."

Yeah, well, the bastard who you think was involved in the Lockerbie bombing almost certainly wasn't. You, and anyone else who thinks that Megrahi was guilty, seriously need to do some research. Had Megrahi gone to appeal instead of being released on compassionate grounds he would almost certainly have been pardoned. That path was denied him by our stupid legal system. And it's clear to anyone with a brain that Colonel Gadaffi "admitted" to Libya's involvement for purely cynical, expedient reasons, to get sanctions lifted and to get himself back into the bosom of the family of nations. The sooner the west, particularly the yanks, start to lose this lynch-mob mentality and start to look honestly at the facts of the case, the quicker the victims of Lockerbie will truly get justice. They certainly haven't got it now.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:32 PM

I don't think it is just about oil. It's the threat of a good example. Compare some health statistics, from WHO:

Libya

Saudi Arabia

Libya has half the per capita income of Saudi Arabia, and spends proportionately less of its GDP on health care, but has life expectancy a few years greater and substantially lower infant mortality.

That's what egalitarianism does. The US isn't going to allow it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:35 PM

Strange that the U.N. didn't launch this humanitarian mission years ago to defend Palestinians being murdered by the 51st state of America.

The current situation in Libya It is costing us approximately £17 million an hour.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:41 PM

Well said, Richie.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:48 PM

Funny...those missiles came from US and BRITISH ships and submarines. The first air flights French. Jets from Denmark and Canada are on their way to bases in Italy. Both Germany and the Arab League are supporting this UN-sanctioned action.

Personally, I think this whole thing is wrong. But don't go putting all the blame on the US.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:54 PM

Rap, I believe Germany abstained from voting on the Security Council resolution.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: MarkS
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 10:13 PM

Phil Ochs was right.

"We're the cops of the world."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 10:26 PM

I'm not going to touch this thread with a ten-foot pole.

See you all later.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: J-boy
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 10:45 PM

I'm so sick of this shit it makes me want to head out for the hills and hang with Jeremiah Johnson.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 01:03 AM

"You skin this and I'll go get you another."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 02:24 AM

"Yeah, well, the bastard who you think was involved in the Lockerbie bombing almost certainly wasn't"

First, you have no idea what I think.

Second, the bastard I was referring to was Gaddafi.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:27 AM

Still not sure why the UN has gone into Libya, yet remains deaf, blind and very dumb over Zimbabwe and Mugabe who's killed so many of his own people...

Isn't it weird though, that the countries we always seem to invade have something we want, whilst those who don't are allowed to continue their atrocities unabated...

The Causes of War are nearly as slippery as Oil itself.....


Sorry, People of Zimbabwe, we WOULD come and help, but er...we're fighting this Oil War at present, but don't panic, try to hold on, because we'll be there soon as we can..........


Meanwhile, back in the Middle East the soft mumblings of 'jihad' will soon rise to an almighty "****JIHAD!!!*****" as the Mighty Mullahs whip their people up into a foaming frenzy against the Wicked Witches & Wizards of the West.....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:27 AM

At least two corrupt political systems hoping for a "Falklands bounce".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 04:20 AM

Considering how much Britain is in debt and how much cost cutting is happening here, I question the UK being involved at all,aprt from giving the OK.

Who will pay for this Mr Cameron?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: InOBU
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 05:07 AM

And when the US, overextended and hated falls under inflation and the weight of the evil it does overseas and at home, how quickly will Americans turn on each other and point fingers, rather than demanding now, the we stop using war to suddunly bolster up our endangered ecconomy.
How strange that just as the US becomes unsure of its ability to maintain its position as the reserve currency, we begin to make war around the world - folks we dealt with for years and excused their evil are now in our gunsites... not every where mind you, but in the places which are questioning using the US dollar as their transactional currency.
It is time to put some leaders on trial for the crime of killing people in lands with which we have no declaired war. We talk of the UN giving this murder sanction, but what about individuals we are killing in Pakistan, kidnapping in Italy... this has become a lawless nation and the real Nevel Chamberlands are the ones who excuse the actions of this nation.
Germany called all its expantionist actions justified by past wrongs. We are a nation tottering on ecconomic disaster responding by war. Just as in the gulf of Tonkin, we can always find or make excuses to go to war.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,bankley
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 05:24 AM

March 19, 2003 - Bush / Iraq
March 19, 2011 - Obama / Libya

I believe some things don't Change


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Allan Conn
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 05:45 AM

"I believe Germany abstained from voting on the Security Council resolution."

Britain and 'unusually' France have been advocators of action. Germany like Russia, China, Brazil and India did abstain from the vote. No-one voted against it and of course wouldn't a Russian or Chinese no vote be a veto on the action itself? Germany seems disinclined to be involved directly but Chancellor Merkel has hinted at offers of help - one of which possibly would be deploying more troops in Afghanistan to free up some there. The African and Middle-Eastern countries on the council at the moment all voted for the resolution and the Arab League were calling for it. So whatever one thinks about the action itself I think it is a bit unfair if some use it as another opportunity for a round of American bashing


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Brian May
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 06:08 AM

Well, without being emotional.

In order to enforce THIS No-Fly Zone (which historically don't actually seem to do much good), you need to be able to enforce it.

In enforcing it then Air Superiority is essential. You do NOT have Air Superiority if your enforcing aircraft are susceptible to SAM attack/defence (depending on your viewpoint).

Libya has quite sophisticated ground to air defence which includes Command and Control assets in addition to the missiles and AAA - plus their ability to service, re-supply and repair them.

It is these that would be attacked (and the cynic in me thinks there may just be one or two other 'targets').

Above are facts. What makes me squirm are the photos of Tony Bliar and Gaddafi having a cuddle not too long ago. How we (the Brits) welcomed this pariah in from the cold. Most rank and file Brits found that embarrassing and distasteful - without the PANAM bomber stuff, that just made it worse.

Now we're attacking our 'good mate' because he's vowed to show no mercy to his (revolting, as he sees it) population.

Notice the consistency of the UN here. How quickly was this resolution of legality passed? Look how quickly they responded to Darfur (oops did I say that?).

The cynic in me thinks the only missing ingredient to the genocide 'we' so quickly reacted to in Darfur is OIL.

But I'm sure our public servants wouldn't be so shallow . . .


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 06:13 AM

And the "rebels" shot down their own jet!! The lefties ought to be glad that the former oil workers in Libya no longer have the opportunity to earn UK tax free salaries there.

By the way, we don't care what goes on in Rhodesia - it's of no consequence!!!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 06:20 AM

You don't declare a cease fire or even a seven fire one minute and then carry on bombing your own people the next. Thank goodness we now have a properly schooled statesman - like leader in David Cameron and not the hideous bumbling Brown!!!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 07:33 AM

<>i>Yeah, well, the bastard who you think was involved in the Lockerbie bombing almost certainly wasn't"

First, you have no idea what I think.

Second, the bastard I was referring to was Gaddafi.

Yeah, well, I meant not him as well. I've spent many a long hour looking at this case. I'm completely convinced that Libya was not involved. Try doing the same. It's an eye-watering miscarriage of justice, and, as I said, the people who have not got justice (apart from Megrahi) are the families' victims.

But I will agree with you that Gaddafi is a bastard. Just not for that reason.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Arnie
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 07:37 AM

Difficult to know what to do for the best here. With memories of the Srebenica massacre still being invoked, it would be seen as a repeat performance if the UN stood back and let mad-dog Gaddafi's murderous bunch loose on Benghazi with almost a million citizens living there.He has promised to root out the rebels (ie: everyone)house by house. I suspect that the atrocities that would be visited on these civilians would evenutally prompt some form of UN action but it would be too late to save many innocent lives. I suppose the best hope is that the Libyan military depose Gaddafi rather than see their assets blown to bits over the next few weeks. Unfortunately we're told that the command structure of the Libyan army is dominated by Gaddafi loyalists and will protect their man to the bitter end.If boots on the ground are needed, then it's time for the Arab league to stand up and prove that they are not just a talking shop.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 07:38 AM

Sorry, badly-garbled post. Yertis again, proper job.

Yeah, well, the bastard who you think was involved in the Lockerbie bombing almost certainly wasn't"

First, you have no idea what I think.

Second, the bastard I was referring to was Gaddafi.


Yeah, well, I meant not him as well. I've spent many a long hour looking at this case. I'm completely convinced that Libya was not involved. Try doing the same. It's an eye-watering miscarriage of justice, and, as I said, the people who have not got justice (apart from Megrahi) are the families' victims.

But I will agree with you that Gaddafi is a bastard. Just not for that reason.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 08:13 AM

I guess what bothers me the most is this idea that what is occurring in the Middle East and Northern Africa is probably going to be more regime change than meaningful change... I mean, even if some sore of bastardized democracy comes out of it I am fearful that the wealthy, like here in the US, will screw it up so that they continue to monopolize the wealth for themselves...

What we need more than the rearranging of deck chairs is a "revolution" in our thinking where greed and cheating and replaced with sharing and fairness... Until the US, which seems to be the model, cleans up it's act I don't see any fundamental changes occurring by booting one bad guy, putting in what folks might thing is a good guy only to see that good guy become the new bad guy...

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss... Or...

...("Animal Farm", George Orwell...)...

Same story...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 09:12 AM

...glass half empty??????


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 09:24 AM

I totally disagree with this action.
If there was consistency about american and european interference in other countries internal affairs, it might be more acceptable, but in truth the west does not care one iota about dictators killing their citizens, if they did they would have acted against Mugabe in Zimbabwe,The leader of the Yemen, Pinochet in Chile[ 30 YEARS OR SO AGO].
the west has tolerated gaddaffi for 40 years because it suited them, they do not care a fig about the people of libya


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 09:26 AM

well said Bobert ... 20 Mar 11 - 08:13 AM

I agree

biLL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 09:48 AM

Pity there wasn't such compassion shown to stop the Ethiopian civil war.
Can we expect the U.N.to launch humanitarian missions in other countries in an effort to save millions from being slaughtered by other lunatic dictators ?

As I recall, they didn't bomb China after the events in Tiananmen Square. Or pull North Korea over their dreadful human rights record.

So what is it a case of, China/North Korea not having oil, or would it be their massive firepower ?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 09:53 AM

A "no-fly zone" means no flying is allowed by the forces against which it is directed.

The first logical stage in enforcing this is proper monitoring to ensure that it is being observed.

Only if there is evidence that it is being ignored is it appropriate to send up aircraft to enforce it, and the matter of ground-missiles etc become relevant.

Otherwise it's a bit like telling bank robbers to come out with their hands up, and shooting them when they do.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 10:20 AM

"So what is it a case of, China/North Korea not having oil, or would it be their massive firepower ?"

It's both of those, Richie. Politics is a matter of sheer pragmatism, and pragmatism trumps principle. Regardless of their rhetoric (which is mostly designed to placate their own public and make themselves look noble), governments undertake military actions of choice only when they think they can:

1. afford to do it
2. and succeed at doing it

Sometimes they miscalculate on both of those accounts. Time will tell whether they have miscalculated when it comes to getting involved in the conflict in Lybia.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 10:50 AM

The mandate of resolution 1973 is a bit broader than just the imposition of a no fly zone, it also authorizes member states to "take all necessary measures to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, including Benghazi, while excluding a foreign occupation force of any form on any part of Libyan territory."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 11:52 AM

Problem is George, when they miscalculate, hundereds of thousands die and the war mongers walk away to write their memoirs or take up lucrative jobs as "peace envoys".

The men women and children of Iraq, Afghanistan and now Libya are the victims.

These people are seeing their children killed and mutilated for a lie
Democracy is not freedom, especially the type of democracy granted to to us.....and they can look forward to something even worse.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 11:55 AM

How do you define a civilian, insurgent, rebel, terrorist bobad?

Weasel words from weasel governments!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 12:04 PM

The Arab League has criticised the military strikes on Libya.
The Arab League said that Arabs did not want military strikes by Western powers. Only Qatar has openly supported the campaign.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 12:24 PM

Here we go again...

If the US and it's buddies are so interested in regime change why is it that they kill everyone else first before getting to the bad guy???

Two week before the Iraq invasion Dan Rather got to sit across the table from Saddam... If Dan Rather could get that close, don't tell me that a Special Op couldn't...

Same with Gadaffi... If yer gonna kill him anyway why not just do itr and leave everyone else alive???

(But, Boberdz... We don't approve of assassination...)

Oh??? But blowing up other folks is okay???

Give me a break...

Shoot the sumabich and call it a day...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: JHW
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 12:38 PM

Killing one bastard in Iraq seemed like a good idea but the place turned out to be full of them


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 01:14 PM

Charlie, don't want to get your feet dirty?


(Neither do I).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 01:40 PM

1. If the term "civilian" is to have any meaning in the internal Libyan conflict it can only refer to someone who is not an insurrectionist. Compare the IRA. Notice the word "Army" in their name?

2. Gadaffi's threats (at least as far as I read) were only against those not yielding to his advancing troops.

3. The troops were legitimately deployed against rebels - whichever side you prefer, and I probably prefer the rebels but preference is not the point, legitimacy is).

4. That deployment was internal to Libya and posed no threat to any external politic.

5.   For the UN to assume jurisdiction over such an internal matter is iffy at best. It wasn't a threatened genocide and the UN has ignored enough genocides over the years to constitute precedent.

6. I have not seen (that doesn't mean there isn't any, just that I haven't seen it) any threat of civilian (as I defined it) massacre.

7. So there was no pressing reason to enforce a "no-fly" zone anyway (other than a desire to interfere).

8. Gadaffi's missile sites around Tripoli were not apt for use for any massacre of civilians in Benghazi.

9. They had not been deployed against any foreign aircraft or other targets.

10. Thus the "Allied" assault can only have been a pre-emptive strike (not legitimate under international law) on an internal mission in a sovereign state (not legitimate under international law) as a matter of interference in internal politics (not legitimate under international law).

11. The position might have been different if there were a declared war or steps by Libya to launch an undeclared war - but there is no sign of any such.

This is colonialist aggression.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:00 PM

As I was turning off my computer last night, I took one quick peek at Mudcat and saw this thread. My first reaction was to want to lead an armed rebellion on Washington, D. C.

But wanting to find out a few more facts, I then turned on the radio to my local NPR affiliate. I was informed that the air attack on Libya just under way had been ordered by the UNITED NATIONS, was being spearheaded by FRENCH fighter jets, and the Tomahawk missiles were being fired from BRITISH submarines offshore. There were AMERICAN F-18 fighter jets involved, along with Harrier jump-jets, which I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) are BRITISH, going after the Libyan air defense system.

And where did I hear this spurious and slanderous report trying whitewash the roll of yet another heinous American grab for oil by trying to implicate other counties, such as Britain and France? Obviously, from that well-known voice of the American Right Wing—National Public Radio.

Nope. What I was listening to was NPR's regular midnight news feed from—

(Steady, now. . . .)

The BBC.

The only exercise some people around here seem to get is instantaneous knee-jerk reactions.

You might learn a few facts before gleefully piling on.

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:14 PM

Obviously, this is not a country that does polls or allows polls to be done, but has anyone any idea what percentage of Libyans actually support his leadership. I imagine the rebels are in the minority.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:30 PM

I am wondering the same myself, Richie. The only reference I've heard is from an analyst on AlJazeera who said that the vast majority are opposed to him.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:36 PM

Yeah, would have been nice if there has been polls in Iraq prior to Bush ordering up the invasion... Yeah, ever hear where the cure is worse than the disease???

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:38 PM

The Libyan armed forces have just announced a cease fire...again.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:39 PM

Doesn't you heart yearn for the good old days when John Wayne and William Bendix would have polished these bastards off in five minutes? Just a few B feature actors for the Duke to shove around, whip into shape and grow a few sweaty whiskers for Bendix's death scene. Then maybe a walk-on at the end for Henry Fonda to give out a Congressional Medal of honour to the Duke and a few purple hearts to the B actors.

Those cats knew how to have a war.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:43 PM

Al, John Wayne a Draft Dodger.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:45 PM

Especially John Wayne, who took on the Nazis in hand-to-hand combat while never leaving Hollywood for the entire 1940's.

Classic American hero.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: gnu
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 04:53 PM

Don't ye all go badmouthin The Duke. He was one of the best cheerleaders ever in the good ol US of A eh!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 05:07 PM

Cheerleader? Then there's The Great Prestigitator- Ronnie RayGun- who is responsible for the crapper that the U.S. is currently in. Ably assisted by The Duke.

Both spinners of delusional fantasy. And the Boobocracy ate 'em up.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: gnu
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 05:29 PM

Now yer talkin showman... barker. What is gonna take to get you to buy this war now? If you walk out that door the boss may not give you near as good a deal when you come back.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 05:40 PM

SUCH A DEAL!

No thanks, I'll pass.

Had enuf idiotic, pointless and ultimately self-defeating wars for ten lifetimes.

But thanks for asking.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 06:20 PM

"How do you define a civilian, insurgent, rebel, terrorist bobad?"

When tanks and heavy artillery have surrounded and are shelling cities I consider that an attack on civilians.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 07:20 PM

Oh, didn't Israel do that in both Gaza and the Lebanon - specifically civilian positions? And the Allies to Berlin in WWII?

How do you invade a city held by rebels without shelling enemy positions?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 07:35 PM

"proxy civil war launched by sympathizers of a foreign power" ...."Sudetenland"

Gee, the poster has actually read some history.   The fans go wild.

Now perhaps he can find some actual evidence that the Libyan uprising was "launched by sympathizers of a foreign power".

But I don't think we should hold our collective breath waiting for said evidence.

Another sterling example of folkie strategic thinking.   No wonder folkies are so admired for this in the wider world.

Nobody, however can say that Mudcat conspiracy theories are not entertaining--as long as logic, sense, and facts are not of primary concern.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 08:43 PM

GUEST,bankley;
"March 19, 2003 - Bush / Iraq
March 19, 2011 - Obama / Libya
I believe some things don't Change"

Blankley, THANK YOU for bringing this post to the attention of our Mudcat partisan, devotees!!! You are scratching the surface, of what is hidden, behind the charade, and facade, of what a bunch of these people can't see, because of their subscription to which ever, the most persuasive propaganda, which has been 'tailor-made' to their pre-programming!! It has blinded a lot of folks out there, let alone on here!!

GfS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 09:28 PM

"But I don't think we should hold our collective breath waiting for said evidence."

You shouldn't hold your breath waiting for ANY future post, Ron, either pro or con. Your body needs oxygen, and it is uncertain when the next post from any other person might come. You could fall unconscious before it did or even die! Therefore I suggest that you stop making remarks about us all "holding our collective breath waiting" for this or that, as it wouldn't be a practical idea at all, and it serves no useful rhetorical purpose either in the sense of advancing any form of rational argument. ;-)

If you have been holding your breath waiting for people you disagree with to either offer evidence or say something to change your mind, I suggest that you discontinue that unhealthy practice ASAP!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 10:06 PM

Let's just see what develops--as I say, Mudcat conspiracy theories are at least entertaining--with the caveat I mentioned.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 10:23 PM

What makes this into a nighmare. Bloody Cameron pretending he knows what he's doing. Nobody can even guess how this is going to turn out.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 10:51 PM

I'm just waiting for Bobert and Amos to pop up and do some Obama cheer-leading. At least Don Firth has expressed some disappointment, with the 'Calamitter in Chief'.....actually, I don't entirely blame Obama for this, but I would blame him for not leveling with the American people, and reveal what's really going on,* and just who is pulling the strings! I think that if he did, and could prove it, both sides would rally behind him, after a bit of skepticism. I think the involved American public are tired of having their intelligence insulted, and treated like a bunch of nobodies, as if we don't matter!

GfS

*Unless he is only responding to Muslim uprisings, and then and only when they are really in trouble.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 11:08 PM

"...pulling the strings...."   

Ah yes, perhaps the dark conspiracy theorist's favorite phrase.

Whenever there's any mystery, "they" must be behind it.

It's rather amazing how popular that phrase--and that theory--is across the whole political spectrum--with anybody who doesn't bother to do research.

I'll admit it certainly is a great excuse for laziness--and of course lazy people can be found across the whole political spectrum.

So its popularity should really not be surprising, I suppose.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 11:59 PM

Why is action being taken by the West in Libya, specifically? Out of altruism only? I doubt that. There must be a number of serious pragmatic reasons for doing so, I would think. I don't call that a "conspiracy", I call it Realpolitik, as always. Countries make moves that they think will be of benefit to themselves in the long run. Various objectives are being sought. One of them might be just to get rid of Gadhafi, because he's a loose cannon and a problem for just about everyone. I could understand the West having such an objective...but that's not altruism. That's practical politics with an objective that makes sense.

Why did the West choose to side with the Libyan rebels? Altruism? Well, that's why the general populace in the West (including me and Ron Davies) sympathizes with the rebels...but I very much doubt that it's the reason why several western powers are intervening in the crisis. I think they see an opportunity...but for what, I couldn't say.

I have no theories to propound about it..."conspiracy" or otherwise. I just think it's another round of power politics, that's all. Gadhafi appears to have worn out his welcome with his former friends in the West, so he'll probably be replaced in awhile by someone else.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: BTNG
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 12:04 AM

why is it that right wing loonies like bonzo_3_legs think that just because one doesn't support David Cameron and that political opportunist Nick Clegg, one MUST have voted Labour? no logic there. But when did the right wing ever allow logic to get in the way of their agenda?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 12:29 AM

The only logic most people will tolerate is that which supports their chosen position. They ignore all other forms of logic. This is equally true of most people on both the Right and the Left (though my sympathies lie almost entirely with the Left).

What I'm saying is: I recognize the bullshit, hypocrisy, and self-serving nonsense that is so common on both sides of the table....but I like the original philosophical bent of the Left far better in most respects.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 12:40 AM

Little Hawk: "Why is action being taken by the West in Libya, specifically?...."

Possibly the oil hub....but, in all honesty, I'm not exactly sure of all the reasons..but the big terminals are in the east. I've been more focused these days on the music. Just did a two night concert gig, and wrote some stuff for a new female vocalist to try. It went over great! ..even tears in the audience. Great song!..and she pulled it off(a gambled for surprise).

Ron Davies: ""...pulling the strings...."   

Ah yes, perhaps the dark conspiracy theorist's favorite phrase."

OKAY, you tell me how someone can be so negligent, and rule against the will of the people, AND the Constitution, without getting directives from elsewhere. I was trying to give him credit for not being so blatantly incompetent..but, you can have it your way, too....I could buy that.....but something here doesn't quite wash, as being up and above board, wouldn't you say??...unless, of course you are one of those people who support wars where we don't belong.(?)
In that case, I would think you supported both Bush's excursions into the mid-east...or Reagan's venture, in bombing Qaddafi...maybe you were. That's your prerogative.
But it ain't no 'conspiracy theory'....its just the way it is.

GfS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 04:04 AM

All the Obama "liberals" seem to have mysteriously vanished.....have they been incarcerated by the forces of darkness?

Or is there another reason?

Conspiracy lives!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 04:13 AM

Naw, Now that he's been in office long enough for the dummies to finally get what he's about, I think they're too embarrassed; his supporters are afraid of being found out as being lamer than polka-dotted shit balls....with pansies growing out of them!..He is just getting to hard to defend, with a straight face!
They just didn't listen, when I was calling him Oblabbo, during the elections. We don't have leaders here in America...we've got celebrity salesmen.....and bogus crusaders!!!

GfS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 04:28 AM

One thing that has struck me about this is how the UN resolution hasn't learnt anything from the way the remarkable way in which these rebellions were organised and has a concept of war that is still frankly 19th century. For example, I am sure it must be possible to jam or disable the means to make television or radio broadcasts which would greatly reduce the propaganda advantage Gaddafi has; but I am not at all clear that is authorised under the resolution


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 04:35 AM

Good morning.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 04:35 AM

100


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 04:54 AM

Get real DMcG. Aircaft couldn't hit the enemy in WW2 and used to hit our guys despite the fact that our tanks had a big white star on top. In the Falklands, they coudn't disable something as big as a bloody airfield.

Nowadays airplanes go even faster. they're bound to miss their targets and kill innocent folk.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 05:53 AM

I think I am real enough, Alan. I did not say jamming was an alternative to other action, did I? I think it is the kind of action we should undertake *in addition* to other means. Yet the phrasing of the resolution is addressed squarely at troops and military facilities, so the allies would need to be trying to find a way of justifying attacking propaganda sources on the grounds of their military significance. Our experience of the significance of propaganda in almost 20th century wars is such I feel it should have been included more directly.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 08:18 AM

Getting sucked into this thread again!

Oh, I'm sure the European nations as well as the United States and the Arab League are all piling on Gaddafi and his family for the primary reason of restoring stability in the world oil market, and some modicum of concern for the humanitarian situation. It is a popular cause worldwide, evidently. Everything works well in this case for intervention, although it came at the last possible moment.

Note that the Republicans in the States have now shifted their critique from "intervention was needed yesterday" to "too much intervention too late."

The Arab League after a few stumbles seems to be back on board this morning. But real military support from Arab nations is needed fast to maintain popular support for the Coalition effort.

But who made the cut for the "Final Four"?

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 08:43 AM

The Canadian CF-18's are now in Italy. They are getting an oil change and having the winter tires changed for all seasons (I hear they got a good deal on some Perelli's) . They should be ready to help in kicking some ass by the end of this week.

biLL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 10:48 AM

As long as they make sure that the son goes too, the younger Gaddafi looks dangerous to me.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 11:07 AM

No he's making sure that his record collection is not bombed, or whatever it is that he collects!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 11:34 AM

GfS ... "We don't have leaders here in America...we've got celebrity salesmen"

and the Commander in Chief, he's got style .... initiates a military strike ... immediately gets on a plane and flies down to Rio, ok it was actually Brazilia.

I can see him there now, sitting on a patio with Dilma Vana Rousseff .... Obama in a Hawiian shirt, a pair of Oakley's on, a caprahini in one hand, his blackberry in the other ... texting with the war room back home, and at the same time praising to Dilma on how Brazil is a model for peace and democracy.

biLL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 11:55 AM

Argument A: The West lusts for oil, so it lets Gaddafi kill the rebels to make sure he keeps selling it to us.

Argument B: The West lusts for oil, so it kills Libyans to make sure we get it.

Fact: The West doesn't *steal* oil from OPEC. It *buys* it. OPEC wants our money. And if you haven't noticed, OPEC charges as much as it can get. That would be true no matter who rules in Tripoli. (Unless, of course, it turns out the rebels are big fans of         al-Qaeda.)

So if the West is so fiendish, why not do nothing or even help Gaddafi smash the rebels to let the oil flow? Doing nothing, or helping the G-ster, would also tell our other oil buddies to crack down harder on their own dissidents. (And you know they want to.)

But we're bombing Gaddafi. So any oil conspiracy would be far, far more diabolical than anyone can imagine.

Is it to divert us from global warming? The economy? Justin Bieber?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 12:02 PM

DMcG: "One thing that has struck me about this is how the UN resolution hasn't learnt anything from the way the remarkable way in which these rebellions were organised and has a concept of war that is still frankly 19th century."

What's just as bad, is that WE (the Allies), are not learning, either. We are getting entangled, and getting bogged down all over the Mideast, sorta like Tar Baby and the brier patch, and very much like the Roman Empire, who got spread all over the place, in a series of small wars, which was the final blow, to them(along with their decaying morals). We, like the Romans, cannot afford to be enforcing 'peace'(?), in every place we have trading interests, and the Muslims in the Mideast, with their goals, may have created 'quicksand' to lure us into, much like a repeat of Rome.
Also, I'm sure we have to repay the Europeans, for their participation, in the Iraq, Pakistan, Afghan (etc) excursions.

But, alas, we shortsighted, short memory span, Yanks can get all whooped up emotionally about the politics of it, and all too often forget the common sense of it, as long as the 'news' media can keep us 'entertained with it'.

History teaches us, that man never learns from history!!!

Bush had his, Obama has got his..but were either of them, really in charge?

Meanwhile, Israel is getting fired on by missiles. When they finally get pissed off enough, without the U.S. to restrain them, this whole thing could EASILY ignite to a full blown, massive human catastrophe, that could spread everywhere!(Depending on whom is going to ally with whom).

I very much question the wisdom of this, and other Mideast excursions into the brier patch, to visit the Tar Baby, (or 'Oil Baby', if you will).
If we need oil, get it from here, while transforming our energy sources.....but the overly left, get all pissy about drilling....but love their gas, and plastic etc.   

Charley Noble: "Note that the Republicans in the States have now shifted their critique from "intervention was needed yesterday" to "too much intervention too late."

I just heard a person who worked in the Reagan White House, express some of the same concerns that I just posted....she ended with "I don't know about this one, its all too fuzzy, to know what's really going on."

I agree with her, coupled with the fact, that this Administration is acting like, the people here don't matter, nor need to be told, nor would support an 'up and above board' effort.

This is not good.........but then, ..I read the Book, and have a clue how it ends! So far, its accuracy is more astounding than I even previously imagined!

GfS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 12:51 PM

I wonder why our leaders are not chosen from Mudcat!!!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 01:38 PM

Poster is apparently akenaton

Apparently planes are attacking Gadaffi's troops as they retreat.

So much for the UN resolution!

Somebody up above said, "its like telling them to come out with their hands up.....then shooting them!

I hate war, but this type of "war game" played by computer makes me feel even more sick.

If your going to massacre people, at least you should be forced to smell the burning flesh and hear the screams.

I'm startin' to get very fuckin' angry!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 01:41 PM

You'll get even more pissed off when your post is deleted because ya didn't use your usual moniker. fyi


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 02:25 PM

As I said elsewhere, Ake, give us your evidence that Gadhafi is a reasonable person. Why exactly should we let him go back to wiping out his opposition--which has appealed to us over and over for assistance?

So sorry there is not enough "smell of burning flesh" to suit you.   I suspect Mr. Gadhafi would have been willing to give you all you need.

Perhaps you would like to seek professional help for your obsession.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 04:25 PM

And as I just said on another thread, Ron...

"I haven't heard of anyone who thinks Gadhafi is a "reasonable person" (except Gadhafi himself, possibly), so the question you asked of Ake in that respect is just another pointless snide remark uttered with no other purpose than to sneer in Ake's general direction and imply that he's a halfwit or a simpleton."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 05:15 PM

Thanks LH ......and Brucie :0)

Ron of course I don't think Gadaffi is a "reasonable" person, but on the other hand I dont think any "reasonable" person can successfully govern a country such as Iraq, Afghanistan, or even Libya, as a "liberal democracy".
I was giving our new Prime minister Cameron the benefit of the doubt, as he and his government have inherited a huge albatross in the form of the national financial deficite, but his actions over this issue have made me think again.

He came across as a pompous, smug, well fed, public schoolboy, parroting rhetoric straight out of some upper class boy's war comic.

Stupid, uncaring and blind to the real issues involved in the attack on a sovereign nation.

I'm sorry to say so Ron, but I feel your simplistic take on this does no credit to someone who appears to have an above average grasp of political machinations

If you would spend less time verbally abusing Little Hawk and instead attempt to learn a fraction of his insight, you would perhaps find yourself a wiser, more interesting and better liked


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 05:54 PM

Years since ive been on here, but i have to say, its a sad state of affairs when military force is used, and i hope to whatever god there could possibly be that one day we wont ever have to do it again, but I wouldnt want to live in a world where we had left Gadaffi's forces to enter Benghazi and carry out his threats, the no fly zone has to be enforced with force, we have learnt from Bosnia where allied pilots got a ringside view of 8000 men & boys being executed and couldnt do a damn thing about it. And yes, there other problems in the world and other dictators, and to be honest i dont have the answers, but that doesnt mean we shouldnt help out with this one.
All these people want is to walk into a polling booth and change theyre government with a pen, its a right that we take for granted and sadly too few people choose to participate in. Every democracy that exists has cost bloodshed, when the fighting is over its remembered, its not taken for granted, it will be mourned for many years, but its the one thing that makes our freedom and democracy worth having. I wish the Lybian people well, and hope the armed forces realise they are in a fight they cannot and will not win and turn on Gadaffi A.S.A.P.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 06:06 PM

Steve....If Gadaffi's aim was to "massacre civilians" he could have accomplished that in two minutes by a rocket attack on areas with high density populations.......and what would Col Gadaffi have to gain from such a course of action?

The targets are plainly the "rebels", "insurgents", "Terrorists", "freedom fighters", take your pick   they were with us in Iraq and are with us still.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 06:22 PM

On the one hand, I think Gadhafi provoked the whole thing in the first place by violently suppressing demonstrators. On the other hand, he is now doing what any sovereign state does in the face of a rebellion, and sending out the police and military to crush the rebels. Every state does that in the face of armed rebellion.

I do not sympathize with Gadhafi in any way, and I hope he is removed from power, but I can understand why foreign intervention is viewed by some as an illegal intervention into the domestic affairs of Libya.

So there's reason present on both sides of this argument.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 06:52 PM

@ Akenaton, isnt that exactly what he was doing, shelling Benghazi and other cities indiscriminately, yeh ok, his beef was with the rebels, but dont think for one minute he would have stopped the fighting / shelling to let the local school children cross the road!!! he threatend to go from house to house hunting people down, put yourself in a postion where you could do something, would you really take the risk, and why is it that everyone seems to think Gadaffi is a man of honour and his word is the truth, while our governments are all blundering liars thats only desire is global domination, personally i would believe the British/French and U.S governments over a tinpot dictator like Gadaffi anytime, i know theyre not perfect, but theyre a long way from that shower of SH*T.
As i said in my prior post, its a sad day when you have to take the gloves off and actually do something nasty, but that time had come, the "Massacre at Benghazi 2011" never happened, and thats to our credit!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 07:10 PM

The ""rebels", "insurgents", "Terrorists", "freedom fighters"" are ordinary citizens who started out peacefully protesting against their oppression and for more democratic representation until they were brutally put upon by a brutal dictator and were forced to take up arms to defend themselves against his brutality.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 07:23 PM

Thats a very good point Bobad, the truth is, in our cozy western democracies, we behave like spoilt children, we have no concept of what its like to live under such a regime, this woolly liberal line that pussyfoots about and harps on about the injustices in the world while not making any decisions to actually do anything is pathetic, the truth is, sometimes, its unpalateable, but you have to get your hands dirty and yes, sometimes bloody for the greater and long term good.
I knew i would get a decent debate here at Mudcat!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 07:25 PM

Or, they could, in accordance with local law, have stopped.

FFS, if rebels rebel, at least they might not winge about it.   They rebel - they might win. Or they might lose. Those are matters of internal politics and nothing to do with anyone else. Indeed, I am starting to suspect that the UN resolution was ultra vires in the first place.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 08:40 PM

So are the critics of the West's response at least all willing to admit that the Libyan uprising started as completely a home-grown action?

So we won't hear any more tripe about a "Sudetenland" parallel or "colonialism" as the origin of the conflict?

That at least would be a step towards wisdom.

One step at a time seems best to explain the situation to some posters


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 10:31 PM

akenaton-

The targets are plainly the "rebels", "insurgents", "Terrorists", "freedom fighters", take your pick   they were with us in Iraq and are with us still.

No, it's not at all clear to me what the range of rebels includes but I think you missed a few students, intellectuals, professionals, military men, and politicians.

The only thing that was simple in this situation is that there was going to be a bloodbath in Benghazi, not to mention in a few other towns that the rebels held. And do you really believe that Gadhaffi's troops would have slaughtered only the "real rebels" and not their families, and not anyone else who happened to be in their neighborhood?

What won't work in this situation is if the Coalition manages to kill more civilians in implementing UN resolution 1973 than Gadahaffi would have. Thats one of the things that stank about "our" liberation of Iraq.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: gnu
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 10:44 PM

I haven't read most of this thread. But, the simple fact that Quackdaffy has employed mercenaries from foreign countries disturbs me greatly... why would such be necessary?

Now, the fact that he has rubbed shoulders in photo ops with many, including Blair shortly after (during?) that little Saddam affair, also disturbs me, but, as I said, I haven't read most of this thread.

BP was just setting up operations in Libya. Any connections?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 11:02 PM

These rebels are mostly made up of the young (in there teens and very early twenties) .... this was first evident with the protesters in Egypt and we continue to see in the rest of these mideast countries where upheaval is happening.

What were are seeing is a revolution against the old status quo whatever it may be in the mideast... a dawning of of the 21st century for the mideast. These rebels certainly are not going to embrace the western world and it's 2oth century state of mind and it's form of 2oth century governance. That is why we should not get involved militarily. What the western world is expecting, is not what it will turn out to be. Yes this is a new beginning in the mideast but we will be left behind until the young in the western world revolts against the old status quo here.

The revolution of the young against the old regimes ... the 'change' has to come, for better or worse.

biLL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 11:11 PM

I should add ... and why is this revolution of the young happening in the mideast, and not say Europe, or latin America ... it's because the mideast is more vulnerable to change, it has to change ... they have been manipulated by the Western World, they have had corrupt dictators running their countries and they have been the victims of war and upheaval for the last century ... they having nothing to lose to bring them into this brave new century.

biLL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 01:58 AM

This was a huge mistake, the way we got involved!!..and time will show it!

GfS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 03:40 AM

Well said No 6.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 06:12 AM

If you are going to enforce a "No-Fly" Zone then YOU have to create the conditions such that YOUR aircraft can fly over it without risk of attack. Hence the stikes by French Aircraft and US and British Tomahawk missiles.

"Better the Arabs do it tolerably than that you do it perfectly. It is their war, and you are to help them, not to win it for them." - T.E.Lawrence

And that is exactly what you are seeing here today in Libya. The uprising in Libya has got nothing whatsoever to do with a sudden yearning for democracy in whatever form it might present itself. What you are seeing bubbling over in Libya today is a tribal conflict nothing more, nothing less. The "people of Libya", or at least the people of certain tribal groups in Libya (At least three of such tribal groups) are attempting to rid themselves of the current Kleptocracy that has been ruling the country for 40 years. If anyone thinks that this is anything new for Libya then think again, such uprisings have happened in the past and were put down mercilessly - the policy and practice of "collective punishment" is enshrined in Libyan law (Something introduced by Col. Gaddafi), so please do not worry yourselves about who the "Rebels"; "Insurgents"; "Combatants" are, that simply does not matter to Gaddafi as he has shown in the past. We did not hear about things then because these uprisings happened in Libya's Pariah years when Libya and the regime of Gaddafi were isolated and shunned, nobody reported it. Nobody would have reported this one now had it not been for GWB acting as he did in March 2003. The fate of Iraq and Saddam Hussein registered with Muammar Abu Minyar al-Gaddafi and it shook him rigid because Libya appeared amongst the US Intelligence communities list of potential candidates to play the role of "Rogue State".

As far as the armed forces of the Arab countries go it should be remebered that they are there not to protect the country from an external aggressor, they exist to protect the ruling caste.

- Had the Army in Tunisia turned against the people and started slaughtering them - the UN would have acted

- Had the Army in Egypt turned against the people and started slaughtering them - the UN would have acted

- The Army in Libya plus a whole rake of mecenaries provided by Gaddafi's African friends were ordered out to slaughter the people and - THE UN HAVE ACTED - and they have acted on the specific requests of the Arab League and the The Cooperation Council for the Arab States of the Gulf (Commonly known as the Gulf Cooperation Council the GCC)

In Bahrain the situation is quite different, and again it has nothing whatsoever to do with the events in Tunisia or Egypt, nothing whatsoever to do with human rights or democracy, it is a plain and simple attempt at destabilising a small country by a foreign power - Iran.

Bahrain has a total population of some 1,234,000 people of whom 666,172 are not citizens of Bahrain at all, they are "guest foreign workers". The indigenous population of Bahrain are Sunni Arabs, most of the "guest foreign workers" are Shia Arabs. The largest single ethnic group within this collection of "guest foreign workers" are the Indians some of whom have been living and trading in Bahrain for decades. The Shia Arabs who are "protesting" have been attacking the Indians and trying to drive them out of Bahrain. The rulers of Bahrain appealed for help and assistance from the GCC and got it. Iran has long held claims of sovereignty on Bahrain which has prompted moves to destabilise the country ever since it gained its independence.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 06:53 AM

Rest assured that, in the current jargon, all is:
1 Clear
2 Quite Clear
3 Very Clear
4 Completely Clear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 07:11 AM

Well, they said on BBC News this morning that the UN was in no way trying to bring about a regime change...

So, what the fook are we doing out there then?

Of COURSE that's what they're trying to do. They want the Crazy One out because they're all shitting in their designer suits that he'll stop the oil coming over, or make it impossibly expensive...

That's why they've bowed and kowtowed to him for all these decades, sold him Arms, given him this and that..

He's nuts..but...he's not as nutty as our Leaders, who, despite being leaders of bankrupt countries are now spending zillions on bombing Tripoli...WTF is that about?????

At this rate we'll ALL be owned by the IMF, that's if we're not already, of course..

You know that great song...'Say Goodbye to Oil' by Pete Morton? Well, I suggest we start teaching it in school assemblies...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 07:57 AM

Yanks just admitted they lost a F-15E Strike Eagle, it came down near the rebel-held city of Benghazi just after midnight local time.

The US military said the jet suffered mechanical failure (bullshit) and was not shot down by enemy fire. Both crew members ejected, were recovered and are safe.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 08:00 AM

From the Beeb. UK Armed Forces minister Nick Harvey said it was unclear how long the mission would take, adding that using ground troops "could not be ruled out".

He told the BBC: "We don't know how long this is going to go on for, we don't know for example... whether this might arrive at a state of stalemate or whether in a sense it will be possible to degrade his military capability relatively fast.

"Ask me again in a week, perhaps we'll have a clearer picture of what sort of scale of campaign we're in for."


What resolution was it, then? Remind me...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 08:10 AM

Suppose the Libyan rebels win and the man who now rules Libya is finally brought to trial. How's he gonna be charged?


Gadhafi? Gaddafi? Khaddafy? Kaddafi? Qaddafi?


Considering that the mother fucker should have been shot years ago, I worry he will get off on a technicality.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 08:45 AM

Excellent point, 999!

I was wondering the same thing.

At least the names rhyme, and a great song may yet spring from the depths of this thread!

I'm not convinced that Teribus is correct in his assessment of Libya above but I'll have to do some homework to find out. Certainly the newspapers and other media reports are little assistance.

The more disciplined elements within the rebel armed forces do not appear eager to pursue the retreating Gadhafi forces. Other volunteers rebels pursued them to the outskirts of Ajdabiya and then wisely retreated when they were met by concentrated gunfire and rockets.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 08:56 AM

Well even Ronnie Raygun condemned the deliberate targeting for assassination of national leaders, so I guess that puts you two somewhat to the right of Genghis Khan. Of course, the CIA will be working on something covert, and some White House intern will be busy researching all the euphemisms for "assassination."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:02 AM

Assassination my ass. Shoot the arsehole!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:03 AM

Which would be "assassination." Do you need a reference?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:06 AM

Assassination my ass. Shoot the arsehole!

And how peculiarly transatlantic of you.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:10 AM

'Which would be "assassination." Do you need a reference?'

Not as much as you need manners.

It would be murder, mercy killing, getting even for his own past murders, etc. But a rose by any other name would smell as sweet, and a chrysanthemum by any other name would be easier to spell.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:23 AM

As I said earlier, it would be better for humanity if certain individuals were killed.   Hitler was one.   Gadhafi is another.

Any argument?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:25 AM

Not from me, Ron.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:44 AM

It would be too good for him.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:45 AM

hey .... let's get Khadafi, and let's get Kissinger and we can have a 2 for 1 trial ... whew, what a trial that would be.

On second though, let's forget it .... way too much of the real truth could be exposed.

Just the thought of that can make one understand why these revolts are happening in the mideast.

biLL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 10:21 AM

biLL: "hey .... let's get Khadafi, and let's get Kissinger and we can have a 2 for 1 trial ... whew, what a trial that would be."

I'd go for that!!!

GfS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 10:23 AM

Assassination?

Iraq - Would it have done any good to assassinate Saddam Hussein?

Nope he would have been replaced by one or other of his sons who were ten times worse and a damn sight more unstable. At the time the power was held by a single tribal group that had entrenched itself over the period of two decades. The Saddam Fedaheen; the Special Republican Guard and the Republican Guard were all formed, manned and equipped to keep Saddam Hussein and his family in power by terror and oppression.

Libya - Would it do any good to assassinate Muammar Gaddafi?

Nope he would be immediately replaced by his son Saif backed solidly by their tribe and their allies.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 10:28 AM

THe first US plane has crashed in libya. The military was qucik to point out it was not shot down but instead suffered mechanaical failure.

JEEZZ I would have thought they would have loved to say they were shot down instead of admitting that someone filled the tank with diesel instead of kerosene and put wiper fluid where the transmission fluid should go.

Being a surviving hero seems better than being seen as a flaming idiot


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 10:43 AM

Oh well, listened to a wonderful Sarah McLachlan gig from 3 March at lunchtime today!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 11:26 AM

Evidently one of the US pilots was lifted our by copter.

The other was warmly welcomed by villagers and is probably lifted out by now as well.

If I only believed in hell, it would be nice to think of Gadhafi and his sons roasting there slowly. Anyone have any marshmallows?

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 11:32 AM

Yeah, I'll give you an argument, lynch mob. We live in countries that purport to abide by the rule of law. No matter how vile a criminal may be he's entitled to due process. If you spout on at home about democracy and justice, then mete out ugly brutality in someone else's country, you are absolutely no better than they are. What happened to do as you would be done by?

Not as much as you need manners...

This from a man preaching assassination on a forum! Ha bloody ha.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:07 PM

I can't say I often agree with Teribus, but I do on this one. An assassination in the final quarter of WW2 may be different, but the idea that if Hitler had been killed in say 37 that people like Himmler would have opted for a quiet life in the country minding their own business is, I suggest, unlikely.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:14 PM

And he'll be taken into custody just how, Steve?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:24 PM

I also think Teribus has made some very good points. If you assassinate one tribal potentate, another quickly rises in his place...in this case, it would be Kadhafi's son, of course...and if the son was then assassinated, another such would rise in his place, and right out of the same tribal power structure.

Teribus also says "As far as the armed forces of the Arab countries go it should be remembered that they are there not to protect the country from an external aggressor, they exist to protect the ruling caste."

Yes......okay....but it's overstating the case a little. ;-) What I mean is, yeah, their number one purpose is definitely to protect the ruling caste and keep the domestic public in line....but that doesn't mean that they will not at least attempt to resist an external aggressor...or to launch an external aggression of their own...if given the orders to do so. They most certainly will do both, because it's part of their job. The only question is how effectively will they do it? I doubt that the Libyan Army would do it very effectively.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:29 PM

I heard a further category in this caper this afternoon.......ABSOLUTELY CRYSTAL CLEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:31 PM

It's an Alamo situation for Kaddafi and his soldiers. WILL their leader draw a line in the sand an say, "If you'd like to leave, please do." WHAT ARE the odds?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:33 PM

As plain as the ass on a rainbow-butt monkey!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:44 PM

As Richard Nixon used to say, 999, "When the going gets tough, the tough get going." ;-)

Kadhafi appears to be a man who doesn't give up easily. (And he's very accustomed to getting his own way.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 01:07 PM

Guest 999: "And he'll be taken into custody just how, Steve?"

I think Steve would prefer for Qaddafi to evolve a jail cell around him!
He ain't bangin' on all eight.

GfS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 02:52 PM

Do you remember when President CLinton was told that there was a real holocaust taking place in Rawanda?

He did nothing and over one million people were killed one or two at a time with machetes. Clinton said it was his greatest regret to have done nothing regarding Rawanda.

Obama is apparently responding before a holcaust that was promised by Kadaffy who said 700,000 Libyans in the east will be attacked and killed.

The obvious question is why believe Kadaffy? The obvious answer is that we believe in Libyan oil with or without Kadaffy above all else.

The message over on FOX news is that Obama was a failure for not responding and now that he has responded, Obama is a total failure who in fact may now be legally insane because he responded.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 04:50 PM

Obama will be criticized no matter what he does, Donuel, just as Bush would have been criticized before him, only by different people. Don't worry about it. ;-)

It's quite correct that Obama has behaved illegally, because like a whole long series of American presidents he has taken the country to war without the consent of Congress (after voting on it in Congress). That is illegal, because it's unconstitutional, but almost every president since FDR has done it, so there's nothing unusual about Obama doing it. They have a war, but don't bother declaring it, that's all.

Therefore, although I am observing that he did something unconstitutional and therefore illegal...I am not raising hell about it or pretending to be OUTRAGED! ;-D It's just one more case of the executive office in the USA acting as if it didn't need Congressional approval, and the rest of the government (aside from Dennis Kucinich, that is!) acting as if they didn't notice. It's standard stuff.

So don't make the mistake of imagining I'm up in arms about it. I'm not. I'm just bemused at how they all pretend to worship the Constitution, but they selectively get around it by doing whatever they want to, regardless...

I think it's also illegal to invade another country for quelling an internal revolt...no matter how much you disapprove of the government that's doing the quelling...

But again, the laws aren't really the determining factor at all. The determining factor is a combination of:

1. strategic interests

and

2. whether or not you can get enough public support to invade that other country

If so, and if the strategic interests are weighty enough, then the invasion (or other form of attack) will go ahead, and most people will pretend it is legal, they'll even believe it's legal, and the usual complications will follow.

And EVERYONE involved will swear they are doing it for the most laudable, patriotic, and humanitarian reasons...but they're all doing it for their own gain.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 06:18 PM

Kadaffy who said 700,000 Libyans in the east will be attacked and killed.

He didn't actually. He said that the opposition was just a few hundred, who would be killed if they resisted.

Mind, I don't think we should rely on anything he said, and he's clearly a murderous bastard.But there doesn't seem much reason for thinking he's unusually murderous compared to the other dictators we cosy up to.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 06:22 PM

No, but he's clearly become "dispensable" as far as the West is concerned.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999-- Reuters
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:35 PM

Canadians abort Libya attack, fearing casualties

Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:25pm GMT

OTTAWA, March 22 (Reuters) - Canadian military aircraft joined in a mission against ground targets in Libya on Tuesday, but did not drop their bombs amid concern there might be civilian casualties, military officials said.

Officials said two CF18 aircraft were assigned to attack a unspecified Libya airfield along with other aircraft from the U.S.-led coalition.

"Upon arrival on the scene in the target area, the air crew became aware of a risk (of collateral damage) they deemed as too high," Major General Tom Lawson, Canada's Assistant Chief of the Air Staff told reporters.

The Canadian jets returned safely to base.

Canada has sent six CF18 fighter jets to the operation and a frigate. It also has refueling aircraft in the region.

It was the second mission for Canadian planes in the campaign to enforce a no-fly zone over Libya to halt attacks on rebels and civilians and open the way for humanitarian help. It was the first time they had been assigned to attack a target.

Defense Minister Peter MacKay said that while the United States is still coordinating air operations, NATO was discussing if and how it should take over the mission.

"There is a further discussion if there will be an evolution of command and control of the entire mission. So no decision have been taken thus far," MacKay told a briefing. (Reporting Allan Dowd, Editing by David


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 10:07 PM

152 Tomohawks launched
food and fuel for 6 ships and crew
1 crashed fighter
misc.


total bill so far; 800 million before the misc.

Number of lives saved
priceless


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: number 6
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 10:35 PM

Libya attacks spark fight over cost

excerpts woth noting from the aboce link

"Rep. Dennis Kucinich, an Ohio Democrat, said Tuesday that he would try to block federal dollars from going to military operations in Libya.

"We have already spent trillions of dollars on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, both of which descended into unwinnable quagmires," Kucinich said in a statement. "Now, the president is plunging the United States into yet another war we cannot afford."

"President Obama has stressed since the start of the operation that the intervention in Libya would be brief. "Let me emphasize that we anticipate this transition to take place in a matter of days and not a matter of weeks," he said Monday."


biLL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 10:42 PM

I think Obama is unifying our country's polarization.....Now both sides can't stand him!

GfS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 11:21 PM

"..immediately replaced by his son Saif"

You cannot assume that Libyans would consider the son the embodiment of Libya the way Gadhafi is now seen by many Libyans.   A much better analogy would be the end of the 3rd Reich.   Removing Gadhafi will cause his state to collapse--because of the way he has constructed it--as Hitler did in Germany.

A $10 million price on Gadhafi's head would test the loyalty of his mercenaries rather severely. And is likely to save the West (and the insurgents) a lot of grief (and money).

If you think Saif is held in the same esteem, let's have some evidence.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: The HUMAN SHIELDS have just begun
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 11:49 PM

The human shields are coming the human shields are coming

But before we get into that, the 1st order of business is changing the name of the mission 'Odessey Dawn'. It seems Carnival Cruise LInes has a ship by that name and is threatening a lawsuit.
How about Illiad Dusk ?!

I tuned into to CNN today and saw a reporter in Libya steaming mad and yelling aboutsomeone being just plain nuts and that he expected goverments to lie to him but not war time journalists. He was royally PO'ed

After making sure I wasn't watching FOX I listened more carefully.
He said the whole lie is hypocritical and that he is angry that the entire story about human shields is "just plain nuts!"
It turns out that the FOX reporter in Libya, who incidently never leaves the hotel, reported on FOX news that CNN,NBC and CBS reporters were taken as human shields by Goverment forces and that it is not clear if some had volunteered to be a human shield for Muamer Qadafy. "I am shocked and disappointed that the FOX reporter would say such a thing when the only time he is even seen by fellow journalists is at breakfast. Gary Thagen should know that reporters take the goverment tour just to make sure that they can correct any misleading editing the goverment may try. The charge of human shields is ridiculous on its face yet they are sticking to that absurd story.


Jeez Louise, I am proud of this guy. It seems he has never watched FOX news in his life or he would have been desensitized to their reporting style by now.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 01:12 AM

"If you think Saif is held in the same esteem, let's have some evidence."

Oh, yes! Let's. By all means! Okay...so, what we have to do is this: Start a big fundraising drive on Mudcat which will raise funds sufficient to send Teribus to Libya for a few weeks so that he can search out the evidence firsthand, compelling and undeniable evidence, well-documented and notarized...evidence sufficent to convince Ron Davies that Teribus might have some real basis for imagining that Saif could successfully take over in Gadhafi's place if Gadhafi were gone.

Then Ron will be satisfied. He will have the "evidence".

I think it's worth doing. What do the rest of you think? Should we get Max to announce such a fundraising drive? Personally, I love the idea of sending Teribus to Libya for an extended period to find evidence that will meet Ron Davies' requirements, and I am confident that he would do a fine job at it.

Okay, I'm gonna start this thing off. I will contribute 25 cents toward this worthy objective of Teribus securing corroborative evidence in Libya to back up what he says in order to make Ron happy.

Anyone else? ;-D


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 01:25 AM

Sorry you don't like evidence, LH.    Thinking people tend to prefer it to a blanket statement with no support.    Thought you might be interested. But perhaps not.

Look, Hitler was held by many Germans for many years in high esteem--and fear. At the end, it was just fear.   And there was no future for his state.   Exactly the same thing is happening to Gadhafi.   

And the process would be expedited by a $10 million price on his head.

It would be a cheap investment for the West. Either somebody would carry out the mission--or Gadhafi's paranoia would increase--and steadily alienate more Libyans-until his removal. Probably soon.

It's always good to encourage paranoia in your opponents--(as long as they are not nuclear-armed. )

Tends to impair their judgment.




Meanwhile, the West should provide intelligence, weapons, and training to the insurgents.

And no ground troops.

As all sides agree.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 06:13 AM

Ah, the ghost of that criminal Ronnie Raygun refuses to lie down...

Why don't we just send a bloody posse?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 06:18 AM

An excellent "rent a mob" in Tripoli - all nutters!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:07 AM

"A $10 million price on Gadhafi's head

And Gaddafi could put a similar price tag on the heads of Obama, Cameron and Sarkozy.

There's a reason our leaders fight shy of that kind of thing...

..........................

Libya: Six injured as US team botches rescue of downed airmen : US forces sent into Libya to rescue two downed American airmen botched the mission by shooting and wounding friendly villagers who had come to help, witnesses have said.

Tricky, given that the whole official reason for this war is to protect civilians. Still, they were Arabs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:09 AM

"   send a bloody posse... ".

So sorry you're squeamish about the civil rights of Mr. Gadhafi.    Interestingly, he doesn't
himself seem to be squeamish about the issue.    In fact he's had no hesitation in putting a price on the head of the provisional government's leader. Turnabout is fair play.   Perhaps you've heard of this expression.   Or perhaps not.

And he keeps talking about looking forward to being a martyr.   The least we can do is oblige him---and by doing so,, keep lots more people alive.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:14 AM

" ...   similar price tag..."    That's why Secret Service-type groups exist.

Leaders know it goes with the territory.

Perhaps you're not interested in the job of leadership.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:18 AM

*Sigh* the lynch mob rules...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 08:47 AM

Steve, you are a smart guy--please read NO facetiousness into that observation. What would you rather have seen happen? The Man with a Thousand Spellings was killing many of his own people just as he has killed many foreign nationals through his association with terrorist groups. This time he's on the receiving end of some bad shit. So, again, how would you have handled it if you'd had your druthers?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 09:37 AM

I'd sooner a situation in which, when a war starts, the efforts of both sides were spent on trying to kill the leaders on the other side, rather than ordinary citizens or soldiers. But I don't think the leaders on either side see it quite like that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 10:17 AM

A snippet from 'The Great French Duel'

"The next thing in order was the choice of weapons. My principal said he was not feeling well, and would leave that and the other details of the proposed meeting to me. Therefore I wrote the following note and carried it to M. Fourtou's friend:

Sir: M. Gambetta accepts M. Fourtou's challenge, and authorizes me to propose Plessis-Piquet as the place of meeting; tomorrow morning at daybreak as the time; and axes as the weapons.
I am, sir, with great respect,

Mark Twain."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 11:11 AM

Gadaffi provided to his people, free education, free health service and cheap housing.
As a leader, he was far ahead of any in North Africa.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: number 6
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 11:26 AM

That is correct ake ... that explains why there are many diehard supporters now fighting for his side.

To bad Gadaffi was over taken by illusions of grandeur and evil, (very evil) madness.

biLL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: number 6
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 11:40 AM

An interesting interview with Dennis Kucinich .... ok, ok it's a FOX production and the guy is a loudmouth, but regardless listen to Dennis, he has some interesting concerns to say.

Dennis speaks out

biLL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 12:11 PM

They just needed the SAS to go in, that was all...

If they'd been there last night, when The Crazy One was spouting off madly, just a short clean shot, BANG!

"Oops, we seem to have lost The President!"

Then the people would take over..and the supporters would disappear because all the money he's been giving them would have stopped...

This way, The Mighty Jihad may well come riding across many deserts on his Camel...and then, Allah Help Us All...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 12:13 PM

Acutally, maybe we should all start learning to shout "AHUA!" at the tops of our voices..


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 12:28 PM

Go to Libya? Hell no problem.

Ron wants evidence? Yet offers none to support his own view of what would happen if Muammar Gaddafi shuffled off his mortal coil.

Is the Libyan State even remotely like Nazi Germany? - No it is not, the Nazi Party was essentially a political party. The Libya of Colonel Muammar Gaddafi is "tribal", basically the Arab-Berber tribes (three off) and the Touaregs of the west up against the umpteen Arab-Berber tribes and Touben of the East and the South.

Now let me recall what happened in Syria when old man Assad died? Oh yes his son Young Assad stepped right into his shoes and that was a society that was both tribal and modelled on Hitler's Nazi Party, as was the Ba'athist regime of Saddam Hussein whose sons were both groomed to take over from their father.

Now let us have another look at Libya, who has been acting as spokesman? The Prime Minister?? Nope. Any other "Government" Minister apart from the Foreign Minister who did the comedy act ceasefire declaration - That was immediately violated?? Nope. What about Gaddafi's eldest son, Saif al-Islam Muammar Al-Gaddafi, oh yes we have seen him broadcasting messages to the people of Libya and to the rest of the world. Meanwhile what is his other son doing? He is leading armoured units of the Gaddafi forces so he is too busy to talk to television reporters.

Naw Ron, LH, Max no need to send me to Libya all the indications are there as plain as a pike-staff who would take over should anything happen to Muammar Gaddafi.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 12:51 PM

Why is the gadaffi renta mob always jumping up and down? Could it be that they have taken medicine and forgotten to shake the bottle???


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: pdq
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 01:55 PM

The sustained attacks by the US military on the sovereign nation of Libya constitute a declaration of war.

The United States is now at war with three Muslim-dominated countries at the same time. That is a big mistake no matter how much we dislike Khaddafi.

George Bush went before Congress and got full legal authorization to evict Iraqi forces from Kuwait in 1991.

George W. Bush got full Congressional approval to oust the Taliban and attack al-Queda, headquartered in Afghanistan, back in 2001.

GWB again got full legal approval for Phase III of the Gulf War, the ouster of Saddam Hussein's government.

In contrast, Bill Clinton had our military attempt to bomb Serbia back to the Stone Age with no approval, as required by the United States Constitution.

Obama has started a war, also without any attempt to get Congressional approval.

In fact, most members of Congress knew nothing about it. Obama seems to have ordered the attacks from a tent while visiting Brasil.

Dennis Kucinich is quite correct on this one. Obama's actions here are unconstitutional.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 03:39 PM

The assumption that most Libyans want rid of Gaddafi is just that, an assumption. It may be a correct assumption, but nobody in public life or the media appear to have any interest in examining or testing it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 04:27 PM

"The sustained attacks by the US military on the sovereign nation of Libya constitute a declaration of war."

Um, not really, it is the implementation of UN Security Council resolution 1973.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 04:27 PM

Someone, I cannot recollect who said that Gaddafi retains the support of the majority of his people.

Well if was left to Gaddafi that sentence would definitely be true as by the time he had finished the "opposition" and their families, second cousins and their pet tortoises would all be dead, most certainly leaving the majority support claimed.

This conflict has got nothing whatsoever to do with "democracy" the people of Libya want an end to a tribal kleptocracy that has been running the country for the last 40 years. What may well happen is that Libya will fragment and split in the three former "states" - Tripolitania (North-West); Cyrenaica (East); Fezzan (South-West). If that happened each would be independently wealthy as the oil & gas fields seem fairly evenly distributed with:

- Tripolitania having both onshore and offshore fields

- Fezzan obviously only onshore but it would have to export it's product through the two existing pipeline systems that run to the coast through Tripolitania

- Cyrenaica onshore fields, but with its own export facilities

The Libyan population consist of members of the following tribes:

Berbers (north-western Tripolitania)
Touaregs (south-western Fezzan)
Tebou (South Cyrenaica)
Arabs & Arab-Berbers (western and eastern across Tripolitania and Cyrenaica)

The latter group consists of the following tribes:
Siann (Tripolitania)
El Magarha (Tripolitania)
El Hasauna (Fezzan)


The above Arab-Berber tribes could be viewed as being in Gaddafi's camp.

Mugharbah (Cyrenaica)
Zuwayah (Cyrenaica)
Awaqir (Cyrenaica)
Abid (Cyrenaica)
Fawakhir (Cyrenaica)
Barasa (Cyrenaica)
Arafah (Cyrenaica)
Darsa (Cyrenaica)
Abaydat (Cyrenaica)
Majabrah (Cyrenaica)
Awajilah (Cyrenaica)
Minifah (Cyrenaica)


The above mentioned "eastern" Arab-Berber tribes mainly constitute the revolt.

The whole thing is further complicated by the aforementioned tribes being split even further into a collective number of some 140 "clans" with all ot those tribes


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 04:41 PM

Quite agree bobad, the United States of America is currently at war with no-one - FACT

Iraq:
US Forces present in the country at the specific request and agreement of the Iraqi Government

1. US forces withdrawn from the streets of Iraqi towns and cities 29th June, 2009.

2. US troops ended combat missions in Iraq on 31st August, 2010

3. US troops will all have left Iraq by 31st December 2011.

Afghanistan:
US & ISAF troops operating in Afghanistan under a United Nations Mandate and at the specific request of the Government of Afghanistan

1. October 2006 US-OEF Forces in Afghanistan reassigned from direct CENCOM command to ISAF Command

2. July 2011, first five Provinces to be handed over to ANSF troops who will assume sole responsibility for security.

3. December 2014 all 34 Afghan Provinces will be under the direct control of ANSF, with remaining ISAF troops in training and support roles.

Libya:
US, UK, French, Canadian, Norwegian & Danish forces operating under UN Mandate requested by the Arab League and by the GCC.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 05:05 PM

Further to my post above, regarding Col Gadaffi's governance of Libya.

UN Human DevelopementReport 2010,rates Libya far higher than any other North African state, in terms of Health, Education and Income.

Libya...53rd. Tunisia...81st. Algeria...84th Egypt...101st. Morroco...114th.

"Moreover, Col Gadaffi probably does think that Al Quaeda is behind the rebellion in East Libya....as he has passed the names of hundreds of Islamic extremists to the CIA."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 05:07 PM

...the people of Libya want an end to a tribal kleptocracy that has been running the country for the last 40 years.

That may be true, or it may not be. Stating it doesn't prove it to be true.

It is clear that there are a lot of Libyans who want to get rid of him, but also that there are a lot of Libyans who support him. Which lot are more numerous is unclear.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 06:41 PM

Billions in gold, currency and in property stowed away in various accounts and banks spread all over the world in Gaddafi and his familiy's names atests to the "kleptocracy" part.

Here's a bit more information on Muammar Gaddafi for you Akenaton, you being such an admirer of the man and his form of "government":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muammar_Gaddafi

It makes interesting reading.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:03 PM

Come on T, you know me better than that!

I'm simply pointing out the contradictions in our policy/adventure.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:12 PM

Ake, I think you and Steve Shaw are right to do so. There are aspects of UN 1973 that make this old boy a bit nervous. It actually mentions 'boots on the ground'.

Frankly I'd like to see 'botg' in the Cote d'Ivoire, but is seems skin colour still matters in this world.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: pdq
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:26 PM

The United States Congress has not used the term "declaration of war" to authorize a military conflict since 1942. Still, we have had wars in Korea, Viet Nam, Kuwait, Iraq, Serbia, Afghanistan and probably other nations.

I believe that the 1949 Geneva Conventions are so restrictive that no country wants to make a formal declaration of war and subject themselves to the onerous restrictions.

Iraq, Afghanistan and now Lybia have the regular US military squaring-off against the military of a sovereign country, not a terrorist group.

If anyone really thinks that is not "war", they need to do a better job of explaining why.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:27 PM

Very interesting info about the tribal affiliations in Libya, Teribus. It's another case of an artificial country created, like Iraq, by a colonial power that drew some nice lines on a map, but without regard to the different tribal or cultural groups who would share that land under the colonial administration...and after it left them to themselves.

I note that Ron has not replied to any of this with any "evidence" of his own...probably because he has none. ;-) He is thus hoist on his own petard.

****

I don't agree that the USA is not at war in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Libya, because I don't particularly care about the arcane legal distinctions which politicians use to label one armed conflict or occupation as being "at war" and another one as something else. I think it's just lawyer's trickery, that gambit, and a war is a war, period, regardless of legal chicanery to the contrary, and anyone with half a grain of sense can see it's a war. But I don't expect we'll ever agree on that one, and who really gives a toss if we do, right? ;-) I know I don't. But it's something to talk about if one has the time and the inclination.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: pdq
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:41 PM

"lines on a map, but without regard to the different tribal or cultural groups who would share that land under the colonial administration..." ~ Birdfeathers

No, you keep trying to paint all Western attempts at peace as being imperialism. They are not.

The British were given the job of building a viable country called Iraq out of three disparate regions, one dominated by Kurds, one by Sunni Arabs and the third by Shiites.

The thankless job was awarded to the Brits by the League of Nations after the Ottoman Empire collapsed in WW I. That job eventually fell to the US, and things are going better than most expected.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 08:02 PM

I wasn't saying it was "imperialism", pdq, I was just saying it happened in various places during the colonial era, that's all. Whether one should call it imperialism or not is a whole different discussion.

If I'd been running the UK at the time, I might have done the same thing, after all. Who knows? But I'm saying that the boundaries drawn for many of those countries in Africa and the Middle East after WWI were probably drawn without full awareness of what the cultural aftereffects would be for the local people. To say this is not to be insulting "the West", it is simply to state what happened.

Larger powers always end up determining the future of various indigenous populations in weaker areas...for better or for worse. If we're going to argue about whether or not to call it "imperialism", it would be well to remember that there was a time not too long ago when every great power was proud to speak of its "empire". "Empire" was not a dirty word then, it was a badge of pride. When I was born in 1948, the British Empire still spoke proudly of itself and celebrated the fact that "the sun never sets on the British Empire".

Now, tell me....how can an empire NOT be imperial???? ;-) All empires practice imperialism, pdq, because to have an empire at all necessitates the practice of imperialism....and people used to be proud of themselves for doing it! Read some Rudyard Kipling, and you'll see that right away, although he was not blind to the aspirations of the subject races. He just honestly felt they were better off under British rule....and he may even have been partly right about that! After all, the British were good administrators, weren't they? And they kept the different ethnic groups under their rule from slaughtering each other. Look what happened when they finally left...not exactly a lovely scene, was it?

Yet, I believe it was inevitable.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: pdq
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 08:13 PM

I agree with you on most of what you said in the last few post. Certainly there is no reason to argue at any lenght.

I say Iraq, Afhganistan and now Lybia constitute "wars" and with two unfinished ones, having cost the US taxpayers $1.12 trillion dollars in the the last 9 1/2 years, should have kept us from starting a new one.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 08:17 PM

I agree. But think how happy the arms industry must be.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: number 6
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 10:27 PM

"Quite agree bobad, the United States of America is currently at war with no-one - FACT"

ok ... it's not a war ... even though the FACT is military bombs have been dropped from planes and 158 cruise missiles have been fired at an enemy ... is it politically correct to call them an enemy if it isn't a war?

.
.

no, it's not a war ... it's what they use to call a 'police action' .. ;-]

good grief

biLL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 11:02 PM

FDR went to Congress and got an official declaration of war on Japan after Pearl Harbour. He later got the same Congressional approval to go to war against Germany and Italy. And that was the last time an American administration went through the proper constitutional motions of going to war...which require certain governmental and legal formalities and the consent of Congress (which represents the people).

Presidents since FDR have found it much more convenient to have wars which are not declared....and that means that what they have really done is to act like kings who launch wars by decree, in effect, as a solitary commander-in-chief of the nation's armed forces. This may be convenient, but it is not constitutional...and it is the epitome of hypocrisy to claim that these bloody "police actions" are not wars. They are wars, with all the physical features that characterize a war.

The General Staff plans attacks and issues orders. Ships go to sea, aircraft take to the air, guns are fired, bombs are dropped, battles are fought on foreign land, and people die. That's a war. You can call it by any other name you want, you can say you were "asked to go in" by someone (and the Germans used to say that too...), but it's still a war, and the power to wage war is supposed to be given by Congress not by presidential will.

The reason the Constitution was set up that way was to prevent American presidents from becoming, like most European Kings, absolute rulers and dictators, because it is simply too dangerous to entrust the decision to go to war to one man. If you can't get it authorized by the elected Congress of the nation, it should not be allowed to go ahead at all.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 11:06 PM

"no, it's not a war ... it's what they use to call a 'police action'"


I recall a line from the TV show, MASH. I think it was Pierce who said, "If this is a police action, why didn't they send cops?"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: number 6
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 11:08 PM

999 ... I remember that line from MASH ... good one ... :-)

biLL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 11:10 PM

Hmmmm. Any reports from the front?

Benghazi does have the reputation of sending more volunteers to fight alongside the Taliban in Afghanistan than any other city in North Africa. One of their senior members Hakim Al Sady is part of the rebel governing council and would should assume that he would be deeply suspicious of the involvement of France, the UK, and the United States in the UN coalition but he might also be very grateful that they were able to chew up Gadhafi's armored column before it made mincemeat of Benghazi's rebellious residents.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 12:32 AM

What I've gathered from here and there:

Of the 22 towns/cities in north Libya, a few days back only three were held by the rebels. As of today, 10 were held by the rebels with three towns/cities being actively contested. People are expecting a humanitarian crisis as hospitals run short of supplies and people run short of food and water. NATO can't decide yet who's gonna take over command from the US. A naval blockade is being actively enforced.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 10:36 PM

"Ron has not replied".    So sorry i have a life outside Mudcat.   You might want to try it sometime, LH. (Yeah, I know you're kidding. Sure you are.)   But it sure is interesting that you seem to be on Mudcat all the time.   Must have a rather undemanding job--and no other demands on your time by others in the house.



The question is if I have time to address all the specious arguments on the thread.

The answer is:   just enough now for a few points.

"lynch mob". Right.   For a mass-murdering dictator.

Good thing Churchill did not have this attitude.    And it was in fact very much in evidence at the time. The SIS did not take kindly to the SOE, which Churchill established 16 July 1940.    The SOE field included "terrorist acts against traitors and German leaders." Killing Hitler p 195.



And it's certainly not necessary to announce the $10 million bounty for Gadhafi.   Just see to it that the word gets to Gadhafi's own mercenaries. That's the main goal.


That's it for now. Have fun. I know you will.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 10:49 PM

Ah yes.   And there are in fact striking similarities between Gadhafi and Hitler:   specifically the structure of governance and and attitude towards dissent.    Gadhafi doesn't need to push for Lebensraum, both because of the small population, but also because he can and does exert much pressure in the region through "soft power"---specifically oil money.

And of course as far as I know he doesn't base aggression on race theory.

But a mass-murdering dictator he is-- and a rich one. Even with $30 billion-plus frozen outside Libya, he still has at least $5 billion in gold in Libya. And now he has every incentive to try to acquire nuclear weapons.   We have to certainly make sure he never even has a shadow of a claim to the $30 billion.   Having him shuffle off this mortal coil early would solve the problem neatly.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 11:03 PM

Also, anybody who thinks a 38-year old LSE grad can smoothly slip into Gadhafi's many roles needs to read further.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 02:15 AM

"Frankly I'd like to see 'botg' in the Cote d'Ivoire, but is seems skin colour still matters in this world."

There are "botg" in the Ivory Coast - a UN Peacekeeping Force under French "command".

Not being very effective because they are severely constrained by UN rules relating to UN Peacekeeping Forces. Counter to popular misconceptions:

- UN Peacekeeping Forces do not "sort out situations"

- UN Peacekeeping Forces are limited as to what arms they can deploy, they have no tactical air cover, no artillery and no armour. In short they can just about defend themselves.

- UN Peacekeeping Forces do not in fact enforce a peace, they monitor it. The warring factions in any situation must have already stopped fighting before a UN Peacekeeping Force is deployed, i.e. there should already be a truce or ceasefire in place.

- Historically if that truce or ceasefire breaks down the UN Peacekeepers are withdrawn.

The US should stand aside from police actions if only to show its detractors what happens in bad situations where they do not intervene. Rest assured China and Russia will not intervene to save human life and protect civilians, they will wait for the dust to settle then go in and exploit the situation to their advantage. The French will intervene but will be extremely ineffective. When the USA and the UK act in concert things do happen, things do get done usually to the advantage of the people affected and in saying that I do include Iraq and Afghanistan. I believe that there are many people in countries such as Haiti, Somalia, Rwanda, Sudan (Darfur) and The Ivory Coast wish that the US and UK had got more involved.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 04:00 AM

OK..It is being reported, that we already have 'boots on the ground'.(Special Forces, 'painting the target').

Also, this action has little to do with Qaddafi, or his abuses on his people. These are the cover story, and excuse. It has more to do a power play to take down Israel and the western economic system. This action gives precedent to allow Israel to be invaded by the other middle eastern anti Israel countries, with the support of the U.N., including us, whether it would be justified, or not.

Whether you support that idea or not, is really up to you, though, as I poster previously, this is a huge mistake! Obama was ill advised, and America is in the process of selling out our relationship with Israel.

That's all, but at least you heard it here first(maybe), on the good ol' Mudcat Forum.

GfS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 04:48 AM

Mistake(typo) Third paragraph it should not be "poster" but 'posted'
Fix it, if you could, thank you.

GfS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 06:51 AM

When the USA and the UK act in concert things do happen, things do get done usually to the advantage of the people affected and in saying that I do include Iraq and Afghanistan.

I doubt whether the families of three quarters of a million dead Iraqi civilians would agree with you.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 08:53 AM

So now that Obama has handed over leadership to NATO for implementing UN resolution 1973 on schedule, the Republicans now accuse him of lack of leadership. I guess in their minds, GWB's unilateral action on Iraq still rings true.

Of course US forces will still be involved within NATO and continuing to provide important functions. But now other countries, including Arab countries, are more willing to join in the effort.

Not a bad result for what a week ago looked like another bloodbath.

And so far reports of "collateral damage" seem relatively modest, even if all the claims by Gadhaffi's spokespeople turn out to be true.

GfS-

The media evidently has not picked up on the latest conspiracy theory posted by GfS. Where did this one come from or did you think it up yourself? Could you restate it? I'm not sure if you are being serious or sarcastic. I do hate to encourage you but I am genuinely puzzled.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 09:00 AM

GfS .... you got it. I can not help but beleive the door is now open to to justify military action against Israel (right or wrong). The resentment against Israel is growing at a fast pace in the western world. The fashion now is to blame Israel for all the issues happening in the mideast (sadly to say).

For those who speak of genocide well, we have not seen anything yet. If the door is opened to legally sanction the military intervention against Israel all hell will break lose ... we are going to see acts of violence of man against man that we have not seen in decades. I just hope the western world has the logistics and economics to perform a massive airlift. I also hope the western world has the humanity to take in to their countries the lucky ones who get out.

Hopefully I'm wrong with my predictions, but unfortunaly I can't see any hope with all that is going on.

biLL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 09:32 AM

"I doubt whether the families of three quarters of a million dead Iraqi civilians would agree with you."

What three quarters of a million dead Iraqi civilians?

According to those responsible for clearing up the bodies and burying the dead in Iraq the number stands at somewhere around the 150,000 mark, most of those (between 67% and 75%) killed by fellow Iraqi's who were members of insurgent groups, sectarian militias or criminal gangs, a fair number were also killed by foreign jihadi "fighters" who came to Iraq to fight and kill the invading foreign infidels. Unfortunately for these "brave freedom fighters for Islam" they discovered very early on that the evil invading foreign infidels tended to fight back rather successfully, so those "brave freedom fighters for Islam" went back to what they do best, i.e. killing defenceless unarmed civilians, not caring a toss whether they were muslim or not.

Daily average death toll related to civilians in Iraq has been reduced by a factor of 87% when compared to the daily averages batted by Saddam Hussein in his 24 year reign.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 10:04 AM

"This action (UN action in Libya I presume) gives precedent to allow Israel to be invaded by the other middle eastern anti Israel countries, with the support of the U.N., including us, whether it would be justified, or not."

What complete and utter tosh. In what way does this set a precedent that would allow military action to be taken against Israel? On what grounds? Military action by whom? Care to run through the likely candidates?

Lebanon:
Highly unlikely, Lebanon is just gearing itself up for the next chapter in it's own bloody civil war. If Hezbollah in Lebanon attempted anything against Israel they would be destroyed, along with much of southern Lebanon.

Syria:
Bashar al-Assad and the Ba'athist Party in Syria have got other things on their minds at the moment. Besides the Syrian Army or Air Force have never been a match for the IDF and they are fully aware of that. In 1973 Damascus was completely open to capture and all of Syria knew it - No Syria is not going to invade Israel.

Jordan:
The only Jordan that might invade Israel might be the British Z-list celebrity with the silicone boobs. King Abdullah II certainly isn't going to throw over the Peace deal with Israel signed by his Father because of any concern for "The Palestinians" (Pssst Remember it was his father King Hussain of Jordan that threw the bastards out of Jordan in 1970 after Yasser Arafat tried to take over his Kingdom)

Egypt:
They have just undergone a revolution of their own that their Army is at present quietly sitting on and watching very carefully. No they will not throw away the peace they signed with Israel.

That leaves who else??

Turkey:
Naw, not a hope, they are not that stupid

Iran:
Nope far too cowardly to fight anyone directly, they conduct all their dirty work by proxy, they prefer to pay others to die on their behalf.

"The resentment against Israel is growing at a fast pace in the western world. The fashion now is to blame Israel for all the issues happening in the mideast."

Hell as like, it may however be the fashion amongst the illiterate, the ignorant, the impressionable, the gullible and the easily led.

"For those who speak of genocide well, we have not seen anything yet. If the door is opened to legally sanction the military intervention against Israel all hell will break lose ... we are going to see acts of violence of man against man that we have not seen in decades."

No-one in their right minds in the middle-east, or anywhere else, is going to even propose military action against Israel let alone sanction it. The USA has a bilateral defence pact with Israel that is inviolate, anyone proposing military action against Israel in the UN Security Council will come up against a US Veto.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 10:21 AM

Interesting that a Libyan owned oil company is demanding the return of British oil workers to start up it's oilfields - if they don't go, their contracts will be terminated. The person I spoke to will be telling them to get stuffed!!!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 11:16 AM

"The resentment against Israel is growing at a fast pace in the western world. The fashion now is to blame Israel for all the issues happening in the mideast."

Hell as like, it may however be the fashion amongst the illiterate, the ignorant, the impressionable, the gullible and the easily led.


Well, it's hard to see how Israel could take the rap for recent events in Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, etc., but it's impossible to deny that the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is at the root of nearly all the unrest in the region before that. In turn, by far the biggest factor helping to perpetuate that conflict is the unconditional bankrolling of Israel's military by the US. Without that, we would not have Hezbollah or Hamas. You condemn Iran (a country that has never invaded another) for being cowardly in getting others to do its dirty work, whilst there's not a word from you about the egregious manner in which the US is doing exactly that by providing for Israel's massive army, and on a scale many times greater. I'm not one of those who would wish Israel to be wiped off the map, neither do I think that the west shouldn't have friendly relations with Israel. But I do think that military aid should be conditional on responsible and legal military behaviour, and I think there should be far less of that aid. If you're giving enough aid to enable a country to attack its neighbours willy-nilly and illegally occupy or besiege Palestinian land, not simply give it the wherewithal to defend itself, you are overdoing it in my book. I don't think for one second that there are significant threats looming on Israel's borders because of recent events. But the biggest threat to Israel is going to come from Israel itself, and that may well happen in the not too distant future when they attack Iran.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 12:06 PM

"If you're giving enough aid to enable a country to attack its neighbours willy-nilly and illegally occupy or besiege Palestinian land, not simply give it the wherewithal to defend itself, you are overdoing it in my book."

Which countries, what neighbours has Israel attacked "willy-nilly"?

1948: Israel itself was attacked inside the borders of the Territory that was then known as Palestine. The Jews of Palestine had accepted the UN's Plan proposed in 1947 and the Arabs of Palestine had rejected it, so when Israel declared itself an independent state the Arabs of Palestine assisted by the Arabs of Jordan, Syria and Egypt invaded the mandated Palestine Territory.

- The Israeli's fought to protect their borders,
- The Jordanians grabbed the West Bank and East Jerusalem and occupied them until 1967
- The Egyptians grabbed the Gaza Strip and occupied them until 1967

How is your argument about taking land from others by force of arms holding up?

1949 - 1956: Raids and attacks on Israel from Syria, Jordan and Egypt

1956: Nasser nationalises the Suez canal closing it to Israeli shipping. Under the terms of the UN Charter it is an Act of War to close or restrict an international water-way, which the Suez canal most definitely is. The UK and france retake the canal and Israel clears the Egyptians from Sinai. UN place a Peacekeeping Force in Sinai to prevent further Fedayeen attacks on Israel from Egypt.

1957 - 1967: Attacks on Israel continue and the rhetoric is ramped up several notches. Egypt orders the UN Peacekeeping Force out of Sinai and the Arab world parks five armies on the borders of Israel vowing to drive the Jews into the sea. Egypt closes the Suez Canal and the Gulf of Aqaba to Israeli shipping.

1967: The Six Day War which Israel wins convincingly. Jordanians are booted out of the land they themselves illegally took and held by force in 1948 and the Egyptians are once again cleared out of Gaza and the Sinai. The Syrians lose the Golan Heights from where they had been shelling Israel for years. Two times now Israel and her Arab neighbours had signed UN brokered cease-fire agreements and on neither occasion had the Arabs lived up to their end of the bargain, so this time there was no automatic return to the ante-bellum borders, this time Israel was clear - Land For Formal Peace Treaties.

1973: The Yom Kippur War where Egypt and Syria carry-out an unprovoked attack on Israel to recapture land they had lost. Again Israel defeats her attackers convincingly.

1979: Egypt/Israeli Peace Treaty

1986: Israel having intervened in the Lebanese Civil War to stop PLO attacks on Northern Israel establishes a "buffer zone" in southern Lebanon, which it voluntarily withdraws from in 2000

1987: Palestinian Arabs declare the First Intifada

1994: Jordan/Israeli Peace Treaty

2000: Camp David Peace Proposals rejected by Arafat and the Second Intifada is declared by Arafat.

2005: Israel unilaterally withdraws from the Gaza Strip

2006: Attacks on Israel from South Lebanon and from the Gaza Strip

2008: Turkey acts a mediator in secret peace talks between Syria and israel

2008: Israel attacks Gaza (Between 2001 and 2008 8,600 rockets had been fired indiscriminately at Israel civilian centres of population).

There is no such country as "Palestine" - there never was. "Palestine" is a construct of Yasser Arafat, the greatest gangster and opportunist that the Arabs of palestine have ever had to suffer under (and by Christ his uncle took some beating, but good ol' Yasser managed it).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 12:24 PM

Please, if we're going bring up Israel .... let's don't bring up the history of Israel and it's past conflicts. I should have kept my mouth shut .... anyway, if we are going to brigng up Israel let's stay focused on the current concerns and how the events going on in the Arab countries, and world opinion will put Israel in a precarious position.

biLL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 12:32 PM

Steve: "You condemn Iran (a country that has never invaded another) for being cowardly in getting others to do its dirty work, whilst there's not a word from you about the egregious manner in which the US is doing exactly that by providing for Israel's massive army, and on a scale many times greater."

Steve, I'm glad to see a more serious post from you...that being said, Iran and the Iraqi war, in which killed over a million people, would seem to contradict some of you post. This was mostly a 'religious based conflict, (at least that's what was reported), but Iran did invade Iraq. Out of it, the U.S. supported Iraq, and it was not until the hostage taking in Iran, that we supplied Iraq, with arms (missiles), to secure their release. The cover story at that time was the swearing in of Ronald Reagan. If anyone can remember, that during the swearing in, the crawler beneath the video coverage, ran the hostage release story..but it had NOTHING to do with him being sworn in, but an arms deal in which Iraq threatened to, in effect, blackmail the U.S. based on their piecing together a lot of documents, both shredded, and not, that they had, when they took over the embassy. There are more details to in, but this should suffice to say, what took place, in an overview. By the way, the present leader of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, was one of the organizers, and participants of the hostage takers...and just like the U.S. does support military efforts, to fight its proxy wars behind the scenes.
But, really Steve, it was good to see you post a 'less than sarcastic' post.

GfS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 01:11 PM

Charley Noble: The media evidently has not picked up on the latest conspiracy theory posted by GfS. Where did this one come from or did you think it up yourself? Could you restate it? I'm not sure if you are being serious or sarcastic. I do hate to encourage you but I am genuinely puzzled."

Actually I got it off the media...and when I get more time, when I get back from town, tonight, I'll give you more info about it, unless someone else picks up on it, and fills you in.
I know, I was blown away, when I heard the 'ins and outs' of the details!..but when I heard it, it made complete sense..you know, like those things you hear, that says, "Yeah, that's it!"
Gotta go...last post I can do now...I'm late!

Regards,

GfS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 01:39 PM

I got into a slagging match with Steve a while back. We then traded a few messages and guess what? He's really a nice guy. Although I disagree with him about how we're handling Libya, I remembered that I once supported the invasion of Iraq based on the necessity for it as promulgated by those bastards in the White House and their friends in the media. I may have done so again regarding Libya, but maybe not.

BM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 02:14 PM

Some nice misrepresentations there, Teribus. To take but one example, no mention of the atrocities committed in southern Lebanon in 2006 such as leaving tens of thousands of (American) cluster bomblets all over the countryside to blow children's legs off for years to come. You could also have referred to the illegal use of white phosphorus in Gaza and the deliberate targeting of civilians, not to speak of the brutal and pointless siege of Gaza. However, as has been said, 'tain't an Israel thread. My point was that we should not be supplying arms to countries who use them irresponsibly. And that the Palestinian/Israeli conflict was, until recent months, at the root of all middle east conflict for many decades.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 02:33 PM

In which case then Mr.Shaw answer my question:

"What countries has Israel attacked willy-nilly?"

Lebanon provocation entering od Israel by Hezbollah to kidnap two Israel soldiers followed by rocket attacks.

Israeli attacks on Gaza? 8,600 rocket attacks in the course of 8 years?? How would you respond?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 02:41 PM

I fail to see what the Israelis have to do with this thread--no offense to anyone. The pro-con Israeli positions are clear for damned near everyone who's ever posted on a thread to do with the mid-East.

Hell, I could go back to older threads and c and p what most posters think--including myself--and I'd bet a buffalo head nickel that you'd not recognize the difference from an old post and one from today. imo.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 02:59 PM

Agreed. We'll let the fact that Teribus wears a blinker over one eye rest for now. ;-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 03:15 PM

Well, Steve, considering our stormy start, I have come to see you as very reasonable--not as reasonable as me of course, but close. Teribus and I go way back, and he is one tough sonuvagun, and the kind of guy I hope to have in my corner when the s##t hits the fan. I don't know either of you in real life, but I'd bet another buffalo head nickel that you two would get along. imo, and let's don't you guys mess up my hopes and wishes.   ;-)

EUREKA, I just got it. The semicolon then dash then end parenthesis actually constitute a wink. (Please don't ask what I'm doing posting from the floor on my side.) :)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 03:30 PM

Iran did invade Iraq.

Check your facts.

The war was initiated by Iraq launching an air and land invasion of Iraq, without any warning, ultimatum or declaration of war. After this attack was repulsed Iranian forces counterattacked and occupied Iraqi territory until the end of the war (which ended soon after the US shot down a civilian Iranian airliner, which was taken by the Iranians as an indication that the USA was at the point of moving in in support of Saddam Hussein's Iraqi regime). After the war Iran withdrew to the prewar boundaries.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 06:06 PM

Still no-one has stated how or why what is currently happening in Libya creates a precedent that would allow attacks on Israel - That 999 is where Israel comes into the thread.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: pdq
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 07:39 PM

I have never heard anyone seriously suggest that the US shot down the Iranian Air Bus as a warning to the Iranians.

That is outrageous and should be taken back pronto.

The Air Bus was flying toward a US military vessel with a full crew, and the captain was obligated to protect his men.

The Iranian aircraft was spotted on radar, not by sight. It was warned repetedly to turn away, but it's radios were tuned to civilian bands, not military radio frequencies and did not respond. The US captain never recovered completely from the shock of what happened. To say this act was intentional is an outrage.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 07:53 PM

Hmmmmm???

Unless I am missing something everything that is happening in Northern Africa and the Middle East has nothing to to with Isreal...

...but everything to do with way too much income inequality and lack of opportunities for a young, educated generation...

You know, kinda more like the US... In come inequality and lack of opportunity...

Israel get a pass on this tho...

... it might provide an excellent opportunity for some progress on Isreal's Palestinian situation if the hard-liners can look at what is happening and see for themselves that everyone would be better off if they resolved their differences... I mean, the Palestinian situation is not unlike other countries in the area with a major lack of opportunity for its people... That's what this is all about after all... It's not about dictators... It's about one's ability to use his or her intellect and education to make a danged living... Nothing less and nothing more...

The first thing all these dictators do is offer $$$... Screw $$$... Offer jobs!!!

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: number 6
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 08:04 PM

"Still no-one has stated how or why what is currently happening in Libya creates a precedent that would allow attacks on Israel"

The Gadhafi Precedent Israeli Unity Coalition


The Gadhafi precedent Washington Times


This is why I brought Israel inot this thread. It concerns me.

biLL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: number 6
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 08:14 PM

btw .... these 2 links are the same editorial by Frank J. Gaffney Jr. .... but from 2 different sources ... I don't think it is some wacky conspiracy theory, but provides some valid food for thought.

biLL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 10:07 PM

Sigh, another thread totally derailed.

Now I know that GfS is in an orbit all her own but I've totally missed out on why Israel is the next state to be abandoned in the US plan to dominate the world. And it's all supposed to make sense.

The Obama Administration has ben mildly critical of some recent actions taken by Israel, as well as actions taking by some factions of the Palestinians. But I'm not getting a hint that the US would dare to abandon our loyal ally Israel in favor of any of its neighbors, even if they had a BIG pool of oil. Is this Haliburton's master plan?

Let's get back to keeping score of what's going on and about in Libya. Is it true that 90% of the Rebel leadership is on the payroll of Osama Ben-Laden? Actually I just made that up but feel free to respond ardently.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: number 6
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 10:40 PM

I'm not trying to hijack this thread and I'm certainly not trying to revive the old pro-con Israel position argument (far from it) ... what I'm trying to get across is the 'Gadhafi precedent' which the UN sanctioned the no fly zone plus used on Libya could be used against Israel ... which in itself could be used as an argument against this whole bombing thing which is the title of the thread. I'm not stating that the U.S. wants to dominate the mideast and I'm not stating the Israelis's deserve to get their ass whipped like Gadhafi. I'm just stating some facts that I feel can make the mideast even more unstable than it already is as a result of the 'Bombing of Tripoli has begun'

I also am aware that Frank J. Gaffney Jr is somewhat of a right wing advocate which I certainly do not agree with, but regardless what he has to say concerning the 'Gadhafi precedent' pretty well sums up some of my concerns.

and as I stated before only time will tell, and I do hope for the best for all the people of the mid-east and n. Africa, Muslims and Jews alike.

and with that being said for all it's worth I further add my adieu to this thread.

biLL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 04:32 AM

Gaffney is way of mark in describing his scenario

1: There is no state of palestine, there never has been.

2: For UN to pay any attention to anything any Palestinian delegation might say that Palestinian delegation would have to state very clearly and very forcefully that it recognises Israel's borders, sovereignty and right to exist free from any threat of attack. It should be remembered that the UN was the first body to recognise the state of Israel followed by the Governments of the USA and the USSR. Hamas will never accept that and that is why the international community refuse to recognise Hamas as the Government of anybody.

3: For Gaffney's scenario to unfold the United States of America has got to renege on it's long standing bi-lateral defence treaty with Israel, which up until the liberation of Iraq was the only functioning democracy in the region - The United States of America will not do that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 04:52 AM

As far as applying the Gaddafi Precedent goes, there would be a stronger case for action against Hamas in Gaza than against Israel.

The Arab League demanding military action?? They might demand it all they want, they, and the world and its dog, know they won't do anything about it - 1948; 1956; 1967; 1973; 2006; 2008 - They know if they act against Israel they will be defeated, hopefully this time the Israeli's will finish the job once and for all, both sides in this mess have had over 60 years to reach an agreement and every time the Arabs have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory in order to continue "their struggle".

"After this attack was repulsed Iranian forces counterattacked and occupied Iraqi territory until the end of the war (which ended soon after the US shot down a civilian Iranian airliner, which was taken by the Iranians as an indication that the USA was at the point of moving in in support of Saddam Hussein's Iraqi regime)."

Utter bullshit Kevin. The Aegis weapons control system on the USS Vincennes is extremely fast and cannot be overidden once it perceives a threat. The British DLG HMS Hampshire nearly shot down a civilian cargo 707 in the Malacca Straits during the Indonesian Confrontation under similar circumstances, but the Commanding Officer (who in those days was the ONLY person who could give the order to "engage") took a very courageous decision to wait until one of two things happened:

1: The aircraft turned away sharply and the radar echo split in two with one continuing on towards the ship indicating that the aircraft had launched one or more stand-off weapons (Kelt missiles) - in this case Hampshires weapons systems shoot down the missiles

2: The Rating manning the MRS-3 Director gets a visual on the aircraft and positively identifies it.

What happened was the latter. In accordance with the "Rules of Engagement" in force at the time the Captain of HMS Hampshire would have been fully justified in taking on that aircraft and shooting it down - just as the Captain of the USS Vincennes was.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 01:42 PM

Well, evidently we can begin posting Rebel victories again:

From Al Jazeera:

"Libyan rebels are advancing westwards after recapturing the strategic eastern town of Ajdabiya from government controls with the help of coalition airstrikes.

Reports on Saturday afternoon suggested rebels had already pressed onto the oil-port town of Brega, 80 kilometres to the west.

'We are in the centre of Brega,' rebel fighter Abdelsalam al-Maadani told the AFP news agency by telephone."

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 03:57 PM

Why are we not protecting the "civilians" of Brega and Tripoli from the rebels?
Do they only carry "pop" guns?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 05:56 PM

2: For UN to pay any attention to anything any Palestinian delegation might say that Palestinian delegation would have to state very clearly and very forcefully that it recognises Israel's borders, sovereignty and right to exist free from any threat of attack. It should be remembered that the UN was the first body to recognise the state of Israel followed by the Governments of the USA and the USSR. Hamas will never accept that and that is why the international community refuse to recognise Hamas as the Government of anybody.

Well gosh, it's clear whose side you're on. You want the UN to pay attention to the Palestinians only when the latter promise to recognise Israel's borders. That's a laugh, innit, considering that Israel has been in breach of UN resolutions regarding borders for almost half a century. In addition, you want Israel, uniquely on this planet, to be free from any threat of attack. You fail to spell out what Israel itself might have to do to expedite this, as though it would just be a matter of everyone else in the region just lying down and letting Israel get on with whatever they want to get on with. I'll remind you that, inconveniently for you and your fellow-traveller Israel apologists, Hamas was elected in free and fair elections, and I would also remind you that if you ever want to get people to change you have to sit down with them and negotiate, not demonise them in the way you have done in this post. Even Ian Paisley will tell you that. Since when has it been OK to collectively punish a million and a half people, as in Gaza, because they voted the way you didn't want them to? You know damn well that there has to be no such thing as "never" in politics, and that, one fine day, someone will sit down with Hamas and negotiate, and that Hamas will find accommodation with Israel. There are factions within Hamas who already acknowledge that that must happen one day. Anyone, like you, who persists in confusing silly megaphone rhetoric with hard reality has simply not learned the lessons of history. Your timeline account of the recent history of this conflict, apart form being exceptionally partial in its detail as I've already indicated, also completely omits any mention of the perfectly justified grievances of the Palestinians before and during the birth of Israel. I could also add that you neglect to mention the utterly disproportionate responses of Israel to attacks (which I condemn, actually, believe it or not). In ten years, around a dozen Israelis have been killed by Hamas rockets, whilst at the same time around twenty children per year are killed either by Israeli snipers or, worse, remote-controlled firearms, for the sin of playing within 300 metres of the Gaza border. Cast Lead killed 1300 Gazan civilians, including 300 children. In the same operation, Israeli casualties numbered just thirteen soldiers. Hundreds of Palestinians are currently incarcerated in Israeli jails without charge and without knowing why they are there. Almost 300 Palestinian children are in custody in Israel. The building of illegal settlements continues apace. A Palestinian approaching an Israeli roadblock will typically wait for two days to get through (for Israeli Jews it's instantaneous, of course). Whole families have been divided, and farmland stolen, by the construction of that apartheid wall. Israeli attacks on Gaza destroyed schools, hospitals, power stations and water works, and now building materials are not allowed in to allow reconstruction.

I think that you, and other apologists for Israel's atrocities, had better address each and every one of these points, one by one, before coming out with further "justifications" predicated mainly on apparent serious memory lapses. If you have any interest at all in being fair, that is. I probably shouldn't be holding my breath, should I.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 06:53 PM

The Israeli/Palestinian land split--tough shit. The Israelis (read Jews) bought the land. When they offered to teach the Palestinians how to use the land to produce (the Sinai), the offer was refused. The people who suffer on behalf of Palestinians are never there. They post their diatribe here.

I face death, as do we all, and had I a choice I would meet my maker at places like Little Big Horn (I'da been Sioux), Thermopylae, Dieppe, Juno Beach, Andersonville, Dien Bien Phu, hoping I could die with people of courage. You folks with lotsa cash need to hang onto it. Those of us with little or none--well, we just don't see it the same way you do.

I respect your right to think of us as shit, but I will respect my right to say you are an ass. My grandfather fought your fucking war, dug your coal, helped feed your children--in fact, helped feed you. Fuck your attitude and your disdain. On the worst day of his life he was better than you.

My real name is Bruce Murdoch. I live in Ormstown, Quebec. If you ever wish to talk in person, I'm easy to find. Until then, piss off.

Best personal regards,

BM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 07:15 PM

Like I said, all that is going on offers both the Palestinians and the Israelis the "political cover" to make progress toward the safety of both...

This has gone on long enough for both sides...

Time to get on toward a peaceful and mutually respectful resolution...

Gotta strike while the iron is hot and it may not be this hot ever again...

Just MO...

B~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 07:42 PM

Perhaps Bruce, in a moment of greater clarity, will try to focus and articulate his feelings a little more accurately than that. Frankly, I didn't understand a bloody word of it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 08:17 PM

Look, gang, just take your continuing "discussion" of Israel/Palestine to another thread. I might even contribute if folks are not too abusive.

Sure, a lot of issues in the Middle East are connected but this thread was an attempt to focus on what was happening in Libya. Please respect that.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 08:28 PM

C'mon, Charley, thread drift is a time-honoured and honourable pursuit. Nearly every serious thread I ever post gets hijacked. Big deal. You can hardly expect intemperate rants of the sort Teribus posted to go unchallenged.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 10:30 PM

That rant wasn't addressed to you, Steve. It was addressed to people who think Israel and its people have no right to be. I doubt you didn't understand a word I said. I understand your words, and we seem to speak the same language. The purpose of this thread was Libya and what's happening there. How Israel got involved is a mystery to me, but it's not something I can let pass without remark. Israel has NOTHING to do with Libya in the context of what's being discussed. People who wish to slag the country or its people should start another thread and have at it there. imo


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: number 6
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 11:01 PM

999 - I sent you a pm


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 11:47 PM

Thanks, 6. I have answered and I'll phone you tomorrow. Best to you.

BM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:13 AM

Purposes of threads have a delicious habit of not remaining what the originator intended. If I had a quid for every thread of mine that got derailed (and that I'd joined in the derailing of) I'd be King Croesus. Libya and Israel are connected in that an awful lot of us scratch our heads at that ready intervention of the west in an oil country whilst similar atrocities meted out to Palestinians are left unchallenged. And don't tell they're not similar. They are not identical but they both cause misery, insecurity and fear for thousands of ordinary families. For the record, I am not one of those people who think Israel and its people have no right to be. I might have thought in 1948, had I been a sentient being at the time, that there should have been no right to an Israel, but we are where we are and I have no patience with Israel wiper-off-the-mappers, Holocaust-deniers, antisemites and similar scumbags.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:36 AM

I have no patience for Islamo-fascist scumbag terrorists who cause misery, insecurity and fear for thousands of ordinary families.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 08:06 AM

And who might they be, then? I might suggest, in your response (if you can be arsed) to be fairly careful with your use of "Islamo-fascist."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 08:42 AM

I apologize for losing my rag. Israel might be one of the few buttons of mine that can still get pushed. I've seen too many threads disappear into Israel/Israeli bashing. Sorry.

BM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 10:11 AM

Leaping lizards!

And creeping crud!

So what happens when Gadaffi's forces dig in deep in the next town the rebels try to take, where they can't be bombed out via air power or missile strikes without likely injury to the civilian population? And why haven't Gadaffi forces mined the major roads as they've retreated?

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 10:17 AM

"And why haven't Gadaffi forces mined the major roads as they've retreated?"

From what Al Jazeera is reporting, his forces, when overcome by the pro-democracy rebels, are fleeing in disarray, leaving their armaments behind.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 10:26 AM

I have a bad feeling about interfering in the Libyan situation...a very bad feeling...I just hope I'm wrong..


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 11:34 AM

Well you should, Liz. War has become a spectator sport (with NO offense meant to posters here) and there are casualties that sicken us all. TMWATN is very bad news. The scene in the movie Old Yeller where the dog is put down because it was rabid: had to be done, but every kid in North America was in tears because of it, me included. I won't be in tears when TMWATN is dethroned.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 12:18 PM

"War has become a spectator sport..."

War has been a spectator "sport" ever since reporters were filing reports from the front lines to newspaper readers anxious to hear of the latest battles and to dissect them at the local watering hole.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: BTNG
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 12:37 PM

war has been a spectator sport since William Russell reported for The Times from The Crimean War

and interesting book about war reporting is The First Casualty: The War Correspondent as Hero and Myth-maker from the Crimea to Kosovo by Phillip Knightley


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 04:25 PM

999-

So when I google "TMWATN" i find this phrase:

"TMWATN will burn in the nuclear flames of Barneyland's cannibal realms!"

Now it's all clear!

I was raised with fire arms on our farm but when someone suggested to me that it might be a good idea to carry one while I was working in a remote area of Ethiopia, I wisely decided that was not a good idea. It would have been a good idea to have been more cautious, however, but that is thread drift, and I won't have that! I obviously survived.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:19 PM

Canadian General to Take NATO Command of Libya
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: March 25, 2011 at 1:12 PM ET

    TORONTO (AP) — A Canadian general will take over command of the NATO mission in Libya.

Canadian Defense Minister Peter MacKay said Friday that Lt.-Gen. Charles Bouchard has been designated to lead the alliance's military campaign in Libya.

Bouchard is stationed in Naples, Italy, at the Allied Joint Force Command.

Bouchard's recent job was deputy commander of NORAD, reporting to an American general.

"He will be commander of the NATO operations, yet to be fully defined NATO operations," MacKay said.

The international coalition confronting Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi has agreed to put NATO in charge of enforcing the no-fly zone. It was still trying to hammer out a deal to relieve U.S. forces of command of all military operations in the country.

U.S. President Barack Obama and Defense Secretary Robert Gates have both said that American command of the operations would last only a few days.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:44 PM

TMWATN -- the man with a thousand names

reference to an earlier post where I mentioned Libya's leader having so many spellings for his name.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:47 PM

From BBC

"the Benghazi-based Transitional National Council said the rebels could begin exporting oil in less than a week.

Spokesman Ali Tarhouni said oil fields in territory under opposition control were already producing more than 100,000 barrels of crude a day.

He said the Gulf state of Qatar had agreed to help bring it to market"

News reports like this and others that Gaddafi's forces are increasingly turning tail and fleeing as the pro democracy rebels advance closer to Tripoli are signals that the end game may be in sight. We can only hope that it will be achieved with minimal loss of life....Insh'Allah.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 08:36 PM

The only reason Mr Kadhafi has "a thousand names" is that we English-speaking and other western people are apparently unable to agree among ourselves on how to spell a name that is written in a completely different script (Arabic) in another language. We don't know how to spell it, although we can all hear how it's pronounced if a Libyan says it! ;-)

We all hear the same thing, therefore, but our people end up spelling it 50 different ways. I trust that the Libyans spell it one way, consistently, when they write it in Arabic script.

So who does this make the ignorant party here...us or them? ;-D And why should Gadhaffi himself be ridiculed for the fact that WE can't agree on how to spell his name?

God knows...there are enough legitimate reasons to ridicule him! But that's not one of them.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 06:00 AM

I know that for fuck sake, LH. Jaysus. Give it a rest.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 08:16 AM

As I posted above:

"So what happens when Gadaffi's forces dig in deep in the next town the rebels try to take, where they can't be bombed out via air power or missile strikes without likely injury to the civilian population? And why haven't Gadaffi forces mined the major roads as they've retreated?"

Too tough a question to wrestle with or am I off-topic?

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 09:16 AM

The latest update from Al Jazeera:

"Libyan rebels are claiming to have captured the town of Sirte, the home of embattled Libyan leader, Muammar Gaddafi.

Shamsi Abdul Molah, a spokesman for the opposition's National Council, told Al Jazeera that opposition forces had moved into the city at approximately 1.30am last night (local time).

"[They say that] they found it an unarmed city. They had no problem getting in there, they did not encounter any resistance," reported Sue Turton, Al Jazeera's correspondent in Benghazi. Celebratory gunfire was head in Benghazi, the opposition's stronghold in the east of the country, as news filtered in of the taking of Gaddafi's hometown.

Al Jazeera has not been able to independently verify the report, and the Reuters news agency has quoted a witness in Sirte as saying that the city is still under government control.

An engagement between pro- and anti-government forces occured about 30km from the city of Nofilia (which itself is 180km from Sirte), where pro-Gaddafi forces are shelling positions near a large opposition force that was advancing on Gaddafi's hometown.

A column of military vehicles was seen leaving Sirte on Sunday, heading west towards the capital, Tripoli."

If this news is true, it would seem to imply that Gadhafi's forces are in full flight. That could be a BIG IF.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 01:39 PM

Just heard a report from a BBC reporter in Sirte.

The town is still very much in Government control....Population seem to be staunch Gadaffi supporters.....green flags in every window.

One of the inhabitants when interviewed said, "they can come to talk(the insurgents)and we will listen, but if they come with guns, they will be met with guns"

This leaves the NATO terrorists with a slight predicament.....if the insurgents attack Sirte and the civilian population, will the terrorists feel obliged to defend the inhabitants of Sirte by incinerating the insurgents in the same manner as they did Col Gadaffi's troops?

You are only allowed three guesses unfortunately


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: melodeonboy
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:39 PM

Sorry for the thread drift, but the question of why we spell Gaddafi's name in a variety of ways is very simple. As Arabic uses a different script from ours and has, for many of its letters, an inexact correspondence to our phonetic system, we transliterate Arabic names into what we think is the nearest equivalent. This explains why there are, for example, so many different spellings of the name "Mohammed". Even by reading Gaddafi's name with a "d", we are actually pronouncing the letter with a North African accent. In Standard Arabic it would be a soft "th" (as in "with").

It also works the other way round. Westerners may find their names spelt differently in Arabic by different Arabic speakers.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 04:14 PM

akenaton-

As I cautioned that initial report from Al Jazeera was wildly optimistic. Here's what that press source says now:


"Forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi are resisting an advance by Libyan rebels towards the embattled Libyan leader's hometown of Sirte in the fiercest clashes since the start of a sweeping offensive that has brought a string of coastal towns under opposition control.

The rebels, backed by international coalition air strikes, have advanced largely unchecked since Friday but claims in Benghazi, the rebel's eastern stronghold, earlier on Monday that Sirte had also fallen were premature.

Opposition fighters are now engaged in clashes about 100km east of the city, with pro-Gaddafi forces shelling their front lines.

Fighting is ongoing at Nawfaliya, about 180km east of Sirte, where opposition forces say they have come upon a heavily mined road. Pro-Gaddafi forces have dug into positions near the front line, and are shelling opposition fighters.

Al Jazeera's Hoda Abdel Hamid, reporting from the east of Nawfaliya, said: "I've not been able to confirm that there has actually been an advance in the town itself [Sirte]. They [rebels] managed to get really close to Sirte but they didn't get in."

"Sirte will not be easy to take," said General Hamdi Hassi, an opposition commander from the city of Bin Jawad.

"Now, because of NATO strikes on [the government's] heavy weapons, we're almost fighting with the same weapons."

'We're manoeuvring'

Fawzi Bukatif, the commander of the Martyr's Brigade, part of the forces battling Gaddafi, told Al Jazeera: "We're manoeuvring ... we are starting ... we are checking what kind of forces they have there but we are standing at Hagela now - almost 100km from Sirte."

Bukatif said the rebels' progress has been hampered by a lack of weapons as they rely on "old Russian weapons".

"The ... problem we have is we have run out of weapons," he said.

"You know our weapons are traditional ones; the old ones; the Russian weapons. We need ammunition. We need new weapons. We need anti-tanks; we do not have facilities [but] we have the soldiers left behind by Gaddafi ...

"If we do have weapons and ammunitions that we need at the moment, we can move strongly and faster."

Fresh fighting continued further west in rebel-held Misurata, where rebels admitted that Gaddafi forces had gained control of part of the town after days of heavy fighting and despite air strikes on Saturday by French and British forces.

"Part of the city is under rebel control and the other part is under the control of forces loyal to Gaddafi," a spokesman told the Reuters news agency.

Rebels dimissed reports that a ceasefire had been declared by the Libyan foreign ministry in Misurata and that anti-terrorism units there had stopped firing at rebel forces.

Saddun al-Misrati, a member of the rebels' revolutionary committee, told Al Jazeera: "We rubbish this announcement ... Nothing that they say will make a difference on the ground."

Nine people were killed overnight by snipers and shelling by pro-Gaddafi forces, according to a doctor in Misurata, while a resident told Reuters that 24 people had been wounded in mortar attacks by government forces.

A Libyan government spokesman claimed Misurata had been liberated.

Al Jazeera's James Bays has been following the rebel offensive, which has seen them claim the towns of Ajdabiya, Brega, Ras Lanuf and Bin Jawad.

Stretched lines

Speaking from Bin Jawad, Bays said it was uncertain where the frontline was. People coming along the coastal road from Sirte said Gaddafi forces were gathered around 60km outside the city, positioned in trees, our correspondent said.

The speed of the rebel advance has stretched lines of communications and created logistical problems, said Bays. One problem is a lack of electricity, which means that petrol pumps do not work.

"At petrol stations they're using plastic bottles on strings down into the tank below the station to pull up fuel," said Bays.

The rebels' advance along the coast has triggered exuberant celebrations in towns along the route such as Ajdabiya with rebel fighters firing their weapons in celebration.

But government forces appear to have been withdrawing their heavy armour, rather than engaging with the rebels.

There were reports on Sunday of a column of military vehicles, including truck-mounted anti-aircraft guns, seen leaving Sirte in the direction of Tripoli, accompanied by dozens of civilian cars carrying families, according to a Reuters reporter in the vicinity.

The opposition's National Council has said it expects a major battle to occur in the area around Tripoli, as opposed to at Sirte.

NATO command

Meanwhile, international air strikes continued on Monday with British Tornado aircraft attacking and destroying Libyan government ammunition bunkers in the Sabha area of the southern desert, the British defence ministry said.

'Storm Shadow missiles were launched against ammunition bunkers used to re-supply Libyan government troops attacking civilians in the north of the country, including Misurata,' it said in a statement."

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:33 PM

We have an imperial presidency; King Obama has declared war unilaterally and twisted the arms of so-called allies to do it.

99 sorties are being carried out by the U.S. The other members of NATO report to American generals.

The problem arises when we don't know who the rebels are or why they chose
violence over non-violent resistance as was done in Tunisia, Egypt and now
Yemen, Bahrain and soon Saudi Arabia.

Will these rebels replace a brutal dictator with another brutal dictatorship?
When guns and weaponry rule, these means continue into politics.

Mass slaughter is done throughout the world in Indonesia (Copasset army),
Darfur, Ivory Coast, and human rights violations in China, Saudi Arabia,
Israel, and many countries in the world. Why isolate Libya just "because we can."?

Obama didn't think this out carefully enough, that is why he doesn't have the support for this effort, has possibly split the peace movement down the center,
reinforced Pax Americana in Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen, and elsewhere.

Ultimately the thousands of lives he claims he has saved may be more costly in human lives down the road. You don't think there will be American "boots on the ground"? Wanna' bet?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 01:21 PM

Well, I watched a few of these 'rebels' last night on the news and I shuddered, because most of 'em looked off their rockers to me. I truly can't see Libya settling down to Tea and Toast if MwaMwa Qu'dafi is blown to Kingdom Come one evening...

I think Civil War will rage for many years.

I think Uncivil War will also rage for many years, whilst the West tries to gain control of the Oil, which is what this is *really* about, let's face.

If they moved MwaMwa and his People to Zimbawbe, then left them there, all killing each other, the West wouldn't bat an eyelid...They'd just shrug their shoulders and go "Mymy, MwaMwa's at it again, deardear" and order another round of cucumber sandwiches, whilst making deals with Mugabe and his People, who of course, they'd moved over to Libya as the second part of The Oily Plan of The New World Disorder......

"TMWATN -- the man with a thousand names" ...coming to a cinema near you very soon............


Sorry, I don't mean to make light of this situation, but it sucks, it REALLY sucks...and the fallout will be catastrophic in the long run, I fear...Hopefully, I'm wrong though...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 01:33 PM

From Stringsinger:

"...why they chose violence over non-violent resistance as was done in Tunisia, Egypt and now Yemen, Bahrain and soon Saudi Arabia."

This article gives a timeline of the start of the peaceful protest and how it turned into the war that is now.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 01:42 PM

bobad, have you heard when Bouchard takes over command?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 02:11 PM

There seems to be some wrangling among member states about which parts of the mission NATO should assume. Some current info here.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 09:47 AM

As rebels go, this lot really do look a right shower. I can't see that arming them would be any guarantee of their winning.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 10:02 AM

Poster is Akenaton, who needs to reset his cookie. -Joe Offer-

Arm the insurgents?    Surely they must be kidding!

Is Cameron really as mad as Blair? If it wasn't so pathetically sad it would be funny, just like something out of Monty Python.

Re the UN resolution, do they just alter the wording to suit themselves?
"Protect civilians" has now become "protect civilians under attack from Col Gadaffi's forces.......the insurgents with their mobile rocket launchers are evidently classed as civilians


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 05:34 PM

Poster is Akenaton, who needs to reset his cookie. -Joe Offer-

Those who advise arming them, look even more of a shower Mr McGrath.

Pleased to see you back amonst us BTW.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 08:23 PM

Gaddafi's foreign minister Moussa Koussa has defected to England. This is not surprising as his body language, while reading official government pronouncements, betrayed his shame and discomfort with the words he was being forced to parrot.

It is also being reported that four other of Gaddafi's most senior officials have also defected.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 02:03 AM

Poster is Akenaton, who needs to reset his cookie. -Joe Offer-
It has been reported that CIA operatives have been working with the insurgents for over two weeks.

Also that Mr Obama has signed a "secret" order which allows the arming of the insurgents.

Looks like civil war and the deaths of thousands is inevitable.
For a result which will in all likelyhood, turn out just as Iraq did.
Repression of women, government by religious dogma.

We are hypocritical terrorists in word and deed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 05:51 AM

Apparently Mr Kousa has announced that he 'intends' to sever his links with the regime. Unless, presumably, the regime wins. In which case he's just here for a spot of shopping.

I agree, McGrath. The rebels are starting to remind me of the schoolboys in 'Gregory's Girl'.

If they're really serious maybe they should try capturing a post office. Worked for Patrick Pearse. Disrupted the supply of stamps in Dublin for an entire week.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 08:11 AM

"I can't see that arming the rebels" would guarantee success. And NATO now says arming them would not be covered by the UN mandate.

Brilliant.

So let's watch them lose in slow motion-- ( Mudcat hand-wringing expertise again is here again in all its glory.)

Rather than doing what needs to be done:



Air support all the time--including when they are attacking Gadhafi's forces.

Recognizing them as the only legitimate Libyan government.

Arming them with weapons at least comparable to those of Gadhafi's forces.

Training them.

And providing intelligence.



And doing all this immediately,   Since time is not on the rebels' side.

The longer we wait to do all this, the more we will hear about how NATO countries can't afford this, and the more likely NATO will give up.

I would in fact hazard a guess that part of Mudcat opposition to helping the rebels militarily is the fact that in the UK the government is Conservative.   Conversely part of the reason some US posters support it is that Obama is in charge here.


Since if the rebels are finally defeated--with the bloodbath just postponed from a few weeks ago--there will be huge recriminations against the Western governments which did not follow through with actions necessary to prevent it.   And those Western governments' popularity with their own citizens will take a huge plunge.

Which is just fine with some UK posters.

And not fine with US posters--though I think US posters who support the rebels probably do so for the right reasons--preventing the bloodbath and preventing Gadhafi from any claim on the $33 billion frozen--which he would then use to build himself a nuclear bomb, among other things.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 08:34 AM

Ron-

There is no easy answer evidently in the short run, since the short run has crumbled once again in the face of trained and more heavily armed Gadhafi forces.

"Training them...And doing all this immediately" has its own contradictions. I think what's happening now is the recognition on the part of the US and its allies that if they want the Rebels to succeed they'll have to invest more time and money in training and arming them. It's also possible by demonstrating that resolve (by leaks to the media) that more of Gadhafi's inner circle will desert him, salvaging what they can.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 08:39 AM

One more thing:

Western commentators have to stop talking about how x percentage of the rebels are al-Qaeda fighters.

If the rebels lose, who will be there to pick up the pieces?   No points for guessing al-Qaeda.--that's too obvious--except to those who refuse to see.

If the rebels lose that will drive the survivors--and supporters throughout the world-- right into the arms of al-Qaeda.


Look, it's simple:   either this is a fight worth fighting or it's not. Our leaders have said that it is worth it. So they have to do what's necessary to win--and we have to support them in this--and pressure them to follow through.

And stop whining about it.

And perhaps we'll also learn about the problems of war by committee.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 08:48 AM

As I said, time is not on the rebels' side.

The time for coming up with objections is over--in fact long gone.

Hess defected in 1941.   How much longer did the war go on?

This one is much more likely to turn out right soon--if the West does what's necessary.

We may devoutly wish for the Gadhafi regime to self-destruct.   But Gadhafi has told us--more than once--how likely that is. It's time to believe him.

And i still say a $10 million price on his head--informally offered to his mercenaries--might well do wonders.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 09:32 AM

An ex British soldier who served in Northern Ireland was on Radio 4 this morning, he read out an article that appeared in an Issue of the Republican News he obtained while serving over there, this paper was printed by Sinn Fein.

It appears Moussa Koussa was a hero of republicans for the part he played when the IRA secured quantities of weapons and explosives from Gaddafi's Libya in the 1980's.

It appears he praised republicans for their attacks on the British Government due to their support and assistance of America during the US Air Force's bombing attacks on Tripoli and Benghazi in 1986.

Maybe they will take him into their care.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 10:33 AM

"And perhaps we'll also learn about the problems of war by committee."

Yeah to that, Ron. A camel is a horse designed by a committee.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 11:28 AM

Camels find that sort of specist rhetoric quite offensive, Roscoe. You should hear what they say about horses!

- Chongo


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 12:58 PM

Listen up you banana-eating hairy old goat--keep this shit up and I will tell Little Hawk that you're pissing on the parade and HE'LL deal with you!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 12:59 PM

It's quite possible that most Libyans prefer the rebels. On the other hand it is also possible that most Libyans prefer Gaddafi. Nobody in public life or the media seem in the least interesting in addressing this question, or looking seriously at what kind of Libya is likely to emerge if the rebels win. Those are important questions.

Either way it's pretty clear that the only possibility of a military victory by the rebels would lie with pretty massive military intervention that would go far beyond trying to prevent civilian casualties - and which would in fact, as in Iraq or Afghanistan, involve inflicting very sizeable civilian casualties. Even if that were seen as desirable, it isn't on the cards.

Some kind of stalemate ceasefire probably with a de facto partition seems to be the most likely outcome. Since the oil, and therefore the money, is in the East, that doesn't leave Gaddafi with a great deal to play with, and his prospects of holding on for very long do not seem that great.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 10:12 PM

McGrath-

What you are ignoring in your post is how dynamic war fronts are in an environment such as Libya. The nation, what's left of it, is clustered along the coastal highway. And the front can change dynamically back and forth hundreds of miles, as it did several times in World War 2 and as it has done in the last few weeks.

There may be a final strawman who breaks this camel's back, and Gadhafi is down for the count. And then there might well be mass confusion of who's in charge of the country then.

I don't think there will be a stalemate but the process may take another month to work itself out.

It would still be a major political mistake for Western powers to send in anything else but trainers and spotters. I doubt if the Arab League quite has the stomach to send in its own "peace-keeping" force but that would be an interesting twist. Someone needs to re-arm and re-supply the rebels.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 11:41 AM

"Someone needs to re-arm and re-supply the rebels."

WHY?.....and who the fuck are the rebels? What do they really want?
Are they larger in number than those who support their government.
Why is it any of OUR business, when dozens of other dictators who are "friends" of ours, treat their people much worse than Gadaffi?

American bombers have already blown Gadaffi's infant daughter to pieces, now we are practicing terrorism against him and his people.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 11:44 AM

Sorry Joe :0).....that was me again.....got my N de P fixed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: pdq
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 11:54 AM

"American bombers have already blown Gadaffi's infant daughter to pieces..."

So when was this supposed to have happened?

You don't mean the 1986 retalliation for the bombing of several night clubs that hosted US military in Africa and Europe?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 12:03 PM

Exactly so pdq......my point is that we in the developed West, regularly practice terrorism......we hardly own the high ground!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 12:14 PM

300. Bombs away !


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 12:26 PM

"my point is that we in the developed West, regularly practice terrorism"

Yet you choose to live there and support it with your taxes and see no contradiction with that?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 12:50 PM

With regard to the 1986 bombing having killed Gadhafi's infant daughter, Wkipedia summary raises some questions:

"According to medical staff in the nearby hospital, two dozen people arrived in military uniform and two without uniform. Total Libyan casualties are estimated at 60, including casualties at the bombed airbases. However, the regime created a propaganda campaign with varying stories about killed civilians. For example, the regime's media claimed that Gaddafi's "adopted daughter" had been killed. The name "Hanna" was given to the press. Nobody had ever heard of such daughter. Information about her was also conflicting, for example, her age varied from 12 months to 6 years. Despite absurdity and variations of the stories, the campaign was so successful that a large proportion of the Western press reported the regime's stories as facts."

But there is little doubt that "some civilians" were killed in the retaliation bombing raid, as authorized by President Reagan.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 12:53 PM

He "chooses" to live there? ;-) Come on. That's a pointless remark, but one I hear people make often when they are looking to take a shot at someone over some political opinion the person has expressed.

It isn't that he chose to live there, bobad, it's that life itself placed him there when he was born, same as it did you, me, and millions of other people who were born in the western countries.

It's the hand he was dealt, and so he deals with it. He pays the taxes, because he has no choice about the matter. He is not obliged to agree with all the policies of the society he lives in just because he lives there.

For him to uproot his entire life and move somewhere else to some complete other culture just to satisfy your rhetorical need to take a shot at him would be...ridiculous. ;-D And even if he did move somewhere else...anywhere else...it's very probable that he would disagree with certain aspects of that society too. So would he then be obliged to move yet again to some other culture? And where would his search for total approval of a culture end? ;-D Nowhere, that's where.

He didn't choose anything about it. He IS there. Period. And he disagrees with his culture's political conduct in a number of respects. That does not mean he "supports" it with his taxes or any other crap like that nor is it a contradiction. It's a fact that arises out of the fact that life is not as dead simple as your jibe to Akenaton would appear to make it.

I also think that the West practices a great deal of terrorism...and I have no intention of moving away from here, because my whole life is here, my friends are here, and much that I love is here...nor do I support that terrorism when I pay my taxes. I simply pay my taxes because there's no way of avoiding doing so, that's all.

I accept the fact that I live in a complicated and imperfect world where things are not perfect and never will be, and there's not a hell of a lot I can do about that. Don't ask me why I don't move somewhere else, okay? Cos it's a damn silly question.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 04:25 AM

BBC news Sat.

Insurgents are using warplanes to bomb govt troops in "UN no fly zone"....civilians have been killed in rebel air strike.
UN arms embargoe does not seem to apply to insurgents who may already have been supplied with weapons in contravention of UN resolution.

We are using terrorism to affect regime change in what is basically an insurection, at a time when our own people are being punished for the failure of capitalism.

Could this be an organised distraction from what is being done to workers, pensioners, and the sick in the United Kingdom?

Mr Obama seems to have been right to pause and think hard about US involvement in Libya......unfortunately Hillary the Hawk is ready to strike, not only at Libya, but at Mr Obama himself.

As I said years ago inviting Hill n' Bill into his admin. was Mr Obama's biggest and terminal mistake.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 04:43 AM

It was wrong to go into Libya. It was not thought out properly and they seem to have completely overlooked the 'rebels' are nothing more than local people who've got carried away with a spur of the moment idea, rather than a pre-planned and well thought out decision, to take back their country.

They were saying today on BBC News how the rebels are now being given AK47s, with no training..and guess what, in their excitement (and hysteria) they're firing these things off, wounding and killing each other and themselves...They seemed to find this almost er...puzzling.

Puzzling? WHY would they be feeling that way????

I've not got all the ins and outs as to why we're over there, but I tell you this, it's got hardly anything to do with protecting yer average Libyan person in the street..I find it all quite sinister, to be honest..

Never mind, I expect that eventually MwaMwa and his government will all flee to......England...and set up home over here...and Mr. Al Libyani will take over, issue AK47s to ALL his citizens, increase the price of oil by 600% and life will be just hunkydory for everyone.

I wonder if we're going to give Mousa Kousa a Council House? I've heard there's one going next door to Chicken Licken here in Torquay...and apparently Turkey Lurkey and Henny Penny from Liverpool, have put in a request for him to come and live in their road, as they feel it would be great to buy Mousa Kousa an alcohol-free beer down at their local...

Oh dear me...what an horrendous palava, eh?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 10:03 AM

Evidently the Rebels have driven Gadhafi forces out of Brega again according to this detailed report from Al Jazeera: click here for report!

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 10:21 AM

Charley, apparently the rebels are reporting that they have retaken Brega but the report you linked to dates from March 3.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 11:02 AM

Bodad-

Have to be more careful. Thanks for the correction.

I was wondering why there was a report of a Libyan jet doing a bombing run.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 03:44 PM

So now supposedly the rebels have asked for a ceasefire.    How's that for throwing a monkeywrench into the business?    There are some conditions, one being Cadhafi's forces withdrawing from cities they are now besieging.   Another:   "freedom of expression for our western brothers".

Source: al-Jazeera 2 April 2011.

So we'd probably take this news with a sizable grain of salt, to say the least, unless confirmed elsewhere.



Of course the report is true and if Gadhafi rejects these terms, it might give the rebels a stronger hand---more clearly the moral high ground.

Which might result in more direct military aid from the West.

But now we're obviously into the area of total speculation.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 05:38 PM

"As far as applying the Gaddafi Precedent goes, there would be a stronger case for action against Hamas in Gaza than against Israel."

When you compare the amount of casualties of the Palestinians,
they are far greater than what Israel has suffered. In their actions, there might not be that much difference between Gaddafi and Netanyahu. Throw in Copasset in Indonesia,
Kalifa in Bahrain, Assad in Syria, Salleh in Yemen and Bush in the U.S. And now we have a runaway President who would be king.

As to the terrorist label, there are so many examples in the world from so many countries that it becomes a matter of partisan name-calling and the term has lost its meaning.

The argument for bombing anyone today becomes sheer sophistry.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 06:22 PM

Stringsinger, tell me how many people inside Gaza have been killed by Hamas. Tell me how many people have been killed inside Israel by the Israeli Government.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 03:56 AM

Back to Libya, Fourteen insurgents and medics killed yesterday in UN backed air strikes.....by accident of course.

Arab opinion hardening against "Western involvement"

Cameron, Sarkozy and the other adventurers could find they have bet the wrong horse once again.

Mr Obama's hesitancy may be vindicated and Hillary shown for what she really is.

This is getting interesting


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 07:02 AM

"Friday's air strike came as rebels shot tracer fire into the air to celebrate the entry of an advance column into Brega.

"It was a mistake" by the rebels, Khamis said. "The aircraft thought they were coming under attack and fired on the convoy."

Speaking to Al Jazeera earlier, Mustafa Gheriani, a Transitional National Council spokesman, said the loss of lives on Friday was very much regretted.

"However, we understand that collateral damage may also take place and we do accept it, because we look at the big picture which saving more lives.

"So a few people being victims of circumstances or of being at the wrong time or the wrong place it is more or less very bad luck," Gheriani said.

Al Jazeera


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 10:58 AM

The people who are at the "wrong time and the wrong place" are the coalition of the unwilling......US!

Mr Obama actually seems too decent for the politics game.
He is being pushed into another "dumb" war by his arch enemy Warrior princess Clinton and her associates in the White House.
Playing politics with peoples lives.

Beware America!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 03:01 PM

Teribus, the Israeli government has second-class citizens in it's midst. Those who have been banned to the hinterlands (bantustans) have been mass slaughtered. The age-old
question prevails. Who was there first?

Not likely that ardent Zionists are about to kill each other. They reserve that right for others.

With this logic, the white men killed no Native Americans.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 03:11 PM

The problem in taking sides in a civil war is that the US doesn't really know who they are supporting. The so-called rebels might be just as dictatorial and authoritarian as Gaddafi.

The trouble is that when you try to resolve differences with weaponry, the risk is run
of an out-of-control outcome.

There are hawks who religiously subscribe to this mode of solving political problems but they create as many or more problems as they solve.

The biggest mistake they made in Egypt is to trust their military to make decisions.

The Egyptian military love to check that all their women are virgins.

What about the Second World War? Could it have been resolved differently?
Evidence is coming out now that says that it could have with a greater understanding of peaceful non-violent resistance. I refer everyone to Gene Sharp. He can be obtained by search engines.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 03:31 PM

"The problem in taking sides in a civil war is that the US doesn't really know who they are supporting. The so-called rebels might be just as dictatorial and authoritarian as Gaddafi."

Don't you mean that the UN doesn't know who it's supporting?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 08:05 PM

Hey Stringsinger we are talking here about the "Gaddafi Precedent" i.e. a Government deliberately turning its armed forces against the population of the country. Now stop f**king about and tell me how many of their own population have Hamas killed in Gaza, and how many of thier own population have Israel killed in Israel. Seems a pretty logical question to ask, now give me an answer, don't wriggle.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 09:05 PM

Teribus-

I think you might agree that unless NATO forces resumes aggressive bombing of Gadhafi's front-line troops, the Rebels may collapse entirely. At this point it seems to me that the Rebels need to establish some kind of defensible front-line position while they regroup for training and new supplies. Of course front lines in Libya appear to be endemically permeable.

No Western country in its right mind is going to commit more than trainers and special forces on the ground. What do you think the prospect is for the Rebels now?

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 10:26 PM

Regis Debray wrote the book on little wars. This is NOT a little war. When disorganized (read undisciplined troops) engage disciplined troops, even at or near equal strengths, the disciplined troops win. We tend to think that 'will' matters. It indeed does, but only when that will is supported by arms. Tanks vs men: who wins? Many who post here likely remember 1956 or 1989 when that was demonstrated and shown beyond doubt.

The UN mandate has laid out the rules of this engagement. The rebels are ill-disciplined troops. The government troops are poor as troops, but they have practiced (I prefer practised as the verb). The reason Castro's--and yes, 'Che's'--people won was due to the inability of the Batista government to keep it's troops in line. Soldiers will die in those kinds of fights if the ideology is entrenched. AND they will make their defeaters wish they'd never got into it in the first place.

The French at Dien Bien Phu fought valiantly. An acquaintance of mine was in the FFL, and he knew and knows the requirements of being in a 'unit' like that. Part of the deal is that you volunteer and then train and then do the job. Period. If you ain't game for that--and it always seems like a good idea at the time--then don't join, and 'Don't cry for me Argentina'.

Problem here is that the troops are big on rhetoric and short on munitions, discipline, training and 'end game philosophy'. When men--and now women (a philosophy with which I disagree), although I think women should also have the right to 'die for their country'--and although I agree with Patton that it's my responsibility to make some other bastard die for his country--unless there is a unified command, there is NO command.

The rebels may die in a 'last stand' (and that will be an example of a superior force being met by resolve and study by Tonka Wakon (Crazy Horse in my world): they will not do so because of lack of resolve; they will do so because of a lack of arms. And we will say later that there was nothing we could do.

Frank, a man whose philosophy I admire has three times refused to tell me what WE should do when in the process of non-violently protesting an egregious wrong the people against whom we protest hit us. Well, I suppose we are supposed to get hit. Not me, and not anymore. Been there, done it, and fuck that.

Think as you wish, but please understand we are not cohesive in these terms. We did this before in Hungary and Czechslovakia. We were wrong then, and we would be equally wrong now.

imo

Those wishing to castigate me for this view may do so, but two people are the only ones I will answer: Teribus and Little Hawk..

No offense to anyone else.

BM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 07:43 AM

This report just in:

"Reporting from Tripoli, Libya— Italy on Monday formally recognized the rebel government of eastern Libya, dealing yet another blow to the embattled regime of Col. Moammar Kadafi.

Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini said Rome would open an office in rebel-held territory and formally recognize the Benghazi-based Libyan National Council as the only representative of the country, which Italy once ruled as a colonial ward and to which it maintains deep cultural and economic ties. Italy joins France as the second Western country to formally recognize the rebel government."

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 10:20 AM

To answer your question Charlie, I see the rebels located in the east of the country's cause no different now from when the UN resolution was passed. The UN resolution is so worded that it makes it very easy for those involved to provide an umbrella of air cover to act and prevent Gaddafi's forces overwhelming the rebels in Benghazi. The fighting by rebel forces in the west of Libya is a little harder to support as they are already fighting inside the city of Misrata.

How I think it should be played for here on in?

1: It was extremely important that France, Qatar and now Italy have officially recognised the rebel ruling council as the "Government of Libya". That semantically overcomes the accusation about interfering in a civil war and bi-lateral agreements can be made between those "Governments".

2: Gaddafi apparently if reports are to be believed is furiously casting round to find a means of ending this. If both sides agree to hold talks (Note: Agree to hold talks - Not actually hold talks) then the UN can order in "boots-on-the-ground" in the form of a "Peacekeeping Force" and that will form a physical barrier between the warring factions. Normally these troops are pretty ineffectual but the force can be tailored to meet the needs of the situation. Ideally this force would be provided by the member states of the Arab League but it must not initially include troops from any "western" nation. Once Gaddafi's forces attack the "Peacekeepers" as I am sure that they would do, then the gloves can come off and other troops can be deployed to help the UN contingent on the ground and take on the aggressors, this basically is Misrata's only hope and it is important as it is one of Gaddafi's two oil terminals.

3: Time is the key, already the rebels are beginning to form a more disciplined fighting force. The rebels are being reinforced in terms of arms and supplies from Egypt, whereas Gaddafi's forces are becoming more and more isolated internationally, unfortunately there are massive stockpiles of arms and munitions inside Libya. Airstrikes under the present "Rules of Engagement" have hit some of these but it must be assumed that Gaddafi's forces still possess sufficient material to engage the rebels. Alternatively Gaddafi's troops hurried offensive may indicate that sufficient of these stores have been destroyed and he must defeat the rebels quickly, or grab as much as the country as possible before he reaches the point where he must agree to talk.

4: Gaddafi's forces have altered their tactics and have abandoned conventional strikes using armour and artillery, they too now roam about in "technicals" and must appear very similar to the rebels they are fighting to observers and from the air. This is where UAV's might come into the picture as they have an extended "loiter time" over the battlefield and can "pick-off" targets at will.

5: Italy relies strongly on oil & gas from Libya, as do Germany and France, so for Europe the only outcome that is in anyway acceptable to them is one in which Gaddafi is removed, because should he survive this "rebellion" then any idea of the rapproachment with the west can be thrown right out of the window.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 01:27 PM

My sympathies were originally with the civilians who launched peaceful protests against the Gadhafi regime. The regime chose to respond with violence. Since then the situation has grown more and more complicated, and I frankly don't know what to make of it now. (shrug) Nor do I know quite what to make of the various western responses to it. Perhaps they find it as confusing as I do. ;-) I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case.

At any rate, I have no stake at present in arguing with anyone here about it. I'm simply watching to see what will happen next.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 02:13 PM

Here's today's update from Al Jareera with regard to Rebel efforts in and around Brega and the successful evacuation via a NATO ship from Misurata of hundreds of injured fighters and civilians: Click here for article

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: J-boy
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 12:11 AM

War sucks. But more importantly it is stupid. We have to quit this ridiculous game before it's too late. We are living on borrowed time. Our luck is about to run out.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 12:22 AM

"War sucks. But more importantly it is stupid."

Just as well then that we are not at war with anyone isn't it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: J-boy
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 12:27 AM

"Mankind must put an end to war or war must put an end to mankind."-JFK. He knew the absurdity and horror of it up close.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: goatfell
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 12:57 PM

the bully boys of the wworld are at it again and then there will 'freindly' fire so watch out you british


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 02:56 PM

How cynically Teribus promotes the manipulation of others.

I suppose even he will admit that if conditions worsen in the UK or US due to the recent failure of the capitalist system, unemployment rates rise, public services are attacked, pensions and savings disappear.......should an armed socialist insurrection arise to combat these attacks, our government would react in exactly the same manner as Col Gadaffi's regime. The army would be let loose on the insurgents.....they would be massacred in the "National Interest"

During a lifetime of politics watching, I have observed that "Democracy", "Sovereignty", "Freedom"etc, revert to the status of words with many meanings.....when the system or regime is under threat

To attemt to implant Western style "democracy" in Libya, is as mad as our recent adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan....a gift to the fundamentalists of Islam.

Many observers see the hands of Al Quaeda behind the insurgency, and there may be some truth in that, but I see a portion of the insurgents as young people doing what young people do, without much regard for the consequences.

I see the vultures circling over Libya, as they circled over Iraq,

A pudgy spoiled public shoolboy...(Bunter Cameron) hoping to earn his spurs by bringing down his very own Saddam.
An unwilling Obama pushed forward by the White House female birds of prey.
An unpopular French president drooling over oil rights for a victorious, murderous, Europe, and hovering over all, the black wings of Islamic fundamentalism".


We should all be ashamed of what we foster....and the shite we talk of human rights and equality.....welcome to the real world.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 04:06 PM

Whether or not I agree with you, Ake, I do have one question.

What should the world do if TMWATNs wins and begin to execute the rebels forces?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 04:11 PM

Ake-

So lest I misunderstand you, do you have any criticism left for Col Gadaffi?

I may have missed some of his good points in the last 40 years.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 05:25 PM

Ehmm Ake, the capitalist system as failed many times, sometimes a damn sight worse than it's present woes, but guess what? It is a resilient, flexible and adaptable system that is not shackled to a whole load of political bullshit, so it keeps bouncing back - Same could not be said for the alternative Marxist Communist Socialist systems that always kept falling flat on their backsides but which never ever recover and get back up again.

Attempts to "implant western style democracy"? Where? Afghanistan was a democracy (had been since about 1929) before the Communist PDPA and the Soviet 40th Army completely screwed the place up. Iraq was given a completely free hand to establish its own assemblies and write their own constitution. In what way are "WE" (The big bad west) forcing anything on the people of Libya? None as far as I can see.

In the post you were responding to I was predicting not promoting anything, I was asked a direct question and I answered it, novel sort of a concept for most around here I know.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 03:50 AM

Cynicism Teribus?......How's this?
1: It was extremely important that France, Qatar and now Italy have officially recognised the rebel ruling council as the "Government of Libya". That semantically overcomes the accusation about interfering in a civil war and bi-lateral agreements can be made between those "Governments".

So we are to adopt insurgents and recognise them as the official govt, to undermine any regime we dont happen to like/agree with?
Very "democratic"!......Could this also be applied to "the Taliban"?
Sunni/Shia insurgents in Iraq?.... The IRA?....the list is endless.

As you appear to be doing a bit of uncharacteristic wriggling, maybe I can be allowed one little wriggle.
I was not advocating a socialist insurgency....just providing a debating point. Capitalism survives by searching out other resources and people to exploit, when a society becomes unsustainable.
We have just run out of options......I dont think it will be long before we see much civil unrest, and the democratic mask will surely slip.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 08:25 AM

Ake-

You evidently didn't notice my question above:

So lest I misunderstand you, do you have any criticism left for Col Gadaffi?

I may have missed some of his good points in the last 40 years.


Or is it irrelevant to this discussion?

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 12:00 PM

I think it is a little irrelevant Charley.....as far as I am concerned, but others may wish to respond to that line.
I didn't mean to be discourteous in not answering....I just dont know if he is guilty of the crimes which he is supposed to have committed.

I do know that there is a huge question mark over the Lockerbie attrocity and in all likelyhood Gadaffi was not involved.

Just as a matter of interest, I was travelling to a greyhound track on the M6 not far from Lockerbie that night.
Our party heard the news on BBC radio and turned back.

I am quite impressed by the way Gadaffi has treated his people regarding Health and education compared to other leaders in that area, but if I had been a young Libyan, full of youthful protest, I might well have been amongst the insurgents.

I joined the Communist party at seventeen in protest, in the days when it meant the loss of your house and your job and I'm still a "believer" to a certain extent tho' I can now see the down side.

I dont believe we have any chance of living fulfilled lives under "liberal democracy" The whole thing is a circus.....a fantasy and a dangerous one at that.

The promotion of "democracy" now seems to be one of the main causes of death and destruction on the planet.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 12:20 PM

"So we are to adopt insurgents and recognise them as the official govt, to undermine any regime we dont happen to like/agree with?
Very "democratic"!......Could this also be applied to "the Taliban"?
Sunni/Shia insurgents in Iraq?.... The IRA?....the list is endless."


Yep that about covers it.

By the way it WAS APPLIED to the Taliban only in that instance they were playing the role Gaddafi is currently playing in Libya today.

It was applied in Iraq against the insurgents and foreign jihadi fighters "Sunni Awakening"

Talking about lauding "Democracy" Akenaton you old Commie You!!

Tell me when Gaddafi, or the Taliban for that matter ever stood for election?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 01:38 PM

Elections in themselves are no guarantee of achieving a genuine democracy. But they're a start... ;-)

I think our present elections in the USA, Canada, and the UK are largely a sham, a charade, and the reason I think that is that no matter which party gets elected you end up with substantially the same policies being enacted once they're in office. (there are trivial differences...but only trivial ones, in my opinion)

I think that's happening because all the (larger) parties have ended up being bought out by the financial elite, therefore they serve that financial elite, not the public who elects them.

And there's absolutely nothing the general public can do about it as things presently stand, because if all the major political parties tacitly serve the same entrenched special interests, then your vote is rendered meaningless.

Nevertheless....it's still a bit better than being ruled by a single autocratic dictator-for-life such as Mr Gadhaffi. ;-) Just thought I'd better mention that before anyone goes off the deep end and assumes I am saying something I'm not.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 01:51 PM

Let me add further emphasis to that...

It's still QUITE a bit better than being ruled by a single autocratic dictator-for-life such as Mr Gadhaffi.

However, I think what really has secured our civil rights and our generally peaceable societies in the English-speaking world is simply the long established social traditions those societies have been built upon, and which we are all accustomed to. We grow up with those traditions which include such rights as free speech, freedom of assembly, due process of law, and so on. That bulwark of tradition tends to maintain itself, and that is mainly what has protected us against the establishment of a violent dictatorship.

I don't think our fractious and divisive political parties have been of much assistance in maintaining our freedoms...although there is one good thing about them: they each serve as a watchdog on what the other is doing, and that's not the case in a single party state.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 05:03 PM

"Elections in themselves are no guarantee of achieving a genuine democracy. But they're a start"

And a damn sight better guarantee than you get from some person or some group that gains power by force of arms.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 08:45 PM

I would say that's generally correct.

The American revolutionaries siezed power by force of arms...and some of them wanted to crown George Washington as their first king! To Washington's everlasting credit, he did not take them up on that offer, and the revolution resulted in a representative government instead.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 10:40 PM

I did take us 20 years or so to work out the kinks in the model. Sometimes a George Washington or a Nelson Mandela is essential to the mix.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 10:59 PM

Ran across an interesting thesis on the topic:    author said that Chavez is a bosom buddy of Gadhafi:    a big reason being that he admires him for taking power in a coup, not an election.

Supposedly Chavez wishes he himself had done so.

In many ways, they are in fact birds of a feather.

Chavez does not appear so vicious--yet.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 11:14 PM

OK, Ake.

"Education" in Libya is a plus?

Only if your taste runs to no dissent--on pain of death.   Starting a political party is a capital offense.

And selective ignorance--teaching English and French, for instance, is banned.

But perhaps you think the masses don't need that anyway.


Just why do you think the rebels are heaviiy populated by intellectuals--and dissident military officers.?




Even Gadhafi's "heir apparent" has recognized the need for reform for quite a while.


Which is a big reason he is suspect among the real hard-core Gadhafi supporters==those who aren't just foreign mercenaries.

And a serious obstacle to his taking over smoothly if Gadhafi should leave the scene suddenly.

Which we should be encouraging.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 01:17 AM

I've known Ake for a good five or six years, and while we have occasional disagreements, he remains pretty much a pacifist and he's often been right that the West's motivations have been absolutely wrong. The invasion of Iraq for example--he spoke against that in 2003 while I was still buying into the propaganda as popped out by Cheney, Rumsfeld and that idiot that served two terms while being elected only once.

My hero said the following: "There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."

I expect Ake split a gut when he heard that. He was right, imo, that time. Imo, he's wrong this time, but in the words of Paul Newman in the movie "Hombre", that's to find out.

Trust things are good, Ake.

BM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 03:58 AM

Cuba under Fidel is a country that has sustained itself against all the odds for fifty years.
We may have more material posessions than the cuban people, but I;m sure they are healthier,better educated.....and happier...in the real sense of the word.

Fidel was no "liberal", he was as hard as iron when he needed to be, to fight off capitalist insurrection.....but I am quite sure there is not a better loved leader anywhere in the world.

He is an example of a model which can work any where if the leader is true to his people.....and most importantly at this time, a model which is sustainable in a world of shrinking resources.

We must all realise that the "good times" in capitalist terms are gone forever, despite what Teribus exhorts us to believe.


Just as a personal footnote, this winter has been a dark an gloomy time Chez Ake, with family health matters to deal with.
Brucie....your words were as a ray of sunlight through to dark, you have been a good friend, there are very few with a heart so kind.
Many thanks.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 10:38 AM

Cubans "healthier, happier...."

Not the ones in prison for imagined crimes against the regime.

And if the Cuban people are in such great shape, it sure is a mystery why so many have been so desperate to leave this socialist paradise--and some have even drowned in trying to do so.


Nor, as i said--, returning to the topic--, are quite a few Libyans overjoyed with their regime--quite a few seem to be willing to die opposing it.   Another mystery, I suppose--at least to those with ideological blinders on tight.



But I do hope things improve at your house, Ake.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 10:51 AM

And one also should consider the question of how much personal wealth that Gadhafi has managed to wring out of his economy in the past decades, and how this correlates with anyone's model of a socialist society. I don't think Libya scores very high on that test.

For years I was delighted to read about Tanzania's experiment with "African Socialism." They've still managed to avoid civil wars and wars with their neighbors and there doesn't seem to be one family reaping the lion's share of the economy. But Tanzania's economy is still marginal by most measurements. Still, it's done better than many more richly endowed African nations.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 11:31 AM

"Cuba under Fidel is a country that has sustained itself against all the odds for fifty years."

Well for the most part subsidised to the hilt by the USSR whilst practicing that favoured old communist art commonly known throughout the free world as "State Oppression".

"Fidel was no "liberal", he was as hard as iron when he needed to be, to fight off capitalist insurrection.....but I am quite sure there is not a better loved leader anywhere in the world."

"better loved" you have got to be joking!! "better loved" indeed - in a pigs ear.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 12:52 PM

Getting back to Libya. Evidently the NATO air strikes that the Rebels have been calling for have resulted in another incident in which Rebel fighters were injured or killed (from Al Jazeera):

"A NATO air attack has hit a Libyan rebel position near the eastern oil town of Brega, killing at least five fighters, according to rebel fighters and a hospital worker.

Thursday's attack also left at least 10 others wounded, witnesses and correspondents of the AFP news agency said.

Medical workers carried uniforms soaked in blood from one of hospital rooms. And some rebel fighters were weeping on their knees in the corridor.

It was the second time in less than a week that rebels blamed NATO for bombing their comrades by mistake. Thirteen died in an air raid not far from the same spot on Saturday.

A Reuters news agency reporter saw bloodstained stretchers being brought out of the hospital in Ajdabiya, where those wounded in the attack were being treated.

Ajdabiya lies about 80km from Brega."

"We were standing by our tanks and NATO fired two rockets at us," said one, Salem Mislat. "NATO are liars. They are siding with Gaddafi."

Such incidents will unfortunately be unavoidable as Gadhafi troops position more of their tanks and other heavy firepower within civilian areas. The civil war will only get more brutal.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 04:01 PM

I didn't realise NATO was engaged in a "civil war"

I take it that it would be quite alright if we were slaughtering young men under the control of Col. Gadaffi?

What right do we have to support one side in a "civil war"?
How do we know how many inhabitants of Libya support the Col, or how many support the insurgents?
Why do we not tell the truth about our military actions, do these people think we are totally stupid?

Gadaffi's regime may be harsh, but he appears to provide for his people better than most other states in the area.

He is also no more of a terrorist than Western leaders.....as I said earlier we all practice terrorism.
The targeting of Col. Gadaffi's troops is terrorism, designed to make his supporters change sides and force him out of power.

The really sick part is that it is perpetrated by people who will never go anywhere near Libya....have no interest in Libya or its people.....who have only self interest at heart.

I find this whole episode almost identical to the destruction of Iraq.....how can we forget so quickly the final excuse for our involvement in the deaths of a million men women and children

"It's because Saddam/Gadaffi is a BAD MAN"......Idiots!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 04:20 PM

Having seen Cuba, and Mexico, and Trinidad, I have to say that I think the Cubans have a far better society in most respects, and that their people are better off for it. None of those societies are perfect, they all have notable problems, and a great many people in ALL of them would like to get to North America for a great variety of personal reasons...but the Cubans, in my opinion, have by far the best society of the three. All of Latin America tries to "escape" to the southern USA, and for very similar reasons. Not just the Cubans. Yet critics of Cuba seem to conveniently forget that when they bring up the matter of Cubans who drown trying to reach Florida. Why does this set Cuba apart in any way? Hell, if the Mexicans or the Brazilians or the Guatemalans or the Costa Ricans, or any other Latin Americans were living such a short distance across that narrow strait from Florida, they'd be doing the same damn thing...without Cuban socialism to be quoted as a dire reason for why they are doing it.

And if you don't agree me...fine. (shrug) Who really cares anyway?   I'm just stating my opinion, based on my own direct experience and observation.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 04:30 PM

Charley.....do you really think Gadaffi's men should play fair and sit out in the desert waiting for some invisible assassin to press a button and blow them all to pieces?

Please try to understand what we are getting involved in.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 06:43 PM

1: NATO is NOT involved in supporting any one side in a "civil war". NATO's involvement in what is happening in Libya concerns protection of civilians and maintaining a "No-Fly Zone". Recently NATO has shown that it will engage and destroy anyone attempting to interfere with that mission irrespective of which side they are on.

2: "I take it that it would be quite alright if we were slaughtering young men under the control of Col. Gadaffi?"

Most certainly if they are attacking civilian targets or centres of population, or attempting to interfere with the enforcement of the "No-Fly Zone".

3: "How do we know how many inhabitants of Libya support the Col, or how many support the insurgents?"

Basically we don't, although it cannot be that many as the "good" Colonel and the "Father of the Revolution" has seen fit to hire and arm mercenary forces to fire on and kill his own people (Psst Ake I bet those killed and maimed don't love him)

4: "Why do we not tell the truth about our military actions, do these people think we are totally stupid?"

Well obviously you and I have been reading completely different accounts. According to you and others here "WE" supposedly are at war with Libya ("WE" of course are not) UNSCR 1973 tells you all that there is to be told. If you believe what MSM tells you then you are totally stupid.

5 "Gadaffi's regime may be harsh, but he appears to provide for his people better than most other states in the area."

Bullshit, but there again I forget you yearn for oppressive authoritarian regimes that exercise total control over the general population. Obviously a large proportion of the citizens of Libya feel differently to the extent that they are prepared to risk their lives to alter the state of things inside their country.

6: "The targeting of Col. Gadaffi's troops is terrorism, designed to make his supporters change sides and force him out of power."

If Colonel Gaddafi's troops and hired mercenaries are targeting and killing Libyan civilians then they are legitimate targets in accordance with the terms of UNSCR 1973. If actions taken by UN forces causes defections all well and good. If actions taken by UN forces causes Gaddafi to relinquish power then all well and good.

7: "I find this whole episode almost identical to the destruction of Iraq.....how can we forget so quickly the final excuse for our involvement in the deaths of a million men women and children"

Has Iraq been destroyed? I do not think so. Once again the "mythical million dead" is thrown into the discussion. Akenaton if you wish to claim that one million people have died in Iraq due to actions taken since March 2003 then prove it - don't quote "ESTIMATES FROM BATCH SAMPLED STUDIES" the Iraqi authorities put the numbe at around 150,000

By the bye "It's NOT because gaddafi's a bad man" It's because troops under Gaddafi's orders started gunning down his own people.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 09:56 PM

"my own direct experience".    Right.    Experience of Brazil, Costa Rica, etc. being geographically situated where Cuba is now.


Sorry, that's more absurd speculation, based on nothing but the poster's guess, just possibly influenced slightly by ideological blinders.

Let's start living in the real world.

Historically there has been huge migration to the US from Cuba, usually harshly opposed by Castro.

And by the way, let's actually return to the topic--which is not Cuba.   I will start a thread for Cuba, in hopes that this blind alley will disappear from this thread.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 10:09 PM

It will end right now, Ron, because I have no intention of wasting my time tonight fighting with you about politics.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 03:25 AM

Teribus......I could explain for the hundredth time how we become enslaved by the capitalist system, just as much as by any dictatorship, or totalitarian regime, but no one is listening.

The truth is that humanity is a species addicted to gambling....and most of us love to play the lottery.....we convince ourselves that we can be the guy who wins the millions.....conveniently forgetting the millions who lose their £.

I would be much more interested in your views on the future of capitalism in the UK or US, given the situation we find ourselves in financially.

Now that we are owned by China and India, how long do you think it will be before we are all herded off to the abattoir, with "unsustainable" branded on our arses.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 08:15 AM

"I would be much more interested in your views on the future of capitalism in the UK or US, given the situation we find ourselves in financially.

Now that we are owned by China and India, how long do you think it will be before we are all herded off to the abattoir, with "unsustainable" branded on our arses."


Bit off topic here aren't we?

What situation do we find ourselves in, that we haven't been in many times before? Only difference is that we can work our way out of trouble your bloody idiotic central Government controlled marxist regimes couldn't.

"Now that we are owned by China and India"

Well of course we are not "owned by China, India" or anybody else, the USA most certainly isn't. You obviously have a very simple approach and outlook when it comes to money and debt. Do not look at GDP, GNP and compare that to what the country owes without taking into account what the OWNS.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 08:32 AM

Ake-

"do you really think Gadaffi's men should play fair and sit out in the desert waiting for some invisible assassin to press a button and blow them all to pieces?"

No, I was merely pointing out that now the job of destroying more of Gadhafi's heavy armament from the air is made more difficult to achieve given the fluid battle-line and similarity of fighting assets. And it's an open question whether NATO has a mandate to even provide close air support for a Rebel advance, assuming they had the communications needed to coordinate it. I suppose, at some point soon special forces embedded with the Rebels will provide that function. How to wage war is a learning process. So is waging peace.

France does appear to be now assuming more of a leadership role now within NATO, filling in for the withdrawn US assets. They certainly have a more direct interest in maintaining a supply of oil to their country from Libya than we do.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 10:44 PM

"whether NATO has a mandate..."

Oh brother, if we (and especially NATO) are determined to agonize about that, that clinches it:
guaranteed stalemate--until the rebels get disgusted and give up.

Either it is worth toppling Gadhafi or it is not.

And if it isn't, just why did the West say over and over that it was?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 11:04 PM

Ron-

Yes, that's the problem.

There are some wonderful Rebel spokespeople out there, and some well-intentioned NATO interveners as well, and they're all trying to figure out how to work with whatever else is out there to send Kadhafi off to Venezuela.

It's a little late to send Teddy Roosevelt in to lead the charge. Hillary might be up to it but Obama has a cooler head.

Hopefully somebody will get tired of the debate and just do it.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 11:53 PM

Gentlemen, lest we get carried away with our own rhetoric, NATO's mission is NOT to help the rebels. It's mission is to help protect civilians.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 12:30 AM

Sorry, Bruce.   If NATO does nothing but "protect civilians" the conflict will never end--until the rebels give up.

Without more than the "protect civilians" mandate, the rebels are doomed.

If we accept that, then fine.

But their blood will be on our hands, just as much as when we encouraged rebels in 1991 in Iraq, then stood back and watched them slaughtered.

And after all, if they are in fact rebelling, they are no longer "civilians".

That's why that formulation is a disaster--unless we are willing to see Gadhafi resume his iron rule.

Which I don't think we should.

Alea jacta est.   And we should realize that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,99
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 11:38 AM

Then the UN and then Nato will have to amend the present ROE, Ron. I agree with you that TMWATN has to go.

The following is from April 6:

Libya targeted civilian protesters - war crimes court

Luis Moreno Ocampo is investigating Col Gaddafi, his sons and close aides

The chief prosecutor said the plans had been a reaction to street protests that led to the fall of the Tunisian regime.

Luis Moreno Ocampo is expected to request arrest warrants for Col Muammar Gaddafi, his sons and close aides.

Nato has vowed to do all it can to protect civilians after rebels accused it of failing to protect Misrata city.

"Misrata is our number one priority," Nato deputy spokeswoman Carmen Romero told the AFP news agency on Wednesday.

She added that alliance warplanes had hit Col Gaddafi's military assets around Libya's third largest city on Monday.

"We have a clear mandate and we will do everything to protect the civilians of Misrata," Ms Romero said, referring to the UN resolution that permits "all necessary measures" to defend Libya's population.

'Nothing left'

The rebels have been pushed eastward, beyond the oil town of Brega
On Tuesday, rebel commander Gen Abdul Fattah Younis complained that bureaucracy was causing Nato to take hours to respond to calls for air strikes.

"[Nato] is letting the people of Misrata die every day," he told reporters in the de facto rebel capital Benghazi. "If Nato should wait another week, there will be no more Misrata."

In The Hague on Tuesday, Mr Moreno-Ocampo said: "We have evidence that after the Tunisia and Egypt conflicts in January, people in the regime were planning how to control demonstrations inside Libya.

"The planning at the beginning was to use tear gas and [if that failed to work]... shooting," he told Reuters.

Doctors said last week that at least 200 people had been killed there since the uprising began on 17 February - a figure likely to have risen in recent days.

Nato says international air strikes have reduced Col Gaddafi's military capabilities by nearly a third, but his forces have deliberately moved weaponry into civilian areas to hamper air strikes.

A Nato-led coalition mandated by the UN to protect civilians is enforcing a no-fly zone and attacking ground targets. It accuses Gaddafi forces of sheltering weapons in civilian areas.


The oil tanker is a welcome sight for Libyan rebels
Rebel forces in the east of the country have retreated after heavy bombardment from Col Gaddafi's army, the BBC's Wyre Davies says from the front line, near the town of Ajdabiya.

In the past 24 hours, heavy and accurate shelling from Gaddafi troops has pushed the disorganised and poorly-equipped rebel army back to the fringes of the town, our correspondent adds.

It is a clear indication that without the protective cover of Nato air strikes, they would find it almost impossible to take the next town of Brega, never mind marching on Tripoli and removing Col Gaddafi from power, he adds.

In a boost to the rebels on Tuesday, a tanker arrived at the eastern port of Tobruk to pick up the first consignment of oil to be exported from the rebel-held region.

The Greek-owned ship is capable of carrying more than $100m (£61m) worth of oil.

Since the revolt against Col Gaddafi's rule began nearly two months ago, exports of Libya's main commodity have collapsed, driving up the price of oil to a two-and-a-half year high.

Also on Tuesday, the Gaddafi government made senior diplomat Abdelati Obeidi its new foreign minister, replacing Moussa Koussa, who sought refuge on the UK last week.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 11:45 AM

Guest 99-

Thanks for the update.

How are you related to Guest 999? Is there also a Guest 9?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 04:38 AM

A Nato spokesman has said, "It is our mission to protect ALL civilians in Libya". I take it that these words mean ....including civilians who support Col. Gadaffi.

This in response to questions over the destruction of insurgent tanks(by mistake) and the deaths of fourteen insurgents.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 04:41 AM

Do the supporters of the insurgency here, believe that the pro Gadaffi civilians have as much right to Nato protection as those who support the the insurgency......for whatever reason?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,giovanni
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 04:55 AM

This one really is about oil.

In the early 70's Libya doubled the price of oil taken by the British and US oil extractors. At the same time, they took a 51% stake in all oilfield developments. The US in particular have never forgiven them for this and have sought to oust the regime ever since.

Qaddafi set up the Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya on a strictly Islamic basis. UK and US don't care for the way Islamist states work, so haven't forgiven them for that either.

Two significant smearings of Libya have happened; the French airliner downed by a bomb loaded in Congo, and Locherbie. The bomb in Congo was loaded in Brazzaville by a Congolese anti-government rebel. Libya had no involvement in Congo, but the French investigators "extracted a confession" (how?) from the Congolese rebel to implicate 6 important Libyans. The Libyans were found guilty in absentia by the Parisian court, extradition having been sensibly refused by Libya. (France had a dispute with Libya at the time over the Chadian issue).

People who know more about Locherbie than I do believe that Iranians were responsible, but the desperation to pin everything on to Libya meant that the guilty verdict was in place probably before the trial started - see Steve Shaw's earlier posts.

Russia will not touch this latest UN move hence only NATO (UK, US and France, surprise surprise) are involved - and just how quick were they to jump in! Russia believes that the problems throughout the Arab world are inspired and supported by Al Qaeda, and are bemused that Britain and America are bombing on their side, are anxious to arm them and commit ground troops.

UK and USA continue to try to show the world that you can get what you want so long as you have enough bombs to drop. UK has encouraged a "special relationship" with the school bully, thus giving him sanction to carry on behaving in his atrocious way. This war is illegal in USA because to go to war requires approval of Congress, which has not been given because it has not been sought. Nor was it when Reagan bombed Libya and killed Qaddafi's daughter (military target?). And why? - in response to some smoke and mirrors paranoia involving Libyan hit squads in the USA which mysteriously never materialised.

Libya's idealistic socialist state will be made to fail and the mob will try to take over. Whoever takes over will first spend Libyan peoples' money on replacing the weaponry that NATO have destroyed.

Does anyone yet know the name of a person, tribe, political or regional affiliation that represents the revolutionaries? Or how many people in Libya support the revolution?
Agreed there will always be those jealous of Western "freedom" (to get access to alcohol, drugs, fast food etc) rather than live according to the Koran - that will never change.

Libya in general and Qaddafi in particular are probably the most widely misunderstood of the Arab countries, which are all widely misunderstood by the West. Libya has lived in relative peace over the last 40 odd years following the bloodless coup in '69, (except for the Chadian war wherein Chad tried to claim back disputed territory on the border. Libya lost heavily to their opponents, Chad, France and, oh look - USA).

USA and their "special relationship" buddy need to start getting real about countries they don't understand and stop trying to impose their own solutions to problems that are none of their business - it hasn't worked in Afghanistan or Iraq, and it won't work in Libya.

Forgive the rant but this imperialist crap really makes me angry.

g


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:00 AM

"imperialist crap".

Drivel.   Leftist tripe. Hope I'm not too subtle.

More details later.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:36 AM

"Libya's idealistic socialist state" Guest giovanni is in fact a kleptocracy set up to enrich Gaddafi and his family Saif's yearly allowance amounts to £170,000,000. Not a thing can be done in Libya without involving the Libyan Investment Fund which is 100% owned by Gaddafi - I guess for a "socialist" that is about as ideal as it gets.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:42 AM

I didn't see it as a rant, g. However, some of your information is wrong.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:45 AM

Not that an ideological warrior, with which Mudcat is graced by an amazing number, should understand this, but I'll try anyway:

"This one is about oil".    That was said about Iraq also. In Iraq's case there may be some truth to the accusation--though I think it was to a large extent GWB's calculation that a short successful war against an obviously evil regime would prove very popular with the US electorate.

Since many of us realized that the Iraq invasion was a trumped-up move--to prevent something totally unproven (WMD)-- many of us Mudcatters opposed it completely. And good old John who wants to beat the "imperialist" drum would say the Iraq invasion was all about oil.    And again I think he is oversimplying--not that leftists ever do such a thing.   Not much. Of course not.

Some of us who opposed the Iraq invasion are in favor of the Libya campaign.

There are clear differences.   To allege a parallel, you would, as I noted earlier, have to posit that half of iraq , including half the military had broken away from Saddam before the first Western bomb fell in 2003.   And that the rebels in Iraq had made many direct appeals to the West to help them against Saddam.   Neither of which was the case.

And as Charlie, I believe, has pointed out earlier:    to say the Libyan invasion is all about oil makes precisely no sense for this reason:   before the attack by Western planes Libya was very happy to sell as much oil to the West as the West wanted.   So there would be no reason to attack Libya to get oil.

Unless you think the West wants to take over Libya.    Which is nothing but a typically stupid Leftist theory, graced by precisely zero evidence.

Again, hope I'm not being too subtle.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:47 AM

"half of Iraq, including half the military,"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:55 AM

Also "Libya's idealistic sociallst state".    If it is idealistic, and benefits the Libyan people as a whole, why do half the Libyans want themselves to topple this idealistic state?

I think "drlvel" is an apt description of the "idealist socialist" theory.

Or is it a proxy war, as alleged by the towering genius Jack Camplin, who wants to tell us about the Sudetenland parallel--but somehow has not found time to come up with any evidence?

Gee, I wonder why not.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:58 AM

"Jack Campin"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 12:42 PM

Latest update from the "front" wherever that is now:

"Rebel defences around Ajdabiya appeared to be failing as Gaddafi's soldiers broke into the heart of the strategic town, 90 miles from Benghazi, and engaged in running street battles after again outmanoeuvring the revolutionaries.

Although western powers continued their air strikes, they did not appear to deter Gaddafi's forces."

Gadhafi's soldiers appear to have outflanked Ajdabiya, attacking it from the south and east. NATO planes were able to destroy 10 or so tanks but that didn't stop the attack. Resistence by the Rebels continues in the town.

Benghazi may itself be attacked next.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:15 PM

The Rebels evidently were successful in chasing Gadhafi's soldiers out of Ajdabiya. I'm surprised.

Meanwhile the Organization of African Unity has had a meeting with Gadhafi in Tripoli and it's said that he has endorsed their "roadmap to a ceasefire" whatever that means. The OAU representatives are flying to Benghazi next, and if they're not shot down, will confer with the Libya Interim Council there.

Oh, and appropriate obscenities to all of the above who feed on such things.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:35 PM

I wouldn't pin much too hope on the AU delegation:

"Nabila Ramdani, a French journalist and Middle East expert, said the situation with regard to Libya had reached not only a military but also a political deadlock.

"It's quite worrying," she told Al Jazeera. "Unfortunately, my view about the African Union is that it will appear as not being a credible group of people to be in a position to broker a deal on behalf of Gaddafi.

"They are a group of dictators themselves and they won't be taken very seriously given that they're from very brutal regimes which are in many ways far worse than the Gaddafi regime."

Ahmad Bani, a rebel spokesman, rejected a negotiated outcome to the conflict.

"There is no other solution than the military solution, because this dictator's language is annihilation, and people who speak this language only understand this language," he told Al Jazeera."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 10:44 PM

"Road to a ceasefire" is exactly what Gadhafi wants---with him or his sons still left in the regime.

Then, when the West OK's this, comes payback on the rebels--which Gadhafi has already promised more than once.    After all, they are 'vermin".    Sounds amazingly like a Goebbels-endorsed film.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,giovanni
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 02:37 AM

Fantastic feedback, just what one expects from Mudcat these days!

I'm neither a leftist nor a socialist, but I am a realist. I may not agree with the way Qaddafi wants Libya to live, but I do understand where he's coming from. He is an idealist and works hard at keeping his principles in place. Too hard by Western standards, but Arab states are not run according to Western standards, and probably can't be. Western intrusion works as well in the 21st century as it did in the Crusades.

Guest999 says some of my information is wrong but doesn't say which, nor why. I would be interested to know - the whole point of discussion should be to share knowledge rather than to try to big yourself up by putting others down.

Which brings me neatly to Ron Davies, who questions my take on the ideology of Libya's socialist state. The answer is that it is idealistic therefore probably not practical - not many socialist states are very successful - but it is the state that Qaddafi's revolution put into words (see Green Book) and tries very hard to maintain. Ron asks why half of the Libyan people oppose it? Answer is that the supposition of half the people being opposed is simply the outpourings of the UK and US propaganda machines - which you are free to believe if you are naive enough. The truth is that nobody knows how many people the rebels represent, nor even who they are. Hence the Russian take on Al-Qaeda.

For Teribus and anybody else who thinks Libya has been worse off under Qaddafi than they were under his predecessor (the Western supported puppet King Idris) - you need to look up the statistics on hospital and school building and compare with the "achievements" of Idris during his 20 odd years of rule.

Qaddafi and his regime may not be everyone's cup of tea but his revolution in '69 was absolutely necessary to stop UK, US and Idris plundering. Plunder may still be going on but Libya is still better off than it was, due to the doubling of the oil price and nationalisation of oilfields in '71ish.

The latest revolution is simply the result of copycat action following Tunisia, Egypt, Bahrain, Yemen and maybe some other states, which supports the Al-Qaeda theory that any unrest is better for them than continued peace. The only difference is that the 3 countries who have been historically opposed to Qaddafi (UK, USA, France) are not bombing those other countries.

g


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 05:59 PM

"For Teribus and anybody else who thinks Libya has been worse off under Qaddafi than they were under his predecessor"

Please show me Guest giovanni anywhere where I have intimated that "I thought that Libya was worse off under Gaddafi" than under King Idris. But please you don't really have to strain yourself, fact is I never said or inferred anything of the sort - so stop putting words into my mouth.

You made reference to "Libya's idealistic socilaist state" and I merely pointed out to you that there is nothing idealistic or socialist about Libya it is run as kleptocracy for the benefit of Gaddafi and those closest to him.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 10:28 PM

I am impressed that Gadhafi's troops are still willing to risk their lives at his orders. Anyone got an explanation for that behavior?

Sure, they may be very well paid but it takes more than that to continue to stay on the offensive as they've been doing.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 10:43 PM

Charley... desertion is punishable by death without trial. A corpoal can deliver such punishment on the battlefield. I could go on but no need.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 12:45 AM

"I am impressed that Gadhafi's troops are still willing to risk their lives at his orders."

What choice do they have Charley? Seen from their perspective:

1: They have much to gain from sticking it out, if victorious Gaddafi will reward those who stood by him well at the expense of those who did not.

2: We have no idea what information they are getting upon which to base their actions or form their intentions.

3: The mercenary elements hired by Gaddafi are being paid enormous sums of money.

4: There have as yet been no real battles, the nearest thing to a battle is being fought in and around Misratah, every other action can best be described as skirmishes, the "war" has been too fluid for anyone to have prepared a true defensive position that has to be attacked and carried.

5: Air power to date has only been used to enforce the "no-fly zone" and prevent heavy weapons being used against civilians and centres of population. I do think that there have been strikes put in against ground troops.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 01:21 AM

Not only are the mercenaries paid well, but they come from some of the poorest countries of Africa. And there's no future at home. I saw a NYT article interviewing some Mali young men, and at the end they asked the writer to put a good word in her article for Gadhafi, so he would be able to stay in power and, they hoped, hire more of them.

And Gadhafi has sponsored all sorts of improvements in those countries--as well as leading the OAS.    You can buy a lot of goodwill with as much oil money as he has.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 02:03 AM

Ron the most effective of Gaddafi's mercenaries are Serbs reputedly on £2,500 per day, many of whom have real combat experience in urban environments and who have no qualms at all about killing civilians.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 02:50 AM

"Guest999 says some of my information is wrong but doesn't say which, nor why. I would be interested to know - the whole point of discussion should be to share knowledge rather than to try to big yourself up by putting others down."

When I have time--likely tomorrow--I will do so. No offense, but when you stated what you did, you simply stated it. Neither did you say "which, nor why."

As to 'big oneself up', that is as arrogant a statement unsupported by fact as I have read in a time. You have but an opinion. As do I.

Tomorrow.

BM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 07:31 AM

You can bet the mercenaries from Mali and Chad don't receive £2,500 per day.

I hadn't run across any articles mentioning the Serb mercenaries.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 08:07 AM

This article tells of how African migrants are being abducted and forced to fight for Gaddafi.

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/features/2011/04/20114818291705627.html


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 08:29 AM

You don't need 2,500 pounds a day to consider a job under Gadhafi a good deal if you're a Mali young man.    I get the impression that any job Gadhafi will pay you for is considered a big step up---and you can bet he does pay well on Mali standards.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 10:03 AM

I rather suspect that "£2,500 per day" was dreamed up by some PR merchant. I'm sure the mercenaries are paid pretty well, as mercenaries generally are. Here's a page I found speculating about this kind of thing, and quoting some figures for comparison.

But there's clear no evidence I've seen that Gaddafi is particularly dependent on the mercenaries he employs, or that the Libyan troops are particularly liable to favour the opposition, as was the case in Egypt.

It maybe that the mass of Libyans in Tripoli are hoping for the rebellion to succeed, but I haven't seen any evidence for that. That doesn't mean Gaddafi is a nice man or a good ruler, but all too often pretty nasty and incompetent rulers have a lot of popular support. They even win elections.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 04:35 PM

Remember, there are no smart bombs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 03:14 AM

Just been watching footage of UN planes being guided in on huge buildings somewhere in Libya and completely obliterating them with a couple of missiles from long distance.
Now, even if these buildings are military premises, they must contain large numbers of civilian workers......or low level military guys just doing their jobs.

Considering the fact that we are not "at war" with Libya, how can we say that we are there only to protect civilians?

It appears that the truth is about to "come out"
That what we are really there for, is to effect "regime change" regardless of the wishes of the majority of vthe Libyan people.

Col Gadaffi must be having a wry smile at claims of the virtue of "Western democracy".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 07:43 AM

Ake-

effect "regime change" regardless of the wishes of the majority of the Libyan people.

If wishes were fishes we'd all be in a stew!

So, you propose a national referendum before any attempt at regime change? When the last time that was done in England, or the States for that matter?

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 08:31 AM

Ake--

And how much of a level playing field do you think your referendum would have with Gadhafi still with about $6 billion in Libya?

Early in this crisis his folks went around handing out the equivalent of $400 to every family in Tripoli.    If you don't think this sort of thing would play a role in your referendum, just how naive are you?

And through his petrodollars he has tried to buy the goodwill of some very powerful players in Africa. For instance: "In March 2008 the Libyan leader visited Uganda amid huge fanfare to open a multi-billion dollar mosque, famed to be the second largest in Africa with a capacity to accommodate 15,000 worshippers.   Of course, he had financed its construction."

Source:   AllAfrica. com.

If you don't think this would influence many ordinary Moslems in his favor, you need to think again.

Perhaps you've heard the term:   ":Money talks".   If not, you should familiarize yourself with it.






However, on another front, there appear to be a few good developments in the Libya story.   The provisional government appears to be gaining legitimacy.

Most of a delegation of the African Union visited Benghazi to try to broker a truce.   This in itself helps the provisional government attain legitimacy.


Of course the rebels turned it down, since Gadhafi or his sons would have remained part of the regime.   It seems folks may have learned something since the conservatives in Germany included Hitler as part of the the government, thinking, despite his huge power base outside the government, that they could control him.

As a rebel spokesman put it, Gadhafi is "sending the AU to negotiate with the rats."

A Western diplomat in Benghazi said of the rebels' handling of the AU visit: "I'm impressed."

The more Western diplomats are impressed, the more likely NATO will stay the course--and hopefully give more direct military aid--everything short of ground troops.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 08:51 AM

There's no question in my mind that the US needs to get more involved again.   US forces are only involved in support these days--and the rebels say that means a huge change in the results.   Without more US participation, a stalemate could easily result--which means in the long--or short--run--that Gadhafi wins.    With well-known consequences for "rats".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 12:15 PM

A ceasefire, on the basis proposed by the African Union, conditional on a prompt election process, with safeguards and international monitors, seems the best option for getting out of this mess.

The rebels are never likely to win this civil war, and even if the Nato involvement steps up even further, and in effect they take over the fighting in breach of the UN mandate, the prospects don't look too promising for a rapid victory.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 12:36 PM

Ron seems to be saying that, even if the majority of Libyans would wish Gaddafi to stay in power, their wishes should be overruled, in favour of the wishes of a Libyan minority, and of outside governments.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 01:14 PM

It's been a long time since I've been romantically enamored with Rebel causes.

I remember well the heroic rebels in Angola fighting the Portuguese colonialists, and after finally winning, fighting each other for another 20 years. MPLA, I believe, finally won it all.

Then there were the Eritrean rebels fighting the oppressive Ethiopians under Mingistu's regime, and after they won their freedom they helped the Tigrian rebels sweep Mingistu out of power. Then when they had nothing better to do the Eriteans attacked Ethiopia and squandered what remained of their resources and young men.

The rebels in Libya may be no better or worse than other rebel movements. Lord knows they don't appear to be well organized. But given my opinion of the record of the Gadhafi regime for the last 40 years, I wish them well.

I don't think there will be any shortcuts to "the march on Tripoli." Now they really need to set up a major defensive line (if one can do that in the desert), get better organized, recruit and train more soldiers, and get resupplied with appropriate arms.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 01:27 PM

"A ceasefire, on the basis proposed by the African Union, conditional on a prompt election process, with safeguards and international monitors, seems the best option"

Awwww bless you Kevin, how are things in Trumpton these days.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 01:28 PM

Or was it Camberwick Green - 400 Up


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 02:13 PM

You left out Chigley...

Given that enforced regime change imposed by external forces would be illegal, there isn't really a better alternative, if that one is on the table.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 04:04 PM

I'm surprised Teribus, that you appear to be supporting the insurgency here yet were totally against it in Iraq.

I'm sure if the peasants revolted again in the UK, under the weight of Tory attacks on the poorest in society,you would be one of the first to want them shot down?

Does the rule of law apply only in this sceptred isle?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 04:18 PM

The fact of the matter is that we are interfering in the affairs of another sovereign country under the guise of protecting one section of the civilian population.......or do you think that when the insurgent tanks start shelling Tripoli we will start incinerating them?

This adventure appears to be over a multi billion oil contract which is on the table between BP and the Lybian government.

Of course if Colonel Gadaffi survives, he will quite rightly wipe his arse with said contract.

We are there to make sure Colonel Gadaffi does not survive, just like Iraq.

We never ever learn.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 05:14 PM

1: "I'm surprised Teribus, that you appear to be supporting the insurgency here yet were totally against it in Iraq." - akenaton

Good parallel that. Only thing is your timing is off. The parallel to Iraq with the current insurgency in Libya is that the insurgency in Libya today is identical to the Shia uprising in Southern Iraq in 1991 when the USA did everything to encourage the uprising but did nothing to physically help. At the time I was fully behind that uprising as well - no conflict at all.

The Kurds in the North were luckier they had a border with a NATO country Turkey that allowed British Royal Marines of 45 Commando to enter Iraq and place themselves between the Kurds and SAddam Hussein's Army, otherwise without that that physical presence the Kurds would have again died in their tens of thousands.

2: "The fact of the matter is that we are interfering in the affairs of another sovereign country under the guise of protecting one section of the civilian population"

Now which section of the population is it that we are protecting? So far the only section that has been protected has been the civilian population that the forces of Muammar Gaddafi have been attacking. The "Rebels" have yet to attack any civilians and if they do I am sure that steps will be taken to stop them.

3: "This adventure appears to be over a multi billion oil contract which is on the table between BP and the Libyan government."

Your timing is off again akenaton the contract had already been agreed between Gaddafi and BP before this little lot flared up.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 09:05 PM

Kevin, how long have you had this devotion to mass-murdering tyrants?

Is this a recent development?

It appears you'd be just fine with whatever treatment Gadhafi thought appropriate for the "rats".

Or will your election team remain in Libya forever to prevent Gadhafi's revenge?   Sorry, that's not really very practical.

Have you ever heard of the film "Jud Suess"?   You might want to read about it--and its uses.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 09:09 PM

Also try "Der ewige Jude", especially the opening.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 09:41 AM

"Devotion to mass-murdering tyrants" - I haven't said anything said to justify that. He's a standard enough brutal ruler, probably no worse than many others whom we have also supplied with arms and friendship over the years, but quite bad enough. I'd be happy to see the back of him - but the point is, that's a matter for the people of Libya, and I haven't seen any evidence that they share my unfavourable views of the man and his regime.

I'd think it quite likely that a properly monitored election might get rid of Gaddafi, but I wouldn't bet on it. However I don't think it makes too much sense to put his departure in advance of that as a non-negotiable condition for a ceasefire, in a civil war of which the outcome is at very best extremely uncertain, and very possibly a lot worse than that. Offering a ceasefire on condition of properly monitored elections makes sense if only as a negotiating ploy.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 12:31 AM

Tell me Kevin what post in the "Government" of Libya does Muammar Gadafi hold - What is his title? (He, himself says that he has none) When was the last time his name appeared on ANY ballot paper?

As long as Gaddafi is there, there can be no free and fair elections in Libya, irrespective of how many international observers and degree of oversight you put in place. Once the monitors leave that is when the blood-letting commences. If you want an example Kevin take a look at Zimbabwe.

The "Rebels" are perfectly correct in their demands Gaddafi must go - The Palestinians should have insisted on the same with regard to Yasser Arafat in 1971.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 11:41 AM

Ah..... but what the fuck has it to do with a bankrupt second rate nation like ours.......We punish the poorest for the crimes of the capitalist system, yet find the money to slaughter young men who are just doing their job being soldiers.

They never see us, just a rumble of aircraft engines far out of range.....like shooting fish in a barrel really ....not really war at all, never getting our hands bloody....never even having to engage our brains.....just like a video game played with real flesh and blood.....barbecued!

You say the insurgents are correct, but you have no more idea what their real agenda is than I have.
Even the Americans have said they believe there are links to Islamic fundamentalism and I think that is more than likely.
Of course there will be young people who are fooled by the facade of "Western style democracy", but the Mullahs will soon decapitate these boys when the time comes.....at the moment they must pay lip service to "democracy" to obtain the slaughtering capacity of the three most warmongering nations in the world.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 12:11 PM

It may be perfectly reasonable for the rebels/insurgents/dissidents to have the overthrowal of Gaddafi as an objective in making war, but that's different from making it a pre-condition for a ceasefire, rather than a fair election which enables the people of Libya to get rid of him, if that is what they want.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 03:57 PM

View from the Guardian
Its all about oil.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 07:29 AM

It is being reported that Gaddafi's forces are using cluster bombs in civilian areas in Misurata.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/04/201141591544963774.html


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 09:03 AM

Sorry , Kevin that I was so aggressive in my last post.    But you must imagine that because in your world of sweetness and light everybody plays by Marquess of Queensberry rules, that tyrants will also. Specifically that Gadhafi will. I'm afraid this is a bit naive.

First of all, he may well (with about $6 billiion still in Libya), have enough to buy the election.

Secondly, consider his track record. He has a long history of sending assassination squads all over the world to dispose of dissidents.   What makes you think he would let dissidents still in Libya survive?

And look at what else his wonderful family has done to show their tolerance and good intentions.

Item:    When Hannibal Gadhafi, a son, was arrested by Swiss police in 2009 for battery, what was Gadhafi's reaction?    At the G-8 summit he publicly called for the dissolution of Switzerland, its territory to be divided between France, Italy and Germany. (Time 25 Sept 2009)

In August 2009, Hannibal Gadhafi stated that if he had a nuclear bomb: "I would wipe Switzerland off the map".

As late as 2004, Gadhafi still had bounties on critics, including $1 million for Ashur Shamis, a Libyan-British journalist (Guardian 28 Mar 2004).


There was a warming of relations between Gadhafi and the West later, but with the recent moves by the West against him, it seems more than a bit likely, to say the least, that he will return to 2004-style attitudes.

He also, among other things, has said that HIV is a "peaceful virus, not an aggressive virus"


Neither he nor any member of his family can be trusted--and most , including the Brother Leader himself, do not appear to be playing with a full deck.



Furthermore, suppose your election were held and Gadhafi was considered to have won fair and square according to your election observers.

Then what?    I'm sure you'd insist on unfreezing the $50 billion or so now frozen. (And of course there would be new oil money coming in.)

And what do you think he'd do with the money?    Devote it to the welfare of his citizens?

Consider again his track record.   He would have no incentive to curry favor with the West. In the past he has sought several times to get nuclear weapons.   And he would have the incentive--and money--to do so.

Introducing yet another element of tension into the Mideast.    And with his well-known views on Israel, Israel would probably feel compelled to take out his nuclear sites--before it became impossible to do so.

No, for a huge list of reasons, he and his family cannot play any role in any future Libyan government.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 12:25 PM

The trouble is, the logic of Ron's position is invasion and occupation, in the expectation that a free election might go the wrong way. There's an analogy with the position summed up by Eisenhaower in relation to the reason elections could not be held in Vietnam "80 per cent of the population would have voted for the Communist Ho Chi Minh".

And that bit of realpolitick didn't work out too well.

And invasion and occupation, even if successful, would have to be done on the same illegal basis as in Iraq. Not an encouraging precedent either.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 05:54 PM

You all seem to ignore the RTP norm, I guess civilian lives are expendable....too bad that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 08:10 AM

I just heard someone from the MoD on BBC Radio Devon News saying that it's all become very tricky in Libya and now 'they've got themselves into a difficult situation which is not going to be easy to get out of'

Well, well, who'd a thought it, eh?

Did they honestly think he was just going to pack his TinyTim bag and various hat boxes and tiptoe through the tulips to another place? Did they seriously think that a totally untrained crowd of, so often, hysterical men would be able to defeat a tyrant such as Gadaffi, when his army was still loyal to him?

This already is a major disaster and it's going to get one helluva lot worse, probably end up involving other countries too as The Jihad Camel starts its lonesome trek into the hot desert sun...picking up many followers in its noonday shadow.

Oh, brother, have we stirred up a scarab's nest with our continuous Western Arrogance.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 01:30 PM

It's great to have you back, Kevin, after your serious medical issues.   And I understand that you do not want to have your position on this thread misrepresented.

However for some reason you seem to think it's just fine to misrepresent mine--"Invasion". .

If you would actually take the time to read the thread, instead of making false comparisons (Vietnam, Iraq) you would find that I have clearly differentiated between the trumped-up Iraq invasion, and helping the rebels in Libya (who include quite a few of Gadhafi's own military. ) After having clearly rejected Gadhafit, they have asked many times for our help. Perhaps you haven't noticed this--though it has been in the news many times. Can't understand how you have missed it.

I only advocate what the provisional government in Benghazi is asking.   They have made it clear they want no Western ground troops.   And we must abide by that--nor do we even want to put in ground troops, you may possibly have noticed.

The Benghazi government does not want a Western "invasion".   Nor do we. What's more , I think you realize this, but choose for your own reasons to disregard it.

They do want Western governments to recognize them as the only legitimate government in Libya.   And to release to them at least some of the frozen funds.    And to provide more timely support from the air.
   
We should do all these things.

And a far more applicable comparison than Vietnam is 1938 Germany.    Dissidents in Germany then reached out to France and the UK, and were rebuffed.   

This was a huge mistake.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 01:33 PM

And "occupation" is the last thing the Western powers want.

As anybody who could--and was willing to-- read could easily see.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 02:48 PM

Thanks for the good wishes, Ron.

I'm not intending to misrepresent your position. What I'm concerned about is the process that is referred to as "mission drift" - what starts as minimal intervention builds into full scale involvement, because minimal intervention just won't do the job.

There is no process by which the rebel administration in Benghazi can be recognised as "the only legitimate government in Libya" except a vote by the Security Council to that effect. And that is not going to happen.

This means that the level and nature of the intervention is severely restricted. Going further than those limitations would involve an effective breach with the UN, as happened in the case of Iraq.

"More timely support from the air" - there are real limits on how effective air support can be in countering ground troops who are not using heavy transport and heavy weapons, but using mortars and hand held guns. I doubt if frozen funds are a major problem in the short run. Similarly supplying arms and even training for rebel troops is not going to tun them into an effective fighting force with any prospect of defeating the Tripoli based army for quite some time. I doubt if it would make much difference at this point.

A ceasefire without preconditions and an attempt to negotiate seems to me the only realistic way of stopping the killing. And if it turned put to be temporary, with the fighting starting again, I think it likely that this would very likely actually put the rebels in a stronger military position.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 05:51 PM

"Gentlemen, lest we get carried away with our own rhetoric, NATO's mission is NOT to help the rebels. It's mission is to help protect civilians"

Bruce, I haven't laughed so much in ages.


Like it or not, Gadaffi's government WAS the Libyan government. People rebelled. He used force. That is the prerogative of government.

It was a military operation against a rebel force. Nothing at all to do with the UN.

The Americo-UN activity is, quite simply, interference in the internal affairs of a sovereign state.

And while the Gadaffi regime may have been a kleptocracy, it provided more trickle-down benefits for its people than Ronnie Raygun, the Shrub, and Milk-Snatcher combined.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 06:53 PM

So, you think it is the prerogative of governments to slaughter unarmed citizens for protesting against their government, which is how the rebellion started in Libya, lest you forget. Well I, for one, am grateful that the world has finally learned the lessons of genocide in places like Srebrenica and Rwanda and has said it will no longer stand by while maniacal dictators slaughter their populations. As much as you might admire the bastard Gaddafi the people of Libya appear to have a different opinion of him and are willing to die to be free of his tyranny and with the world's help I hope they will be successful. Power to the people!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 10:51 PM

And please, Lizzie, spare us the canned drivel about "Western arrogance".    After a while breast-beating leftist tripe starts to get old.

The rebels begged--over and over--for our assistance.

Yet again--they do not want Western ground troops--which is fine with us.   They have told us what they do want, and we should comply.

There will be no Western "occupation"--since no party wants one, with the possible exception of Col. Gaddafi, since that's the only thing which could possibly unify Libyans behind him.

The idea of "occupation" of Libya is a self-inflicted Leftist nightmare, with no basis in reality.

But if it makes you happy to agonize about an absurd idea, by all means have at it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 02:35 AM

Bobad - think about it. Rulers rule.

Ron, think about it. There are plenty in the USA or UK who might beg for the assistance of a foreign power to dethrone our own kleptocracies. Goose, gander?

If it is legitimate for the US (etc) to interfere in Libya, then it is legitimate for other powers to interfere in the US (etc).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 07:32 AM

"If it is legitimate for the US (etc) to interfere in Libya, then it is legitimate for other powers to interfere in the US (etc)."

If the US were waging war against it's citizenry then I should hope that "other powers" would intervene.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 07:53 AM

"...And please, Lizzie, spare us the canned drivel about "Western arrogance".    After a while breast-beating leftist tripe starts to get old.

The rebels begged--over and over--for our assistance....."


Strange that other rebels in other countries are apparently mute, or maybe it's just that we're deaf to their cries...OR, maybe it's other reasons, eh, Ron?

Come ON, Mugabe's been killing his people for years, but we entertain him on official visits! If he had oil of course, we might just sit up and listen...

I heard last night that over 300 people in one city have been killed, and whilst ANY person killed is a tragedy, other dictators kill hundreds of thousands of their people, yet we do NOTHING, not a damn thing.

I'm not a leftist, by the way....I'm not an anythingist, just a woman who has her eyes open, thinks differently to you and sees through all the political crap going down around me.

The West IS arrogant, I'm afraid and seems to think it should meddle in all affairs where there is something to be gained, yet turns a blind eye to all other affairs which do not directly benefit their political and corporate masters.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 08:05 AM

"Western arrogance"

The resolution to come to the aid of the citizens of Libya was made by the UN security council with the support of the Arab League, the African Union and the GCC.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 08:35 AM

The Arab League supported the idea - but none of its members have provided any actual assistance (too busy in some cases suppressing their own dissidents, or in the case of Saudi Arabia, the dissidents in its neighbour Bahrain).

The African Union has been busy trying to broker a ceasefire without preconditions, which has been rejected by the Benghazi and by Britain and France etc.

"The initials GCC may have different meanings in various fields"

But I think "Western arrogance" in this context isn't too helpful. The point is, there is a practical as well as principled limit to what can be done to intervene in other countries to prevent injustice. And there is always a very real danger that "striving to better oft we mar what's well" - or make bad things even worse.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 08:43 AM

GCC = Gulf Cooperation Council


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 08:35 PM

Trump 'em


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 07 May 11 - 09:46 AM

Gaddafi is now using helicopters with Red Cross and Red Crescent markings to drop mines into the harbour of Misurata, which is clearly against international law. He also dropped bombs from small planes and destroyed Misurata's fuel supply. I say it's time for the US to get back into the fray and finish the bastard off.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/05/201157112432539341.html


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 May 11 - 09:56 AM

Well, some of Gadhafi's commanders are still able to plan and carry out strategic military missions. Score another one for their side.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 May 11 - 01:25 PM

Bobad is right.   And the longer the delay the more dead--on both sides. And of course the more expense to the West--if people are concerned about budgets, as seems the case.

Among other things, more drones--and more flights by them--are needed.

Nobody , neither the opponents of Western involvement nor those in favor of it, wants this to drag on.    Nobody but Gadhafi--since the longer it lasts the more likely the West--or the rebels--will give up.    Then comes the Brother Leader's payback on " the rats".    Which doesn't seem to bother some Mudcatters.

Let's lance this boil.


The only really good development I've seen recently is that it appears the West is preparing to release about $4.5 billion of the frozen funds to the rebels.

Supposedly only for food and other humanitarian purposes. But I've also seen "military salaries" named.   If this money becomes as fungible as is likely, the rebels can actually buy some of the weapons they need.

We also need to try to cut off oil sales by Gadhafi's regime--and promote those of the rebel government.

And there is no excuse for every member of NATO involved in this operation not to recognize the rebel provisional government as the only legitimate government.

The legitimacy of Gadhafi's regime is long gone.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 May 11 - 09:26 PM

Ron-

My only disagreement with you is my willingness to acknowledge that I don't know what will replace Gadhafi, whether it will be worse. I'm willing to assume nothing could be worse but that may not be true. I'm not picking up any reservations from you with regard to supporting the rebels, and I find that frankly puzzling.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 07 May 11 - 10:11 PM

Oh yeah .... Libya ..... forgot about that.

biLL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 08 May 11 - 03:48 AM

Cameron......opportunist
Blair .......opportunist
Sarkosy......opportunist

It's all about access to Libyan oil rights......fools

We are being used by a bunch of pirates, fundamentalists and immature young kids blinded by the mirage of Western "democracy"(consumerism)

Do you people really want to promote a fullscale civil war in Libya, with all the thousands of deaths that will involve?
Or is your stance simply ideological masturbation?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 May 11 - 09:59 AM

I'll leave Ake to answer his own question--not that there's any purple prose in it. Of course not.

Mine for him is:   yet again:    Are you just fine with Gadhafi slaughtering his own dissidents? If not, how will you prevent it?

For Charlie, and other reasonable people this is a start on his answer. I will have a lot more--no time now.   I read constantly everything I can get on the Libyan crisis--whether it supports Western intervention or not.

It's clear to me the only reason not to intervene with everything the rebels have asked for--that is, everything but ground troops, is the fear that the rebels would form a worse regime for Libya than Gadhafi.   Specifically that al-Qaeda would benefit.    On this point, it is clear from my reading that al-Qaeda is the refuge of the desperate.    The way to encourage al_Qaeda in Libya would be to let Gadhafi win--and watch the annihilation of his opposition that would follow.    The bitter survivors would turn to the ideology which sees violence as the solution to problems--that is, to al Qaeda,    The "Arab spring" would be harshly discredited in the cruelest way.


More later.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 May 11 - 11:57 AM

Ron-

I certainly agree with that reasoning.

I also acknowledge that better access to oil has a lot to do with the interest of most NATO members in displacing Gadhafi. Of course Gadhafi did a reasonable job of keeping them all supplied for years but he was, and remains, a wild card. Who's to say if access to oil will be any more reliable or on more favorable turns under a new rebel regime?

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 May 11 - 12:45 PM

The U.S. has stepped into another civil war in a Muslim country.

No boots on the ground? Don't count on it.

Nato's boss is the U.S.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 May 11 - 11:52 PM

Proof of the pudding....

Unless you are convinced of course that there is no difference between Obama and GWB.



As I have noted already, there are huge differences between the Libya and Iraq interventions. To find a tortured parallel, you would have to posit that in 2003 in Iraq before the first Western bomb fell, half the country, including half his own military, had already deserted Saddam.   And that the rebels had already appealed directly to the West for aid several times. Neither of which was the case. As is obvious to anybody who takes off his leftist goggles.



Again there's not much time.


But there are scads of articles about the provisional government and the rebels.   Not hard to find.

Just one more example for tonight:

Christian Science Monitor:

(Anybody who gags at the word Christian need not read further).

Voice of Free Libya:    a song "written in 2002 by...a medical student who spent three years in jail in the 1990's for speaking out against Gadhafi.   The patriotic song was soon banned from the airwaves and is now a favorite among protestors downtown waiting for the fall of Tripoli."

"It's all about love of country and identifying with the people's suffering." "It doesn't mention Gaddafi and he hated this. He wanted to be the symbol of all good things in Libya,   That kind of patriotism was threatening to him " says one Libyan.

Lots and lots more examples of the rebels' attitudes.   No time now.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 May 11 - 03:42 PM

Ah, yes, "Nato" (=US) attack on party of young clerics.

As posted elsewhere, this is my "told you so" day.

Told you so.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 May 11 - 05:04 PM

Richard-

And it's entirely possible that 12 clerics were killed in a NATO bombing raid or Brega, as Gadhafi has gleefully pointed out. If the story is true, it's very unfortunate. So it goes.

Meanwhile the Rebels seem to have had some success in clearing Gadhafi's forces from in and around Misrata, including the airport.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 14 May 11 - 12:05 PM

Without Nato assisination attacks the insurgency would have been over and forgotten about weeks ago......now the West must kill Gadaffi and all his family and probably thousands of civilians to justify being there to begin with.

What a shower of fucking idiots

Just like Blair in Iraq.......Cameron is a proven liar and manipulator, who is now being manipulated by a gang of Islamists, opportunists and dreamers.

And like Iraq its being done in our name!

And why no brave assasination attempt on Assad or his family?

Stp Press.....Muslim Brotherhood to fight the Egyptian elections
Once again I find myself with Richard........"I told you so"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 May 11 - 02:50 PM

akenaton-

"Without Nato assisination attacks the insurgency would have been over and forgotten about weeks ago......now the West must kill Gadaffi and all his family and probably thousands of civilians to justify being there to begin with.

What a shower of fucking idiots"

It's probably true that the Rebel insurgency would have been suppressed and many of the "Rebels" slaughtered by Gadhafi's forces a month or so ago without NATO assistance.

Calling people "fucking idiots" doesn't necessarily improve the logic of what you're saying.

Your rational for non-intervention would be what?

Intervention would not have been politically possible without the call by the Arab League for UN intervention, nor without the UN authorizing NATO to intervene on its behalf.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 May 11 - 07:59 PM

So when a bunch of Islamists call for an assassination attempt on Cameron or Obama will that be right? Apart from the beneficial effect generally of killing Cameron. It's a jurisdictional issue. None of our business to interfere internal Libyan law and order any more than it's there place to interfere here.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 14 May 11 - 10:53 PM

"None of our business to interfere internal Libyan law and order any more than it's there place to interfere here."

There is an international norm known as Requirement to Protect.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,giovanni
Date: 15 May 11 - 04:06 AM

Akenaton - I could have written exactly the same as your post. Not surprising as I generally agree with your posts.

And I agree with Richard Bridge. There's a first time for everything.

To Ron Davies, Charley Noble, bobad and any other victims of the US propaganda machine - you don't protect people by bombing the shit out of them. Wasn't it the Vietnam debacle that came up with "fighting for peace is like fucking for chastity".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 15 May 11 - 05:06 AM

Well said G.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 11 - 08:15 AM

Good article in The Telegraph    Handwringers take note.

Highlights:

"Even for an Arab dictator, it is an unusually cynical variant of the "human shield" gambit. On the roof of his Tripoli command bunker, Colonel Gaddafi has installed a children's fairground.

Forty feet away from the crater made on Thursday by a NATO bomb, young boys and girls played happily on a roundabout shaped like a giant tea set."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The reporter speaking to random citizens in Tripoli:

"Within thirty seconds, I had turned a corner and was out of sight in the narrow covered passages of the souk. And within ten minutes, I had spoken to three people who told me, quite bluntly, that they despised Gaddafi and wanted him gone.

"He is mad," said the man in the striped shirt, having first taken the precaution of checking my passport to make sure that I was indeed British."I want to be able to criticise him – why shouldn't I? He has ruined this country."

Another trader told me about the year he had spent in southern England. "Sarkozy, Cameron, they are doing what we all want," he said. "Tell everyone that we don't mind the bombing at all. We want the government to change." A third person said that the shopkeepers in the souk had been ordered to stay open, even though there was very little business, to preserve an appearance of normality."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

"Even at the bomb sites themselves - visited on official trips in the middle of the night, just after they happen, or the next day - almost no-one is hostile. It must have something to do with the fact that, in two months of attacks, almost none of Tripoli's civilians have been harmed. "We know that the regime's claims about civilian casualties are b----," said one customer who approached me in a shop as I was buying a soft drink. "There is a lot of opposition to Gaddafi in Tripoli.""


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 15 May 11 - 09:15 AM

Consider Egypt and Tunisia: at least those military forces stood with the democratic aspirations of the people, and those dictators resigned rather than let their countries dissolve in bloodshed.

Does anyone seriously think that once Gaddafi decided slaughter his opponents rather than resign there was *any* solution that would adequately protect human life?

Gaddafi announced also that once the rebel cities had fallen, he would be ruthless in destroying individual lives.

So what it comes down to, from a humanitarian point of view, is

A. who's killing more people - Gaddafi or NATO

B. whether the total casualties will finally be less or more than they would have been if Gaddafi had been allowed a free hand

C. whether the hoped-for overthrow of Gaddafi is worth [X number] of human lives

D. whether NATO's actions, taken (at least in part) to prevent G's announced slaughter, are morally superior to G's actions, taken solely to keep himself in power.

Anyone who has a clear, indisputable answer to A, B, or C, please share it and explain why it is so obvious to you and not to the rest of us.

And is there anyone who doesn't know the answer to D?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 15 May 11 - 09:55 AM

There is only one question....Who's business is it to deal with an armed insurrection in a sovereign country?

Gadaffi provided for his people better than any other leader of any other state in the area.....according to information available.

He was against the excesses of Muslim Fundamentalism.....so why are we involved here and nowhere else, even in countries who are shooting their unarmed citizens daily in cold blood?

Oil Rights......and the fact that Gadaffi is a "loose cannon" as far as supplying the West is concerned, is disliked by other Arab puppets, and is not "our monkey"

Col Gadaffi, most of his family and thousands of civilians, will be sacrificed for what the West believes is their interests, just as Saddam, his family and almost a million Iraqis were sacrificed in another illegal and immoral war.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 15 May 11 - 10:12 AM

Bobad....don't worry, I dont think a few dozen kids will stop these murderous assassins.

They are what we call collateral damage......this is nice war, sanitised, just like the movies.....when our boys fly back to base, the fairies come and put all the little arms legs and heads back together again.
.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 11 - 11:06 AM

Ake, unfortunately the citizens of Libya don't share your admiration of Col(self proclaimed) Gaddafi, that's why they are willing to sacrifice their lives to get rid of him.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 May 11 - 11:52 AM

Damn, I have to agree with Akenaton.

If the Libyan people want to overthrow their established government, it's up to them.

As I recollect the words used at the time of the alleged "threat to murder civilians" the actual threat was to convict and to execute those who had risen against the established government. Normal enough.

Money benefits of Gadaffi to the people of his country. Fact. Learn to live with it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 15 May 11 - 12:26 PM

When millions rose against the established government of the United States and fought against it through four years of war, Washington made no threats of postwar executions.

And, in fact, except for the commander of Andersonville prison for war crimes (the justice of which is disputed) there were none. Rebel soldiers were not only allowed to go home in peace, they were allowed to keep their personal weapons.

Execution of political enemies is not "normal enough."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 11 - 12:49 PM

Those who are against the UN intervention seem to forget that the revolt began as a peaceful protest in which unarmed civilians were set upon and murdered by Gaddafi's goons and helicopter gunships and were forced to take up arms in self defense. Once that die was cast there was no turning back as large numbers of civilians would have been butchered by the tyrant. As it stands he has lost all legitimacy as the leader of Libya, in the eyes of the world and the International Criminal Court which will likely issue a warrant for his arrest by the end of the month. This will effectively make it impossible for him to escape into exile, thus sealing his fate.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 May 11 - 01:39 PM

Oh FFS bobad.

Demonstration illegal (under local law)

Government police say "go home".

Demonstrators say "no".

Government troops say "go home".

Demonstrators say "no".

Government does as UK did at Peterloo or US did at Kent State, or US federal government did in 1792.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 11 - 01:57 PM

So Richard, are you saying that governments have the right to slaughter their citizenry for the act of peaceful assembly? Do you defend that right?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 15 May 11 - 02:02 PM

A step further... the right to peaceful assembly for any reason.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 11 - 02:14 PM

all foreign troops should withdraw from libya,
all this talk about protecting peoples rights is hypocritical crap, no one bothers invading countries like Zimbabwe, or Chile[ when it was under pinochet]


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 11 - 02:54 PM

No one is ever going to be able to say for sure whether the numbers who will have been killed because of outside intervention in Libya when the conflict is over is greater than the number who would otherwise have died.

In many historical precedents the number killed because of outside intervention has arguably been far higher - Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, for example. In others the reverse applies - Sierra Leone, possibly in the endgame of Bosnia.

In the case of Libya it's impossible even to guess since the numbers are still building up.

One thing is for certain - we should always assume that the people involved in organising the killing (on both sides) are likely to be telling us lies.

There are two alternatives. One is to continue and escalate the bombing in the hope that at time it will achieve the desired result. The other is to agree to a ceasefire from both sides and try to negotiate an acceptable result.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 15 May 11 - 04:28 PM

I would agree with that Mr McGrath, unfortunately on our part it is now about not losing face.
I feel certain that they will bomb Col Gadaffi and his family to pieces and if necessary many of his supporters.

The "protection of civilians" was simply a smoke screen for regime change....we care nothing for international law or peoples rights.

As always might is right, I feel disgusted and ashamed of our hypocrisy.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 15 May 11 - 04:52 PM

Unfortunately, international relations are impossible without a certain amount of hypocrisy.

Should NATO or the U.S. have interfered in Rwanda?

Any answer will open somebody to the charge of hypocrisy or else breach of international law or morality.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 May 11 - 09:05 PM

"Early on Friday, alliance jets struck what NATO said was a command-and-control bunker in the eastern frontline town of Brega, but the government claimed that the building was actually a guest house and that 11 imams had died in the attack, while 40 others were injured.

A Dutch engineer told Sky News that he had helped build the guest house and the underground bunker for Gaddafi in 1988, and that the bunker was meant to be a communications hub."

The point being that Gadhafi is quite capable of planting innocent civilians in his guest houses/command & communications bunkers. Richard, you might make a reply with regard to "I've told you so" post above. But, what the fuck, you're mind's made up.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 15 May 11 - 09:36 PM

And those "guests" were less than "human shields." They were sacrificial propaganda items. G knew well that in event of war, all of his C & C HQs would undoubtedly be hit.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 May 11 - 01:11 AM

So several clerics have been killed--certainly a tragedy. And what is Richard's reaction?    Is he sorry for the loss of life?    Not precisely.    He seems in fact overjoyed.

Hard to tell if he's happier--knowing his attitude toward religion--that clerics have been killed--or that he gets a chance to jump up and down yelling:   "I told you so."

Either way his behavior is remarkably close to that of a perfect slimeball.   Who knows, maybe a bit of religion in his life might improve the situation. He obviously needs something.

Somewhat remarkable, considering the reputation lawyers already have with the general public, that he would want to confirm the stereotype.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 May 11 - 02:05 AM

I'd like, Ron, people to behave legally.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 16 May 11 - 03:23 AM

"Should NATO or the U.S. have interfered in Rwanda?

Gadaffi was not planning genocide, he was dealing with an internal armed insurgency.
He behaved exactly as Cameron would behave if a section of the UK population took up arms and threatened his government.

Whether you like to admit it or not lighter, this was opportunism on the part of the West, to rid themselves of someone whom they find troublesome.......Regime change by force...as Richard says,
illegal under the UN charter.

However, the even bigger mistake is becoming apparent, as the Islamists take advantage of their new "democracy" all over the region.
Israel shot and killed many unarmed protesters on their "border" yesterday.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 16 May 11 - 04:31 AM

"Gadaffi was not planning genocide, he was dealing with an internal armed insurgency.

He behaved exactly as Cameron would behave if a section of the UK population took up arms and threatened his government."


Not quite borne out by either time line or what was stated by Muammar Gaddafi was it Akenaton.

1: First there was no armed insurrection only peaceful protest as there had been in Tunisia and in Egypt

2: Second Gaddafi turned his troops on his own population and when they looked doubtful about shooting down unarmed civilians Gaddafi engaged the services of mercenaries to do the killing for him

3: When this occured large sections of his armed forces deserted and the "people" raided the massive armouries to get weapons in order to defend themselves.

In short Gadafi started the killing and the UN was asked to step in.

All perfectly legal Richard - ANYTHING THE UN JOINTLY DECIDES AND AGREES TO DO IS LEGAL.

But then that is the trouble with the legal profession they get confused law has got nothing whatsoever to do with justice or what is right - Law is simply law.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 16 May 11 - 05:37 AM

Christian civilians being butchered daily in the new "democratic" Egypt" (today's Times)

Israelis kill Palestinian unarmed protesters on their "border" (today's Times)

When are we sending in the drones?

Why Libya?.....Regime change in the hope of securing oil rights....pure and simple......and illegal.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 11 - 07:18 AM

"...considering the reputation lawyers already have with the general public,"

As they say, it's ninety eight percent of lawyers that give the other two a bad name.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 11 - 07:18 AM

According to the reports I've seen, the slaughtered imams were in the house next door to the one with "the bunker".

What's the difference between a bunker and an air-raid shelter anyway?

It occurs to me that while it's possible that the stories we are being given about children's playgrounds being placed as human shields might be true, it's equally possible that such stories are being put out as cover for anticipated incidents where children are liable to be killed by misdirected bombings.

Back in the First Gulf War there was the case where a shelter in Baghdada was destroyed by US "smart bombs", and it was at first asserted that it was a military command site and that those killed were military personnel. In fact it appears that the signals identified by "intelligence" were from a site 300 yards away, and the shelter was being used by hundreds of civilians, as it had been in the war against Iran. 408 civilians were killed on that occasion.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 16 May 11 - 07:30 AM

NATO was already getting oil from Libya. If human rights were not an issue, why rock the boat with needless military involvement?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Keith A
Date: 16 May 11 - 07:37 AM

"the stories we are being given about children's playgrounds being placed as human shields might be true, it's equally possible that such stories are being put out as cover"

Would Andrew Gilligan conspire to do that McG.?

By Andrew Gilligan, in Tripoli 8:00PM BST 14 May 2011
Even for an Arab dictator, it is an unusually cynical variant of the "human shield" gambit. On the roof of his Tripoli command bunker, Colonel Gaddafi has installed a children's fairground.

Forty feet away from the crater made on Thursday by a NATO bomb, young boys and girls played happily on a roundabout shaped like a giant tea set.

We had been brought deep inside Gaddafi's leadership compound, which takes up at least a full square mile of Tripoli city centre, to witness what the regime called "Nato's madness" in attacking women and children.

But the trip succeeded only in showing that if anyone has put civilians in harm's way, it is the government of Libya. Also near the top of the bunker, which is covered with grass, civilians have been brought to live in tents, ready to sacrifice themselves for the good of their leader.
(Picture too)http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8513982/Tripoli-despatch-Nato-tightens-squeeze-on-Gaddafi.h


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 11 - 07:43 AM

That really was me, but link no good.
Picture here.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1387454/We-bomb-Gaddafi-says-UK-general-tyrants-hideout-childrens-playground.html


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 11 - 07:55 AM

From Al Jazeera:

"The International Criminal Court's chief prosecutor has sought arrest warrants for Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, his son, Saif al-Islam, and another Libyan official on war crimes charges.

Luis Moreno-Ocampo will hand a 74-page dossier of evidence to a three-judge panel at the court in the Hague, the Netherlands, on Monday.

They will decide whether the case is strong enough for them to confirm crimes against humanity charges, and issue international arrest warrants.

"We are almost ready for trial," Moreno-Ocampo said in a statement earlier. "The office collected good and solid evidence to identify [those] who bear the greatest responsibility."

The third official named was Abdullah Senussi, Gaddafi's intelligence chief.

Moreno-Ocampo said that Muammar Gaddafi had personally ordered attacks on Libyan civilians. He described Saif al-Islam as Libya's "de facto prime minister". Senussi was the "executioner" of the regime's campaign against its opponents, he said.

"The office gathered direct evidence about orders issued by Muammar Gaddafi himself, direct evidence of Saif al-Islam organising the recruitment of mercenaries, and direct evidence of the participation of al-Senussi in the attacks against demonstrators," said Moreno-Ocampo.

Moreno-Ocampo's investigation into potential human rights violations has spanned several countries and involved sorting through around 1,500 documents, Al Jazeera's Rory Challands said.

But the two-and-a-half months it has taken to come up with a petition for arrest warrants is a "heartbeat in international justice," he added.

On Monday, Italian foreign minister Franco Frattini said Gaddafi was looking for a "suitable place" to find exile.

"Messages have been arriving from the regime's restricted circle," he said. "Certain [members] have spoken under cover and are beginning to say that Gaddafi is looking for an honourable way out," he added."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 11 - 08:03 AM

So what do you who have been defending the regime's actions against the "armed insurgents" have to say about that?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 May 11 - 08:09 AM

Continued access to Libyan oil is certainly one factor in this drama but as others have pointed out there was no problem with Western access to Libyan oil before the protests and armed insurrection. In fact access to oil in the short run is jeopardized by UN/NATO intervention, at least as long as there is a stalemate. The market price for Libyan oil will not change, regardless of who governs Libya, as that is set by the world oil market (and the oil speculators).

It's possible that foreign oil companies will get a better deal afterwards from a new government. Or not.

It's also possible that a greater share of the oil revenue will be channeled to economic development projects and social programs rather than lining the pockets of Gadhafi and his family. Or not.

The Rebels appear to be in control of Brega again this morning. So it goes.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 11 - 09:25 AM

Kids in London used to play on bomb sites.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 16 May 11 - 09:35 AM

McGrath says .... "Kids in London used to play on bomb sites" ... in fact I recall a song by Duncan Browne called "On the Bombsite" which he recalls fond memories when he was a child playing on the bombsites.

biLL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 16 May 11 - 02:39 PM

Apparently neither Libya nor the USA have signed up the War Crimes Tribuneral.

Just heard that Col Gadaffis compound has been hit by five huge bombs
So much for "care for civilians"

It is quite obvious that Gadaffi will be killed and anyone else who is anywhere near him.
Yet other states are killing protesters all around him

Thank fuck it wont be long till Scotland is free from the warmongering bastards.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 11 - 02:49 PM

I was a kid in London who played on bomb sites.
I do not see the relevance.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 11 - 03:51 PM

I was referring to this in Andrew Gilligan's report: "Forty feet away from the crater made on Thursday by a NATO bomb, young boys and girls played happily..."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 16 May 11 - 04:04 PM

I reacted to McGrath's post .... it sparked that song from deep in my memory ... just a touch of music revelance to this thread ... after all, the Madcat is basically a music website.

anyway

on with the arguments and debating.

biLL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 16 May 11 - 04:07 PM

Oooops ... I meant relevance, not revelance .... just wanted to make a correction before some tight ass tries to slam dunk me with that one.

biLL   ... ;-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 11 - 05:20 PM

Childrens' playgrounds placed on top of U boat pens.
That would be equivalent to what we see here.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 11 - 06:31 PM

The thing is, what "we see herre" is never the whole picture, and can't be. We can only speculate about many significant details.

For example, was that children's roundabout which was mentioned placed there after the bombing started, or has it been there since a time when there was no expectation that foreign countries, which at that time were friendly, would soon be carrying out bombing raids?   We just don't have that kind of information.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 May 11 - 07:00 PM

Newsflash: Blackwater is going into Libya to help the rebels.

The U.S. doesn't like Gadafi and they want another dictator in there that they can do
business with.

As Hillary says, "regime change".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 May 11 - 09:14 PM

"Blackwater is going into Libya to help the rebels."

Blackwater or whatever they renamed themselves goes where the big bucks flow. I do wonder who is paying them in advance.

Actually I think Blackadder should be sent in.

Akenaton-

"Thank fuck it wont be long till Scotland is free from the warmongering bastards."

Good luck on that, but watch out for them drones.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 May 11 - 12:06 AM

"another dictator".      Drivel--from one of our most dependable sources.    Yes folks, another brilliant leftist observation.

Blissfully free, as always, from logic, evidence, and facts.

Nice to know some things don't change.




And by the way, if Blackwater is to be employed, let's have a source on this scoop. My understanding is that it is a possibility, not a fact.

I will defer to anybody with a good source on the issue.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 May 11 - 02:48 AM

McG, I tend to agree with you on this thread, but I think you are wrong about this.
Gilligan said, ""This is a place of recreation, a public park where the people of Tripoli often come," insisted Moussa Ibrahim, the government spokesman. But this "public park" is reached by passing through no fewer than four concentric rings of 15-foot blast walls, checkpoints and sentry towers. Heavily armed guards stand around the outermost perimeter, moving on any passer-by who might mistake the place for somewhere to throw a frisbee. "


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 17 May 11 - 03:23 AM

Ron Davis....would you be prepared to accept bets on the outcome of the soon to be held elections in the new "democratic" Egypt.

And, if the West succeeds in assasinating Col Gadaffi,have you any idea who or what will replace him?

Remember how we were assured that the Brotherhood had"no intention of contesting future elections"
Well those elections are being rushed through and guess which is the most organised and popular faction?
The liberal Democrats?.....wrong!
The "liberal" Conservatives?....wrong!
The Socialist Party of Egypt?....wrong!

We told you so!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 17 May 11 - 07:33 AM

No matter what government is elected it will have been chosen by the people, a right they have fought for and won.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 17 May 11 - 08:22 AM

What, exactly, would it prove if (and AFAIK it is only *if*)
"Xe Services" (formerly known as "Blackwater") "is going into Libya to help the rebels"?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 May 11 - 09:10 AM

Ake-

We are talking about Libya--only.

If you would take off your blinders and read a bit, you'd see there are all sorts of indications the Libyans are in fact headed in the right direction--at least the rebels are.    The regime's schools were closed in Benghazi; they now have volunteers staffing the schools.   They have volunteers as traffic cops.   Volunteers as garbage collectors.

They are trying their best to put a government together.   And there is no dictator.

Gadhafi will likely soon be under indictment from the International Criminal Court, a branch of the UN, for crimes against his own people.

His reaction:   Libyra does not recognize this court.

Please tell us all the wonderful things Gadhafi has done and explain why a huge chunk of his own people want him gone.






Look, a very large number of the rebels are intellectuals. I would think you would identify with them.

Exactly what do you have against them?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 May 11 - 09:57 AM

"Libya does not.."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 May 11 - 08:48 AM

NATO announced this morning that its bombers had sunk eight Libyan warships last night in Tripoli Harbor. Here's the story from Al Jazeera: Click here for story

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 11 - 03:24 AM

Poster appears to be akenaton
No one can still be denying that this is simply about regime change.

These ships were obviously at anchor, not taking part in ending the insurrection and probably were partially crewed.

Simply murder,as cold blooded as the daily shooting of unarmed protesters in Syria.

I wonder if, when the Muslim Brotherhood take control of Egypt, will the penny drop in the minds to ordinary folks in USA, UK and Mudcat, that we have been duped again......and led by donkeys!

And Charley, maybe NATO will aim their drones at Westminster!!
Aye that WILL be right. It will be classified as an insurgency against the UK government and Crown.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 May 11 - 09:32 AM

akenaton-

We're not going to agree on which side to support in Libya. But so far it seems unlikely that NATO will be targeting Westminster or even Glasgow. When they do, I'm prepared to weigh the arguments put forth by either side.

I don't consider soldiers, sailors, or aviators of the Gadhafi regime in the same category as "unarmed protesters" or "innocent civilians." By their recent actions such as mining harbors and indiscriminate shelling of residential urban areas they have placed themselves in the category of NATO targets.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 21 May 11 - 09:59 AM

>When they do, I'm prepared to weigh the arguments put forth by either side.

So what are you doing on this thread?

Some people...!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 May 11 - 11:00 AM

I'm trying to think if there are any acts of war which not be claimed by our leaders as justified ways of "protecting civilians". They already appear to have used cluster bombs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 May 11 - 11:58 AM

McGrath-

"They already appear to have used cluster bombs."

"They" and I could be wrong were the Gadhafi forces a few weeks ago, lobbing them in as shells or rockets at Misrata.

So hard to keep score when so few care!

But you make a good general point.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 May 11 - 12:21 PM

Yes, Gaddaffi's side also appears to have been using cluster bombs. But it just seems they aren't the only ones.

Like the United States, and a handful of other countries (eg Israel, Russia, China), Libya has not ratified the International Convention on Cluster Munitions.

The other countries involved in this war have signed the Convention, so it would be illegal for them to use cluster bombs. However the Convention was specially modified to make it legal for counties which have signed it to cooperate militarily with non-signatories who use such weapons.

So that's all right, so long as the only NATO people using these weapons are USA...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 11 - 12:28 PM

I haven't seen any reference to NATO forces using cluster bombs, can you provide a link to your information source?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 May 11 - 01:48 PM

Here's a video clip claimed to show this.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 11 - 02:04 PM

I would be very careful believing what the original poster of that vid clip says about it. If you go to his site or read the comments at the original YouTube posting it would appear that he is someone with an anti American agenda. Here is one of the comments:

"This was not a cluster bomb, nor was it in Brega. (If that was a cluster bomb then Misrata would be wiped off the map because Gaddafi forces have been shelling non-stop with those for a while now.) Anyways, this video is of an ammunition dump in the Benina Airport area in Benghazi exploding, this was reported a while back. It was a result of sabotage or an accident as there was no fighting anywhere near there nor in Benghazi at the time.

I am Libyan, also from Benghazi. Search Benghazi Explosion
BarcaFeb17 3 weeks ago 3


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 May 11 - 11:48 PM

Bobad-

Interesting. We do need to check out as well as we can the bias of our sources, and identify what it is up front if we can.

I generally find Al Zazeera a useful source, knowing that they are certainly not biased in favor of the US. CNN appears to be less than reliable to me; too often they appear to jump to conclusions on the basis of what will make a dramatic headline.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 22 May 11 - 08:49 AM

Al-Jazeera is no less biased than any other news organization.

But in light of its primary audience, when it does *not* repeat or endorse a story critical of the US or Israel, that should mean it doesn't believe the story.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 May 11 - 07:08 AM

"claimed" is the right word.

As noted by others, there is precisely zero proof that the caption "Obama uses cluster bombs on civilians..." has any validity whatsoever.

Anybody who would accept this video as proof of what the poster of the video says only shows his or her gullibility.

Gee, I wonder if the poster---and anybody who believes it--is left of center.

Do leftists ever do research?    Sometimes it seems unlikely they do.

They are great at smearing.    Not so wonderful at anything else.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 24 May 11 - 01:23 PM

Looking at this from a UK perspective, when we were interning our subjects without trial, torturing them, financing assasination squads and shooting protesters in cold blood,only a few years ago....I dont remember anyone being called to account, or charges of crimes against humanity brought.

If this situation were to arise again tommorow, would NATO feel oliged to kill our Prime Minister, sink our navy and engagfe in mass slaughter of our troops?.....I think not.

Attack helicopters are being readied to kill Col Gadaffis troops wherever they can be found ......Regime change, simple and as illegal as hell.

When you see the results of the coming election in Egypt, come back and tell me this is "all about democracy"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 24 May 11 - 03:14 PM

Video clip posted by MGOH does not look anything like a strike using "Cluster" Bombs.

It does look like a small initial single explosion that then causes sympathetic detonation - It all comes out from one point and blossoms - A typical pattern for "cluster" munitions is simultaneous over a wider spread, the "bomblets" being released and spread from the bomb or shell carrying them.

The version of this being an ammunition store cooking off fits the visual evidence in Kevin's link.

Akenaton tell me where I get this order of events wrong:

1. Libyan protesters take to the streets

2. Gaddafi calls in the army and orders them to shoot

3. Sections of the Libyan Armed Forces refuse to fire on unarmed civilians

4. Gaddafi brings in foreign mercenaries to shoot those protesting

5. Sections of the Libyan Armed Forces desert, the protesters raid Government armouries and arm themselves in order to defend themselves from atack.

6. Gaddafi vows to destroy Benghazi, stating clearly that the people will pay a price in blood for their actions

7. Arab League appeals to the UN to act.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 24 May 11 - 04:28 PM

That may be your interpretation of events T.

I dont necessarily accept everything I am fed by our military or government, whereas the events in Derry were there for all to see.

Who says G personally ordered the army to shoot? Who ordered 2 Para to shoot?

2,3,4,5 Hearsay!

6 Untrue...G vows to hunt down the "criminal insurgents" in "streets, houses or wardrobes"......not "destroy Benghazi"
7 The Arab league is a joke, led by corrupt quislings.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 May 11 - 06:29 PM

akenaton-

There are times when the difference in philosophy or political perspective is too wide to bridge. So we're never going to agree on anything having to do with Libya, and the funny thing is that even if I'm totally wrong in my assumptions we still wouldn't agree!

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 25 May 11 - 03:42 AM

Our actions in Iraq....Basically US/UK with a few stragglers, led arguably to the deaths of hundreds of thousands.....we walk away with our "hands clean", yet Col Gadaffi and his supporters have to be blown to pieces because of the way he finds it necessary to keep order in a tribal land.....A negotiated solution will no longer suffice,he and his supporters must be killed just as Saddam had to be killed.....and we think WE do not evoke tribalism?

We make the old mistake of trying to export our form of democracy...which is simply a tool of political manipulation, into the minds of children and dreamers.
The endgame will be what we now see in Iraq....a lawless corrupt state ruled by mad clerics, with no decent infrastructure and the violent suppression of women.

We seem to be doing everything that we should not be doing in the Middle East and North Africa.

Observe how Chinese influence is achieved.... by helping underdeveloped nations to become productive, not by turning them into war blasted wastelands!

"None so blind".....etc etc


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 May 11 - 04:24 AM

As far as I'm concerned, the President committed an impeachable offense, going to war, without going to Congress, and going against the 'War Powers' act......but then, the international bankers made him do it!...you know, those guys he keeps bailing out, and giving away OUR tax money to....under the guise of bailouts, interest on the loans, and anything else they can dream up, to line their pockets with!!!
Its so much bullshit!
The 'Left' or the 'Right' is just YOUR dream....WAKE UP!!!

GfS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 May 11 - 08:29 AM

>...our form of democracy...is simply a tool of political manipulation...

It is, however, the least manipulative tool yet developed.

On the other hand, autocrats like G don't need to "manipulate." They routinely use murder and extortion because that's the highest form of morality they know.

The Chinese method...it's coming back to me now...the Cultural Revolution and the slaughter of millions.

But at least it wasn't "manipulative."

By way of contrast, I'll repeat what I said earlier: after four years of bloody Civil War, the liberal U.S. Government did not find it necessary to impose mass executions or even prison sentences on its enemies. Those enemies, despite their unconscionable support of slavery, were sufficiently democratic and non-"tribal" to refrain from launching decades of guerrilla (not to mention terrorist)warfare.

I'm sure Chairman Mao, brainiac of the Cultural Revolution, had a different interpretation of these events.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 May 11 - 11:38 AM

I would agree that George W. Bush's invasion of Iraq was ill-advised, adventuristic, unsupported by any world body, and had a terrible cost in terms of loss of Iraqi life, loss of life and wounded among our own soldiers and those of a few allies ("The Coalition of the Willing"), and the monetary costs have almost bankrupted our economy.

I don't view the strategy in Libya in the same way;

There was a clear threat to the civilians in Rebel-held areas
There was initial support from the Arab League
There was support from the UN
There was action via NATO
There are no NATO troops on the ground.
Civilian casualties in Gahdafi-held areas have been surprisingly few

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 25 May 11 - 12:14 PM

Lighter.....China today and China under Chairman Mao, are two different places.

The REAL question is, would China today be the fastest growing economy in the world and the most influential in the third world, if Mao had never existed?
There is a man for all seasons....and who will be the West's man for the raging winter which has yet to come?

Charley.....get a grip, why is Assad being allowed to slaughter protesters with hardly a whimper from the West?

Why no vocal support for the protest movements in Saudi, Syria, Bahrain?

Three guesses
1.....Because "our monsters" control these countries and it is not in our interests to have these monsters removed.....its called hypocrisy!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 11 - 12:17 PM

Akenaton

1. "The protests, unrest and confrontations began in earnest on 15 February 2011. On the evening of 15 February, between 500 and 600 demonstrators protested in front of the police headquarters in Benghazi after the arrest of human rights lawyer Fathi Terbil. The protest was broken up violently by police, resulting in 38 injured"

2. "The protests continued the following day in Benghazi, Darnah and Al Bayda. Libyan security responded with lethal force. Four demonstrators were killed and three wounded." - Source Al-Jazeera report dated 16th February, 2011

3. "A "Day of Rage" in Libya and by Libyans in exile was planned for 17 February. The National Conference for the Libyan Opposition asked that all groups opposed to the Gaddafi regime protests on 17 February, in memory of demonstrations in Benghazi five years earlier. The plans to protest were inspired by the 2010–2011 Tunisian and Egyptian uprisings. Protests took place in Benghazi, Ajdabiya, Darnah, Az Zintan, and Al Bayda. Libyan security forces fired live ammunition into the protests, including .50 caliber sniper ammunition. Some of the gunfire came from helicopters." - Sources, Asharq Al-Awsat; Al-Jezeera & Malta Today

4. "Gaddafi referred to the protesters as "cockroaches" and "rats", and vowed not to step down and to cleanse Libya house by house until the insurrection was crushed. Gaddafi declared that people who don't "love" him "do not deserve to live" - Sources, Haaretz; Daily Telegraph; The Times of Malta; Al Arabiya.

5. "Soon after Gaddafi's government started to use force against demonstrators, it became apparent that some Libyan military units refused to shoot protesters, and Gaddafi had hired foreign mercenaries to do the job. Gaddafi's ambassador to India Ali al-Essawi confirmed that the defections of military units had indeed led to such a decision." Source The jamestown Foundation and as stated in passage quoted (Libyan Ambassador to India)

Not much hearsay at all Akenaton, Tell me who else in Libya would order the Libyan Armed Forces to fire on the protesters as they undoubtedly did? Care to tell us how many of Gaddafi's sons command the elite elements of the Libyan Armed Forces?

A thoroughly evil man who declared war on his own people, the sooner he is done away with the better for all concerned.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 May 11 - 01:00 PM

Not exactly on topic, but related, and for some silly biased based reason no one started a thread about this, but, Benjamin Natanyahu's speeches to AIPAC, and the Congress, kicked butt!!...It was nice to see a LEADER, instead of the spin machine, for the international bankers, for a change!!..Someone even asked, "Are you sure YOU don't have a birth certificate in Hawaii?"
He blew Obama's shit out of the water...and BOTH sides of Congress acknowledged it, including that slime-sucker Reid!!...and getting 29 standing ovations from both parties...> Here's a c/p from ABC 'news':

Today, ABC News' Jonathan Karl described Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's speech to Congress as seeming like a "State of the Union address by a president with sky-high approval ratings" due in part to the numerous standing ovations the foreign leader received. This apparently gave Karl an idea. He went back and counted the number of applause breaks and compared it to the amount President Obama got during his last actual SOTU address. Guess who got more?

Oh. I guess the headline kind of gives the answer away. Oh well.

Yes, Netanyahu received 29 applause breaks compared to Obama's paltry 25. This proves one thing; going to these things must be exhausting. Up, down. Up, down. If they had a big address like this everyday, everyone in Congress would look like Aaron Schock.



From ABC News:

    "One of his biggest applause lines was aimed directly at President Obama.

    'Israel will not return to the indefensible boundaries of 1967,' Netanyahu said, prompting a big standing ovation.

    Later he added: 'Israel on the 1967 lines would be only 9 miles wide. So much for defensible borders.'"


GfS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 May 11 - 01:18 PM

Akenaton:

So Mao's murderous policies were justified because China today has a fast-growing economy and no Bill of Rights?

George Washington and his friends did a better job. Again, no executions required.

GfS:
>One of his biggest applause lines was aimed directly at President Obama.

ABC News has fallen a long way. Obama said that the 1967 borders should provide the basis for negotiations. That means that the current borders are negotiable within reason.

If he'd said instead that the *current* borders should be the basis, that would imply that he wants a settlement very close to what exists now, and conceivably even more territory for Israel.

His choice of words was an olive branch to the Palestinians (or at least the ones who don't demand the destruction of Israel) and nothing more.

Once negotiations begin (if they do), both sides will demand whatever they want anyway. If nobody walks out, they keep talking. It's called "negotiating." Maybe they'll agree to something, maybe not.

Obama did not call in any way for a return to the 1967 borders. Read the speech.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 May 11 - 01:32 PM

lighter: "Obama did not call in any way for a return to the 1967 borders. Read the speech."

I watched it live, as well as both speeches by Natanyahu ..and there's one for the Senate as well, which I'll watch. The consensus is that our toy president did a lot of back-peddling, from the intentional vague 'trial balloon'. Obama substantially damaged his own self, and once again his credibility is plummeting after the nation got a chance to witness a true statesman perform! Natanyahu, kicked ass!
that being said, there are things about him that I'm not so sure about either...BUT, after Obama's stupid drivel, he MUST have known, this was going to be a cakewalk....and it was.
I believe from EVERY report that I've heard, or person I've talked to, about it, that it was SUPER refreshing to hear from someone who actually loved their country..more than their own personal self image!

GfS

GfS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 May 11 - 03:07 PM

Netanyahu may have "kicked ass," as you put it, but it wasn't Obama's.

"Toy president." Whose toy? I'll ask Al Qaida.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 25 May 11 - 03:49 PM

Lighter....I justify nothing, I simply put up ideas for consideration.

BTW.....Todays America is far removed from George Washingtons America. Although they still pay lip service to a Bill of rights, in practice there is none.

As in all Americas satellites money talks.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 25 May 11 - 03:58 PM

To condense T's cut and paste .....from dubious sources, its because Gadaffi is "a bad man"..."deranged"..."a looney".....none of which is any of our business.

Our business should be dealing with our own "bad man" and "deranged looney" Mr Tony Blair.

But what have we done with him?.....made him Middle East peace envoy!
Its like putting the wolf in charge of the sheep!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 11 - 03:59 PM

Lighter.....China today and China under Chairman Mao, are two different places.

The REAL question is, would China today be the fastest growing economy in the world and the most influential in the third world, if Mao had never existed?" - Akenaton


It would probably have got there about forty years ago and there would definitely have been an extra 70 million odd people who would have lived to enjoy that transformation.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 May 11 - 04:20 PM

>Todays America is far removed from George Washingtons America. Although they still pay lip service to a Bill of rights, in practice there is none.

Far removed indeed, but not in the ways of due process under the law. Since the abolition of slavery and segregation, the system has clearly improved.

And would you explain your statement about the Bill of Rights? (They don't have one in Libya or China - to give two non-controversial examples.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 25 May 11 - 05:22 PM

"It would probably have got there about forty years ago and there would definitely have been an extra 70 million odd people who would have lived to enjoy that transformation."

Wrong Teribus, it would probably be in terminal decline like all of the other imperialist, capitalist empires!

Lighter....does their love of liberty and equality extend to the people of other nations, Vietnam and Iraq springing immediately to mind?.....or is death another definition of "freedom"?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 25 May 11 - 05:33 PM

Charley...It matters little whether we agree or not, we can discuss these matters with civility, that is a good thing.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 11 - 05:38 PM

So the modern day "Peoples" Republic of China is NOT Capitalist??

Strange that, because while they were all good communists they were as poor as church mice and starving for the most part.

"Peoples" Republic?? Of course the "people" saw damn all of the rewards they were all the sole reserve of the "animals who were more equal than others" i.e. those selected to be "honoured" as members of the "Party".

The only Empire I have seen collapse in my lifetime Akenaton is the Communist one.

India is in terminal decline is it Akenaton?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 May 11 - 05:42 PM

>does their love of liberty and equality extend to the people of other nations, Vietnam and Iraq springing immediately to mind?.....or is death another definition of "freedom"?

The question was about the Bill of Rights, inviolate (if occasionally battered) since 1789.

Without it, there'd be no discussion about what sort of trials - civil or military - Guantanamo prisoners deserve. They'd simply be hanged, which some Americans would prefer.

Nobody in authority (much less the head of state) has seriously suggested that any prisoners, even dangerous enemies of the nation, be summarily executed.

Because in U.S. custody they have rights.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 26 May 11 - 01:08 AM

Ah Akenaton "Sources" are only dubious when they happen to disagree with your version of events are they?

Eye-witness accounts?

Civilian casualties being treated in hospitals did what? Shoot themselves?

Bodies of civilian protesters on the streets that had to be buried were what? Bodies dug up or removed from mortuaries and arranged as required?

Defecting soldiers, political allies and Government ministers and appointees are ALL lying?

And the daft thing is he (Gaddafi) has done all this before during his 40 year reign.

Stick your head back in the sand Akenaton and sing a couple of verses of "The Internationale", then you'll feel better.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 26 May 11 - 05:32 AM

Maybe this is why the British Royal Air Force has been missing a hell of a lot of it's intended targets !

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1390818/Libya-pilots-inappropriate-behaviour-Two-RAF-airmen-flown-home-drunk.html


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 11 - 07:25 AM

India too will decline in time Teribus, decline is built into the system.

By then of course we shall have aquired the status of a third world country and the wheel shall be back on the rise.
That is, excluding any catastrophic wars engineered by desperate capitalists to protect their precious system.

Then we shall see how much life and liberty means to our leaders
Col Gadaffi will look like the Christmas Fairy in comparison.

BTW Teribus, although I used to be a member of the Communist Party, I now realise that a lifetime of work in the "common good" without any sense of personal fulfillment, is as unsustainable as Capitalism itself.

The difference Teribus, is that I can see beyond any ideology whereas you are stuck in a time warp when people still believed the lie that Capitalism would be capable of providing for modern society.
Get your head out of the mire and recognise what is happening to your Empire......


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lighter
Date: 26 May 11 - 08:23 AM

That 5:32 a.m. post was not from me but from some impersonator.

I am no longer a "GUEST."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 26 May 11 - 09:42 AM

Well Akenaton the track records of Capitalism and Communist Socialism illustrate that while the former is flexible and capable of infinite adaptation to fulfil the needs and requirements of the society it serves the latter is not, nor will it ever be capable of doing so.

How many times now have you tolled "Capitalism's" death knell? How many times have you been wrong?

Gaddafi's days are over, sooner the better as far as I am concerned.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 May 11 - 12:46 PM

Teribus: "The only Empire I have seen collapse in my lifetime Akenaton is the Communist one."

Stay tuned..and you can watch ours collapse as well!.....- because we are but pretty much, adopting their same policies!!!

GfS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lighter
Date: 26 May 11 - 01:50 PM

Do you mean labor camps? A one-party system? Government-run media? Show trials? Abolition of religion and closing of houses of worship? Imprisonment for criticizing the government? The entire economy run by a few clueless officials? Government permission needed to travel from city to city? Limited or no due process of law? Enforced collectivization of agriculture and industry? Oligarchy? No news but official propaganda? Extensive secret police network? Abolition of free enterprise? Food lines? Years-long waiting lists for vacations, apartments, etc.? Truly rotten public services? Minorities shipped to arbitrarily identified "autonomous (but really not)regions"? Declared interests of the state always put ahead of the individual? All art, music, and literary criticism based on the doctrines of nineteenth-century economists Marx & Engels? Parliament of yes-men? The official encyclopedia of world knowledge constantly revised by the government to fit the latest propaganda view - with all mention of certain important historical figures deleted for being too controversial to know about? Rigged elections? Threats and brute force used to quash all political dissent?

Not much similarity that I can see.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 11 - 02:11 PM

How is our Capitalist system adjusting and adapting T?

By robbing the poor and giving to the rich?

The bail out of the capitalist system was a disgrace, quite simply robbery, to save a system which is bound to fail again.

Capitalism has many moral faults T, but it's biggest fault is that it is ultimately unable to sustain itself.

If the people are to be used as consumers, they must be given the means to buy consumables and be kept reasonably healthy.

Unfortunately we no longer vable to compete on the sloping pitch created by global capitalism.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 May 11 - 04:51 PM

Meanwhile back on the ranch:

UK and France to deploy 16 gunships for Libya

By George Parker in Deauville
Published: May 26 2011 20:06 | Last updated: May 26 2011 20:06

"France and Britain are putting 16 ground attack helicopters on standby to launch attacks on Muammer Gaddafi's regime in Libya amid claims in the west that his grip on power is weakening.

France has sent 12 Tiger and Gazelle helicopters on the carrier Tonnerre while British officials said on Thursday that David Cameron, UK prime minister, had signed off on the deployment of four Apache aircraft."

Evidently NATO is adding to their military options in an attempt to increase the pressure on Gadhafi to run to Venezuela.

Charley Noble

EDITOR'S CHOICE
Arab democracies win G8 aid pledge - May-26

Global insight: Rulers' fate hangs on militaries - May-26

Hundreds flee Yemeni capital as 40 more die - May-26

Tunisia tensions focus on 'British Gas' plant - May-26

Worried tourists turn backs on Egypt - May-26

In depth: Middle East protests - May-16

The Apaches, aboard HMS Ocean in the Mediterranean, would be operational within days, with an expectation that Nato could send them into action soon.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 11 - 07:13 PM

Hmmm....helicopter gunships to protect civilians.....Shurely shome mishtake!

Just watched the Question Time audience in Exeter sit in stoney silence, while an assortment of political puppets attempted to make a case for what is happening in Libya.
Their case basically amounted to "but there may have been a massacre of civilians"...they then misquoted Col Gadaffi in the same way that some posters here have done.
There was a huge cheer for the audience member who said that difference between our treatment of Libya, Syria, or Bahrain was OIL, not democracy or human rights.

"BTW Teribus, although I used to be a member of the Communist Party, I now realise that a lifetime of work in the "common good" without any sense of personal fulfillment, is as unsustainable as Capitalism itself."
I think I had better explain that point, by "personal fulfillment" I do not mean the accumulation of personal wealth.
Most of the really rich people I have encountered are the least personally fulfilled.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lighter
Date: 26 May 11 - 08:05 PM

How does interfering with Gaddafi's long established and dependable oil exportations help the greedy capitalists who are supposedly running the show?

I've been asking this question since the beginning, but no one seems to have an answer. All they "know" is that "it's about the oil!" Period.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 May 11 - 09:04 PM

Gaddafi might have stayed in power with the support of the international community if he had waited out the peaceful protests, or even made some minor concessions. But he didn't. He decided that a military response was called for to suppress peaceful protest, backed up with unleashing his secret police to kidnap, interrogate and torture the protest leaders.

So it goes.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 May 11 - 09:14 PM

Because, Ake, helicopters can get much closer to the ground--and ensure, therefore that their fire is accurate.   So less danger to civilians.

There is of course more danger to the helicopters and their crews than to the crews of planes higher up.

So those against Western involvement in Libya can start right now with their "I told you so" whines for the--inevitable over time--casualties to Western military participants.



Which is why the US should jump back in fully--to shorten the time frame dramatically.

As I said earlier, time to lance this boil.

Particularly since the rebels are running low on funds.

And the US has not even recognized their provisional government--I gather because of complications in Congress.

Seems a pretty flimsy excuse to me.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lighter
Date: 26 May 11 - 10:06 PM

I forgot something about State Socialism: the imposition of one's educational training and occupation by bureaucrats who have to meet a quota.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 27 May 11 - 07:38 AM

Lighter ....I did mention further up the thread, the fact that Col Gadaffi was about to tear up a multi billion oil rights contract with BP, shortly before the insurgency started.

I suppose we decided that it would be easier to use the insurgency as a pretext to kill or remove Col Gadaffi and his supporters than agree to the conditions required by his oil ministry.

Ex CIA man writes in todays Times on the "Arab Spring" and how we fail to understand the situation
"Mr Scheuer said that the cause of violent extremism was undimmed, despite claims that the Arab Spring demonstrated its rejection. "We in the West have come away from the Egypt experience thinking democracy is on the march there. I doubt it. We have listened to the folks who we agree with, and say the things we want to hear."

He said that US/UK foreign policy and Western intervention defined its relationship with the Muslim world. "There are almost 900 pages of primary sources on bin Laden — sermons, speeches, etc ... There is almost nothing in there about waging a war against the West for its freedoms or liberty or gender equality or drinking alcohol.

"It is support for Israel, support for the Saudi police state, it's our presence in the Arab peninsula, it's support for the Russians in the Islamic Caucuses.

"There is no more effective recruiter for al-Qaeda than the status quo of American foreign policy." Full article


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lighter
Date: 27 May 11 - 08:44 AM

>"We have listened to the folks who we agree with, and say the things we want to hear."

Yeas, but who doesn't?

It's true that OBL didn't care how much booze we drink in the West or how many women vote. And it's equally true that the claim that he attacked the West because he "hated our freedoms" is the truth dumbed down to caricature.

However, opposition to Israel, the Saudi regime, and the Western presence in Arabia, are just specific manifestations of what Al- Qaida really wants. (Even its opposition to the Russians seems based on the jihad mentality as much as on any political idealism.)

What Al-Qaida wants is a Muslim Caliphate in Eurasia and eventually everywhere. That's how they read the Koran, and they read it that way partly because they're angry, violent people - including some genuine sadists like OBL - looking for God's permission to express their own violent aggressions. The honest ones really think they're doing God's work by scourging the infidel. (You don't blow yourself up or crash into a skyscraper just because you're bored or perverse.)

There's no way to know whether Al-Qaida will wax or wane, or how often. Its declared enemies have to make whatever defensive choices they think will be most effective. And they can be wrong. That's life in the swamp.

The same principle goes for the outcome of the "Arab spring." There's no telling where it will go.

As for BP's oil deal with G, his threat to "tear it up" (if he made it) sound like a demand to renogotiate. Deals are renogotiated all the time. Why should he cut off his best customers? If oil had been the "real" issue, NATO would have attacked anyway, rebels or no rebels. Where's the evidence that an attack, with serious political risks in the Arab world, was even being planned? And if the rebels were the deciding factor, they were the deciding factor. That's good enough for me.

Complicated political events (like a NATO attack) don't stem from one or two reductionist causes like greedy capitalists *or* selfless idealism.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 27 May 11 - 08:46 AM

I note you fail to men