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BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011

Ron Davies 27 May 11 - 10:41 PM
Ron Davies 27 May 11 - 10:42 PM
Charley Noble 28 May 11 - 01:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 May 11 - 03:44 PM
Ron Davies 28 May 11 - 05:22 PM
Ron Davies 28 May 11 - 05:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 May 11 - 05:52 PM
akenaton 28 May 11 - 07:41 PM
Ron Davies 29 May 11 - 07:18 PM
Charley Noble 29 May 11 - 09:03 PM
bobad 29 May 11 - 09:19 PM
akenaton 30 May 11 - 03:14 AM
akenaton 30 May 11 - 05:38 AM
McGrath of Harlow 30 May 11 - 06:21 AM
Ron Davies 30 May 11 - 10:28 AM
Ron Davies 30 May 11 - 10:30 AM
McGrath of Harlow 30 May 11 - 02:07 PM
Stringsinger 30 May 11 - 03:17 PM
bobad 30 May 11 - 09:45 PM
bobad 30 May 11 - 10:11 PM
Lighter 31 May 11 - 07:21 AM
Charley Noble 31 May 11 - 07:50 AM
akenaton 31 May 11 - 12:50 PM
Lighter 31 May 11 - 04:09 PM
Charley Noble 31 May 11 - 05:36 PM
Ron Davies 31 May 11 - 11:40 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Jun 11 - 05:54 AM
akenaton 01 Jun 11 - 03:56 PM
Stringsinger 01 Jun 11 - 04:37 PM
Lighter 01 Jun 11 - 05:01 PM
bobad 01 Jun 11 - 05:05 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Jun 11 - 05:16 PM
akenaton 01 Jun 11 - 06:43 PM
Ron Davies 01 Jun 11 - 11:18 PM
Teribus 02 Jun 11 - 03:11 AM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Jun 11 - 07:03 AM
Teribus 02 Jun 11 - 12:47 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Jun 11 - 02:19 PM
bobad 02 Jun 11 - 02:33 PM
bobad 02 Jun 11 - 02:37 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Jun 11 - 03:11 PM
Lighter 02 Jun 11 - 04:40 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Jun 11 - 05:10 PM
Charley Noble 05 Jun 11 - 10:56 AM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Jun 11 - 09:25 AM
Charley Noble 06 Jun 11 - 11:45 AM
akenaton 06 Jun 11 - 12:05 PM
The Sandman 06 Jun 11 - 01:04 PM
bobad 06 Jun 11 - 01:19 PM
bobad 06 Jun 11 - 01:20 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 May 11 - 10:41 PM

Ake--

From your list of the West's sins, it does not appear Libya is on it.

Good reason, if true:    in Libya the West is standing against a tyrant, for once---and also not invading.

For the n'th time, we are there at the fervent entreaties of fighters against a tyranny--rebels whose main complaint is that we are not doing enough, not that we are engaged in an imperialist campaign---since we are not engaged in such a campaign.   Except to armchair socialists who recognize nothing outside their cartoon Marxist world.

You were also going to tell us what you have against all the intellectuals who make us a large part of the rebels.

Can't understand how you have forgotten to address this point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 May 11 - 10:42 PM

"who make up a large part"


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 May 11 - 01:50 PM

Another update with regard to the desperate battle for Misurata Airport from Al Jazeera in this excellent video: click here for report!

The control tower looks undamaged as well as the runway and some service should be able to be restored shortly.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 11 - 03:44 PM

Pedantic point: Whether someone is "an intellectual" isn't really that relevant. Intellectuals are just as capable of being on the wrong side as anyone else. There were intellectuals among those supporting Hitler and Stalin, for example.

I'd be very surprised if you couldn't find intellectuals among Gaddafi's supporters as well as among his opponents.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 May 11 - 05:22 PM

Far more intellectuals among the rebels.   The reason is obvious---Gaddhafi has strict censorship.    You might be aware that intellectuals like to express themselves---or possibly you're not aware of this.   In which case you might want to do some reading--rather than sounding off from ignorance.

You might even read this thread--including the quote I cite by an intellectual who points out one of the problems is that Gaddhafi resents the idea that anything good could come from another source than him.

In his mind and those of his supporters, he embodies Libya.   The rebels beg to disagree.   And that is a real source of discord--to put it mildly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 May 11 - 05:32 PM

In fact Gaddhafi is much like Hitler in that regard:    Hitler was thought to embody Germany as Gaddhafi Libya.

And the facile assertion that some intellectuals supported Hitler is amazingly meaningless.

As I recall, some intellectuals--to say the least--left Germany rather quickly.   You might want to read some history on this point. Compare the number who stayed with the number who left--and their prominence.

And by and large those who stayed were sorry they had done so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 11 - 05:52 PM

I really wish that you could rely on intellectuals to be on the right side - maybe you could find out which was the right side by counting up intellectuals...

However I'm afraid there has never been any shortages of intellectuals among those promoting the nastiest ideologies.

Of course it is always possible to define the term intellectual so that it is restricted to those with whom we agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 28 May 11 - 07:41 PM

Ron.... I think you would be wise to stick to politics....and leave philosophy,satire, irony etc, to Mr McGrath.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 May 11 - 07:18 PM

"promoting the nastiest ideologies"

Another meaningless statement. Congratulations.



First, how many Jewish intellectuals were promoting Nazism in the 3rd Reich?   And how many fled Germany?

Secondly, you need to research the term "Gleichschaltung".    In the 3rd Reich it was crystal clear what ideology was to be promoted.   Others were unerwunscht.   And this was also clear. If you think intellectuals were happy with Gleichschaltung, you need to do a lot more research.

Only if you stretch the term "intellectual" way beyond any rational meaning to include Goebbels, Rosenberg ,etc and the bureaucrats under them does your assertion have any chance--and then it is a caricature.

Which is unsurprising.

Thirdly you need to study the term "inner migration".

Then perhaps you will be possibly able to make a reasonable statement.

If you have any interest in doing so--which at this point is questionable.


Added to which I note you have not addressed the crux of the problem--which is, as I said, that intellectuals want to express themselves--not parrot the line of the rulers.

In Libya today, they have the opportunity to express themselves--but only under the Benghazi government, not under the Gaddafi regime.   So a large number have voted with their feet---just as a huge number voted with their feet in Germany--or indeed were forced out.   With well-known benefits to places like Hollywood in the 30's.

There is a huge list of expatriate intellectuals who left Germany and the Nazi-dominated parts of Europe in the 30's.

The list of those who would be considered "intellectuals" and worked for the 3rd Reich is much shorter.

As anybody who has any grasp of history should know.


Unless that person is an ideological warrior.    Which seems to be a likely answer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 May 11 - 09:03 PM

I do wonder what is happening in Libya while the fires burn above but my desktop computer died today and I'm stuck with my Notebook for a day or two.

Anyone else willing to post an update?

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 29 May 11 - 09:19 PM

For one thing Charley, it seems that the Russians have realized that Gaddafi was not going to win and have switched allegiance, saying now that he must go and offering to negotiate his departure.

Also more than 100 community and tribal leaders from Libya have met with members of the opposition National Transitional Council at a conference in Turkey, in a bid to show a united front against Gaddafi.

Most of the tribal leaders who gathered in Istanbul on Saturday and Sunday, were from the powerful Warfalla clan based in Baniwalid, a city in western Libya.

The delegates were calling for an end to the violence in Libya and the departure of Libyan leader Gaddafi and his sons.

The meeting has been billed as a possible game-changer for the Gaddafi government as the Warfalla are said to have been supporting Gaddafi militarily, especially around the western city of Misurata.

source Al Jazeera


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 30 May 11 - 03:14 AM

"Straes in the wind"

Just been listening to BBC radio...a senior analyst reporting from Cairo says that elections sould be held back from the muted date of Sept 11 as the Islamist parties (Muslim brotherhood) are extremely well organised and will win by a landslide.

This will tend to be the pattern for all of the so called Arab Spring countries......the creation of an Islamist axis, as planned.

I suppose that in itself is "democracy"......if there is such a thing in reality.

"The people" is indeed a beast of muddy brain, who fights for his chains, rather than be free!


Thomasso Campagnella

THE PEOPLE is a beast of muddy brain
That knows not its own strength, and therefore stands
Loaded with wood and stone; the powerless hands
Of a mere child guide it with bit and rein;
One kick would be enough to break the chain,         5
But the beast fears, and what the child demands
It does; nor its own terror understands,
Confused and stupefied by bugbears vain.
Most wonderful! With its own hand it ties
And gags itself—gives itself death and war         10
For pence doled out by kings from its own store.
Its own are all things between earth and heaven;
But this it knows not; and if one arise
To tell this truth, it kills him unforgiven.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 30 May 11 - 05:38 AM

According to an article in todays Times, calling for Gadaffi to be quickly "finished off", gangs in Benghazi are already murdering anyone associated with the regime, law and order is breaking down amongst the insurgents and they are splitting into factions.

Fundamentalists 1......"Democracy" 0 ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 May 11 - 06:21 AM

The list of those who would be considered 'intellectuals' and worked for the 3rd Reich is much shorter.

But quite long enough to confirm what I said. As for the list of intellectuals who expressed support for Stalin...

As for: "promoting the nastiest ideologies" Another meaningless statement. The meaning seems pretty clear to me, and I suspect to most people.

However all this is drifting the thread a bit too far. I think the intellectual status of the people involved is not particularly relevant.

Here is a newspaper comment piece which does seem more relevant to me - Why no mention of a ceasefire for Libya, Obama?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 May 11 - 10:28 AM

"what I said".    That is, to those who are determined to find an excuse not to intervene in Libya, any unsupported statement will do.

"monitoring mechanism".    Charmingly naive.

And how long will this be necessary, with the autocrat still in power?

Those who are not ideological warriors--and lazy to boot--- will see that some Western interventions are justified, and some are not.

If you are not an ideological warrior, who sees the threat of Western colonialism in every shadow, please cite just one example of a justified Western intervention in the Mideast.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 May 11 - 10:30 AM

And what Bobad says regarding Russia is particularly significant --and is supported also by solid sources like Reuters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 May 11 - 02:07 PM

The opening words of Resolution 1973, which is the legal basis for this action are "Demanding an immediate ceasefire".

The immediate threat to the people of Benghazi which prompted this resolution is no longer there. Saving civilians was the basis for the resolution. Continuing military intervention to bring about regime change was not envisaged in the resolution.

Nor does it seem to be particularly likely to bring about such change, without a level of escalation that would risk causing signifi8canmt civilian deaths, this time in Tripoli.

Complying with the UN resolution's demand for an immediate ceasefire on the part of NATO need not improve Gaddafi's chances of staying in power. In fact the negotiations could well make it easier for people on his side who want to get rid of him to do so. It might also provide a chance for the regime in Benghazi to strengthen itself for a possible renewal of the fighting, if the negotiations break down.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 May 11 - 03:17 PM

Saving civilians is a ruse. What the administration wants is regime change under the guise of protecting civilians so to do business with a dictator they like.

What's the proof? The US is supporting dictators and citizen abuse and killing in Saudi Arabia, Syria, Yemen, Bahrain, Indonesia, Palestine and other hot spots that have dictatorial control.

You will never introduce democracy or democratic values into a country at the point of a gun.

The only exception, some would say, would be the American Revolution against England. Yes, but do we have real democracy in the U.S. today?

Hasn't America become a hegemonic in its attempt at world domination?
Proof? American military bases across the world.

Does this provide security for the US?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 30 May 11 - 09:45 PM

"Eight senior officers who defected from Col Muammar Gaddafi's army have appealed to fellow soldiers to join them in backing the rebels.

One of the eight accused pro-Gaddafi forces of "genocide".

The men - who are said to include five generals - appeared at a news conference in Rome.

One of the generals who spoke to reporters in Rome, named as Oun Ali Oun, read an appeal to fellow soldiers and security officials to abandon the regime "in the name of the martyrs who have fallen in the defence of freedom".

He also denounced both "genocide" and "violence against women in various Libyan cities"

Another general, Melud Massoud Halasa, told reporters that Col Gaddafi's forces were "only 20% as effective" as they were before the rebellion, as "not more than 10" generals remained loyal to him.

Former Libyan Foreign Minister Abdel Rahman Shalgam, who now backs the rebels and appeared at the news conference, said a total of 120 soldiers had defected in recent days.

Since the start of the uprising in February dozens of army officers, government ministers, and diplomats have abandoned Col Gaddafi."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13596475


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 30 May 11 - 10:11 PM

"What is happening to our people has frightened us," said one officer, who identified himself as General Oun Ali Oun.

"There is a lot of killing, genocide ... violence against women. No wise, rational person with the minimum of dignity can do what we saw with our eyes and what he asked us to do."

Another officer, General Salah Giuma Yahmed, said Gaddafi's army was weakening day by day, with the force reduced to 20 per cent of its original capacity.

"Gaddafi's days are numbered," said Yahmed."

Al Jazeera


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lighter
Date: 31 May 11 - 07:21 AM

U.S. democacy is real, it's just far from perfect.

Libyan, Syrian, Saudi, etc., democracy is nonexistent.

So there's a difference.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 May 11 - 07:50 AM

So while we continue to debate international philosophy, Gadhafi's generals abandon his sinking ship. Anyone prefer to raise a fiddle tune?

Stringsinger-

Does the international military intervention in Bosnia fall into the same pattern, or was it a unique humanitarian intervention?

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 11 - 12:50 PM

Col Gadaffi is fighting an insurgency driven by Western arms and military strikes....regime change is the name of the game....Stringsinger is right, "protection of civilians" is a sham, we want to get someone in power whom we can deal with.

The lie is proved by the daily shooting of civilian protesters in Syria, Bahrain, and now Yemen.

The end result will not be Western "democracy", but a fundamentalist Islamic axis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lighter
Date: 31 May 11 - 04:09 PM

> The end result will not be Western "democracy", but a fundamentalist Islamic axis.

That could be, but it could have been anyway. Maybe it won't be. We'll see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 May 11 - 05:36 PM

"we want to get someone in power whom we can deal with.

Not a bad priority but I'm still not persuaded it's the only important one. And, sadly, there is no guarantee that Western powers will get a new government that they can deal with in a more business like way.

Akenaton-

Have you really nothing to say about Bosnia or does its recent history not fit conveniently into your analysis of NATO intervention?

Hey, we're all friends here, looking for insight!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 May 11 - 11:40 PM

WSJ. com, 31 May 2011:    Italy will be making millions of euros in urgently needed fuel supplies and cash available to the rebels.    "...billions of dollars of Libyan holdings inside Italy would be used as collateral."    This will happen "within weeks."

That should tip the balance against Gadhafi.

He should be gone by the end of summer--if not before.


So the amazingly naive suggestion of "monitoring" a settlement between Gadhafi and the rebels is a pathetic sideshow.    Fortunately.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 05:54 AM

No reason an immediate ceasefire, as required by Resolution 1973, should stop Italy doing that. Might even make it easier:

Acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations,

1. Demands the immediate establishment of a cease-fire and a complete end to violence and all attacks against, and abuses of, civilians...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 03:56 PM

UN human rights council reports......"War crimes have been committed by the Gadaffi regime and the insurgents"......as I reported yesterday.

I suppose we will be "protecting" Col Gadaffi's civilians and turning our smart bombs on the rebels!

Meanwhile the slaughter of civilians goes on elsewhere unabated.
Hillary says "oh I do wish they would stop it"!!!
Cameron just ignores it.....the fat, self-satisfied, arrogant cunt!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 04:37 PM

Charley Noble, the military solution in Bosnia was too "easy". Why is it that when there's a diplomatic problem to be solved the US and other power countries send in the military?
That problem in Bosnia is not fixed. It is a problem that has had historical magnitude in the cultural life of the people. This is where the term "Balkanization" comes from.

The problem with Bosnia is that there were atrocities on all sides including Serbs, Croats, and Bosnians.

The most poignant and best model for social change in a country that is wracked with violence is Egypt, although they may have compromised their revolution by handing over the governmental authority to the military, not capable of operating in a democratic fashion but a hierarchical one.

Gadaffi will be replaced probably with someone equally heinous as we see with Assad, Salleh, the Caliphate, and King Abdullah. The US is interested in bombing a foreign country only when the political leadership sees this action as "in their interest". It's a quick fix which puts the proverbial band-aid on an open wound.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 05:01 PM

> The US is interested in bombing a foreign country only when the political leadership sees this action as "in their interest".

Thank God. Would you have them do it just for the hell of it? Or for idealistic reasons that look like they're sure to backfire?

The nature of international relations makes governments act above all in their own perceived interests. They'd be crazy not to - though sometimes, like Hitler and Mussolini, they badly misperceive those interests.

If the interests of the US coincide with those of the Libyan rebels, both can benefit.

Many voices have called for Gaddafi to resign pecefully. He didn't do it bfore, and he's not doing it now that bombs are falling.

His personal pride is understandable, but he owes it to his country to quit. The fact that he's willing to kill thousands of his own people to stay in power is reprehensible.

You can't reason with people like G any more than you could reason with Hitler or Mussolini. You either let them do their thing or you try to stop them.

Sometimes, fortunately, it seems advantageous to try to stop them.

If you base your international decisions solely on how many people are less likely to be killed or what will create the least amount of destruction, you give the sociopaths a free hand.

Of course, no matter what you do somebody will suffer. Once the shooting starts, you can't escape it till it's over.

Some might recommend Ghandilike passive resistance to the Libyan rebels. Personally I wouldn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 05:05 PM

A well reasoned post there Lighter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 05:16 PM

There are more ways than one to skin a cat.

Continued bombing, while totally ignoring the requirement in Resolution for "an immediate ceasefire", is not the best way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 06:43 PM

Looks like we've just started another civil war chaps.

How can that be protecting civilians?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 11:18 PM

Lighter has it right on the suggestion of a Gandhi-like approach for the rebels.   Hitler offered the unsolicited advice to British officials in India that they should just shoot Gandhi and a few hundred others.    Gadhafi won't even need the advice--that approach just comes natural to him. After all, what else can you do about "rats" and traitors?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 11 - 03:11 AM

1. "Looks like we've just started another civil war chaps."

For a start Akenaton you cannot force a civil war on a population who are happy with their lot, you cannot force a civil war on a population that do not want one.

I would venture that if anyone instigated this "civil war" that you refer to it was Colonel Muammar Gaddafi when he started killing civilian protesters back in February and March this year.

"Another civil war"?? What other ones have "we" started??

2: "How can that be protecting civilians?"

How can what be protecting civilians?

- A civil war? You have the choice you either stand there on the street or sit in your home and let Gaddafi's troops kill you and your family, or you take up arms and fight back. The former course of action guarantees loss of life and family, the latter at least gives you a chance at survival.

- Maintaining a "No-Fly Zone"? Prevents attacks by the Gaddafi side on civilian populations and population centres, that certainly saves civilian lives.

- Destroying formations massed to attack civilian centres of population? Definitely saves civilian lives? How many civilians are currently being shelled and killed in Misrata today Akenaton?

- Destroying Gadafi's means to command and control his remaining armed forces and mercenaries? Makes it difficult for him to wage war on his civilian population.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 11 - 07:03 AM

Saying "you cannot force a civil war" is a bit like saying "you cannot trigger an avalanche".

"A population who are happy with their lot" would be an excellent thing to have in any country. But I'd suggest sadly there are relatively few countries where there is not a significant part of the population at any time that is not that happy with its lot.
...........................

Resolution 1973 was an emergency response to fears of an imminent massacre of civilians. Whether such a massacre was in fact imminent is something about which there will no doubt be disputes by historians in the future, but there is a reasonable case for arguing that it was, and that an immediate no fly zone with military action to halt the advance of government troops into Benghazi was required.

But that is a separate matter from continuing air raids to bring about regime change in Tripoli, and refusing to make any efforts to implement the UN demand for "an immediate ceasefire" which was also contained in Resolution 1973.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 11 - 12:47 PM

Cherry picking at UN Security Council Resolution 1973 will not help your case Kevin. Establishing and maintaining the No-Fly Zone was only one of the measures 1973 sanctioned, the main focus and it's over-riding concern was the protection of civilians in Libya.

Please correct me if I am wrong but I distinctly remember that within hours of 1973 being passed one of Gaddafi's spokesmen appeared on Television broadcasting that a ceasefire was going to be put into effect immediately - That never happened of course Gaddafi and his mercenaries continued to slaughter Libyan civilians without even the briefest of pauses to let the twat finish making his speech.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 11 - 02:19 PM

Ceasefires have to be implemented by both sides to be effective.

There appears to have been no attempt to hold Gaddafi to a ceasefire by offering to reciprocate. Such on offer would not have reduced the ability of Nato to carry out military attacks, unless Gaddafi actually did comply.

There is nothing cherry picking about pointing out that the demand for a ceasefire is the first and most basic of the things being called for in Resolution 1973.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jun 11 - 02:33 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jun 11 - 02:37 PM

A ceasefire for the purpose of negotiation, in this case, would be useless as Gaddafi says he is not leaving and the rebels say his and his family's departure are prerequisites for negotiation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 11 - 03:11 PM

A ceasefire during negotiations would mean that so long as negotiations continued there would be a ceasefire, and no civilians were being killed. Those were the key demands in Resolution 1973.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Jun 11 - 04:40 PM

While McGrath is correct in theory, the reality is that there's nothing to negotiate except how immediately and how far G will go into exile or (don't count on it) to prison to await trial.

G can end the bloodshed right now by making a simple ego-deflating announcement and joining one of his dictator pals in a place other than Libya, to live in luxury - until someone comes for him as they did Bin Laden or Mlosevic (your choice).

G's history of false ceasefires has already been mentioned. A real one would only give his military a breather to rebuild their communication systems while the pointless negotiating continues. (If he isn't leaving now, he won't leave when the heat is off.) It would also suggest to Gaddafi wanna-bes not that NATO is humane but that NATO is losing and indecisive. It could also boost G's popularity at home as the man that NATO couldn't break.

But perhaps this is all fantasy. Perhaps G is really a good guy who wants the best for his people, and he'd never in a million years take advantage. Perhaps this is all just a silly misunderstanding.

General ceasefires don't work until one side is actually ready to quit. That kind is called an "armistice."


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 11 - 05:10 PM

I can't see that "a breather to rebuild their communication systems" would be particularly helpful to the troops of the Tripoli regime. An effective embargo on reinforcement of weapons, would still be maintained, and a freeze on outside financial assets.

If there are people in the regime who would like to dispense with Gaddafi, which seems highly likely, that could well be easier to achieve during a ceasefire than while the bombs are falling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Jun 11 - 10:56 AM

Here's an update on a press conference held by the latest group of high ranking officers to defect from Gadhafi's army (Al Jazeera):

More than 100 military officials and soldiers have defected from Libya's armed forces in recent days, according to a group of eight military officers, as pressure mounts on leader Muammar Gaddafi to step down.

The high-ranking Libyan army officers appeared at a press conference in Italy on Monday, where they announced that they were part of a group of as many as 120 military officials and soldiers who defected from Gaddafi's side in recent days.

The hastily called news conference was organised by the Italian government for the the eight officers - five generals, two colonels and a major.

"What is happening to our people has frightened us," said one officer, who identified himself as General Oun Ali Oun.

"There is a lot of killing, genocide ... violence against women. No wise, rational person with the minimum of dignity can do what we saw with our eyes and what he asked us to do."


Of course, what they say may all be lies or maybe they were Hollywood actors. I'd like to think that the Gadhafi regime is coming apart at the seams as NATO pressure increases on Gadhafi to depart for Venezuela.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 09:25 AM

The point is, regardless of all that, there seem to be no indications of an imminent collapse of the regime. On the contrary, plenty of comments by the British government sources about there being no deadline on military involvement, as long as it takes etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 11:45 AM

McGrath-

All the talk about "no deadline" is just part of the NATO strategy for encouraging Gadhafi and his family to depart. Yes, "regime change" is also the unwritten agenda.

I'm willing to bet that Gadhafi leaves before the end of this month. Any takers?

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 12:05 PM

"Regime Change", is a lot more dangerous than Col Gadaffi.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 01:04 PM

yes i reckon its possible,he could still be there at the end of june. anyway he was good enough for the weSt for 40 years, and in my opinion has done less damage to libya than mugabe has done to zimbabwe.
I would say libya has improved under his regime, bet most libyans are better off than they were under king idris,
The west should not have interfered., still the west has made a lot of money in supplying arms and will undoubtedly get cheaper oil when gaddafi is eventually removed, if he is removed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 01:19 PM

It seems to me that those of you who believe that Libya is better off under the leadership of Gaddafi have very little regard for the opinion of the people of Libya.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 01:20 PM

Oh, and 600....yay!


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