BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 15 May 11 - 10:12 AM

Bobad....don't worry, I dont think a few dozen kids will stop these murderous assassins.

They are what we call collateral damage......this is nice war, sanitised, just like the movies.....when our boys fly back to base, the fairies come and put all the little arms legs and heads back together again.
.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 11 - 11:06 AM

Ake, unfortunately the citizens of Libya don't share your admiration of Col(self proclaimed) Gaddafi, that's why they are willing to sacrifice their lives to get rid of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 May 11 - 11:52 AM

Damn, I have to agree with Akenaton.

If the Libyan people want to overthrow their established government, it's up to them.

As I recollect the words used at the time of the alleged "threat to murder civilians" the actual threat was to convict and to execute those who had risen against the established government. Normal enough.

Money benefits of Gadaffi to the people of his country. Fact. Learn to live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 15 May 11 - 12:26 PM

When millions rose against the established government of the United States and fought against it through four years of war, Washington made no threats of postwar executions.

And, in fact, except for the commander of Andersonville prison for war crimes (the justice of which is disputed) there were none. Rebel soldiers were not only allowed to go home in peace, they were allowed to keep their personal weapons.

Execution of political enemies is not "normal enough."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 11 - 12:49 PM

Those who are against the UN intervention seem to forget that the revolt began as a peaceful protest in which unarmed civilians were set upon and murdered by Gaddafi's goons and helicopter gunships and were forced to take up arms in self defense. Once that die was cast there was no turning back as large numbers of civilians would have been butchered by the tyrant. As it stands he has lost all legitimacy as the leader of Libya, in the eyes of the world and the International Criminal Court which will likely issue a warrant for his arrest by the end of the month. This will effectively make it impossible for him to escape into exile, thus sealing his fate.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 May 11 - 01:39 PM

Oh FFS bobad.

Demonstration illegal (under local law)

Government police say "go home".

Demonstrators say "no".

Government troops say "go home".

Demonstrators say "no".

Government does as UK did at Peterloo or US did at Kent State, or US federal government did in 1792.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 11 - 01:57 PM

So Richard, are you saying that governments have the right to slaughter their citizenry for the act of peaceful assembly? Do you defend that right?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 15 May 11 - 02:02 PM

A step further... the right to peaceful assembly for any reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 11 - 02:14 PM

all foreign troops should withdraw from libya,
all this talk about protecting peoples rights is hypocritical crap, no one bothers invading countries like Zimbabwe, or Chile[ when it was under pinochet]

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 11 - 02:54 PM

No one is ever going to be able to say for sure whether the numbers who will have been killed because of outside intervention in Libya when the conflict is over is greater than the number who would otherwise have died.

In many historical precedents the number killed because of outside intervention has arguably been far higher - Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, for example. In others the reverse applies - Sierra Leone, possibly in the endgame of Bosnia.

In the case of Libya it's impossible even to guess since the numbers are still building up.

One thing is for certain - we should always assume that the people involved in organising the killing (on both sides) are likely to be telling us lies.

There are two alternatives. One is to continue and escalate the bombing in the hope that at time it will achieve the desired result. The other is to agree to a ceasefire from both sides and try to negotiate an acceptable result.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 15 May 11 - 04:28 PM

I would agree with that Mr McGrath, unfortunately on our part it is now about not losing face.
I feel certain that they will bomb Col Gadaffi and his family to pieces and if necessary many of his supporters.

The "protection of civilians" was simply a smoke screen for regime change....we care nothing for international law or peoples rights.

As always might is right, I feel disgusted and ashamed of our hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 15 May 11 - 04:52 PM

Unfortunately, international relations are impossible without a certain amount of hypocrisy.

Should NATO or the U.S. have interfered in Rwanda?

Any answer will open somebody to the charge of hypocrisy or else breach of international law or morality.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 May 11 - 09:05 PM

"Early on Friday, alliance jets struck what NATO said was a command-and-control bunker in the eastern frontline town of Brega, but the government claimed that the building was actually a guest house and that 11 imams had died in the attack, while 40 others were injured.

A Dutch engineer told Sky News that he had helped build the guest house and the underground bunker for Gaddafi in 1988, and that the bunker was meant to be a communications hub."

The point being that Gadhafi is quite capable of planting innocent civilians in his guest houses/command & communications bunkers. Richard, you might make a reply with regard to "I've told you so" post above. But, what the fuck, you're mind's made up.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 15 May 11 - 09:36 PM

And those "guests" were less than "human shields." They were sacrificial propaganda items. G knew well that in event of war, all of his C & C HQs would undoubtedly be hit.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 May 11 - 01:11 AM

So several clerics have been killed--certainly a tragedy. And what is Richard's reaction?    Is he sorry for the loss of life?    Not precisely.    He seems in fact overjoyed.

Hard to tell if he's happier--knowing his attitude toward religion--that clerics have been killed--or that he gets a chance to jump up and down yelling:   "I told you so."

Either way his behavior is remarkably close to that of a perfect slimeball.   Who knows, maybe a bit of religion in his life might improve the situation. He obviously needs something.

Somewhat remarkable, considering the reputation lawyers already have with the general public, that he would want to confirm the stereotype.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 May 11 - 02:05 AM

I'd like, Ron, people to behave legally.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 16 May 11 - 03:23 AM

"Should NATO or the U.S. have interfered in Rwanda?

Gadaffi was not planning genocide, he was dealing with an internal armed insurgency.
He behaved exactly as Cameron would behave if a section of the UK population took up arms and threatened his government.

Whether you like to admit it or not lighter, this was opportunism on the part of the West, to rid themselves of someone whom they find troublesome.......Regime change by force...as Richard says,
illegal under the UN charter.

However, the even bigger mistake is becoming apparent, as the Islamists take advantage of their new "democracy" all over the region.
Israel shot and killed many unarmed protesters on their "border" yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 16 May 11 - 04:31 AM

"Gadaffi was not planning genocide, he was dealing with an internal armed insurgency.

He behaved exactly as Cameron would behave if a section of the UK population took up arms and threatened his government."

Not quite borne out by either time line or what was stated by Muammar Gaddafi was it Akenaton.

1: First there was no armed insurrection only peaceful protest as there had been in Tunisia and in Egypt

2: Second Gaddafi turned his troops on his own population and when they looked doubtful about shooting down unarmed civilians Gaddafi engaged the services of mercenaries to do the killing for him

3: When this occured large sections of his armed forces deserted and the "people" raided the massive armouries to get weapons in order to defend themselves.

In short Gadafi started the killing and the UN was asked to step in.

All perfectly legal Richard - ANYTHING THE UN JOINTLY DECIDES AND AGREES TO DO IS LEGAL.

But then that is the trouble with the legal profession they get confused law has got nothing whatsoever to do with justice or what is right - Law is simply law.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 16 May 11 - 05:37 AM

Christian civilians being butchered daily in the new "democratic" Egypt" (today's Times)

Israelis kill Palestinian unarmed protesters on their "border" (today's Times)

When are we sending in the drones?

Why Libya?.....Regime change in the hope of securing oil rights....pure and simple......and illegal.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 11 - 07:18 AM

"...considering the reputation lawyers already have with the general public,"

As they say, it's ninety eight percent of lawyers that give the other two a bad name.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 11 - 07:18 AM

According to the reports I've seen, the slaughtered imams were in the house next door to the one with "the bunker".

What's the difference between a bunker and an air-raid shelter anyway?

It occurs to me that while it's possible that the stories we are being given about children's playgrounds being placed as human shields might be true, it's equally possible that such stories are being put out as cover for anticipated incidents where children are liable to be killed by misdirected bombings.

Back in the First Gulf War there was the case where a shelter in Baghdada was destroyed by US "smart bombs", and it was at first asserted that it was a military command site and that those killed were military personnel. In fact it appears that the signals identified by "intelligence" were from a site 300 yards away, and the shelter was being used by hundreds of civilians, as it had been in the war against Iran. 408 civilians were killed on that occasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 16 May 11 - 07:30 AM

NATO was already getting oil from Libya. If human rights were not an issue, why rock the boat with needless military involvement?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Keith A
Date: 16 May 11 - 07:37 AM

"the stories we are being given about children's playgrounds being placed as human shields might be true, it's equally possible that such stories are being put out as cover"

Would Andrew Gilligan conspire to do that McG.?

By Andrew Gilligan, in Tripoli 8:00PM BST 14 May 2011
Even for an Arab dictator, it is an unusually cynical variant of the "human shield" gambit. On the roof of his Tripoli command bunker, Colonel Gaddafi has installed a children's fairground.

Forty feet away from the crater made on Thursday by a NATO bomb, young boys and girls played happily on a roundabout shaped like a giant tea set.

We had been brought deep inside Gaddafi's leadership compound, which takes up at least a full square mile of Tripoli city centre, to witness what the regime called "Nato's madness" in attacking women and children.

But the trip succeeded only in showing that if anyone has put civilians in harm's way, it is the government of Libya. Also near the top of the bunker, which is covered with grass, civilians have been brought to live in tents, ready to sacrifice themselves for the good of their leader.
(Picture too)http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8513982/Tripoli-despatch-Nato-tightens-squeeze-on-Gaddafi.h

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 11 - 07:43 AM

That really was me, but link no good.
Picture here.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1387454/We-bomb-Gaddafi-says-UK-general-tyrants-hideout-childrens-playground.html

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 11 - 07:55 AM

From Al Jazeera:

"The International Criminal Court's chief prosecutor has sought arrest warrants for Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, his son, Saif al-Islam, and another Libyan official on war crimes charges.

Luis Moreno-Ocampo will hand a 74-page dossier of evidence to a three-judge panel at the court in the Hague, the Netherlands, on Monday.

They will decide whether the case is strong enough for them to confirm crimes against humanity charges, and issue international arrest warrants.

"We are almost ready for trial," Moreno-Ocampo said in a statement earlier. "The office collected good and solid evidence to identify [those] who bear the greatest responsibility."

The third official named was Abdullah Senussi, Gaddafi's intelligence chief.

Moreno-Ocampo said that Muammar Gaddafi had personally ordered attacks on Libyan civilians. He described Saif al-Islam as Libya's "de facto prime minister". Senussi was the "executioner" of the regime's campaign against its opponents, he said.

"The office gathered direct evidence about orders issued by Muammar Gaddafi himself, direct evidence of Saif al-Islam organising the recruitment of mercenaries, and direct evidence of the participation of al-Senussi in the attacks against demonstrators," said Moreno-Ocampo.

Moreno-Ocampo's investigation into potential human rights violations has spanned several countries and involved sorting through around 1,500 documents, Al Jazeera's Rory Challands said.

But the two-and-a-half months it has taken to come up with a petition for arrest warrants is a "heartbeat in international justice," he added.

On Monday, Italian foreign minister Franco Frattini said Gaddafi was looking for a "suitable place" to find exile.

"Messages have been arriving from the regime's restricted circle," he said. "Certain [members] have spoken under cover and are beginning to say that Gaddafi is looking for an honourable way out," he added."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 11 - 08:03 AM

So what do you who have been defending the regime's actions against the "armed insurgents" have to say about that?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 May 11 - 08:09 AM

Continued access to Libyan oil is certainly one factor in this drama but as others have pointed out there was no problem with Western access to Libyan oil before the protests and armed insurrection. In fact access to oil in the short run is jeopardized by UN/NATO intervention, at least as long as there is a stalemate. The market price for Libyan oil will not change, regardless of who governs Libya, as that is set by the world oil market (and the oil speculators).

It's possible that foreign oil companies will get a better deal afterwards from a new government. Or not.

It's also possible that a greater share of the oil revenue will be channeled to economic development projects and social programs rather than lining the pockets of Gadhafi and his family. Or not.

The Rebels appear to be in control of Brega again this morning. So it goes.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 11 - 09:25 AM

Kids in London used to play on bomb sites.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 16 May 11 - 09:35 AM

McGrath says .... "Kids in London used to play on bomb sites" ... in fact I recall a song by Duncan Browne called "On the Bombsite" which he recalls fond memories when he was a child playing on the bombsites.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 16 May 11 - 02:39 PM

Apparently neither Libya nor the USA have signed up the War Crimes Tribuneral.

Just heard that Col Gadaffis compound has been hit by five huge bombs
So much for "care for civilians"

It is quite obvious that Gadaffi will be killed and anyone else who is anywhere near him.
Yet other states are killing protesters all around him

Thank fuck it wont be long till Scotland is free from the warmongering bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 11 - 02:49 PM

I was a kid in London who played on bomb sites.
I do not see the relevance.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 11 - 03:51 PM

I was referring to this in Andrew Gilligan's report: "Forty feet away from the crater made on Thursday by a NATO bomb, young boys and girls played happily..."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 16 May 11 - 04:04 PM

I reacted to McGrath's post .... it sparked that song from deep in my memory ... just a touch of music revelance to this thread ... after all, the Madcat is basically a music website.

anyway

on with the arguments and debating.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 16 May 11 - 04:07 PM

Oooops ... I meant relevance, not revelance .... just wanted to make a correction before some tight ass tries to slam dunk me with that one.

biLL   ... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 11 - 05:20 PM

Childrens' playgrounds placed on top of U boat pens.
That would be equivalent to what we see here.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 11 - 06:31 PM

The thing is, what "we see herre" is never the whole picture, and can't be. We can only speculate about many significant details.

For example, was that children's roundabout which was mentioned placed there after the bombing started, or has it been there since a time when there was no expectation that foreign countries, which at that time were friendly, would soon be carrying out bombing raids?   We just don't have that kind of information.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 May 11 - 07:00 PM

Newsflash: Blackwater is going into Libya to help the rebels.

The U.S. doesn't like Gadafi and they want another dictator in there that they can do
business with.

As Hillary says, "regime change".

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 May 11 - 09:14 PM

"Blackwater is going into Libya to help the rebels."

Blackwater or whatever they renamed themselves goes where the big bucks flow. I do wonder who is paying them in advance.

Actually I think Blackadder should be sent in.

Akenaton-

"Thank fuck it wont be long till Scotland is free from the warmongering bastards."

Good luck on that, but watch out for them drones.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 May 11 - 12:06 AM

"another dictator".      Drivel--from one of our most dependable sources.    Yes folks, another brilliant leftist observation.

Blissfully free, as always, from logic, evidence, and facts.

Nice to know some things don't change.




And by the way, if Blackwater is to be employed, let's have a source on this scoop. My understanding is that it is a possibility, not a fact.

I will defer to anybody with a good source on the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 May 11 - 02:48 AM

McG, I tend to agree with you on this thread, but I think you are wrong about this.
Gilligan said, ""This is a place of recreation, a public park where the people of Tripoli often come," insisted Moussa Ibrahim, the government spokesman. But this "public park" is reached by passing through no fewer than four concentric rings of 15-foot blast walls, checkpoints and sentry towers. Heavily armed guards stand around the outermost perimeter, moving on any passer-by who might mistake the place for somewhere to throw a frisbee. "

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 17 May 11 - 03:23 AM

Ron Davis....would you be prepared to accept bets on the outcome of the soon to be held elections in the new "democratic" Egypt.

And, if the West succeeds in assasinating Col Gadaffi,have you any idea who or what will replace him?

Remember how we were assured that the Brotherhood had"no intention of contesting future elections"
Well those elections are being rushed through and guess which is the most organised and popular faction?
The liberal Democrats?.....wrong!
The "liberal" Conservatives?....wrong!
The Socialist Party of Egypt?....wrong!

We told you so!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 17 May 11 - 07:33 AM

No matter what government is elected it will have been chosen by the people, a right they have fought for and won.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 17 May 11 - 08:22 AM

What, exactly, would it prove if (and AFAIK it is only *if*)
"Xe Services" (formerly known as "Blackwater") "is going into Libya to help the rebels"?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 May 11 - 09:10 AM

Ake-

We are talking about Libya--only.

If you would take off your blinders and read a bit, you'd see there are all sorts of indications the Libyans are in fact headed in the right direction--at least the rebels are.    The regime's schools were closed in Benghazi; they now have volunteers staffing the schools.   They have volunteers as traffic cops.   Volunteers as garbage collectors.

They are trying their best to put a government together.   And there is no dictator.

Gadhafi will likely soon be under indictment from the International Criminal Court, a branch of the UN, for crimes against his own people.

His reaction:   Libyra does not recognize this court.

Please tell us all the wonderful things Gadhafi has done and explain why a huge chunk of his own people want him gone.






Look, a very large number of the rebels are intellectuals. I would think you would identify with them.

Exactly what do you have against them?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 May 11 - 09:57 AM

"Libya does not.."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 May 11 - 08:48 AM

NATO announced this morning that its bombers had sunk eight Libyan warships last night in Tripoli Harbor. Here's the story from Al Jazeera: Click here for story

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 11 - 03:24 AM

Poster appears to be akenaton

---

No one can still be denying that this is simply about regime change.

These ships were obviously at anchor, not taking part in ending the insurrection and probably were partially crewed.

Simply murder,as cold blooded as the daily shooting of unarmed protesters in Syria.

I wonder if, when the Muslim Brotherhood take control of Egypt, will the penny drop in the minds to ordinary folks in USA, UK and Mudcat, that we have been duped again......and led by donkeys!

And Charley, maybe NATO will aim their drones at Westminster!!
Aye that WILL be right. It will be classified as an insurgency against the UK government and Crown.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 May 11 - 09:32 AM

akenaton-

We're not going to agree on which side to support in Libya. But so far it seems unlikely that NATO will be targeting Westminster or even Glasgow. When they do, I'm prepared to weigh the arguments put forth by either side.

I don't consider soldiers, sailors, or aviators of the Gadhafi regime in the same category as "unarmed protesters" or "innocent civilians." By their recent actions such as mining harbors and indiscriminate shelling of residential urban areas they have placed themselves in the category of NATO targets.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 21 May 11 - 09:59 AM

>When they do, I'm prepared to weigh the arguments put forth by either side.

So what are you doing on this thread?

Some people...!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 May 11 - 11:00 AM

I'm trying to think if there are any acts of war which not be claimed by our leaders as justified ways of "protecting civilians". They already appear to have used cluster bombs.